Being in Business
Being in Business is a podcast for conscious entrepreneurs and online business owners who want more than tactics - blending digital marketing, wealth building, and self-leadership with the inner work that makes success sustainable.
Being in Business
When Biohacking Becomes Bypassing: Rethinking Cold Plunges, Recovery, and Hustle with Dr Kokes
You’ve read the mindset books. You’ve optimized your calendar. You’ve even flirted with biohacking. But you’re still tired. Still wired. Still wondering why you can’t just feel better.
This episode is the nudge you didn’t know you needed.
Dr. Kokes (AKA Dr. Nikole MacLellan), naturopathic doctor and nervous system whisperer, joins me to talk about the real root of burnout in high-achieving women. Spoiler: it's not your lack of willpower, it’s your biology waving a white flag.
If you’ve ever felt like you’re doing everything right and still feel off… listen to this.
Inside this episode, we get into:
- redefining elite performance beyond athletes
- common patterns of overload, gut issues, and nervous system dysregulation
- recovery as a cycle: when to push and when to walk
- cognitive load, brain fog, executive function strain
- how hydration and minerals reduce pain and improve energy
- cortisol vs adrenaline and the sugar craving loop
- CO2-tolerance breath work and micro-dosed calm
- choosing quality supplements and therapeutic dosing
- protein goals that fit real life and digestion
- trusting intuition, setting clear goals, and informed consent in care
Connect with Dr. Kokes on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sportsdockokes
Book with Dr. Kokes: https://www.proactiveperformance.ca/naturopath/nikole-maclellan
Urban Retreat in Halifax January 2026: https://www.instagram.com/p/DR93TffEeKx/
Enjoyed this episode? Come tag me and say hi on Instagram to let me know: https://instagram.com/cjdimmock
The Being in Business Podcast shares general information for educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and it does not create a doctor or patient relationship. Nothing in this episode or any linked material should be used as a substitute for professional medical guidance, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your own qualified health provider with any questions you have about a medical condition and never delay or disregard professional advice because of something you hear here. Use of this information is entirely at your own discretion and risk.
SPEAKER_03:And then if we're in a nervous system response, like what is your body essentially trying to do? It's running away from that bear, right? And what do you need when you're running away from a bear? Energy. And what's going to give you the most energy? Like these types of quick sugar hits. And then, you know, to add on the dopamine effect there too, like we're also seeking that pleasure pretty consistently, too, because we're, you know, drowning out our dopamine stores with socials and the amount of work that we're doing and all that sort of stuff. Dr.
SPEAKER_02:Nicole McClellan is a naturopathic doctor whose mission is to remove the hidden barriers limiting performance for athletes, elite performers, and people navigating life in full throttle. Her background is a high-level athlete and her deep training in brain, nervous system, and breath work makes her uniquely positioned to work with busy, high-performing women who are seeking something beyond mainstream solutions. And she is also my naturopathic doctor. Thank you so much for being here, Nicole. Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to do this. I'm really excited too. All right. First and foremost, I want to know what does elite performer mean when you say that? And what are the different types of elite performers you see in practice? Like, are we just talking about athletes or who else are we talking about?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's such a good question and asked so often. So, kind of how I see elite performance is just like if you're trying to do something in your day better. So a lot of people ask me, like, hey, I'm not an athlete, can I come see you? And I'm like, Yeah, are you trying to get better? Are you trying to, you know, like evolve and change and you know, see what your potential is and see what's out there for you? And that's what I call elite performance. And sure, there's like different echelons of that and what that could look like. But I think performance is something a lot of us strive for on a daily experience. And, you know, my experience with women too, like we're try trying to perform at work, we're trying to perform at home, we're trying to perform as a mother, we're trying to perform in all of these different aspects. So to me, I really qualify that as like elite performance, even though not everyone would kind of like see that in themselves.
SPEAKER_02:That makes so much sense. Yeah. It really is the people who are taking on a lot of different things or just want to do the things that they're doing at a really high level at their best. I know for me, if I'm not doing something at the best level that I can be doing it, I feel it. And it bothers me. And that's actually why I come to you, because I don't want to live like that. I know what it feels like to perform at that high level. And so why not? Why not attain that? So, speaking of which, if we look at this subtype of client of patient who is in their, let's say, 30s or 40s, they're a mom, they're maybe a business owner. I might be talking about myself here. But if you look at that category as a whole, and if they're walking into your practice, what are they most commonly presenting with now? What are the conversations that you're having to have? What are the symptoms that they're presenting with? What are they telling you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they're fried for the most part. And like in so much compassion and grace for everything that um women and men are dealing with today in society. But I think um we're kind of I feel like we're catching them at the moment where it's just like, I cannot do this anymore. I cannot handle this load anymore. And like my initial conversations are usually like, well, you're never meant to carry something like this. You were never meant to carry the load to this extent to which you are. So I guess symptom-wise, I see tons of gut stuff. Gut is a huge aspect of what I work with. Um, I guess in in a lot of like social media, we're bombarded with the idea of hormones and sex hormones specifically, perimetopause, menopausal changes, all that sort of stuff. So I think people are asking a lot of those questions, which are really great questions. Um, and then I think what I bring a lot of this back to is like nervous system dysregulation. So wherever they come in with symptoms, oftentimes, whether that be my own bias, it really originates from the nervous system. And that plays out into all the other organ systems. And um I think even just bringing some awareness to that, bringing some understanding to that, and just seeing how the body works in like this massive whole instead of these individualized parts. Um, like you can't just fix the hormones, you can't just fix the gut. It's just like this entirety. And the tough thing is, like, a lot of the recommendations or questions that I have for people, like, are we living the life that we're supposed to be living with all of this pressure and stress and you know, the more North American hustle idea and productivity to self-sacrifice? You know what I mean? This huge um pressure that we put on ourselves. So I don't ever ask people to like change their life, just like a quick check-in to say, like, if you're extremely passionate about all of this stuff, is there a way we can do it where we also incorporate recovery? So I think we're capable of the most amazing things ever, but also we need to recover appropriately for that.
