Team Asexual Katniss: The Hunger Games, 22-27

Our dive into The Hunger Games continues with that age-old debate: which boy is the right boy? Is there a right boy? Is our hatred of the one boy due to his behavior now, or our knowledge of his later behavior? If there are teenage boys, then why is there none of the hormonally-driven physiology and behavior that we all know comes with being a teenage boy? Or girl, for that matter?

Join Jess, Katy, and Julia as they ask these questions and more, diving into the many-year influence of Suzanne Collins's seminal work, its impact on our hosts' generation, and its relevance to modern culture and politics.

Transcript

Jessica Mary 0:00

I think there's something to be said about classic Shakespearean presentation. Because sometimes they're just so ridiculous. Like, have you ever seen the movie version of King Richard III? But it's set in World War I. And so when he's like my kingdom for a horse, he's just surrounded by fucking tanks. Or the uh the like 2001 Leonardo DiCaprio Romeo and Juliet.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

That's my favorite one. I love that one.

Jessica Mary 0:25

Gross, terrible, fucking awful.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

I'm obsessed with how bad it is.

Jessica Mary 0:29

It is truly bad. I I hate it so well.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

I wish they had a different Juliet, but like It is what it is, yeah. It is what it is. I thought everyone uh Mercuccio was my absolute favorite. But Mercutio is such a good role. He's always my He's always my favorite. Alright, we should get started because I've got a I'm fine.

Jessica Mary 0:52

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes meet craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess.

K. Leigh 0:57

I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for unhinged hot takes.

Jessica Mary 1:02

A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shit. Grab your blankets, booklets. It's time to get booked all night. Welcome to Booked All Night podcast where we already have pre-recorded opening. Why am I doing this? Welcome to Booked All Night. I'm Jess.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I'm Julia. I'm Kaylee.

Jessica Mary 1:20

Thank you. We are about to finish our Hunger Games talk, so if you have not finished yet, you've had 20 years, but okay, hit pause and come back later to avoid spoilers. The quick summary of the section that we are finishing first, and then going into a whole book talk, is Katniss and Pita Bond, and uh we the readers get some proof that he might have been telling the truth. They are forced to the lake to confront Kato, enter the Mutations, a very long and chewy night. No more duel winners, the berries, the no boob job thing, I didn't dream it up, it was not a fever dream. Highlights in the interview and Katniss being dumb, trademark. Where would anyone like to start?

K. Leigh 2:02

So I have a question that I was thinking about all day, because today was when I when I finished the last bit of it. And I don't want to forget it. So you know how in this part she talks about Gail, and if Gail were in the games, he'd do this, or like Pita just is scared of going out to the um the feast and the No, no, no, no. Uh like going past the uh District 12, like in the woods. Past the fence, right? And she says something like, Oh, what would PETA think of what me and Gail talk about when when I'm out there and stuff? And I kind of thought, like, what if it was Gail who was picked for the games? How do you think he would be? I think she'd kill him.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

I think Gail would try to kill her.

K. Leigh 2:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Like right away.

K. Leigh 2:48

Do you think do you think she would like see who he really is and he's like someone like Kato, where we have to get to them first, we have to hunt them, we have to kill them, you know?

Jessica Mary 2:59

I don't know that she would go there first, but I think if it were Gail, that it would be one of those things that it comes down to both of them, and she'd be like, Well, I'm gonna shoot you now, because uh I can't imagine that he would have the same level of teamwork. I I don't want to say camaraderie, but he wouldn't have that loyalty. Is that the word I'm looking for? Or like because PETA comes from a place he's like, I want to help you get to the end, regardless of whether or not we're going to do that together. Where I think Gail would just be like, I have to survive, and if I have to survive, that means you have to die. So bye.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Okay, I have a different argument. Okay. I think that Katniss falls for PETA more so for his compassion. And I feel like Gail would be so ruthless, she would be really turned off by that. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's the thing that would like push her away from him. Because I think he would be the type that like wouldn't understand why she did that thing for Rue. And he wouldn't understand the thing with like Thresh. And I do think he would come across more as Kato, and even right at the beginning, I don't know, I just don't see it going well because he also doesn't have the charm that Pita has. Like right off the bat, when he has that interview with uh Caesar, like she notices the Capitol falling in love with him, and I just don't see it going the same way with Gail. I think he's like full brute force.

Jessica Mary 4:31

Yeah, could you imagine the interview with Gail though? It'd be like, what do you think of the Capitol? I think you can all fuck yourselves. That's what I think of it. Like literally. I don't think that he would even try to attempt to play that game. I think he would just, as you're saying, he'd just be full frontal force, fuck you guys, and be like, oh wow, you didn't get sponsors who could have seen that coming.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Well, and like I think that a big part of them succeeding is Hamich liking PETA. And Gail would not have had the charm to make Hamich like him.

Jessica Mary 5:03

I agree.

K. Leigh 5:04

But so sorry, I wanted to get that out there because that's what I was thinking. I was thinking it would just be totally flipped.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I think a lot of people argue that she would have survived with Gail because he was such a better hunter and stuff, but I think his arrogance would have been his downfall as well.

Jessica Mary 5:19

So I think in this particular seven-chapter chunk, it's a really good thing to bring up like what would have happened if it were Gail, because she is constantly comparing it back to Gail, sometimes in a good light and sometimes in a negative light, where she's like she talks about the meadow that's in the arena, and she's like, Gail would have seen that for something to get food in the way that Thresh did, but Pita would never have to think that way because Pita has never had to go hunting for his food. He's always had food on the table.

K. Leigh 5:50

That's the line where I started thinking about that. Why?

Jessica Mary 5:52

Yeah. Yes.

K. Leigh 5:53

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 5:54

And, you know, there have been a few other lines like that where she's like, I wonder what Gail's thinking back in District 12 versus I wonder what PETA would think if he were back in District 12. And she does have that compare-contrast going back and forth. There's even that a line pretty early on where she's like, I've never really thought of Gail romantically.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Well, I think she's lying to herself.

Jessica Mary 6:15

Yeah, I think she is too. There's a lot in here that I think she's just lying to herself about, particularly around her feelings for Pita. Especially there is that scene there in the little cave, it's like pouring down rain outside, and she's like, So when did you first realize you liked me? Which, you know, quintessential girl question to ask. You're Yeah, well my god. What's your favorite feature, right? So he goes on that and he's like, I remember first day school, you wore this very specific red outfit. You had your hair in pigtails, and my father pointed at you and said that he wanted to marry your mother.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

What a crazy thing to tell your kids.

