Mountain Biking in SEQ Episode 10 (with special guest Cam Taylor)

Welcome to Episode 10 of the Mountain Biking in South East Queensland Podcast - today we've got Oppy, Lachie and special guest Cam Taylor of Goodness Gravel.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Here we are again. Welcome back to Mountain Biking in Southeast Queensland. I'm Lockie. I'm here with Oppie and a special guest who we'll introduce in a minute. Oppie, it's only been a couple of weeks. What's going on? Yeah, we're getting in the swing of the things. Yeah, we are keen to chat to lots of local awesome mountain bikers, and we've got another one here today. Um, following on from Mike Blewitt uh a couple of weeks ago, who was uh who was an awesome chat, all things BQ and Australian mountain biking. But today we've got Cam Taylor. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, um I went and dug into my my archives and found a few photos of you mountain biking at Hidden Vale. And as far I got as far back as probably 2017, I saw some photos, I think, of you out there on your mountain bike. But it appears you've been on a bike since you were much younger. And in a and in an area not too far from here. That's true. Yep, Mount Cotton just down the road. Yeah. So when is the first time that you picked up a bike?

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Well, I think, yeah, rode as a kid on the on a BMX in the in the driveway, like like most people. Um, but I think getting into riding seriously happened uh w as an adult. Uh when I'd come back from uh America, a bit of an extended um study abroad, and uh enjoyed too many hamburgers, needed a hobby, and uh decided that I'd um I'd pick myself up a mountain bike. Um it was a giant ATX 860. I still remember it's a beautiful blue colour. Didn't know anything about bikes at the time, um, and took myself off and and got lost in the bush a few times. Uh then I I had that bike when I started working, so I would ride to work, and it just so happened um that my colleagues were all into mountain biking and triathlon road cycling, and they used to give me a hard time because the bike was pretty pristine, and they um they uh they looked down on me and they said we need to put some spray on mud on that bike because it's too clean. And so they they took me out to to Gap Creek, um, and that was my sort of first initiation. I remember hating the ride, wanted to throw the bike in the bin because these guys were disappearing off the trail, down the trail at a million miles an hour, going around corners, and I, you know, it was it was really hard actually. Um, but that was that was my first um foray, I guess, into mountain biking. Yeah, a baptism of fire at Gap Creek. 100%. And the trails back then were a little bit different to what they are now. There wasn't any flow or airflow um back in the day, it was all hand cut. Um I remember what sort of era are we talking? This would have been 2002. Okay. So I remember parking at Bilby Road, for those who know Gap Creek, and um I still remember the trail names. It was uh Rogers and Roller Coaster. Um and yeah, it was it was a fun time. It was uh, you know, whenever you're discovering something new, it's not something that happens every day. So it's simultaneously terrifying but also amazing. And so yeah, I don't know how I stuck at it because I didn't really enjoy it, but um just kept going and yeah, it just it turned into a into a passion.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

That's awesome. I think some of some of every any rider's best memories are when they first start the the sport of mountain biking, um, very, very vivid memories of of discovering a whole new concept of riding, which is exciting. Um it's a very timely chat because we I know you from events more recently that you've started to run. Um Oppie's uh been to a lot of events in SEQ. When uh was your when did you start riding events yourself?

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah, that's a great question. Um it was back in the early 2000s. I remember going to the um the Sunshine series, XCO races, and um that's another steep learning curve. Um and I think it just uh snowballed from there. I used to really enjoy the mountain bike marathons, and uh the thing I liked was that you could pack the car up, drive somewhere for the weekend with some mates, and explore some new new trails. So I remember going to uh the Kofts um harbour marathon, uh early epics, um, um excuse. It was good because it would get you to somewhere that you might not ordinarily go. And uh holidays are always good when you've got a purpose. Like it's cool to lie on the beach and read a book, but sometimes when you've got somewhere and you you you go in there for a reason, even if it's not a like a performance reason or a racing reason, um this just makes for a for a better experience. Um but things just snowball and you start, you know, you get a little bit more experience, you get a bit better, you start training, you you know, you do the 50k one, and then the next time you want to do the hundred. Um and so it just becomes this almost like um not an addiction, but uh you you you want to get back to the next one. Sometimes you hate it at the time or shortly after, but a day or two goes by and you're looking for the next event, it no matter how hard the day's been.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Classic type two fun. That's it. Fun after the fact.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Did you did you bump into Cam early early days of uh riding around this?

