BF10 Revisionist Westerns

Which film is the best revisionist western?  David has chosen The Wild Bunch and Gareth has chosen The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.  Will David be able to choose the category Most Killings?  Will Gareth be able to choose The Longest Title?!  The answer to both of those questions is absolutely not.  Who will be buried up on Death Hill and who will ride off into the sunset?  This town ain't big enough for the both of us!  

This episode contains spoilers - it is strongly recommended that you have seen both films.  The episode also contains one or two curse words.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Just a quick warning, this episode contains spoilers. It is strongly recommended that you watch both films being discussed. Also, we don't swear much, but there will be one or two curse words. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to Battleflips, where every episode my friend Gareth and I each choose a film within a predetermined genre to battle it out and establish which is battle.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

And my choice is the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, hereafter known as Jesse James.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

That bit at the end, hereafter known as Jesse James, I've never heard that before. I think you might have added that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I think I might have.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Why have you added that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I did like your comment the other day, the uh the assassination of Jesse James by the absurdly long title.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah. I've chosen the 1969, I think there is another one, the 1969 Sam Peck and Powell classic, um, The Wild Bunch. Which I don't think you had seen. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

I don't think so, no. I remember when I was a kid, um, I wasn't able to exactly um understand the difference between types of westerns, but I always felt there was kind of obvious westerns where there was good versus bad, and those are the ones that I wanted to see, and there were more kind of adult versions of westerns where it was a bit more nuanced, yeah, and I I just didn't have time for that. I I wanted something as a kid that was a lot more black and white, yeah, and was and was action-packed, and was like you say, very clear.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I remember as a kid, I'd heard that someone said that the searches was the best Western ever made, and it came on one day and I watched it, and I didn't understand why people thought it was any good whatsoever, because it was it wasn't like like you say, it wasn't like you were expecting.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, exactly. Um, but now now I've found that um, you know, watching those kind of things that I shied away from as a kid, uh they're a lot more interesting, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

The Wild Bunch versus the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford herein after known as Jesse James.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah. Um I mean it's I I like the fact that um they're from two different eras and yet connected somehow, you know? Yeah. Um so I normally when I'm going into uh recording an episode with you, I have a I have a reasonably good idea how it's gonna pan out.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

And I don't for this one.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Ah, that's interesting. I I watched the shall I just call it Jesse James for the minute. I watched Jesse James for the second time uh yesterday, and I wrote down what I think your categories are gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I wrote my I I I was literally gonna say, I think you're gonna guess all three of my categories.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Oh well, I've had a go. I got I think I've definitely got two of them. Um the third one I was a bit iffy about because you could go a few ways with the third one, but certainly the first two I think I think I'm solid on. I th I part of me was thinking that these two films are almost the antipathy of each other, almost, in the way that the show don't tell aspect of the Wild Bunch and the very much tell aspect of Jesse James, and then the sort of thoughtfulness and the artistry of Jesse James versus the action of Wild Bunch. So I think almost the Wild Bun Wild Bunch is a pretty film, still, still a beautiful film, I think. It's still beautifully made, but but I feel like each of our films has sort of shied away from the aspect that the other one does really well.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, all right, go on then, Sunshine. What's your first cinematography? Sorry, sorry, what's your first category that you're gonna choose?

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, I'm gonna I am gonna start off strong. And um Mr. Deacon's um cinematography. Um I mean to be to be honest, that from the first scene, I I was completely hooked. I I didn't really know much about this film when I first saw it. And from that first scene where it just sets the stage of Jesse James' life, where he's at, some of the shots are just you know, they're just gorgeous. I know I know that um he has these specific lenses that were used, they were called deaconizers after this film. Um, and it kind of brings the focus in the middle of the frame and yet blurs the outside, and it and it just evokes this kind of um it's almost like it's a memory or a faded photograph, and it just I don't know, it's almost almost has a surreal quality to it.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I thought the scene at the beginning where they were robbing the train and the lights came through the trees, um, and and it was Brad Pitt was silhouetted with a lantern at the side of the road and it at the side of the the track, and it was just um just beautiful. You could have freeze-framed any any part of that, and it could have been a picture on your wall, genuinely. It was absolutely um glorious, really nice, yeah. What do you think about the wild budge cinematography then?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