K. Leigh 6:51

But it explains a lot about why the baker takes care of her family and her and you know on that front, yes.

Jessica Mary 7:01

But also what a weird thing to say to your kids. Like they're starting school, so they're in kindergarten. So, like, let's see I would have been like yeah, I would have been like five or six years old. Can you imagine telling your five or six-year-old, well, I wanted to marry her, but I wound up with your mother?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Like, why did you think of the Gail PETA thing just specifically at the uh field? What made that spark for you?

Jessica Mary 7:26

So she she brings that up about the field when she sees Thresh running into the meadow and the tall grasses and things. And she's just like, yeah, Gail would see that as a hiding space, he'd see it as a place to hunt, he'd see it as a source of food, he'd see it for all these other things that PETA doesn't because PETA has specifically she's saying because he has always had a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

No, I just meant for uh Katie when she said that, how that was like your specific moment that you thought of that.

K. Leigh 7:53

That was the specific moment where I thought, um, what if Gail was in this game? How would he be?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Oh, okay.

K. Leigh 8:00

That was just like the that was the catalyst, and then I couldn't stop thinking about what if Gail was in this game, what would he be doing? Would he be hunting the others, or would he be as compassionate as Katniss, right? Because I mean they're friends, but but but that's that's what I'm saying. I I I misspoke when I said um the whole, like what I what the catalyst was for that question.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

It was it was the um I think a good lit litness test for that is when they saw that girl in the woods when she was running. I don't what did Gail I did Gail say he should have helped her or something? Because I know Katniss struggles with that, but I don't know if that's actually a conversation that they had with each other.

Jessica Mary 8:43

I don't think that it was that they like they had that experience and then they were they both immediately we were like, we have to hide so that we don't get caught.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

I kind of want to go back and look.

Jessica Mary 8:54

I don't think they ever had a heart-to-heart about what that was. There was also another hunting story about Gail in there, but she was lying about it because everybody's watching, so she's like, Yeah, we were um buying food the legal way, and we went to the legal market to get the legal food that we certainly didn't go out of bounds to illegally hunt. Uh that was like weird, and that's that's one of the bonding moments between them two. I don't think the judgment call that we're making, I think, is from having finished the trilogy. Right? We all have knowledge of future Gale and his actions and his words and his fucking attitude. I don't know that we could make that decision book one Gail, because we only see him very early on in the districts.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

See, I am I am like making this assumption just based off book Gale, just so you know. I didn't take Future Gale into uh consideration.

K. Leigh 9:56

I completely forgot about Future Gale until now.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Yeah, honestly, me too, until you said that. So sorry. No, no, that's okay. But I do see like where you're coming from.

K. Leigh 10:08

And I guess you know what else is kind of influencing me, and this is gonna sound really weird. But Liam Hemsworth, because he's the L in the movie, and he's a dick that guy.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

He's a dick. He's a dick to Miley Cyrus. He's a dick guy.

K. Leigh 10:22

And he tried to be the replacement for Henry Cavill in The Witcher.

Jessica Mary 10:27

He looks fucking awful. I am so upset that they replaced Henry Cavill. Liam Hemsworth. I'll give you that Liam Hemsworth is attractive, but he is not attractive as Geralt Olivia. He just not.

K. Leigh 10:40

And the funny thing is, I know that Henry Cavill is like a nerd, a huge fucking nerd. Well that. Well that, but like generally attractive, or like conventionally attractive. Conventionally. That's it. Conventionally attractive. I do find him attractive, but like not, I'm not drawn to him. I am very drawn to him as Journal of Romia.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Like I mean, he's just like the pick. Yeah, please. Um in that show. He's perfect. It's lovely. I know you love those books. I know you love them. You never read the plus? Oh, okay. Well, I've never read the book.

Jessica Mary 11:23

No, just the Avatar books.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

And he's lovely.

K. Leigh 11:26

Okay. Well, I find Henry Cavill above and beyond attractive in The Witcher. And Liam Hemsworth, I do find attractive, not as droll. So it's completely opposite. It's not the same. But he's a dick, so I don't find him attractive at all anymore. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Um, I did find that quote um from when she sees the Avox girl. I remember how the sight of this strange pair, clearly not from District 12, fleeing through the woods, immobilized us. Later, we wondered if we could have helped them escape. Concealed the perhaps we might have concealed them and if we'd moved quickly. Gail and I were taken by surprise, yes, but we were both hunters. We knew how animals looked at bay, we knew the pair, blah blah blah.

Jessica Mary 12:10

Is there any like specific quote from that other than we wondered? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

It's just we wondered. Um, where the girl had seen us, she locked eyes with us and called out for help, but neither Gail or I responded. Yeah. But it's also like they were a lot younger.

Jessica Mary 12:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

And it's kind of shocking. Like it's the first time they're seeing something like that. So I don't know. But I do think PETA would have run after her because he is an action man.

Jessica Mary 12:38

So this whole section, when she is going back and forth now more rapidly than before, about her feelings for PETA. And she still keeps questioning like, is this just show for the games? Is this because he genuinely feels this way? And so there is a moment prior to them having a heart-to-heart where he's like, Yeah, I've loved you since kindergarten, where she's wondering what they have to do to get another gift from Hamich of food. It's right after Thresh lets her go, and Pita can't fathom that he did that. He's like, Why would he do that? She's like, Well, I did a gift, like I took care of Rue, and so he just didn't want to owe me anything, and so now we're even, so if we see each other again, we can kill the other, and we don't have to be uppity about it. And the rest of the conversation is like, oh, besides, the first gift that's always the hardest to pay back, I wouldn't even have been here to do it if you hadn't helped me then. Why did you anyway? Why? You know why? She shakes her head, and he's like, Oh, Hamish said you would take a lot of convincing. She's like, Hamish, what's he got to do with it? Nothing. I think that's a moment for me as a reader to be like, oh, he does j poor thing, genuinely has the feels, TM, for Katniss. And Katniss is one, traumatized, because she's in the games. Could you imagine having to make sense of your feelings amidst hunting and being hunted all at the same time? But at the same time, holy shit, I think if they weren't in the games and he threw a brick through her window with a love note on it, she still wouldn't get the point.

K. Leigh 14:17

We're just friends.

Jessica Mary 14:18

Yeah, we're just friends. He threw me bread once. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

So are you saying that he doesn't understand the compassion in that moment with Thrush? Or because I kind of took that as he doesn't see acts of kindness as like needing reciprocity.

