Aflevering 4: Ontmoet Luca Marchiani, beste sommelier Toscana 2025

In de zomer van 2025 praatten we met Luca Marchiani, sommelier AIS, die recent verkozen werd als beste sommelier van Toscane.

Hij vertelt ons hoe hij zijn passie voor wijn ontdekte, en welke weg hij aflegde, via de Alma school, een stage bij La Scoperta in Antwerpen, als sommelier in een Michelin ster restaurant, en nu als lesgever, sommelier en Toscane expert.

In de kelders van enoteca Porciatti in Radda in Chianti proefden we samen enkele Toscaanse wijnen die ons meenamen op een ontdekkingstocht door deze fascinerende regio.

Als we aan Toscane denken, zijn de sangiovese gebaseerde wijnen uit de Chianti Classico, Montepulciano of Montalcino onze eerste referenties. Maar had u al gehoord van ansonica, pugnitello of malvasia nera?

Luca neemt ons mee op een fascinerende reis.

Riccardo Porciatti van enoteca Porciatti hielp ons bij de selectie van de wijnen die we proefden:

- Senti Oh Vigneti Fontucci ansonica 2024

- Poggerino Chianti Classico 2023

- Gianni Brunelli Rosso di Montalcino 2023

We hopen dat u geniet van deze nieuwe episode. Hebt u suggesties of interessante onderwerpen om tijdens onze podcast te behandelen, stuur ons dan een bericht op podcast@lascoperta.be

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Okay, welkom bij Viaggio nel Calice, een ontdekkingstocht door de ziel van Italiaanse wijn. Vandaag nemen we plaats aan een houten tafel in het hart van Rada Inchianti. Bij Enotheca Borciati. Afgelopen zomer ontmoeten we daar in de middeleeuwense kelder van Enotheca Borcati. Lucca Marciani. Het was een gezellige drukte in de Enotheca, maar wij zaten in de degustatieruimte op het gelijk vloer met voor ons enkele flessen wijn die het verhaal van deze streek vertellen. Luca Marciani is sommelier aan Jesse, afgestudeerd aan Alma, en eerder dit jaar bekroond het beste sommelier van Toscane. Ricardo Porciatti hielp ons om enkele wijnen te selecteren uit zijn gamma. En we praten over druiven, traditie en de toekomst van Toscane in het klas. We have chiamato Viaggio in Calice. Viaggio nel calice nel calice: a journey through the soul of Italian wine. Today we are seated at a table in the heart of Rada Intianti, in the medieval cellars beneath us, there is the lively bustle of the Enoteca. But here we are in the tasting room on the ground floor. In front of us are a few bottles that tell the story of this region. Our guest today is Luca Marchiani, Ayes Sommelier, a graduate of Alma, and earlier this year awarded Best Sommelier of Tuscany. Congratulations by Auguri.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Thank you. You were part of my journey, so I hope you're proud. I am very proud. Are you ready? Yes, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So let's talk about the man behind the glass.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

So, Luca, do you remember the moment that you knew I want to be a sommelier?

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Well, that's a tricky question, but yeah, I remember pretty well that this moment. It was during um a wine tasting in Florence run by Massimo Castellani, my mentor, and it was about uh a Sicilian winery. This was a wine tasting that uh the brother of my girlfriend that time gifted me for my birthday as a birthday present, and uh he wanted to introduce me to the wine ward because I was starting to be passionate about wine, but without much knowledge in it. And so we went to this um uh tasting event. It was like a common tasting night, you know, the the the guy is speaking, the the winery um is there, so they're presenting their wines, they're telling something about the place, about the region, in this case Sicily. And what uh blew my mind in that moment was the way they were describing the wines. It wasn't just drinking something, it was something more, tasting not just the liquid inside our glasses, but also tasting a place. And that moment I realized that I wanted to understand more and learn more about this beautiful world that was able to put together so many things, not just having fun with your friends for dinner time, for lunchtime, or whatever in a wine bar, but also trying to put together history, traditions, geography, geology, and many, many other assets we can say. So after that night, probably the morning after I wake up with an idea that was to be part of this world, and so later in the year I decided to uh attempt the first level of the Somalia course in in Florence. So AIS, the largest Italian uh Somalia Association, was my decision because uh in that time ICE was the most important and uh prestigious uh school for Somalia, so I wanted to be part of that. In the early beginning was more or less like a hobby, but then after the second level, where we start talking about the wine regions and the world, so not just Italy, but also France, Burgundy, Bordeaux, uh Lower Valley, but then Germany with the beautiful Rieslings, Spain, the new world, USA, Australia, New Zealand. And I was uh uh led into a journey that started in that moment, and now we are here in Ocitaka Porciati talking about what happened and why I'm the best task in so many 2025. So, you know, it's just about passion, I think, and curiosity about learning more of my country and what is surrounding me right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And then you decided to study at Alma in Parma, the School for Cucina e Hospitalità Italiana.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