SPEAKER_02 5:41

I was just thinking, like, do I I can't remember you coming out too many XCO races. I mean, I didn't do a lot of marathons apart from the you know kind of uh traditional epic every so often.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

But um I don't think our paths ever directly cross, but I do remember MTV Dirt forums back in the day. Um, and that was sort of like the early internet, right, before social media, and there are all these personalities on there, and sometimes you'd rock up to a a social ride and there'd be a few, you know, faces that you could put names to. But um that's when I first remember your name popping up in my on my radar.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

In the sphere. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, uh I was thinking about Gap Creek 2002 and uh oh sorry, tw 2002. Yeah, sorry. Getting my decades mixed up. And I was I was just thinking that so that was about two years before they formally adopted the trails there and started to formalize them. So yeah, it was pretty um uh goat tracks up and down hills and you know um off pieced. Uh it would they were they're very rugged. That that was that was kind of like the the second coming of of Gap Creek when it really started to take off. I was just thinking that's like trying to place the bikes and the and the period. So um yeah, the the Sunshine series of that time sort of had a bit more travel, like it was more it was more of a state series. Yeah, it's now become more of a southeast Queensland century with an occasional yeah, we might get as far as Gimpy if we're lucky, but um we used to go to Rocky and and Bunderberg and Mackay and um yeah, a lot further up. Did you ever get to any of those northern races?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

I do remember going to some of those, yeah, tagging along with some mates. Um used to ride out with a group from um is it Tony Carson? TCars from TC's bike bar. Yeah. Two R's bike bar. He was uh he was a skilled dude on a bike. I remember at the shop one day and seeing him go past he was servicing a bike, took it outside to test ride, came past on the back wheel and thought, oh that's cool. Disappears for a few minutes, next minute he comes past on the front wheel. Um so yeah, we had a good crew there, and um that's who I sort of learnt the the ropes from. Um so yeah, we used to go to Gap Creek, you know, Tuesday, Thursday mornings, there for a while. I think it was a dollar donation, and we'd do a skills session, um, and then yeah, we'd go to some of the the races. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

The Riders Club was the um yeah, it was an interesting time for club clubs were a lot simpler, and you talk about that like a dollar, like to join a club, you could join a club for five dollars. There was no um license or or uh racing license or fees, so clubs were much more informal and much easier to join, and you didn't have resources online or YouTube videos on how to do stuff. So if you weren't that's how you learnt where to go, how to ride, you know, and and uh you know, clubs were where it's at.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

100%. There were no YouTube videos telling you, you know, put your outside leg down as you went around a corner or you know, use your elbows and knees as suspension. You just had to figure it out and learn from others and watch what they were doing. Um yeah, and I remember doing um early Nebo, so I think you know, the south boundary all the way to Nebo for a coffee and back. And um, you know, the first time doing that, I remember getting pushed, you know, up the hills to get home because I was completely buckled. Um but it was all good fun. Yeah, and we we used to have trips too where we'd go out to Nango. Nango, yeah, yeah. They called that the brass monkey tour because we'd go out in the middle of you know July or or June. So it was an introduction to yeah, I guess what we call now is gravel riding or adventure riding, because we do the XEO stuff, but also anything that was dirt we'd just ride on our mountain bikes. So, you know, fire trails, backcountry roads, yeah, and that was that was cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, I was thinking I I do remember um getting out to Nanango, East Nanango State Forest. There's no trails left in that. They logged it all, but uh yeah, there used to be some magic, magic, and there's still magic gravel out there, which is kind of your your wheelhouse these days. You you know, you've they do say like you know, gravel is just 90s mountain bikes reborn, but I mean, yeah, with drop bars.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

But you know, the thing is, even when you're doing a gravel ride and you say you're in a place in that like Nenango, like the mountain biker in you is still trying to sniff out the single track. So your head's on a swivel because every little cutout or you know thing that disappears into the bush, you're like, ooh, is that a bit of trail? And even if it's just a little wallaby track or um maybe some moto track, and sometimes it's not worth it at all because it's ruttered or disappears down a 40% gradient, but um you kind of live for those moments of you know trying to find a a hidden gem.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I remember the first time on the B VRT you go through those big cutout culverts or whatever is where the train was cut through the the side of a hill, and you just look up where the wallabies are running and follow the follow the path up and go on the edge of the the big giant cutout is good fun. Um there's something you said I wanted to I've been waiting to come back to and that was the the MTB dirt forums. Yeah. I rem I remember that, but I think it's since gone, the the site's completely gone. It's it's archived on the internet if you want to want to look it up.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Yeah because MTB DKNX was before MTB dirt. Right. And the guys that sort of were involved in that um took it to become M TB Dirt and became Steve Adren, I think was the moderator and owner of the form.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Rings of Elvut, it's been a while since I haven't heard any of those names.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, there's a there's a few there's a few people from back in the day on that forum that I still ride with. I still catch up with, so you know, they they don't go away. But um yeah, it was wild times. The in I tell people the internet was free and true. Uh and it would it didn't have pictures. Um my first experience on the internet, throw right back, was in um uh multi-user online chat chat groups, Moogs and MUDs, uh at uni. And yeah, I tell people it was university to university, it was only text the early days of the internet. But I think you I think MTBD, M T B dirt could you post photos?