I I think it relied more on the actual setting that it was in. You know, there's a lot of like hills and caverns and and things like that, and the forts and the towns and stuff. I appreciate that maybe this lapses more into the direction, but the the you know, the way the cuts work and um um some of the quick cuts and action scenes, obviously, yeah. Um were very good. It it's not like um you've said this before, you know, sometimes we pick on something that's really terrible in the other person's film. Yeah, uh it certainly wasn't that. No.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Um I mean actually back in back in 1969. So I know that um the Wild Bunch got award nominations for its cinematography. Um Lucy and Ballards did the cinematography, and I think if you'd asked anybody back then, they would have said that it was it was wonderful cinematography. I don't think, like you say, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just think that uh what was your film 2007? I think that's that's quite late in filmmaking to come up with something that I haven't seen before. That's quite that's quite impressive. With the like you say with the lenses where he's putting like bashed up lenses over the top of good lenses or something, correct? Um just like you say, just mesmerizing the visuals were just just phenomenal. Yeah, I'm happy to yield on that because I I haven't seen anything like that, and I still haven't seen anything like it since, really. I don't know why, but um he's a he Deacons, he's he's done like the same year he did um No Country for Old Men. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, I just it's funny. I I just re-watched that about two weeks ago. Yeah, that's my god, what a film that is. My god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Um, yeah, good. Yeah, good start. Strong start, Gareth. Well done. Thank you. I was gonna start because I was gonna get it out of the way because I worry that you would accuse me of oh, we've already talked about that if it comes up later on, so I was gonna go with a finale. Um, but let's call it climax, the climax of the movie. So the Wild Bunch, the army have got Angel, they've been torturing him. William Holden tries as Pike tries to tries to buy Angel back, they say no. He goes and has an evening and gets drunk, and then you can just see him sat there wrapped in guilt about what's going on, no words, beautifully, absolutely like other films would have a whole exposition of um we've done something wrong here, we really need to go in there and sort it out. There's none of that. He just walks into the Gorch Brothers, he says, Let's go. They say, Why not? They get together, there's a sort of reservoir dogs moment. We see reservoir dogs have taken it off of the wild bunch, absolutely. They've all got their guns held a slightly different way, and they walk into this Mexican town, and then absolute hell breaks loose. And it's I I think it's of one of the greatest climaxes to any movie because you know they're gonna die. There is that butchcasting Sundance Kids thing about it where it's heartbreaking because um they know that they're that this is their end, um, but but to hell with it, give them hell, and uh and and the way in which it was filmed, the sort of the just majestically filmed, the the way you've got the speeded up bits, the slowed down bits, the just just the chaos, the the way in which they give you the chaos um of them killing an army, the four of them killing an army, is is just delightful.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Did you were you ever taken out of that scene from a realism perspective? And I'm also gonna throw in the the the the pretty terrible fake blood.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Well, I mean it's easy to show someone's skull blown off in 2007, isn't it? When you well, you know, you wanna you wanna send Andrew Dominic back to 1969 and see how he goes. Um I interestingly, the second time I watched it, I hate it, I keep bringing this second viewing back, but the second time I watched it, I found I was more I was I like the first time I watched it was a spectacle. The second time I watched it, I was very much with the characters, and I was very much, you know, I cried a little bit when I watched it at the end. I know that's unbelievable, but I got quite emotional. Um, particularly when you'll remember um William Holden, they tip up the table, they give each other a look, they're both bleeding like crazy, and he says, Come on, you lazy bastard, or something like that, and they turn around and they and they carry on. But that moment was like, Oh my god, that's that's really emotionally resonant, I think, because I was with them all the way, and they're they're like old guys who who are trying to cope with a changing world, um, and they they've just decided to go out fighting for something fighting for their team, you know, fighting for a member of their team. That whole sort of theme of trust and loyalty, and it just um yeah, I it really touched me actually. So I didn't the second time, I don't know about the first time because that's quite a while ago, but the second time I didn't come out of it, I just absolutely um drank it up like a sucker that I am. You did then, so you felt it was too much?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

My snarky little text to you about you know not enough shooting in the wild. Yeah. My god, mate. This talk about gun fetishy. I mean, it's um there is so much shooting. I I even had to turn the TV down at s at different stages because it it it was so overwhelming. Um I mean I I can get on board with the final scene and and the um the poetry behind it and the message behind it. Um I I I did get taken out of it a a little bit by the kind of um and I can I can see this as part of the cell. The it's almost like operatic in a way. Um you know, some of the deaths and the way that it happened, and it's maybe metaphoric and that kind of thing. Um, but I I did just find that you know they killed what whatever two or three hundred Mexicans there, yeah. Between the four of them, probably. Um and yet, you know, all of these Mexicans you know could hardly lay the finger on them, you know, for ten minutes or so.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

