At Least, I Don't Think I've Killed Anyone : An Interview with Julee Balko

You want context for the title? TOO BAD! You're going to have to listen to our interview with Julee Balko. We talked about Square Hearts, the importance of seeing yourself in media, and who the best Muppet is. 

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Transcript

Booked All Night 0:02

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes we craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess. I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for unhinged hot takes. A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shame. Grab your blankets, booklets. It's time to get booked all night. I'm Jessica Mary, and today I am joined by Julie Balko, author of Square Hearts. Welcome to the pod. I already got the book in there once. We're done. Yeah. Woo! I'm glad you have a copy of it. Sometimes we interview uh authors and it's like so far in advance they don't have the physical copy of their book yet. We just interviewed, I believe it was Anastasia, our last interview, and she doesn't have a copy yet because it doesn't come out for like a year. So we're like, okay, we can't play that game. It's fine.

Julee Balko 0:54

I have all my books next to me because that's how I roll.

Booked All Night 0:58

That is smart. That is very smart for podcast interviews.

Julee Balko 1:02

Been here done that, I guess. No.

Booked All Night 1:07

I would bring my if if I ever get published, or the more hopeful statement, when I finally get published, I'm just gonna have it in my purse. And people are like, oh, you wrote a book? Like, yes, this one, right here, right here in my purse. How convenient. Half a copy.

Julee Balko 1:19

I joke that was gonna make like a necklace and just wear it. Oh, we came up in conversation about this.

Booked All Night 1:25

Oh, this hang it around your neck like a badge, con like a con badge. Yeah. Little protective uh casing to it. Pull it off. It's cool. It'd be great. So this very first game that we play is called superlatives, very much like, you know, see your yearbook, most likely to, least likely to, etc. etc. And you're just gonna pick from hopefully from square hearts so that we get to know the characters, but you can pick from any of your work if that's what you feel more comfortable answering with.

unknown 1:55

Okay.

Booked All Night 1:56

So first, most likely to get kicked out of a group chat.

Julee Balko 2:02

Oh definitely, Maeve. Maeve is the neighbor, and she turns out to be a narcissist. And she's like one of those perfect people that you kind of like but actually hate.

Booked All Night 2:12

I feel that I have those neighbors in real life. Yeah. Least likely to believe in ghosts.

Julee Balko 2:21

You know, I don't know, because so many of these people have have people that they lost that have passed away that I feel like they'd all want to believe in ghosts because they'd want that connection. Um, there's a cute cat in it. Maybe he doesn't believe in ghosts because cats are weird.

Booked All Night 2:39

Most likely to start drama and deny it.

Julee Balko 2:44

Well, probably Maeve again, but actually there's I don't know if it's terrible, but I have a kind of a terrible um child in this book, which you don't see very often, but she's a little bit evil, so let's make it. It's Maeve's daughter, no surprise. Um, and her name is Sage, and Sage causes a lot of trouble.

Booked All Night 3:02

Sage, Sage sounds like an evil child name.

Julee Balko 3:05

Sorry to anyone who's been named Sage, but I know actually, so it's named after a friend whose brother has that for their child, and I said, I really like the name. Can I use it for my book? But please know the child is terrible in it. Is that okay? And luckily she's a good friend, and she's like, Yeah, take the name. That's fine.

Booked All Night 3:22

Eva if it if it were me and you were writing a terrible child, I imagine that my child will probably be a terrible child just because of what I was like as a kid, be like, you know what, go right ahead.

Julee Balko 3:33

Go right ahead.

Booked All Night 3:35

Uh most likely to cry in public and pretend it didn't happen.

Julee Balko 3:40

Definitely the main character, Nicola, who um had lost her husband about two years earlier in a car accident, and there's definitely times in the book where she's still just kind of dealing with grief.

Booked All Night 3:53

And the last one is most likely to accidentally go viral.

Julee Balko 3:58

Um so maybe the neighbor's husband who's kind of hot um and is a violin teacher and does a lot of video stuff. Um, I think that could be fun.

Booked All Night 4:09

Possibilities. So before we jump into the official questions about the book, I just want to let everybody know at home that all of the booklets on our Discord server can drop a question in our interview forums for all of the wonderful guests that we host here on the podcast. And if you get a few in for Julie, I can make sure that they go up by the end of the interview today. Just visit bookdallnight.co and sign up today, and then drop your question in the appropriate forum. So the first official question. The idea that hearts have four sides is a very striking emotional anchor. What did that metaphor unlock for you when you started writing Nicola's story?

Julee Balko 4:49

Well, I had this idea that her husband, who had passed away, um, would have the idea for the four sides of her heart. And it that's how the book starts. You learn these beautiful, wonderful writing, of course, of these four sides, and then you learn Peter's dead, and she has to kind of put back together the four sides of her heart. Um, I love the idea of square heart square meaning like uncool too, because the characters are really quirky. And then um the daughter uh is neurodivergent and she loves squares because they're predictable, right? There's safety in that. She actually hates circles, and she cuts up any food that's a circle into a square. There's a lot of donuts being cut into a square. So there's a lot of different ways the square kind of heart plays out in the book.

Booked All Night 5:31

I like that. It's very good. Is that did you come up with that on your own, or is that like a grieving technique or something from therapy that came up?

