I Want Another Gold Star - Katabasis, Part 2

Disaster strikes when Katy's bookmark gets put back in the wrong place, so Jess has to hardcore recap Part 2 of R. F. Kuang's Katabasis (with a snooty "ahhh" sound, we've learned). But in the process, they still discuss a ton of crafting notes, realistic communication of abuse and suicidal ideation, the lies we tell ourselves to get through bad situations, and the greatest paradox of all: whether or not academia boils down to our desire to be recognized.   

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Hosts: Jessica Mary, K. Leigh, Magdalyn Ann, and Julia, with special guest Baron.

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Transcript

Jessica Mary 0:04

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot tapes we craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess.

Intro 0:10

I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for unhinged hot takes.

Jessica Mary 0:15

A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shame. Grab your blankets, booklets. It's time to get booked all night. We're your hosts. I'm Jess. And I'm Kaylee. And on tonight's episode of Booked All Night, we are continuing our talk on Catabases by R.F. Quang. We are about to dive into chapters 13 through 2 4. So if you are not caught up, hit pause and come back later. We'll be here, I promise. And if you are caught up, or you just don't care about spoilers, then just keep listening. As a heads up, we will be talking about suicidal ideation, sexual assault, and child death. Please skip this episode if you need to. I would like your initial thoughts, including from the beginning, because you weren't here with us last week to discuss things, and I know a big thing that Maggie and I both kind of hindered on was the amount of philosophy that was in there. I'm kind of curious about your thoughts about those big philosophical discussion sections.

K. Leigh 1:20

I actually enjoy it. And I think it's because I've only read Yellow Face by this author, right? Which is a completely different genre. Um I did not read Babel or Babel or however you want to pronounce it.

Jessica Mary 1:37

Um wherever you are, pronounce it how it goes.

K. Leigh 1:40

Yes. Uh because I was watching a TikTok on how RF Kwang uh pronounces this book as well.

Jessica Mary 1:48

Katabasis or something like that. Like, no. Yeah, I'm like, I refuse.

K. Leigh 1:53

She said she said she was saying catabasis, because that's your initial thought on how to um to pronounce it, but apparently people told her, no, it's katabasis.

Jessica Mary 2:05

So Yeah, it's it's Greek as producer Rob lets us know. And uh no, I refuse.

K. Leigh 2:11

Yes.

Jessica Mary 2:11

I refuse to pronounce it any other way.

K. Leigh 2:14

Yeah. So now you're refusing to pronounce it correctly, huh? Um Yes, that's right. I refuse. But I I and I was texting you this, right? So I saw a few reviews uh online and they weren't very positive. And one of them was from Reddit, and it said, How can you make a 500-something page book about a journey through hell so boring? And I was thinking about it, right? So if you go into this expecting an adventure, a journey through hell, plot, you know, twist after twist, and and person and god, like, you know, battling like scene after scene after scene, then yeah, I'd be disappointed. But I think I barely read the synopsis when you posted it for when we were gonna read it.

Jessica Mary 3:08

As both you and Maggie are want to do, yes.

K. Leigh 3:10

I looked at it, and most books I try to just skim the back, or if I like the cover, just go into it completely blind. And I'm glad I did for this one, because if I was expecting that journey and adventure and you know, battle scene and all that, I think I would be disappointed, but because this is more of a dark academia romance in a fantasy setting, I think it's a lot more enjoyable that I didn't know exactly what it was about.

Jessica Mary 3:49

I also like to go in blind, which is funny because I'm the one that chooses most of the books on this podcast. But by the time we get to them, I've forgotten what they're about, right? Like I have a general idea, and it'll be like ketabuses. Uh, I just it hate I hate saying that. That just does not feel good in the mouth. You know? Uh like, oh, okay, it's a journey into hell, but like an academic approach, there's two students going. Okay, and that's my general gist of it. And I do that with everything because I don't want to be guessing how this is gonna go right from the get-go. I want to be grounded by the work and not by like the rumor mill or whatever or the back copy and things. But for this descent into hell, I I can understand if you're going into it looking for adventure and you're like, oh my god, there's no adventure. But at the same time, I I went looking for some of these reviews. I found a lot of them on Goodreads, and they're like, oh, the Inferno was better, and I'm like, okay, listen, uh, Dante's Inferno is a personal favorite piece of mine, but ultimately it is a guided tour of hell. Dante doesn't go in there fighting with a big sword, right? He he just he dies, he goes to hell, and Virgil is like, I shall show you everything there is to see. If you look to your left, you will see the unbaptized, and if you look to your right, you will see titties. Like, that's that that's it. You know, and then there are specific spirits that he meets, but it's not action-adventure. The same thing with many other pieces that are classics that keep getting referenced here, that are being used as guides about what happens to hell. They aren't these huge, like he has to battle his way through. Even Orpheus and Eurydice isn't he has to battle his way through. He he finds his way through hell, gets to Hades, makes his deal, and then ultimately fails his quest. But he's not like battling demons and trying to keep his eyes off of Eurydice. Like, so I think jumping into it with that where your ideas might be coming from a classical background is kind of like bullshit.

K. Leigh 5:57

Yeah. And I mean, I also really enjoy the blending of the cultures and religions. Like, for example, she sees that one lady Mingpo. Oh yeah. And the fact that they name, like, oh, the the the person who uh watches over the river and they and they name like all these different names from all these different cultures and religions. I really like that. I've always liked all different types of religion. I really like the study of religions and learning about cultures and religions, and I like how that intertwines. I like the fantasy world that they're building with analytical magic, logistics, language. Uh you have they they mention alchemy and the pentagrams, and I just I don't know. I really like the blending of everything.

Jessica Mary 6:48

I am very torn about it because one, I love the blending of it. I think the world building here is absolutely wonderful. And as someone who comes from like I was once an English major, and so I spent a lot of time in critical theory classes, you know, here here are the philosophies coming back to kind of come into my life, which is really nice. But at the same time, I feel like they slow down the pacing of the book a lot. Like where they come in, yes, we need the um information, but I feel like they go on for too long. And I said it to Maggie, and I'll say it again here. It reminds me of of Moby Dick, where you know, we're we're like, we're on a boat, we're doing some whaling, there's some there's some plot happening, and then there's like an encyclopedia passage about the whaling industry. Yes, and then we go back to and I I feel like that about these philosophy sections where like I agree, they're very interesting, and I really love them, and like the academic in me is is truly tickled pink, but the writer in me is like I have grasped this concept and I would like to move on. And then when we do move on, we get it in conversation.

K. Leigh 8:02

I agree. I think that they introduce it and then they keep building and building and building, and there's just a certain point where it's just like, okay, we get it. You could have given this to us a little bit earlier with that other passage. Absolutely, I completely agree. And I think that's one of the reviews that I saw was that someone said that they DNF'd it because it was too wordy. And I uh I do agree that sometimes it does feel wordy, but I I do generally enjoy that aspect of the world building and that we're getting Alice's background, we're getting Peter's background, we're getting uh Grimes' background, all in all these different scenes throughout the book, so it's not just here's all the exposition, and now we're going off to the journey.