So so tell me a bit about that, and and what did you take away from studying at Alma? That is still part of your experience today when you drink a glass when you serve a glass of wine. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

So Alma was for sure the most um important moment of my uh educational process to become a master someday, because I graduated as a master's someday in Alma. And uh the school was created by Gualtero Marchesi, the great Italian chef. He was considered the father of the modern Italian cuisine. So he was a guy with blessed by wisdom and uh and uh a strong will for the future. He he believed in the new generations and he wanted to create new generations able to explain and uh and and use a personalized point of view on the word uh in terms of wine, but also food, in terms of management, whatever is connected to this beautiful gastronomy word. Um I still remember what was written on the walls in Alma, and uh I'm saying it in Italian and then I'm gonna translate. They wrote a phrase by Gualtero Marchesi: L'esempio is the plus. So the example is the highest point of education. This is what I bring back from that period. So trying to follow the example of my mentors, my teachers, my professors, and uh um create new examples for the new generations that will be part of this world, new consumers, or also new wine geeks like us maybe. And uh I also bring back from that moment the incredible amount of uh outstanding wines that we tasted. Uh they were always meaningful experiences for us in class, able to share with my classmates significant bottles. I'm just gonna uh say a few names like DRC, Domandaro Roman econti, you know, wines that some of us can only dream of. Can can barely dream of, and can uh there are wines that sometimes you can have once in your lifetime because they're so unaffordable and so far to get.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

But you had the chance to taste all of these wonderful wines at Alma. Yes. That must have been a great experience.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

It was a great experience because we were able to create our benchmarks, understanding what it takes to be considered one of the very best wines in the world. And this is important because in that moment you realize and you figure it out what it takes to reach that point, to reach that goal, to be considered highly considered. So what Alma gave us, it was a sense of community between the other classmates, because when you're having such meaningful experiences, it's not just you know drinking anymore, it's trying to recreate something together, and also we created a community of people that we still um enjoy, you know, once in a while to create your fellow students. Exactly. And uh we we meet sometimes. Uh one of those guys uh started a wine business in Albania, for example. He's one of the very first natural wine producers in Albania right now. Another guy is importing wines from the volcanic islands and the Canary Islands in Spain, only volcanic wines from there. So we we went deeper than ever in the wine world with a very empathic approach. So these are the things that I bring back from this incredible experience, and also sounds like a wonderful experience. And also the chance to visit Antwerp because that's how we met her.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yes, yes, when you came and did your stage at Lascopesta in Antwerp.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

My internship in Antwerp was part of the uh of the journey in Alma, and uh I brought back a lot of knowledge by this this meeting between me and you, yeah, and the And tasted a lot of beers as well, not only wines.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yes. It was probably But that's not our topic today.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, it was probably the only period of my life that I um exchanged beer for wine, you know, because I drink more beers than wines in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

So, and then now recently, a couple of months ago, you were recognized as the best sommelier in Tuscany. Um, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Well, terrific achievement for first uh was a dream of a lifetime. Um I still remember the the first time I was just looking at the guys competing for the best sommelier in Tuscany was in 2018. I was freshly graduated uh because I graduated as a sommelier in 2017, so the the first time I was able to watch a live um um challenge, a live event of the best sommelier in Tuscany was in 2018. And in that moment, Simone Loguercio won the the tournament, and then a few months later he became the Italian Best Sommelier. So in that moment I started to dream of this, you know, trying to be recognized as one of the very best in the region, and you know, be considered one of the very best in Tuscany, it's uh incredible because Tuscany is known as one of the most important wine countries in Italy, together with Pidmont, Veneto, Sicily, and just a few other areas where the best wines are from. So it's uh a dream for me right now, but at the same time it's a sort of uh um honor and um and I feel the the the duty to be to explain my my my wine region, the winemakers that live here to the world.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And uh yeah, so and that's a great link to my next question because what I wanted to ask you is we're here in in Tuscany, and Tuscany is one of the you know most well-known but most recognized wine regions in in Italy. And and what do you think makes Tuscany so unique as a wine region?

