Sour Demon Candy & Judgmental Cats: An Interview with Kelly Preston

This week, Julia interviewed Kelly Preston about her book DEMON TO YOUR RIGHT. Technical high jinx were had all around but we've done our best to clean it up. And of course, we tortured Kelly with a few games, and asked some outrageous questions.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:02

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes me craft notes and no one gets enough plate. I'm Jeff. I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for on hit hot takes. A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shape. Grab your blankets, booklets, it's time to get booked all night.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes mean craft notes. I'm the host Julia, and today I'm joined by Kelly Preston, the author of The Demon to Your Right. Welcome to the pod. Thanks for having me. Amazing. Um let's start out with you telling us a little bit about your book.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Sure. Um, The Demon to Your Right is a sapphic horror romance. Um, pretty dark, as a little uh warning. But um yeah, it's also an allegory for chronic pain, and it's kind of like loss meets fairy tales, if you will. That's amazing. Hey, trigger warnings to me are like a menu, so like it's dark, but I would hope people would maybe get that idea that it's horror anyway, but sometimes not.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I mean, if you're reading horror, you kind of have to expect you're reading horror.

unknown 1:20

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

You would be surprised. Oh, honestly, not that surprised, to be honest with you. I've seen Goodreads reviews. I don't like books about men. Why are you reading okay? Anyways, small, my small rant of the day. Um, all right, we are gonna start off with a quick game. So this game is called superlatives. We pick one and then we're gonna explain it. All right, so which of your characters is most likely to haunt the reader after the book is closed?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

I would definitely say the main character Amara, um, since she does a lot of the haunting in the book of the other secondary character.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Just crawling out. Hello! Yeah, I think she follow you home. Follow your dream. Perfect. Um, which is the most emotionally dangerous character?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Ooh. Um, I would say the most emotionally dangerous from an abuse standpoint would be the uh kind of demon overlord, dude Derek, who is um in many ways controlling the main character in a lot of the book.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Do you mind speaking to how he's controlling her? Is that getting it too man too much spoilies?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Oh, I think I can. Um he's very, I guess, emotionally and physically abusive. So I'd say that's kind of the why I thought of him for that. Um a lot of the fear comes from uh you feel the fear that the main character causes, you feel also the fear that she's experiencing a lot of the book. Even as a demon herself.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, that's tough when there's that like strong power dynamic. Um it's cool if you do uh capture that. What is the setting in your book that you'd least want to be trapped in?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Ooh, definitely the fear island um that most of the book takes place on. Um just the the being messed with by the multiple different gods, demonic entities. Um I already have nightmares and I already have had a lot of paranormal experiences, and yeah, I I don't need that level of excitement in my life, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

That's so funny. I find whenever we talk to horror authors, everyone says, I already get so many nightmares, and I'm like, that must be terrible. I'm like, I'm also a big baby. Like, wake up, pull the sheet over top, this will save me.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Definitely hide under my own bed, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Um what is the trope that did most of the heavy lifting in your book?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I would say off the top of my head, enemies to lovers. Um, it is a horror romance, so there is a very strong romantic sub thought. Um, by choice, by design. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Would you say that if you're reading, you're leaning more towards an enemies to lovers? Is that what you prefer?

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Um, I'm very into the grumpy sunshine, which is also in this, and hurt comfort. Um those two are definitely what I'm reading. I love a good hurt comfort. If you can make me cry and feel something, you are the most impressive storyteller to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Oh, 100%. Like handing a book to a friend, like you definitely have to read this book. Oh, is it a good book? It's emotionally damaging. Here you go. I would like to share this experience with you. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

I need to start a support group. Exactly. I'm sharing yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I need the support, and I need you to join my support group. All right, let's jump into your book, The Demon to Your Right. When this idea first formed in your head, what were you most curious to explore about it?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I think I was definitely looking for how do these two women end up together? Like, where from where they're starting with the cat and mouse chase game and enemies to how do we get to lovers? Just the um I was interested to see how that would unfold. I knew where I wanted to go with it, I just didn't know what the journey would look like. Like I'm just as interested as future readers um at the time of where this goes and how it gets there.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Was this your first book that you wrote in in general, or did you start by writing other books and this was the first one that got published?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

I started out in fanfiction actually. Um I've been writing big fan. I'm a huge fanfiction nerd. Um I've been writing since 20. I feel like 2012, 2014. Um, I wrote my first book during a huge chronic pain flare in I think it was 20, somewhere 2020 to 2021. Um and that was the first book I was going to publish. Um, I did a lot of study in grad school on celebrity empathy and people working in the entertainment industry. Um so I started writing there, and then just based on chronic pain, state of the world, I got really interested in just horror paranormal. Um I'd always watch like ghost shows, but this is definitely the first book I've written in horror. I have a lot of manuscripts, but um just a couple in horse.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Do you think you're ever gonna publish that first book?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Um, I think so. Uh it's a little bit on the back burner right now because it is the first one I wrote. Um, I do have three books for it. Um, three installments, but I've written things that I love more time has gone on. So um maybe one day.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Well, I look forward to I'll keep an eye out for it. But yeah, sometimes that uh first idea isn't always the best idea, and then you get to the fifth, sixth, and you're like, oh, there it is! There it is right there.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Perfect. Um yeah, I was looking at the first one, I'm like, is this too much hurt? And then is there enough comfort?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Personally, is there ever too much hurt?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

