Episode 48 - Jeff McDonald talking about mindset and why we do what we do

Ah shit, where do you start? This interview with Jeff went for a long time, and we covered a lot of ground. And usually we do a reasonably long 2 to 3-minute intro. I don’t think this podcast needs that. So I am just going to jot down some dot points on the subjects that you will pick up on. Here goes:

> We humans dominate this earth because we have a front brain.

> There’s a science behind how we act.

> Jeff follows Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Click here.

> Farmers have a lot of fear because everything is on the line.

> We act black or white but need to be more grey.

> Jeff explains what a true leader looks like.

> We have fixed mindsets around what has served us well.

> When you have a need, you will try to control the outcome.

> None of us listen enough.

> We need to make things not about us.

> Find independence.

I hope you enjoy. End of message.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi everyone, welcome to the Farmers Club Private Podcast. We do these podcasts in conjunction with our assist of business farmtender. Go to farmtender.com.au and sign up from there. This interview with Jeff McDonald went for a long time and we covered a lot of ground. And usually we do a reasonably long two to three minute intro. I don't think this podcast needs that. So I'm just gonna read out some dot points on the subjects that you will pick up on. Here goes. We humans dominate this earth because we have a front brain. There's a science behind how we act. Jeff follows Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and I'll put a link in. Farmers have a lot of fear because everything's on the line, or it feels like that. We act black or white, but we need to be more grey. Jeff explains what a true leader looks like. We have fixed mindsets around what has served us well. When you have a need, you will control. You will try and control the outcome. None of us listen enough. We need to make things not about us. And we need to find independence. I hope you enjoy End of Message. Welcome along, Jeff. Good going well, thanks. Um now we'll start this off. You want to just lay a bit of foundation here, is that correct? And um about this mindset and podcast that we're gonna do. So I'll give you the floor and you can sort of go at it and I'll I'll ask some questions a bit later.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah. No, thank you, Duane. It's there's a bit of framework around it that you know, if I run run through a few things first, it'll tie into a bit of QA. Um firstly, thanks for having me. Um nervous because you've um I I read and I've I feel like I'm on a pedestal and I'm and you know, as as as we discussed, this isn't my expert topic. This is me just sharing my experience and knowledge and my thoughts on things with a you could call it a little bit of amateur learning there. But um, so of course, a bit more vulnerable than normal in uh in this conversation. Um that's the whole point, of course, is uh let's share it and see if people get value out of it. Um couple of things I just want to touch off too is um, you know, as your listeners would know, I'm not a trained psychologist, I'm not a professional any of this. So everything I know is uh or everything I'm gonna talk about is what I see is learned. There's a lot of personal opinion in there, there's you know, whatever. But again, the concept is this is what I see, this is and and you know, myself changes, learnings, all the rest of it. And this is just me being an open book and saying how I see it. I don't use I use the odd big word, but then I'll explain it because I find it hard to understand any of these big words, and and um yeah, but only just you know for a bit of context. So, you know, any professional psychologist will have been laughing their heads off out there, but that's not what it's about. It's about trying to get it in understandable. Um, the other quick thing I just want to touch on, and you know, this happens sometimes when I'm presenting, you know, to people in particular and so on. Um I I do, you know, when I say it like it is, and some of this stuff can be uh taken a bit personally at times. Um, you know, whether you call it get your, you know, push your buttons or triggers or whatever else. And and I've had it myself, you know, people were totally, in fact, I actually had it on the weekend, I was listening to a podcast, and the way the person was sort of selling stuff around finance, it really uh like I pushed my buttons because of the threat that it provided, I thought out there, and and so I reacted and maybe even over-reacted at times. So that can happen, you know. I might be talking about stuff here, but this is what I say, and it again sounds a bit wow wow, but if you feel that you're bristled, you know, I've pushed your buttons or you're defensive and you're thinking, ah, you know, or you're even a bit hurt, you know, I've said something or I've given an example that you relate to. The key thing here to remember is it's not, I'm not talking to any of your listeners, you know, I don't know them. So if they feel that, it's nothing to do with me, and I'm not targeting them, you know, they don't have to be defensive with me, of course. What I invite them to do, of course, is to try and understand where they come from, because that's this whole point, you know, belief systems, mindset, you know, all these words we use are um they're all around who we are and how we roll per se. And to be able to understand that, the the truth is it's actually all internal. Because, you know, like we joke, I could I could say Richmond are terrible and you could laugh or you could be hurt, you know. The the the point there is, you know, it's how you feel about it internally as to what it is, not what someone says to you. So I I just want to say that it's a perfect opportunity, and I've done it before, and I've just quick example. I was in a meeting one day and somebody said to me that um he said, Can't you hang on to your staff? And I said, What do you mean? He said, Oh, I've been in here five times in the last four years, and you've had a different person at reception every time. And I just launched into this defence. You know, I was just, yeah, well, this is what happened, and this is what happened, and I'm giving all this explanation. And then I got home that night and I sat down and thought, why'd I do that? Why do I launch into a defence? Because he pushed a button, because the accusation I took as an accusation, it wasn't, it was an observation, and he was right. I'd had lots of different staff in there, and for a number of reasons, we're only hiring them on a year basis, school leavers and you know, attempts and things like that, and and lots of different explanations. But why did I feel like defending that? Because it obviously meant something to me, you know. So these sorts of things are what's important, people. So I've spin off.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

