The Production Desk

There’s No Crying in Animation Production with Kristine Magat Douglas, LCSW, MPH

• Alexis & Natalie • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Alexis and Natalie welcome therapist Kristine Magat Douglas, LCSW, MPH, to unpack our collective animation production baggage. We dive into burnout, unemployment shame, crying on the job, global stress, work anxiety and more! It’s fun, we swear! Plus: surprising life lessons from Kpop Demon Hunters. 

NOTE: The content of this episode is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice. 

More information about Kristine Magat Douglas at:

https://kristineyourtherapist.com/

Speaker 2

I'm Alexis Jacobson. I'm Natalie DeJohn. Welcome to the Production Desk, a podcast about the people and process of animation production.

Speaker 3

Hello. Hi, Alexis. I'm not redoing it. That's the intro.

Speaker 1

How's your week going? What's going on? My family is coming into town. So I've been going through my office, and admittedly, it's become a dumping ground over the past half of the year. So it's been finding homes for lots of random things, trying to be good about clearing stuff out and recycling or donating to Goodwill and all of that stuff. So it's been good. It's been productive and relaxing as well. But how about you? What's going on?

Speaker 3

My family is coming into town too. So I've been actively avoiding cleaning. You may have noticed I've been doing a lot more work on the podcast, and that is an avoidance tactic, but I really need to clean. That's my focus. Cleaning's the worst. It's so stupid because everything gets dirty again.

Speaker 1

Oh my god, I know. It's so weird to me where, and I know having pets is a part of it. They're so messy and they don't want you to have nice things. Like, I just vacuumed. Why is there cat litter or hair everywhere?

Speaker 3

See, I want to blame my dog, but I think most of the mess is me. I think most of the hair is me. I think I know. The mess is me. Me too. But I wish us both luck as we prepare for the visits.

Speaker 1

Well, what's funny is while they're here, my podcast record closet will probably be under attack with my mom's clothes. And so I'm not really sure how that'll work, but we'll figure it out. If anything, hopefully more clothes will just help dampen any additional echo or sound. So it'll just be even that much more compact in this closet while they're in town.

Speaker 3

I was gonna say it's just gonna make everything sound better. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1

But yeah, I just want you to know you're not alone with the cleaning. Our past interviewee, Brett, always says that he and his husband they like to host parties when they feel like their house needs a good deep clean because it's just really good impetus for that. And then you get to live with the wonderful results. So if anything, it will be a lovely treat for you over the next few weeks.

Speaker 3

Whenever that happens, someone comes to visit and I clean, I'm like, wow, I should live like this every day. Oh boy. Oh boy. Should we get into this episode? Do you want to talk about it a little bit? It's different than what we've been doing. I love it.

Speaker 1

I love that we're diving into all these different areas of life working in production. And I think it was such a smart idea to do an episode about mental health and to interview a therapist. I know we talk a lot about this, so I don't want anything to be too repetitive, but mental health is something that I think is so important. Having been in therapy myself, on and off over the years, I'd want to be an advocate for being a positive force when it comes to that subject. I'm sad to say I think there is still a negative stigma around it. So anything that I can do to help with that, I am so in for.

Speaker 3

That's why I'm so glad you were down for this. It was one of the first ideas I had when we started putting together episode ideas. I was like, we need to talk to a therapist because we're all messed up. We're all messed up and so burnt out. I just thought it would be a really fun idea. So I'm glad you were game and I'm glad that Christine was also interested in doing this podcast episode. I'll get into her bio in a second. And I also don't want to rehash everything because we do talk about so many good topics, like burnout at work, burnout from dealing with global insanity and like how do we keep going to work when there's so many terrible things going on around us. I basically made a very long list that was like, I gotta talk to her about all these things, which she very graciously did talk about. And I have to say, after that interview, I realized, oh, I am burnt out. I hadn't realized that, partly because it's not work related. And I think that felt surprising to me because I tend to think about burnout as something that just has to do with your job. I've said this before. I'm on a project that has leadership that values work-life balance. So I'm so happy to say it's not causing me unnecessary stress, which is amazing. But I have had some other stuff in my life that has just really burned me out. Yeah, after this conversation, I ended up calling up my old therapist because I hadn't been seeing her for a while. And I'm going back. I went back to her and I'm so glad because at the first session I was like, oh yeah, I needed this. And she was like, Yeah, you did. So I'm glad that I did. I'm so glad that this episode helped with that. Me too. Me too. It's changing lives, even if it's just mine. My therapist that I'm currently seeing, I've seen her off and on for since 2020, since the pan, like early days of pandemic. I really like her and I've recommended her to a lot of people and a lot of animation people. So at this point, I've sent her like three or four animation production people. And then I think two of those people have recommended two other people. So she's like becoming the animation lady. But I'll often say, you know, at this point, she really knows the pipeline. So she knows a lot of the lingo you're gonna use and the way departments are set up. And honestly, she probably has the best gossip now that I think about it in the industry.

Speaker 1

Oh my gosh, she hears it all.

Speaker 3

That must be so fun.

Speaker 1

I know we've talked about our pets having the best stories and our partners or friends, so our therapists are added onto the head.

Speaker 3

What do you think they say about production people collectively? Oh. If our various therapists of other production people got together, I feel like they'd say things like, ugh, these high-functioning perfectionists, they need to take a nap. Masochistic? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, why do they do that to themselves? Why do they put themselves?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'd be so curious. They'd be very clinical and very lovely. And then you'd be like, oh, that's sweet. Because I'd be probably a little bit more blunt myself. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I'm very excited to introduce our guest, Christine McGott-Douglas, resident psychotherapist on the podcast, I've decided. She is a licensed clinical social worker with a master's in public health. She has many years of experience in psychotherapy and in social work. She has a lot of interesting stories, a really fascinating career. And she helps her clients with a lot of things such as anxiety, depression, stress, burnout, which we get into, cultural and systemic oppression is really important to her. And I'll let her speak to her career background and how she got into it, but I don't want to spoil too much of it. Also, maybe most importantly, she is my friend. And it's not a bad thing to have a therapist for a friend. I suggest everyone go out and be friend of therapists. I hope to have her back on the podcast.

Speaker 1

Nat, that was such a great intro, by the way. I know you guys have such a great friendship. She was such a pleasure to meet, and I think this is such a fun, unique episode for us to do.

Speaker 3

So we should dive in. And I hope listeners enjoy us trying to get free therapy on behalf of all of us, on behalf of all of production.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Christine, for being the therapist to production collectively as a whole.

Speaker 3

Yes, we appreciate it.

Speaker

Yay! Hi, Christine. Hi, Natalie. Nice to meet you, Alexis. So good to meet you.

Speaker 3

Welcome. Thank you. I am so excited for this interview. Christine is a very dear friend of mine. And when we started this podcast, I thought of you right away because I'm like, we need to have a therapist on the show. Production staff. We're so burnt out. So glad you are doing this.

Speaker

Thank you. I'm so glad to be on. I completely understand burnout. I was in the healthcare field for over 20 years. And even when you love your job, sometimes, you know, you gotta take time for yourself. So I I feel you on the burnout.

Speaker 3

Ugh, appreciate it. And that kind of leads into my first question, which is talking about your background. And I know the answer to a lot of these, but for our listeners, I'd love for them to get to know you a little bit, if you don't mind telling us about your path to becoming a therapist and maybe a little bit about your background in social work.

Speaker

My path to becoming a therapist has been roundabout. Fun fact I'm a Filipino American, and growing up, we didn't talk about feelings, you just push through. And let's not talk about uncomfortable things. So I always wanted to be a therapist, and I went to social work school and I did all that, but I was too scared to do what I really want. So I did the safer thing of working in a hospital, which is very also stressful as a medical social worker. I've seen burnout and what it can do to the body, and then started experiencing it for myself and decided we need to live our lives authentically. And what I really wanted to do is help people in their mental health journey. So I started a private practice a few years ago and see a lot of people who go through perfectionism, people pleasing, and then eventually leading to burnout. So I'm happy to talk about it with you all.