I don't think so either. Um, what did you come to define? Or sorry.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

My sentence doesn't make sense. One second.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

All right. How did you come to define humanity while writing this story?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

I guess um I wanted to reflect the reality of what I saw of humanity. That's kind of the other it isn't good or evil. Um and trying to put a lot of hope into the book, or that your circumstances can change, and even if you feel like something dark that you could try to make other choices um grow as a person still. No matter what's happened to you, no matter where you've come from. What I saw in humanity in this book. Because it does start in a very dark place.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

I can definitely relate to that. Sometimes it's really hard to pull yourself out of that dark place, but I definitely agree with you that you know there's always that opportunity tomorrow to pull yourself out.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah, and sometimes you just need that reminder coming from somewhere external. Um, so it's hard when you're trapped in your own world.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Oh, definitely. Did you find that like COVID and being trapped in your I don't know how your COVID experience was, but I was definitely trapped in my own mind and it caused many issues that I was able to work out later on. But do you think that that was I guess an aiding factor in um producing this piece of literature?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

I would say COVID was a very strange time for me because I had gotten severely disabled due to um chronic pain issues and I needed spine surgery and was just waiting for it. And then um during the spine surgery journey, also going through septic shock and almost dying. Um, so I would say that my experience was I was trapped anyway, and it was interesting that the rest of the world was trapped with me. Um I it was actually a very I was very grateful. Um, and I did feel a little guilty about that, that like friends and family were more available, that everyone was hanging out online, um, because I don't live close to like my friends or family. Um it was kind of nice that everyone was suddenly available when I needed them.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

I don't think that's anything to feel guilty about. You were you were able to make, you know, the best of a really bad situation. And I think that's amazing that that gift was given to you during an incredibly hard time. And I'm very sorry to hear that that happened to you. That must have been incredibly difficult, and I'm glad to see you're on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, definitely. Um writing has been a great way to just have a creative outlet and process everything, and I love that. And I wouldn't um change it for anything. I think it kind of guided me to where the best use of me is now, which is writing.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Do you write other stories while you're working on a oh my gosh, I almost said album. I apologize. While you're writing a book.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah, I how many do I work on at one time or while I'm publishing?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, like are you writing those mini stories or working on another book to help those uh to help get out of your own head?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah, definitely. I'm since I started publishing, I'm always publishing something. I'm always doing the edits, um, cover design, marketing for something. Um, marketing, I guess, the debut right now, still. And then as I'm about to push out my second book, I've already started the editing process for my third book. Um, yes, I am writing um a new book now as well, as well as finishing up other manuscripts I had started. I actually just completed two yesterday that were sitting in my lap for like two years. I'm like, I just need the ending.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

You know, sometimes it just comes to you, right? I do art and I'll sit on a painting for a year and then one day it's like I found it! I found the solution. I'm so glad I didn't do this a year ago because it never would have been as good, right? So that's amazing that you were able to finish two yesterday. Wow, you deserve a little applause for that. I'm gonna treat myself for that. Absolutely you do. That is a huge moment. Treat yourself. Go get like a little ice cream or something.

unknown 13:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Um, Demon to your right blends sapphic romance, horror, and paranormal darkness. What drew you to that particular combination and what felt most important to protect while working across those genres? So we can start with number one and I can remind you of the second question. So that for quote uh yeah, the first question was what felt most oh sorry, what drew you to that particular combination?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Sure. So um just being a static lesbian person myself. Um that's definitely the view I see the world through. Um horror definitely came in with my lived experience around the time, um, with chronic pain, chronic illness, um, flirting with death, all of that stuff. Um also came from a place where I grew up watching a lot of paranormal with um some of my relatives, and it was just really interesting, um, as well as experiencing some things myself, which some are entertaining and some would like to forget. And the romance piece, I just love a good heart comfort. That's what drew me to that, and just pulling them together. I don't know, this idea just kind of smacked me in the face, and I just wanted to see where it went. I wanted to read this book, so I had to write it for myself.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Amazing, and then it was good enough that you could share it with the rest of us. Thank you. We're sorry, not to like ask you about age, but are you a millennial?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yes, is it obvious?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Well, I mean, I am too, so game recognizes game, but I feel like when you were talking about growing up watching paranormal stuff, I was like, I definitely there was like a weird obsession with paranormal stuff on TV when we were growing up, I feel like. I'm thinking back, I'm like, oh, the history channel was all just ghosts.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Um and Ouija boards and funny definitely. My my mother was never happy that I had one in the house, but my grandmother gave it to me actually, because she played with it like them when she was younger, and she's like, Oh, these are just such a fun game. And then yeah, you know, you watch all this stuff and you're like, maybe it's not a good idea to play with the rest of the house.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