Julee Balko 5:42

Or the square part? Um no, but interestingly enough, so this book and my past book, it's kind of called self-help fiction, in that there is a little bit of a self-help theme. And in here in Square Hearts, um, Nicola often gets overwhelmed, and she does practice square, square breathing, where um it kind of calms her down. Um, so I don't know why I actually the square started with the daughter, the neurodivergent daughter, having kind of this just peacefulness around squares, and it went from there. And suddenly I was like, square hearts, this is you know, I'm not kind of an outline writer, it definitely happens very fluidly.

Booked All Night 6:17

So I do not outline uh and everyone and everyone can thank my history as an English major for that because I got burnt out on outlines. Yeah, I mm-mm, no, no more. I I can't do it.

Julee Balko 6:33

I mean, I know like the pulse points, I know the broad strokes, but then I just let whatever happens happens, and um, that's the fun part.

Booked All Night 6:41

Yes, yes, it is. So, as you're saying earlier, Nicola's great navigating grief as well as motherhood, a little bit identities, desire because the neighbor's hot, all of this all at once. Which emotional threads do you feel are the most at odds with one another?

Julee Balko 7:01

Um, I mean, in some ways, that's the book, right? That's the tension of her trying to move on, but feeling this pull of the past, feeling this guilt of the past. It's like, how do you move on when you've had this like wonderful love? Um, there's also a beautiful kind of self-love story that happens in the book because I thought the thing about romance that kind of annoys me, sorry people, is that the woman always falls in love with a man and it's like, oh, life is better. I really wanted to write a book where the woman also just fell back in love with herself, and that like empowerment is also what made her life better. So, yeah, there's a hot guy and she'll fall in love, and don't worry, it's great. But also that idea that she can look in the mirror and kind of find herself again is what I think is such a cool part of the book.

Booked All Night 7:43

That is fun. And we do have an audience question. Someone would like to know how does someone get into something like self-help fiction? Uh, presumably writing something.

Julee Balko 7:55

So I think I think the thought is I have three daughters, and for every book, I'm always thinking about one day I won't be here, and they're gonna read these books, and what are the messages I want them to feel or think about? And it kind of started getting this self-help angle of um, you know, you read a book and a story and it moves you, but what if it actually improved your life? So for my last book, which oh I happen to have next to me, um, called The Me List, this is why we keep them around. It's why always here. Um, you know, what if we put us ourselves as moms, which we never do, to the top of our list? What if we had a list about our own joys? What would we put on it? Um, and there's actually a part in the back where you can write your own me list. And I love that idea of not only are you getting a story that's really funny and good, but by the end you're actually writing out a list to improve your life. So self-well fiction just was kind of something I decided to do because you, when you're a writer, can do whatever you want. Um, and it really took off. The me list was so cool because so many readers would send me their list. And here are all these people that not just read a great book, but were like trying new things and you know, dancing and just doing crazy things. It was lovely. Uh, so for Square Hearts, I wanted a little bit of that again because I just love the idea of books being like a part that improves our lives.

Booked All Night 9:09

Yeah, I think it's really great, you know, your your ideal audience and mind is someone that is actively seeing themselves on the page, and even if it's not like directed at you, that there is something to take away from it. And I I love that, especially, you know, the little list at the end. I love interaction with our fiction, with our books, with our our media in general. And I could go on a very long tangent about that, but we're live, and producer Rob can't cut that out. So I will curb that and get back to our regularly scheduled questions.

Julee Balko 9:40

Well, I will tell you, Square Hearts also has a part on the back where you can write out um a mantra for your square breathing because Nicola also talks to herself and she she says the four parts of her heart that her husband had said. So I really wanted that part again that you know, could the reader could read a book but also get something out of it.

Booked All Night 9:56

Yeah, could you explain what square breathing is for our audience?

Julee Balko 10:00

Sure. It's basically holding in your breath and letting it go and holding it again and letting it go. And it in your head it almost forms a square. But it's very simple and it's just a way to get yourself uh centered. And the way I started it is I have a daughter who sometimes gets very emotionally overwhelmed, and um, it was just a simple practice we could do that she could do, and we'd do it together, and it would calm her down. So I thought it would be lovely to put in the book um just as a way to kind of show how Nicola kind of calms herself down.

Booked All Night 10:33

Apparently on YouTube we have a few people in the audience who have written a me list and they're very excited about that idea. That's pretty nice, guys. Good job. You should share it up at the yeah, hit up the Discord and share it so I can see these, because I never get to see the comments until producer Rob gets them into the chat. So help producer Rob out and go to Discord. I'll see them easy there. So my final official question about the book is about Daisy's relationship and her relationship to change specifically and how that plays such a crucial role in shaping Nicola's choices. How does Daisy's character and her neurodivergence influence and shape the narrative throughout the story?

Julee Balko 11:14

Well, I will tell you right now it's April, which is like neurodiversity month. So yay. I think there's about 60 million people in the US that's neurodivergent, including me, including my daughter.

Booked All Night 11:24

So it was just including everybody here at the podcast.