SPEAKER_03 12:18

I don't yeah, you could post photos, but I think those forums now, if you go back to them, because the photos are hosted somewhere else, they're rarely, you know, ever there.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Um but it there was another one, road Rotoburn or something.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Oh yeah, Rotaburn was based in Tooomba. That's right. I remember that one. What was it called? But farkin.net. Yeah. F-A-R-K-I-A-I-N or K-E-N before yeah, they had to rebrand it because you know they tr they basically started to become more mainstream over time. I think that still exists. Um, Rotaburn.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Well, it's funny how like a lot of these um platforms, right? What's old is new again. You know, you've got Reddit, which is in some ways pretty similar to these old forums. You've got social media, which is you know just a different kind of reinvention of the same concepts. It's just nicer technology, but it's still really the same sort of stuff um, you know, that's that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

One of the things that I've you know we've kind of touched on a uh before is that you don't need clubs anymore. You can get five people together on your own social group, your own social page, and you're off doing your own bike ride or getting together for you know um uh to go riding. So there isn't that um peer-to-peer transmission of knowledge, there isn't that um uh culture of mountain biking passed on from to new users, you know. They don't learn from the peers and the true.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Yeah. I mean, there's still yeah, it it's definitely different to what it used to be. It's it's funny, uh like my son's thirteen now and he's into mountain biking. Um well done. Thank you, yep. It's one of those tough as a parent, you don't want to, but it's really cool when you've got something you can you can do together. Um and we were riding in Daisy uh a couple of weekends ago, and it is it hit me that we were riding um on a trail, and there's still some old signs up in in Daisy, which is cool. And I I just had a moment where I was like, that sign has been there since I have been riding in this place 20 odd years ago, and now we're on this trail, um, and it it's still there. Um, but everything else is you know changed, the bikes have changed, the trails, you know, some of them are the same, but a lot of them have have changed heaps. Um but with the skill stuff, he's amazing, he's better, he's better than I have ever been or ever will be already, and part of that is because he's the new generation and there's lots of stuff on YouTube and and and socials, but also one of the cool things we did was um he goes to Ride Technics, which is run by Dylan and um Dylan Cooper, and that is the same sort of vibe as the the club thing, so they do get that face-to-face um you know transfer of knowledge, and then also that little cool community of having friends to go riding with and to have a bit of friendly you know rivalry. I can jump this or I can wheelie this far, how can you know what what can you do? So it's super important, but it is harder to get, I think, these days. You've got to go looking for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah, as they say, the uh well I was gonna say the future ain't what it used to be. Um but uh yeah, look, the the kids are the future of mountain biking, and it's interesting to see where they're taking it and how it's going. I mean, we often talk about uh the future of mountain biking being e e-bikes, which which pains me greatly, but the but really it's the kids. So I mean the right techniques is really um bringing uh kids in and giving them that ex social experience, the benefit of the knowledge of previous generations of riders. And it's it's also bringing in uh broader demographics too. There's a lot more, there's a lot more girls involved, there's a lot more women involved. You know, we'd sort of it's become much more of a um a broad-based activity, and it's not just a sport anymore, it's it's a recreation, it's a lifestyle. Um yeah, so a lot of that's changed.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Yeah, I th the thing I find really interesting is you see the transition of the sport at that grassroots level too. Like a lot of the kids ride XC and Enduro, and they ride their XC bikes like an Enduro bike uh a lot of the time. So like when I was learning, even though I was older, the you know, I wasn't trying to hit jumps or do tricks or um I guess maybe we didn't see that stuff. Or you saw it in magazines and on VHS videos, not you know, on social media. But the thing that blows me away is like how much the you know, each generation's getting better and the skills that the kids have got these days just across the board is pretty mind blowing. It's it's cool to see.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah, I think the bikes are orders of magnitude better. Like I was you know, like my cross-country race bike has a uh a longer, slacker, lower geometry than some of my previous downhill bikes from you know 15-20 years ago, and it's just so much more capable. But there's no margin for error. That's probably the biggest difference in an Enduro bike to a cross-country bike, is like the geometry is fairly similar, but it's only 100-120 ml of travel, whereas 160, 170, it's uh it's just that much more forgiving. Yeah, okay. You don't quite land the jump or you're not quite square. So I think the um that's progression, that's the nature of it. So but I do see in the broadening of the base of mountain biking opportunities for people that aren't into the the more technical aspects or their um coming to the sport uh more mature or let or more risk averse. And I touched on gravel because that's where we kind of really reconnected um with the uh uh the iconic Brisbane robay. So I don't know, should we should we dig into the uh the Brisbane classics?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, I was gonna I was just gonna ask what your favorite you said you you've you know not as techy as your son is now at 13, but um what's your favourite format? Did you ever get into the gravity style of of writing or have you had and what what is your favorite sort of event to do?