The way the way they made that more believable was having the machine gun there. If without the machine gun, it wouldn't have lasted very long.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I I suppose contrasting that with Jesse James and the finale, very different. Yeah. Um but yeah, I mean it it it more goes into Robert Ford's death and the lingering effects of what he had done.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Um so it's it's very it's a bit very different.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Um I I um it tidies things up, so it's not it's a very different film in that respect, and it's trying to give you an idea of what it's like to be famous and what it's like to try and be famous, and then you know, the whole bit of the end about you know, nobody named their kids after him, nobody, you know, nobody and put him in museums for people to see, nobody do I mean he he died a very sort of quiet death and comparing that to what he wanted to be because he wanted to be you know Jesse James.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

But yeah, it's it's very different. I I am prepared to kind of give you um the final scene just because of the um yeah, the lore of it almost. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, I am gonna go for the score.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Oh man, I should have guessed it. Oh that's my next one! I put that up, that's my next one, I should have said score. I forgot to say it, I forgot to carry that on. Oh man, that's annoying. Alright, good, good.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Um, and again, I mean, I I think I think we're finding with our films here that they're not particularly deficient in any way, they're very different films, but The Wild Bunch, honestly, I didn't really notice the score that much. But for me, um, for Jesse James, it was absolutely kind of a character in the film for me. It it it was so interlinked with the entire story, the sense of um I've probably already said this, but the sense of melancholy that pervades the film is is just um accentuated beautifully by um Nick Cave and um Warren Ellis, um who did the score. Yeah um and the way that it it's so evocative, it it it uses um oh it it's kind of strings and piano, yeah. Uh and it sounds old fashioned, but it sounds kind of modern at the same time. Yeah. Um and it it it just brings a whole level of um atmosphere to the film and it it's it's just absolutely perfect in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

It is beautifully melancholy and it is um very of the time that it's trying to evoke of the sort of uh 1890s, I I can I can I absolutely agree with you there. I'm I'm gonna put forward just an idea for you just to sort of maybe stop you in your tracks and let you have a think about something, right? If you are watching a film and the cinematography jumps out at you, if you're watching a film and you think, yeah, that's they they've done some cinematography there, or if you're watching a film and you think, yeah, they've done some music there, I can see what they've done there. You know, those sorts of things should be beautiful things in the background, they shouldn't be coming forward and being centre stage.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I I totally understand what you mean, and I can absolutely see that in some films where it's it it does kind of almost take you out of it a little bit. Um I feel as if uh Jesse James it's not uh a plot-driven film, it's it's more of a mood piece for me. It's the the score is absolutely part of the film, it is in concert with all of the happenings, the performances, um, the scenery, it all works together, so it it it never took me out. No, it was all in perfect harmony, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

But I guess it didn't take you out because it was it was what you were watching. You were watching the beautiful shots and the listen to the beautiful music.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Whereas I feel with the Wild Bunch, I I mean the music again, it got it got nominations for awards, the music, Jerry Field and score in in The Wild Bunch. I think what the Wild Bunch does is it gives you cinematography and music that you don't necessarily notice as because you're following the film and because you're following the characters and the and the plot and you know what's going on. They're doing a good job if you don't notice those things, I suppose. But annoyingly, what what I'd like to be able to do is be able to say that the music was really jarring and uh that I heard it too much and that it ruined my interpretation of the film. But none of that's true, that's not that's not true in any way whatsoever. Um it you're you're absolutely right. It it's it's an interesting film, isn't it? Because it's um it is evoking an emotion emotion in you. I think it's I think it's flawed in many places, uh in the same way that the Wild Budge is flawed, and I think they're flawed in the ways which the other film does really well. I think um, but the score was excellent, yeah. So I'm I'm happy to yield on the score. Yeah, let's do editing. Why not do editing? Did I tip my hat a bit too much there? A little early. I didn't I wanted to get the when I talk about the editing, I'm gonna talk about the action sequences. I didn't want when I went to the finale, I didn't want you going, oh, you've already talked about the finale, you can't do it twice. That's an impression, yeah. Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Uh maybe it's my maybe it's my headphones. That's exactly how you sound, but maybe my headphones aren't working very well. Um so look, like in the same way that Roger Deacon came up with his deaconizers with his with his lenses on his camera, um Sam Peckenpower came up with um a template for filming action that would be you know repeated and people would try and um emulate it and and not quite succeed. He uh he had this fantastic idea of having slow-mo in the middle of speeded up in the middle of freeze frames, in the middle of you know, he had all these things that he threw at you and um edit them to edit them together. The two there's two main action sequences. They edited throughout the film is is set a standard. I think it's set a standard for for movies to come. Talk to me about the editing of Jesse James.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