Jessica Mary 14:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Okay, cool.

Jessica Mary 14:39

In in that he's like, why would anybody owe anybody anything in here? And like you didn't do it for him, and also like I gave you bread when we were, I don't know, 12, 11, 12.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, like I've never even thought of this since then.

Jessica Mary 14:52

Why would you have to pay me back for that? That's another part that brings up the he's never had to go hunting for his food. He's never had to wonder where the Max Meal comes from, and so when he gives somebody something, he's never had to hope that they give something back in return because a burnt piece of bread ultimately for him is not life or death like it was for Katniss.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

But he knew that he was gonna get a beating from his mom when he threw that bread at her. So I do think he had a little bit of uh like he he did have some stakes there when he threw the bread.

Jessica Mary 15:24

Some stakes, but I think he knew that he would survive a beating where Katniss would not survive without the bread. So the stakes are thrown the bread. Right into her face. I think I think I think Gail would have cheated on his wife. Oh wait! Oh and then I think Katniss would have pursued a singing career and won a Grammy for a song about him cheating on her, and she would have filmed it in the house that he cheated on her. It would have been petty and lovely and beautiful. Also, I do want to note, because I have it in here, just a few chapters prior to the start of this section, she was almost feral to kill Kato. She was like, I'm gonna kill him, I'm gonna do it, he's gonna die, let's do it, let's go find him, let's go do this. And then she's like, you know, I really don't actually want anybody else to die. I don't want Kato to kill Thresh, and I don't want Thresh to kill Kato. We're all human beings. So I'm like, if two chapters ago, you weren't.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, but like do you guys have been in arguments and stuff where right in the heat of the moment you're like, fuck that guy, whatever, and then like the next day you're like, oh, okay. And I do think like she changes her mind on that after spending like four days in a tent with PETA.

Jessica Mary 16:41

In the cave, while it's like pouring out the bubble.

K. Leigh 16:44

I also think she took some time to think about it because if Kato kills Thresh, they don't have to kill Thresh who they like, but then they have to go up against Kato. And she doesn't want to go up against Kato. So she doesn't want anyone else to die because she doesn't want to have to kill Thresh because she likes him. He's a good guy, but she doesn't want to have to go up against Kato.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

So You know what's funny is she doesn't actually kill anyone after that.

Jessica Mary 17:10

She does. Technically.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Like technically Kato thing is just to put him out of his freaking misery at that point.

Jessica Mary 17:20

Yeah. And even though she still killed him.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah. But like he's she literally says he she looked down and he was a pulp with no discernible features.

Jessica Mary 17:29

Mm-hmm. I have a truncated version of that whole look for when we ultimately get to that. She is responsible for Kato's death, regardless of putting an arrow through his throat later, though. Like I want to talk about the arena mechanics for a moment, as I get to a craft issue that I had while rereading this. And that while I know Julie and I talked about it last week, in that knowing that we are going to repeal the as long as you're from the same district, why bother having the award for two tributes from the same district, other than to put Katniss and Pita together narratively?

SPEAKER_02 18:09

I think it's for the drama for the reality TV show that's yes.

Jessica Mary 18:14

But I also think that they could have been pushed together in another way. As we're shown, you know, there's the firewalls and the fireballs and the dehydrated arena forcing them to the lake, uh, the mutations and like other animals and things in the arena that could have pushed them together if the game makers wanted to. But narratively, let me just finish, because it pissed me off. So narratively, we announced we're if you're both from the same district, you can both win. And that's what craft wise brings them together in the arena. Because prior to that, she's had no reason to go looking after PETA. She was like, cool, you met up with the careers, I'm gonna drop some bees on you, and I'm gonna bounce. Like that was her only thought of PETA was that she didn't want to have to kill him because she thought it would be weird going back to the district. So once Kato was gone and they repeal that, narratively, it felt useless because there were other ways to make the Capitol look cruel and push these two people together.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

So I guess like my initial thought is if I was in the Capitol, I'm watching two people, especially like they're playing up this love story, right? And especially Pita. And I think there was maybe some like unrest or something there, like, oh, it's so awful that they won't be able to be together and blah blah blah blah blah.

K. Leigh 19:39

So I think the Capitol did that to appease the Capitol people, and then knowing they would repeal it after would have been like the big dramatic, oh no, they actually gotta kill each other, and then yeah, realize that obviously that's not gonna happen, but because in the interview with Caesar, when he says, like, oh, I'm with the girl that I love, like she's going into the games with me, the audience had a huge reaction, and then after that, they were really invested in Katniss and Pita because of the love story, and so I agree with Julia. I think it's because the capital audience really wanted the romance thing, they they were interested in that. It's like watching, you know, reality dating TV show. You watch it for the drama, but you also watch it to see the romance start budding, you know, the scripted romance, you know what I'm saying? But but you still like kind of fall for that and get the feel for that, and then and you enjoy the drama. So the fact that Katniss and Pito kept staying away from each other, that didn't make for a good show.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Well, and if they hadn't made that rule, having that thing like kind of be held over their head the whole time would have diminished the potential for the love story to grow. Because there would have been that underlying, like, but I'm gonna have to kill him, but I'm gonna have to kill him, and never really trust him, where she was able to like literally let go and fully trust him, and then that's when they started kissing. Then they got their kisses in.

Jessica Mary 21:13

As we established last week, which is super gross because no one has brushed their teeth since they got into the arena.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Can't stop thinking about that, by the way. Every time they give each other little kisses, I'm like, so gross.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

You haven't brushed your teeth in like two weeks. So freaking gross.

Jessica Mary 21:31

I do think that they could have been forced together and had ships passing in the night moments more often using arena mechanics, which I think would have portrayed the capital as just as cruel because now they're forcing them to maybe fight, to maybe kill each other, to maybe do this, and it would have kept happening. And I think it would have had the same outcome on the capital audience that, like, are they going to actually do this or are they going to like Attempt to stay together until the end kind of thing and that that would still be there.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

I don't think Katniss would have been able to let go as much as she did if that had been there. If the uh removal of having to kill Pito would have been there. But okay, I want to ask Katie a question. Katie, do you think that people in the games fucked?

K. Leigh 22:29

Yeah, it's like Big Brother.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

That's what we all said too. I was like, this is definitely tributes fucked.

K. Leigh 22:36

Oh, absolutely. I think gross. Maybe not in this game, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Oh no, not in this game, but it's probably happened, right? But it's absolutely happened. Nice. Okay, I wasn't alone on that. Perfect.