SPEAKER_03 18:38

So yeah, got into XEO but never quite worked it out. I think um uh just didn't resonate with me, never got warm-ups right, training, and um I ended up sort of going more to the marathon stuff, which is where I um you know each rider goes through their progression, they get into it, they get more serious, and they st want to see where they're where they can get to, you know, if they want to compete. So XEO didn't really work with me. Uh but yeah, marathons I ended up having a bit of success, so that's where I gravitated to and I liked the the longer format. Um and then that led to a bit of road cycling and road racing. Um, but no, I never did any any gravity stuff, didn't didn't have the skills. Um that's fair. You would have been rubbing shoulders a bit with with Hubcap at some events. Yeah, yep. So Hubcap and I go way back. Yeah. Um he's he's a great guy. We've we've had heaps of um you know, always bump into it at at events. He's uh he's a ray of sunshine. Yeah. Um just can't shut the fellow up sometimes. Um he was perfect for this. Exactly. Um yeah, but no, marathons was where it's at, and then um yeah, a bit of a bit of road racing as well. What's your favourite marathon? Oh, that's a good question, isn't it? It's hard to be the epic for Legacy, and you know, it's been around for ages. I just wish it was point-to-point.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Well, I keep saying it's 20 this year will be 24 years. Yes, I know where you're going with this. If you're listening, screw, on the Saturday, let's have a you know, point to point the day before the epic. Anyhow. So I'm trying to talk to talk hubcap into it. Or maybe we'll we'll ride up and ride back the next day, maybe not on the same weekend as the epic. But yeah, I think you know, it's iconic. It is iconic. It'd be nice to revisit the history of it. I mean, I've I've been sneaking around in the back blocks of uh Marmot Creek trying to find ways through and and um the Razorback and a few of the other iconics. Ladely Gap? Is that that's still open? Um Ladly Gap's open. I've been over that on the bike. It's still ridiculous. Um Red Red Gap Road, I'm trying to remember. So there's anyhow, there's lots of I'd say um that 80% of it's there, uh, but 10% of it's overgrown, and 10% of it may you may not be able to go through anymore. So it's um but there's uh you don't want to get stuck on some of those narrow roads. I think it's uh um yeah, anyhow, avoid the bitchment at all costs. The dirt roads, well they're narrow, they're winding, they're high speed, there's no shoulder, and there's a lot of there's a lot more traffic 25 years later. So Yeah, that's the fact. You couldn't you couldn't actually hold an event on them anymore. You you it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

And I mean uh they'll never say never, you know. We could get some road closures going, and if anyone can do it, screw's got the resources, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

So oh look, it's it's one of the great challenges is that it's multiple uh uh councils. So I think the it's Ipswich and then it's Somerset Regional. So I think it's both. Are they s they're still in Ipswich region on the H Vamp Hidden Vale?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

part of scenic I I thought they were scenic scenic room. Oh no. But I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

There's there's permissions and road closures. Yeah. Back in the day I don't think so many of those things happened. Things you know, they just Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah. Well it'd be cool to see it back in in that s somewhat original format.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

If not as an event, I think maybe a a render. Yes. Yep. That could work. A brevet. Well how's this for a segue Yopby? You may not be able to to uh change or tell the the the epic where and what to do and where to go but you've got your own events that you're uh that you've some that you've already run a couple of years and apparently if you knew under the belt that you're that you're going to be managing would you like to tell us a little bit about how you kind of got into the event management side of things um why and how?