A podcast could be a good forum for these sorts of things as well, because not talking directly to someone, you know, you're you're talking about something that someone might, you know, take on board, but you're not talking directly to anyone.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Even absolutely, even when I'm talking to a group, and I'm obviously not targeting individuals, but their reaction and their body language and their interaction, of course, can show up what I've done, and and then of course they might lock it out and things like that. Whereas at least if someone's in their safe place at home or on the tractor or wherever they're listening to this, they can, you know, they can sort of ask themselves why I pushed what button did I push? You know, and that's a great learning in itself. So so ready for my first big word? I'll go into my spew now. Amygdala. If you've ever any any of your listeners ever heard of the amygdala, this is all my learnings too. Um, most people would have heard of fight and flight. Um, and this is what the amygdala is. It's um, you know, the part of the brain that it effectively controls the release of things like uh adrenaline and um cortisol, which are adrenaline in particular, is a stimulant. So, you know, in that going out to battle, you know, in a sport, you know, all these things that when when the situation arises and you need to lift a bit, then it loads up the adrenaline and you know, the body does this, the amygdala does this, it gets you ready, and you know, going into a fight or something like that. And so it um it produces chemicals and it actually does things. So this is science, you know, it does things to your body to prepare you. So fight and flight is exactly that. That's what the amygdala does, you know. And my my best example of that I heard was you know, you're in the jungle and a tiger's coming at you, and you've got about two seconds. Of course, if we stop there and plan whether we're, you know, all the strategy and the planning about whether we climb the tree or we take a step there or what we do, pick up a stick, you're dead, you know. So what the body actually does, the amygdala kicks in, the fight and flight, and it actually shuts down the part of the brain, another big word, the prefrontal cortex or the frontal lobe, it shuts that down and so that it doesn't sit there and try and plan it, and it just does something. And it could be that you fight, it could be that you run, it could be whatever, and obviously hopefully not freeze in that situation, but the the fight and flight is a chemical reaction in your brain designed for your protection and your safety. So, you know, even and then this is a bit controversial, but when I when I see and hear stories of like hit and runs, you know, where someone's there's an accident and someone's done a bolt, especially if it's a person hit, and straight away their judgment starts coming out of me, and everyone else says, Oh, the bastard or whatever, you know, they did a runner and all this. But I I as long as a person, you know, either comes back within a short space of time or turns himself in or something and owns it and everything else, I have a fair bit of compassion around that and a bit of understanding to say that wasn't they didn't make a conscious decision to do that. They're sitting in a car that potentially did something, and the initial reaction, and there's a choice of fight and flight, well, they're in already in flight mode because they're already sitting in a car, and their brain shuts down and does whatever it has to do to get out of the you know danger zone. And then when it settles down, that's the true character test, then, do they own up, go back and all that, or do they try and hide? You know, so I just use that as an example where you know there are things that happen with all of us and have over our lives. We can all look back in our lives and see things that have happened that you know sometimes we're not proud of, and sometimes we're um immensely proud of how heroic we were or whatever it might be. But at the end of the day, that was just natural reaction. It wasn't a conscious decision. It doesn't necessarily define people, it's just how it is. So um, so I just wanted to put context around that to get that understanding. So probably the separation in that, the other part of that is this frontal lobe, prefrontal cortex. And the way I describe that is to say only we dominate the earth. Out of all the animals out there, there's bigger, faster, stronger, um, hungrier ones than us. Why are we the dominant species? And it's because we've got that part of the brain. We can plan, we can strategize, we build houses, we we set up systems, food systems, you know, and we transport, we keep inventing. And we have that skill set that the animals don't have. They have the same part of the brain as us, though. They have the primitive brain, they've got instinct, they've got reactions, they've got an amygdala, they've got all that same stuff, except we just have this planning stuff. So that's when you when you look at animals and how they react, you know, birds, how do they know when to build a nest? How do they, you know, they don't have a calendar, you know, how do they know when to mate, how to mate, lay eggs, you know, all this sort of all this innate stuff that's goes. Well, we've got all that. And you know, that's all built into us. The other part of what we've got is we talk about a lot and we use media and we do all these other clever things because we're clever. So um, so keep that in mind that our natural behaviour that comes from, I call it the back of our brain, you know, where the amygdala is and feelings and a lot of those sorts of stuff, that's natural with a lot and um, yeah, separates us. Now, the other thing I just want to tie in here, and and people have probably heard it, and again, I'm sorry for the big words, but Maslow's hierarchy of needs, if you've ever heard of that or anyone's ever heard of that. And I don't get caught up in the in the deep words in it, and some some diagrams I've seen have big words, I get no idea what they mean. But the concept of it is really um hits home to me because it's all of us every day. I see this all over and over again. When you and and and probably my example here is a country farmer versus uh my joke, um, as in my life coach and a few people I know, my inner city left-leaning vegan friends. Um, and um, and I joke about it because they're all lovely people, every one of them, the farmers and whatever. But we we have, you know, we talk about in farming all the time, and in ag is, you know, are they the enemy? You know, are they that these green voters in the inner city, are they the enemy? Or are they actually the ones that can and will want to spend lots of money on what we grow and produce? You know, so when are they our friends? When don't we like them? Why don't we like them? You know, well if we are they a threat to us, you know, because they vote for another political party or they believe in ideology stuff rather than the core roots stuff. Where does all that come from? Well, this is where Maslow's hierarchy of needs fits in for me. And just quickly, and those who want to look it up, of course, if you want to put it in there, but the bottom, the bottom line, I call this the the the core, the foundations. The bottom line is basically your own your own uh ability to live, you know, food, water, water, shelter, warmth, you know. Um so food, clothing, shelter, just bare, bare essentials to live. The next line's also really important, you know, because it's safety, it's your security. So it's safety is in your house around you, your employment, your your assets or whatever, any sort of safety you've got on there. Um and then you start going into stuff like the social, you know, friendships and belonging and and uh all those sorts of things. And next one's uh self-esteem, you know, self-worth, you know, accomplishment, you know, those and the top one is they call it self-actualization, like inner fulfillment. And the way I describe it is there are a lot of farmers out there due to a lot of reasons, like, you know, it could be economic policies, it could be threats of war and therefore supply of hurt and fuel, it could be um banks, it could be uh droughts, of course, and commodity prices. And of course, they're risking the lot. Everything's on the line. They've got mortgages over their farms, they have a couple of bad years, they actually lose their house. They lose their, you know, that that that safety level, you know, around where they fit and where they sit. There are a lot of farmers, prime producers, and and not just farmers and prime producers, but there's a lot of people out there that they live their lives at a at a level of fear, I call it, that, you know, if things don't go their way, everything's at risk. So when I turn around and and pick on my friends that are in a city left-leaning vegans, I just uh I'm I I should I'll get in so much trouble saying that. But it's anyway. Here's the joke. What what so I've got a profile of a person I'm thinking of here, you know, her and her husband, they're in their late 50s, their parents have passed on, they've inherited their wealth, they've had houses in uh in Adelaide in the city for a number of many years, they've built a lot of equity in it, small, if not no mortgage on good salaries each. And at the end, and their families are educated enough making their own, making grandkids for them. Yeah, and when you actually look at their life, not that there hasn't been battles and struggles along the way, but they're feeling pretty safe. And if it rains or doesn't rain, they don't lose any of that. You know, and they know they can put food on the table. And if the worst they do is have to pay a bit more for it because cost of living's going up, a bit more for power, it doesn't threaten those bottom planks of that hierarchy of needs. So what ends up happening is you know, they've accomplished a lot, they're confident, they're they're full of self-worth, and they're trying to give back in their way. So we're up in that top little um triangle there where you know, when it comes down to things that, you know, certainly my irrigator friends here get threatened by um government buybacks, you know, taking the water away and the ability to grow the food. And yet people in the city like my my friends, they they see that as you know, helping the environment. And they see, you know, and and and arguably, I I won't talk because I don't they don't know who I'm talking about here, but um, you know, they potentially see things like wind turbines and solar farms as being good for the environment, you less mining, less, you know, all the call it the um the the reason for wanting it. You know, the reason I have solar on my house is I don't want to pay, I want batteries and I want solar and I'm but I also like to feel good that I'm you know not draining anything and I'm looking after myself, you know. That is a sense of feeling. And um, so I suppose we all, when we're in that safe environment, that's what we want. So we make that what we talk about and look at and our goals. But of course, when we've got other people in the community that are sitting there living, you know, threatened, you know, down to the core of everything they have, then you've got different viewpoints and you've got different political parties that look at. And one of the things I noticed, and I'd love to see the detailed stats, is when they came out with the voice referendum. And uh, you know, if you had uh the statistics, and there were a bit about it, but if you had the stats on older and younger people or regional versus city people and so on, you know, my my gut feel when I'm pretty confident about it, is that most of the people that voted yes would have been living their life in that top top quadrant where you know that they would see that as something good. Some of the ones that voted no were potentially saying that's the least of my worries. It wasn't even an indigenous argument. It was just like, hang on a minute, you know, how about we concentrate on stuff that puts food on the table and educates my kids? You know, so I I look at all that and I don't I try to keep the right and wrong out of it and the and the black and white out of it, and I just look at it and say, when you understand where people are coming from and when they're trying to communicate together and they're coming from different angles or whatever, you know, to understand that side of things is you know, is is a core to a lot of you know what I call behaviour, obviously mindsets, your belief systems are are built around how you feel about yourself and so on and so on. So that's just a broad brush, I suppose, summary of all that. Just in the just sorry, quickly back to again a couple of learnings lately that I find interesting, just back to the way the brain works too, is dopamine. You know, again, my understanding of dopamine, you know, dopamine hits is you know, that's really a lot of addictive behaviours come from that. You know, you're feeling good. How do you feel good? Um, you know, at the end of the day, some people it's it's binge eating or you know, whatever, it might be alcohol or it might be smoking or whatever. What makes you feel good? And where did that come from, that feeling of good? And why do you chase it? And you know, yeah, I was a um heavy smoker in my youth, and I can tell you categorically that when I was forming the habit of smoking, it was cool to smoke, and I really wanted to belong and be included during high school, so I wanted to be cool in the day in the 80s as you were, and um, so yeah, smoking and being good at it nearly made me feel safe and made me feel like I was belonging. So when I would smoke later in life, no matter how bad I knew it was for me, you know, at the end of the day, it's actually the dopamine hit of feeling good about myself that I was chasing, not the nicotine or the or the chemicals involved. So, you know, this goes for a lot of things. You know, when people that chase the alcohol or whatever they chase as a feel-good, it's actually the feel-good. It's not necessary thing, it's just their mental attachment to it. So I and and there's another, there's another uh chemical, again, I'm I'm out of my field here, but serotonin. And um I call serotonin Pink Floyd because if I ever want to, uh my variation of media uh meditation is to put um Pink Floyd on and uh and listen for about um 40 minutes and uh get chilled. I feel like I'm an LSD or something, which is serotonin, which is the opposite of dopamine, it's the chill factor and everything else. So so understanding what we crave and what we chase and how our brain works and the chemicals it releases at times and where we're at. So, of course, when you're pretty chilled and you're feeling okay and you haven't got worries and issues, that's when your serotonin, you know, releases and you're and you're you're you're you know, life's pretty good and you you don't get caught up. And the opposite of that is you know firing up with your amygdala's release and adrenaline and and pumping you up again. And keep in mind the body naturally, especially with um uh sorry, adrenaline and um yeah cortisol, the body naturally boosts big hits of cortisol when you wake up as a natural behaviour, like about that six, seven in the morning, and you actually get quite a decent hit for a few hours in the morning, natural release to get you going and set up your day, and then it wavers down over time. So, as people say, sometimes even mentally, not physically, you know, they're up and about in the morning and they're not as you know, they get a bit flat in the afternoon because you know they get worn out, but it's actually all about what's happening in your body anyway. So sorry put in caffeine instead.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

That's so so well that Maslow hierarchy, is it Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, is it? Yeah, we might Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. I'll put the link in the show notes so people can sort of find it something quickly.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah, and look, it's a backbone. My daughter studies psychology doing a rhinos at the moment, it's a backbone of lot a lot of the a lot they frame their learnings around as well. And anyone who wants to Google it, it's lots of different graphs and explanations.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So when you were sort of um learning all this stuff you did, you know, through through your many clients and things like that, did you draw back on this this hierarchy of needs, or was it something you found along the way?

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Well, I'm a I'm a bad one, uh Dwayne. Um I'm not a theorist studier. I've I've I I come I've come in this high. Didn't finish high school, all of that sort of stuff. Yeah, so I'm uh yeah, school of hard knocks. And what I what I've learned along the way, like there's a there's a thing um called or bed. I call it orbed, it's above or below the line. Again, another management tool, people can look it up. Or stands for ownership, accountability, responsibility, and bed stands for blame, excuses, denial. So the behavior above the line, you know, what are we doing about it? Own it, let's get on with it. Below the line, someone else's fault, you know, not my fault, you know, defence, all that. So I I lean on that a lot. So what happened is as I was observing behaviors, I built my own before I knew there was such a thing. And then mate said to me one day, he said, you know, there's actually a business tool that there. And so I go looking and there it is. And I've thought, hang on, I've just reinvented the wheel here. And Maso's high lucky needs and all these other things, the understanding. So what I've done is I spent my life up and certainly up until about late 40s, 50, I spent my life watching, observing, curious, you know, about behaviours, a lot of my own, understanding a lot of them are coming from not my, you know, I wasn't planning to do it, um, whatever I would do, and some terribly embarrassing stuff over the years. Um, and then trying to work out where they were coming from. Why were my behaviours? Where were the drivers and everything else like that? And then, you know, so as as I sort of get more curious and learn and whatever, and I start understanding some of this, I'm actually connecting all this to real life experience. Whereas I watch my daughter, that's all just theory. You know, she doesn't necessarily have that life experience. So she's now looking at people with that theory in behind it, and obviously learning quicker than I ever did because she's got the backbone and now she's connecting the dots. So so it's probably just a combination, and that's probably why I I come from my view on things based on my experience in depth. And is it a science? It is a well, this is where you get down to. It is a science, yeah. So what what I this gets down to the word control and everything. And I just want to get down, there's one key word in behind all this I'll touch on in a minute. But you know, the the desire to control, you know, it's um when we talk about science, if you are entering a situation, so again, no a quick example, no names again, three people in a car. Um, myself and two others were driving up in Queensland, we came across a horrible accident. First on the scene, young girl was killed. Um, three different reactions. One in there, pulled to get out of the car, did CPR. Next one, managed traffic, you know, controlled the crowd as they were building up. Third one, literally disappeared around the corner to get out of the way, and just went into lockdown and denial about anything there and wouldn't even talk about it. And you could look at that and you could put judgment on. And again, you can turn around and this, you know, who did what and wherever else. But at the end of the day, everyone reacted. So you can't sit there and say it wasn't controlled. Everyone did what they did, and um, and it's just what happens, and you you know, you you need everyone. Now, if that was a dangerous situation, that was a car about to blow up, the only person to tell the story was the one who was around the corner, and vice versa, you know. So you can go through this till the cows come home. What is heroic, whereas what is silly, and you know, all these sorts of things. So when we judge it, the truth is it's when you're talking about science, no, these chemicals made all that happen, you know, and and it's it's off the back. Now, I again, you know, people will say, is it genetics or is it part of your upbringing as to where these things get formed and whatever? And there's lots of science. I've delved into that heavily myself. Again, just a quick side story. I remember I was in the bank, logged into Adelaide at about 18, and for some reason I made this bold statement that the lead singer of the Who was Pete Townsend, and another bloke said, No, it was Roger Daltrey.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