Jessica Mary 22:50

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Okay, we can move on now.

Jessica Mary 22:54

Oh my god. Katie, have you read Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes? No. And Julia, you have also not read Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Correct.

Jessica Mary 23:05

So my question for both of you is after reading book one, what do you believe the purpose of the games is? As well as like its metaphor of things.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

You want to go first? Do you want me to go first?

K. Leigh 23:15

Uh you go first because I have to think about this question.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Okay. I think the purpose of the games is kind of what Katniss talks about at the beginning. Um, that uh it's like to remind the people that the capital's in charge and we can take your kids. Okay. It's like always there. We're in charge, we're in charge, we're in charge.

K. Leigh 23:34

Population control? Traumatizing people to break their spirits so they have control over them a little bit, you know, more. Reminding them that they can do this, they have the power to do this, don't rebel, all that stuff. Plain cruelty for for entertainment. But definitely I think population control is definitely that's fucked up. I had not thought of that, but that is which makes me think that's actually not the reason now.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

One thing that I thought of was there's a lot of people having kids that they know that are gonna end up in the games. And like Katniss's point kind of near the end of like, I will never get married and I will never have kids because I can't watch that. Like to me, after like 74 years, I feel like less and less people would want to have kids.

Jessica Mary 24:28

That is something that was in my original. So I only left two original notes in it from the first time that I read it. One was why is anybody still having children if this is the outcome to having kids? And the other one was about the mutations, and it was just they spelled mutation wrong. So yeah, that's a glimpse into 2009, Jessica. She's an asshole.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

It's like even now, more so than currently. Like, we now, our generation doesn't want to have kids, and it's not even that like Hunger Games level bad.

Jessica Mary 25:07

That's political and economics for the entirety of the millennial generation, is like exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

So it's like you put that on top of it. But didn't they get something for having kids? Wasn't there like a boon or something?

Jessica Mary 25:20

I don't think so.

K. Leigh 25:21

They got a boon if the child turns um old enough to add into the gains. The games, but they could put their name in more to get the boon.

Jessica Mary 25:33

Yeah. And there was a time limit on that that to put the uh the tesseray into the bowl, which ultimately added their name into the bowl another time. That's why Gales is in there like 42 times, I think he says. But other than that, I don't think that there was any advantage to having children.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

I'm interested in like maybe finding like a Suzanne Collins interview or something if she ever addresses that, like if there was some sort of incentive. Oh, because I found a book and it's um it's not written by Susan Collins, but someone made a whole book pretty much discussing all the attributes in book one. And that was really that was really interesting. Because I know we kind of I'm gonna send it.

Jessica Mary 26:13

And you're obviously going to send it to us, yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

But thank you.

K. Leigh 26:17

That would be definitely interesting. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 26:20

I have to skip over the rest of my notes because I don't want to spoil things from a later book.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

One thing I want to bring up only because you guys already uh brought up this comment. Um, you know when Pete says Hey Mitch said you would take a lot of convincing, and then at the end he is like so shocked that it was a show for Katniss. You know what I mean? Like to me, it's like the line where he says Hey Mitch said you would take a lot of convincing would make me think that he would have kind of been aware of that, right? Or am I reading too much into this?

K. Leigh 26:55

Yes, but I think I think at that point though, he thought that Katniss had come around and actually developed feelings for him because of the performance in the interviews.

Jessica Mary 27:05

Yeah, because by the time she gets to the end, and she's explaining that you know we're in trouble because we were gonna take the Nylock berries, and he's like, Yeah, and she's like, Oh, they just that they didn't like our little show, they didn't like that you know we both won. He's like, but we won because we love each other.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah, I guess that is like kind of at the beginning when they first find each other. So then there's literally six chapters of them in that fucking cave, which I was like, what a waste of time.

Jessica Mary 27:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Right? Like, did you guys think that there was much use in there? I thought that they could have spent more time on capital stuff when they got back.

K. Leigh 27:42

I think they could have spent more time on the banging scene.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

They could have fucked. What is why weren't they fucking why weren't they fucking?

Jessica Mary 27:53

This is this is young adult literature, and it is because they are 16, you fucking bird.

K. Leigh 28:00

Hormones!

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Hello. Also, the fact that they're cuddling the whole time and she never says, like, I felt a boner. That's just never mentioned in the legend. He's spooning you.

Jessica Mary 28:13

He's too dehydrated and injured for a boner, Julia. Give him a break. He's about to lose his leg in a few days.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

He's a child. Those just pop up all willy-nilly. Literally.

Jessica Mary 28:28

Oh my god. Okay, so in the cave, because as Julia pointed out, there's like six fucking chapters of being in this cave. It is pouring down rain outside the entire time that they're in the cave, which is what keeps them in the cave. Fine. But they ultimately have that heart to heart, and Pita at one point says, Do not die for me. You won't be doing me any favors. And I feel like Katniss can't fathom this because her entire love language is acts of service. She's like, What do you mean, don't die for you? Of course I would die for you, because I don't want to be the one that has to kill you. Number one, and number two, I care about you, and caring about you means making big sacrifices and big risks. And he also doesn't care that the other tributes are actively dying for him. In order for any of them to make it to the end, someone has to die so that you don't. And so all at the same time, they are dying for each other, they're dying for their loved ones, they're dying for strangers that they've never met, and they are also dying for nothing but spectacle and entertainment.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

But like for them? I don't know. I think that that that verbiage is a stretch. Like Katniss would be sacrificing herself for them.

Jessica Mary 29:33

I say for them in the note that in order for anyone to make it to the end of the game, someone has to die.

K. Leigh 29:41

Yes, but I think he specifically doesn't want Katniss to be like, well, if it's you or me, I'm gonna go because Pita doesn't think he has a great home life, I would assume, right? And he doesn't he'd rather have Katniss win and go home to her family. And especially because she's so important in in the district with her hunting skills. So I think he's saying to her, like, specifically you don't die for me if if we have a choice, because I don't want that.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Well, yeah, Pita would never be able to go home and have like a pleasant welcome home experience if she had sacrificed herself for him and he won. I also think Pita would have just died, so then both of them would have died.

Jessica Mary 30:26

Which is what he tries to do on top of the cornycopia, right? He's like, Oh, well, it's not it's gonna be me, and he just undoes his tourniquet and he's like, I'll bleed out, what are you gonna do? Which is the weirdest argument.

K. Leigh 30:35

But he's got a point.