SPEAKER_03 22:54

Yeah no I'd love to uh completely by accident um but sometimes the best things happen by by accident. Yeah I think so a couple of years ago uh my background's in software not in events um but I'd done lots of cool um you know local rides that might not necessarily have been organised events so and one of the formats was sort of a a Parirou Bay tribute ride where we would ride road bikes and find some gravel to to um to add to a to a road ride. And so yeah I think there's lots of organised rides tour to Brisbane you know things like that but nothing really that's kind of got a bit of a unique um fun character character a bit of vibe so yeah I think uh 2023 I think might have been the first one and I just basically um organized it from Nanda crit track and it was very you know low-key grassroots Alley cat style alley cat style is a great way to describe it made a brevet card and a map I think I charged 40 bucks we had some beers and an ESC at the end um we might have had some photography Ben yep yep Ben went out and did that one um and so yeah feedback was really good I and I think the the thing about it was that I got a really good um kick out of it from putting on a a good time for people and that was you know gives you lots of warm fuzzies so that was sort of the impetus to do it the next year um and it's kind of a low stakes thing for you give it a crack and yeah that's it or it doesn't yep 100%. And yeah so did it again next year and then um got a few more people we did a few more things to make it a bit more um uh legit you know um finished at a brewery started a coffee shop um that's legit yeah well a bit more of a vibe you know yeah oh for sure um and then people came back and they're like look it was good but can you can we have something with a bit more gravel or a bit more off-road and so that um that was the birth of brown snake gravel um so that was the next event that was added to the to the roster and that was um we ran for the first time last year um and that was it was good fun yeah um so we started at Newstead there um again at a a coffee shop and um riders went west of Brisbane um on a combination of bike paths roads fire trails and then back to um a brewery for a bit of a bit of a celebration and a and a chance to swap some some stories um we had two distances to um to give people you know be a little bit more inclusive I guess and try and get a bit more of a range of of of people involved um yeah and it was I guess I that was got the got the I got the bug um and then just before Christmas this year I got a phone call from a lovely gent called Will Levy from Sydney and he runs uh Goodness Gravel and uh he also runs Two Wheel Tours which is an overseas cycling um holiday company and uh he said to me uh Cam it's it's getting a bit much um you do a good job with the events in Brisbane how do you feel about taking on um for events in regional New South Wales uh gravel gravel events and um I said to Will I said um you know we had a chat about what was involved and and I said I'll I'll need to think about it but truth was I'd already decided on the phone that I was going to do it. Um that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Yeah so uh so all of a sudden I'm an event organizer now with six events congratulations thank you jump in and just you know have a great time um I I remember those early um the Brisbane Rebe and um Brown Snake Gravel and I was thinking it's a curated experience for people that wouldn't go through those places on their own or you know aren't doing the exploring don't know where to start and it's it's such a fantastic way to introduce people to you know Brown Snake Gravel took people into the the heart of Diagli Range National Park where they've never been before and it's like yeah this is just magic. There was it was and most of them came home too right I don't think we lost anyone um I think there were some mechanical retirements maybe but uh there were no brown snakes from what I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

No well there were the only snakes hopefully were the um the Alens variety yeah yeah no everyone was smiling at that event and I remember being parked just as you come into uh where are we before you get to Gap Creek Reserve some of the section before weather that probably the steepest pinchy climb on the hole that you're talking about before you descend into Gap Creek Road um into the reserve and yeah even even trying to get up that hill after what are they 70 Ks at that point some of them who've done the big loop um they were still having a blast it's an it's a it's an adventure kind of ride.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

That's that's the whole point. Yeah it's it's definitely about yeah fun adventure um connecting with like minded people and yeah I think a big part of it is um is going to places or connecting things up that you know you might not have known about and I I think that's really cool. Like if you've been riding around Brisbane for a long time it's easy to take some of these this local knowledge for granted and um it's cool not to gatekeep it you know just to give someone um you know a guided tour if you like in in an event to be like you know try have you have you been here to what to open their eyes to to what beautiful riding we've got in the in the region.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Well you're well positioned as someone who's done so many events and come away with I guess over time you've you've seen what you like about an event what you haven't liked about an event and now you've got all that under your belt and can go well this is how I want my events to be is there is there anything that highest priority on the list of how your event will be spoken about what is your what are you going to be known for?

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Uh yeah I think um I have been responding to people who've been signing up to the goodness gravel mailing list um you know when I can and um had a a writer sign up today and I just shot back a you know G'day thanks for for signing up you know can I ask what part of your part of the world you're in and um you know what what sort of riding you like or you know what appeals to you about events and yeah the the thing that came up was adventure so that's that's definitely key. Going somewhere new is also a big part of it and that can be in your own backyard sometimes. It doesn't have to be a road trip away but that's you know a cool weekend or two when you go go somewhere new um and and having fun. So regardless of whether you're you know fit not fit you know racing or want to go fast or you know just trying to get around um I think those are things that people can get around um and have have a great day out. So it doesn't it's not it's like um it's like cooking you know you can get the recipe but it's how you put it together.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