And I knew that I didn't know, I didn't know which one it was. I knew that I was I didn't actually know, and I just spent the next half hour telling him he was wrong. And and sitting there knowing damn well that I'm making an argument, I've got no idea whether I'm right or not, because it was more important to be right than it was the facts. So, of course, even when I was young, I'd I'd I'd leave that situation in the middle to calm down. Why did it fire up? Why did I feel the need to be right? And I'm sitting there with no answers and haven't had for years, you know, to understand where I was coming from, why I felt those needs. So, so again, we turn around and say, This is the body, you know, you can try and control whatever you like. But when you're poked, triggered, fired up, when you're you know pushing back and all the rest of it, you're not actually in control. You're your your defense mechanisms are up or your your attack, you know, your medulla's fired. So so the the truth is that's the science part of it, the chemical part of it, and you don't you get to use this. You you again you think about it, if that frontal portion of your brain is shut down, then you're you're not in control. There's no way you're in control, you're actually reacting to your primitive brain, your back brain.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

So that that uh car accident example is a you know, it's that that would be how you would see with your farmer clients all react differently. So no two reaction would be the same or mindset would be the same, would they?

SPEAKER_03 25:03

No, and what you know, I'm I'm sure people are thinking this. Well, I I do, and I just say it as I think it, and it's very unfair. But a, you know, I talked about a um an inner city left-leaning vegan versus a good hard country uh bloke farmer, you know, blah, blah, blah. All of this. And of course, what would happen is every, you know, 60-year-old good hardcore farmer would believe that they would be the ones that would go in and react in a you know heroic way. And even um one of your articles recently, the Bloke from the Plane, um, you know, how he reacted. Now, that's how he reacted. And I I say it's no surprise he was a you know, a a farmer and a businessman and you know, all the rest of it. And then, but I also turn around and say, you know, my daughters wouldn't have run in and done that.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

No.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

My daughters wouldn't have necessarily run, you know, got out the way or whatever. But who knows? Because they are in a different mindset, they're in a different, you know, I'm not picking on them, but they're they're they see the world differently to what I do, and they're in a different stage of life and everything else. So there's no judgment, and they're what their amygdala told them to do, they've been raised in a probably a safer environment than than me or older people than me. So again, we get back to this safety bit again. Um, so that's the other word, just to sort of finish off that bit. Fear. The the one thing I say this to every listener, if you look at every reaction, everything that happens around you, the truth is if someone gets into the fear spot, if they've said something, so this is when I say, if I say something that triggers you, then not always, but often it might be a fear. Because if you're threatened with safety, and then we we say this all the time, there are some people who say, I love change. I I will argue that. No, your brain doesn't allow you to change and love it naturally because it's uh argue, you know, you think about primitive primitive times. You know, if you if you lost your protection of your family unit or your community unit and your food and your safety, and you're out in your own, you were turfed out of the tribe, my God, you're vulnerable and you're basically a death sentence. So the truth is you need to be, we all do it in our teenage years, we all chase acceptance, we change our herd, as they say, from our parents over to our mates and so on, and then future partners, all of this. So this safety that we need, change threatens it as a natural reaction, and then the ability to work through that and understand that change can be good. Well, that's a process. And the amygdala and the immediate reaction on change is, well, it's a threat. So we go down to this fear all the time, and headlines, you know, news stories, you know, um clickbait, whatever you want to talk, so many of them are laced by fear. I I don't know how many times a simple storm is now a rain bomb when it's uh announced by the media. I I'm I'm trying to work out what a rain bomb is still, but I'm sure there'll be uh typhoons and hurricanes next when there uh a little front coming through. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

So when we get situations like we're in at the moment, there's a lot of stuff in the news, you know. Farmers are, you know, we know the situations there up against at the moment with fuel and and fertilizer and lots of other things too. That that's a fear type thing, isn't it? That's that's front of mind. And that does that mean you gravitate towards those sort of negative headlines or you try and retreat from them, or is that different to any every every person?

SPEAKER_03 28:15

Well, everyone's different, don't get me wrong, but when you think about it, so you think about this, if all of a sudden, you know, as we know, fert and fuel was threatened, and certainly cost more. So, of course, are you getting a dopamine hit and feeling smug because you've actually got all your fert for the year? Or and and you know, that's real if you do, because then you haven't got the fear, at least not for the next year. Or got an easy outfit. Yeah, how far forward do you act and think? And if you have or you haven't, and then you get down to the what do you do about it? And so, of course, this is a different reaction where you know, do people put a negative slant on the price or do they put it on the availability? Because as we saw, even when deliveries were affected with urea and fertilizer in COVID times with the shipping, um, you know, what was the price argument for everyone all the time suddenly became I don't care what I pay, I actually need it. And we've all done that, you know, and we've just uh they're just open water restrictions today in the in the basin coming up because we're getting a bit dry, and we don't know where that'll end, you know, better, worse or whatever. But that's an installation of fear. Now, it is a fear, but then we go back to how do you control it? And do you control it? Or what do you control? The ability to be to get back to be at peace and settle that amygdala down, that's the key. So what do you do about it? So if you're running around trying to find foot and a truckie to I, you know, again, all the compassion in the world for those that are doing that, that are, you know, are chasing it, but at the same time, that's when the amygdala's fired up, and that's when you might behave, you know, differently or maybe badly because of the pressure and the fear you're feeling. And then someone else might be, you know, they sort it out or they just put their mind at ease to say, well, it'll be what it'll be. I've got an order, it's on a ship. If it hits me or it doesn't hit me, and whatever price, that'll be what it'll be. If they can, you know, settle down. Like I said, if they're operating higher in that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and they're not as fear-based about it, it makes it easier.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

So a bit of advice for per a person that's you know going through fear at the moment is is do you seek out people that are you know different to them as in calm people or something like that, just to give them a bit of a bit of equilibrium? Equilibrium.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Well, this is yeah, and this is um this is my learning, Duane, is and I'll just use my experiences. I I was get got to around that age of 50, and maybe it was a bit of maturity. I'll I'll get this answers the question a long way. Uh bit of maturity or just whatever. But one thing I've whether I'm lucky or whatever, I am curious and um and I like to understand things and drill down underneath them, and all the whys. That's a you know really important word. Why? Why does someone do what they do? You know, especially if someone's obnoxious, then you know they're not trying to be obnoxious. They're not actually trying, but why do they come across as and if you can put yourself in their shoes, genuinely you see it. So I'm acting poorly. There are things I'm doing, and I'm not liking what I'm doing. But I went through a period of getting the hacks, so it's like you said, okay, I'm fearful, I'm nervous, what do I do? Find some happy, jolly people to surround myself with. Some people will say, so that's a hack. And it's uh it's a conscious action with the front brain to deal with what your back brain's actually just doing on its own accord that you don't control. And this is so I I talk about, for instance, my sister without throwing her under the bus, you know, she's in the United Nations in New York and high-powered and lots of rankings and all that sort of thing. And what she deals with on a daily basis, and the stuff with their missions in places like Lebanon and so on and so on, you know, and what she sees and hears and what she has to manage, you know, she can't have her amygdala take off, and she can't have her emotions and feelings override. She's got a job to do. She's a true leader and she has to lead. So the first thing, well, her whole life, what she's learnt to do, is she's learnt to manage the situation, you know, she's learnt to hold all that back, suppress all that, because she's got to be in control and she's got to manage on behalf of you know, a big base out there. So, and that's all great.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Except she still has the same brain in behind there that we all have that is emotional at times and is reactionary at times or whatever. She's just done a fantastic job of uh managing that and and providing a great service to all of us because of it. So then you turn around and say, we could find a hack, surround with happy people. But the truth is, or what my learnings were is, and and and I started seeing a life coach eight years ago to start understanding more about myself. Because what I actually said is I'd like to understand why it even happens, and I'd rather not have the reaction in the first place. And of course, that gets back to how you feel about yourself. So if you feel threatened, if you're jealous, if you're this, if it's competition, you know, I was the most competitive person going around. I lost that edge, sadly, in some cases. Um but the the you know, it becomes a change. One of the things I talk about there is gray areas. You know, I I I notice some people do this as a hack. They don't use the word, you know, I say to some people and they say, How are you going? And most people say good. Some people say well. And the people that say well are often people, because I know them well enough, uh, people that don't like to hook into that good and bad, you know, because to them it's like black and white. And uh, and I would argue well, unwell, but their argument about well is you know, they're in a good place, you know, and um and not try and define it as black and white. And that's the thing I've always been when I say bad at, not at all. I'd take really strong positions on stuff, I'd have a really fixed mindset, you know, what's good, what's bad, and I'd hold the ground, there'd be integrity in that, and it'd be, you know, I'd be really resilient, all these sorts of things. But the truth is it's very hardcore, you know, and um, and and there is grey areas and everything, and I've learnt to accept that, and that way I can listen to another person's argument, you know, better than I used to be able to, instead of just fighting my own cause all the time. And you know, it's made me uh easier to deal with, I'm told by some. Um my family support me at least. Um, and uh and so I suppose that's my mantra is you know, why am I doing all this? Well, I I haven't early on, I just didn't like some of my behaviours. I still, still, they still come out, you know, but I'm learning and understanding more about why they're coming out, where they come from, and everything else, and therefore I'm hopefully trying to be a better person, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

I just want to go back a bit, like you mentioned about Barry Clark, and that was in one of our podcasts we did just recently about uh when he was on a jet star flight and he tackled a potential terrorist, and he was going through the process of you know, trying to work out who this guy was and what he was doing there, because it all looked a bit but he was calm all the way through, and you you sometimes you see people that are very calm in a crisis and they just go through the process and they work it out. You obviously had to work it out really quickly. Do you see those sorts of people and what's going on? What's going on in that situation?