I think it's it's obviously very different. There's no or there's very few quick cuts, um, it's more ponderous, uh slow paced. I did enjoy some of the close-up work and some of the um the conversational scenes were really well done where it focused on a particular face at a particular time, and you could see that there it it amped up the tension really well.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And and that's honestly what one of the feelings that I had throughout the film was just the level of tension because you knew that stuff was gonna go down, yeah, but you didn't know exactly how or exactly when and with who, yeah, but there was there was just this underlying kind of unease throughout, and I think the editing played a major kind of role in that.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, I think you're right. I don't I don't think it was badly edited. There's a few interesting decisions, I think, that I was curious about why they were the why they'd been made, right? So the they seem to shy away a little bit from the violence, I felt. I felt like they sh I'm not saying there wasn't violence in it, but so there was a gunfight between Wood, so they showed us a whole scene with Wood and Dick where Dick got together with his father's wife, yes, yeah, and I felt like that was a build-up to a showdown that we never see. So that then you overhear in a oh yeah, there was a gunfight between Wood and Dick because he he slept with his dad's wife. And I was like, Whoa, we didn't we didn't see that. The bit where he kills Ed Miller, they actually don't show you. Now I know in the book it goes in order. So in the book, um, he talks to Ed Miller, he's becomes suspicious of him, he takes him out and shoots him. In the film, he becomes suspicious of him, he says to him, Shall we go for a walk? And then it cuts to him saying that to Dick, Shall we go for a walk? And you're like, oh. My god, they're gonna kill Dick, which they don't do, and then it only comes back much later when he's when he's talking to Charlie about it, where where you see the scene where he kills Ed, and I felt like that's weird editing, I think, and uh like the way in which the order in which they've put things, um, that and like people missing like the whole Jim Cummins thing, where Jim Cummins became quite a big part of the story, but isn't in the film, isn't I felt like where the Wild Bunch was thrashing you head first into a m a too violent too violent exchange, it was sort of trying to hold back the violence. I don't I don't other until the very very final scene, I think everybody gets shot in the back of the head. I I'm not sure I can remember anyone that well they they have a little gunfight where they're terrible at fighting, don't they? Wouldn't Dick have this gunfight where they're really next to right next to each other and they can't hit each other. And they can't hit each other. But everyone who dies seems to get killed by being shot on the back of the head, which is quite an interesting like if that's your that's the sort of image of the West you're trying to perve, which is like that it is a sort of full of cowards and and and blaggards who but but again but again uh you know if you if you go back to the classical westerns, it was it would be like jewels, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Or it'd be like a a pinpoint shot from 50 yards with a pistol, which probably wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

So, you know, what actually happened, yeah, there was a lot of people getting shot in the back of the head.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it wasn't a criticism, but it was interesting, I thought that that seems to be the way in which it it was portrayed. You don't think I've done enough?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I'm I'm a little bit on the fence here.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I so I've said some things, I've said four separate things where I think they made mistakes with the editing. So I think either you've got to say where the editing was excellent, or you've got to give me four mistakes that they made in a wild bunch.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Oh I do, do I?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Oh no, no, you don't have to do any of that. You can yield, that'd be better. It's been so nice up to now. This has been such a nice episode up to now.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, but it's getting real now. Um no, I I I am prepared to yield. I mean, I did call this out as one of the things that I knew you were kind of annoyed to. Yeah. Uh I I will I will yield, but you can't use all the action shit again.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Agreed. 2-2. 2-2. Here we go. Into the end game.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

I am going to go for lead performance.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Do you get it?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Amazing. Yeah. Leady Affleck. No, no, no, hold on. What just remind me what Casey Affleck got nominated for in the Oscars? He did, he did. Hey, I'm not the Oscars. I'm so happy that you have chosen lead performance. Because I didn't think it was great. I thought it stood out as a not a very good performance.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