It's not like a checklist of silver bullets and you've got yourself a great event sometimes um you'll have all the things that you think you need and something's not quite right or or doesn't work you know sure you're bound to to come up against things that will challenge you that you you wouldn't have thought about previously anything you anything new you do will have its have its um quirks and challenges but we wish you all the best you want to plug some of the the dates and the Yeah that'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Yeah um so we've got uh goodness gravel gland in us is on the 7th of March that's a Saturday that's just over four weeks away from when we're recording this um there's three distances so we've got 125Ks 75 and 35 um goodness gravel's great it's got some of the best aid stations going around according to the the feedback so we're going to be carrying over the existing um sort of format there there's donuts there's savory shapes there's chips and pretzels as well as all your other sports nutrition stuff um saying that chips and pretzels aren't sports nutrition well who's been lying to me all these years I'm just listening going ticks all my boxes yeah um yeah and so it's a cool vibe we've got some live musicians uh Gleninus is a is a really interesting place it's a thousand metres above sea level you've got all these amazing granite rocky outcrops um it's a really big Celtic capital so it's got a really strong Scottish heritage they have some um standing stones in town which is a little bit like a stone henge and when you um when you stand in line with them you can see where the sun is it helps it's basically like a clock which is really interesting. And then a month later we've got Brisbane Roubaix it's the third edition um and the inspiration this year is um I think it's I think it's three that's what the website says maybe I am wrong though. Yeah 20 I think it's third.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Was it yes the third I think it's the third sorry I've got two two cards this will be the yeah and I'm getting mixed up with the photography anyway but also we had brown snake in there.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yeah it might have um and so yeah trying to find some different inspiration each year and this year we're going retro um the theme is the uh the 1980s motorola kit so we've got a a collaboration with um with black sheep apparel um and they're making a jersey for the um for the event um and we're encouraging riders if they wish to to um to get dressed up buy some some Larry retro kit off eBay um you know turn up on your old steel bike if you're super keen if you do that what do you mean old steel bike I'm still riding my you've got cantilevers that qualifies you yeah down tube shifters I think would get extra extra points.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

I've got a lovely berretto steel so made in Brisbane by um Brett Richardson so I might have to um that sound might have to get it looked at because it's uh the quill stem the alloy quill stem has a crack and uh yeah it needs well that could offer some compliance over the the bumps perhaps uh yes it it might but mode of failure is catastrophic I believe is the problem um uh I'm glad to see you've got some new inspirations because uh I've I've got some down here you know inspired by the the Brisbane Rebe okay so I might I might hit you up with um the uh the new Brisbane Spring Classics okay so um you know I was thinking you know spring classic now with 100% more swooping magpies because you know the Europeans don't have them but you know no cobbles just corrugated asphalt conquer the northern monuments so um yeah from the heights of Wobble to the sand gate seas you know forget the Magila Rosa it's all about the high viz jersey I like it um yeah so Milan sandgate because the only thing harder than the climb is finding a park at Shawncliffe Pier. It's true um so yeah uh maybe the Rondevan Virginia Liege Bagno Liege that's better than the original Giro de Lutwich got a ring to it I like Giro de Lombardy uh Amstel Gold Coaster Aspley maybe not that's out of art uh lower and uh well nudgy wevelgum I like it or Wevelgum Wavel Heights maybe you could work that in there somehow yes but I mean uh you know Brisbane Brisbane robay or strata Strata Bundle so maybe anyhow uh you know I mean the it's a lovely tribute event to the to the spring classics and timing with the the classics happening in in European spring you know like it's our tribute event I mean uh I did suggest the other one was that you know we need we need some actual cobbles in in the Parry Ray for us I'm in Brisbane Rebay this year. Oh well exciting I mean I I think I emailed you my suggestion are we are we in that territory? Technically they might be classified more as a paver but uh the yeah I'm going with cobbles yeah my my suggestion was we'd go for cobble creek mmm we have to work hard on how we include that one there's a cassette there's a gazetted road at the bottom so you can actually get into um yeah you can get out the bottom of of Cobble Creek. So anyhow look did we get through the list of events? Yeah so we've got four more in the oh sorry sorry in the rest of the no that was a very worthwhile tangent I feel um I was gonna say you know what's you know what my number one thing is for events is pun names I mean come on oh I'm with you there tell me yeah look I mean it's uh it's a it's a great way of um bringing the community together celebrating the the history of cycle cycling that we don't we don't have a lot of cycling culture in Brisbane I mean true Brisbane Ray is is is an instant classic.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Well I appreciate you saying that no it is yeah I think look every year I take myself off to to the local bottle shop and uh drink heavily and then after that he starts throwing darts at the map we're going here we're going there no but it's a ritual before the spring classics start to to acquire a suitable range of Belgian beers and so you know that's all part of it too but it is a special time of year and I guess um uh you know not necessarily growing up with it as a kid we always had the Tour de France on in the household but it wasn't you know it was my dad was like any great Aussie bloke uh you know would watch any sport but cycling wasn't you know a a passion in the family um but subsequently you know it's such a the thing I love about it is there's so much to it you know different disciplines is the history and the tradition so it's fun to do little things you know uh around things like Roubaix just to it's a bit like Christmas you know to make it special.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