SPEAKER_02:What does recovery look like in that scenario? Or what can recovery look like in that scenario?
SPEAKER_03:I think so many different facets. So, I mean, we often prioritize exercise, which is great. Um, but oftentimes to the extent where we, you know, never have a rest day, we um are so hard on ourselves for missing a workout if it doesn't work out that day. We're juggling all the stuff at home, all the work stuff, all of the future-oriented stuff, all the child stuff, and then trying to like program for ourselves and trying to get the right workout and you know, everything's saying high-intensity interval training, and like maybe that's the day you should just put your shoes on and go for a nice walk. And throughout the walk, not beat yourself up for not getting the high intensity interval training that day, you know? So I'm not saying don't red line. I'm not saying don't push your body. I'm just saying there's just such an ebb and flow of listening to um the cues that your body's innately trying to tell you to be able to discern which day is which.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like you're in my head right now. Because I recently got back into the gym, right? And one of the things that I notice now I'm 35 versus when I was much younger. I mean, I started hitting the gym when I was 15 and a track athlete. And even the difference between now and my late 20s, I'm trying to adhere to this program where we are doing pretty heavy lifting and I'm aiming, I'm like, oh, three days, but it's taking me a full, full day after to recover. Like, I can't do two of those days in a row now. And that's a big difference that I'm noticing. And I was beating myself up for it. I'm like, you know me, uh, if I'm gonna do something, let's go, let's go. And I was beating myself up because I wanted to hit, you know, four or five days a week in the gym doing these workouts. And I just had to level with myself and be like, I can't. And then I actually notice I have better and more consistent energy doing those workouts less and prioritizing things more like walking, like exactly what you've just said. I feel like you're in my head because that's something that I really have noticed lately for me. And it feels like a significant change. And what you said there about not beating yourself up when you go for the walk, that is really the key. Because if you're somebody who has identified previously about doing everything to the highest and almost competing against yourself, right? That's something that I've always tried to do, compete against myself. You really do have to reevaluate and accept where you're at and the phase for me, I mean the phase of life that I'm at, the other things that I might be dealing with health-wise, like that's gotta be tough. Do you see resistance? Of course, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Like, love everyone for the resistance and love and like question me all the time and like be like, no, you know your body better than I will ever know your body. I'm just like taking the science and trying to like blend it into something that realistically would fit your protocol and maybe uh in some instances give people allowance for a little bit more grace in how they're showing up for themselves. Um, so I think the resistance often comes for, as you had said, like I've always done it this way. This, but like before you didn't have a kid, you didn't have um the degree of the business that you have, you didn't have all of these other responsibilities on your plate. So if we think, you know, that age-old bucket analogy, everything is pulling from your own cup. And if we're not recognizing and supporting that, then that's problematic. And that's what leads to under recovery. And then under recovery, if we just let that go long enough, we're probably gonna look out some type of burnout in that instance, too, right?
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. Yeah, and that that makes so much sense. Where what are your thoughts on all of these more trendy pieces that we're seeing when it comes to recovery? I know that there's a lot of debate specifically over things like cold plunges and what is and what's not appropriate for the female body specifically. Do you have an opinion on that? That's something that I still feel hung up on because I don't want to, you know, send my body into a place where it's gonna make things worse, but I also want to use the tools that are appropriate and are gonna help.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, definitely. There's so many thoughts to go out here. And I guess, like to start the conversation, like we've only been studying women's bodies for a short period of time. Um, and I'm excited to see what comes out in the future. And some amazing scientists are doing some really, really great work for women. It's just gonna take some time before we have like solid answers. So a lot of the stuff that I've been seeing lately uh around like cycle syncing and around cold exposure and around heat exposure, like there's some there's some science behind it, but but really what we're trying to get after is for you to listen to your body. Like if you hate cold exposure and it causes a massive nervous system activation for you, and the rest of the day you're shivering and you have rainodes, like maybe that's not the thing for you, you know? Or um with cycle sinking, like some people on their cycle, on their period, they feel horrible and don't want to go to the gym and really need rest. And then I think about in those instances, like, should we check their iron? Should we check do some blood work, see why they feel so low at that time, not necessarily like you have to gear down and do nothing. And then in the performance world or in the athletic performance world, like sometimes competition lands on those days too. So we have to be able to push ourselves within those limits. So when somebody kind of comes on social and says, like, you have to do this at this time, and you have to do this at this time, that's assuming that every cycle is a 28-day cycle, and then everyone ovulates on day 14, and this is how it goes. And that just isn't real, and that's just not how it works. But I love the ideas being thrown out there. I love um new ideas for basis of science. And I love for women to start like, huh, is that me? Oh, interesting. Let's start tracking some of this stuff, let's just start to see how I feel. So it's all information. Sometimes it's super overwhelming, but I think the main theme that I take from a lot of this is like, well, how do you feel within all of this?