Jessica Mary 8:52

Yeah. I also like where the flashbacks are placed because it does feel like if I were going on a journey and something happened that reminded me of something, that's where my memory would go. And so I think the flashbacks like that are placed really well to get the full story instead of like holding on to it until the end and not fully explaining.

K. Leigh 9:12

I think the part about Peter was very placed very well. And that after we get that information about Peter, it's like he's telling Alice. We're getting the flashback, but as we're reading this flashback and and his background, he's actually telling Alice what it is.

Jessica Mary 9:31

Yeah. So speaking of the plot things and not the philosophical things, I just want to go over the plot stuff that did happen. So we pick up, and Alice has chosen the continue on alone apple. And Peter's reaction is Chef's Kiss, which is just Alice, what the fuck? I just think I didn't mean to, you know, I what I was lost in thought, and I just picked up the wrong apple. And then they do have the first actionable piece. Really, I mean, like, they got chased by like the bone things on the beach, but like they just kind of like kicked them aside. They were a little-I don't feel like they were in danger, but like the weaver girl was terrifying. Yes. And she just like wraps them up and she's like, I'll love him. I love him forever. I'm like, oh no, no, ma'am. Uh, and then after that, right, we we get rescued by Elspith. Yes. And we learn that this was a former Grimes student who had killed herself. Yes. And she's a little batshit.

K. Leigh 10:37

A little, yes.

Jessica Mary 10:39

And we learn that she had died ten years before Alice went to Cambridge. We also learn from her that the Cripkeys are there, and so Peter's like, Who the hell are those? And Alice fills us in that the Cripkeys were the first people to be like, we're going to go to hell and come back. And their failure is what sparks what Elspeth called the Great Quest, which we'll talk about later. We learn that there's like all sorts of magicians because we kind of didn't get that before from Alice's point of view. Magic and magicians seemed purely academic, and so when we learn about the Cripkies, they're like stage magicians. I'm not going to talk more about them until later because I have a whole conversation about them. The courts that we have seen are Pride, Desire, Greed, and then we are currently in Wrath. Oh, and then we get trapped in an Escher staircase and we're dying, and Peter might have shoved her out of Hell's reality. And that's kind of where we We didn't end there, we ended with a flashback, but I want to talk about that flashback later.

K. Leigh 11:41

Let me just say this, because I wasn't here. I I know we shouldn't trust Grimes. Right? And I had a feeling before these these chapters that we read that maybe Alice and Grimes had a fling. Uh maybe she was in love with Grimes and Peter, and Peter was jealous of the relationship between Grimes and Alice, especially with the way he acted. Uh with that saying, Oh yeah, she's eating out of the palm of his hand, you know, whatever. And she spent time with him uh with Grimes alone in Venice. So like it's just there, right? Yeah, it's a possibility. And with Elspeth when she took her life, uh, I kind of had this thought that a lot of the advisees of Grimes who quit or kill themselves or disappear or whatever the case may be. I don't know if I'm remembering this right, but they're mostly women. I mean, I there was that guy who ran off with his pregnant girlfriend and all that stuff. Yeah, he he ran off to Canada specifically. Yes. Uh, to be with his pregnant girlfriend. I felt like Grimes, because he had done this before to other advisees, maybe had a hand in the suicide or the disappearance of a lot of his advisees, and it wasn't just the way he treated them. It was like, I thought maybe he murdered Elspeth.

Jessica Mary 13:06

I had a suspicion like that too, because of the tattoo on um Alice, because he experimented on her. And I'm like, of course, a lot of your mentees disappear if you are treating them like lab rats. Yes. But we we do come to find that it's not a fling that Alice and Grimes have that Grimes tried to essentially sexually assault her, and she had said no, and he came on stronger, and then Peter came in the room and saw that. Where was this? I must have missed that. It starts around the part where Peter tries to call her out and is like, Aren't you like in love with him or something? And she's like, I hate that man. You know, when he died, I felt like I could breathe. And then we get the memory of him sexually assaulting her, and Peter walks in before it gets too far, and she starts to wonder if she was even pretty enough for that, delicate and thin enough to attract that same attention. And favoritism was alright as long as it benefited her. She thought she was.

K. Leigh 14:07

So I skipped some so what I'm realizing now is remember how I said I thought I had six chapters left and I only read two?

Jessica Mary 14:14

Yeah.

K. Leigh 14:14

And I was at the mark? Yeah. I think my marking was wrong, and I picked up I skipped some chapters and picked up later.

Jessica Mary 14:23

Okay. Then let me fill you in. Professor Grimes sexually assaulted Alice.

K. Leigh 14:29

I was wondering why he turned so cold to her. And I never got that. Okay.

Jessica Mary 14:34

Yeah, so he he then turns incredibly cold, and she's like, This isn't fair, I didn't this shouldn't be my fault. And you know, she thinks things, there's actual quotes in there, that if Alice hadn't acted like a whore, that if Alice had been careful as Belinda had always been, she wouldn't be in this mess. And she could have weathered it all if it were not for Peter. She couldn't bear the way things had changed with Peter, because that was like her big friendship as far as she saw, because she obviously just like, you know, goes over her head. This whole section is Alice's internalized misogyny about being a victim of sexual assault. And it ends where she's finally worked up enough to tell someone and she has two separate conversations about it where she's like I gotta report him or something. And the one of the first conversations she has is with Helen Murray, who is like the big feminist at the college and runs the Women in Magic Conference at Cambridge, and instead of being a shoulder to cry on, she ends up having like a whole didactic speech ready to go about how you know you can't just be a feminist when it suits you. And it's the difference between a woman like me and girls like you is that we always understood the battle was never over. Your cohort has chosen to live like the rules don't apply to you, and it seems to work. I salute you girls, I support you, I wish I could have done the same, but you can't just cry wolf, and then I have some cut there. Would you like to go to the police, file a complaint? Would you like him reprimanded by the university, compelled to write you an apology? Would all of this make you feel better? And Alice comes to the conclusion, like if she reports anything, she's gonna get ousted from academia because this man's presence is a lot bigger than hers as a no-named graduate student, and it would ultimately hurt her career. And Helen continues further, you know, so it's C, it only hurts you to take this further. The best thing you can do for your career now is to forget it ever happened. Just, you know, confirming that academia is sexist and terrible, and after that, Alice's suicidal ideations get a lot worse.

K. Leigh 16:58

Okay. So I think I think I found what I skipped. When I picked up the book, like so I was reading, and it was they were on the boat with Elspeth, and she said, let's find basically the dialectic or the the paradox or whatever, and then she fell asleep. The true contradiction. And then all of a sudden we were I picked it up and we were on like the Escher stairs.