As in Jesse James.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Brad Pitt, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Um, I am I am going okay. I am going for Oh, you're changing.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Are we can we just do that freely? Oh nice, okay. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I am going for the performance of Casey Affleck.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, how do you I haven't got a Casey Affleck in my film, so how's that a category? That's not a category.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Okay, I am going for best supporting performance.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Best supporting performance. Man, and that's okay for me to just allow that to happen. I've written down lead performance. Do you want me to cross out lead performance? I've written down lead performance. Do you want me to cross that out now, embarrassingly? Yes. Yes. Yes. It's the right thing to choose for you, by the way, because he was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

I mean, from again, from the very first scene. The way that he just presents himself as just there's just an oiliness to him, and you just you just don't feel as if you can trust him. He's trying to say all the right things, behave in exactly the right way. He's trying to sidle up to Frank James, and you just get this sense that and Frank James calls it out, you know, perfectly that there's so many things that he does. His eyes, the way that um there would be a close-up on him, and his eyes would just kind of roll a little bit slowly, and you you would think, hang on, is is he a bit slow? Is he a bit stupid? And he's not, he he's really smart, but there's there's something about his portrayal which kind of goes against that and gives you this feeling again of unease, uh creates a bit of tension, and that is gets picked up on by Jesse James as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

To have Jesse James who is super sharp, he's picking up on every single little nuance of words, of behaviors, and Robert Ford or Casey Affleck, they're trying to keep up with it, they're trying to do the right thing, yeah, and be convincing. And he you can see he's really trying, and he almost does it, but you just know there's there's something up with this little little bastard, you know. And and and the way that Casey Affleck does it, I mean, is is just um monumental in my opinion. It was one of the best performances in the um in that yeah. I'm surprised that did it get did he get nominated? He did get nominated for an Oscar.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

He got nominated for an Oscar, yeah, yeah. One of the two nominations.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yes, that and um cinematography. So and and yeah, uh, and I compare that with the Wild Bunch, and I thought across the board everybody was pretty good. I would say I I guess you would say uh Ernest Borgnine is probably the the the the supporting actor. Um probably I thought he was probably he was very good.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I thought he was phenomenal. I thought Ernest Borgnine was phenomenal at that part because what he does is he gives you a he stops it from being just a violent fet fest. And actually there's a similarity here because Casey Affleck is a fanboy, so Robert Robert Ford is a fanboy of Jesse James, and actually a lot of the theme of the film is about fandom and about how so he's he's obsessed with um Jesse, and I think I think Dutch is very much obsessed, not quite in the same way, but he is he will go he will walk through fire for Pike, and he Pike is really everything to him, his family is uh you know his best friend, everything. And I think you see that particularly when Pike tries to defend Deke Thornton, where he says, you know, he gave his word, and Ernest Borden says, Yeah, to the railway. And Holden says, It's his word, and he says, But it's got to be your word to someone, not to something. You know, you can see Ernest Borgner is like so angry that he's defending his old the old Borg line of of the old days, basically his best mate before Dutch came along. That he's defending this guy who's hunting them down. Um I just feel like and like and I love the way he sat outside. You said not to mention the end of the game, so I'm not gonna talk about the violent bit, but he sat outside whittling a spike, basically waiting to do the right thing to go in with Holden and and give the last stand with Holden and the give him hell, give him hell pike at the end. I just felt like he gave a lot of depth in his performance in a film that perhaps someone else wouldn't have been able to give that sort of depth of relationship between him and Holden.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Um I think he I think he was the best actor in the film because I I did find that even with Holden, there but I did see it with Bald 9 as well. There was certain lines where it was um okay, we've got to do this now, and it and it was very there there wasn't much nuance to it, just so much shouting in it, and you know, every everybody's trying to be the big dog or something, but it it just felt as if there wasn't a a through line to it.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Ah, it's interesting because the through line really was who are you loyal to, who's in charge, who you know, that whole thing about you know, you side with someone, and if you don't if you don't keep with them, then you're no no better than an animal. And the whole thing where um Pike shoots the guy who's blinded and then says, Look, you're either with me or you're not with me. If you want to go, you can go. And then Ernest Borsing steps up and starts being unbelievably sarcastic and giving him a nod. Oh, we'll have a little choir singing for him, shall we? You know, that sort of thing, where he's obviously his job is to be Pike's right-hand man to say, Look, Pike is our man and we follow him to the end, and you know, that's what they do. So I I I tell you what I would say. You know, Rain Man, you know the film Rain Man.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Obviously, all the plaudits went to Dustin Hoffman, and I thought actually, the wonderful performance was Tom Cruise. It's a harder performance than Dustin Hoffman. Dustin Hoffman is playing that part. I think Casey Affleck, I think he I think he's majestic, but I think he's playing a specific character, I think he's playing someone on the spectrum, I think there's an a uh a connection to Rain Man in that way. I think I think he is um he has got he has got that in him. Whereas I think Ernest Baldnine had a much more subtle role to play, but I think he played it really well. You know, he hasn't got the the ticks and the eye rolls and the and the awkwardness and the you know the thing that gave um Frank James the willies every time he spoke to him. You know, he didn't have any of that because and that was brilliant. That was and and you're right, I can't imagine anyone else playing Robert Ford in the same way that I can't imagine anyone else playing uh the part in Rainman than Dustin Hoffman. But but do you see the point I'm trying to make is that Ernest Boarding has a much more subtle part to play, but I think his part is probably the most important part because all the themes come from him, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