SPEAKER_02:What would you say to somebody who has a hard time knowing how they feel after something? What would you tell them? How do you start to crack open that process? And what are the signs? I mean, I I know you had mentioned after cold plunges things like shivering and rainodes. Um, and maybe for for those who don't know what rain nodes is, maybe we can explain that. But even beyond that, what are yeah, what are these pieces? How do you start to crack that open for people who are feeling incredibly disconnected from their bodies? Because I think that this can happen for a number of reasons, and especially for people who have had kids too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I think um there'll probably be some individualization here, but if I was to generalize some ideas, like I guess I would speak to a bit of under-recovery at this point. So if you're constantly sore, if you lack motivation to get up and go to the gym, if after the gym workout that's like you're spent, that was the rest of your energy for the day. If um you find yourself like more short-tempered or quick to frustration, if periods start to change pretty significantly for you, if appetite goes somewhere, if libido starts to change, like all of these are signs to me that we're we're pushing at all levels and maybe not the right levels. So again, I always like to highlight I think we can do anything. We just have to incorporate the recovery with it too. You can't go max effort all the time. And I think um when we think about training, and if training is a good example for people, like if I got you to hold a 25-pound weight over your head for an extended period of time, like eventually it's gonna drop, you know. So I always highlight in practice rest between sets. Why in the gym do we respect the 30 seconds we're supposed to wait before we do the next set so much, but we don't do that in life, you know?
SPEAKER_02:That is such an incredible analogy. I never thought of it that way. And it's really helpful for somebody like me. I'm incredibly visual and I like things that are tangible. So that visual really helps. What would that look like in terms of cognition, the cognitive load? I think that the physical side, it is maybe easier for somebody to grasp, but what does it look like on the cognitive side? I know for me, I often have symptoms in in tandem. If I have physical symptoms, I often have cognitive symptoms too at the same time. And how does somebody start to recognize that? And do you see this as well where people are almost taking on too much on the on the cognitive side, even if they're not physically doing much? Do you see a lot of that as well?
SPEAKER_03:Oh my goodness, yes. And I think that that's like um a big thing, as you had said, like the dissociation from that for people too. They just don't understand how much cognitive load plays a role on their body. Um, and how we see the cognitive load too. So um there's the mental load of parenting, there's mental, and we kind of like just delete some of those things and don't put it as a cumulative effect, you know? So with cognitive load, like most of the symptoms that would come in if we want to do it that way, would be like, you know, memory lapses, or you're having a conversation and you forget really tangible words, or you're always using adjectives to describe the word you're looking for. Um, words just don't come like they used to for you. Or um, you know, you could be executive function could start to go a little bit. You just like, what was I doing again? Oh, you walk into the room, what was I here for? You know, some of those types of things. And then, you know, in planning, it's always like you go to do the task, and it's almost like, what task do I do first? It's almost like a paralysis of analysis of all the things that you have to get done. And um that to me starts like taxing the mental clarity aspect of things. And then brain fog. Like, I'm really curious how much brain fog has to do with like us just dissociating because we can't be in our brain, we can't be there versus something along the lines of you know, systemic inflammatory response from a gut condition or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:That's so interesting. So, on that note, too, when we look at you know the cognitive symptoms like that, when for you and what are the kind of first steps that you take or the questions that you're asking to try to figure that out? Are we really looking at uh, you know, a just an actual load somebody's balancing too much, or could there be another cause or contributing factor going on here?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. That's a really good question. And I think it has a lot to do with the individual sitting in front of me. So um, you know, if there's no space or time to go down a rabbit hole of like gut dysfunction or whatever could be, I certainly ask the questions. I am obsessed with informed consent. So I'm like, I see this. Is this the time to start to go down that? I see this, is this just the it like, and then like financial capacity, some of these functional medicine tests are pretty expensive too. And um time and labor intensive once we figure out what's going on. So it's not like, okay, check, check, we're good. You take the medicine and everything's fine. It's like, you know, some pretty big upheavals for your lifestyle and how you're rolling things out. And if somebody's just not ready to do that, that's not wrong. It's okay. We got to meet you for where you're at, but we got to pick the things that are tangible and that will make you feel better and what is possible in your daily experience too. So sometimes it looks like breath work, sometimes it looks like uh blood work, sometimes it looks like um, you know, like a little bit of a recheck of okay, where is there even time in your day that we could start to interject and take care of you? And it just all depends on where the person's at.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Yeah, it it it truly is sounds like incredibly individual and it has to be. It absolutely has to be. And I know for me and for those of you uh listening, I've been working with uh Koch. We'll get into that. I call you Koch there in a moment, but I've been working with you again, I think about six months maybe, but we worked together years ago, and I went to you, you know, with a lot of these things that we're talking about, and I was just like, what is what the heck is going on here? Because what really tipped me off is the summer for me. I barely work, I barely have anything on the go. And I felt worse than I'd felt in years. So for me, that was going, okay, maybe this isn't just load, maybe this isn't just you know, one side, maybe there's other things going on. And I will say, you know, you really helped me in figuring out some of the things going on, like the you know, the mold stuff going on. And with the protocol, I feel that what you've just said there, because I did when we started talking about that, and I realized everything that could be involved for me to actually address that, I had to ask myself, can I handle things feeling a little bit worse potentially for me day to day in taking on the load of managing this? Do I want to uproot this or do I want to take a more service-level approach to just kind of figure out ways to supplement? And you know, I am coming to see you tomorrow, so we'll talk more about how well that's going on. But it's very true. I think I think there maybe is this notion. I'd love your thoughts on this, that you know, somebody comes to you, let's say that they are somebody like me, they are used to being a relatively high performer and they're noticing these cognitive stuff, maybe there's some gut issues. They come to you, you find something, let's say, on an actual test. You know, of course, there's gonna be the nervous system that goes with it, but let's say that there's also something that goes on a test. Do people typically understand what it takes to heal? And if they don't, once they do, how often do you see people who are actually able to dedicate to it for whatever reason?