Jessica Mary 17:25

So I was Oh yeah, you skipped some stuff.

K. Leigh 17:28

Oh, I definitely skipped some stuff, and it looks like 18, 19, 20. Was it and then I think I picked it up at 22.

Jessica Mary 17:38

So that means you didn't see them do the Lyra's paradox to Elspeth.

K. Leigh 17:45

Nope. Yeah, I skipped 18 through 22. And and not again. I think it was because the way I had it bookmarked. And I think I think a little someone uh might have taken out one of my bookmarks. Oh no. That's fine, you can spoil it for me.

Jessica Mary 18:06

Okay, cool.

K. Leigh 18:07

I'm further in the book anyway.

Jessica Mary 18:09

Yeah. Okay, so I'll just spoil a bunch of shit. We come back and Alice has picked up the continue on alone apple. Right. And then we have the weaver girl who is truly terrifying, and she like wraps herself around Peter, and she's like, he's mine now, and I'll love him. I'll love him where you couldn't love him, and she's trying to get him out. And then we meet Elspeth. Yes. And we also get some lines around here, specifically this one, which was you could not, in effect, use magic to kill yourself. Alice knew this to be true. She had looked into the matter as it were, quote.

K. Leigh 18:53

Yes.

Jessica Mary 18:54

And I think that's pretty obvious that Alice has attempted to use magic to kill herself. But we also learned something in that the circle is fueled by the magician's life, and so if that ends, whatever magic they had going on also ends.

K. Leigh 19:14

Okay.

Jessica Mary 19:14

Which I think will be important for going after the Cripkies because they have a bunch of magical little things that Elspeth referred to as assistants, but they're the little bone constructs that are everywhere. The Cripkies of Memory. Yeah. That just like made me really sad because also throughout this section and throughout the first section, Alice has a lot of um what is it, L'appel du vide, right? The call of the void in psychology, where it's just like, what if I just jumped in the river and drowned? What if I just crashed my car into a tree? Like it and it just comes up very suddenly in the narrative. And I thought that was pretty well done for how that comes up in somebody's head, where it's just like, oh, I'm having a nice day, I'm out for a drive, I'm on my way to the library, I should crash my car. Like, where did that come from? You know, I need to like look around, like what what? So I appreciated that. We learn around this section that Grimes chased away a lot of students, like more than we were led to begin to uh believe.

K. Leigh 20:24

And I'm so happy that not that I missed it, but that you're explaining it because that was my my gut feeling, right? Like there had to be something more, and I know Elspeth alludes to it, and I know at the end Peter confirms it, but Grimes was stealing work from his advisees and publishing it as his own. And I and even then I was like, there still has to be something more. Like, I mean, it sucks, yeah, and what can you do? But like, what would drive these people other than you know, small criticism, small name calling, that would drive them to suicide or flinging or disappearing and never returning, or you know, like there has to be something huge.

Jessica Mary 21:13

Yeah, and I would say putting up with all the shit that he puts them through only to have your work credited to somebody else.

Speaker 2 21:21

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 21:22

Yeah, I would hit that low as well. And it's not like they would have a I think we're either in the late 60s or the early 70s. I am truly not sure what time period it is. Because it they mentioned the war, which would be like, you know, late 40s and 50s, uh, and then they do mention that throughout the 60s he had this work. And we also have the wave of feminism, so we're either in the late 60s or the 70s firmly, and I'm not quite sure what year it is.

K. Leigh 21:49

And I know that in the beginning notes, R.F. Quang said one of the publications she uses and mentions in the academia part of this, where like law. And Murdoch uh refer to the text was published in like 2003, but in this world it was published in the 60s.

Jessica Mary 22:07

Yeah.

K. Leigh 22:07

So that way she could be so that way she could use it.

Jessica Mary 22:11

So at the very least, we are not in a decade of technology. So we're not in a space where people are making a Reddit forum of I survived Grimes, right? They're not communicating to each other, they're not learning that everybody is having their work stolen. All they are getting is that Grimes is this prolific man. He keeps making these discoveries and contributing to the field, and it's not him doing it, it's the students there. So, like, he puts them through rigorous things. He experiments on them, he tells them that they're worthless, he screams at them, he hasn't pins them against each other. Yeah, he pits them right against each other and then steals their work. That's a lot of work. Graduate school is hard, y'all. If I went through all of that and then a professor took my book and published it as their own, I'd open a vein.

K. Leigh 23:10

I don't know. I would want revenge.

Jessica Mary 23:12

Well, I mean, like Oh, oh, Alice wants revenge. Alice outright states her plan is not to put him in a body, but to put him in what was left of him, which is like goop. And then she's like, and I would make him watch me achieve everything. But at the same time, she also keeps talking, like she idolizes him. Yes. And I'm getting annoyed with that because we learned what kind of man he is, and she's like, but he's great, and he's going to make me great, and everything he does is great. He's a great, great man. Great, great, great, great, great.

K. Leigh 23:50

I think it's one of those situations where when you're uh a little bit more extreme than this situation, but when you're around someone and you want them to like you and you do everything to make them like you, and then when you're away from them, you're like, you know what? This person's kind of shitty, and people know he's kind of shitty, and then you go back into their presence and you're like, Notice me, pick me, you know. Yeah, pick me some pie. Right. It's just one of those things where you know this person's toxic, you don't really care for this person, but every time you're around them, you want them to praise you and notice you.

Jessica Mary 24:30

Yeah. As somebody who went to grad school, I feel personally attacked by this entire book. But they talk about the abuse, but then right afterwards, they talk about like if they can get through it, they're worthy. If they can get through it, they can stand above everybody and look down on them and be like, I survived Professor Jacob Grimes and you didn't, and that makes me a better scholar, a better mu magician, a better everything. Where like even when they're working with them, the attitude is like, okay, I'm working with Grimes, so I'm making groundbreaking discoveries, and you're doing basics. Doesn't even matter, like, we never learn what anybody else is working on. We actually don't even learn what Grimes is working on, to be honest. Not until it's like he'd published Peter's paper, do we get something concrete about what was going on with it? Yeah. But the entire time, even when we first meet the other uh students, right? The the other like cohorts of of their class that are working with other professors, they all are like, you're working with Grimes, oh my god, I can't believe that you're so good to work with him, or that you're putting yourself in that position to go through that. You're a wonder, you're a genius, you're amazing, you're a golden child, and like, yeah, man, I would I would love to have my ego fluffed like that.

K. Leigh 25:55

Right, but at what cost, right? Yeah. So much trauma and uh suicidal thoughts and tendencies and a lot of mental health issues. So many. So many.

Jessica Mary 26:09

There's there's a line in there where where they're with Elspeth, it I thought it was really funny, and she's like, Don't take this the wrong way, but like you're really fucked up, aren't you?