Julee Balko 11:27

Yeah, because we're cool. That's how it works, right? Creative people are never normal and nor would we want to be. Um, so nope, it's okay if you're normal. Um so for me, Daisy was so critical to get right because not only was she gonna represent my daughters, I know how important it is to see neurodivergent characters, and I really wanted her to play a critical part in this book. So, yes, Daisy hates change, and that whole book is about life changing. So you can only imagine how you know that comes to play. And the interesting thing about the character is when I um first wrote it, I was just gonna call her neurodivergent. I wasn't gonna use the word autism. I didn't want to necessarily, because as soon as I use that word, then I feel like I have to represent people that are it's just a bigger representation story, and I only know. Um, but early readers didn't get, they didn't understand Daisy because um, if you don't have a lovely neurodivergent person in your life, you're like, why is this kid overwhelmed just by going to school? Or why doesn't she like to be touched? And it became they thought she was being a brat when she was actually being overwhelmed, or you know, all these things. So I wound up putting the word in. Really, my daughters helped me a lot. I was very curious, and I'd ask them questions and really develop just the neurodivergent brain a little bit more. And then when I threw it through the beta readers again, the whole it was totally different. It was like, oh wow, thank you for showing me this side of you know neurodivergence. So cool to see, you know, autistic brain kind of brought to life. So then I realized, okay, I got it right. This character is gonna be great, and she is very pivotal. And um, Nicola kind of understanding herself, you know, accepting kind of how to be a better parent to her and just how to move on. So very excited for people to read it.

Booked All Night 13:09

I love that so much, and especially about the representation because I feel so much of the neurodivergent or like neuroatypical representation is all about them getting better and not about learning to cope with their specific neurodivergence or working their way through being overwhelmed. It's just like almost like a picture book kind of presentation about what it is like to live with a brain that doesn't shut up.

Julee Balko 13:37

And I feel like there's not a lot of women, there's not a lot of little girls. We see a lot of boys. Um, and girls present differently, we mask differently, like it's a whole different world. And um, yeah, to some people they they do think it's like, why is that child being naughty? And it's like, no, no, she's not being naughty, she's so overwhelmed, or she's feeling you know, whatever. So if that this book helps somebody see a child in that moment and have like a moment of grace and love, then the book has done its job.

Booked All Night 14:03

Yeah, I I just love that so much. I also write neurodivergent characters as I myself am I prefer the term neurosparkly because there's just so many diagnoses on there. Uh but when my sister, my sister went back to school recently, she was a music major and then she went back to school for uh neuroscience, like you do, because they're so related. And in one of her classes, they were talking about the grab bag diagnoses, where you have uh this huge luggage-like bag until you finally get something that kind of fits all of them. So autism has so much comorbidity. This is my my big fancy speak for everybody at home, it's where like the Venn diagram overlaps with everything else, and it has so much comorbidity with ADHD that the Venn diagram of it looks a little less like a Venn diagram and more like a circle because so much of it is just in there, and so they constantly get mixed. Little girls, especially who have autism get mixed diagnosed with ADHD and the other way around, and there is high prevalence that they actually have both. Yeah. And they don't learn that until adulthood, and then they're like, okay, so now I can finally learn appropriate skills to help me with these things, and it's not that I don't like going out in public, it's that I don't like loud sounds, and so now I can put headphones on to help, you know, desensitize me to that thing. Like having the right language and seeing ourselves in media is very important. So thank you very much.

Julee Balko 15:34

It you know, and and for my girls, that's what it's about, right? It's it's not it's about trying to understand your brain and how to how to navigate life, right? Yeah. Appreciate the things. Yeah, there's some complexity, there's some challenges, but it's really just about figuring yourself out and embracing it. And yeah, I think that's you're spot on. And in the book, there's a lot of that, so I hope people really can kind of see that.

Booked All Night 15:56

I love that. And that brings us to the very first game of the podcast. So the first game is Never Have I Ever Spoiled My Own Book. And if you have ever been to a sleepover and played Never Have I Ever, similar rules.

Julee Balko 16:13

I actually, I mean, I've been to a lot of sleepovers, but I've never played Never Have I Ever.

Booked All Night 16:17

Oh, okay. So in Never Have I Ever, I give you some statements that start with Never Have I Ever Done XYZ. Uh something. These specific statements are very stereotypical writerly, readerly things. So, like never have I ever written at a coffee shop, never have I ever written a book. And then I do it shot of vodka, is that how that uh and then I keep track, and if you've done five or more, you have to spoil something from beyond what you think is act one. Okay. You can, however, be as vague as you want to be. No pressure. We're all friends here. Yes, we're all friends here. So yes, as producer Rob points out, I play dirty. I absolutely do. Do I stalk social media and get stuff? Yeah, I sure do. Have I 100% put on a list before? Never have I ever written the book that you're here to talk about? Yeah, I've absolutely done that. I'm petty. I don't care. Everybody should know it. So the first official one is never have I ever had an iced coffee while editing. Well, we definitely had that. Never have I ever zoned out while listening to an audiobook.

Julee Balko 17:32

So, truth, I've only listened to one audiobook because I zone out continually and it was with my kids. But on that one, yeah, I probably zoned out, but it was really good.

Booked All Night 17:43

I zone out all the time. I love to play uh like little cozy games while I listen to audiobooks. And, you know, just a little bit of text on the screen, and I've missed 20 chapters of this audiobook. What has happened?

Julee Balko 17:56

That's my problem too. It's just like, oh, it's over. I'm so I'm I'm not a good audiobook person, but I'm glad they exist. They're just not for my brain.

unknown 18:04

Perfect.

Booked All Night 18:05

Never have I ever skipped ahead just to check something.

Julee Balko 18:09

I don't skip ahead. I'm psychotic. Um, I would never read the ending. I'd rather die.