I I didn't see the subtle or all of the subtlety that you're you're bringing up there. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

It is one of those things where look, cinematography, I think I like I said, like I said to you, I worry that it's a little bit in your face, music. I worry it's a little bit in your face. His performance, I worry that's a little bit in your face. But I can't I can't shy away from it. It was a remarkable performance, and I um there wasn't really a stage where I thought, oh, he's yeah, there's a misstep there. There wasn't really a misstep from Casey Affleck. There was from Brad Pitt, I think. I don't think Brad Pitt did a great job.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Um there were there there was a couple of times where the Tyler Durden came out.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah. I didn't find him as menacing. I I've listened to some people talk about how menacing he is. I didn't really. There was a tension, which you've alluded to, you're right. It was tense because you felt like he was a bit of a live wire, but I didn't I didn't feel I wasn't scared by him, and I wasn't like it was interesting. The first line of nar narration says that he had an eye condition that meant he was blinking all the time. I never saw him blink once the whole film.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

This was my one thing with the film, and I was talking to somebody about this a couple of days ago, um, was that it it gets mentioned and all the close-ups are of him without blinking at all.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Dead eyes, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I I mean we're straying into Brad Pitt's.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

I think overall he was good. There was a couple of moments where he wasn't, um, but I I was I was behind him.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah, you've got to get behind him because otherwise he'll shoot you in the back of the head. So behind him is the right way to be. I am yielding on this, yeah. You are yielding. I can't see past his performance, it's just such a good performance, and and like I said, I can I can go I can bang on about how Tom Cruise was great in the Rayman, but it Dustin Hoffman was too good to to shy away from, wasn't he? And it's the same with Casey Affleck, I thought he was superb. I'm going to go with I had you down as choosing script because the the writing is really flowery and but I'm gonna go with plot.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Okay, is that it? Yeah, done.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah. Do I need to say anything else? Okay, so what Wild Bunch is is relentless in its plotting, it goes from one to the one thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing without giving you a breather, really. There isn't really a point where you're not entertained in some way by the storyline, by the by what's happening to these people. So it starts it starts in the middle of a film. If you think about what happens at the beginning, so very beginning, they turn up to Rob a bank, they've been double-crossed, it's a setup, they've got washers in their bags, they've got 12 gunmen waiting to kill them. So it starts almost like a scene you would see at the end of a second act of a film, really. Um they get chased away, there's quite a lot of them get killed, they get chased away. Um, then they're being so they're being chased by Robert Ryan throughout the whole uh the whole film, so there's that sort of butchcasting the Sundance Kid kind of chase theme going on. They're looking for the one last um uh heist to put send them into their retirement.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

That's what they're doing. It is a it is a and and the only reason it's a trope is because people have done it since Gareth. I know you're laughing. The only reason that it's like um I'm too old for this shit, one more, and then I'm gonna call it it a day. The only reason it's like that is because the wild bunch went before it, and that's what the wild bunch was about. They uh get involved with the Mexicans, so they go to Mexico, they decide to steal some guns, they go and do a heist, they steal some guns, and then they they take Angel away, and that that's a horrible scene. Um, where Dutch has to give him up, Dutch says he's just a thief, do what you want with him, and then there's the whole thing, the whole thing with Angel, um, and then them going back in to seal the deal. I I just don't think it stops the plot, I think it's um it keeps you absolutely engaged all the way through the film. Every single turning point, every single little turning point. I think the plot of Jesse James, but I think it's all building up to that one scene, you know, it's a bit of paranoia. I think I think the plotting was confused a little bit about whether Brad Pitt should be paranoid, what he are they plotting against him? We never meet this Jim Cummer, so we don't really know. Is he just really paranoid or are they gonna, you know, are they double crossing him or you know, all that all that I thought was a bit messy and it was building up, I felt to the to Robert Ford.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