It's um I think uh I I'm actually really looking forward to the spring classics I think Vanderpol just won his eighth cycle cross world title out of Van Art's going to be you know on the bounce back comes spring classic time and you know it's gonna be on for young and old I as every year I hope for rain during Parirobay.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Bring out the mud and the and the cycle cross is all well as an event organiser Rubet's the only one I don't worry about with the weather because if it rains it's perfectly on brand right um as a photographer though yeah well that's true no camp yeah um but I think the cool thing about the classics is it's at the start of the season. So you've got the mountain bike world cups kicking off um you know the calendar's changed a little bit over the years but I do remember watching Alpstat and some of those early um XEO World Cups and the downhill starting as well around the same time and it was sort of that all that excitement of the of the year getting underway. It's a bit different now with you know the calendars expanded things are pretty commercial so they like to stretch the the season out but it's still to a lot of people it is the start of the of the season you know it's the proper start when when it's business time you know all the stuff beforehand's Mickey Mouse even if there's UCI points involved well one of the interesting things was you know people used to race the point of the spring classics was to train you know like they'd had the winter off and the spring classics were how people got back into racing and people could start the early season races untrained and right into form.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

That's gone. Now that's an A race for Vanderpol the spring classics there's more money on the line there's more eyes for TV you know it's it's uh it would have been an easy win to win the Spring Classics but now there's no you know do they have an off season?

SPEAKER_03 39:28

It's pretty short isn't it yeah I mean TDU's a good example it used to be sort of a bit of an easier race and a a holiday if you were from the Northern Hemisphere come down have some easy racing to to get your legs back under you but now it's super intense and it's just as hard and fast as you know a lot of the other races.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

So were you down in Adelaide?

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Tore down under for those of us who aren't used to TLAs good good point three letter acronyms. Adelaide's great for riding I'd forgotten that it's been a while since I've been down there. I've done some gravel trips a bit of road stuff um there's just so much variety on the doorstep of of the city um and it's just very picturesque as well so I often explain it to people in Brizzly who haven't been uh sort of imagine if there were 20 different ways up Nebo and Glorious and every couple of kilometers there was a little village with a great coffee shop um and then on the backside there was just as many options to get down and then back to back to town. So um it's just the variety down there you there's so many different loops to do um the gradients also are a little bit kinder. So I'm not sure you know whether the southern states got the good surveyors and Brisbane got the the surveyors with a wicked sense of humor back in the day when they were planning where all the roads would go. But you know down there four or five percent is is the standard gradient.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

There's none well the the history of that is that um in a lot of our forestry up here the roads that are there now are legacy of logging with machine. So they would they would fall trees to ridge lines and then sneak them up and then up the ridges so getting in and out um the roads was short and steep. But in the in the earlier logging you know you had horse and bullock. So you you couldn't go up the roads straight up the the ridges and straight up the hills so yeah there you go. And and that's a a a common thing um and you go to a lot of overseas countries and in European climbs that are just lower grades because they were made for horse and cart. So unfortunately there's no way but the hard way when you go to Nebo.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Well the good thing is when you ride in these places the rides feel easy because you're used to riding around here.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Oh that's like when you talked about Nebo it's it's a rider classic it's an initiation if you've done the we've still got to get Lochland on the Nebo I did I did I did suggest maybe we just shuttle him to the top and he can ride down. Because it it's almost as there's a lot of climbing on the way back down.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

There sure is yeah yeah it's it's one of those ones the first few times you do it you think oh yeah great at the top now quite often if I'm really buckled I'll go down the road because it's easier um I've been through there plenty of times trail runs lots of trail runs that go through there but that you were photographed just to be clear. Yeah it weren't doing the trail runs yeah maybe a live broadcast you know on you could do the pod for the reception sucks all I'm hearing is excuses.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

We could we could uh we could uh you know we could cut it together and uh you know it doesn't have to be live that's right yeah we've talked about I really want to do a a B VRT podcast where we're riding along having a chat um just got to figure out something well I know someone who's got all their equipment I something I want to get a uh a quad cycle you know you know like the uh the golf cart four person with did I send you I thought I saw one on marketplace yeah because I could see nearly four of us doing that on the B VRT. I nearly bought it um I also have the trailer which has um the this is all this gears running like out to the trailer right now all the cameras and uh we can sit in the trailer and do at an event post event or pre-event we can we can so maybe yeah yeah I like the idea viewers will see a different if you're watching on YouTube you'll see a different scene uh next time you watch maybe post Brisbane B and E Brisbane Rebe maybe yeah that's bring the trailer to the I'll just halfway along I'll just have the trailer and interview as you go past Vox Pops somewhere at the top of a big hill um we didn't get through your list that's okay that's the best thing about podcasts isn't it um so there's four other events in New South Wales we're finalising the the calendar at the moment so um it's that's a bit of a stay tuned yeah situation. Yep and what is some of your favourite SEQ Gravel rides to that you've done?