Jessica Mary 30:36

Yeah, no, he's got a point. He is gonna bleed out. There is a point in the games, and Caesar also brings it up, where he's like, When did you realize that you had feelings for Pita? And I don't believe that Katniss realizes she has any sort of feelings for PETA. I think she questions them. I think she's like, maybe, maybe it's okay to maybe, possibly. But there is the line where he she's talking about being with him in the arena, and he's like, well, you know, back home, there's a whole bunch of competition, and she outright says, You don't have much competition anywhere. Oh, how cute, and then they kiss, which is gross because they haven't brushed their teeth in two weeks. She imagines at this point that like Hamich is egging her on to express some feelings, but she did like I don't think that she genuinely meant you don't have any competition anywhere. I think that is her thinking, how do I ramp up this romance? How do I sell this to the capital? How do I make that a product?

SPEAKER_02 31:33

I don't think she takes her moment and she sits there and thinks about it for too long to have that be a genuine reaction.

K. Leigh 31:40

Yeah. Well, Caesar also helps her out and says, Yeah, he like coaches the moment, like, this is the moment I'm yes. And she literally, like, in her mind says, like, thank you, because she knows she's in trouble with the capital. And and Hamer says you have to play it up. And this is another thing that bothers me is that this whole book, she doesn't get a chance to make up her mind about who she loves, who she doesn't love. Like, yeah, she's forced to love PETA from from day one, right? To play this up like she has no choice in her own life. Yeah, they kind of just trauma bond, and then she's like shoved together with him, and then right, and and because he loves her, because he loves her, she has to play along. Yeah, right, like they don't even have a choice to go another angle. And and that pisses me off because it's like, okay, well, he loves her, that's great, but like you don't force someone into this. Like, and yes, I know it's you know, for the entertainment, it's the show, and these are kids that are gonna die unless they have like a gimmick, right? But she had no choice, they had no discussion, they had, you know, it's this is what you're going along with, and hey, now you're in trouble, so you have to go along with it even more.

Jessica Mary 32:57

Do you think it might have hit home a little harder if PETA and Katniss had expressed feelings for each other prior to the reaping?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah. I mean, if they even talked beforehand, it would have been better. Like for him to be like, I've been in love with you this whole time, and she's like, I haven't spoken to you once in my whole life.

Jessica Mary 33:17

I've spoken to you maybe once. I think I mouth thank you at you when you tossed burnt bread my way. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

I also think that there was a major disservice done with Hamich just choosing to not include PETA in the we're in danger thing. Like, I think that would have helped his understanding with what Katniss was kind of going through. Like, I don't know why he was not included in that conversation. He's clearly good at acting.

Jessica Mary 33:47

Yeah, I don't know why he wasn't included, period, in the discussion where it's like, I don't think that she likes you back, dude. But in order, like, that no one sat him down and had this conversation with him to be like, so you like this girl. I think it's pretty clear that you know she does her own thing and has no romantic intention toward anybody right now. We can absolutely play up your side of it, but the reality is that she's never going to believe you while you're in the arena. Like, your chance has been blown. Like, there was no discussion like that for PETA.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

But it's also weird that he didn't like come to that conclusion by himself either.

K. Leigh 34:27

Well, I think it's also because this this whole point is supposed to be commentary, right? On boy and girl roles, right? If if a boy loves a girl, oh my gosh, we have to like push that narrative, you know. Lucky yes. Yeah. Like that girl should be lucky that you love her, you know, sort of thing. And I think that's definitely a a commentary, right? Like, why don't you love him back? He's nice.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah. Like, look, he's trying. Why don't you love him?

Jessica Mary 34:56

Yeah, you know, there's also like no medium ground, as I'll just repeat for what producer Rob said for everyone's sake, where he's notes that like part of the conception of womanhood or girlhood is that they all have crushes on someone at some point. And I think the portrayal is you are either boy crazy or you are like catness, and you're like, I don't want to date anybody, I don't want to be involved with anything.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I don't even notice when a boy likes it.

Jessica Mary 35:22

Yeah, I don't even notice I'm too obtuse, right? Like, there's no in between where someone has ever picked it up from someone but not somebody else, or has like had a moment where they're like, Oh, I kind of like that guy, and then they fade out of it. Like they never show the wave. There's only two ends of the bell curve. There's nothing in between of it.

K. Leigh 35:41

And I think since this book has been written, we've we've learned a lot about feelings and sexuality and stuff, and that there's more than you know, two concepts out there. And I think that this was probably a good book for a lot of people who are like, well, I don't develop feelings for someone like like normal, yeah, right? Like I don't have the normal way of developing feelings, like I don't just attach to someone, it takes a lot for me to like someone, you know, sort of thing. And I think that's a good I don't want to say representation because I don't know if that's what what Suzanne Collins was trying to do, but I know it's it's a big part of of life in society now.

Jessica Mary 36:21

Yeah.

K. Leigh 36:21

You know?

Jessica Mary 36:22

I was gonna say I have always been team nobody for catness. That the series ends and she's just like, I am independent, go everybody can go fuck themselves. Or like at this point, now that we have more of the language to say it, like team a sexual catness, that she doesn't have a romantic attraction to somebody because she's literally dealing with things that are more important than a teen romance.

K. Leigh 36:46

I think if she had feelings for Pita, and PETA had feelings for her as 16-year-olds, their hormones would be going crazy, and they'd pull a big brother and grab a blanket. They'd grab a tarp or the sleeping bag, grab a tarp, or the sleeping bag, and try to hide everything from the cameras. Team asexual cat.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Why do you think what was happening with the other tributes that let them stay in that cave for so long? Because that sounds like really bad TV to me. Like four days or more of just plain rain. Like to me, that did not fit the narrative of everything else that was going on.

K. Leigh 37:28

I think it was probably with Kato and Thresh like hunting each other.

Jessica Mary 37:32

Yeah. My theory is that the rain was only happening around their cave.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Oh, interesting.

Jessica Mary 37:38

To keep them there so that they could focus on Kato and Thresh hunting each other in a big field. Because I mean, like, we we see that, right? I brought that up already with the arena mechanics where there's the giant wall of fire, the fireballs, um, we're just getting up to it, but the dehydration of the arena around them, like, which is weird because for four days it was just pouring down rain, and then they're like, oh, the rain stop, and they come out, and there's no water anywhere.

K. Leigh 38:05

Like those game makers could have flooded that cave to get them out if they really wanted to.