SPEAKER_03:That's so powerful in asking that question. And I think I think no, I don't think people, I think a lot of times, you know, we're almost like a green allopath. Like you come in and you have heartburn. Okay, well, here's a supplement for heartburn, you know. And um, but like my questions are like, well, where when did the heartburn start? Or like what's going on, or where did that come from? And you know, are we looking at an infection or are we looking at like a lifestyle thing that we have to change up? So I think again, there's individualization to care, but I think in how speedy today society is, people just want, just give me the safer option. And I don't even know if it's safer, you know, it's just an option. Um, so I do think there's a time and a place for supplementation, and I do think there's a time and a place for medication, um, especially at the speed in which we're all going. So, kind of for some people, how I see it is like a little tiny light in the corner and being like, hey, just so you know, like this is here. I'm here to help whenever you want to come to it, but this is going to be part of your case. And if it's not possible to do right now, you just let me know. And then if that's the case, then in the day to day stuff, like, could we even Just carve out, you know, two minutes to breathe here and there. And it sounds silly, but it's like life-changing if we really get to it. And do we carve out like, can we buy you a water bottle? Can we get you drinking water? That's gonna eradicate a ton of pain for a lot of people if you're so stiff and all that sort of stuff. So it could be the most simple thing that we interject with, um, but have massive impacts too.
SPEAKER_02:Tell me more about the water there, where you said that can have a massive impact. Are we seeing just in general, people are just not so dehydrated? Really dehydrated.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And today's still too, like, not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but like we have amazing filtration systems on most of our tap water, right? So we're taking out all of the we're taking out everything in the water. And if we think about how true hydration works, like the water has to be pulled into the cells for it to be functional and functional hydration. So, you know, we really have to think about remineralizing our water and getting the right stuff so our body's actually absorbing it. And um, you know, electrolytes are a good option, mineral trace elements are a great option. There's a few things out there, but I think we also have to think about, you know, water in general and then getting the right stuff into it. And and so even in the you know, Stanley phase, everyone has these massive jugs of water and three liters of water, no problem, but their pee is completely clear. And to me, that's kind of like, well, you're just peeing out water. So then did we filter everything through our body and we're still actually kind of a functional dehydration, even though you're complete consuming so much water in the day, you know? This is fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:I think that was happening for me when I started taking creatine, because I started taking creatine, which has really helped me. And then I noticed that I'm just peeing constantly. And it seems like I was peeing way more sometimes, even than I was taking in, or I was definitely peeing out most of what I thought I was taking in. And I remember you had actually mentioned to me something about my body trying to rebalance, I think, the minerals. Do I have this right? And so then I added in, I remember I added in electrolytes, and that helps significantly. Is that what that is? Totally. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:And your body does an amazing job of like keeping everything in check and keeping everything in balance. And there might be some like really random science about like alkalinity and stuff. And it's probably not something that I prioritize because like I'm just trying to get people to drink water, first of all. And then as those things come up, okay, well, I'm noticing this. Great. Well, we can do this. And cortisol has such an impact on um hydration status too. So if we're pumping out cortisol all the time, the kidneys filter things a little bit differently. We often notice like massive salt cravings for a lot of people. Um and so, yeah, we want to like make sure we're getting enough water in and then getting the right stuff in our water and then keeping us hydrated. And if we think about like fascia and tissue being hydrated, then there's a huge potential for less pain with that too, or mu or less tension with that too.
SPEAKER_02:Fascinating. That makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. And it it is interesting. I know for me, I uh I was having physical pain alongside everything else, but the physical pain was quite strong too. And when I when I did start to understand that, as soon as you told me that that day, a light bulb went off. And when I started focusing more on my hydration, my pain I did, I noticed a significant difference in my pain. I also noticed uh my skin looked a lot better. I was like, what is happening here? I'm like, am I like everyone's paying money for all these fillers and stuff?
SPEAKER_03:I'm like, just stay hydrated again.
SPEAKER_02:I felt, you know, I felt a few years younger once I was properly hydrated. And now for me, of course, you know, with the ADHD, I do still forget to drink the water sometimes. But when I do, and especially adding in like electrolytes, I've yeah, I've noticed a significant difference. You mentioned there's something really interesting about salt cravings and cortisol, which seems like it's an effect of what we're talking about here. I want to pivot a little bit. I want to talk what's happening if somebody's craving sugar a lot.