I mean, you know, the universe kind of gives you what you're looking for. So when you open that door, it's gonna prove you right. So what I was asking for. Um, and then that second question was what felt most important to protect while working across those genres.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

I think protecting just taking care of the character the main characters um was very important to me. Was um I'm not good at killing anyone off who's a main character that I care a lot about. So just kind of making sure that they were safe and cared for. I think that's the secondary character comes in and really cares for the main character. Um, in a way that that person had never experienced before. I think that also gives that little layer of hope to anyone reading it. Um that there are people out there that do care about you, that would ride for you, fight for you. Um and just kind of being open to when that comes or um or maybe even looking for support. Um definitely also my characters are neurodivergent, so I felt very um sacred to protect that as well, to keep that always as realistic as I can from my own experience as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

That's so important. What a strong thing to uh when you're talking about finding someone to protect you um in a way that you haven't felt like that's such a I think a relatable topic that a lot of like obviously that a lot of people can relate to. Um and that's really amazing that you took the time and effort to protect that um as someone who can relate.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Very generational.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, right? You're like, does anyone actually care?

unknown 18:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

And the how do I make my the how do I get myself to care more as well?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Someone else has to show you that.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Oh, absolutely. And then we're just showing showing up for other people too, and it's just you know, a big cycle. Um, okay, we are gonna jump on that lively note, we're gonna jump into another game. Um, we're gonna pause. Okay, so this game is called space em or embrace them. In this game, you are carrying a cargo full of tropes and cliches through space when suddenly you get pulled into a black hole. You have to go through your supplies and get rid of some things in order to escape. The catch is you can only see two items at a time, and you can only escape once you get down to it uh uh to the number four. So I'm gonna give you the list. Wait, hold on. One second. I I read the rules and I'm like, I don't understand what we're all getting. Um uh did. Oh, I get it. So it's like a bracket. Perfect. Okay, so I'm gonna track this though. Or I'm gonna forget. Here we go. Um game. Okay. Haunted island or accidental soul binding.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Ooh. Don't love either of those. Um I guess just because I'm intrigued, Haunted Island.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Even though I said that's where I absolutely do not want to be.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Fear Island and Haunted Island feels different to me. Haunted Island seems like well, you might find something cool there. It's haunted, but not necessarily a bad thing. Fear Island, you're like, no. Good.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

I like that possibility.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

It's not necessarily a bad haunt thing. Um, immortal longing or love interest with dangerous secrets.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Uh, love interest with dangerous secrets. Immortality is too scary.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Isolation as a narrative engine or nightmares that feel personal?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Ooh. Um, I love nightmares that feel personal.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I am so happy for you with that. That sounds great. Um, all right, monsters who remember being human or romance under impossible circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I'm gonna have to go romance under impossible circumstances. I love that comfort at the end. But it has to have the comfort piece.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Oh, definitely. You're like, how are they gonna get together? And then they get together and you're like, there's something fight in this world. Um exactly. Uh salvation that comes with strings attached, or horror rooted in emotion.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Ooh, I love emotion. Horror rooted in emotion.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Perfect. Alright, so I'm gonna read these last five, and you've got to get rid of one.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Okay, so we have the hold on, here we go. Haunted Island. We have the love interest with dangerous secrets, we have the night. Nightmares that feel personal. We have the romance under impossible circumstances and horror rooted in emotion. What are we not bringing?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Uh, let's not bring the island.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Gone. Get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Have your second thoughts. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

I like it. I think we ended up with a good four. I think you'll make it through that black hole, okay? Yeah, just a little scarred. Just a little bit. It's fine, aren't we all? Yeah. All right. Um, back to your book. So writing, reading, and craft. You've studied counseling, trauma-informed care, and intercultural communication. How do those frameworks influence the kinds of stories you're drawn to tell?