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Well, that's um that's what I call basically um I I your definition of leadership sits inside of that. The person who can, I suppose, get that right balance, and again, we this isn't something you just go and do. It's not like um go and go and run around the block three times and you've got it. You know, it doesn't work like that. Um, but he's obviously got that really what I call a really good balance. There was enough management or understanding the amygdala was fire and there was adrenaline, but that didn't mean he just ran in there because he didn't know the situation. But he had enough, he was using it, yeah. What he didn't allow the adrenaline to do when he was suspicious about stuff, he worked his way through it using enough of his front brain and enough of his back brain and using the combined powers and did a magnificent job. And of course, magnificent in hindsight because nothing went wrong, and um and all of that, but he did it, you know, and and whereas there's other people that wouldn't have even noticed because they wouldn't have had the awareness.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

That's right. Well he he said that a guy that was sitting next to him didn't really know what was going on, he was just his phone and all this commotion's going on.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

So, and you can't, this is this is what I say, you can't tell people what they don't know, or you can't ask them to act on what they don't know. So you go down to this awareness. So awareness is everything, you know, this is the whole thing. How aware are any of us? And if we're in our infra uncomment, and so even the story behind Barry Clark that you were talking about as to where he's been and what he does and how he goes about it, you can see there's a hell of a lot of front brain happening there, logic, common sense, conscious decision making, and even when uh some of your feedback, just talking about in news those domains, some of your feedback. I also say that there's still passion, you know, there's still passion in what he's doing, just because it's not all hooked up with one, you know, third, fourth generation property that a lot of people have passion about, there's still passion in everything he's doing. So what we're saying here is he doesn't not love it. You know, you you think about my business in RLS. What what do I have passion about in there? I don't have a farm there, I don't have history there, I started it, I finished it, you know what I mean? But I've still got passion for it, just because it's not the same thing. So, but I I run it with my front brain. So this is the whole point. There's that you can you can when you understand it all, something can be limiting and there's always maybe a middle ground. That's that's the way I see it all.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

And um like with your clients, have you got some great examples of fixed mindsets that's um that you know, some that you may have switch you know, changed and others you you just they're beyond change. Have you got any good examples or a couple of stories around that?

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Well thousands um that's the other thing with this subject, especially when we get going, yeah, we could be here in ten hours if we want to.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

But it's sort of one unpack, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

A lot of things the simple these these are the boxes people fit into, um, I call it, and remember, I'm part of these boxes. This isn't a judgment, this is an observation. Yep. Some of the uh some of the generational farmers I do with, and I'm gonna be specific here and say often males, you know, mid-50s or higher, 60 or onwards, um, generational, often with uh family still around. So you think about the if if any listeners are in that box, whether they know it or not, there is a um sense of obligation most of them carry because they've inherited it, you know, and there's a sense and and some apply a very high weighting to that and they want to still do it the way dad and grandpa did it. And there's also some that just have the obligation to want to succeed and perform and and be in in the eyes of their parents. So there's that part of it that other people don't have. So when someone like Barry, even me and my business, you know, I I don't get emotionally attached to cars or whatever, you know what I mean, at the end of the brand or whatever, it's it's functional and I like it, but I uh I don't it doesn't impact on my decision making around it. So I can understand where it does with that obligation. Then there's you spend your life on it. So when we're talking about a farm, you spend your life on it. So what happens is the minute I threaten some of those core beliefs and those core values, and and all of them is so a farmer comes in and sits down, so what are we and normally dragged in by his wife and says, So what are we talking about, Jeff? And if I said anything that resembled, can we talk about a better way to do something? Straight away, the arms are crossed. What you're saying I'm not doing it well enough?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

So straight into defense, you know, why why the need defense? You know, why not let's just have a chat about improvement? We can all improve, I can improve, you can improve, Duane. Exactly. But we're talking about his ability to accept that he's not he can improve. So that's your perfectionism. That's your and that's I see that. That was me 100%. You know, you know, was anything ever good enough? And can I say, if that's been drilled into by my father, you it's it was a lot harder being drilled into by my grandfather into him, and so on and so on. So when you get there's words that people use like people that come from scarcity in particular, so you know, soldier settlers in our area three, you know, three generations back, they turned up with nothing. And uh they lived in tin sheds, nissing huts, everything. Oh, everything, yeah, and just just happy to be able to put food on the table, rabbits, rabbits and fish, if you're a good enough fisherman and rabbit chaser. So, yeah, and again, we talk about these stories and laugh about them, but that was my father's childhood. And so when I look at my childhood, geez, I was privileged, but then I look at my kids and I say, My God, you got it easy. We all do it, and that's what we want, isn't it? We want to produce a better sense. So we live with less fear. My kids have less fear than I had, I had less than my father, and so this is everywhere. So when we have this less fear and we don't feel we're judged and all of that, we can act freer. So that's what I see in this fixed mindset is I think so. The way I say it to people is I uh and and it's yeah, they don't listen if they're shut down, you know, if they're defensive or whatever, they don't listen. So I've got to generate the conversations that they can hear, and that's the tricky bit. So once you're aware of where someone's at and how they feel about themselves and what they push back on and everything, you know, to be the ability to share information, and that's why I think discussions like this are good, because it's not one-on-one, and people don't take it as a direct comment. But what I notice, people stick, their fixed mindsets are always about what served them well.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

That's it. If it didn't serve you well, you wouldn't lock it in. Now, if it was ingrained into you by your parents as something that's important and you stop you haven't questioned it ever and explored it, well, same thing, because it served your parents well and it was important, so they engroded into you. So at the end of the day, we're talking about what makes us feel safe. And and to be uh completely honest with you, Duane, there's things that are happening in and around finance and and and things in the world today that I am, like everyone, I'm turning into my father. So things that I hold dear and safe to me that I've never had to worry about because they're fit today's world, suddenly I'm realising they're they're 10 years ago, they're 20 years ago. And I'm turning into that same person. The world's changed.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

We spoke about it in the last um podcast about equity and how you know it's very dear to people, and all of a sudden that's sort of been channelled away a little bit with the new banking laws.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Well, you can imagine. So again, rather than go through all the stories, you can imagine a farmer turning up saying, Oh, well, I just borrowed some more, I've got the equity. How much do the banks lend on equity, Jeff? And I say, Well, they don't lend on equity, that's a part of it, but they need to see you can repay your debt. And of course, they might have made losses for five years because they don't see that as a priority. And of course, the minute I tell them that the access to money is not how they sell it. Yeah, or I say to them it's not about you, um, the customer, it's actually about pleasing APRA and the laws and responsible lending laws and bank policy. That's you know, it's not personal, then how do you deal with that? If you suddenly you're threatened, you feel vulnerable, and you thought you had it under control because you had equity, and and especially as we're seeing now, you know, valuations in certain areas are coming back, you know, um, sales, average sales and comparable sales are coming back. So banks are suddenly looking at equity, you know, maybe drop 10% or something like that. And and in some industries, like wine grapes, drop a thousand percent, you know. And how do you feel when you when you know that your borrowing ability has just disappeared because of the industry factors and everything else? So this is this Maslow's Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or Maslow, should I say, um, that bottom safety bit. You know, the safety gets threatened by so many things when you're on the land and working, and even directly, like employment directly relative to it. So the farmers' reactions, of course, the older farmers that relied on the loan to valuation ratio, they relied on um access to finance, and the deal was you just bought the land and you in time it increased in value, and that allowed you to cover the bad years, and you put enough food on the table. Really, the truth was you didn't make a lot of money, you weren't concentrating on making money, it was a lifestyle that was providing for the next generation, and it did everyone good. Community people. And now we've got all these new laws and we've got all this compliance, workhouse safety, and we've got a cost base around our overheads with insurances and everything else coming out our ears. Oh, of course we're threatened. And the the truth is with that new cost base and then the threat on the suppliers and the cost of the supply. You know, suddenly farmers in our area now, they're saying we need a desolate rainfall year, you know, to cover this year's costs. And so we we sit there and say, is there a new norm? Is it going to automatically be wetter because our costs went up? No. But is there going to be grain price increase? You know, so again, we can be positive, we can be negative, we can manage the risk, we can do it, we can make balanced judgment assumptions. And and probably just to spin off of that, too, is when I'm talking to people that are struggling with their fear and they struggle to listen, they try to struggle to engage, the truth is they're still talking to me for a reason. They're still got things they need to manage and deal with. So at some point, you might need to, and this is a grape grower story over the last few years that it's just got tighter and tighter. And I'll rattle a few cages and people will just push back on me, you know, and they'll tell me I'm wrong. You know, they'll they'll ask me what Schraz are going to be, and I'll say, I don't think we're gonna sell them. And uh that's not what they want to hear. So they push back on me, they tell me they're wrong, they swear at me, and they go away and they sit with it, and that's what happens. So it's real, and at some point they act. At some point the amygdala settles down, they stopped arguing that Pete Townsend's the lead singer of the Who, and they turn around instead and they say, you know what, no matter how much I feel like I've failed or anything else, I do have to preserve what I've got and I have to look after my family, and you make a decision. So, as hard as it is, some point you've got to get off that, you know, that step that you're on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

And as and like in farming families and intergenerational farmers, where you're working sort of closely with your parents, you've been taught everything by your parents, you know, how to how to farm and things like that, and you have to work with them over the years. Is that sort of a disadvantage and puts a lot more pressure on siblings rather than rather than a sibling that's gone off and done their own thing and learnt life, how to how to um manage their own lives? Is that a disadvantage of your finding?