SPEAKER_03:So, yeah, kind of the same notion. I guess the way I explain it, and forgive me to anyone who's a scientist listening out there, I think um, when I explain things, I try to make them really tangible for people instead of going into the weeds of the actual science. So um, what I think about is evolutionarily speaking, like I think we're always craving the most um nutrient-dense food. So, like the fattiest, calorically dense option on the table. The problem now is we have so many options on the table. There's like fast food at every corner, there's junk food everywhere we look. So, you know, innately and adaptively, we're seeking those foods out. And then if we're in a nervous system response, like what is your body essentially trying to do? It's running away from that bear, right? And what do you need when you're running away from a bear? Energy. And what's going to give you the most energy? Like these types of quick sugar hits. And then, you know, to add on the dopamine effect there too, like we're also seeking that pleasure pretty consistently too, because we're, you know, drowning out our dopamine stores with socials and the amount of work that we're doing and all that sort of stuff. So it's such like a tri-fectal, maybe even more than try, it's such like a multitudinal thing that's happening here. Um, but when your body is craving sugar so often, I mean, we could even get into yeast and we can get into systemic overgrowths of different bacteria and things like that. But um until I go down the road with a person until until I ask or test for some of those things, usually I go to cortisol first and be like, what's what's happening?
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. And so what could be happening there with cortisol if it is cortisol?
SPEAKER_03:I guess the way I explain cortisol is like, imagine you're stuck in traffic and late for something. The first two to three seconds, it's gonna be adrenaline. You're gonna be like, ah, gotta get there. Um, and then cortisol comes up and kind of takes like a snapshot of the moment. It's a really good photographer. And then it's kind of like, you know what, we're gonna get there when we get there. So cortisol has been demonized for so long and it's such a bad thing, and manage your cortisol and regulate your nervous system and all that sort of stuff. But it's what keeps us alive, it's what keeps us managed, it keeps, you know, blood sugar in check, all that sort of stuff. So the problem is like a consistent cortisol response all day, every day, that's not being supported by any of the recovery tactics. So um being stuck in a fight or flight response all the time is what's problematic. Not necessarily having cortisol or being in a cortisol state. That's what we're in right now. We want to be engaged, we want all of these things. Um, but when it's going on too long, eventually cortisol kind of starts to damper and the raw material to make it kind of gets used up a little bit. And I'm not saying your kidneys and adrenal glands stop doing what they're supposed to do, but I'm saying it's just taxed. And so in the taxed portion, what do we have to live off of then? We're adrenaline. So every stress response, which are so many these days, are met with an adrenaline response. So that's like quick to frustration, teary, anxious, you know, all that feeling of adrenaline is coursing through our bodies all the time. And oftentimes, like we stay in that state all day and then we crash. And then we stay in that state all day and then we crash.
SPEAKER_02:We might have a sugar craving.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, throughout the day, and just to try to like keep it going and keep us going. Um, so that's what I'd presume is going on a lot of the time. Wow.
SPEAKER_02:That's fascinating. I resonate with that a lot. I mean, there's often stretches in my life and in my business where I do, I have to perform, sometimes almost back to back. I mean, I think what really did me in before the summer, and where I was like, okay, I think obviously we have some nervous system stuff going on, but also some probably some some other stuff as well, was I hosted a retreat in Spain, a business retreat. And I don't do well in time changes. And then I flew back here, and then three days later I'm going to Calgary, so across the country the other way to speak at a huge conference, Canada's biggest marketing conference. And when I got home from those two trips, it was like, Who who am I? What is this? I feel like shit, you know? And it really, you know, I said, okay, well, I'm gonna take my slow summer and see how things go. And when things didn't improve, I remember coming to you and we did have that conversation around maybe I've burned out my cortisol response, like maybe that's not, you know, working working well anymore. Um, so you know, that's a pretty extreme example. I don't think I don't think most people are flying across the ocean to host this thing for a few days and then flying the other way to speak at a big conference. I mean, it does happen for some people, I'm sure. What are some of your favorite recovery tools? Because in hindsight, well, first of all, I wasn't sleeping well. I know that that's probably a pretty key foundation. Yeah. Wasn't sleeping well. And in hindsight, let's say that I was sleeping well, and then I could add on some other recovery tools. What are your favorite go-to recovery tools for somebody like me or somebody who is in situations like that where maybe they do have a high stakes commitment and then maybe they also have something going on like in parenthood as well?