SPEAKER_02 12:55

The Tuscan guys. No, this is a joke, but um, I believe that Tuscany is special, first of all, because the the wine business here it's more than just a business. It's something that started around the 1100 with the very first families in the wine business. We still have some examples, you know. The for example, the Antinori, the Frescobaldi, the Guicciardini, the Mazzei, Ricasoli, families that are like 30 generations of winemakers. So for us, wine has a different meaning, it's not just business, but is uh related to our tradition and lifestyle. Even if you're not in the wine business, as I was not before my Somer day graduation, I always felt that wine was something more than just a drink. And uh and so we're respectful to it because it's part of uh of our land also. And what is special about Tuscany, I believe, after many trips about uh around the main wine regions of Italy and not only, I believe is the respect that we still feel in the wine regions. You don't just see vineyards or just olive trees everywhere, it's not just about business, it's just about, it's also about sustainability and and connection and uh create a community even in the land. Forests, biodiversity. I mean, we are in Radan Chianti, the core, the heart of Chianti Classico. And uh talking about Chianti Classico, for example, we have to understand that more than the 70% of the land is just about forests. Yeah, that's an incredible thing because we can make wines, but we make wines that are connected to this place with respect, and I think this can be a unique point of view compared to other areas.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

It's one of the things that makes Tuscany different from Piemonte, for example, where the proportion of vineyards on the land is a lot higher.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Exactly. And what I also think is the amount of that's kind of an Italian thing, but the amount of small winemakers that take care of the land like it's their own house and their own family. So I believe this is special. This makes our place different, and also probably we are blessed, we can say that. Because our land in some areas naturally produce a different quality in the wines. I always make this example, even to my students in school, that Sangiovese is the most cultivated red grape in Italy from north to south, but you mostly know something about Sangiovese just because Tuscany exists. So it is meaningful that the type of land, the altitudes, the exposures, the climate, the sunlight makes a difference for quality. So probably this can be the light differences.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Okay. Now, when you did your thesis, um you talked about um autochthonous grape varieties, because we we know Tuscany most because of Sangirovese, and we'll talk about that in a moment. But but there are lots of other grape varieties, it's one of the reasons why Italy as a wine country is so interesting because of the diversity of the grape varieties, and this is also true in Tuscany. There's a lot more than Sangiovese. Um, are there any grape varieties in Tuscany that you say, ah, this is something which you really should try? This is something which is not so common, but which I think you really should try.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

So uh there are a lot, honestly. One of the most underrated grape varieties right now is Trebbiano. I believe it's uh it's a white grape that for many years was just relegated to be part of the Vin Santo production and completely almost disappeared from our land. But thanks to some winemakers, it's coming back in many different ways, like very uh common modern white wine, dry, uh crisp, light, and drinkable, or also orange wine styles. So using the skin contact during the fermentation, or sometimes, and we have an example of a winemaker in Radda, like uh white burn and the uh Chardonnay style. So uh Trebbiano, it's very flexible, is a grape that is famous for uh to be the same as the Unit Blanc in France for the production of the uh Armagnac and the cognac, so honestly, it's a really underrated grape variety. But then there are also some red grapes uh like canaiolo, that is the the little brother of San Giovese, is the main helper of San Giovese. When San Giovese is not able to uh be uh light and perfumey, canaiolo can be the main helper. Not many tenants in this grape, but wow, it's a very drinkable wine. I always remember a friend of us, Francesco from Bologna di Ceccione, his father that is one of the very few left original winemakers of the land. He was once a sugarcropper and now is a winemaker for real. He always told me that the canaiolo was the wine of the family, the wine drink every day by the farmers. So it's the sort of everyday answer to the consumption. Or also Malvasianera, that for many years was uh uh we thought it was tempranillo, maybe, but is uh it's considered Malvasia, and you know the word of Malvasia, it's huge. There are Malvasia everywhere. They probably were brought from, we don't know, the Middle East probably, and they're uh so diverse. We have aromatic Malvasia, Malvasianera, white malvasia, so it's an incredible word. A little more spicy. The Malvasia, in my experience, can be compared to the dolcetto impediment. Uh rustic most of the time, not easy to vinify. But when you find the right way, and sometimes the terracotta jars, the amphoras, can be a good help, malvasia is able to provide a very nice character. Grape that honestly uh surprised me a lot is Pugnitello, that is uh an ancient grape variety, uh, as maybe the folliatonda, but folia tonda is a little more earthy, it tends to be a little more dried, so a little more mature compared to Punitello. Pugnitello is uh is a grape variety that has been rediscovered mostly by San Felice in Casanovo Beradenga with their um experimental vineyard uh throughout the 80s and the 90s, and is a grape that is famous for the name, Pugnetello, like a punch, because the size of the punch is like our punch. So uh very strict, very concentrated, and gives wines with a deep color and uh and a powerful character. Um mostly used to add something to Sangiovese, but I believe it's one of those grapes that can be a standalone grape. Okay, so even for wines that need to be a little more uh powerful, more full-bodied, Pugnitello can be a nice one.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Okay, we'll we'll look out for that one.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