SPEAKER_03 46:00

I I yeah, look, there's good and bad, you know. Um and this is the thing, gray areas. Um, so I don't put it in a box. One one thing I see fathers-sons that work together, you know, and and my crew in my school days, nearly everyone just went back on the farm and the and the block at 15 or 16 and they worked with their fathers for 30 years, and and uh, and then there's less of that these days, depending on the viability of the farm. Or, and some of the ones that are viable are bigger, and it's not just the father-son. So, good and bad, you know, you could look at those relationships, so they're pretty good, and you know each other inside out. But there's a little bit of uh truth in the fact that everyone just wants to be heard, you know, and this is where those relationships can break down, where dad dad wants to provide until my father turns up every year to show me how to prune the fruit trees that I've got in my backyard. I know how to prune fruit trees, but that's not what happens because he has this has been his life work. He was an irrigator, he had fruit trees, he knows how to prune them. So every year he shows me and explains to me the different, you know, the nectarine versus the plum that you prune them differently and whatever, and I go, Yeah, that's great, that's great. And he gets his dopamine hit and his sense of fulfilment as a father. And I play the dutiful son, and and of course, I'd used to push back on him and say, I know what I'm doing, Dad. Well, that's not what he wants to hear. So there's a lot of that happens with father-sons. The son wants to be um acknowledged and felt proud of, and you know, step up and whatever, and they don't, you know, the hard, crusty old farmer doesn't give away too many pats on the back. And yeah, this is very stereotypical, of course, I'm talking about here, and there's lots of variations. So, so we talk about good and bad, but you know, it also builds a depth and a uh resilience and a few things along the way that continues through the chain. But all I would say, there is another world out there, and you end up being quite fixed in that mindset about what's right and wrong, and it passes down the generation, and then the sun echoes what the dad said, and the ability to learn and grow. So that's why I'm a big, big advert. Well, since podcasts has been a next level, but certainly the old ad groups and whatever, just mix with other farmers. And again, 20 years ago, they wouldn't they wouldn't ask the farmer what they're doing because that'll be vulnerable, it'd be as if they didn't know what they're doing themselves. And now they share now they share. Everyone shares a lot more. And uh you know, you watch on on X as you print in your you know, someone will put something out there, and plenty of people are happy to share their opinion. They're all just opinions, and we all learn, we all get to sit back and read it and understand. And that's that's what I like about this world. We've just got to change that behaviour to say you don't have to be right, you don't have to know it all.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Do you ever come across some like a mindset, a person that's you know, got it all under control and you know, you've got a clear head and things like that. Do you ever come across them in your line of business? Yep, I do.

unknown 48:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

And are they faking something or hiding something behind that? No.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

No. There are people that I come across. I I I I pick them pretty quickly. These are the uh things that I pick. Firstly, no need, they're you can't put them in a box of an extrovert or an introvert. So they don't need to come in and dominate the room early on, and they don't sit there and say nothing. You know, middle ground again. And when they talk, they talk with assurance, they're they talk with a knowing. Um, there's all the it's like the vibe, you know, they've got a vibe. They're a safe place, uh, they're under control because they know where they fit in the world, they don't feel the need to prove to anyone, and they're they know what they're doing and they have belief in what they're doing, they don't feel the need to argue, you know, they present information or share information, and they're not interested whether you think they're right or wrong. They're actually there to help and provide pass that information on. So their issue is most of us who want to come in it from our point of view and make it all about us and what we think about it and throw judgment and everything else. Um, and so to sit down and have a rational conversation about it, too many of us have the amygdala fired up because we might not like it or it threatens us or this or that. So, yes, I come across, not many, but I come across people, and they're they're often true leaders. And there's a there's a saying, and um I I hear it often and I I absolutely understand it. The people who don't want the power, the people who don't want the control, they all have it.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

They actually have it at the end of the day. You know, they don't chase it, they don't aspire to it, therefore they don't have a need for it. They enter into discussions, you know, without a need for it, and therefore they have it.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

And do you think that's a learnt behavior or something that just comes natural to those guys, or they're very curious and they just work things out like you you've worked things out over a period of time. It might have, you know, you said you it might have taken you a long time, but it does it come natural to these people, or is it something that they, you know, obviously you're learning things as you go along?

SPEAKER_03 50:36

So, purely personal point of view, yep, they're the people I aspire to be.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Um, and I again I don't want the power. In fact, I don't I nearly don't even want any responsibility that goes with that. Yeah, but what happens is you end up, you don't realize, and I have situations like this in my industry, the stuff I've spent my life in and know well. I've you know, whatever I suggest might be a good idea is actually verbatim by people around me. And that's call that a power, call that a um a great, you know, whatever skill or whatever. And where does that come from? Well, it comes from not having to have it happen, not having to force it on people. And so I'm probably in the twilight of my years in work, and therefore I don't have this desire, and I used to want to be heard all the time. I just, you know, hey, you're not listening to me, and I push myself on people and be irritating, and um, and they're saying, but I want to be heard, or I'm not interested in what you're saying, or whatever, and I'm just not listening because I'm pushing now, you know, what it is, what it is, and I've learnt how to put something out there, and if people don't understand it or it's not real for them today, you wait until it is, and then just be ready to help the nets. How far am I advanced? I don't know, I'm better than I was yesterday, and I hope I'm better tomorrow. When do who do I put myself up against? No one in particular, but I just try and aim for what good looks like, and I suppose I go back to that ownership thing. I own it. You know, if I behave in a certain way, I try and understand why I did that, why I reacted in the way I did. And uh and that's the ability to look at myself and not not protect myself.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

When I was back doing farm tender sales many moons ago, and you'd ring lots of people and you'd come across those gruff farmers, you know, they might be in their 60s or 70s, and they wouldn't give you hello hello, they'd go, just grunt at you, and um, you know, you had this mindset that you had to you know do some work with these guys because it was going to take a lot of work to cut through to try and cut through to them, but over time you could and they turned into different people once they got to know you. Do you see people changing, you know, that you've not just see views change, but that you know, your people that have become your clients have changed over the years with their mindset things?

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yep. So what we're talking about there is I I I taught that as a protective tactic. So you're selling something and you've rung a farmer and you're selling something. What do you? I know what I'd do if I was a farmer. The first thing I do is I put my protective wall up because I want to understand it, and you're not gonna sell because you uh do. So as you know, and we talk about this all the time, you've got to build trust, you've got to um build a relationship there, and you've got to uh be open and free. So the way I put it, and and do they do those same farmers, why do they put those walls up? Because too many people barge in with what they want from that farmer. Yes, and a farmer, more than anyone in the world, is the one they get sold to all the time. Everyone drives up their driveway or rings them up and they want something from the farmer. They want to make money out of it. There's so many of us, you and me, we make money off of farmers. In fact, the whole world makes money off of anyone whose GDP, I call it far, you know, construction, mining, farming, um, any, any, anything that actually adds to the economy, everyone else feeds off it. So the answer to that mindset bit is yeah, protective behaviours. How do you get through it? You build trust. How do you build trust? Well, you don't have a need. You don't make it about you. You actually make it about the farmers' needs. You know, I I say to farmers sometimes when they really want to have an opportunity on a couple of bits of land around them, I say, go and have a conversation. Oh no, you don't walk in and say, I want to buy your land, that's not very nice. And I say, I didn't say that. I said, go and have a conversation. Let's talk about the conversation. Those people might be looking for an out. Those people might have a health condition and they don't know what to do. And if you are genuinely going in as an offer for them to help their exit, price we'll talk about later. But if you're genuinely putting on the table that you're there if and when they need you, just do that and don't push and don't go in with an agenda that you want something out of it, and then be nice and wait. And it's amazing how many wins come out of that.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Well, we had a great example of that. I was talking to a guy last week and I wrote about it, how he went to that um uh conference we did in the Glendamar wool shed, and um I think it was Danny Thomas who was speaking about how to go and approach a you know neighbouring farmer, and he he took that away and and worked worked at it for over two years, not pushing, like you said, being respectful and things like that. And he rang the other day and he said he bought bought the um the neighbour's farm. So, you know, it took two years, but he was determined to do it and he went about the right way.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

Yep. Well, I uh with a lot of my clients we do what we call the tour of duty. We identify the general area we're looking at, we understand who owns what, um, who's leasing what, you know, that best we can. Throw grandpa in the car, they know everything, and um, and all the history of every bit of dirt. So they get a dossier on who's around them, and then I get them to give me their top five, minimum top five, which is, and then we talk through them and we understand who they are. And straight away you get this fixed mindset. Oh, yeah, young couple having a real crack, no chance there. And my answer is always, well, they could have a health issue, they could drop dead, whatever. You know, and when you got I had one, Auntie Helen had the best bit of land in the area right next door, and they'd had some fallout 30 years ago, and she literally put a caveat in there to basically say and made sure all the kids understood, never to sell to my client. And I turned around and said, you know, when Auntie Helen drops off and the kids just want the money, and if you're prepared to pay the most, then they'll take the money. And so you can't, you don't say can't, because everything's an opportunity, but understanding where they fit in your priority order, and then let me tell you what happens. Dwayne, the same as this guy that wrote in, he has a gentle comment, you know, suddenly number four on the list. Who are they? Oh, they're Fred, you know, I'll see him next week at the sports day. Well, have a chat. Not can I buy you land, just have a chat, and suddenly people have got a different focus instead of sitting there waiting for something to turn up, and of course, next thing it's a private sale and they didn't even know it's been sold and they've lost the opportunity, they're having a chat, and and so they get lucky because they're having that work. So your customer perfect, that you know, your client that you said there is perfect. Just have the discussion, do something about it, own it.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

And the same guy I was talking to said he'd given up things like mainstream media and all that because it was getting to him, the negativity. Do you see a lot of that where you know we live in this world where you can't escape those things these days? Do you see a lot of those sort of things that really affect people's um mindset for the for the worse?