SPEAKER_03:Breath work is a massive one. I think how we see what we're doing is a huge part of it too. Um, if everything is perceived to be the end of the world and a stage five alarm bell criteria. Um, I think there's some really great supplements that are really helpful too. I think um sleep is obviously a huge and massive one. Yeah, so there's there's so many things that we can do, and I think it's really about um how to incorporate this into what what people believe is possible. I think intention behind everything that we do is is really important, and what people are willing to do is really important. Um, but if we think about like performance-based stuff, breath work, um What kind of breath work do you like? Because there's so many different things. I love CO2 tolerance breath work. And this is um most of the stuff that I've learned is through Brian McKenzie. And so the premise behind it is like with deep sea divers, when they're at like the depths of the ocean for extended periods of time, we're looking at their nervous system on um like scans. And uh with the scans, like they're completely calm. So it's like the most unhuman thing to do and they're managing. And then we're like, okay, well, what's happening there? And it's like they've trained their nervous system, they've built autonomy into something that's automatic, which is amazing, right? So um the whole premise behind their training is like extended breath holds, long, long breath holds. So when we think about breathing, we're assuming we're trying to get oxygen in, but actually the mechanism is built on getting CO2 out. So what happens is like CO2 builds up in our body, we get these like little receptors in our body that send a message to our brain, and it's like, get rid of this and get more oxygen in. So when we train our nervous system and our body to withstand with more CO2 in the system and be okay with it, it's like training our nervous system to endure and to be stronger and to be more resilient. So that's the premise behind it. That's so fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:Is that similar to Wim Hof style? I used to do this, uh it was like a breathing bubble, and you'd have to breathe and then you'd have to hold your breath for as long as you could. Is it similar to that or is this something else?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I guess what I know of Wim Hof is like a lot of excitatory based, a lot of like stimulation. And I guess his premise is to like jack up the nervous system in response to be able to endure and and withstand more. And I mean, we'd have to change physiology textbooks based on the the what he's getting after. So it's fascinating. But I just think again, bringing it back to the individual of what they're capable of and where can we push the line without them feeling really uncomfortable with it, too. Um, so some of the Wim Hof stuff in in cold exposure and breathing like that, like people were passing out and and those types of things. So I think finding a breath work that you'll do is awesome. And then I think finding a breath work that does something to you is awesome. And then I think um, when we look at the science, some of the easiest things that we can do in the moment would be like a quick Yoga Nidra session, quick two minutes of like alternate nostril breathing. That's showing up in the science to be really, really effective. The physiological sci that Huberman talks about so much, that's a big one. Um for those who don't know what that is, what can you explain it? And like, yeah, I'll do it for you. So it's so big inhale, take a little bit more, and then exhale as long as you can there. That's nice. Yeah, a couple of those. Every now and then you get an intense phone call. You have um the kids are going wild, and you're just like, need a moment um before being reactive. If we interject with like these little spaces of self-care and a little bit of um reflection for us and what we need in that moment, I mean that only took two seconds, right? But it's if we accumulate this over the day, I always call it like micro-dosing breath work or micro-dosing um meditation and all that sort of stuff. It doesn't have to look like the beautiful pillow and the right lighting and all that sort of stuff. It could just be like the intent behind it, the intention of what we're trying to get after and just slow the world down for a moment.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. I find sometimes I have to rely on strategies like that while I'm on uh a call. Let's say that I'm in a situation where maybe there's miscommunication or I'm kind of hashing something out with a client. I have to be really conscious around staying present. And that's one thing that I try to do is I try to come to my breath and I try to actually do something like that, but in a way that can't really be noticed.
SPEAKER_03:Totally. That's part of it too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because those kinds of conversations can be really tough. They're they're actually, I would say, in my experience as you know, a business mentor, conversations that people have to have with clients around topics that kind of uproot something at an unconscious level. So topics around boundaries or pricing or methods of communication, even you know, telling a client like, hey, I actually don't give out my personal phone number. You know, a lot of times conversations like that can be quite difficult. Do you think that these kinds of tools can even just help with those very specific tactical you know, things that entrepreneurs are walking into on an almost day-to-day basis? Yes, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_03:And I I think how I see it is just like a an awareness break. You know what I mean? And it it helps unravel the subconscious a little bit in terms of okay, well, like why is this uncomfortable for me? What is happening here? And getting a hold of um our emotions, like emotions are just so fleeting, but we base a lot of our life around them, you know? So even if we could recognize what's going on in that moment, okay, what is the actual truth of this moment? And then kind of moving forward with that. Um, I guess I see a lot of those microdosing of breath works as stop gaps in space, just bringing a little bit of awareness to the situation, a little bit of intention before like how you want to move forward with it, and a little bit of introspection on ourselves of like, why is this so irritating? Why is this so uncomfortable? Like then we can start to unravel some of the narratives that we have too.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. I wanted to go back to you, had mentioned, you know, the recovery portion. We talked about things like sleep and the breath work. You had mentioned supplements. Are there, and obviously this is so individualized, but what kinds of supplements are you just a fan of right now, like as a broad generalization, knowing that this is not, please, nobody listening, this is not medical advice.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I'll say the disclaimer this is not medical advice. Please talk to your medical practitioner before you do any of this. I know you guys are sick of hearing that, but uh people do want these answers, right? So if we're gonna think about, you know, some really tangible things that we can do for mental cognitive support, fish oils, they're really great.
SPEAKER_02:It's been a such a game changer for me. I almost called your office because I'm gonna be there tomorrow. I almost called your office being like, Do you have the high EPA fish oil in stock right now? Make sure it's there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I can't even begin to tell you. Yeah, I could I could go on about that. It's just mind-blowing to me. It actually changed the game for me.
SPEAKER_03:It is so awesome. And um, you know, well studied, good research behind it, all that sort of stuff. So I love fish oils. I love magnesium. I think you know, everyone's lacking it today's society with like monocropping and stuff, or just lacking a lot of micronutrients. And um, magnesium is certainly one of them. It helps with sleep, it helps with like the nervous system response, all that sort of stuff. So if you're not on um magnesium, I talk to your doctor, I highly suggest that one. And the right type is key. So magnesium bisglycinate or etherinate are both ones that are, you know, well absorbed and your body can do something with them. If we're talking constipation, that's a different magnesium that we would take. But taking the right ones and reprotable brands is a really big thing too. So, you know, with um Amazon, we're kind of it's the cheaper option, but like I don't know how long that's sat in a storage facility. I don't know if what the label says is actually in that product, you know?
SPEAKER_02:So, what would you be looking for? You're talking to somebody who really cares about the quality because I have noticed that I have noticed that brand to brand that I'll take something from one brand and I'm not really noticing anything, and I take something from another brand, and then I'm like, wow, oh, okay. I actually used to be such a supplement skeptic across the board, like totally across the board, and probably because I was just not looking for. So, what should somebody be looking for if they're evaluating a supplement? What kinds of things can they look for?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:NPN number in Canada is a big part of things.