Booked All Night 18:14

That's fair. I have I have this awful, awful habit that I have no idea where I picked up, but if I'm on like the last page, my eyes will immediately flick to that very last space where all the white spaces, and I'm like, stop it now! So like when I'm when I'm reading a physical book, I have to put my hand over top the other page because my eyes will be like, what's that there? What is it?

Julee Balko 18:38

Yeah, that's bothering me. It's like, no, someone has written this delicately, so I read it one at a time and get to that ending. Uh so yeah, I'm d I'm disciplined.

Booked All Night 18:47

Yeah, my my poor eyes, my poor brain. It's so it's so awful. Never have I ever reread my favorite scene immediately after writing it.

Julee Balko 19:00

I'm I don't tend to read, I tend to write and just keep going, so I don't read it again until I've edited it.

Booked All Night 19:07

So no. That is the smart way to do that, by the way, because otherwise you get in this loop. For anybody at home who might be thinking of getting into writing, it's best to just lay it all out on the page.

Julee Balko 19:20

Yeah, and I actually love the beginning of writing when you're just like vomiting on the page. That's so fun to me. Um, and this is where my neurodivergence is such a great thing because I have um hyperfocus, which means I can write for like seven hours at a time. I won't like eat or pee, which is not healthy, but I love that when in the beginning of the book, I'm just writing, writing, writing, and yeah, I never look back. I just keep going.

Booked All Night 19:42

Yep. As long as I have found the right song for, and I mean song, singular, I will get into, yeah. I will get right into hyperfocus mode, and then similarly, a couple hours have passed, I haven't gone to the bathroom, I haven't eaten, there's like 17 missed calls on my phone, and I'm like, ah, the world. You need progress. Yeah, but I did like 10,000 words today, so go me.

unknown 20:07

Fuck.

Booked All Night 20:09

Uh, never have I ever changed a character's name halfway through drafting.

Julee Balko 20:15

No, so I am very particular about the names. I love names. I ask people their names all the time, and I think I'm I'm I mean I'm weird, it's okay. So I'll be like, I'm a writer, that's why I'm asking. So that makes it more normal. But I I always know my names and I always keep them. I've never changed a name yet.

Booked All Night 20:32

I have I have a good story about, but I'm a writer. Uh so I I almost every writer has like a folder on their computer that the FBI would probably be like suspicious, and then see that you're drafting something and be like, oh, okay. Uh when I was doing my master's project, I was doing a murder mystery, and so I had a folder full of variously decomposing bodies so that I could describe them correctly.

Speaker 1 20:57

And I get it.

Booked All Night 20:58

Yep, and the the job that I had was so boring, and I I was usually done by like 11 noon, you know, and then I wasn't allowed to go home until 5, so I would just work on my my work. And my boss came up behind me while I had this folder open, and he was like, uh. And the first words out of my mouth were just it's okay, it's for a project.

Julee Balko 21:23

Like, yeah, like these good bodies have a reason.

Booked All Night 21:27

I'm like, oh, I did not make this better. I'm gonna can I just go home early? Is that fine? I'm so shamed. Thank you. Uh never have I ever gotten emotionally attached to a side character.

Julee Balko 21:41

Okay, well, the new book has uh a person called Henry, and I think by the end of this book, I was like, yeah, I think I'm in love with Henry. It's okay. All right, it's first time, you know. Oh, so here's my vodka.

Booked All Night 22:00

Never have I ever read reviews of my own work.

Julee Balko 22:04

I have, and I well, we can talk about it all one second. So at the first book, I it it was so hard for me. And actually, all my books have done really well. I shouldn't complain. There's no like evilness in any of my reviews. Um, but it's it's a real weird thing, and I think every book should come with a therapist because I don't think any author should read, but you like people send them to you and you see them, and I do read the good ones and they feel so good. But man, you see, like in a three-star isn't even that bad, but it's like, let me click on that and just hurt myself. And I do it. Um, I've gotten better. I've gotten better. The second book, I you know, got so much love because it's a happy book. Um, this one will be interesting. I know I've pushed some stuff, I know I wrote some stuff that's gonna piss some people off. But there's also stuff that's gonna make people happy and it's interesting. So I'll try really hard not to read those reviews.

Booked All Night 22:59

I as an influencer, which I hate calling myself that, but that's technically the job I'm at as a podcaster. I can't believe anybody tags an author and a review below four stars. And Joanne Paulson uh is totally in love with Henry.

Julee Balko 23:25

She is my editor, and um she is amazing. She's also an amazing author and amazing friend, and I love her to death. And yeah, and I knew I got Henry right when we were just like both in love with Henry.

Booked All Night 23:37

I'm like, is this scene too much? And she's like, don't love that. But yeah, I have no idea how people like find the audacity to be like one star, tag the author.

Julee Balko 23:48

I've never been tagged in negative review. Like I said, I've had only positive reactions, like readers have been so kind to me. I know it's gone. Um, but yeah, I don't get it. Because I we are people, and it's like, yeah, remember in sixth grade when you got a C on a test? That made you feel pretty yucky. That's what it feels like. It's like, oh sorry, even though I don't know you, reader, you just like broke my heart, and I will think about it the rest of my life.

Booked All Night 24:11

Yep. It'll be my permanent 3 a.m. thought. Thank you for adding to the bank.

Julee Balko 24:17

Yeah, so I don't I don't quite get it, but there is so much positive from readers that it's like I don't ever want to say anything too negative, because man, none of us authors, like me as a small author, I would not exist without readers who talk about these books and you know, quote them and show them on social media. Like it's a whole world because of because of them. Like, I definitely I can't thank you enough. Um however, if if you hate my book, I mean that's cool. I don't know, don't tell me. Don't tell someone else.