SPEAKER_03 57:03

Absolutely, and again, similar to what I said earlier, I love it, except it is only a hack. The hack is to prevent it. Well, you can't prevent it forever, and you go to a Barbie and someone says, Oh, yeah, see what Trump's done, and everyone and suddenly you got it anyway. You know, whatever you want or don't, you can't actually keep it out. It's actually about understanding. My my thing I talk about is I go up north with the boys every year, and back in the day, I'd I'd take my phone with me, and we don't have sex.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

You're about to leave.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

I am tomorrow. I am, that's why I'm excited. Um but we get out we get out of range a lot, and when we get in range, I'd I'd I'd have a look at all my emails, and then that would just completely sour my mood on all this shit that's waiting for me when I get back. So I actually developed the hack where a couple of trips I didn't take the phone.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Now I take the phone and I because my mindset's different. Oh, it doesn't matter what's in the email, it doesn't affect me. So the people that are cutting out mainstream media, my question is what buttons is it pushing? Why is it creating fear or whatever it's creating? And how do they work on that? How do they drill down and understand what's happening to them to actually make themselves stronger to not be affected? And and I I just I'll say this to you, and and and again, this might push the buttons of your listeners. When I listen to everything that's going on with Iran and Trump and you know, Lebanon and anything anywhere in the world like this, especially since I feel fairly safe in Australia as a general for my own well-being and my family's, everything's an observation to me. I've got to the point where it's not about feelings. Um, so when you think about fear, fear is a feeling. When you think about whether you like it or not, they're all feelings. So when I actually look at it and say, now what would happen? So again, just my words, you know. So all of a sudden there's payoffs to Iran for certain ships to get through Allah, China or whatever to get their oil. So what does Trump do? Well, he goes and puts a blockade because if he can't get it, no one gets it. Or whatever the argument is there. But then I turn around and I sit here and I honestly say, What's next? Where's this going to play out? What's the peace thought's gonna be? Who's gonna fold? Who's what's the image of there? And all while this is happening, Israel's turned around and said, Hey, why everyone's looking over there? I'm just gonna take southern Lebanon back, and because it's mine, I own it, and I'll do whatever I want there. And and then, and and again we turn around and say, Is it theirs to take back? This is Taiwan and China argument. Whose is it, you know, and even uh Ukraine, you know, Russia says, Well, you we own you, you're us. You need you know, and you sit here and go, thousands of years of you know, back end here. It's not for us to say whether we like it or not or judge it. You know, it's actually I turn around and sit back if you can take the emotion and the fear and everything else out of it, and then what you do is you use this front part of your brain, you work out what does it mean to me? Am I going to be limited on fuel? Am I going to be limited on you know this? What if it goes on? What if it doesn't? The trouble is to have that conversation, the barric clerks of the world would have that easily. He already is. But there are people out there that can't because their amygdala fires up and blocks the front brain to think that because of the fear. And so when I say to people, what happens if this, what happens if that? Well, some of the answers to that is catastrophic. I say, what happens if you drop dead? Who's going to run the farm? And we talk about scenarios like that. Well, you know, often I get blanked out at that because that's just too fearful. So by everyone. But at the end of the day, you know, you they they're all real, and you know, if you can talk about it without the feelings involved, you know, it is what it is. If you know what I mean. So getting back to your comment about media, um, it's all about how you take it and all about how much you think. And I I think half it's a joke, you know, I don't mean to be rude, half it's design. I I actually laugh sometimes and say, you know, like the rain bomb, you know, and laugh at the headlines they come up and say, Oh, really? Is that the new one that we're gonna get? You know, how how many hooks do they get?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

I I consume a lot of media and you know, go looking for bits. I have to go looking for good bits um each day. And I just turn off to the if I see a headline I'll just drift past to the next one. I won't even read it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

So um and the danger, yeah, the danger, Duane, and you know, you've covered it lots, is you know, we used to rely heavily on you know ABC or certainly landline, things like this, and four corners, you know, four corners versus a current affair, you know, we'd have different slants on that. And now we sit there and say we don't even know it's real, don't matter who it is. So I I find that as an old timer, I find that a bit disappointing. My daughter would turn around and say, Hey, just give me all the data and I'll soon disseminate it, and I'll I'm you know, at the end of the day, I'm not caught up in you know what it means.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

How how do we like how do we have those better conversations where we're being more constructive, you know, you know, we we cut through all that you know tit for tat, like, oh you know, how you go on the weather and all this sort of stuff, the small talk. How do we have better conversations so that we can I don't know, it's it's a tricky one, is it? We we shouldn't be business all the time, should we? But how do we have those better, more positive conversations?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:48

Well, I I say this to Duane and every listener is if you wanted to have a better conversation, yeah, what would you do about it? Yeah, you. You can't control the other person. How would you try and create it? So my answer is one word, listening. Stop talking. Ask questions, ask more questions, go in with the wise, understand. So when you say to someone how are you going, what are you saying? Are you actually asking how they're going? What if they reeled out and said, I've just been diagnosed with cancer drain? Oh, no one does that. They say, Yeah, fine, how are you? And what I'm saying is, and so we in in in our work, we've my staff get sick of this, you know. Let's talk about listening, let's talk about the depth of listening. Are you listening to reply? Only to reply. Are you taking the information for your advantage? Are you sucking them dry, sort of thing? Are you well, what is the nature of this conversation that you're having anyway? Are you waiting your turn to talk? That's the social environment. You tell a story, I tell a story, you know, whatever. But what about true listening? You know, when are you true listening? So, you know, I I give examples of this and I say to my staff, should I fix my interest rate? And I say that to one of my staff, and the poor bugger turns around and gives me an answer, doesn't get it. And uh and they say, Oh yeah, you should because they're going up. Oh, is that the reason? Why don't you ask me why I asked the question? Oh, why'd you ask a question? Well, I'm scared they're gonna go up, so should I fix it? Are they gonna go up? Oh, well, I can't answer that. Okay, why don't you ask me another question? Yeah, why don't you understand why I'm asking? That's so if you uh this is all I say is that if you can, if you can stop making about yourself and your own needs and want to tell a story, which I struggle with, love telling stories, as you can tell. So if I'm sitting down with a new client, my mantra is I've got to be 45 minutes to two hours, however long it takes, I need to be listening to them. And if I'm talking, I'm either asking questions, genuine questions for the right reasons to understand more, or and I'm trying to understand how they feel about things and the mindset stuff, and or I'm only giving examples of stuff to give them some safety to talk at a more level. So it can't be me talking about me, and that's what we all do. We default to things, we we race the solutions. So you know, you're the salesman and you're bringing up the farmer, and within the first three minutes you said, Have I got the deal for you? You know, oh well, hang on a minute, how about you find out what I want? Yes, have you asked me what I want? You know, how about I just spec out exactly the tractor I want to buy in all the detail, and I don't I'm not interested in what you got in the lot, and then you go and find that for me, or something close, and then we'll talk. You know, so listen, understand, you know, listen to, understand, and that's when your good conversations come. And when you do that for a while, you really pick up on the intangible stuff, the nuances, the emotions. You know, it's straight away someone's talking about something they get a little bit emotional, or someone's taking a really strong, fixed mindset about it. You don't push back, encourage them to keep talking. And then you ask quietly, safely later, when they've been heard. So, what's the saying? No one cares what you know until they know that you care. So hear them, then they feel that you care. And I've had, sorry, I've had a I've just quickly had a crusty 78-year-old who knew it all and controlled everything with an iron fist, even though he was saying he didn't. It was very obvious he did. And even when I went to introduce myself, he gave me about 10 seconds before he shot me down and said, You need to sit down, son, and you need to hear my story. And uh and I I didn't take offense. I thought, how good's this? Two hours. When I say he didn't draw a breath, I just kept asking questions two hours. But what he did was he made some comments that I let him go, and after two hours when he was uh joyous because someone had listened to him, then I turned around and said, Hey, you said this, what do you say? You know, well, what would your call be? And I just pulled a couple of things out, give him total control, and then he landed the killer blows and he made some statements about what's going to happen with succession. And his kids nearly fell off their chair.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

Because I'd never heard that. Now I didn't know that, because when I left, after about four hours, I said to him, I don't reckon we got anywhere. And the kid said, Mate, that was the greatest conversation we've ever had, because he's made a statement. He'll honor that now. Within because absolutely he'll honor it, but you had to get him to say it, and they couldn't get him to say it. So I'm just saying, listen, understand, try and be about them, not about you, not pushing in, not what you can do for them, that'll come through.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

And I know a few people that um you have a conversation with they're always asking questions. Are those are they those sort of people that are listening and interested and things like that? Are the people we're talking about? And we have to look do we have to learn these types of things?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:15

Well, you can learn them or they can become I I say if you go in to a joint meeting with someone and you don't have an agenda, you have no agenda, so you don't have a need to pull it. If you have a need to take something out of it, you're gonna push that agenda subconsciously.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:29