Speaker 3

I also love that you said the safe way to go for your career was to work at a hospital. Because I'm like, that sounds so stressful.

Speaker 4

And it was.

Speaker

But it was the path that we knew, right? This is how you make money, this is what feels safe. But underneath, you always know what you are meant for. And so when you don't listen to that, there is something that is calling inside of you.

Speaker 3

I love this already. Well, just that idea of going the safe path. I'm going off topic a little already, but we talk a lot about how production staff feel like they have another calling, or they got into this to be closer to filmmaking and TV making, but want to be doing their own creative things. And I think sometimes staying in production can feel like the safe way. So why quit? Thanks, Christine. Thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker 1

You're welcome. That's actually why I've been in therapy myself. I know it's changed because of insurance and everything, which is probably another podcast episode. Being at a job that allows me to have insurance covers that because otherwise I couldn't afford it out of pocket. I came back from living overseas. I wasn't quite professionally where I wanted to be, and I wanted to move more like to the front end and more development and more creative and wanting to be a writer and taking a writing class and going into a career where it's so competitive and it's so hard about who makes it versus who doesn't. And the practical friend who then asks you, what if you try to make it as an actor and you turn 35 or 40 and you haven't made it, you're still waiting tables, what are you doing? And like the answer to that is so hard and it's this constant push-pull. Anyway, I don't mean to derail, but I can relate so hard. You have your day job that pays the bills, but then you do have what feeds your creative soul. At the moment, I do feel so fulfilled because of this woman right here. As I'm pointing to anyway, that's like I feel like there's gonna be tears on this episode.

Speaker

I love that. Yeah, when your heart is happy, you feel it in your bones, right? And a lot of times the safe path, yes, that puts food on the table, like we'll just, you know, do it slowly. But when you take the risk, when you actually do what you love, you can really feel it. Yeah, agreed.

Speaker 3

I don't think we need to apologize for derailing because I had a feeling I kept thinking in my head, I could see myself sneaking in like, so hypothetically, say you're a lady at this age, and you're working at this job and you're doing this thing, but you're struggling with X. What should that be personally? Basically, Christine fixes us. Fix collectively production staff. We invited you on to heal us all.

Speaker

So that is so funny. Coming from you, Natalie, because you're the one who always gives me the best advice, and you're like, you take care of yourself. I'm like, no, you take care of yourself.

Speaker 3

I always leave our hangouts when we get dinner or something with my heart full. So Aw, same. Yeah, this is like just a regular talk with Natalie. Okay, I'm gonna do my best to keep us going forward because we could talk forever, but I wanna touch on Christine. We were texting about this a while back and I don't remember why. As somebody who's been in and out of therapy forever, I forget that not everybody has gone or made an effort to do something very specific to take care of their mental health. And it surprises me. I think what I'm getting at is every once in a while I'll meet someone who's like, Oh yeah, I've never been to therapy. I'm thinking about it. And I'm like, wow, you've never been, especially as someone who lives in LA, because I think people in my circle anyway are pretty forthcoming about like, oh, I got my therapy appointment. I'll see you after. So it surprises me when people still haven't gone but are interested. And so I think we said maybe we'll touch on that quickly. For someone who's never gone to therapy but wants to start, where do they begin? Because it can be overwhelming at first.

Speaker

Oh, yeah, it's totally overwhelming. And the first part is knowing that you want to go. And it sounds so daunting. Like, let me find a therapist who's gonna fix my life. That's not really what you're doing. You're having a conversation with yourself, basically, and the therapist is there to guide you towards what goals you have for yourself, or just being a blank slate. So if you want to find a therapist, psychology today, that's one of the directories, or talk to your insurance if you want to go through your insurance. They have a list of providers there. Fun fact: I used to work in case management for mental health connecting people, and the secret word is you tell them, I want you to find me three therapists, and they will give that to you versus trying to figure this out by yourself. Also, I work with a lot of EAPs, so maybe your company will give you like six to eight sessions, and you can see where that goes. So, and know that you're not stuck with whoever you have. I am always like, you know, if you like how we feel together, then move forward. But if not, you have the right to go to somebody that will be helpful for you.

Speaker 3

I love that. And I want to touch on two things because I'm trying to be good about lingo, usually for animation, but in this instance, mental health, EAP stands for employee assistance programs, I believe. Yep. And a lot of companies have them, have some version of that. I've had actually a pretty good experience, the therapist I go to. I've connected randomly through a previous EAP program, and I loved her so much that I stuck with her. So you can find people that way. And I will also echo what you said about if you have a couple sessions with a therapist and you're not vibing, you can leave. It's like dating, right? Like you kind of know, like, this isn't working, which is stressful, but it's like, you know, you don't have to stick it out, is my two cents.

Speaker

Yeah, because if you don't feel safe with your therapist, then you're not gonna disclose anything helpful. You're just gonna be people pleasing your therapist, and that's not what they get paid for. Figure out what's helpful to you. And if it takes a few times, know that nothing's forever.

Speaker 3

What's something you think people still misunderstand about mental health?

Speaker

I think that people don't understand that it's kind of a practice that you do have to have top of mind, or else it can get away from you really fast. A lot of times by the time they see me, they're completely burned out. And it's really just because they've been pushing away those feelings for a while. So you you kind of have to put some effort into it. Everybody has to put work into their own life.

Speaker 3

Oh, I don't want to put work into it. It's good work. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, it's good. It's good. And this is again my own two cents. Whenever I start to feel like, oh, I'm starting to feel a little bit like I'm not in a good place, whether I am feeling depressed or super anxious, I will make myself start either looking for a therapist if I didn't already have one or go back to mine because I know when you wait till you're like not functioning, it's so fucking hard to take a shower, let alone pick up the phone to schedule an appointment with that therapist you were recommended.

Speaker

It's a muscle. You know, you lift weights a little at a time, and then one day you realize you're super strong. And then if you stop, it's the same thing. Things just get a lot harder. So it's like having a guide to help you pay attention to your own cues. Like, ooh, I'm starting to notice I'm getting more irritable, or I'm skipping meals, or I'm stress-eating. Like, what's that all about? And once you admit that to yourself, it's freeing.

Speaker 1

The stigma around mental health and going to therapy is still so not where I thought it would be. Like, I was always made to feel that me crying at work was a sign of weakness and that showing emotions is bad, and someone reframed it. She was like, Oh, well, crying is actually your superpower. And I had never thought to think of emotions in that way before, which really resonated. I think the thing that's also so hard with production people and with sometimes prioritizing mental health, it was so hard to find a therapist who is available on a weekend because my schedule changes so much during the week that even if like I try to protect this certain hour of the day, I'd be stressed about a what message is I'm missing, or it's just gonna mean I have to work that much later during the work week. So I know that's something that I think is also really tricky with film people.

Speaker

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of us, right? You just need that one for you. But yeah, Natalie and I say, There's nothing wrong with crying.

Speaker 3

I think the phrase is actually, we love crying. Me too. Yeah, I've always like, Christine, I found this new song I'm adding to my crying playlist for when I first crying.

Speaker

Crying is amazing because it gives you kind of a reset. You're like, ugh, got it out. Now what's next?

Speaker 3

Bring it on. Yeah, it's like a release. Once I realize maybe you gotta cry at work, that happens, or wherever I am. Once you get through the like, okay, this is a little embarrassing, all the tears come out of your face, the tears and the snot, and then you're like, It's cleansing.