Jessica Mary 38:10

Yes. And and like that's part of my point of bringing it up that there were so many other ways to get Katniss and PETA together and like looking at each other, than to have the okay, well, the arena makers have decided that if you're both from the same district, you can live at the end. Like there were more creative ways for them to have done that.

K. Leigh 38:30

Yeah, but again, I just think that her emotional reaction was what the audience wanted, right? Where she realizes that it goes PETA, and you can be like, okay, well, she actually really does care for him, instead of being thrusted at him and being like, oh hey, hey, hey, uh promise not to kill each other for now. You know?

Jessica Mary 38:52

Yeah. That does bring us to the final battle at the lake and the mutations and Kato dying throughout the entire night. So they dehydrate the arena, which forces them toward the lake because they're not going to have anything to drink or any sort of like moisture in the air until they get to the lake. And they're like, now we're out in the open, Kato's gonna be able to find us, we're just waiting at this point. And he comes through screaming. He's just running out of the forest, and they're like, What the hell? And then all of the mutations come after them, which chases them all up the cornucopia. Again, arena mechanics. Once they're up there and they have that fight off, and Pita takes his own blood and makes an X on Kato's hand, like, fine, cool, nice imagery, and Kato goes down and he's getting torn out. I truncated this at the diner today, but here is a rather long section. We hear him hit, the air leaving his body on impact, and then the mutts attack him. Pita and I hold on to each other, waiting for the cannon, waiting for the competition to finish, waiting to be released, but it doesn't happen. I can't understand how he can be surviving until I remember the body armor, and I realize what a long night this could be. I don't know how long it has been, maybe an hour or so, when Kato hits the ground and we hear the mutts dragging him back into the cornucopia. But there's still no cannon. Night falls and the anthem plays, and there's still no picture of Kato in the sky, only the faint moans coming through the metal beneath us. The next hours are the worst of my life. The cold could be torture enough, but the real nightmare is listening to Kato moaning, begging, and finally just whimpering as the muffs work away at him. It takes a moment to find Kato in the dim light, in the blood. Then the raw hunk of meat that used to be my enemy makes a sound and I know where his mouth is. Pity, not vengeance, sends my arrow flying into his skull. Did you get him? The cannon fires an answer. That was the most violent thing in in the book.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

I don't know, I feel like I was so desensitized at that point, like it didn't bother me, I think, as much as it should have.

K. Leigh 40:58

It makes sense though.

Jessica Mary 41:00

Right, but like that's that's the point. Is we've seen all this other yeah, we've seen all this other violence, and so by the time we come up and we spend the night listening to somebody getting torn apart and ripped and eaten.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

See, I think they could have spent more time on. That's two lines of them being like, and we spent all night listening to the hymn. It's almost like it feels like a summary instead of like her really sitting with it.

Jessica Mary 41:26

That's because this was a summary. I truncated a lot of this. This was actually like a couple pages worth of description of him getting torn apart.

K. Leigh 41:34

But it doesn't really say that they're like biting him little by little and tearing him apart. Like he's just laying there.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

But they kind of are though. Like he you can see them biting him and stuff.

Jessica Mary 41:44

Yeah, that's they're like talking, there's parts of him talking about chewing, and they can hear that, and like he's whimpering and crying and begging. And prior to, you know, we hear him hit their, you know, and his body's on impact, he's fighting them actively. And she's like, Why is he surviving? Oh, right, he's got body armor. Good for him. A lot of good that's doing. There's also the moment before this when she looks into the eyes of the mutts and sees that they're from the other tributes.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

That was more disturbing to me.

K. Leigh 42:15

That was definitely a lot more disturbing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

And then yeah, they just get back to the capital.

Jessica Mary 42:21

And boob jobs. Yeah, boob jobs. Boob jobs that I did not imagine. Boob jobs that were argued about.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Do you feel vindicated?

Jessica Mary 42:27

I do, actually. I do.

K. Leigh 42:30

That's okay. I felt I felt vindicated about the whole school thing, where they were in school together. Mm-hmm. Because I brought that up.

Jessica Mary 42:37

Yeah.

K. Leigh 42:37

So you feel vindicated about your boobs.

Jessica Mary 42:41

It's not my boobs. It's her boobs. And she doesn't even get new boobs. She gets bra padding because Hamich made such a shit fit.

K. Leigh 42:47

Fine. You feel vindicated about a 16-year-old's boob job.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Love that for you.

Jessica Mary 42:53

No, she doesn't get the boob job.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

That's what I feel vindicated about. It's mentioned.

Jessica Mary 42:58

Yes. It's mentioned. I also I I do agree with Julia here that we could have cut six chapters of the cave to have more time back in the Capitol for the repercussions of what they've done.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 43:12

Not only that we could have find out, we could have found out that Pita lost his leg prior to the interview instead of uh, yeah, well, I lost it. And she's like, that's my fault. And he's like, Oh yeah, your fault that I'm alive, and then they just move on. Like, I don't know. I feel like there could be more discussion.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

Like, I forgot that he lost his leg. Fully left his library. Gone.

K. Leigh 43:32

If I ever say that I remember a book that I read like, you know, ten years ago, and then I feel confident that I'm not sure. Just me. Because I I forgot like 75% in that book.

Jessica Mary 43:43

Even if it was a year ago, I've forgotten seventy five. I read so many books, and even while we're doing these discussions, right? Because we only read like seven to ten chapters a week, depending on the book, I once I finish my ten chapters, I start reading another book. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

I'm fully reading like six books.

Jessica Mary 44:00

Exactly. And so if you were like, so Jessica, what happens? And I'll be like, oh, well, then they um, you know, they went to the farm and the pigs started telling them all these fascist ideas. Wait, no, that's not the right book. Uh, but then the government told them that they had to um not believe their eyes and ears. Wait, nope, wrong book. Uh then they all had this blood ceremony where they dripped stuff over hot rocks. Wait, nope, wrong book.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jessica Mary 44:28

Yeah. Don't ever trust me if I'm like, I've read this book a year ago and stuff happens in it because I it could have been the dictionary for all you know, and my brain is just like, you know, it's all the same.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

They've all got words. I have to go pretty soon.

unknown 44:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

But this was fun. Yay! I hope you guys have a lovely finish end to your discussion. Okay, bye guys. Oh, goodbye.