Booked All Night 24:47

Like, yeah.

Julee Balko 24:48

Yeah.

Booked All Night 24:49

So the last couple ones are never have I ever stayed up way too late to finish a book. Exactly. I play dirty. And that is your fifth one, by the way. So we have two left, and you have to spoil something. Never have I ever highlighted a quote and never looked at it again.

Julee Balko 25:07

I don't highlight things. I'm not a highlighter.

unknown 25:10

Huh.

Booked All Night 25:11

I'm I'm a highlighter.

Julee Balko 25:13

I I do love highlight like I had went to a book club where they invited me and I saw my book highlighted, and if I I was just like, I don't know, that was a moment for me. I was like, can I just take a picture of it? Like lots of things I wrote and you highlighted, that's so amazing. But I don't know. I don't know a highlighter.

Booked All Night 25:29

I highlight all of it.

Julee Balko 25:30

Don't judge me. It's okay.

Booked All Night 25:31

It's okay. It's okay. I think I think my my obsession with highlighting is definitely I I was an English major first, and so like highlighting was important because I was reading six books a week and I needed to relive what I wanted to talk about in class very quickly. Uh, but especially here at the podcast, highlighting is a must because we talk like yeah, like we talk about books in little chunks, and then you know, we'll sit down to record and be like, what was this book about?

Julee Balko 26:00

Definitely, you can do it. But you know what? I also I'm a library girl. I get a lot of books from other libraries.

Booked All Night 26:05

Oh yeah, no. Don't highlight in the library.

Julee Balko 26:07

So many books that it's like at a certain point, yeah. Thank you, libraries.

Booked All Night 26:11

Yes, libraries. Very last one is never have I ever spoiled a book for myself on purpose.

Julee Balko 26:18

No, because I told you I'm like really weird and rigid and I don't read ahead and I don't read spoilers, and maybe I should. I'm no fun.

Booked All Night 26:25

Yo, when Sunrise on the Reaping came out.

Julee Balko 26:28

Oh, that was my audiobook. That's the audio book I listened to.

Booked All Night 26:31

I disappeared from the internet while I was reading it. I was like, I can't.

Julee Balko 26:35

So good.

Booked All Night 26:36

I it was amazing. We're actually this season, we're doing a whole deep dive of the Hunger Games, very exciting. Uh goes all the way up to the movie in November, and two of my co-hosts have not read the last two Hunger Games books. So as we're going through the trilogy, I'm like, uh, uh. And I can't talk about it because I don't want to spoil anything for them.

Julee Balko 26:59

Well, shame on them, spoil it.

Booked All Night 27:01

Yeah.

Julee Balko 27:02

Lead up. They should. Oh. I do read comments because I'm like, hi Kolly, I love you too. You're the best.

Booked All Night 27:11

I was gonna say Colin says hi, Aunt Julie.

Julee Balko 27:16

Colin was part of my dedication in my last book.

Booked All Night 27:19

Aww. Very cool.

Julee Balko 27:21

Yeah.

Booked All Night 27:22

So you do have to spoil something from Beyond Act One.

Julee Balko 27:25

Oh, let's see. Well, I told you that there was a hot violinist. Mm-hmm. And there's definitely an amazing scene where the violin lesson gets taken a little bit too far. Is that spoily enough?

Booked All Night 27:39

Yes, that's spoily enough. That's perfect. So these next couple of questions are specifically about writing craft and reading habits. Now you say in your bio that you are drawn specifically to writing complicated characters. How do you personally define a complicated character, and what is your approach to making them feel layered without losing clarity?

Julee Balko 28:02

I guess complicated to me is you don't feel like you saw them in the Starbucks line. Um they make you want to read a little bit more. They're not usually um, I don't know, everybody's flawed. I love flaws, I love Morally Gray, I love complexity, I love the people you think are terrible, but as you get to know them, you can see their heart. So I think I don't know. I just I just like I'm a very character-driven writer and reader. If I can feel like the character and could sit down at the you know kitchen table with me, and then I might not like them, I love that. That's so funny. Like, should I serve you dinner? I don't know. If so, I've gotten it right. Um, and you know, there are lovable characters too, but I just I think people are fascinating, and um my kids will always um this is gonna sound weird. I'll have my phone out and I'll be like taking notes and they'll be like, oh, she's spying on someone, and it's true. I will. I there are different I see of humans or humanity, it could be a beautiful moment, it could be the way like a grandfather is like talking to the a child, and it's like, ooh, that's like just a little capture of humanity. So I love those little layers that I can add into a book, and all my readers uh will say the characters are so relatable, and that's why they're layered and they're flawed and they're weird, and yeah.

Booked All Night 29:20

Uh Joanne specifically wants to know how you conceived of the hot violinist.

Julee Balko 29:25

So I will admit that uh two of my children play the violin, and there have been some wonderfully pleasant violin teachers. But I actually was gonna it started out as a piano uh piano teacher, but then I thought of this one scene and I was like, oh, I need an instrument where the person's like behind them.

Speaker 1 29:47

Yeah.

Julee Balko 29:47

That sounds crazy graphic, it's not that graphic. I also play the violin and I played the piano, so for me, the violin was something I could write about. So while the you know they have had cute teachers, it was really that I could write about a violinist and feel like I got it right.