K. Leigh 26:17

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think she said that to Alice.

Jessica Mary 26:22

Yeah. She's like, you're you're both like, eh, right? Yeah. There's also this reaction that Alice had. Every reaction that Alice has to any obstacle or mistake is one way or the other. Uh, you know, she gets into the librarian pride and she's like, I can overcome this because I can put that away and walk out. But the Weaver Girl, like, her immediate reaction after that is like, it always went like this. It didn't matter what she intended, it all went to shit anyway because she was stupid and worthless. She could not stop falling apart, she could not hold the thoughts inside, she made all the wrong choices, and it hurt everyone around her. And I was like, girl, same. Yeah.

K. Leigh 27:12

It's that imposter syndrome right there.

Jessica Mary 27:15

Yeah, and and it's all over this book, and I I kind of want to scream at both of them because they they both have it, where they're in in the same conversation, they have the I I can't work with this man anymore, but also this man chose me and I'm special.

Speaker 4 27:33

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 27:34

And it's like you guys have to pick one or the other. Like I know that magic revolves around paradoxes, but this is not magical, this is traumatic. And it was just It was so sad and familiar to watch this narrative. And I felt seen and I didn't like it.

K. Leigh 27:59

Yeah, there's there's definitely a lot of connection to both of them. Yeah. And remembering my college days and where I'm at now, and Yeah.

Jessica Mary 28:10

Let's move on to something really creepy, which is the Cripkis.

K. Leigh 28:15

Okay.

Jessica Mary 28:17

So the Cripkis are the beginning of the journey into hell, which Elspeth labels as the great journey or whatever it was. Yes. The Kripkies were stage mus stage magicians. I keep wanting to say musicians. They're not musicians, they are magicians. Uh that you know they were gonna return from hell, and they literally open their carotid arteries on stage and bleed out. And of course they don't come back because they're still in hell.

K. Leigh 28:42

Right. But I don't think they're just stage magicians, didn't they also like study magic at a university? So they're like magicians like Alice and Peter and Grimes are, except they went to take it to the world, really, as stage magicians. Yes. I think that's important. It's not like they're fake magicians. Yeah. You know, it's they they are magicians, but they're presenting themselves to the world as you know, those silly little magicians.

Jessica Mary 29:12

I I think the best way to describe like their place in the world would be like somebody who was a biology major who went on to write science fiction and like used their like it it's not what they intended to do or what the degree was meant to do, but it still works.

K. Leigh 29:32

Yeah, like they're not charlatans, yes, but they are kind of I don't want to say the lowest of the low, but they're looked down upon in the in the magical world.

Jessica Mary 29:42

Yeah. They also killed their son to bring him along. Uh Elspeth tells us that they didn't want to leave him behind, so they brought him along, they gave him some juice with arsenic before the show, and collected his dead little souls shortly after they journeyed down themselves. And I was like, I I my eyes opened wide, and like I don't tend to have very visceral reactions to literature, but I was like, holy hell. Like same. Yeah. And then we're reminded that magic revolves on this paradox because Peter and Alice were like, oh my god, they murdered their kid, and Alice was like, well, not according to them, because they were just gonna bring him right back. So it's not murder, you know, because he's not like dead dead because they have the power to do this, so it's it's okay. And it comes back to magic being this fine line of tricking yourself and others, and that, you know, you should never fully believe your own lie. And it kind of reminded me of certain coping skills. For example, I have terrible social anxiety, but I had to go into a classroom for my degrees, and so I would tell myself, you know, I have social anxiety, not classroom anxiety. I don't have education anxiety, it's social anxiety, and that's it's different. Being in a classroom is not social, and I'm completely aware that this is a very fragile bubble, and it can pop at any moment, but it helps me in that moment, and so here are two parents going, we're not murdering our child because he's coming back and we're going to reunite with him. Fragile little bubble. Fragile, fragile little bubble.

K. Leigh 31:36

I'm speechless on this subject. I know fiction is fiction, and I don't really like gasp at things, but I don't know. This just hit differently. Cause you kind of find out last minute that they had a kid. Like, oh, okay, they killed themselves and went to hell, and then they're like, oh, who is that? And they're like, that's their son. Wait, what?

Jessica Mary 31:58

Yeah. And it's like one of the largest constructs that's with them, too.

Speaker 4 32:03

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 32:04

They can't grasp their head around it. I I think the power of that is because the death of a child, the murder of a child is so emotional to anybody with a conscience.

Speaker 4 32:17

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 32:17

And this whole book has been about logic. Every every action has had a definitive motive behind it, and you know, eight sources that say it's okay. And then we have murder of a child, and we're like, okay, um, make it make sense.

K. Leigh 32:37

Right.

Jessica Mary 32:38

And and this is one of the only things that hasn't gotten one of those lengthy philosophical this is why it's okay to murder children articles behind it.

K. Leigh 32:49

I don't think anything, even in fiction, could justify that.

Jessica Mary 32:53

Yeah.

K. Leigh 32:54

And I mean, I I understand based on the character's like mindset, oh, we're coming back, we're just gonna take them on journey. It's like a vacation. Like, I get that, but at the same time, this is a child's life. Like, you're bringing them to hell, and there's only one way you can do that and come back. It's not like you can vacation in hell, yeah. You literally have to either get there in a magical way, like Alice and Peter, who are the first successful ones to do that. Right. Or you have to like kill yourself and find a way back.

Jessica Mary 33:32

Yeah. Crazy. It is crazy. There's also a talk about the Great Quest, which is the journey to Hell and Back that they do. Elspeth explains, you know, that's what we were all calling it my year. Hell and back was the goal, that was all the rage, it started with the Kripkies, and everyone wanted to do it. Nothing like a spectacular failure to inspire a thousand followers. And my reaction to that is like, but isn't that academia in a nutshell? Like, they couldn't do it, but I'm special and I can. Yes, this authority says this, but I believe this, and I can back it up with other authorities. And this whole book, thus far, has been a great epic critique of the world of academia. I don't think anybody can pick it up and be like, no, it supports it. Like, no. It's yelling at it quite clearly. You have problems. You have problems that have been there for forever, and you need to fix that. Yes. In that conversation, we also learn about the true contradiction. I'm gonna read the things that it used as examples, and then when my brain resolidifies inside my skull, I'll continue talking. The power of a true contradiction, contradiction explosion, was the first thing anyone learned in logic class. From contraction, anything follows. If you had a true contradiction, then you could prove anything. For example, you and the Pope are two, therefore you and the Pope are one, and you could prove the sky was green, that rocks were bread, and water was wine. Now I need to let my brain reset, because I was getting flashbacks to my freshman year philosophy class, where I was learning things like Levanost, who's like, oh, uh, we only exist in time by suffering. So when you're not suffering, you don't exist. Which is to say you suffer all the time. There was also, I think it's Heidegger who says the bathroom light toggles existence. Because if you go into your bathroom and it's got no windows to let light in, and you turn it off and you can't see anything, you can't prove that anything is there. And I'm like That's false. Yeah. That was the year that I started drinking heavily, because there was no way to understand this shit without being buzzed. You had to put your brain in this limbo-esque moment between being awake and being asleep. Like, I think if you taught philosophy to a kindergartner, they'd get it right away. Because they have nothing in the way to be like, no, that doesn't make sense. Their suspension of disbelief is astronomical, and they'd be like, wow, the bathroom light toggles existence? Absolutely. But we wait until we're in college for these big lofty ideas. These specific examples, though. The rocks that were bread and the water that was wine. Elspeth serves Alice tea. And now you didn't get to this section because this is when they get caught doing the liar's paradox. Okay. Alice takes some tea from Elspeth.