But don't forget the Ansonica on our coast.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Angilio. Everyone is talking about Vermentino from Tuscany, but Vermentino is a great variety that honestly probably finds more describers in Liguria or in Sardinia, it's more unique there. Uh Tuscany, it's having uh a big evolution on the Ansonica on the coast on the islands, like in Giglio. Ansonica is uh the same grape in that we find in Sicily with the name Nzolia. It's a grape with a thick skin, thicker skin than Vermentino, so it's also nice for sweet wines or even here, skin contact wine, so lightly macerated orange, orange wine style. So it's a grape variety that is able to enhance this deep connection to the to the seaside, to the shore, more than maybe even the Vermentino. So does minerality, but also this uh concentration of flavors. Vermentino most of the time is herbal. It's um it's more savory than everything else, it's very average. But Ansonica is able to provide a more deep fruity character, like apricots, like a pineapple most of the time. So it is very interesting, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

These are one of the wines you you know, before we started, you selected three wines from Ricardo's range for us to taste, and the first one is an Ansonica. What do you say? Shall we taste it?

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Sure, immediately. Let's taste. It's an Ansonica from the Gildo Island, so we're not just on our Tuscan coast, but we are literally. Inside the island, and that is a 2024 harvest. Which one you prefer? Let's go, let's do this.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Let's go with that one.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

And um, as you can see from the color, what I was telling you about the uh the Unsonica, you know, this powerful identity that it's probably even with a nice golden color. Yes. It's golden. Um it is also probably unfiltered because I see a little bit of sediments, is a little is a lightly opalescent in my glass, but a beautiful color that tells me the the sunlight. It's it's a one that communicates to me summertime, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Uh, and the the the power of the sun to grow these skins and the grapes uh in this beautiful island. Smelling it, I do find an immediate approach of um herbs, sea breeze, it's the main character. But then this deep fruitiness, these apricots, um nectarine, uh yellow peaches takes the lead. But always you know bringing this sea breeze character is a wine, it's like smelling the sea in front of us in the beautiful Giglio Island. Don't forget that these Ansonica's vines grow on granite soils. That's really important. So it's the probably the main marker for Mediterranean wines in general. I mean, just thinking the other granite areas can be Sardinia, can be the Languedocru in France. And we always find this sort of Mediterranean character in the wines, even in the white wines. Yes. It's uh it's like traveling to that place honestly.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

And it is a beautiful place, huh?

SPEAKER_02 24:12

So tasting it, I don't feel again this sort of uh uh smooth texture that takes the lead is a wine about 13.5 in alcohol, is is a wine that that share this this intensity of aromas, this this deep powerful texture, but it's also gentle. Because you're right. Beside this first approach in your mouth, what is left is this sort of very um uh sharp after taste that takes uh this sort of minerality, savoriness, salty character. It was like uh a little sip of the water, of the sea water that sometimes we don't like, but in this case it's like oysters, for example.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

It's it's powerful yet elegant.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah. So has this had skin contact?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Um I wasn't able to understand it. Um they just say that uh pure vinification of uh Ansonica grapes.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Uh but I believe that probably can be lightly skin contact, just checking the color. Yeah, probably the winemaker vinified his wine with using batonage, so trying to bring fat, especially fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Fat approach somebody, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Increase the body the body experience of the wine in your mouth. It's a one that explained the Tuscanyranian wines.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Body this is not the first thing you would think about if you think about Tuscany.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

It's interesting that Tuscany has such a variety of styles.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yes, that's why I picked this uh this Ansonica today. Because we were, I mean, I'm a red wine drinker, honestly. I I if I have to drink a wine, I usually go for red, even during the summertime. I chill them and I'm fine with this. But Tuscany is more than this.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

We have a lot of hidden secrets, a new well, it's nice to discover one of those hidden secrets.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

And Ansonica and the the Gilio Island, it's a great, great representer for for this, I believe. Do you like it?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I I love it. I had had Ansonica before, but this is and I've been to Gillio. Um I loved it. It's a wonderful place. It is. Um, you know, it's really nice to discover that there's more than Sangiovese in um in Tuscany. But Sangiovese remains the backbone of Tuscany, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

So if you check the numbers, Sangiovese is cultivated on the 60% of our vineyards in Tuscany. So is the is the king, is our Tuscan king for sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

But it's not just about Sangiovese. You can come over here, enjoy a lot of good Sangiovese, and also enjoy the uh chameleon character of Sangiovese.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

That tends to be different in every area.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Because just explain in a few areas: Chianti, Chianti Classico, Nobile di Montepulciano, Brunello di Montalcino, Morellino di Scansano, Carmignano, these are all Sangiovese, even if they use confusing names like Crugnolo Gentile and Morebino and Sangiovese Grosso. But it's all Sangiovese.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

It's always Sangiovese, different clones, uh sometimes blended to other grapes. Because the the disciplinary of uh Chianti Classico, Chianti, Nobile di Montepuciano, and Carmignano allow you to blend your Sangiovese to other grapes. Yeah. Brunello di Montalcino is the only one that is 100% Sangiovese, obliged to be like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