SPEAKER_02 22:51

It definitely pulled me into that pulling in perspectives of people who aren't normally thought about. Um, in grad school, I studied the people working in entertainment industry and the mental health challenges that put on them, as well as I was very fascinated from personal experience with um mental health challenges that international and study abroad students go through that I first saw in friends of mine and then got to experience myself when I went and studied abroad.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Um so wow, it sounds like you've had a lot of experiences that not everyone should have to experience all together at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

I would say it's given me a lot of um a lot to draw from for writing. And I feel very grateful for that. And yeah, it's just a way to reframe, as we're talking about counseling, reframe uh those experiences into something that is useful and positive. Yeah, there's a lot to draw on and try to get others to feel empathy for different situations they might have not been a part of.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

I really liked what you said at the beginning of putting focus on people that aren't normally thought of. What a powerful statement. And I just wanted to recognize that because I feel like not a lot of people even consider that these days, and it's just a really beautiful way to encompass everyone. So I just wanted to recognize that because I really loved it and I wrote it down.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

I don't appreciate that. It was me actually fumbling with the term, centering the margins. I was like, what is that? Great.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

No, yeah, it wasn't so people in.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah, thank you. I that was an accident.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

I'm just gonna make sure I write it down properly. Okay. Perfect. And this is recorded, so it's in there forever. Cool. Um, you've shared that you started writing to survive anxiety and continue as a chronically disabled writer. What does writing give you now that it didn't when you first began?

SPEAKER_02 25:22

I would say when I first began, it was it was a coping mechanism for the stress and anxiety of just job searching in general. Um, and now it is the best, I would say, coping mechanism I have at my disposal when I can't do other ones with um chronic disability and illness. Um it seemed to be I did have two years postseptic shock where I couldn't even really look at a screen, watch TV, watch a movie. Um, kind of felt like I was going insane because I couldn't even write. So I think it also just made me more grateful than anything that I can do something now and I can write now. Um and it's I think developed more from a coping strategy into just the career I felt like I was always meant to go to. And I just needed a push, a very aggressive push by taking everything else away.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Hey, I get that sometimes the universe is like this way, okay, over here. Um, when you wrote, uh, because I'm assuming you were writing like by hand these books to start out with while you were in pain because you couldn't look at a script.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Um you turn the brightness all the way down or you don't look at it, and you hope that you're typing correctly.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah. Um, who knows? I a lot of edits went into um this book. A lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

I mean, all books should have a lot of edits. There's some books that I'm like, you didn't have enough edits.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

I agree. That's actually one of my pet thieves recently is under-edited. Um, just from everything, from the developmental, like the plot and the story to the character development, the relationship development. I'm like, where where is it? I want that gritty, I want that detail.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Oh, completely agree. I think the thing that gets me the most is like just if a description of something changes. I was reading this book once, and this girl was wearing this necklace, and it started out that the necklace was a rectangle, and then the necklace was a circle, and then the necklace was a ring, and I was like, I need I need you to pick and it wasn't like purposeful either. Oh god, I still think about it, it still bothers me.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

I was like, ooh, is there ever a reason that it kept shifting? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

I all because I looked for it. I was like, oh, maybe no. Okay, I know. Missed opportunity though.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah, that hey, you can work that in. Exactly cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Um to be fair, there's plenty in my work. To be fair, like when I'm editing through stuff, yeah, there's stuff that comes up that we find right like that. It's like, no, this person had this colorized. Like incorrect. Fix it.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah, I'm my cousin is actually writing a book and he gave me his like alpha copy, so the very first copy, and he's having me read through it and like all an amazing writer, but yeah, you can see where it's like, we're you said we were on Monday, but now we're on Sunday, and tomorrow was Wednesday, so I don't know if you know this.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

I'm sure you're they really appreciate your help. It's so important to get all the help you can get.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Um it's hard. It is hard. It's hard. Yeah. It's hard to find someone that you can trust to to show your soul to. I feel like writing is so personal.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, I definitely I'm also my uh wife is just so good at grammar and spelling.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

And it's hard to find other editors that can match her, to be honest. Um, she does not have the time to be editing all my stuff, and um, I'm always like, but you're the best person there is. I can't find any else.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, that's fair. I'm not great at spelling and grammar, wasn't great at English class, but I can follow the storyline and point at all the problems in your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

That's my favorite editing. I love developmental, like I love that. That's my favorite. I love editing like that too.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Um horror often asks readers to sit with discomfort. As a writer focused on empathy, how do you decide how far to push the readers and when to offer them softness instead?

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Ooh. I I think I'm always trying to push the hurt, actually. Um, I don't feel like I've gotten to my potential with crafting hurt yet. Um I have had beta readers clue me into areas where it's like you need a little more softness, so there needs to be a little more humor infused in certain areas to make the whole thing not so heavy. Um but at the same time, heavy is kind of a lot of what I go for with the hurt so that the comfort's a huge payoff. But yeah, it's uh kind of rely on other people telling you, hey, too much happened in this chapter. This is really dark. I need a I need a break before we continue.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Why do you feel like you lean into those drawn-out sessions of hurt?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Personally, like I love the endorphins that come from the comfort chaos. So it feels like the more of a journey and a challenge you went through with the main characters, just the better it feels when it resolves. Kind of like in romance when they finally kiss. It just feels so good. Um, that's how it feels for me with the hurt comfort and like the horror to the crescendo of like the scariest piece, and then it kind of um in mind goes off into trying to find that romance happy ending.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Do you how do I say this? Do you always write a happy ending?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And do you want to not write a happy ending?