Speaker

Feelings are good for you. That's why we're here. We're not robots. Should we title this episode We Love Crying?

Speaker 3

We love a song, yeah. We can make it one. A big thing going on in our industry constantly is layoffs and unemployment. I mean, like we could try and go into all the reasons why it's happening, but essentially, it's not uncommon for big layoffs to happen at studios or you wrap your project and there's nothing to roll on to. So you leave. And I'll speak for myself personally, that happened to me last year. I wrapped a project, and it took me much longer to find a job than it had in the past. And on top of feeling scary financially, there can be a lot of shame in that. So I guess my question is is it normal to feel shame, even when layoffs and unemployment is pretty systemic right now?

Speaker

Oh yeah. Yeah. No matter what, you are gonna have feelings that don't normally show up, right? Because when you're employed and have a job, you don't have to think about this. So when you are laid off through no fault of your own, it's just normal for you to be like, what did I do wrong? Even though your mind knows that intellectually you know you did nothing wrong, but it still feels unsafe. And your mind is just trying to solve this problem. Like, if I did this, then this would have happened when actually I just don't feel good. Like this sucks. So tending to that is more important than trying to figure out what you could have done differently, because obviously there's nothing you could have done. So just giving in to the like, I don't feel good, letting in those feelings, tending to them, because another feeling will show up. You tell me this Nally all the time: like, be kind to yourself in these moments. There's no timeline to that stuff.

Speaker 3

That's so interesting about the brain trying to figure out the puzzle instead of I think what I'm hearing you say again is feeling the feelings. Yeah. Yeah. I could see how it feels like more desirable to no, I'm gonna go into logic mode and figure out why that happened instead of sitting with the shitty feelings.

Speaker

You kind of feel like it's easier to let me just solve this problem. That sometimes there isn't a problem to be solved. And so giving yourself grace when that happens, when your identity is your job, you're just like, What am I? Without it, you're so much more than this one thing. So letting yourself be open to like what else do I want to be right now?

Speaker 3

That's a hard one, the way our identities are so caught up in our jobs. It's a very American thing to it's very American. Do you have any advice on how to pull ourselves out of that or how to find out who else we are outside of our job? If that feels like such a strong pull.

Speaker

Yeah, just acknowledging like this is a part of it that you do have to grieve. An exercise I like to do with my clients is get in touch with your values because if we're outcomes driven, I'm gonna feel better when I get a job. I'm gonna feel better when you don't have to attach your value. To this product. You are an amazing person just as is, but what are the things that bring you fulfillment? If you can lean into that while you're waiting for the outcome to happen, you can always live your values. But in the meantime, how do we just be okay that we're striving?

Speaker 1

When I was out of work two years ago, staying on a routine was something that was really helpful. I don't know if you have any other advice when it comes to that. Or I remember someone also was like, don't spiral too much on job hunting. Like you have to have time for yourself and for your hobby or what brings you fulfillment, times where you're trying to just find other interests outside of work.

Speaker

Routine is amazing because the mind does like routine. And then you can go about your day. Like, okay, I feel good about this. I got to check off these certain things. And then realize your time is precious. So, like, how do you want to spend your time? Do we want to be in our head for like eight hours, or how can we enjoy this as well?

Speaker 3

Because that's the thing about when you're looking for work, you can't spend eight hours a day. That's just no, there's not that many jobs. There's only so much you can do. Yeah, you're gonna maybe see during a week, maybe there's like two jobs that pop up and you'll take the time it takes to apply or if you know someone there, but that's a really small portion of your week. And I think what's hard for people is it's like, oh my God, I need to be doing so much more to find a job. I don't know. There's a lot out of your control, too. Right. The core thing is a very real, I need money to pay the bills. This is starting to feel scary. Am I gonna have to like move in with my parents? You know, there's that. And then there's kind of these layers, right? Then you just start feeling bad about yourself. And how do we deal with the very real stress of I need to find a job or else I may have to move or do something drastic?

Speaker

It sounds like when that happens, you might be going into definitely fight or flight mode. Your nervous system is ready. There's a real threat. So basically, what I'm hearing from this is I don't feel safe. And when I don't feel safe, this is what happens. I start to ruminate on what can go wrong. I start to make all these lists, but actually let's check ourselves. Am I safe in this moment? How much money do I have? Okay, so this is how much I have three months worth or whatever. Am I safe today? And okay, if I don't feel safe, how do I make myself? What's one action towards feeling safe? Can I run into? We can go through all these scenarios, but we don't know which one's gonna show up. And that's the sucky part.

Speaker 3

It is, but you know what? Also, the good part, I guess, too, because again, I'm just using my own experience as the touch point. The job I have now kind of came out of nowhere, right? So it's two sides of the same coin, maybe. Like sometimes you're like, I don't know when a job's gonna show up, but also you don't know when a job's gonna show up.

Speaker

Yeah, so being more curious about, oh my God, I need to get a job, like wondering, oh, I wonder what my new job will be. Being more curious about it instead of pressured about it, we don't want to grab things from fear. We want to come from wholeness and being able to be, okay, is this me just being stressed and taking whatever, or will this enhance my life in whatever way I need it to be?

Speaker 3

I also like what you said about asking yourself, am I safe now? And assessing, okay, where am I at financially? Like, what is it I need to do right now? Because I think it's easy to spiral. And that way of thinking seems helpful to think more logically, like, okay, actually, I do have this amount of time before I need to be worried, or I could talk to that person or whatever it is. So I think that's an interesting way to look at it is to ask that question.

Speaker

Yeah, and what's in your control, right? You can apply for the job, you can network with your friends, okay. And then once you figured out what's in your control, now what can we let go of since we've done everything that we can do that's in our control.

Speaker 1

I know of some people who have been out of work for a really extended period of time, which I know is really hard to not take it personally. And do you have advice for people in that set of circumstances?

Speaker

It's really hard to not take things personally, but if you look around the world, it's not even just in production. I'm seeing a lot of people that the world's just kind of changing so fast. So it can be hard to just acknowledge that this is longer than what I wanted it to be, and this is exactly where I am right now. The type of therapy I do is called acceptance commitment therapy, and it's accepting what you have. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but what can I do to make this moment better? We like to be like, let's figure out the future, let's let's worry about the past, but you only have right now. There's only so much you can do. Constantly telling yourself, I'm okay, that's pretty hard. And just also acknowledging this is real. It's not a made-up thing that I'm feeling unsafe. But at the same time, how do we be more gentle with ourselves while we're doing everything that we need to do?

Speaker 3

You know what I realized helped me when I was starting to spiral and what I tell friends in those positions, Alexis, who are like, wow, they're still out of work, is I go, nothing makes sense. So don't try and make sense of it. Because I'm guessing your friends are in the same boat where they've probably had interviews for jobs that they could do in their sleep. And then when they don't get it, it's like, what the hell? Right. And I had that experience too, where I had some interviews where I'm like, shoo-in, this is an interview for a job and have years of experience in. Like, of course I'm gonna get it. And then don't, because guess what? There's a lot of other people with experience in that role who are looking for a job and maybe they had a different connection, or it doesn't matter. I had to stop trying to make sense of it because I was like, this doesn't make sense. I'm not getting hired for jobs that I should be getting hired for. And then, by the way, the job I did get was managing a department I had never managed. So nothing makes sense. Maybe that sounds a little negative and morbid, but I found it to be helpful because then I stopped trying to make sense of things.

Speaker 1

There's only so much you can rationalize in the two people I'm thinking of specifically. One is the higher up you go, there's just a less and less position. So, and I don't think this person is also willing to necessarily go backwards professionally. And with the other French, they've been in film forever, but they're trying to go into a slightly different part of film, and the skill should transition over. But I think people are probably seeing oh, that person doesn't have experience within that subset of the industry, therefore I will go with these people that are more experienced, even though that person would be incredible. Yeah. I think that's crazy.