K. Leigh 36:58

I know they were planning to do that to Elspeth.

Jessica Mary 37:00

Yes.

K. Leigh 37:00

So they did that.

Jessica Mary 37:02

They did do that. Elspeth hands over the tea, the water looks disgusting, and she's like, hey, do you want some sugar? And Alice is like, sure. And Elspeth just drops a rock in. And it wasn't until I was typing up my notes on this that I'm realizing Elspeth might actually have a true contradiction, because she's drinking tea, which is definitely not tea, and she's putting a sugar cube in, which is definitely not a sugar cube. But for her, it definitely is. And if not a true contradiction, then she is, in fact, batshit crazy. So then they get caught in the liar's paradox, which is apparently like very basic, right? It's it's undergraduate work kind of thing. And Elspeth gets I think rightfully angry. I'd be mad if somebody was trying to cast something on me after I had saved them. And there is this description, because in that moment, she's like, You you think I can't handle a liar's paradox? She like transforms. Two things happen. One, she transforms because she's pissed, because they cast stuff on her. And two, she learns that they are Grimes students. Okay. And that they are there for for him.

Speaker 4 38:16

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 38:17

And so something black seeped into Elspeth's eyes, they seemed to rot in her. Whites turned green, then black, years of decay squeezed into seconds. Suddenly butterflies flew out the sockets, a horde of them, awful, rustling violet. And Alice's immediate reaction to that is that it's terribly impressive magic. She's good, Alice thought. She is worthy of Grimes.

K. Leigh 38:44

Wasn't she was Grimes' advise me. And she took her life.

Jessica Mary 38:51

Yes. And Alice defines suicide as like failure. Yeah. Yeah, they have a discussion about it because they're sitting there awkwardly, and Elspeth says, like, oh, you want to know where the boundary is. You'd like to know when it goes from feeling pretty blue to thinking you wouldn't mind if a bus ran over you to actively stringing a rope together and kicking off a chair. And then immediately changes the topic and doesn't go further there because obviously that's not like a fun topic of discussion.

K. Leigh 39:23

And I also think it varies from person to person.

Jessica Mary 39:26

Also, varies from person to person. Alice's idea on suicidal depression, however, is that it was just an extreme form of failure, which was a symptom of inadequacy. If you had sufficient force of will, then obviously you wouldn't be suicidal.

K. Leigh 39:44

That's very hard to comment on because it's half true, I would say, because a lot of the reason for many suicides is the fail uh is the feeling of inadequacy and failure and and all that stuff. So I think that kind of speaks to it, right? I think that part has a lot of truth behind it, but I don't believe the other one where if you had the force of will you'd be able to succeed and and not kill yourself because you're strong. And and that's I don't think that's true. No.

Jessica Mary 40:27

I think it says of a few things, right? We're in the 60s where psychology is still relatively new and also looked down on as a suit like a pseudoscience. So this isn't a time period where we'd be like, hey, I need help. We are in a time period where if you need help, you shouldn't ask for it because no one should need help. You should be strong enough to do it. And all of that is rooted in Alice. You know, she's she's already less than in her eye, and in this time period, because she's a woman. So she doesn't want to be a woman with depression as well. And that's what she sees in Elspeth, is it is a mirror, not only because Elspeth looks like Alice, but she's going through these same thoughts, and Elspeth succumbed to them. She ultimately killed herself. And they do have a discussion about whether or not it's because of Grimes. Right? She's like, oh, and he drove you to do it. She's like, oh no.

K. Leigh 41:36

I'm not giving him that satisfaction.

Jessica Mary 41:38

Yeah, I hate to give him that credit. You know, he's not the reason why I refuse to give him the credit, but he was the symptom. He was involved, it and and it took her years to realize it after the fact. And she also had uh the reaction to his torture ultimately, that every time he yelled at me or picked me apart or humiliated me in front of other students, this was just the whole symbolic order coming to a head. This you know, like this is just academia, this is just what it is. And so she sat in there and sat with it.

K. Leigh 42:13

Like Yeah.

Jessica Mary 42:15

She is a mirror to both Alice and Peter in that sense. But Absolutely. Yeah, but in other senses, I think she's batshit crazy. She's just like the mad hatter. Here is my dirty water tea and my rock sugar, have have fun.

K. Leigh 42:33

I think you could also say that she's a mirror to any academic who's been humiliated by a teacher in class.

Jessica Mary 42:40

I and I I don't think there's an academic out there that hasn't had a teacher that has been Yep. I had a teacher in my undergrad who had me for four years. She had me in the fall and the spring for four years because she taught all of the survey courses required for the degree, and I couldn't get out of having this teacher. And she never learned my name. On my senior thesis, the only thing she wrote other than failing me was Jennifer. This was a disappointment to read and grade. Four years. So I feel for Allison Peters.

K. Leigh 43:29

Yeah. Well, you know, you know mine. I wrote about her in my uh final paper draft.

Jessica Mary 43:39

Uh a public service announcement from Booked All Night. Uh, if you have to do a self reflection kind of senior project, it's probably best not to boost label your professors as pieces of shit.

K. Leigh 43:53

Or the devil incarnate.

Jessica Mary 43:55

The devil incarnate uh probably should not should not do that. Unless your professor here is Professor Grimes, who I think is the devil incarnate. He is such a he's a piece of shit on every level. And like there's there's a scene. I'm not sure if you got to it or not, but there's a scene between Alice. Between Peter and Alice, where they're just like, this is all the shit that I've I've done for him. Like I I stole somebody's colon, right?

K. Leigh 44:27

Oh yeah, I got to that scene. I got to that scene.

Jessica Mary 44:30

Yeah, and they're just going back and forth, like, oh uh, you know, I I don't know, I burned down an orphanage and I stole a colon, and and these are terrible things that he's making them do. And then they're both like, but I'm better for it. Like, what is wrong with you two? Like.

K. Leigh 44:49

Oh. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And and like they talk about how they didn't know that they were pitted against each other. And they they really connect right before he sends her whooshing out. So yeah, it's just like they finally, finally, finally take the walls down and open up to each other.