SPEAKER_03:I think what we're looking for is um professional brands and third-party tested brands would be even better. NPN number is like a certification that we have here in Canada. I think any brand that claims that they're third-party tested and we have some sort of acknowledgement on the bottle of that is really helpful. And then I think talking to your practitioner, not just because I am a practitioner, but like we go through years of education on therapeutic dosing. And what amount is actually going to make a difference in somebody's body? And what amount is actually specific for what your complaint is. So so many people talk about You helped me with that with creatine. Yeah, and a lot. Yeah, what is actually functional dosing for you and based on what you're what you're coming in with, I think is extremely important. Um, so all of those things together is what I talk about to patients with products for like in full informed consent. I do understand you could get this cheaper somewhere. And I do hate that supplements are so expensive and kind of a luxury item in a lot of people's cart today. But if we really want to get what we need out of it, what I always tell patients to do is like give me a hierarchy. Like, if we're really gonna if I had one supplement that I'm allowed to give you and you had could afford it without like breaking the bank and stressing you out, ask me those questions because I'll say this, you know, and I'm not gonna give you 50 different things that you have to go 80 different places to try to pick up and figure out. Um so I think really having those honest conversations with your practitioner is so important too.
SPEAKER_02:That makes a lot of sense. Okay, I have to ask you about protein. I was at the grocery store the other day and I saw this new bread. And I think it was by dumpsters or it's one of those big brands, right? And it's protein bread. You know, the protein's in everything. I know for me, I I'm not gonna lie, like I buy the 18 gram natural protein milk because it's it just does, it helps me get more protein. And this is like such a big conversation right now. How in your mind, what's your opinion on this conversation? And how much protein does somebody actually need? What is optimal? You know, let's say that somebody is, let's let's assume that somebody is maybe not feeling optimal already. What should they be aiming for? And what should those sources of protein actually look like, in your opinion?
SPEAKER_03:So for protein, I mean standard recommendations is your body weight in grams of protein. How realistic is that for a lot of people?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Not totally realistic. So I always say more is better in terms of how close are we getting? Um, where are you s where is your starting place at? What is your understanding of protein? Um protein bread, I'm assuming doesn't taste awesome. So I don't know, maybe they're making it. Really tastes good. But there's so many products out there now that I'm like, did that need protein in it? Like, yes, cumulative amounts throughout the day is super helpful. Um, getting more protein gives your body what it needs to make neurotransmitters and muscle tissue and literally every function in the body. So it is really important, but I think we have to be somewhat intentional about like what we're trying to do here. So, I mean, best case scenario, I've seen it go the other way too, where like people are just consuming protein shakes to hit the protein targets, but like nothing else in a day. So, like, where is this fine balance where you're, you know, mindful of what you're putting in your body, you're trying to get the right things, you're um trying to get some good protein in, but you're not like forgoing everything else to do it, and forgoing like all taste and community um aspects of food and like there's so much to go into food uh for nervous system regulation in terms of you know slowing down and breathing and um before we eat. And so, like, if you're just pumping protein shakes and running from one place to the next and and thinking we got it covered, I think that that's problematic in itself too.
SPEAKER_02:Does protein source matter when it comes to how your body uses it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think um best case scenario, it's like a food-based protein source. But like I know a lot of people aren't cruising around with like chicken breasts in their pockets. So such a funny visual. Yeah. And so it's um with this lifestyle that we're all trying to lead and the speed at which we're doing it, I think we just have to be finding out what works for people. When we think about um, you know, plant-based versus uh meat-based protein. In the literature, we see that there's more bioavailability with meat-based. But if you're vegetarian, I'm not gonna tell you you gotta go, you know, get the meat-based protein. And um, if whey is really bothersome to somebody's stomach, I'm I don't force feed yourself a whey protein shake just to get it in, right? There's so much more damage that we're causing through that. So um, you know, it depends, I guess is the main answer. But there's just so many options. So we can find a system that works for you. We just have to ask the right questions and not like force feed ourselves or force us to do something um that you know our body's not totally comfortable with, too. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:That makes sense. Uh, I want to chat just very quickly here before we start to wrap up. Whenever I tell somebody about you, I often say Dr. Nicole McCall. And they have sometimes they're like, who? Who? And then I say Cox. Your handle on Instagram is sports.cox. Yeah. And whenever I refer to you as Cox, people are like, oh my goodness, yes, Cox, oh my goodness, she's amazing. So why, where did that name come from? And what do you prefer to be called?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, so when I was born, my brother couldn't say my name, he couldn't say Nicole, so he called me Coco. Um, and that was just like a family thing forever. And then it kind of got up became like a school thing. And then it, I just was Coco for the longest time. And then I got a little bit older and then kind of evolved into Cox. And um, everyone who knows me on any sort of level just calls me Cox. And then with all like the sports part of things, like it's always nicknames going around and stuff. And then when you graduate, um, like any sort of program or degree, or if you get like a doctorate or anything like that, I mean, those are on the back of the wall forever, you know? And you can get them redone and put your name, but I was just like, my last name is McClellan. And so I just went with a marketing ploy of Dr. Cox because it's catchy, it's ringable, and most people know me as Kox anyway. So that's kind of how it evolved on like the marketing side of things. And yeah, when I hear like Nicole McClellan, I kind of feel like I'm in trouble or like I did something. So Dr. Kox is just like, and a way to, I guess my intention behind it too is to like not create space between us. Like we're a team when we come to sit down and do um, you know, whatever it is we're trying to get after. And I just really want people to feel comfortable that it is teamwork and you know, what you bring to the table helps me bring stuff to the table and it's it's back and forth a lot too.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Yeah, and it's funny that you say that because that's where that question originates from me. And every time I see you, I still get hung up in my head over it because I'll be like, Oh, I want to be respectful. I'm like, I want to be respectful. So, you know, like doctor. So, no, that's that's really cool. I for the record, I don't think I could ever call you Coco. Like that just doesn't feel like it's a little bit far. Yeah, I'm glad that evolved. Yes, totally because I feel like it's very, very fitting. So amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I have a feeling it's just gonna be super enlightening and it is such a great mix between exploratory and tangible as well. I want to just ask you one more question or wrap things up, and then we'll get into where people can find you. For anybody listening who is, let's say that they are kind of in a similar life scenario as I am, you know, maybe they're a business owner, their mom, mid-30s, 40s, you know, maybe starting to get into perimetables. What's one thing that you want them to leave this conversation with? What's one thing that you want them to either start thinking about or one first step that you want them to bring their attention to at least or some awareness to?