But you always find a different character of Sangiovese in all these regions.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

More intense, powerful, tanic, and long-lived in Montalcino, more acidic and sharp in Chianti Classico, and uh more fruity and uh round in Montepulciano, where the clays takes the lead, and we have a little more uh let's say heavy version of San Giovese, or very balanced, very smooth in uh in Morellino di Scansano in the Marema area. But San Giovese lose the aggressivity, lose the sharpness, and be a little more everyday. So we can look for San Giovese and we can have an incredible journey throughout Tuscany, but we can also look for something else. And on Sonica, if you're visiting the Tuscan coast, is a great wine to drink.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Let's talk a bit about um the role of the sommelier. You're you're um you know a recognized sommelier. What makes a good sommelier in your view?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

My opinion, and I had the chance to work in a missionist or restaurant in my experience, is the empathy. Sommelier must be like uh psychologists, basically. Because the when the the guest is coming in, you have to understand um what he's looking for, what kind of experience he's looking for. So you cannot just the right sommelier, the good sommelier is the one that understands. So is not putting the the let's say the self himself in front of the of the customer of the guest, but is letting the guest enjoy the experience and uh have the best moment possible. The sommelier role nowadays is more than just the one that works in the restaurant, um, because the the sommelier role now can work in hospitality, for example, in wine in wineries, uh, can work for um distributors and importers um with an important role, like the selectors, because the main role of a sommelier is the palate and the ability of wine, of tasting wines in general, but can also be a storyteller in general. Many someliers right now are also, let's say, journalists in a certain way. You can be a sort of influencer uh on the social media, and it's important as well. Uh what reunite and connect and link all these different roles of the actual modern sommelier, it's the the role. You're always uh serving the winemakers. Okay, so you are the final um boundary between the winemaker and the final customer. So it's our duty to perfectly explain and connect that person that is sitting right here, right now in Radanchianti at Porchati wine shop to the regional area where this wine is produced. So let them travel with their imagination for first and then with their palate. So that's I believe the the real role of a somadier.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

That's why you visit so many wineries, because you want to observe it firsthand, you know, feel the land, the people, the climate, the exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yes, it's uh it's all about this, trying to reflect what we see in the proper way.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

And then you transmit that when you recommend a wine to one of your customers with.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

That's that's the thing. And now more than ever that I'm working with uh with students that are like 20 years old, you know, they barely know the Italian map sometimes. So let them understand that it's something more than just you know going out and have fun in a wine shop in Florence, and wine has a more meaningful background every after behind every every glass. I think it's uh it's a more um conscious approach, even to the to the drinking moment, that for us is more tasting. But we can also drink a little more sometimes, yeah, but always with a meaningful approach because we know how hard is the commitment that you need to make something like this. Yeah, facing the weather conditions, the the rules, the bureaucracy.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

I always think the tariffs. It's a hard job.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

We have to explain this properly, otherwise, everything just is just without this, it will be only, yeah, I'm gonna take this bottle from the shelf because I like the label, or maybe because the price is the proper one for me. Okay, it cannot be just that. No, wine is more.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Shall we move to our second wine? Sure. And it's one of one of my favorites. You selected one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I know your paletting. No, it's also one of my favorites, honestly. And since this year I uh got the master um of Chianti Classico degree, also. Uh so I'm kind of an ambassador for Chianti Classico right now. I cannot go away from this beautiful region.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

And since today we cannot be in Rada and not taste Pogerino. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

We are in Rada in Chianti and we're tasting Pogerino. This is the 2023 harvest. Uh, friend that we have in common, Piero Lanza, is the winemaker. I still remember that day that I visited Pogerino on my own, uh, telling him that I started enjoying his wines thanks to you in in Antwerp. And it's kind of unusual because I had to understand his wines in Belgium and not here in Florence or in Italy. And uh he brought me around the vineyards, he literally gave me uh a lesson, an agronomic lesson. He's a wise guy, he has a lot of knowledge, and he's also very um simple. He's a simple guy, he loves his job, he's passionate, and he's willing to make year after year just the best possible from his vineyards. Uh the winery is settled in the core of Radda, on the opposite side.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Very beautiful place.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Very beautiful place, right on the opposite side of Montevertini, on the beautiful little valley that goes across the northern sector of Rada in Chianti. And I love the way he is essential on the Sangiovese. This is pure Sangiovese, no blending.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

No.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I know we were talking about the Toctinus grapes, but you know Sangiovese is Sangiovese. And uh I love the way he's used the concrete bats to help Sangiovese achieve a very pure and neutral character. Um, he's one of the guys that um let me see the concrete use inside a winery on a different scale. Because throughout his uh explanation, I was able to understand that uh the concrete bats can be sort of an ensement of the original organolectical profile of the grape varieties. So in this case, we're just we're just sipping a pure version of Sangiovese, the purest possible.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