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Do I always write a happy ending? Currently, yes. Have I considered not? At times, yes. Um with one of my manuscripts, I'm working on like the book two, and I honestly don't know how I would get it to a happy ending from where I'm starting. So I will say that's a challenge I'm on right now. Is will it be a happy ending? Will it be my first not happy ending? Actually, um Do I want to not write a happy ending? Not really. Because I feel like everyone needs that hope. And you'd kind of hope that as you go on and as you keep going on, eventually you find some kind of happiness. Or happy enough.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

That's true. I guess you did speak about how there's always that chance for hope around the corner. So I could see why you don't want to not have a happy ending.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Yeah, I don't really I wanna give that to my readers, not kind of like take that hope away. Like, oh yeah, everything's scary and dark and terrible, and that's it. I I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Thanks. I remember the first non-happy ending I read, and my friend had recommended it to me, and I think I called her like screaming. I was like, why? Are you kidding me? Like, no, uh god, it just I don't know. These they don't feel finished.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Yeah, the I remember my first one, it was a fan fiction, and I actually wrote the author like a full paper, like multiple page paper about why they shouldn't kill off the character. Um, and funny enough, they went on to write more of the book and then write two books and then get it published because it's uh it was a fan fiction. But yeah, I was like, you you can't. And here, let me try to persuade you as to why it's more impactful to not do that. Um, but yeah, I actually kind of bullied an author into finishing and not killing their character because I was so passionate that no, there this could there could be more hope here.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

That's fair. You were wrong! Write it this way.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Well, uh to their creative expression. I was like, I I just I think there's so much more here, and this book is so deep in feeling. Um, and there's I think you have more to say to be honest. Not just I want a happy ending, like uh just the there's just more here.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Definitely, there's more to dig out. If it's not happy, then it's not the end. I think there's a quote like that. Something like that. I don't know, helps people, you know, get through stuff. Um, we have another game. Excellent. So this game is literary would you rather? So similar to the other one, but this one's slightly different. Um, so would you rather write the monster or become the monster?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Ooh, definitely write the monster. Um I don't want to deal with the actual emotional fallout of becoming the monster.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Completely agree. Completely agree. I've dealt with monsters. I don't want to do that to other people.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yeah, like I don't want to actually hurt anyone. Like hurt comfort. I'm gonna I'm gonna make it better in the end, I promise.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

You're gonna be fine. I will get you there.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Uh hold your hands.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Catharsis or ambiguity?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Catharsis. Uh I think there's a theme here. I'm just gonna make it all better improvement.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Quiet dread or all-consuming fear.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Ooh. I'm trying to think of like in what context. Um in writing, I would rather have all like a all-consuming fear vibe. Um, and bring that about. It's horror. I that's fair. I think it's lean in yeah, the genre characters who run or characters who stay? Characters who stay. It makes it way more interesting. Um, and there are definitely a few instances of that in my book. Where even if they kind of want to run, they're challenging themselves to stay. And I love that.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

That's fair. It's like, you know, you're watching horror movies and you're like, why don't you just leave the cabin? And it's like, well, then we wouldn't have a movie.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

So well, also like not abandoning people, leaving people behind. Oh, that's true. You'd hope.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

You'd hope, maybe. Um, emotional wounds or physical danger.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Um, emotional wounds, just because I feel more practiced in handling that. So I guess I've also experienced emotional danger, but I'd rather deal with emotional wounds. I feel like it's easier to work through.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

That's wild given you've had some pretty significant physical danger.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

As I'm saying it, I'm like, it's all trauma. It's all trauma.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Like, what's the thing I want to do today? Picking emotions.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

I think that's actually where my brain went. I was like, I already died. Let's no, that was that was extremely painful. Let's go to the emotional pain. That was a little less painful.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

I yeah, love that for you. Yeah, hey, it's honestly the easier way out.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

It's like, you know what, this is a lot easier. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

That's fair, but that's a nice way to think about like your emotional wounds having an end.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah, are you or you just you learn how to cope with it, um, or what what helps you specifically versus like what I've learned is a lot of chronic health and pain issues. A lot of times um, there's really not much help. Um, it just it is what it is versus the other ones, there are still things you can do for emotional. You can get support. Um yeah, I think there's more hope emotional coming.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

That I'm so glad you had that experience. That is so great. Uh love as salvation or love as risk.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Love is risk. I don't love should not save, like actually save you from anything. Um I love the love itself is risk. Um, putting yourself out there, trusting someone else to not hurt you, or to have your best interests, um, and to help you love yourself, like love yourself, see yourself the way they do. Um, yeah, I think love is exciting, it's risky, and can be really worth it if it's healthy. But it shouldn't like save you.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Definitely. That actor that just passed away, the uh Dr. McSteamy, did you see that?