SPEAKER_03:That's a really powerful question. There's so many ways we could take this, but I think um I think to re-highlight that you know your body best and anyone who kind of tries to like steer you, whether it be social media, whether it be, you know, um your medical practitioner, whomever it is, there's like this innate knowing and intuition that you have that is so powerful. Um, and sometimes it doesn't always lead you to where you're going because there's just too many inputs to it. But if we just create a little bit of space and a little bit of listening to what your body's actually trying to tell you, you might get these like little whispers of slow down or you should take care of yourself or you should drink some water, or you should start, you know, taking time for lunch or something like that. So just these little intuitive things. If we started listening, I think that that is the basis for everything. And then it also helps your practitioner because we know where you're trying to go, you know. So some people will come in and be like, I want to run a marathon. That looks very different program-wise than I just want to be less uh short-tempered with my kids. You know, the two I could be coming from the same aspect in terms of nervous system regulation. I may be talking about the same types of things, but the way that we present it is just so different, right? But if you know what you're getting after, and if you know what you're trying to do and you know what performance means to you, then we have like a really great starting place.
SPEAKER_02:That's so powerful. And like you said, there too, part of that listening. That's kind of what led me to you is I I was going to my, you know, mainstream medical practitioner for years saying, Hey, something's wrong, something's wrong. And it's like lab works normal, lab works normal. And I'm like, there's no way this is normal. I got to a point where I started to become quite depressed again because the thought of accepting that as my normal, I was like, okay, maybe this is just it. I think I told you I actually started thinking about how if I need to retire in five years, how can I make that happen? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's a wild thought.
SPEAKER_02:And then through listening and that quietness and awareness, I just, yeah, my inner voice just said, fuck that. Like, fuck that. And I think I booked with you like the next day. Yeah. I was like, I'm not accepting that because I know that's not true. And I only knew that through listening to myself. So yeah, I think that's really, really powerful. Okay. So somebody wants to work with you, and we're gonna have people listening to this, not just from you know, our province. We'll have people listening to this from all over the world. Uh who can work with you and in what ways? And then where does somebody find you if they do want to work with you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so for naturopathic medicine, we're kind of bound by regulatory laws. And so for Nova Scotia, um, it's a generalized, like four foot in the room kind of deal. So if you can get to my office, then I can work with you essentially. Um, we can do telehealth, so it doesn't always have to be within the office, but um, for general purposes, like you have to be essentially in Nova Scotia, okay, to work with me. Um, if you're looking for a practitioner who practishes similar to I do that I do, um, certainly reach out. Like I have a pretty big network around the world that of people that do similar things to what I do. Um, and there's also an option for me to uh consult on your case too. So if you're seeing somebody and you want um not a second opinion, but like an additional support, we can uh look at consultant role as well if you feel like that would be really beneficial for you. And um if your medical provider is on board with doing that too, is is possible. And then um my social media is at sports.cox. And I try to share so much information there. Hopefully it's like thought provocative and then stuff you can go back to your practitioner with too and be like, what do you think about this? And if your practitioner has any questions, tell them to reach out to me. Yeah, hopefully just building like a web of more information and more opportunity.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Yeah, and we'll make sure that we have all the links below the episode too for anybody listening to this. If you want to be able to find Dr. Koch's, well, thank you so much for coming in. This was just such an enlightening conversation. You're just such a wealth of knowledge, and I can't even say how much. I mean, I've sent you, I don't know how many voice notes now, just being so, so grateful for your help and your approach and your validation. I think that's one thing that really set you apart is I felt so listened to and so validated and not. I mean, I could, you know, the words that I want to say here, that how my my you know, other people made me feel, but you've just made me feel so validated. And for the first time in in years, I feel like I do actually really understand some of the puzzle pieces and I have some really exciting updates for you tomorrow when I see you as well. So amazing.
SPEAKER_03:I'm so excited to hear that. And thank you so much for having me. Cause I think, yeah, like if I could spread that world word of intuition and and women listening to their bodies and just reaffirm that, like, you know the answer, you know. Um, whether that be seeking out additional help or whatever that looks like. And, you know, my life goal is for people to have a space to be heard. So hopefully we're capitalizing on that on most opportunities. So important. Amazing. Well, thanks again. Thank you.