And I always think it's very recognizable, huh?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

So it has a very, very specific style.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

The first thing, I mean, it's the color of Sangiovese. It cannot be inky. Sangiovese must be light and pale in the color. That's our beloved Sangiovese, that's the real character of it. An explosion of ripe fruits, because Rada, even is if it's the central area for Canticlassic, and is known for these uh aggressive tannins and sharp acidity most of the time, due to the specific soil, the the alberezza, the galastro that we find here, so the rocks that implement with a little bit of limestone these uh the strength of the of the Sangiovese characteristics. We always have a ripe red fruit in the in the Sangiovese from Rada, and Pogerino is uh one of the very best to explain this character. Cherries, raspberries in this case, a lot like crashed with my hand, like ripe raspberries. These hints of violets, but you know the parfumy violets and red roses are just the perfection, the the the essentials of San Gerese. Yes. I picked the Chianti Classic Annata, so the youthful version, because I believe is the and this is the latest finity. The latest review.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

That has only come out quite recently.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Quite recently, and I believe the youthful version of Chianti Classico that can be developed in three ways, like the Chianti Classico Annata, the Reserva and the Gran Selezione, the Annata, even if it's for many considered just the entry-level wine, and I don't like this description, because it's the most pure purest version of the Chianti Classico, it's the way to understand the big differences that we have throughout every village, every commune of the Chianti Classico area. You also know that recently the Chianti Classico uh described the terroir even more, specifically using the UGA, the geographical uh units.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yes, and there's a wonderful book about it, and also on the website of Chianti Classico, there are some really great images that you can look at to understand how the terroir is different in different of these UGAs.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

That's the beautiful part of Chianti Classico, I believe. It's the most intriguing part of Chianti Classico that every hill, every valley creates something different. And Radha is known for what we're sipping now. Yeah. These little aggressive tannins drove by the acidity content, so it's a wine that we can define as a heated by a sourness. But this sourness is the backbone of the wine that makes Sangiovese one of the most drinkable red crepe varieties in the world.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

And it's a great food wine now.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Yeah. That's why I love it. Because you can have any kind of meal, and Chianti Classico Annata can be your best partner in crime. Yes. For any kind of meal. You can do pasta, you can do cheeses, you can do curd meat, you can do vegetable also. Because, you know, for example, my sister is vegan, so we cannot skip red wines in my house. So we gotta find a way. And Chianti Classico with his drinkability, with this alive character that I like to say to to explain like a rock music sometimes because it's like a roller coaster, thanks to the acidity. Uh, it's able to be flexible and enjoyable. And to be a Chianti Classico not, I mean the aftertaste is really engaging, it's long, yeah, but it's bright as well on this beautiful fruitiness.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about um the future of Tuscany from a wine perspective and the challenges of Tuscan wines. There's there's there's lots of different trends, huh? Um, you talked about the Grand Selezione that was introduced a while ago. Um there's been for quite a number of years now a trend towards more organic, biological, biodynamic farming and working in the cantina. And then this latest project of the um uh consorticio to look at the potential for developing wines that have lower alcohol, which they now are planning to start experimenting with, responding to um you know a trend in the market uh where we see consumers, particularly younger consumers, asking for lower alcohol wines, moving more to white wines. So, what's your view on all of that and how do you see the future of Tuscan wines in all of this happening?

SPEAKER_02 40:46

So I would love to know the perfect answer, Inge, honestly. It's kind of hard because uh it probably is also a natural um moment of the market. I don't know, but probably you know there is always an up and down, and the the decrease of the wine consumption started uh almost a century ago. Uh our lifestyle is changed, uh, our diets are different, our um approach to the healthy um lifestyle is different right now. We don't need the let's say the same calories that our ancestors needed to work manually in the fields, in the buildings, whatever. So everything is changing a lot. Um probably can be a provocation right now, but I think it's time for wine in the can.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Okay, that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Because the we need to rediscover wine on different levels, you know. Uh probably be more aware, even for the winemakers, uh, in terms of producing less and higher in quality, can be important for the futures because consumption is going down. So we have to um handle it in some ways. I believe that we talked about uh how what is behind a glass of wine and how important it is to not ruin it and to not um and to not forgive it, uh forget it when you're when you're having a glass of wine. But it's also time for the wine producers to be less elite and snobby and to try to catch the newest generations like the Gen Z that is not consuming wine in in many uh situations. I mean, it's a natural evolution of our society. For example, I see my sister, she's now living in the Netherlands, she's uh she turned 27 recently, and she started work last year after she graduated in at the university at 26 years old. So she didn't have a paycheck or a monthly income.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