Booked All Night 30:01

I so I grew up playing uh guitar and I tried to do violin in college. That did not go well. Um but I think like the violin, having somebody next to you and kind of correcting you is less intimidating than having somebody stand behind you. Like my my guitar teacher, whom I loved growing up, we would do uh finger exercises on the piano to purposely stretch out my hands so I could reach all the chords that were ridiculous for my tiny little fingers to do. But it always weirded me out to have somebody standing behind me. I feel like like that's a different connotation of body language for things to happen.

Julee Balko 30:41

Well, and in this lesson that gets a little out of control, he is basically behind her holding the violin while she's in front of him and helping her play. So it's quite an intimate scene.

Booked All Night 30:52

It was so what was uh, if any, what was research like to build out a character like Nicola?

Julee Balko 31:00

You know what Nicola, well, Nicola's fun because she's a vet tech. I love animals, and the thing I learned about the me list, because the me list has a um rescue dog in it, a blind rescue dog. And yes, the rescue dog turns out all fine. I had a lot of readers like the dog doesn't die. No, the dog doesn't die. But I loved writing about animals, so I made Nicola a vet tech, and that was super fun to have all these little moments where I could write because I love animals. I do a lot of rescue work. We always have a rescue somebody hanging out. Um, and I thought that would be fun. But it was actually Maeve, who's the narcissist, that was the tough character. That's where I did a lot of research. Um, because I wanted to get her right, but subtle, right? Again, it's that complexity of this person seems so great. Oh wait, she is actually terrible. Um, so that took, you know, just I find it interesting. I love to learn about different things, so that's why you become a writer, right? You can learn and then put it in your book.

Booked All Night 31:54

Plus, you don't like when you're writing like the bad character, the villain, whatever, like you don't want them to a just be like very blatantly the evil character. And you don't want them to be bad for the sake of being bad for the sake of having this obstacle. Like, they need to blend in, they need to be a part of the story, otherwise, it's like it's too obvious. It's like a caricature.

Julee Balko 32:18

Which I love, I mean I don't love, but most people become friends or have a relationship with the narcissist, and they're not like, oh, I'm having a relationship with the narcissist. No, they seem like wonderful people until something happens, until way down. So I love this idea of this character kind of seeming so wonderful and the support Nicola needs, and found family, which is usually such a positive thing. Ha. Um, we'll see. It gets a little interesting.

Booked All Night 32:44

And the uh final question for this particular section is when you're writing about grief and reinvention, how do you keep the narrative moving forward instead of getting stuck in reflection?

Julee Balko 32:57

Yeah, I think this is something I did I've grown since my first book. Uh my first book also tackled grief because I feel like uh books don't talk about it enough, and I feel like so many people are dealing with it, and it's I always try to write about the stuff I think everybody is lonely with, but nobody talks about. Um, so for this book, I knew I wanted to have grief in it. Um my first book was kind of like grief had just happened, so the character was just kind of dealing with it all. For this, it was about how you carry grief with you, how it becomes your story, and how you can also change your story while still holding on to the past. So it was kind of very, I hope, very delicately done because I knew I wanted Nicola to kind of be able to still love her husband, even though he was no longer there, and but still love herself and move on. I like that.

Booked All Night 33:44

That also brings us to the second game of the podcast. So the second game is literary would you rather? And it's just a simple game of this or that. I have like 10 choices for you to choose from. You'll pick one, tell us why that was your choice. Alright. Okay. The first one is would you rather write only first drafts forever or only edit forever? Oh, first drafts, please. Do it right now. Would you rather have a slow burn romance or instant chaotic attraction?

Julee Balko 34:20

Is this a book or in life?

Booked All Night 34:24

You choose.

Julee Balko 34:25

I was like, well, that just gets super versible.

Booked All Night 34:28

Um very specific follow-up. I know. Wow.

Julee Balko 34:33

Maybe it's time to go. Um in books, I love a slow burn. There is something so lovely about when it finally happens. And I never used to be a romance reader until I decided to write this book, which I knew would have a little bit of romance. But now I totally appreciate that slow burn because yeah, it's great.

Booked All Night 34:53

I am I am here for a slow burn romance as long as miscommunication is not a part of it.

Julee Balko 34:58

Oh, agreed. I hate miscommunication.

Booked All Night 35:00

If I have to read a whole book where they just don't talk to each other I'm going to throw it in a fireplace.

Julee Balko 35:09

Well, I also wondered if it's a neurodivergent thing, because like we'd be like, you just freaking tell them. Like, I'm I'm obviously too honest, but it's like I don't get it. Like, how do you see this person not be like, just tell them the one thing that would make life better? Yeah. I hate it.

Booked All Night 35:22

Yeah, we definitely have read a couple books here where we're like one book in particular, we started off and we were like, oh, like the opening was so great, and oh, the attraction, oh, I love it. And the next time we were like, and by the end of the series, we were just like, uh. And so those were the actual sound files we used to advertise the series. Was just, yeah. I kind of like that. Would you rather have a happy ending or a bittersweet ending?

Julee Balko 35:58

So I love books that make me cry. So my first book, uh, that was my goal. I was like, I'm gonna just kill readers with this man. This is all heart. Um, because I love that. Um, but now I guess the last two, I like I like a sweet, happy ending. Maybe I changed.

Booked All Night 36:16

Okay.