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Oh no, I thought I thought Catherine O'Hara.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Oh yeah, no, this was like last week. Um he had a quote about in the show, um telling someone you love them like anyway, and yeah, just relating that to what you said, like, yeah, it's a risk, but what if it pays off? And if it doesn't, then you got that and you can move on.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah, and definitely the I don't know who said it, but something to the same effect when I was younger that really stuck with me about the you don't know when it's someone's like last day. So yeah, say it anyway.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

That always stuck with me.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Like tell people that you love them, tell them that you're proud of them and what they mean to you. I've always been a dig into doing that with like my friends and family, um, out of nowhere. Um, kind of known for that. It's like a random message of that I love you and I'm proud of you. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

I would die for that. That sounds really amazing. That's amazing that you do that. I'm sure that you're a bright spot in a lot of people's lives.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Um, it it's because like those friends and family that get those, it's like they moved me and they've been that for me, and it's just me trying to give back. Just me trying to be like, hey, I also love you, and like you mean so freaking much to me, and you have really impacted my life, and I just feel like telling you that on a random Tuesday because I don't know, I thought of you.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

I am gonna steal that.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, please go tell people you love them, like anytime you think of them. It makes them so happy.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

It's true. Do you ever message people that just pop into your mind? Like, I just was thinking about that random person, and then you like check up on them.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

I'm totally the person to always continue a conversation that hasn't been happening for a long time. So yeah, it'll be that like I'll just start the text like we've been texting, and it'll have been like yeah, six months. Uh, I have a friend who's in medical school, and like, yeah, I texted her the other day, like something random, like we had been talking, and um, I love that she just continued the conversation, like it wasn't that we hadn't been talking in a while or that we'd both been busy. It was yes, that silly stupid thing you sent me. Yes, I understand, and like we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

That's so oh I love that too. Um one haunted setting or many fleeting ones.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Ooh. I think many fleeting ones is just more interesting, um, and also uh hopefully easier to deal with because of the fleeting nature.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Okay, it's gone. And it's gone. That was just quick, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

That's how I prefer my paranormal experiences. Like, oh, I saw that thing. I'm gonna hope it wasn't real, or like I'm gonna move on from it, and we can use it in a book later.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

I've done a lot of that.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Uh a hopeful ending that hurts, or a bleak ending that comforts.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Hopeful ending that hurts. Those will sound dark. Um that's a really tough question. I like the the hopeful ending that hurts, but I'm a little bit scared what that would look like, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah, I'm trying to compare it to an experience like a book or TV show that would relate to that. Oh my god. Gosh. Hopeful ending that hurts. I mean, is that just the added emotional pain? That like even though it can go on, you're still crushed on the inside. Is that what that means?

SPEAKER_02 44:19

I would I would I feel like that's kind of like the hope of the next season, right? Like I was thinking of like Agatha and I was like, oh yeah, like sad, but like hopeful in that maybe there's more kind of like anything like that, any season that you're like, okay, well, that hurt, but I have hope because is it over? Are you sure? Is there more to say? Any book TV show? You hope there's a second one sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Definitely. Sometimes you hope that they end.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Well, if it's like a really, really long show that's been like 19 seasons, yeah, sometimes you hope they end. These people have been through enough.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Um, writing what scares you or writing what soothes you writing what scares me.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

I love being pushed into um, I feel like that's what life is anyway. You can't really avoid it. And I think soothing's for after you take the journey. I like writing what scares me first, and sitting in that and that intensity, and then finding the soothing part later.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah, I guess you almost find that writing what scares you turns into writing what soothes you kind of like the same journey.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah, I do feel like a lot of writing what scares you is that process of processing it to get to soothing, to get it out of your system, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Definitely. I just discovered journaling. It's magical. It's like, oh, okay. Um a book readers interpret wildly differently or one they argue about.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Then interpret differently than the intention, I guess. Yes. I guess argue about. Um one that causes discussion, I think is like a good way to reframe that, and that I would be like happy with it. Um yeah, if there are topics that are brought up that cause real discussion to take place. Um, I'd love that more than just you completely missed the point of what I was going for, yeah, or what the author was going for.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Have you had that happen yet? Where people are like, oh, I got it this way, and you're like, no.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

Um one of my sisters actually. Yeah, there was some stuff in uh a manuscript that um a lot of the betas just connected with, and I think it was based on lived experience and finding the right readers, right? And my sister had not had that experience and didn't relate to it, and I was like, wow, you just get sometimes it was just that oh you missed the point. Um, but yeah, it's all based on the user's experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