So you say lifestyles have changed.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Yes. My father started work at 14 years old. Okay, so he he was able to buy the first house when he was 25 years old. Now maybe we're we're in the same conditions, economic conditions, when we're 35 or 36. So our approach to the wine, that for many generations is considered like a luxury product, is different and cannot be the same. And for us, the newer generations, wine cannot be just something that we drink. Okay, it's a meaningful moment for us. So every time we approach a bottle of wine, even even I, I don't drink every day. I taste every day, but I don't drink every day. I maybe I maybe reserve that the drink moment for one or two days in a week, and I want to have a meaningful experience. So I want to spend more for a bottle of wine because I want to get the best, I want to make memories of that moment. And so I believe we need to. To open the wine world to more possibilities, make better wines more meaningful, but we don't have to look for containers as the expression of the inner quality. Even corks, you know? How many times we talk about crown corks, um uh screw caps, uh natural cork, DM, um, or other uh types like plastics or or glass corks? Don't be scared about little revolutions, you know? Because never say never. Even the wine world evolved in centuries and and thousand years. So why we we should not evolve right now. So I believe that the future of wine must go through um an opened-minded idea of the the the wine consumption but also the the approach of the winemakers that it's not just just stalking inside our uh community, but try to open up the community and bring more people inside. Okay, so wine in the can is a pro is a provocation, but honestly, why not? I mean, why not? Yeah, once wine was just sold in barrels and then bottles came.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

What you're saying is it's not the glass bottle in the cork that determines the quality.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Um so let's diversify and uh have a wine for every moment.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Why not? Yeah, we don't have to be stuck in the same position, you know. We have to evolve. We always evolve in our lives. We're not the same as we were when we were 14 years old. We evolve year after year throughout our experience. So even the wine ward needs to probably face a new challenge. I don't have the recipe, but this is a personal idea.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

From the south of Tuscany. From the Montalcino.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

One of our um most important areas for wines in Tuscany. When I describe Montalcino, I always describe as the blessed by God area, because if you check the uh chemical analysis of the Brunello di Montalcino's produced at the end of the 1800s, they have the same level of alcohol, the same uh acidity content, the same polyphenols content of the actual Brunellos. So that place is special for sure. This is uh going on with the sort of a uh revolution of the wine world in the next years. This is a Rosso di Montalcino, it's not a Brunello. Okay, because you know to make a Brunello, the winemaker needs to go through five long years in the cellar. They need a lot of money because it's a big investment. So make profit out of it, it takes a lot. And and still, Brunello is relatively expensive, it is really expensive, and nowadays, people that can afford Brunello di Montalcino at a table in a restaurant, they're not many because for many in many cases we're going over 100 euros per bottle. So it's a sort of special occasion, it's a special, kind of a special occasion, even if I would love to have Brunello every week, honestly, because it the grace of Brunello because it is special, the grace of Brunello, the elegance of Brunello, it's something that is uh I can find only in the best wines in the world, like Burgundy Bordeaux, or maybe some very good uh Napa wines or similar. Um the rosso is the first approach to the to the Montalcino's board, and this is by Gianni Brunelli, that is uh a wise winemaker that uh look for great elegance and finesse for first. The winery settled in the eastern sector of Montalcino, uh, an area that is full of uh limestone, the area of the Calanqui. It is not far from the Biondisanti estate, and uh they have let's say different plots. They don't have everything over there, but uh uh it's a sort of a blend of different areas. But what I love about about uh the style of Gianni Brunelli is the deep uh connection to the more refined version of Sangiovese from Montalcino that is not just about alcohol and tannins, but in this case for rosso can also be a deep finesse. They use oak barrels for this wine, but usually you just feel a sort of detail added by the oak and not a main protagonist in the wine.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

So the vintage is this? This is also 2023, yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Yeah, so we're literally comparing 100% Sangiovese.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

The nose is very different, eh?

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah, yeah, this is more Montalcino, is a different approach, obviously. For first, the uh the Chianti Classico wasn't aged in the oak barrel, so yeah. This first approach probably leaves something more the yeah, the incipit, as we say in Italian for this rosso di Montalcino, is about this sort of barbecue charcoal idea.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

When you grill your bistecca, you fall into steak, and you smell this the fat that literally uh drop on the charcoal, and then you get that that pure fruitiness of Sangiovese. It's a more ripe cherry compared to the one that we have in Radanchianti, that is a little more sour cherry compared to this one. And here we feel one of the main markers of Montalcino, the Mediterranean bashes, that are like the rosemary, like the thyme, like the the burnt sage leaves, eucalyptus. It's it's more um it's it's filled with this sort of coastal soul that we don't usually feel in the County Classical area that is more inner compared to the Montancino area.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Because Montancino is not that far from the sea, is it?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