But do you think that build that is a deliberate act to help build the tension and to Although you know how it's gonna end, again, you don't know how and why and with who and Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

But I think the plot, Jesse James becomes paranoid and realises that Robert Ford is gonna kill him. Robert Ford is a fanboy who at some point in the film decides he's gonna kill Jesse instead of worship him. I don't know whether you can summarise the plot of Jesse better than I have.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

I mean, I I I think it is paranoia. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It it's the fact that he feels as if somebody is gonna grass him up, somebody's gonna give him up to the authorities, and he's probably gonna get hanged. And Bob Ford did call it out, you know, it's it's the fact that, you know, in that original train robbery, he is going around and eliminating the gang because basically dead men tell no tales. Not so much going around eliminating people, but he's going around seeing if he can trust these people.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And he obviously couldn't trust Ed Miller, um, and he wants to keep the brothers close because he doesn't quite know, and so that's why he he essentially hires them to be his bodyguards, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Yeah, yeah, he's he's made up this sort of um this thing they're gonna do in Platte City or whatever it is, yeah. But they never they never quite get around to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Um, I mean the the the plot it it's a very different film, obviously. You know, we we have said this. Um I don't know I with with the Wild Bunch, I did find it a little bit confusing at different stages. Um just with the village and the fort and the soldiers and like are they are they on who's on whose side now? Really? Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

You didn't know who the who were well there's a bit in it where it it's quite historically accurate, actually, because it was in the midst of the Mexican Revolution, and there is like a the um Poncho, is it Poncho Vila who's who attacks them at one stage? Like his soldiers it's one stage the the soldiers get attacked by other soldiers, like revolutionary soldiers, and the and the generals just really relaxed about it, they get on a train and they just leave. Do you remember that? It's like quite an interesting but but apparently it's like historically it is set is set in 1915, I think, where the automobile wars had appeared, the machine gun had appeared, there was a Mexican Revolution going on where there were lots of sort of little guerrilla outfits around around Mexico. So I think it was you know it was accurate.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

That was the that was the bit that just I was like, what sorry, what's going on now? Yeah, so I was a bit confused by that because you've got the kind of the order of here is a telegram, and yet and and it then you've got the complete lawlessness of whoever the hell these these guys are coming over the hills and shooting everybody and everybody's shooting everybody.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

But isn't that one of the themes of the film, Gareth, which is that it's it is chaotic and people can't be trusted, and um you know there are people who are incompetent, everyone's incompetent other than other than Robert Ryan. We're hunting men here, and I goddamn wish I was one of them. You know, that all that business about you know these are these are these are proper people who know what they're doing who we're hunting and you people are idiots and the soldiers are idiots and everything, you know, there's there's a real incompetence there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, but no, I I did f kind of find it you're gonna like this. I I did find it a a little bit baggy in some some places in the wild bunch, just with the the length of time that these shootouts went on, and it felt as if it was again betish a little bit, and shoot out for shootout's sake, let's see how long we can keep this going, to the point where I'm I I I'm kind of like okay, got it, it's chaos, got it. Okay, I've really got it now, and it and it just dragged a little bit for me. So some some of the some of the scenes.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Some of the scenes, yeah, okay. And I that's how you felt. I you know, I can't argue with that. I think from my perspective, if we're standing up Jesse James next to the wild bunch, and we're saying one of these films is a bit baggy and one of these films is is that's why I said you would love Jeeves Louise. Yeah, I it was you there was an interesting moment earlier on where you said you loved the film the camera work when two people are sat down talking in the film, and in my head I was like, the film, because that is what happened in the film, was that lots of people sat down and talked all the time, and it to the extent that they almost went, Look, we're gonna cram in another conversation here, so I'm gonna miss out the gunfight. I'm gonna cram in another conversation here. So I won't show you Ed Miller being shot in the head just yet, because I want to I want to make sure people are talking enough. Crikey. I whereas I I really enjoyed the film gangs.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Whereas the world's reverse of that.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah, exactly that. The antipathy of it, because like like the the um flashback scenes, I felt like I could have done with someone just telling me this story rather than me having because they were almost like I felt like they were almost like show don't tell, we're not gonna tell you anything, we're gonna show you everything. And if it means we want to see the backstory, I'll show you literally 20 seconds of a backstory. You know, there's a bit in it where he's in a room, someone comes in, tries to shoot him, shoots him in the leg, he goes after him, and that was the flashback. It's like we could have had that in dialogue, you didn't have to show us that necessarily, but they're showing us everything. Whereas your film is telling us everything, everything is being told by exposition and dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