Jessica Mary 44:51

Bye. Like Julia had said, they spend an awful lot of time in the cave, and that really could have just been squished down and accordion together before they went and murdered Kato and listened to him get eaten all night.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 45:04

And then we could have seen more of the Capitol and more of things that I know that we wind up seeing in Catching Fire, but we could have seen glimpses of it here. Right. Where, you know, people are super fans and they're doing their hair like Katniss does her little braid, and maybe they start wearing like District 12 stuff, like they really get into their fandom of the latest victors, especially because it's victors plural, and it's never happened before in the history of the game. I think this also could have been a time where they might have been able to have a talk that, you know, Katniss doesn't understand her feelings, and given the context with which she discovered your feelings, can you blame her? I think more could have happened post-arena, uh, especially consequences-wise.

K. Leigh 45:52

Uh yeah, and and she even says that they don't do interviews with the victor for a couple days after, right? And we see why. Um, we see her in the hospital, we see her, them trying to get her to eat and kind of like not fatten up, but you know, not be skin and brains and all this stuff. And I feel like you're right, but she was also unconscious for a lot of that time. Are the other victors the same way where they where they spend days and days and days in the hospital and then they're just thrown into the interview once they wake up, or do they have some time, you know, like to walk around to meet people, to kind of go on like a press tour sort of thing?

Jessica Mary 46:37

Yeah. And she does have some downtime because she starts looking for PETA almost immediately when she's like, I'm able to get up and move around the suite. And she's like, goes up to the roof and she's like, he's not on the roof, he's not down here, he's not in the breakfast, he's not whatever. And they actively keep them apart because they want their reunion to be live on television, entertainment. But I feel like they're sneaky and conniving enough that they could have found a way to each other and maybe have had that, or even had Hamich sit him down and be like, hey. So let's talk girls. Yeah, let's talk about girls and trauma bonding and how that's not necessarily great. I think by a modern day standpoint that that's that's one of the failings of the book. The other one I already prattled on about that maybe we didn't need the two victor thing. In the moment in that time, like in 2009, uh, it ended in the perfect way, that they're about to step off and go home. And Pita gives her the I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed tone, which is like, what is it? It's uh one more time for the audience, he says, his voice isn't angry, it's hollow, which is worse. And then they're about to step through the doors. I think here we should have seen that go through, because in another book that I can't talk about until you guys get to read these other books. So here's another note. I think Rob should just keep a file of all the times I'm not allowed to talk about things, but this is another thing where we see another person get to go home to some uh things that happened to that person. And that's all I'm going to say, so I don't spoil it for my co-hosts.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yes.

Jessica Mary 48:23

Yes. But I I kinda wish that we got to see that. I wish that we got to see a little of the interviews where Pita is especially cold to her, because I know we're going to see that in catching fire.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yes.

Jessica Mary 48:34

I just like like a few things just kinda needed to shift into the first book, and there would be plenty of space if we got rid of the time in the cave.

K. Leigh 48:41

I I liked it the way it was, honestly. And yeah, I did get a little bored, but not but not like to the point where I'm like, they could have cut that, you know, like I don't know. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed rereading it again.

Jessica Mary 48:56

I did too. I thought that I might not, because a lot of times when I go to reread things from my youth, it's not as magical, or the writing quality is like highly reflective of the times because the last ten years have been like a golden age for children's literature and YA in general, and there's there's been a whole bunch of new understanding of writing for young adults versus when we were target young adult audience, and they kind of wrote at you, and nobody wrote for you. They were just like, This is an appropriate topic for a 16-year-old to read, and we were like, cool, I'm gonna go read adult books because you suck.

K. Leigh 49:39

Honestly, uh the commentary and and what was written and everything so far in book one has aged pretty well. Uh and which is sad. And I was just gonna say, which shouldn't have happened. It shouldn't have aged that well. Um, but it has. And it's one of those books where you're like, wow, we're we're still still dealing with these times, but it's ten times worse now. It's not just about the reality TV commentary anymore. It's literally the government.

Jessica Mary 50:14

It was never just about the reality TV. Part of it was like what we are willing to stomach next to each other. I have seen an interview with her where she was talking about like the coverage of the Iraq war. And so she'd be like, watching a Saturday morning cartoon, they'd show a clip of some pretty horrific wartime scenes and then go back to just content. Right. And and she was like, after a certain point, uh it didn't bother me when I saw these clips. And I when I read that interview, I was also thinking about the stuff that we'd seen as kids, which Maggie and Julia probably didn't. Like we saw a guy executed on on a live stream, and we actively watched the newsreel of 9-11 and saw people jumping out of the building. Like these are things that were live.

K. Leigh 51:09

They they weren't just not only live, but then the documentaries that were aired live, and people were like, Oh, let's watch this documentary, you know. Like, I know now that like with documentaries, you normally don't see those on live TV, right? They don't air them on the big channels. But because it was 9-11, it was covered live, they aired the documentaries on major television networks. You could be flipping around channels and stuff and and and not be like, okay, I'm gonna self-consciously sit down and choose to watch this on my streaming platform. It was just in your face and it was everywhere. Let's break out the popcorn and have a family TV night watching this, you know, horrible shit.

Jessica Mary 51:53

They do the same thing now. There's all the protests in in Minnesota, and they actively block, you know, the peaceful parts of it, and then all you see are clips of people ultimately being executed by the government because that's what's happening. And there's there's no filter, there's nothing, it's just there, and you see it, and eventually you start scrolling past it instead of absorbing it, not only because you have seen it already, but your mental health can't take that anymore.

K. Leigh 52:21

Yes, and I I know someone who posts a lot about like Gaza and Palestine and stuff like that, and they and they share images, and I I have to scroll past because one, I don't want to become desensitized, two, I can't mentally handle that. Three, I can't emotionally handle that, you know, like especially having a child of my own, you know what I'm saying? And just and I knew I couldn't handle it because of the Ukraine situation. I watched the Ukraine situation on TV, and I just constantly cried and cried and cried watching people board trains and and different transportations trying to get out of Ukraine and kids crying and and I'm crying, and I just was like, I can't keep doing this to myself. Yeah, I know it tries to get people to speak out and stop it and stuff like that, and I'm all for that, but I I just with everything going on, there's only so much I can pick and choose to be informed on at this point.

Jessica Mary 53:20

Yeah, it's wild to me how relevant this and other dystopian literatures are. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it angers me in such a steaming, filling up a hot air balloon sort of way because it is so everywhere. It's there's a word for it, uh omnipresent. There we go. You can't look anywhere, you can't listen to anything without uh consuming it in some way. And that's part of the message here. The districts are literally forced to watch this.

K. Leigh 53:58

Yes.