Jessica Mary 45:09

Yep.

K. Leigh 45:09

I get now that that if if we're talking about the the time this takes place, and I get why Peter didn't reveal uh his issue. Because now nowadays, like I mean, he's got Crohn's disease. Right?

Jessica Mary 45:27

Which sucks. I'm not I'm not gonna yeah.

K. Leigh 45:30

No, it does. It does, it absolutely does. UC and Crohn's like really, really sucks, and it and it does have an effect on people's lives. But I don't want to say it's common, but I know so many people who have it, and and yes, I feel for them, and and yeah, but you know, they're very open about it and they talk about it because hey, if I'm not able if I have to cancel plans and stay home, it's because of this, you know, and and he doesn't, he just disappears and doesn't open up to anyone because he doesn't want pity.

Jessica Mary 46:02

I understand that, but he just bounces. And as a postgraduate, as a like mentee, as as an employee of the college and of Grimes, he literally just bounces. He doesn't put a note on the door, he doesn't call anybody, he's not like, hey, there is actually a couple times he asks, I think, Belinda specifically to cover his classes, and she like finally starts to get upset about it, where she's like, hey, I'm teaching your class and you aren't. Where the hell are you?

Speaker 4 46:35

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 46:35

There was something else about Peter that both of his parents are academics. Yes. And they had the money to get private tutors and homeschool him and like all of this stuff, and I'm just I want to know where they worked as academics to have the budget for that.

K. Leigh 46:51

But they were well known in the academic world.

Jessica Mary 46:54

Yeah, but they were still academics, and never in the history of the world have I known teachers to get good enough pay for that.

K. Leigh 47:00

I mean, if you make enough publications and discoveries and stuff, you can get some pretty decent money. I guess.

Jessica Mary 47:08

That's actually a good segue to the next quote that I have, which is academia was decidedly not about gold stars.

K. Leigh 47:16

No, it is.

Jessica Mary 47:18

But it is.

K. Leigh 47:18

It absolutely is.

Jessica Mary 47:19

But it it that was my reaction. I'm like, but it but it is.

K. Leigh 47:24

Like But yes, it is. But it is. It's also pretending that it isn't. Like you want those gold stars, but you want to pretend that you don't need them. Right.

Jessica Mary 47:35

And another thing Alice says about it is that the point of it is the high of discovery. And I'm like, that's the gold star. That's the gold star. I have four degrees. You're telling me it's not about gold stars. Those degrees are my gold stars. Like, every every certification you get, every every good test grade, every letter of recommendation, gold star, gold star, gold star.

K. Leigh 48:02

Mm-hmm. Like So the whole point of academia, academia is to say, I don't want to say academia, like I'm academia. Um academia. Academia. Um, I like that. Uh for katabasis. We're talking about academa. Um, academy. Whatever. Um, but the whole point of it is to be like, I'm not I'm done.

Speaker 2 48:31

I'm done everywhere.

K. Leigh 48:34

The whole point is to be like, I don't want accolades, but give me accolades. But don't give me too many, but give me more. Look at me, but don't look at me. Yes.

Jessica Mary 48:48

I chose academia because I don't want to be in the public eye, says professor who publishes something every single year. Like, it drives me mad. Because you're absolutely right. It is about the gold stars, and the illusion is that it's not about the gold stars. Correct. Yes. It absolutely is. I want my doctorate because it's another gold star, and because then when I graduate, I get to wear a fancy hat. Now, I am an adult with adult money, and I could just buy the fancy hat, but it's not the same as earning the fancy hat, right? And so I want another gold star. And everybody in my life has to keep talking me out of getting that gold star.

K. Leigh 49:29

I literally have to keep talking myself out of the next gold star.

Jessica Mary 49:32

Yeah.

K. Leigh 49:33

Because I do not have the time nor the money to go back to school, but I want to. Right. But there's also because I work in the government and of right, like the the writing jobs that I would want or need to get requires a master's degree at the level that I need them at to match my pay now, right? So like if I just wanted to use my BA, I could get like an entry-level position, but I'd either have to ask to retain my grade or I'd have to go to a lower pay grade. You know? So if I want to just kind of be reassigned and get away.

Jessica Mary 50:14

I have an extra, do you want to borrow one?

K. Leigh 50:19

Just white out the name and just write in my name. But so I was thinking about going back to school, and I'm just like, especially now that I'm four load, and I'm like, I have the time to go back to school, and now I just I'm like, I'm too depressed to go back to school. It's like I can't even read 12 chapters in a week because all I do is depression nap and eat and play on my phone.

Jessica Mary 50:47

The the depression is omnipresent. Uh like, especially in grad school. And just to get back on track about talking about the book, it's also super prevalent throughout this narrative. From page one, Alice is depressed. Period.

K. Leigh 51:07

Yes.

Jessica Mary 51:09

There's no there's no question about it. She's somewhere on the spectrum and she's depressed. And I said it earlier, where I think it's done really well, are the little calls to the void where it's still like, I could jump. What would happen if I just jumped? A lot of the reaction to what happens, I think, is from the depression.

Speaker 4 51:29

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 51:30

In that, you know, you're already depressed, and so you think that you deserve this kind of treatment, which again felt very familiar and I didn't like it. Some of the flashbacks, though, that got mixed into some of the philosophy sections. So, like, I know we talked about it at the beginning, where you know, some some of those philosophy sections are thick, double C, you know. And you can't skim over them because there's also plot and characterization in there, too. Like this one scene where the grads are all getting a little buzzed, and they're they get into that sleepy haha sense and they all start talking nonsense and enjoying themselves, and while getting caught up in their field, like w which is the same nonsense we do here at this podcast.

Speaker 2 52:19

Yes.

Jessica Mary 52:20

The description there is that they are rejoicing in the acrobatics of thought, which I was like, yes. I love that. That's exactly how stupid late-night discussions are. Is just what bullshit can I put into the ether?

Speaker 4 52:37

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 52:38

And at one point, the conversation brings them to whether it was alright to have sex with trains. Right. And I posit you this: how much murder is too much murder? Seven. Right? Seven murder is too much murder before somebody like these are conversations that we've had. Producer Rob and I have actively over-analyzed Frosty the Snowman because it's fun. It's just fun to do.

K. Leigh 53:04

We literally analyze respawn times and compare them to Jesus.