Julee Balko 36:17

I didn't answer. I said I chose both.

Booked All Night 36:20

You're like, haha, whatever. Would you rather have a plot-driven story or a character-driven story?

Julee Balko 36:28

We already know. Character-driven care. I mean, I I'm not gonna say I could care less about the plot, but I kind of could. Um, if it's a good character, I'm in for it.

Booked All Night 36:36

Yep. Would you rather write in silence or with constant background noise?

Julee Balko 36:40

I write in silence, total silence, um, except for uh there are a few of again, these kind of more we'll say spicy scenes. I did what you did and I listened to the same song over and over and over again while I um wrote that uh those specific scenes.

Booked All Night 36:56

I have to have if I have silence, I focus on the silence and then nothing gets done. Uh and it's it's almost like the act of ignoring the sound around me is what helps me to focus. Yeah.

Julee Balko 37:07

That's interesting. Yeah, I only if unless I'm doing I'm a freelance writer, my day job is hey, I'm a writer too. Um, if I have an absolutely terrible project, I will listen to classical music uh because somehow, you know, it supposedly makes your brain work harder. I've I've fooled myself into that, so it's like, oh, it's a real hard project. That's the only time I listen to music. Can't be waiting.

Booked All Night 37:28

If it works, it works. Like that's that's where we're at. I think I already know the answer to this one, but love triangle or miscommunication trope.

Julee Balko 37:35

Yeah, love triangle.

Booked All Night 37:36

Yep. Uh outline everything or discover as you go. You know this. Look, we've learned so much about each other yet.

Julee Balko 37:43

Right? Throw that outline out.

Booked All Night 37:46

One perfect book or a long, messy series.

Julee Balko 37:49

So I had never read a series until my kids got into them. And um one time I gave them a series that turned out to be a little spicier than I realized. So then I was like, maybe I should start whoopsie um reading series with them. And I did like the throne of glass and yeah, loved it. I was like, oh, now I understand why people like series, but I'm still a standalone girl. It's what I write.

Booked All Night 38:10

Give me one book, I can be done with people, but I've I've found a new love for duologies that I I did not have before, where I'm like, okay, like it wasn't enough space for the one book, but like this was a good length. Because college burnt me out on reading.

Julee Balko 38:26

Like, yeah, I did see that. I was an English major too, so I get that.

Booked All Night 38:29

Yeah, you get it. You're like six books a week, and they're like, and now think about them critically, and you're like, I don't know, there were words, I think. Like when I came home from that degree, I was like, I don't even want to look at a menu. Somebody just choose for me. Like, I don't know.

Julee Balko 38:43

I did that a long time too, where I I couldn't, I was like, and because I write during the day, I was like, I can't do books. It felt like work, so I was very glad when it felt better.

Booked All Night 38:52

Yes, I'm I'm so happy for this podcast and to enjoy reading and writing again. It's really nice. Uh, read your reviews or never see them again.

Julee Balko 39:04

Well, they could be good. I do think there's something that inspires me when I know like readers have something's like hit them or like that's lovely, but nah, I guess if I had to pick one, let's just not read them.

Booked All Night 39:18

And the last one is kill your favorite character or rewrite the entire ending.

Julee Balko 39:23

Oh god, I'd love to kill off people. I'd be fine with that. I mean, actually, I'm trying to think if I've killed people. Um, like looking at my books. I haven't killed anybody. People have been died because they've died. Um, but maybe that's a goal for me.

Booked All Night 39:38

That'll be the soundlight for the interview. I'm trying to think if I killed people. No context. You have to listen to the whole of the interview for context. It's fine.

Julee Balko 39:47

Off the rail, let's do it.

Booked All Night 39:49

Wonderful. Which brings us to the actual off the rail section of the interview is my favorite part. Just absolute nonsensical questions.

Speaker 1 39:56

Woo!

Booked All Night 39:57

Oh, and you apparently the YouTube audience is all about silence while writing, so I've been outvoted on the island, apparently. So, if Nicola had to fight one of her problems in an arena, which one is she choosing and is she winning?

Julee Balko 40:14

I guess it would be her loss, and no, she she is not winning. But she will.

Booked All Night 40:20

Eventually. Which character is most likely to send we need to talk and then immediately disappear?

Julee Balko 40:29

Um probably Maeve.

Booked All Night 40:33

If Daisy could control one type of chaos from the world, what would it be and how would she control it?

Julee Balko 40:41

Huh, she's interesting because she's got a lot going on in her brain, as you can imagine. Um, Daisy definitely has a lot of sound issues, so probably if the world was a little quieter, her favorite part in the book is when she gets to go swimming in a lake. And you know, all the sound gets quiet, and it's such a blissful moment until Sage ruins it, but that's okay.

Booked All Night 41:00

Big mood, Daisy Big Mood. Uh if Square Hearts were adapted into a Muppets movie, who plays who? And who is the only human character?

Julee Balko 41:14

Who plays who? Um, I'm trying to think who would be me. You know who would be Daisy? This is gonna be a really random. Who cares? I'm the only one who needs to know about this. There is this little I'm a bunny person, and there was this little bunny that was always on um the Muppets that I liked. His name was Bean. Probably!

Speaker 1 41:36

Producer knows Bean!

Booked All Night 41:38

Producer Rob knows Bean!