Speaker

That's rough, right? Yeah, it sounds like these two are in transition and they want to go for something that's meaningful. So it's hard to be like, okay, how do I show up for myself in something that I authentically love? What are the payoffs? What are the risks, the benefits? What's most important to me going forward here? Or do I do this for now until something happens? And no matter what, we don't know. Things show up, they don't show up, and then only in retrospect do you realize this was why it had to be this way.

Speaker 3

That is such a hard lesson for to learn in general, but I think for production people to learn because our whole jobs are like putting out fires, finding solutions, preventing issues from happening. And so it's weird to be in a place that's more unknown.

Speaker

Yeah, the unknown is what really messes people up. Unknown things causes fear, anxiety, and the fact that you're in production and you're solving problems and you're doing that, and that's great. But there are also times when you need to turn that down so that when it's time to go showtime, you're on top of it. We do need periods of super hyper focus and then rest just to continue to be a normal, functioning person.

Speaker 3

Well, I feel like this is a great transition into another topic. So you finally do get the job. Yay, you're employed. And then it doesn't take too long before you start feeling the stress of being on a show, and you can start feeling burnt out. And I'm just gonna say, we throw around the word burnout a lot in workspaces. Clinically speaking, what is it and what is it not?

Speaker

Everybody has their capacity, their cup that needs to be filled. Burnout is when you've gone beyond the point where you still like your job. It's starting to affect you in the morning. The Sunday scaries for some people. It's that pit in your stomach that's like, ooh, I don't know. I might be overfilling. And when we keep pushing past that, that's when we start to see physical effects. Always go back to admitting to yourself, I can't, this is hard. So what can I do to step back so that I do like my life? It's when you press too hard sometimes. And I know that's part of the job for you guys, or like crunching, and that's fine. But also knowing, like, okay, I'm gonna push, but also how do I give myself a tiny bit of rest so that I can have the motivation to keep going?

Speaker 1

It's so hard when you're in crunch. I know I'm just about to go back into that mode. Maybe it's also a matter of once you do recognize your burnout symptoms and then knowing kind of what your needs are to address them and just like try to avoid it getting too crispy.

Speaker

Yeah. Do you know what your burnout symptoms are, if you don't mind sharing? I was just thinking that.

Speaker 1

It's a great question. I think definitely being more irritable and getting set off more easily. Creatives do not respond well when you show that you are stressed and it's really hard sometimes. A few months ago, specifically, we had this review and we were going through like, here are the priorities, and it was happening so fast. And then everyone was waiting on me to disseminate the information and be like, here's our marching orders. And it was on a Saturday, and it was like, here's what we're doing, but also wanting to like make sure that we were going in the right priority order with what our director was wanting. It was so full on. I did find myself getting to the point where I was like, I need a minute. And that actually is something that I've I think had to work to to like not get overwhelmed, keep the tears at bay. Because like when everyone is coming at you at the same time from like multiple angles, and you're just like, time out in order to get you what you need as efficiently as possible. I need a moment to collect myself and make sure that I am not missing anything, and then go from there. So it was just nice to have that moment of recognizing that kind of probably the work in the past had led to that moment and was successful. And I'm sure that will not always be the case because there are times where I'm sure it could go in that the opposite direction. You got to take the small wins when they happen.

Speaker

No, that is amazing that you're like literally stop. Sometimes you just need to break your body already knows you're like really stressed, you're snapping at people. But yeah, because you want to push through, you'll just keep doing the same thing when all you do need to do is to stop and take a breath. Literally taking a breath signals to your mind that I do not need to run or fight or flee. It means I've I'm okay. And so that signals to the rest of your body, okay, what are my other options? How else can I move forward right now? That was perfect.

Speaker 4

I always say validation from the therapist is always hey, gold star.

Speaker 3

I'd never really pause to think about what are my personal early warning signs of burnout. You could Google it and it's probably a list of general ideas, but everyone's different. That doesn't mean anything. Yeah. If it's so generic, I was like, gosh, what is it? For me, I think apathy becomes a I don't care. I don't care. Nobody cares. I don't care. It kind of bordering on irritability, like you were saying, Alexis, but there's a wave of apathy that nothing matters. I don't care. And or I'll find myself daydreaming about like, I think I want to sell all my belongings and live on a riverboat alone. You know, like some really weird, I want to be alone in a cabin in the forest, and I don't want to talk to anyone. Yeah. That seems like a pretty obvious sign, but I hadn't thought of it as yeah, that's your mind just trying to solve another problem for you.

Speaker

Let me just escape. This would be better. Also, I don't care, but you know you really care. Like that going back to your feelings. Actually, I'm noticing the feeling of stress or distress. I'm noticing fear and anxiety. Your mind is just trying to be helpful, but honestly, if you just acknowledge, it can calm down. It'll be like, okay, I am noticing fear. I am noticing anxiety, but at the same time, what do I need right now while I hang out with this super unhelpful friend?

Speaker 3

Again, that segues very nicely into I was gonna ask about what we can do to prevent early burnout from like really becoming a problem. And it sounds like one, acknowledging that it's even there and pausing to note what you're experiencing, but I don't know what other things can we do to keep that from spiraling into a full-blown major burnout situation.

Speaker

So it's definitely like we talk about grounding techniques. You do need moments of rest and being engaged so that you can know that you're living a full life. When we're on autopilot and we're just going, we don't even know why we're going. That's not even you living your life anymore. You're not even thinking about it. So you want to snap yourself back into what's here, what's concrete, what's now. So basically, what Alexis does is I tell people this like, what's one small thing you can do for yourself in the moment? Literally stop, take a breath so that you can signal to your nervous system that it's okay. And then observe your feelings, whatever they are, be curious about them instead of judgmental. Look around, literally look for five things, engage your senses, and then proceed with your values. What's most important to me in this moment? Showing up for myself, or you know, whatever it could be. It's proceeding with something that's feels good to you.

Speaker 3

So that's it. Oh we almost called this podcast production therapy. Yep. And I'm like, no, I just want Christine to come on every week. Or I want you to talk to producers and directors because so much of burnout can not to place the blame on other people, but place it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. You know who you are, people listening. So ironically, they are the ones that won't be listening to this.

Speaker 3

No, you're right. You're right. I think it comes from the top. And actually, I'll use an opposite example. Like I'm on a show that I think is very healthy, and I think leadership demonstrates very healthy work-life balance. I feel like if I need to take time off, that's fine, you know? And I really appreciate it because it makes a world of difference. Because I've been on shows where that's not the case, and the stress from up top trickles down, and you get the sense that they don't care if you're working long hours. The creative people making changes last minute makes your job harder. And I struggle in how to navigate that.

Speaker

No, that's really hard, right? Because it does come from the top, and everything is so deadline with you all. I worked in healthcare. We were saving lives, literally, but I feel like production and the entertainment industry is way more stressful because everything needs to be here. Yeah, like somebody was telling me they were like a costumer and they needed this red shirt, and they went through heaven and hell to move this red shirt from across the country. I was at the same time trying to move a heart for a baby, and that was like it was for me that took a long time, and it was that's life or death, but for you guys, it's really needs to happen. So the amount of stress that is put on you, it's not unreal. I get it. It's crazy. You had to move a heart for a baby? We were trying to get a heart transplant for a baby, and you know, like you gotta dot your I's and T, so you're like authorization. So it's like crazy, right? There's just different kinds of pressures and time frames. So it literally your heart is like, oh my God, what am I gonna do?

Speaker 3

When that stress happens at work, I think maybe I'll just yell, we're not moving a heart for a baby.