Jessica Mary 53:09

We have a list of respawn times. I think when you think of academia and when you think of people that have several degrees, you think that they are a serious person, you think that there's no fun to be had, that they're so driven by the discovery that like they can't leave, which is what Alice is, right? There's a point where she's like proud of herself for not eating, because she's like, I've transcended. I'm above basic needs. But these other moments, like, they exist too. It's not all hardships, it's not all late night in the computer lab wondering why your computer got a virus, and now you're retyping your entire thesis at one o'clock in the morning. Like, there's a lot of happiness to be had in academia too. And there's uh a point that they talked about with like the high of discovery that I thought really related to creative writing in a good way, where like that feeling you get when you realize how to fill a plot hole that's been bugging you for a couple days, or that spark of a new idea, or like for me personally, helping somebody flesh out their story and get involved in their world, like it's amazing. I love that feeling. That's that's like a drug to me. And if you're the kind of person who who loves logic and and math and and those kinds of things, and you finally figure something out, you do get this boost of the happy chemicals, and so you can see how that works, you can see how you want to dedicate something to that and to chase that high.

K. Leigh 54:58

Yes. Even outside of academia, right? Like you're watching a YouTube channel or you're doing this, or and something just clicks, right? Something that hasn't clicked, or maybe you just didn't understand, and you watch something, you're like, I finally get it, right? You know, so it it it also happens outside of that world too, where just in everyday life, like even at work sometimes, like when you when you have a problem at work, and like everyone's telling and you're like, this doesn't make sense, this doesn't make sense, this doesn't make sense, and someone like literally just says, just think of it this way, and it finally clicks. And you're piecing all the pieces together that you that you didn't have in your brain before. Absolutely, exactly.

Jessica Mary 55:47

It is, it it feels so good, it does feel good, it feels so good, and and it's all the natural happy chemicals coming out of your brain and going everywhere, and it's a warm and fuzzy feeling of appreciation for your damn self, and it it does, it feels so good.

Speaker 4 56:04

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 56:06

I have a question from last week. Okay. So hell is personal, and we established that in the first 12 chapters that when you come down to hell, like it presents how you think it would.

Speaker 3 56:19

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 56:20

Peter and Alice came down together. Is this hell their joint hell, or is it one or the other's hell?

K. Leigh 56:28

I honestly think it's both of theirs. Because they're they're literally going through hell in the real world. And it's now personifying itself as actual place hell. And I think it's both because it's where it's where Peter has had his worst bout of Crohn's disease, it's where he's been pitted against his other advisee, you know, he's been pitted against Alice. He's been made to feel worthless, he's had his work stolen um while he was in the hospital getting surgery.

Jessica Mary 57:07

Yeah.

K. Leigh 57:08

So I think that it's manifesting into this actual hell for them because it's the only thing that they've experienced in real life that they just feels like they're going through hell, right? You know, depression and not eating and trying to not help yourself and your body when you're going through a battle of Crohn's disease because you think you can because your teacher told you that you you're stronger than it and you can tough it out. Literal hell. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 57:42

So I bring that up because one of the quotes from Elspeth is in defining hell that she thinks the whole point of it is to show you the full extent of what you wanted.

K. Leigh 57:55

Okay.

Jessica Mary 57:56

And I think we have seen some of that, right? So in Pride, Alice finally got to pull one over on a male authority figure.

K. Leigh 58:06

Right.

Jessica Mary 58:07

In Desire, which was the what was in Desire?

K. Leigh 58:12

It was like a rehab center, yeah. It was like a dormitory.

Jessica Mary 58:15

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the dormitory. I can't make my point in desire. But I can in Wrath, where they they are experiencing someone's wrath, and they are both finally letting their own out and screaming and yelling at each other. Like, what they're in is this weird kind of purgatory where everything is what they wanted to experience out of life. In desire, neither Peter nor Alice uh have really had any. I mean, they've had sexual experiences, they've definitely, like, in flashbacks, we've we've learned that like they're not two virgins in grad school, right? But there is definitely a desire that they have for each other, whether it's romantic or platonic, is yet to be canonized.

K. Leigh 59:05

Right. However, Alice does mention that as a magician, a magician who is supposed to be better than any other magician because they're working with the greatest magician of all time, she has no room for desire. They're supposed to be able to just kind of like eating, just shove it to the side. You don't need it, you don't need to feel it.

Jessica Mary 59:30

Alice needs to be hit in the head with a frying pan sometimes.

K. Leigh 59:37

Uh, yeah. I think Peter does too.

Jessica Mary 59:40

Yeah, in that they're both stressed out of their minds.

K. Leigh 59:43

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 59:44

And neither one of them talks to the other, and like, it's the 60s, 70s, of course, they're not going to talk to each other. But they both know that they're in the same situation, and neither one of them is like, hey, how are you handling it? What is your secret?

K. Leigh 1:00:00

Because they don't want to show that weakness.

Jessica Mary 1:00:02

Yeah. Which kind of comes back to like how they both talk about Grimes and and feel about Grimes. They want to feel ultimately, I think, appreciated and acknowledged. I see that especially in Peter, right? Because his work was just stolen and he was not acknowledged. But I also see that in Alice, who is going out of her way to People Please.

Speaker 4 1:00:28

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 1:00:29

And just wants to be recognized, not necessarily worldwide, but like in her field, the way that Grimes is recognized in the field. And so that all of the work that she has done, all of the work that Peter did, like, that it meant something. Which is why when Grimes comes in and reduces her to a thing. Yes. It it's it's so extraordinarily heartbreaking. And there is a line in there at you know when she was at her lowest that she tried to seduce him again and wore the short skirts and the black tights and the low-cut blouses, and he still pretended that she didn't exist, and all she was trying for was like acknowledgement that that she was more than just a woman or just a student or just uh insert anything else. Right. One less specific thing before speculation. The very last thing that we read was Alice meeting Grimes for the very first time. And you know, she goes in and she's nervous and she sits down and she is just ecstatic that her application stood out amongst other applications. Right. And the line here is like the she has a view of what it means to be a student of uh Jacob Grimes, right? This was the advantage of being a Grimes student. All the doors were open, you could get an audience with anyone, you could secure funding for anything, you could travel anywhere, and all it took was his ascent. When Alice was under his wing, no one questioned her right to be in the room. My student, he would say, hands stretched toward her, and suddenly it was like she had a sl a slough upon her. I must have mistyped something. For the first time, people saw her. She's getting that appreciation that she wants. She spoke and people listened. So despite everything that happened after, she would always remember it was Professor Grind who believed in her first and plucked her out of obscurity.

K. Leigh 1:02:45

But did he? All the females that he's advised have had that ballerina look, like the dark hair, thin, hair in a bun, sort of sort of thing, you know? So, and especially if he's hitting on them and trying to essay them at some point, he could have just saw her and been like, oh, she's really pretty. I need her. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 1:03:09

One, I speculate that same thing that he probably did his own research and was like, this one also looks like a ballerina with brown hair. On the the notion of like being listened to and feeling not only seeing from her peers that she has the right to be in the room, but she now believes she has the right to be in the room because this man acknowledged her. And on one hand, um, I absolutely understand that, right? I've I've been through grad school twice. It's terrible. But I have worked with some professors, and some of them have been on the New York Times bestseller list. They absolutely go on my query list, they make my query letter stand out. They if I go for a cover letter, they make my cover letter stand out because I have worked with these people or worked under these people. And that's big, and those are great things to have. But if my mentors had like wrecked me afterwards or stolen my work, I I wouldn't have anything on there about them. I probably also would not be applying for the jobs because I would be depressed as fuck. But Alice Alice attributes all of her achievements to him.