Julee Balko 41:40

I need to call myself. I really love bunnies. I love Bean. In fact, I had a bunny named Bean, who turned out to be a jerk, but that's okay. So Bean was just this happy little character, and that's who Daisy is to me, even though she's neurodivergent and causing lots of trouble inside. Like, she's just so beautiful and happy, and she's bean to me. Um, and only the producer understands this, and that's great. The only male, I don't know who the human character is. I always hated the humans and the Muppets. It's like, what are they doing there? It was always creepy to me. Um there was a old farmer guy, he would totally be a good human. He plays the guitar in one of the scenes.

Booked All Night 42:17

I've always thought it was really weird. Like, as an adult, I wonder if the human characters know that the other characters are Muppets, you know, like, or they're just like having this wild hallucination and they're like, no, this is just what the world looks like. Everybody is covered in felt. It's fine.

Julee Balko 42:33

It's all good.

Booked All Night 42:35

If the story took place.

Julee Balko 42:37

I'm still just in love with it. Thank you. Keep going.

Booked All Night 42:40

Uh, if the story took place at a dark magical academy, what would change the most?

Julee Balko 42:47

Who or what? Oh, like about the book?

Booked All Night 42:50

Yeah.

Julee Balko 42:51

I mean, the book's set in North Carolina because I used to live there, and I I actually usually never have a setting in my book, and I thought it would be fun to be like, ah, let's put a setting in. Um in North Carolina's all sunny and happy, and now I live in Seattle where it's miserable, but that's okay. Um, so I don't I guess the setting to me, because to me, the the scenery of that book is so happy and vibrant, and dark academia is like darkness and smell old buildings. Smelly. Yeah. It's like damp, you know, damp books.

Booked All Night 43:20

Yeah. You know, I think I've been in the basement of that particular setting. Yeah. Uh I can think of that specifically at one of the campuses I've been on.

Julee Balko 43:29

That's how you know you've read too many English books and have been in like the bowels of a library when you're like, well, you know, it smells damn.

Booked All Night 43:36

Yeah, it's like it's like half vanilla and half mold. Um, but it's it's pleasant somehow, but also the worst thing you've ever smelled in your life.

unknown 43:46

That's right.

Booked All Night 43:46

Like, yeah. And I want to candle of it. It's fine. It's cool. If your book had a soundtrack, what would the main theme be?

Julee Balko 43:57

I think love. Even though Me, it's self-love, it's not like the cheesy love of falling in love with someone else. I think it's all about loving who you're looking at in the mirror.

Booked All Night 44:07

I love that. And the last one. If hearts are squares, what shape is the brain?

Julee Balko 44:16

Um, let me think. I I the my picture is like, you know, that like storm cloud of sadness.

Speaker 1 44:23

Yeah.

Julee Balko 44:23

That is the brain. Got really into therapy quick, didn't that? But um it's just a very complicated thing. It's definitely not simple.

Booked All Night 44:35

It is just a gray meat slab that makes me sad inside my body.

Julee Balko 44:41

Well, and it can make you understand why a square is so lovely and perfect, but frames are not squares, and neither are hearts, as you will learn. Yes.

Booked All Night 44:51

So, uh final question, and I ask this of all of our guests because books take a lot of people to get out into the world. Is there anyone that you would like to thank today? Anyone from agents to editors to publishers, uh, even workshop partners or your family who may have had to listen to a scene 200 times? And if you've done all the work yourself, feel free to thank yourself because that's a lot of work to do a lot.

Julee Balko 45:10

It is a lot of work. I'm pretty private with my stuff. Uh Joanne, who is on here, is always, she's an editor, she's amazing. She is always the first person I have read the book because I trust her with my life and my characters, and then I make her read it again when I've messed it all up again and she wants to bring it back to life, and she's just so amazing. Um, my friend Jackie is always an early beta reader, but I'm like, I don't know if I can do this, and she's always sees the beauty in everything. And then I write it again and like and I changed it. She's like even better. She's amazing. Um, and all my family always supports me and buys my book. My sister always sends it out to people. My in-laws are on here and they always help me. And we saw Colin was there. Hi. So I feel very, very loved. Um, you know, the hardest part for me is I kept my last name. Uh, because I love my dad, he was super uh inspirational to me, but both my parents are deceased, which means I can write uh parent characters while um read the first book. But it's hard for me not having that support system, so I am very lucky. So many other people have kind of filled in the gaps for me.

Booked All Night 46:16

That is very beautiful and also a wrap officially on this episode of Book Donut. So thank you very much for joining us today, Julie.

unknown 46:24

Yay!

Booked All Night 46:25

Uh, if you want to plug your socials, tell everybody where they can find you, your website and such.

Julee Balko 46:30

Sure, I am all over social because that makes my kids not be. So um, yeah, if you go on threads or TikTok or Instagram, just type in Julie J-U-L-E-E Balco, and you will see me doing something awkward and talking about books.

Booked All Night 46:43

Lovely. Aren't we all awkward online?

Julee Balko 46:46

Yeah.

Booked All Night 46:47

So long. Thanks for staying up with us. Follow us on Instagram and threads at Bookdall Night Pod. Drop a comment to let us know what you thought of today's show, and join our Discord server for giveaways, excerpts, and more. It's still in the works, but we're aiming for a hundred members. Catch our live author interviews on YouTube and leave a question for our guests on our Discord server. Check out our shop and website at bookedallnight.co. That's bookdall night.co. And if you're loving the chaos, don't forget to rate us five stars. Until next time, booklets, and remember to stay booked all night.