Speaker

Calm down. The only person you're killing is yourself sometimes. So how can we make this easier for you?

Speaker 1

That is a recurring thing with my old edit team. We would always just be like, This isn't life or death. Everyone just needs to take a breath, calm down. To quote Tyree from a few interviews back.

Speaker 3

The cartoon is gonna be okay.

unknown

I love that.

Speaker 3

I want to print that and put it on my wall at work. I wanted to move into the question about neurodivergent burnout because you probably won't be surprised. There's a lot of us with ADHD and other neurodivergent tendencies in animation. And I'm just curious about if burnout looks differently for neurodivergent people than it does, if burnout looks differently for neurodivergent people than it does neurotypical people.

Speaker

It is different, right? You're struggling to operate on the baseline that everyone else is at. So it's already hard to concentrate and figure out your emotions all the time. And then you're like pushing through, and then you crash, and then cycle repeats itself. It does take a lot more energy for the neurotypicals to make sure they know their own triggers and be in touch with your own flow and your capacity. First of all, figuring out like, what are my triggers? When should I not push through? And also, Alexis, like you said, routine is always helpful. It's like so stressful to like figure out what's the next choice. What's the next choice? If it's already laid out for you, you don't have to think about it. So getting yourself into a routine and then also knowing, okay, this is my push past.

Speaker 3

I like the theme that keeps coming up, or a couple of themes, but one of them is knowing your own needs and patterns. And again, you can Google this stuff and come up with a list of generic sort of things to look out for. You know yourself best, right? What depletes me and what gives me energy, and paying attention to that, which I don't always do, but it makes sense. That's the place to start.

Speaker

Yes, I love that. Yeah. Asking yourself what gives me energy, what depletes me, what do I need right now? Really just paying attention to that helps with so much because we don't. We just do things because we know how to do them. And then before you know it, 10 years goes by and you're like, don't want to be here.

Speaker 3

Oh man. So on top of personal stress, we're all absorbing global stress. And I think I speak for a lot of this when I say, you know, sometimes I feel guilty going to work and making cartoons when the world is on fire. It feels like whiplash, you know, you're at work, you're trying to hit deadlines, and then someone's like, Did you hear the news about XYZ? And I'm like, should I be building a bunker? Like, what am I even doing?

Speaker

It can be hard, right? Because you want to care about the world, but at the same time, you have to protect your peace. So a lot of people are coming to me. How can I be a responsible citizen? And also that it's hard to absorb everything that's coming at us. The same thing is like what's in our control. You want to also know your capacity for how much you can take the news. Because back in the day, you would read the newspaper and then you would go to work and that's it. And now it's constant. What I would suggest is kind of give yourself time and place to check these things because even though it feels like the world is ending, look around. We're safe. We are here on a podcast, talking to each other, and also all this stuff is happening. If there's a cause that's important to you, just know that and do an action towards it. But also, we can only do our part and you showing up and making happiness for people, like that's your job. Your job is to lighten my life up when you're working on these things. What I tell people now, and I firmly believe it, is that joy is resistance. If we get beaten up by the world, that's kind of what people want, is for you to just give up, be apathetic, and do nothing. But why don't we lean into what's important in our lives and what brings us joy so that we can have fuel to fight whatever is going on and figure out is that even for me? It's okay. It's okay to just be like, I'm just gonna do me. That's fine too. We are not responsible for the world. We only have our part. I like that joy is resistance a lot.

Speaker 1

I wrote that down too. I thought that was beautiful.

Speaker

It's hard because people they think, oh, I should do more. I should do more. You should spread your light, talk to people, make somebody's day better. That's what you can do.

Speaker 1

When there's so much happening, when we're inundated by so many negative things at the moment. And I know that there's things that we can do, such as we can vote and we can get out there and protest when possible. But I think that the question is, how do you deal with that feeling of you're wishing you can do more and when there's really nothing more that you can do? I guess would be my question.

Speaker

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense, right? Because we feel so much that we are a people's pain affect us. That's what I'm getting from you. And it's hard when all you can do is all you can do, right? It's giving yourself that grace. And also back to noticing. I'm noticing the feeling of hopelessness or the feeling of this or that. It's a feeling. And then another feeling will come and go as well. Being gentle with those, there's sometimes it's always what more do we need to do? What more do we need to do? First we feel, and then sometimes, like when you think about something, not tomorrow. Maybe a week from now, you'll figure out, oh, this would be good. So giving yourself permission that these things don't need to be solved today. And you're just a human living in the world, and the world is scary right now. It doesn't feel safe. So how do we get ourselves to that point of safety feels like?

Speaker 3

Oh, I love this conversation so much. But Christine, as you're talking, it makes, you know, when you're talking about like we're just human, we can't solve all the problems. It's making me think like, just pick one thing to help with. Because I think what I do is in these times when I'm like overwhelmed by what's going on in the world, I go to work and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm just here making cartoons. Like I'm like a musician on the Titanic, just like playing us out. There's this ship sinks, you know, this ship that is the world's. And then I don't do anything, right? And I think it would be more beneficial for myself and for everyone if I, on top of acknowledge the feelings. Okay, what is something I feel like I can do to help? And maybe it's there's a group in LA that delivers water every Saturday to people living on Skid Roll. There's so many things to get involved with. Maybe the microaction is picking one thing instead of just complaining about, oh, there's so many things, and then I don't then I don't help at all.

Speaker

Yeah, action is the antidote to overthinking, it's doing the next helpful thing. So yeah, when we help other people, like we actually get a serotonin boost out of that, picking a thing. And it doesn't have to be insane, right? It could be a smile to a stranger. Like we never know how we change other people. And also, Natalie, I'm just you're like, I'm just working on a cartoon. That cartoon will fucking change my life. Sorry.

Speaker 1

Please swear away. Yeah.

Speaker

I was just thinking about Alexis, and I'm gonna go back to this like K-pop demon hunters. Yeah. It's what if she was like, I'm just working on this cartoon. Meanwhile, it's changing the narrative for little girls. Like, you are making a contribution to the world. Open up your sphere of influence. Your like ripple is it's like boundless, and you don't even know. So you're not just doing whatever.

Speaker 1

No, that means so much. I before K-pop, I rapped a film where it was such an incredible crew, and it was a huge learning curve for me on that show. And critically, it did well, but it didn't do well enough at the box office. We don't yet, not sure if this will ever change, but the thing that was so heartbreaking is that the crew wouldn't work together again. I didn't have like even opportunity, like we went out as a crew the day it opened, and there were so few people at that screening. I didn't really get the opportunity to hear people react to this thing that I'd worked on so hard for so long with an incredible group of people. And it really made me question that what am I leaving with this world and and what's it all for if you're killing yourself for so long and then the box office for whatever reason it doesn't do well. And then you're like, what is the point? And my a very wise work wife at the time said to me that the point was we all had that opportunity to work with one another and learn from one another and become better filmmakers, which I so agree with. Going from that to K-pop, which was like the polar opposite experience, was so interesting and so exciting. We were talking before we started recording that you listen to the show. The fact that Natalie and I are like, oh my God, people listen. And like with K-pop, you're like, oh my god, people are watching, especially at the time when it came out. Who knew what it would become? And it would be hit this incredible cultural zeitgeist. And to have been a small part of that is the most gratifying thing. But then you're like, is this the only time I'll ever have this in my career?

Speaker

And you don't know.

Speaker 1

You don't know, I know.

Speaker

And you don't know. And it's so soak it in, right? Because we don't know. It could even be better the next time. We don't know. The thing I was saying about being like outcomes driven, the point is that you're doing it right now. That experience, that first heartbreaking experience, might have led you to this one. And then it'll change your perspective on the next one and the next one. So not judging yourself on stuff. And yeah, this feels great. We'll take it. Shoe's not gonna drop. We feel good.