If you actually go into the conversation and you just have an understanding, you go in genuinely wanting them to understand, all these questions, you don't need a script, all these questions come through because you actually want to know. And all you got to do, so when you say, when you're talking to someone who asks lots of questions like that, just be careful, they're not still annoying your IP. I'll be rude, my mother will never hear this, that I'll be rude. When you have a conversation with my mother, she's got a checklist, and what she's doing is trying to get things that she can tell all the friends what's going on in the world. Jeff said, Yes, and and the trouble is she then quotes you. Jeff said that what's happening in uh Lebanon at the moment is really bad, and Israel are really bad or something. Hang on a minute, mum, you're not quoting me on that stuff, yeah. And so I've got to be really careful when she's the big QA thing, as and she doesn't mean any harm, of course. She's she's actually proud of me and she wants to parrot me. But the truth is you you manage it based on who's asking. But the minute you've got someone who's genuine, you know, genuinely asking you, and and you know when they are, and they're genuinely interested in you. What I what I find, and and there's a lady I know around here that she used to give me awareness because I'd have a conversation with her for 20 minutes, and I realized that I know she didn't say a word, and I just got to talk about myself for 20 minutes, and she was genuinely interested, and I felt really good about myself, and then I'd feel all the guilt because I never asked her, I never had a chance. She was that that adept at making it about other people. Everyone felt good, everyone loved her, but no one stopped to say, How are you going? And she never offered that because she never made it about herself. And I say, There is a real quality person, but it's got to be someone that's prepared to go out and make it about everyone else, and we all sometimes have needs that that makes that hard as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Yeah, interesting. Um, do you see as farmers we hold things too tight? So we're obviously a fixed mindset there. And how how how important is it to hold the hold sort of these things we hold tight, learn to hold them loosely so that we can be a bit more adaptable and bit more open-minded about things?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:28

This is where we drill into the whys, and this is where it can be a slow process. Um, and so again, you know, to be respectful, because no judgment, you know, why does someone hold it close? And what happens is I'll go into some whys, and sometimes it doesn't take long, it's a few minutes in, and I'll say, I'm just interested. You said, you know, when someone says something black and white, well, obviously we're not going to do that because that's the wrong thing to do. And straight away my ears go up, oh, oh, wrong, is it? Now I'm I'm actually curious, you know. Oh, I'm just interested. Why would you say it's wrong? I've got people that wouldn't say it's wrong. Why would you say it wrong? And then they start explaining, and then I get the understanding it's just a mindset that's come from what served him well in the past or his father well or whatever else, and he's got this fixed mindset. And of course, very quickly, not to challenge him, I I'll I'll say to him very nicely, I'll say, Oh, well, you know, another view might be this and this and this, and I saw someone have a really good win on that. And then I'll leave it because he's going to defend and we'll move on. But I've signed a seed and I've given him permission that his own space later on, when he's not having to be, you know, under control and show me that he that he's under control, when he's when he's off in his own space, he might gently start questioning that belief. Now, if there's a reason to, because I've given him an example where it doesn't serve him to hold on to that, great, he'll he'll look at that and accept that. But if there's not, if he doesn't buy into the reason I say, he'll hold his belief. That's okay too.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

And where does something like resilience fit into all this?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:02

Um if you asked me ten years ago, Duane, uh, to describe myself, you know, and what I hold dear and what I put on a pedestal as being good, my top three or four would be integrity, resilience, and honesty.

unknown 1:10:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

Um I'll keep going, sorry, I'll ask that up.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:24

No, you're right. Yeah, no, and that's so those things I would put on a pedestal because that my upbringing was they're really important. And even in my I remember when I was in the bank, I got challenged by I I did this higher higher management potential program and I did an IQ test, and I came out very black and white, and I and and the quick story is this lady was asking me about honesty. I was 10 out of 10 on honesty. So my in my mind that meant I was 10 out of 10. That's like A plus, isn't it? And because it's a very black and white question about honest. And of course, she framed a scenario around, you know, someone's come to sack someone and you know it, and they weren't there, they're out of lunch when they come back. They asked you the direct question. Oh, I heard so-and-so's in town and he's sacking people. Has he looked for me? What are you gonna say? And I straight away said, Oh, no idea. Oh, so you lied, because you know damn well they're looking for him. And I said, But it's not my place to tell them. And she said, Exactly, so you lied. So get off this bloody 10 out of 10 honesty bit. You will frame the truth in for the right reason at any time. So stop being so bloody black and white and stop holding it. And that really hit home because I was lost. I did have didn't have an answer and I couldn't argue like I usually do. So the point I learned then is I had to start thinking about these grey areas and stop putting it. So getting back to the thing about resilience, resilience, I believe, this is my take on things. Resilience I held very high, really good. It's you know, as I've said to you before, give me a wet deck and fast opening bowlers and the ball seeming everywhere, and I'm out there with bells on, love it, grind out of 30 and feel really good about myself. Give me a couple of kids bowling on a flat track, and I don't even want to bat. I don't want to play. Because I want the challenge, I want the I want to uh I I believe I've got depth, I believe I've got resilience, and I want chances to show it. No, the the the the tougher the situation, the more I feel I do better, I perform better. So I've rated that highly because and and so you know, flat trap bullies, yeah, whatever. You know, wait till finals, mate. We'll see if you got it then. So I I'd put this right and wrong about it my whole life. And where did that resilience come from? Coming out of toughness, doing it hard, eating rabbits, you know, raising yourself, you know, walking to school and back, you know, all that sort of story stuff, you know, and so when you do it and you do it tough and you build all this resilience, it it holds in good stead. You don't melt down at the first sign of something wrong and you know, all the memes that you see, you know, of soldiers in yesteryear versus the kids of today and all this, yep. Get all that. But here's what I see a problem, and it's a problem for me is something gets a bit tough, what do I do? I dive in.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:58

Is it mine to dive into? What happens when I've done 12 hours straight solving everyone else's problem because I'm resilient and I can go there and I can help, and I really want to help, and I know what I'm doing, and I'm tough, and I'll go in and argue with someone because to get an outcome for them because you know it's really important to them. And when does it kill me? When does, you know, my my best story there is a is a mate who was he was a single truck owner operator, and he'd, you know, like a like a trader, he would work and earn money accordingly. And then he got this contract where he needed three more trucks and he got three drivers, and things got a bit tough for a few reasons, and he actually disappeared. And his wife couldn't find him, he wouldn't answer his phone. The three other guys are sitting around with a truck not knowing what to do, and everyone's panicking, and I'm trying to help. Anyway, when we got hold of him two days later, he was just driving. 24-7 driving. Because that's what you do when it gets tough, Jeff. You get in and you just do the work. Of course, what happened? He got done with his logbook, you know, by New South Wales police and told to sleep for 20 hours or something. And uh then they went down the road half an hour and waited, and sure enough, within an hour he's driving past again, and then they got him again, and then he went to court, and you know, and you can imagine the impact on that. All because he was resilient, because it got tough, so he went in and did it harder. So that's the back brain and the amygdala effectively saying, fight, fight, let's get in fight. You know, it's tough. Let's fire it up and let's get in fight. And of course, you know, people that aren't as emotionally attached using their front brain are saying, hey, let's plan this a bit, let's work out and how we can do this, but the resilience kicks in. So that's probably my link to resilience that I still think it's a good trait, but geez, it can do people in too.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not always, you know, the desirable one.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:34

Yeah. Because you build, you know, you build up, sorry, you when when your mental health issues often are linked to people who are quite resilient and just you know, just exhausted mentally, physically, everything because they're doing everything for everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

Another what I'd consider a bad trade is you know, jealousy and envy. Do you see that? And where does that fit in? And can that be really crippling for people because they just you know, they just they just can't get over those those things.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:03

Yeah. I I agree. Again, I try and take a uh a balanced view of things, yeah. And I I say that they're not necessarily on my high on my list as good traits to have, but I don't also say they're the worst things ever. Sometimes they create uh jealousy, you know, they're not nice in some ways, but they can create a drive, you know. So if you've got so could you you could dumb that down and say competition, someone who's out there doing something well and you're jealous of what they're doing, it might be the driver to a supply to do yourself well. And uh so, but my my quick story also when you're talking about black and white is you know, a mate when I went to school, in my mind, he was born with a silver spoon, you know, his his parents were rich according to rich in a country town, you know, because they had land or whatever they had, and they had the business empire and all this sort of thing, and it was all good profile, no understanding of you know history or debt, it's just the profile side. And they acted like they were the upper end of society, and of course I'm street fighter with nothing, and so I'm jealous. I'm jealous of the opportunities and the lifestyle these boats were able to lead that I considered were, you know, whatever. Anyway, of course, I go forward in life, and I actually think the opposite now. It's not uh sympathy, but it's compassion because you know, the sense of obligation they took on. And you know, there's one mate I've got now, and his you know, his health and his decision making through his life has been off the back of no grounding, you know, because it was just like you just roll in, so he hasn't had life learnings and he and life's a bit hard for him in a number of ways. And of course, he's also sixth generation in a business that's just hadn't got a long-term future, and he's got a sense of community obligation and family obligation, so he's got a poison chalice, nearly. And I sit there and say, I've been free, completely free to make my own decisions in life, own them, either successful or not, it doesn't matter. I've been free, and he's been so not free, it's not funny. And now that I can see that through different eyes, I you know, and when I when I see my kids be a little bit jealous, you know. Um, they're both down at uni now, and they talk about other people in the class, and you know, you know what I mean in the in the college and all that, and you can see it come through. And I'm sitting there looking at the character of the people and whatever, and saying, I'm really proud of my girls, and I don't want them to be in that environment because it's not necessarily good grounding for them as they get older. So, yeah, I see it, and yeah, and I yeah, but but you we can't help what we're born into either, Dwayne. We all, you know, myself and my business partner have a saying, we all have choices. So if we we know where we fit innately. So if you are the person that's you know 30 years old and you're the sixth generation, you've inherited a uh thing, you you don't have to act poorly, you don't have to act um good. You can do whatever you like. You own your position, your whatever. And there's some really, really good business operators and quality people in that situation. Then they're not all uh punzers either, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Uh we're getting to the end, and one of our subscribers um heard the last podcast and wrote in, and you've got a great uh question you always ask in these many meetings that you have. Well, what are you gonna do about it? One of your favourites, and you've used that one on me a few times, and it's been good. But what what if you're stuck? And he asked the question, what can you do about it? So what if you're stuck? What what do people do there? Where do where do the where can they go to sort of find answers to you know what the that question you're asking?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:27