Jessica Mary 53:59

There is no way around it, and the capital enjoys watching this, but they have a different attitude toward. There's also all of the language used around speaking about the districts, right? There's so much confusion about what actually happens in other districts. We learned from Rue that just because they make all the food in District 11 doesn't mean that they're actively getting food in District 11. You know, there's ways that they have to come down and they can't be seen taking breaks and they can't do this, and so some districts we learn specifically through Rue are even harsher than District 12. But the language that has been used around it is that, you know, these people are trash and these people are less than human and these people are not people, which justifies when you watch a tribute from another district die. Right. Which is part of what is happening right now, where you know we say they say illegal immigrant instead of just an immigrant, because as long as they have the modifier in front of it, it makes you think of them as less than human.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Yes.

Jessica Mary 55:05

Which, you know, where have we seen those techniques before? The reason that that happens is so that you become both desensitized and morally okay with what is happening. Because as so long as they are less than human, you're okay with any treatment they get. And that's what happens here, and that's why it is still relevant, that's why it's important to re-examine dystopian literature or literature in general, because literature makes us empathic to other people, literature teaches us about worldviews that we would not otherwise get in our everyday life. And dystopian literature especially teaches us that in banding together we can overcome things, that it will be a journey and it will be a battle, but that together we can overcome things.

K. Leigh 55:50

Right. And it also, like I guess when you rebel, you gotta be prepared to lose people or yourself. You know, because it's it's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be easy and it's not gonna be quick.

Jessica Mary 56:04

Yeah. The last thing that I want to say about it, because this is another big things that Suzanne has actually said that you know she was actively thinking about when drafting the Hunger Games, is the idea of just war theory, as in like what ideas justly lead us to war and the penalties and consequences of that that we justify. And it's really the same thing because as we sit here and we say like their ideas and they're terrible, blah blah blah, on the other side, they're also saying their ideas, and everyone thinks that they're on the right side, and that's part of the danger of all of it, because it is so extreme that even on our side, where we are like everyone's a person, we all believe that that is correct, and I truly, with my whole heart and chest, believe that that is correct. But on the other side, they also believe, yes, every white person is a person. Every person who is not from a specific country is a person, everyone who is not of a specific sexuality is a person, and there's there's always a new line to draw it to.

K. Leigh 57:18

I came from the other side as well. I was raised opposite, right, of what I believe now. And uh you're right with the whole just because you say illegal immigrant, right? Like, oh well, they commit crimes, they do this. Okay, but does that really justify them being getting shot in the street?

SPEAKER_03 57:38

Yeah.

K. Leigh 57:38

And sure, there are some criminals where the death penalty should be applied to, right? You know, certain ones, really horrible ones, but that doesn't mean you don't get to go through the justice system. That doesn't mean you get to be killed on the street, right? You have to be um judged by a group of your peers.

Jessica Mary 58:01

It's almost like there's an amendment in the constitution of the. Also, criminal is like a very big umbrella term because you could be arrested for possessing marijuana, but that is not the same as being arrested for murdering somebody.

K. Leigh 58:33

Correct. Correct.

Jessica Mary 58:35

So gotta weigh those out.

K. Leigh 58:37

And and also because someone has a criminal past doesn't mean that they haven't changed.

Jessica Mary 58:43

This this book has aged like fine wine, and I don't like it.

K. Leigh 58:47

Yes.

Jessica Mary 58:47

I mean, I love it. I love this book, I love dystopian literature, but I hate that it is still relevant. I hate that we have not learned our lessons, I hate that we continue to repeat history, I hate that there is a cult of ignorance in the world. I hate hate. I hate hate. I hate hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Low the entirely it just it blows my mind that there are so many opportunities to learn, and that there are people who will always go, no, I don't want to.

K. Leigh 59:20

But then there's also people who erase history, so you can't even learn it.

Jessica Mary 59:25

Yes, and we also know that they actively did that in the Capitol, like they're doing right now, or they're printing books. Here's the thing, right? So when when we were kids and we learned about history, I use Thanksgiving as an example all the time when I go on this rant. We learned about Thanksgiving in that we were friends with the Indians and they gave us help when we came to their land. That was the story that you learn.

K. Leigh 59:47

I mean, it happened, but is that the majority of kids?

Jessica Mary 59:52

We uh we conveniently leave out the rape and the scalping and the syphilis-infested blankets and the amount of diseases that we brought and the enslavement, the systemic genocide. Uh, and that's before we even get to slavery trademark in the South. Like, that's just what we did to indigenous people. We don't learn about that till college, and only if you take like upper level history classes. Because otherwise, it's still just glanced over. In fact, I didn't learn about that until I specifically took a US Constitution class and had Armstrong, and she made us watch a great many documentaries.

K. Leigh 1:00:33

This is an example of the mental exhaustion.

Jessica Mary 1:00:35

I just want to get back to the book because I want to get back to the book because the book is fiction, and I know that the trilogy ends on a kind of happy note, right? Like kind of, yeah. I think that is important to end on.

K. Leigh 1:00:51

Yes.

Jessica Mary 1:00:51

That I do want to get back to the book. I want to continue reading, I want to get back to a world that these events are strictly fiction.

K. Leigh 1:01:00

But I also think I think that the these books should make a uh a huge major comeback, you know? And we should be forcing it down people's throats.

Jessica Mary 1:01:11

I believe that as well. That dystopian literature, as I said earlier, teaches us to band together, and that in banding together that we can overcome the evils of the world. And I think I think we need that message.

K. Leigh 1:01:25

Sorry. It made me think of the It made me think of the Instagram story that I posted today about watching Star Wars with someone who supports ice. And it's like, and like the guy is just like, oh, here we go. We're creating the empire. Let's go. Yeah, and then like it's the scene with the kid where Anakin's walking to the Jedi, you know, the young Jedi kids. And it's Order 66. Yes, and the kid just like the little blonde bull cut kid um goes up to him, and the guy is just like, see, he's like, that's threatening, that's threatening. And then you see like Anakin like um start his lightsaber, and he's like, he's doing it in self-defense, he's doing it in self-defense. You cannot come at Anakin like that. That is threatening. It's totally on the kid. The kid was wrong.

Jessica Mary 1:02:15

I have also seen uh, you know, how how we know that it's a fascist regime and Star Wars is one of them in that everybody is masked. Uh so like they've got all the helmets and then they break up the Hunger Games row, the peace uh the peacemakers all have helmets and like like a whole bunch of other media. That it's just like if you're wearing a mask while you're doing it, you're not on the right side. I know. And I can't help but point out the Nazis didn't even mask themselves.

Outro 1:02:47

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