Speaker 1

No, it's actually used to say that just me clicked, and I don't think I've ever had this before. That I do think the experience before set me up for my role on K-pop. It's cool when you have that feeling of you're like, oh yeah, I'm at the right level job-wise. I know what I'm doing, and I I have the tools to do it and feel confident. Cause I think there are times where I've been in a job, that constant feeling of being overwhelmed and not necessarily having the experience to do the job as effectively as I would have wanted to. But that also is just like time in the position.

Speaker

Yeah, you're exactly where you need to be. It's really hard to tell yourself that, but no matter where you are, that's exactly where you need to be. So not overthinking that is hard, right? The movie will get done or the experience will happen. We can do it with a lot of struggle, or we can do it with, okay, this is how it is. And it's the problem is not having feelings, not feeling overwhelmed. It's trying to control those feelings. So knowing, okay, I feel a little crazy. I'm unsure. Okay, that makes sense. It that totally makes sense. Yeah. And it's okay.

Speaker 1

Oh, no, I appreciate you saying that because the feeling of just you're like, oh my God, I'm here again. Can I do this again? It's so stressful, or I'm the mole and whack-a-mole for the 20 millionth time. Here we go. It's hard kind of resetting every day.

Speaker

That's why you have to know, like, why am I doing this? Why is this important to me?

Speaker 1

What's so funny is every time I'm like, oh, oh yeah, that's why I'm doing it. Okay, cool. I'm that crazy person that if I were to win the lottery, I'd be like, let's make a movie, guys, with like my favorite people. Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 3

I was waiting for you to echo me earlier and be like, you know what, Christine, I quit. Thanks for the advice. Also, I have to say, Christine, obviously, I only know you as a friend and not a therapist, but I've just been thinking, like, oh, she must be a wonderful therapist. You have such a calming presence. Yeah, I'm just giving you that feedback. Yeah.

Speaker

It's like, yeah, no, I feel uncomfortable. Thank you. I'm acknowledging my feelings. Thank you. Yeah, it does feel weird, right? Because for so long I was running away from it. And now I'm like, oh yeah, this is good. It's nice to know where you fit in the world. The mind likes to complete things. That's why I'm obsessed with Candy Crush or whatever it is, because you get to solve this problem and then your brain thinks it's fine. But that could also be a distraction. But when you actually do one meaningful thing, then you kind of want to keep going. And then sometimes we get addicted to it. So then that's when we have to be like, oh, why am I doing this? Am I chasing this high? Or is it we've done enough for today?

Speaker 3

So we had an interview last night with another production staff, fellow productioner. And we were like, hey, we're interviewing a therapist tomorrow. What would you want to ask? And she'd said something about how do you what's a good way to manage your brain when you're spiraling? When you come home from work and you're like, oh, I wish I had done that thing differently, or you're ruminating over like maybe a mistake that happened at work.

Speaker

Whoa, yeah, that is so normal for everybody all the time. Is oh, I should have said this, I should have said that. Honestly, a trick is to name that story. Like, why are we doing that? What is that? What is the internal dialogue? Because you kind of want to get at the theme of it so that it's not, again, a problem to be solved. It's just something. Oh, that's that thing I tell myself. So you're like, oh, that's the super helpful Tanya. Externalize that thought so that it's out of your head. It's just trying to work itself out. Maybe write it down. I always tell people to do a journaling, like a morning pages exercise is write down all your thoughts, fears, worries, and then you'll realize they're just words on the page. And then you can continue on with your day. In your head, it's so much, but really it's just a worry. So noticing and naming those so that you can be like, okay, that was stressful. Now I need to go on a walk. How you feed and how you move yourself is super important too. You can't control your hours. You can't control how people interact with you, but what can you do? Can you take that walk for yourself? Can you take a breath? What foods do I feel good in? Because they're all connected. Yeah.

Speaker 3

And I like that. It makes sense to take the spiraling that's happening in your head and put it on the page or get it out of your head verbally or through your hand. Makes sense. Because I've done that before, and you're like, oh, I feel better. I just get it out of my brain.

Speaker

And what's the real feeling? What's happening? Am I just sad? I'm just sad. And I'm trying to figure out why I'm sad. So I'm spiraling on what could I have done differently when I'm just not feeling great. And that's okay.

Speaker 3

I also feel better knowing that so many people do that, right? And that's why I always harp on self-compassion exercises. Because part of those is acknowledging that it's a very common thing to feel you're upset about something you did at work that you would have done differently. And for me, it's helpful to be like, you know what? Everyone has felt like this at some point, and probably is right now. I'm not the only person to feel this way.

Speaker

And that's comforting. When somebody's like, oh my God, the thing is the most embarrassing thing until you say it out loud.

Speaker 1

Yes. When Elise asked this question during her interview, I was like, I feel so seen. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh man, like the amount of times where you just step on it, you just say something you're like, fuck, I could have said that so much better, or I said that in a way that set someone off the last thing I meant to do, or you're spinning out on a conversation that just did not go well. Yeah, it is really hard not to take work home with you.

Speaker

Right.

Speaker 1

And I think what I was curious to ask leaning into that is like with perfectionism, because I think that for me is part of why I spin out, because I'm like, oh, I made a mistake, or that didn't go to plan. I think perfectionism is something that has been haunting me through school and through work, and ironically, not with running. Running, which is like how I get out my stress. I just am so happy to do it. I had a bad knee and I never thought I would be able to run again. And so then having a good friend who also does what we do lured me to start running through going to Vegas and to the rock and roll marathon. Oh, I was there. Oh my God. Did you do it this past year? Yes. No way. Oh my god.

Speaker

I knew you guys would connect. It's the funnest race, I think. It is the funnest.

Speaker 1

But that's the one thing, and I don't understand why. I am fine not being the fastest, because I feel like in that respect, you're working against yourself and you're battling yourself, but you're like, but I did it. And I'm a runner because I run. And I've seen so many people say that they've struggled with calling themselves a runner because they're like, oh, I'm not breaking records or I'm on the slower side or whatever. I never thought I'd ever be physically capable to run a marathon, but we did it. And I was drinking wine three hours after, which I know is not the right thing to do, but it was amazing.

Speaker

Yeah, no. See, that's the thing with the perfectionism. It's like you have this internal rule that I need to be perfect or else I'm not worthy. Perfectionism is healthy, right? Things get done right and on time, and it's super helpful. Everyone's, oh, perfect. We'll give this to you. You'll get it done, and you feel good because you're getting things done. And it's like just knowing when it's unhealthy. Ah, this is why I love running in marathons. It's like when you let that go, when you're like, I just do this because I like to, and I can do hard things every day. You're doing hard things. You have your feelings and you're like running, you can do hard things. And it's like dropping the struggle that I have to do this a certain way is the freeing part of it.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And it touches into you've been talking about being uh, how did you say it? Outcome focused versus values focused, right? I feel like that is a perfect example of like I value moving my body, and or whatever reason you get into running, and it's not the goal of I have to be the fastest or I have to do so many marathons. It's like you're just in it. It comes back to mindfulness too. We haven't even done that.

Speaker

I feel like we've been dipping in and out. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Oh, I love that. My next question Do you have a favorite animated movie?

Speaker

Oh, it's gonna be the K-pop Demon Hunters Prime. Yay, I knew it. It has it, oh, and I on your podcast, you guys were talking about how the Tagalog, by the way, you guys said Tagalog perfect. So that was so nice. It tickles me so much that it's in all these different languages. Oh, and not only me, but everyone. It's so fun because the babies love it. I love it. It's all ages, it's so great. I'm like so for clumped right now.