Yep. So without getting too philosophical here, yes, the what can you do about it if it's frustrating or desperate, that means you've got a need, you want an outcome. So, in that example, I think it was about, for instance, uh he said something about like dealing with a bank, for instance, like getting how do I get the bank to understand my vision? And so here's what I would say in general terms. Firstly, he has a need, he wants finance access. The what I would say is very simple is try and when you've got a need, you're you're trying to control the outcome. What I would turn around and say is that if you want to work out the outcome, work out who you're dealing with and what their needs are. So when you have a need, it's hard to see the need. So I'll put that in simple terms. So there's a person in a bank credit department, it's not the manager who handles it and says things and whether they like it or not. The person in the bank credit department, they're going to be audited by APRA and they have to tick the responsible lending laws. Then they've got their own bank policy, and that policy is going to say this amount of equity and this repaymentability and this security and all those things, and all that feel around it. And and so those are all widgets, those are all facts, those are all numbers, and that's the world that Credit Guy operates in.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

So when someone says, Yeah, quickly at that, would that person get fired or something like that, or hauled over coals if they didn't adhere to those things as law?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:48

Would you get fined if you got done doing 140 on the freeway? Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

If I got caught, yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:53

Yep. So if you did it and you got caught, well, so what's your job? To drive in the speed limit. Their job is to adhere to bank policy and upper law. So they're not allowed to. This is the whole point. So when someone's talking about they want a bank to see their vision, well, the bank aren't there to see the vision. I I uh what if I wanted my doctor to see my um golf handicap? What is it relevance? Now, what I would say, this is how I turn around and say, if you truly take yourself out of what you want and you put yourself in their shoes, that credit department needs to see widgets. Then when you understand what widgets they need to see, the metrics, the policy, and then if you don't have it on what you've done recently, like with financial statements and currently, you have the ability to sell the story that you tick their boxes. So one, you've got to know what boxes they need to tick if you want their money, and number two, you have the ability in ag to sell that out over future years. So if this person has a vision, then they need to convert that vision into a business plan, into budgets, and talk the language to the person that they want that information from.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:57

Their language, the bank's language.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

That's right. So what I say, and I'm not picking on this person, and uh and they're listening, I'm sure they'll be listening to this, but I'm not saying that their vision isn't important to the bank, don't get me wrong, but but it's important to them. What's important to the bank? Now, the truth is if that vision does not have the ability to repay the debt, then the answer isn't going to be what the person wants.

unknown 1:21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:20

Because they don't lend for visions and they don't lend to make people feel good, they lend under law to get repaid. So if the vision includes repayment ability, then it's very, very simple. Understand what repayment ability really looks like and what an approvable file looks like. If you don't know, you get a professional, a broker, or whatever, the end of the day, understand what that looks like and present it. That's how simple it is, present it. So my my answer to that is as an example, and I know I talk about this a lot, and it's not, please, it's not a promotion for broking or whatever, but does anyone go to the ATO, give them all their stuff, and then ask them what the tax return is? Or do they engage an accountant to do it first, knowing what they're putting in with all the laws and estimating what's going to happen and then come back? So you need someone to present on your behalf that understands the game. And you know, so who is that professional? And this is where brokers uh are getting more and more relevant in ag simply because, and no disrespect to bank managers, but they're paid by the bank. So and and they can't actually present on behalf of the client anyway. They're not allowed to grab the cash flows and change them or anything like that. So at the end of the day, the customer, the poor customer, is sitting there saying, How do I translate this vision? What are those metrics and everything else? And that's the professional service that's been coming in more and more with brokers. We have it everywhere, you don't go to court without a lawyer representing you, and because you don't know what the laws are, what you what you need to do. So we're starting to talk the same thing. So when I say own it, at the end of the day, a five-year business plan will allow the bank to assess that, and if the numbers stack up to their metrics, they will be approved. So understanding what the you know the metrics are and the policy is, and then doing the work to present it, the vision and all, and I've got an example here where a guy was converting a lot of his vines to both organic and different varieties and so on and so on, and he was struggling to access money, and he said to me, Why don't the bank understand what I'm doing? And I, calmly as anything, just to annoy him, said, They don't know what you're doing. Oh, but I said, What'd you say? You know, and and what are they listening to? Words or numbers? You know, so how about you put a business plan together and paint your picture, show them what they need to see in future years? Because if it doesn't stack up, you're gonna stop doing it tomorrow. If it does stack up, you'll be able to access money. So own it. How's that from brutal?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:33

That's that's good, that's good. Um, the thing from our last podcast, the banking and finance one, the thing I took away from that is that we actually have to change. We have to look in the mirror and we are the ones that actually have to change. What what what are the big takeaways from the mindset one and the the things you've learned over the years? What's what's the number one thing that people can do to help them, you know, be freer in the mind, perhaps, or you know, listen better?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:02

The this this ties in, yeah, all of these things. This ties into this is a key, I say, and I heard this saying years ago, and that is the less control you seek, the more control you have. So it's uh like I like I said, the um you know, the the power sits with those that seek it the less. So the more we try to control things, the more we get upset what we don't control, and so on and so on. So I know it's easy to say, and half the listeners here are saying, Oh, here we go, into the wow wow shit. But the the the point here is that if we're so desperate for something, it becomes so black and white, and that's it that we we have no ability to see the other person. We understand what we're trying to get, you know. And I I I I've done this down, I liken it down to whether it's a sport or trying to pick up girls in the day or whatever. You know, how do you do that? You know, you've got to understand their needs for a start, and you've got to be respectful and understanding. And one of the things I've noticed, and and it and it still pushes my buttons a little bit, is when um banks aren't respected to their policy, they're not, you know, they're in the business of lending money and doing things and everything else. So they it's not like they don't want to lend to people, yeah. But the the truth is they are restrained into what they are, and when someone just throws a tantrum because they don't fit the boxes instead of owning what will fit the boxes, then you know what is the bank meant to do about that? You know, so I actually sit there and say, along the way, and certainly in sales culture back before GST, uh GFC, we had a lot of you know, beat the banks up and tell them what we want and all that sort of thing. I'm sitting there going, man, they got the money and we haven't.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:34

And if we want their money, you know, isn't it respectful? You know, will you give me a car, Dwayne? Can I have your car? Just for nothing, because I want it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

So is the takeaway from this the grey?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:46

Yep. Well, I I turn around and I say, There's a few, this is my summary takeaway. Firstly, let's not beat ourselves up or anyone else on how we act in certain situations and understand it's chemical, it's science, it's uh the way our brain works. Stop judging. And and when you uh wrote recently about be curious, I think it was actually um quoted in Ted Lasso. If you ever watched Ted Lasso with his darts scene, he said, Stop being judgmental and start being curious. And you couldn't get two ends of the scale better on that. And so when you're curious, you ask questions. And he made a scene about he was a dance expert, and uh, but no one knew because they didn't ask and they didn't stop and wonder. Um, so we're going down and say, you know, back off on pushing yourself out there and feeling the need to, and you know, be curious and start to understand, and and you know, I know it sounds silly, but try and settle that immediately down and chill a bit. You know, that's that's point number one. Try to understand yourself, try to be nice to yourself and understand it. Understand other people's behaviors. This is my biggest learning is when someone fires up and has a crack, 99% of the time you just happen to be the one in the room, or you've asked the question that set the trigger off. It's not about you. You know, I've been I've been told all sorts of things by so many people it's not funny over the years. Generally because they don't like what I say or they're threatened by something, and I'm the target or I'm I'm the safe place that's meant to be solving their problem in their mind. You know, so the the truth of all of this is it's not about me. Never is about me. I'm there to help and assist, but it's not about me. So find self-blame. If someone's blaming you for something, stop trying to push back and understand it's not about you. Um, and the fear, the drivers of fear, that's the biggest one for me. You know, when you see where it all comes from, I get a lot of compassion. You know, like I said, people that get really testy and aggressive, it's just the way the fear comes out. You know, someone will turn down and break down and cry out of fear, someone else will just yell at you and try and punch you. They're actually the same reaction to do things based on their amygdala and how their body's reacting. So, in all of that, um, you know, my my takeaway areas here is yeah, the grey areas, yep, chill out, you know, relax. Um, look, and can I just say one trick here is independence? Yeah, you know the value of this the way. I and yourself and a lot of people have learnt this is that when they know that their emotions are at play, and when there's a conversation, especially when there's a conversation that admits that, you know, family succession, my God, you know, let's start on that, you know. But when there's emotions at play, then to try and get an outcome, to actually have independence and and anything on this, when you when you know you're reacting, this is my what my poor wife, my my staff, you know, whoever, when I have had a little bit of a fire-up about something, I try and make an argument for the other side.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:31

And sometimes I make a bloody good argument that I'm the biggest arsehole in the world. Um, so in all of that, um, you know, my takeaway on this is say if we can back ourselves out and our needs out of it, life's so much easier and clearer. And allow a bit of you know, a bit of compassion for other people in the spot they're in too.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:49

That's excellent, Jeff. Um, speaking of chill out, now you've got 10 days up camping up in the darling river with with a bunch of blokes. Now, my advice to you is make sure you have a few drinks tonight so you're a little bit piss-fit, because um there'll be plenty of that go on.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:04

You you know the story, that first night's always a killer because you think you're 20 again and it can ruin the old trip something. So I'll uh I'll have to ease up. That's right, a bit of pre-season.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:13

That's it. No, thanks, Jeff. Much appreciated. That was a fantastic um conversation, and uh yeah, have a great trip.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:21

Yeah, thanks, Dwayne. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

End of message.