It is um a little more than 40 kilometers from the sea. But the interesting approach of this um Rosso di Montancino in our mouth is it's round, but it's following like a train, a single line that is acidity plus tannins, a little different compared to the tannins of the Chianti Classico, a little less aggressive, more like a uh sort of scaffolding for the wine in our mouth that keep everything there. Isaroso di Montalcino, it's probably in the in the youth moment, it's like going to kindergarten right now, but I believe uh it's a great explanation of Sangiovese here because when you you don't feel the tannins anymore, the wine goes on with a very long lasting aftertaste, and it's again pure. The oakiness is just a light part of it that gives this sort of smoky aftertaste, lightly toasted, but it's again just fruit and this bloody orange character, like uh lightly tangerine sip that makes the wine really bright. I love both.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

I cannot decide, which is my two different isn't that what makes it interesting? The fact that they're two such different expressions of one grape.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

That's Sangiovese, guys.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

So let me ask you one last question.

unknown 52:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

If you were ever to make a wine yourself, what sort of wine would it be?

SPEAKER_02 52:19

So I would like to. I have a hidden dream. Okay, that my grandfather was a shirtropper, and he had a little vineyard in Scandichi that is a little which is just outside of Firenze. Just outside of Firenze, yeah, it's that's the let's say a growing area, but for many years was just uh dormitory of Florence where people were living and worked then in Florence. Um he had uh this little vineyard uh called the Sodolungo, and we know that sodo in Tuscany means hard soil, so it means that probably they found rocks in that clay soil that is usually the common in Scandichi, and he was making the best wine of the area there. So my dream, my hidden dream will be to get back this little vineyard and uh uh produce mostly sangiovese, but let's say also a little bit of trepiano. I would like to produce a sangiovese using uh spontaneous fermentations, uh open-air fermentation with uh I would like to use um a barrix or tuneau, depending on the amount of wine, not big barrels, because it will be probably a small production. But I like how Sangiovese get oxygen throughout the small oaks, oaks barrels. One of the best winemakers in this region, Martino Manetti, always told me that Sangiovese needs a lot of oxygen when it's fermenting, so uh I believe we have to avoid the reduction points of Sangiovese, and then age it. But I would I don't want wood to be the main protagonist, I want the barrels as the final touch, and then a trebiano, and I will do 48 hours skin contact and use barrels as well for trebiano.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

You've got it all thought out, yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

So this is not just a dream, it is a hidden dream, but it's it's real in my mind. I just need to to find a little more to be a little more brave to start this experience, and I would like to bottle my trebiano in a uh burgundy style, like a sort of Chardonnay bottle, very classic white label with maybe the the the year of the harvest, like the usual burgundy classic. And for my my Saint-Juvaise, I would like to use a Bordeaux style, green bottle, thicker uh Bordolese bottle, thicker um neck, and with uh with a very classic label, sort of Bordeaux style.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

This would be my my idea of well it sounds it sounds fascinating, and I hope we will one day be able to sit around the table and taste your wines. That would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

So the the idea is a very romantic idea because I would love to produce these wines without letting my family know this, and then all of a sudden bring these bottles to a family meal and and just uh uh blind taste these bottles to my my dad and uh and make him emotional because I brought back the original vineyard of the family.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Well, that's a wonderful dream to have. Who knows? I wish you all the best with it.

unknown 55:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Luca, thank you so much for this um this tasting and this discussion. It was great to hear your thoughts and to we're going to spend some time with you here in uh in Rada.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

It was all my pleasure, Inge. It's always great to spend some time with you here, and I hope that uh who's gonna listen this uh this little interview is gonna be fascinated by Tusking, and maybe you want to maybe come and visit. Come and visit.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

And they should definitely come and take a look at Riccardo Porciatti's uh selection of wines because he's Enotica Porciati has a wonderful selection.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

It is outstanding. You can find the very best of Gianti Classico, absolutely, and not only, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

And great food, so let's have some of that food. Let's go have fun with some of the wines. Thank you very much, Luca.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Thank you, Inge. Tot ziens.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

We luisterden naar Luca Marciani, een sommelier met wortels in de Toskaanse aarde en een blik die rijk tot de horizon. Zijn woorden proefden als twijn, gelaagd, zuiver en gedragen door kennis en liefde voor het land. We luisterden naar zijn ervaringen aan de Almaschool in Parma en als sommelier. We leerden ook druivestoort te kennen die we niet dadelijk met Toscane associëren, zoals Ansonica, Pugitello en Malvasia. Bedank je u voor het luisteren. De beschrijving van de wijnen die we proefden, vindt u in de notes van deze podcast. Bent u in de buurt van Rada Incanti, dan kunnen we een bezoek aan Anoteca Porciati warm aanbevelen. Bedankt voor het luisteren naar via Giorgi. Hebt u vragen of suggesties mail ons dan op podcast atlascoperta. We wensen u veel degustatieplezier en altima