Speaker 1

I'm like my mom, I'm like, oh, I'm speechless. I okay.

Speaker

Yeah, I'm a little obsessed, so I'm gonna stop.

Speaker 3

No, now's your chance. Do you have any questions for Alexis on K-pop?

Speaker

I know. Thank you for the whole story, like your part in it, like bringing it into the world. I just see the story of EJ and her rise. She was it from what I know, she was like in a K-pop group, right? And it didn't work out. And then she could have been like beating herself up, but guess what? Her come up ins come like later in life, and it's even better because she went through all of that. So, like her story, uh I just love it. This is just me being a fangirl.

Speaker 1

The crew, they've did such an incredible job assembling the team at Sony and ImageWorks and also our actors and singers. And EJ, from what I hear, is just like the most lovely woman, was just like really great to work with. And I think it's just been so moving seeing their kind of rise and performing all over the world, even at Coachella last weekend, which is so cool. Yeah.

Speaker

Yeah. And the theme is let's not hide from our emotions. Our emotions are like our superpower and that she was trying to be perfect. That's basically the theme of today. It's let's have this mask on, but it's actually when you take that off, when you're the most vulnerable, that's when you shine.

Speaker 4

Oh, Christine, I love you. I know. I want to give you a hug right now. I want to give you a hug.

Speaker 3

Just not every time we uh interview somebody, because sometimes we're both meeting someone for the first time. We've been like, let's do dinner. And obviously, Christine and I do that, but we'll have to bring you along, Alexis, and I would love that.

Speaker

Oh, that would be great. Yeah. I love knowing Natalie's work friends.

Speaker 3

Oh, come on. Although Alexis and I have never worked together. Well, you are right now. Yeah, that's great. We are work friends. Yeah. It's happening in this moment. Um you're amazing. Because I was just thinking about you have touched on this a little bit in one of your bios that I've read. You mentioned that you're a first-generation Filipina woman who's very familiar with things like acculturation, intergenerational conflict, microaggressions. And I know you've mentioned having clients who have appreciated that, who have a similar experience. Just wondering, can you touch on how that experience helps you work with your clients?

Speaker

So just being a person of color, right? It all goes back to finding the right fit for you. I'm Filipino American. That's my background. So there's certain things you don't have to explain to me if you're coming from the same thing. You don't have to explain that connection is super important for us, and that we have a strong sense of responsibility for others that maybe in a different culture is individuation and being your own person is the most important. So it's just trying to figure out what parts of my upbringing were helpful and what parts that are not helpful anymore. And being like, oh, I'm okay with that. I'm my own person. And so we struggle a lot with people pleasing, like a lot of us do, because like if we're not nice, then who are we? So just trying to figure out, is that true? Like, I think we're good how we are roundabout way. But yeah, it's just nice to have somebody who has your background or who can feel you. I used to think, oh, I have to know all the techniques. And I've told you, Natalie, ooh, here's an intervention. Ta-da. Did you like it? But it's more let's really people want to be heard and seen. And that's what I just hope to give people is that however way you want to come through and about it.

Speaker 3

I just like how you shine a light on like, here's my background and here's my cultural experience. And because I think people probably love being able to show up as your client and not have to do extra explaining about why something is important to them or to their family dynamics.

Speaker

So Yeah, Natalie, you touched it's Christine Magott Douglas is my full name. And I used to hate saying Magott because it's so hard to pronounce for people. And once I got married, I'm like, yes, Douglas, that's it. Now we don't have to explain. And now I'm like, oh, I kind of want you to know me more. It's so weird the therapist as the whiteboard versus we're actually people and we want you to get to know yourself as well. It's so different how it is now, and I love it.

Speaker 3

Yay. I know we had talked before we started recording where I was like, Oh, are you using Magat again? Because I know it had just been Christine Douglas, and you were like, Yeah, I want people to know who I am, and I love that.

Speaker

Yeah, it's so weird. You're like, oh, I have to be this certain person or to present to the world. But actually, no, that's what makes you that you are different from everybody else.

Speaker 3

But it's so it's it feels weird still. Yeah, it is weird that authenticity still feels scary. Yeah. But anytime I've ever shared something about myself that maybe I think is weird, just I don't know, with a friend at work, wherever, like nine times out of ten, they're like, Oh my gosh, me too. Or I have a similar, I'm like, why do I hide anything about myself?

Speaker

Like, just here I am, take me or leave me. I know. I'm always embarrassed to share something and then I overshare, and then they're like, Oh, that's great. And I'm not embarrassed anymore. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We are so judgmental of our own selves.

Speaker 3

Oh, Alexis and I talk about that constantly because we'll listen to uh an edit of one of our episodes. I'm always like, You sound great. I gotta work on. I'm speaking too fast, I'm doing this. And she's like, No, you sound great. I've gotta work on. We have no critiques for the other person. It's all on ourselves. And I'm like, no one else is noticing these personal ticks, I'm sure.

Speaker

Not at all. You both sound great, and I've listened to a few. So yeah.

Speaker 4

She's listened to a few. She's listened to more than one. So exciting. Yes.

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yes. I love it. My question is memory. I know with COVID, COVID has affected memory, long-term memory, or just with work, there's so much that's thrown at us. And I know that there's so many details that we're juggling. And I found recently if I don't write it down, sometimes I'll be mid-thought and then it will fly out of my brain. I'm like, oh my God, what was that? Because someone has either come and talked to me, or I've gotten a message, or I've been texted. When you're inundated by technology from multiple sides, it's really hard to sometimes focus. I have a thought on this after Christine answers.

Speaker

When your brain gets overloaded, memory will start to fail you. So that makes sense when you forget things. Your brain can only take so much. So how would you know? It's notice your memory when you're not in times of stress. That's what you have to figure out. Ooh, is it that I'm like overwhelmed?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I find that even personally, there are times where I have to write everything down of, oh, I need to do this today or this, because after we work bonkers hours, long hours during the week, and so you just have the weekend to recover, to get your life admin stuff done. It's hard to really relax. I just feel like there's so much on my plate all the time.

Speaker

Yeah. So it sounds like your mind is operating on this rule. I need to be productive, I need to be busy all the time and honestly give yourself some space. Rest is important. You have to rest so that you can build your muscle. So reframing your what you think is, it's not unproductive. It's super productive to have rest. Like, I can't even imagine, like, how are you gonna remember everything? That doesn't make sense. Like, you're not a robot. There's things that are priority that those are the most important things to remember.

Speaker 3

When people are like, Do you remember when we did this thing? And I'm like, no, when it was it before 2018, I probably forgot. So if that's any consolation, I appreciate that.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

Speaker 1

It all goes back to the perfectionism thing.

Speaker

I know.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And why you're in production, because production I think favors perfectionist.

Speaker

It's super helpful for everybody else, right?

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I don't know why it was so funny to me, but yeah, it is. If you're doing everything perfectly, it's helpful for everyone else, but not you mentally. Yeah.

Speaker

Well said. People pleasing and perfectionism works for everybody else. And then when you're like starting to take control, people are like, ugh, and they're gonna want to bring you back because you were so helpful the other way. In the meantime, you're dying. So that's why we have to be mindful of ourselves because no one's gonna mind you, right? If you want to get walked over, no problem. Works for me. Oh, it's so hard.

Speaker 1

People pleasing. Because I know we didn't actually talk too much about that yet. Because I think that is a common production thing for sure.

Speaker

This is who I am. This is my identity. And so we live by these unconscious rules of everyone has to like me or I have to know what I'm doing all the time. And then if we don't meet that, like our brain is just trying to get us back there instead of being like, I just feel anxious or I don't want to feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 3

That's a big one. Yeah. Being uncomfortable is not comfortable. Although I'll say, as I've gotten older, I'm like too tired to people please. Right. That makes any sense. Yeah. I'm a little like, I don't, I'm too tired. Just what do you need? And I'll tell you if I have the bandwidth to do it.