That's true, yeah. But I love that about books. Sometimes they give people well, they give people the other perspective, even though they haven't maybe had that personal experience. They're having it by reading the book.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Definitely what I aim for, um, for sure. That even if you haven't had any of these experiences, that it could still make you empathetic to trying to understand them or wanting to understand them.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Definitely. Um, so we have some final chaotic sleepover questions. They sound fun. Um if honestly, they sound like a good time. Uh if demon to your right were a late night snack eaten straight out of the pantry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Oh, that is a very good and difficult question.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

Um it's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

I want to say something like super, super sour. Um, so it'd be like challenging. Um, I don't know what that would be, but yeah, some kind of like rare, super sour candy that like is a big challenge to like eat with your friends and so you can like survive it.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

That's fair. And then you get the candy afterwards, so it's comforting. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah, once the sour kind of wears off like a sour skittle, you're like, okay, now it's good. Now I'm here. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Um, be honest, what would your cats absolutely judge you for as a writer?

SPEAKER_02 49:16

What don't they already judge me for? Is the question. Um, as a writer, I mean, definitely the who needs to have the chair, honestly, um, as a writer. Just the mom doesn't need the chair, I need the chair right now. Um, mom says it's for work, says it's for a career. Same with the laptop. Like, no, I need to lay on the laptop. Like the judgment of me thinking that I would be important enough to take priority of the things in the house. I think that's what my cats judge me for. Like, who do you think you are? No, you clean my litter box, you pet me. Um, yeah, I think that's it. Like the audacity, that's what they that's what they judge me for being a writer. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

I love that about cats in general. They really just take you down a notch.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Oh, yeah. They keep you humble. I keep you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Dogs just love you no matter what. I have three dogs, but man, being around a cat, you're like, please love me.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

I I'm like, I don't know what that says about me, but I prefer that kind of love. I love working for it. Um yeah, definitely like we have a dog, we have two cats, and my eldest cat is like the light of my life. And yes, it's always the like, please spend some time with me. I love you. Like, will you give me a little bit of your attention?

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Or your acceptance.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Okay, this is super off topic, but I read once that um the Egyptian pharaohs kept kept cats around because they needed it as like a a reminder that they weren't like all that. They like kept them humble. So they kept them around. It was like a tradition.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

I love that. I love Egyptian stuff.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Right? I love that too. I'm like, and it worked. I mean, it's still the yeah. Um, okay. If Demon to your right showed up to a sleepover as a person, what would everyone immediately clock about them?

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Ooh, but they have a hidden agenda. Um I love probably to cause nightmares and everyone there. But yeah, just kind of like that person walks in the room and you feel it, the air kind of crackle, it gets cold, and you're like, something's off. Um, and someone brought that in with them, that kind of air of there's something going on here, a little nefarious.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

And I'm uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Like I'm sleeping with one eye open tonight. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

I'm sleeping with the lights on.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Exactly.

unknown 52:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Uh, what unhinged unhinged opinion about books or writing would get you kicked out of a group chat?

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Ooh, I don't I don't think it's unhinged, but the one I I have right now is that books have to have a plot. I cannot stand a book that doesn't have a plot. Like it can have spice, it can be erotica, it still has to have a plot. That is, um, I'm sure in certain group chats that would get me kicked out very quickly. But that that is my pet peeve right now.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I think that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Because like I just would assume that all books have a plot. I thought so too.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

I I started arcing. Um, I tried to get back into books after years in fanfiction of only reading fanfiction. I'm like, where is the plot? Like, where is the depth and where's the journey? That's what I'm looking for when I'm reading. And if I don't have it, um, I just get really sad. It's not even just DNFing. It's like, oh well, like I wanted to go on this. I wanted to go on your journey.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Right?

unknown 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

I've I've read a few books that I'm like, but this was almost a good book. It was so close. You just you just missed it by just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Um I I feel like that and that comes down to like the finding a really good editor, because you can tell so many books have such a good story to be told, and you're like, oh, you just you just need that person to help you push.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Definitely.

unknown 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Did you find that um fanfic has more plot than books? Is that kind of what you I just wanted to clarify that?

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yeah, I do personally, at least the ones I've read, um, which you know are probably like the top ten in different fandoms. Um, and there's a reason why they're the top, and then later finding out a bunch of uh the top writers have gone and done creative writing degrees and all of these things. Like a lot of them are professional writers, actually. Um, yeah, I find there's a lot of the the hurt comfort is just so detailed and thought out and pushes boundaries and the journey of the plots. Um, and I think part of that's just taking the time because a lot of them write a chapter a week or a chapter a month um to varying word counts. But when I write, I write in huge bursts. But yeah, I think there is something about the art of really sitting in your story for like really focusing on a chapter. I really aspire to that and I am inspired by that in fanfiction and how people do that. I don't I don't know how they sit with it for so long, but it creates magic.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

That's awesome. What an amazing perspective. Never really thought about it that way. Um If Demon to your right had a completely unnecessary merch item, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 55:07

It's really funny you bring that up because I started looking into merch.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Amazing, amazing. What's the yeah?