I'm arguing against myself here, but you you you have said in the past, show don't tell. I mean, and that and that's like a mantra of movie making, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And when when when films come from books, they often they are it's often hard because a book is is not a show don't tell, a book is tell, tell, tell. And so um sometimes it's hard to shake that off, I think, in a film and make it a visual medium. Well, they do it so well with the cinematography, you know. I I've I've no what they've done really well is this could have been a really boring film, but what the they did was they made it really beautiful, and I and I hats off them for that. I'm arguing against myself now. But you know what I mean? They like like in in someone else's hands, without Roger Deacons at the helm of cinematography, and without I think the director. Um Andrew Dominic basically allowing Deacons to do his thing and say, Yeah, you do your thing because you're so good at it. I think this could have been a much more boring film. That was a loaded answer than a much even more boring film. Even more.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

I would feel bad not yielding because the Wild Bunch is, even though it's not exactly my cup of tea, I I know the esteem that it's held in.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

And um so okay. All right. I'll I'll give it to you.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Three-all.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

So I'm curious on the uh the dice roll side of things. I think you're gonna be it's gonna be lopsided to you.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

So so there's an interesting thing happening with one of the categories, alright? I have got four of the categories. I've got four of the categories, right? You've got a definite one category. The second category is dependent on whether you want to take into account inflation or not. Yeah. I suggest you don't want to take into account inflation. Um I hope that doesn't come up because I'm gonna I'll have to argue for inflation because it's massive. If we put take inflation into account, I've won by a long way, but actually, in terms of the numbers, you've won. So anyway, we have got letterboxed, IMDB, awards, metascore, rotten tomatoes, and box office taken. They're the six categories. Have you got your dice ready?

SPEAKER_00 45:36

I do.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Okay, it is currently on a three, I can see.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Okay, so I'm gonna press it once, and this is gonna be our response.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Good. Two is IMDB.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

You've won that.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, I have. Wild Bunch, not by much, actually. Wild Bunch is 7.9, and Jesse James is 7.5, so it's not by much. Okay. It's pretty close. Uh that sort of ended with a bit of a whimper, really. That's a shame. I wanted it to be. I don't know. Sometimes when it goes wrong, it's quite exciting because I get really angry.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

I I I think I think it is fair if if you know when you look at all the lists of westerns and revisionist westerns and classics, uh, it wild bunches consistently at the top there. So I kind of get it. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Okay. What are our quotes?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Uh do you want to start? What's your losing quote? My losing quote is don't that picture look dusty?

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Don't that picture look dusty? Did you think that he I think the way they played it in the film was that Jesse James wanted to die?

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yeah, no, totally. I mean he's basically surrendering and knows what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Yeah. Um my quote is uh give em hell, Pike. Give 'em hell, Pike. Is Ernest Borge name before when Pike gets hold of the machine gun.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Okay. I thought you were gonna go with uh let's go. Let's go. William Holden says that three or four times.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Does he? The first line one of the first lines he says is if they move, kill 'em. I think that's quite a good line as well. Both both films, I know that I know it was quite sparse on dialogue for mine. Both films had some fantastic lines in them, and I think like particularly yours was just oh man, you could have cut out basically any five minutes of your film and it would have had some poetry in it, essentially poetry.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

One of the lines that I I cannot forget is rooms would appear hotter when he was in them. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

That just that's cool. That's cool, that's nice. I quite like that. Yeah, my favourite line in yours was um you can hide things in vocabulary. I really like that. On the next episode of Battleflex, this is my battle. Uh, I have chosen musicians in film. So it's musicians who have taken a turn at acting. Uh, I have chosen MM's eight miles.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Boogie Knights.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Everybody likes a happy ending. Holy shit, is that Michael Shannon? You sound so middle class there.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

It's that pesky third category time.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

You know, I feel like throwing you the mic and saying, Say something that say something that I don't know. Okay, so we're both on a yellow card, is that I don't know how what happens if we get a red, but we'll see how it goes.