Speaker 2 1:04:37

Right.

Jessica Mary 1:04:38

Willingly. You know, she's like, he made me perfect. There is a sentence there that she says that he made me perfect.

K. Leigh 1:04:46

Yes. Because of the tattoo and everything.

Jessica Mary 1:04:50

Yeah, and it's like, girl, you did the work. Which is Peter's gripe, is that that's what ultimately leads to Grimes' death, right? Is that other people are doing the work because Peter's like, I don't care about doing this, you stole my work, and Alice is so far beyond exhausted that she doesn't check, and so one little circle is not closed, and Grimes becomes goop.

K. Leigh 1:05:15

I think subconsciously she wanted to do that anyway. Yeah. I knew and I still didn't do it.

Jessica Mary 1:05:24

She also stands there laughing after he blows up. She's just like, ha ha ha.

K. Leigh 1:05:31

So I think in her subconscious, she was just like, I know there's supposed to be a loop, someone didn't check, and you know what? I'm not gonna close it.

Jessica Mary 1:05:40

Yep. In a way, they're both at fault, or they are both at least taking the blame.

K. Leigh 1:05:45

Yes.

Jessica Mary 1:05:47

But like Grimes didn't check it, and if that was a possibil like if there is a joke about an engineering professor where there's an engineering professor. He gets on a plane and they make the announcement that all of his students had worked on this plane, and everybody else gets off, but he stays on. And they're like, Oh, are you like that confident in your students? And he's like, No, if they're mine, this probably won't get up off the ground. And I feel like, you know, at as the joke, the engineering professor obviously has a better understanding of his students, knowing that they don't double-check things. But here comes Grimes, who absolutely should be double-checking things. Especially if you're you're walking into this circle and you know that a side effect might be that you're just going to explode. Right. Or if if that's a side effect of any magic, if anything is drawn incorrectly or or written in the wrong language.

K. Leigh 1:06:47

Right. Like a hundred percent. But he knows that they worship him and will do anything. And he doesn't think that they can be angry at him, and he's wrong. Yeah. Clearly.

Jessica Mary 1:07:02

Do you think they'll find him?

K. Leigh 1:07:05

No. Well, yes, and no, because I think he's one of Kripkeys' little bone things.

Jessica Mary 1:07:14

Or he's like working with the Kripkeys?

K. Leigh 1:07:17

That, or because Elspeth says that when people come down to hell, the magicians come down to hell, the Kripkeys go and find them immediately and sacrifice them to become part of their bone things.

Jessica Mary 1:07:30

Is it wrong that I hope that's what happens to them? Because they're trying to get they're trying to get to the last cert.

K. Leigh 1:07:39

Lord Yama, yeah.

Jessica Mary 1:07:40

Yeah, to Lord Yama and the last, the nameless court.

K. Leigh 1:07:44

Yes.

Jessica Mary 1:07:45

We've been through four courts in 24 chapters. I don't think they're gonna get to that point. I don't think they're gonna hit that goal. And I kinda don't want them to. Like I want Alice and Peter to successfully get themselves out of hell. And if they do that, I want them to be the ones to sacrifice Grimes. Just be like, you know what? Bye. But I genuinely My genuine thoughts are that they are not going to make it to the center and they're not going to find Grimes.

K. Leigh 1:08:25

I feel like they are gonna find Grimes, but I feel like they're going to do something to the point where they're like, you know what? Screw this, we don't need to save you. And just head off on their own. Something's gonna happen where they find him, but they don't go through with their plan. But I still think they're gonna make it to Lord Yama, and I think I think one of them be close to dying or something, and the one wishes to like, you know, save them and get back up or whatever. I don't know. But I I don't think the ending, I don't think they're gonna save Grimes.

Jessica Mary 1:09:00

If they do find Grimes in hell, do you think he's got like a body as a shade, or is he just like a big goopy shade because of how he died?

K. Leigh 1:09:10

I think he's gonna put the work in. I think he's somewhere in pride, honestly. Um, and they just overlooked him. They just overlooked him. Yeah, because he keeps publishing things under his name that isn't his own work for the the gold stars, right? Like he clearly wants those gold stars. He's clearly proud, and clearly he knows that his name carries weight, right? Yes. And I think he wants people to know that and to recognize that. So I don't think he's gonna be one of these blobs who doesn't put in any effort into their image. I think he's going to show up as he is and be like, look at me. Yes, I'm Grimes, yes, I'm him, you know, sort of thing. I think he's gonna be in some some court that encompasses all of the sins.

Jessica Mary 1:10:00

Alright, so what do we have left for courts? Because they did name them, so we're like vi it's violence, tyranny. The nameless court was the last one. There's another one.

K. Leigh 1:10:09

I mean There's there's maps in the back. Hold on. Pride, desire, greed, wrath, violence, cruelty, tyranny, and the eighth court.

Jessica Mary 1:10:18

If they do find him, I think he's in cruelty.

K. Leigh 1:10:21

Or tyranny. Because I think tyranny could compass encompass every single sin. Yeah. Because I mean, if you're gonna be a tyrant, you gotta have some sort of pride in yourself. Some desire to take over and have power. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 1:10:38

Greed, obviously, taking other people's shit.

K. Leigh 1:10:40

Wrath. Anyone goes against you, you're gonna be violent against them and cruel to them.

Jessica Mary 1:10:45

And he was.

K. Leigh 1:10:45

He was Yes. I th I think tyranny would be it. Unless he is like Lord Yamma or something.

Jessica Mary 1:10:56

He takes his face off. I am Lord Yama. Ha ha ha. You have passed my final test. Here is your doctorate. Alright. Next week, we finish. Finish our discussion on Katabasis. Kit it it doesn't even like roll on.

K. Leigh 1:11:16

No. Katabasis sounds so much better.

Jessica Mary 1:11:19

Almost all the other Greek names for me roll like I could do Orpheus, Eurydice, Antigone, like like that that.

K. Leigh 1:11:27

It takes me a minute to figure out how to pronounce it in my head. Antigone? Yes.

Jessica Mary 1:11:31

Antigon, yeah.

K. Leigh 1:11:32

I'm like, what is this word?

Jessica Mary 1:11:34

I'm like, ah, it's Greek, so it's not pronounced how you think it should be.

K. Leigh 1:11:39

Eurydice. It's Eurydite.

Jessica Mary 1:11:42

Uh well, what's the joke? It's um guy rips his pants and he goes to the tailor and he's like, hey, Eumenides? And the tailor is like, yeah, Euripides?

Outro 1:11:53

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