SPEAKER_02 55:15

I was making book plates and accidentally um it was you know, one of the printing companies was like, here's your design on other things, and I'm like, oh, these are just cool looking. Um like super unnecessary though. Um I don't my brain just said an umbrella, like the logo of the like the book cover on like a portion of an umbrella. I don't know, it'd be like it probably would fit with like the creepy sad mood of being out in the rain. Maybe it should be super pointless.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

I mean, but how many people really see the top of your umbrella unless you're like holding it back?

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Like you have it printed on the inside just so you can see it as you're walking around.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Just so happy just thinking about your favorite book.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Yeah, so you could have all of your favorite, like I guess however many. I don't know how many is in an umbrella. Oh my gosh, it's pointless.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

I love that. We're patenting that right now. No one steal that million dollar idea. Internal book fans on the inside of an umbrella.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah. Like useless, but it makes you happy.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

I love that. There's lots of things that are useless that make me happy, so um, if you had to describe demon uh uh demon to your right using only vibes, no plot, no genre, what are we working with?

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Ooh.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

Um vibes, dark, darkness.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Um sprinkles of like warm fuzzies here and there, just so it doesn't get like too dark that you feel like hope could never exist. Um vibes, definitely useless lesbians. There's a lot of that in I think all of my work. I love that trope.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I'm sorry, I need you to explain it.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Useless lesbians, useless lesbians, where like it's like when two women clearly like each other and everyone can tell, but they don't know how to go for it, or like even communicate or talk. Um, I feel like that is shown in a lot of not just sapphic books, but in my work in particular, because I love that trope of just the just go for it, just say something to her, or like, oh my god, obviously you both like each other. Um, so I love that. Those are vibes for sure. That you're like, okay, come on. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 57:47

That's so funny. I've never heard that before. That was great. Um if demon to your right were a sound you hear at 2 a.m., what noise is it and why is it unsettling?

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Ooh, I'm gonna steal two that happened while I was uh writing it.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Oh my gosh, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

So I have just a plain sheep um table and chairs from like somewhere like Walmart. And it's silent all day long. But when I'm riding in the middle of the night, it creaks like someone's standing on it. Um so I think that just like subtle enough, but obvious enough um creaking that you know it's not anything that it's not the house shifting. Um, you're not like it's my cat making a noise. It's that it's here. Um, it wants you to know it's here, but it's it's subtle. It doesn't need to be huge and loud to be scary. It can just be enough of a sound.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

I can't wait to think about that later when I'm laying in bed. It's so kind of you.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Sorry, it's my stupid well, just stay away from your table and your couch, and you're good.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

A little creak, and you're like, hello.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

And like repeatedly, and you're like, okay, I get it. Please stop. I heard you. I'm going to bed now.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

What do you want?

SPEAKER_02 59:21

A lot of times I think it's just telling me to go to bed. I'm like, okay, fine. I quit.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

That's so funny. My internet used to go out at like 11:30 every night for no reason. And it would like go out and then like come back on. And I was like, okay, guys.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

I feel like what is it about this time that's so special?

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Every single time. It's ridiculous. Um, well, that is a wrap on this stream of Booked All Night. We'd love for you to be part of the conversation. So don't forget to rate the show, drop a comment, subscribe, and leave some fan mail. But before we go, um, I would love for you to plug your socials, where can we find you, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Sure. Um my author website is stories by kelp.wordpress.com. Um, I'm most active on Instagram at Kelpie was here. Um, I'm also on TikTok, Real Kelpie. And yeah, I think that's where I'm most active, Marie can find me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Amazing. And just to uh one more thing, I guess to finish it off. Is there anyone you would like to thank that really helped you uh through the journey of writing this book or just your journey of writing in general?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Yeah, definitely. Um, and I'm kind of surprised that I haven't uh gotten there yet. But my wife actually, um, for all of the countless hours that she listened to me say every single one of my manuscripts out loud multiple times, the hours and hours of editing and re-editing and re-editing, listening me cry um over the next cover I created for my next book. Took me over a hundred plus hours because I created it on an adjusted screen, couldn't get the colors back to where I wanted them. I don't know what I'd do without her. These books exist because of her.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

I love that. Well, thank you to your wife as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Thanks for staying up with us. Follow us on Instagram and threads at bookedallnightpod. Drop a comment to let us know what you thought of today's show, and join our Discord server for giveaways, excerpts, and more. It's still in the works, but we're aiming for 100 members. Catch our live author interviews on YouTube and leave a question for our guests on our Discord server. Check out our shop and website at bookedallnight.co. And if you're loving the chaos, don't forget to rate us five stars. Until next time, book list. Remember to stay booked all night.