Speaker

I think just becoming yourself, you start to be like, why do I do this? Who's it helping? Not me.

Speaker 3

But it takes so long to get to that point. Oh, if I could like take everything I've learned in life, in therapy, whatever, and then time travel back to my 20s. I'm like, oh, I'd be this enlightened being with an amazing digestive system and really good eyesight. Oh my god. That you needed to go through that to get to hear.

Speaker

Yeah, that's true. But therapy is helpful so that we can learn it faster.

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Um, should we do our fun little like little rapid fire questions? Let's do it. Oh, fun. Where I was like, oh, we'll do some lighter ones. We thought it would be fun since we're talking about kind of heavier topics to do. Okay. See what you think. But morning routines, helpful or overrated? Oh, super helpful.

Speaker

Ah man. Haven't you noticed when you do have a morning routine how easier the day is?

Speaker 3

Yes. Yes. It is so much better. Gut feelings, trustworthy or questionable?

Speaker

Ooh, this one's a complicated one, right? I'm sure, yeah. My work is to help you trust your gut because gut is super helpful, but it's like our questioning it is like, why am I doing this? Am I doing this because I'm people pleasing or because I want to get rid of this guilt feeling? That's why we're always going back to grounding and feeling yourself in your body and your bones so that you could be like, oh, this feels off. So it always starts with a whisper. I say gut.

Speaker 3

Interesting. But it's almost like listening to your gut, but also asking yourself, why is my gut telling me that? What's this coming from?

Speaker

Kind of, yeah, learning to trust it because a lot of times, especially for like our culture with Asian Americans, no, I'll tell you what you need to think and do and feel. And we're like, okay, sounds great. Like versus, I don't really want to do this, or I don't feel good about this, but I'm just gonna go get along to go along. It doesn't mean you need to change, it's just paying attention. Like, why? Yeah.

Speaker 3

Okay, how about this? Are people too self-aware or not self-aware enough?

Speaker

Oh, this is another one. It depends on the person.

Speaker 3

There's a lot of therapy speak now in the world, I think, than there used to be. But is it helping us or hindering us? I say both.

Speaker

Okay. Right? It's nice to have language, but what I don't like is sometimes people weaponize the language. What I hate is, oh, this is triggering to me. This is a so what are you gonna do? Just never be triggered. You have to deal with your triggers. A lot of us don't know what they are, but now they're like, oh, I'm so aware. Okay, great. What are we gonna do about them?

Speaker 3

There was a comedian, a stand-up comedian I saw recently who was talking about this topic of, oh, people are a lot more open to therapy and have a lot more self-awareness. And he's like, I'm not actually sure that's good. And he gave an example of a friend of his admittedly, I realize I'm a really anxious person and I just deal with a lot of anxiety. And the comedian was like, Oh, that's great that you are aware of that. What are you doing to help yourself feel better? And the friend was like, Oh, I'm not gonna do anything about it. I'm just letting you know so you can all adjust accordingly.

Speaker

And I'm like, I think there's some truth to that. Yeah, yeah. That's like the first part is knowing, and then there's more. Oh, you've been so generous with your time.

Speaker 1

We cannot thank you enough. Thank you for oh my gosh, this is my first podcast. Yay! There's so much life that changes, and then you're encountering something for the first time. It's so helpful to be in therapy to be able to work through things where you're like, oh, this is a new one. And so I think it would be really cool as we kind of go forward with the podcast to be able to have you back as we hit different milestones and just do check-ins. And I would love that so much. Me too.

Speaker

Yes, thank you. You guys have made me feel super comfortable. So thank you for that. Thank you for all the joy you make in the world in this heavy place. We need artists, right? To bring beauty to the world because what is life without that?

Speaker 3

So thank you. Thank you, Christine. Thank you, guys. Before we get into our question of the week, I just want to say this episode is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice.

Speaker 1

Nat, you sound so proper. Like a lawyer?

Speaker 3

You sound so lawyerly. Thank you. That's what I was going for. So don't sue us if you're still fucked up. Will that hold up in court? No, but seriously, you know what? I'll add this. But you should seek professional help if you feel like you need it. And I firmly believe if you're even starting to think of, huh, maybe I should go to therapy, do it. Because it's can be a real pain to find somebody that you like. And even with good insurance, it sometimes takes a beat. So don't wait till you're completely not functional. If you've got that little, maybe I should just do the legwork now. Because you could cancel if you change your mind. But it's just so much easier to make an appointment and find a therapist when you have the energy still and not when you're in a pit of sorrow or a pit of anxiety or whatever your personal pit may be. Oh, your personal pit.

Speaker 1

Your personal pit. Personal pit. Some good alliteration. Thanks. Also beautifully said, we wanted our end question to be in the vein of the episode. NDJ. What is your favorite self-care go-to?

Speaker 3

I am a daily meditator and have been for 10 years now. So that's my biggest daily self-care thing. But also, I mean, kind of tying into what I said in the intro after we did this interview, and I was like, oh, I need to make some changes. Some of that was just the basics. Am I even drinking enough frickin' water? No. Have I eaten a vegetable recently? Probably not enough. So I've more recently been trying to do really basic stuff, like getting enough sleep, drinking a lot of water, eating some non-processed foods, but I haven't done anything that's like a bigger self-care thing. Get a massage or book a float pod. I'm curious, one, what your go-to self-care is, and if you have daily versus something a little more luxurious.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I would say my daily self-care, and this won't come as a surprise, because I think my meditation is running when I'm not injured. And that also involves PT at the moment and a lot of stuff for sciatic pain, which is not pleasant. Coming off the screening crunch, I found kind of self-care has taken like a lot of different forms, starting with food. My favorite donut place in the area I'm on the west side is Sycar Donut. So being able to go and get like my favorite breakfast donut and a coffee is just delicious and has been such a lovely treat. And then being able to reach out to friends that I haven't, I've just been, I feel like I fell off the map. So it's been really nice getting to catch up with people that I've missed who are in challenging time zones to stay up with, especially with crazy work schedules. So yeah. And I uh, in terms of the extra pampery, I have been doing acupuncture partly for the knee injury, but also my doctor also does massages and they had a cancellation. It's so hard to get in, but it's through insurance. And I will say she kicked the shit out of me yesterday, but it was phenomenal. And I woke up this morning and I was like, oh, my knee pain is actually like a little better. Getting to like stuff like that has been lovely.

Speaker 3

Oh man, I forget it's sometimes through insurance, like through a chiropractor, you can get massages. I gotta take advantage of that. Hi, guys.

Speaker 1

Take advantage of your health insurance.

Speaker 3

I also have never thought about donuts as self-care, and I appreciate that suggestion.

Speaker 1

Anytime. You know, and a charcuterie board also counts as self-care.

Speaker 3

Oh, fuck yeah. Yeah, fucking cheese, cheese as self-care.

Speaker 1

Cheese and wide in moderation.

Speaker 3

I was like, I don't know if our therapist would agree, but sure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, ignore a doctor's warnings for that. It's bullshit that they say that women cannot drink as much as men. It's rude. So rude. So rude.

Speaker 3

On that note, we'll see you all next week. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, please leave us a review. It's pretty easy actually on Apple. You scroll down, you click some stars, you can make up a funny name, and then write a review. So we would love to see those. It's really helpful for the podcast. Cue the effects noise.

Speaker 1

You've been listening to the production desk. We are our own producers. Outro by Marcus Taylor.

Speaker 3

If you have a moment, we'd love a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find the production desk on Instagram and Facebook. For any episode ideas, please reach out.