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Um it's hard to beat um Booner's great, Scenicrim, uh even Kilcoy's good. I really like Montseldell Road. Um Oppie's nodding. Yeah, that's um I've not done it. I know where it is. Okay, yeah, it's you can link up um to Gymna. It's a beautiful valley, and then a climb up to Gymna. There's the um I'd start at Gymna and go the other way. You've got to get back to the car though.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

No, you just you ride up to Gymna, back down Lindville, back to the car. Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Yeah, Monsel Monserdale's great because you can go to Gymna, or you can head over to um to Linville. Um, or you can even do the big loop, which is um all the way up to the top of the um western branch, which is where the Brisbane River starts. Um and if you're really keen, you can keep going to Nenango that we were talking about before. That's a really cool loop.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Um see I know these places. I've driven in vehicles to all these these places, and I I have I have ridden Eastern Branch Um Road with a bunch of students on a on a trip. Yeah. So I know how pretty the the place is, and I am uh I am itching to get there on a bike on like a less busy schedule and just just cruise through some of these places because it's so scenic. That's what gravel riding's all all about, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:28

It is, yeah. And I think the cool thing is when you know the maybe history's not the right right word, but the pus you've got some perspective about what it is. When you're riding that road, you're crossing a creek, um, you know, I think it's 27 times on the western um branch road, and then you know, that's a that's Brisbane River. So that's kind of cool that you're um, you know, when the penny drops, I've taken my son out there and I'm like, we're crossing the the Brisbane River here, and he's like, wait, what? Um so that gives it some some relevance. Um yeah, that there's lots of great stuff. Um and the you know, it's the whole experience, it's not just the ride, it's the scenery that we're talking about, and then the the country pubs, and the the you always run into characters out there, you know. It's like, you know, how far have you come? You know, where'd you start? How far? You know. I remember um being down at uh a place called Deepwater, which is uh 70k south of Tennefield on on one ride, and um uh we were there at the start of June, and it was it's at elevation, so it's it's pretty pretty cold. This particular day was very wet, pretty miserable. And I um I got a flat tire. I was on my XC bike and couldn't patch it. Um so tried to plug it, that didn't work. Um put a tube in, did the old muesley bar, you know, like the five dollar note trick to to try and make a boot, and that sort of got me a couple of K down the road. And uh eventually I just had to ride the rim for I think it was like 20 20 kilometres, and um we rolled into this little town deep water. It's um it's one, it's got a little um brewery in a in a shed. That's why we'd picked that that destination, a motel and a pub. I think it's two pubs actually. Um and yeah, we rolled in, you know, drowned as as rats, freezing cold, and um uh got to into the locals having a beer and um this this farmer, this old old cocky, we're having a good chat for about 20 minutes, and uh I was telling him what had happened, and you know, I didn't think this guy knew anything about bikes. And next second he says, Oh, I think I've got an old um uh GP um 5000, you know, all weather at a gator skin at home. And I was like, What? So he he disappeared in his U down to his his um shed and 20 minutes minutes later he came back with his tire and it fit on the mountain bike rim and it got me home the next day. It was it was uh you know really, really cool.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Oh okay. Um I'm just looking at you. What's your gravel rider?

SPEAKER_02 47:59

What's your what's your so I'm attractions I I I mountain biking is my preference, but I am a lifelong cyclist, so I will commute, I'll ride in the dirt, now called gravel, it's just branding. Um you know it's true, yeah, you know, and uh I think that it's it's such a great way of building the base activity of cycling, and you know, it's accessible for people. One of the great things about gravel that's so attractive is on these back roads that are gravel, you're away from cars. So it doesn't you don't need to have the skill of mountain biking, it doesn't have to be high consequence, you know, downhill. It's it's just yeah, getting out and seeing the scenery. But I'm interested, you know, what's your definition of gravel? Because it means different things to different people, like adventure bike, a gravel bike, a cycle cross bike, mountain bike, you know, where what's what's gravel to you?

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Well, for me, before gravel bikes were a thing like we were talking about earlier. Um, you know, if there was a road, you go and ride it. And I remember doing um Audax rides or rides with mates, and so I had a few mates who were into you know longer, longer stuff that sort of become more popular. I always thought they were crazy. Um it's an age thing, mate.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

You mature into gravel and long distance marathons.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Um but I remember the the chat would go around and be like, this is a ride for a 28 mil tire, and so that was that's what we rode if we were doing smooth gravel, and if it was rough, you'd ride your mountain bike. Um but I was also the guy on the group ride who'd be you know, I'd see a tiny bit of single track off to the side of the road, and I'd be, you know, off the road and onto that, and everyone would would think you're crazy. Um but I think the thing for me is it keeps it fresh, right? If you're just riding one discipline, um it's easy to get it to get stale. Um and it makes you feel like a kid, especially when you're riding something new. You know, you're like, oh, where's this go? And so it's hard to beat that feeling, you know. If you're doing for me, Nudgy Beach is probably my go-to road loop, and I've done it millions of times, it's still great because it's off the road, and you know what you're gonna get, but there's nothing beats going somewhere that you haven't been before, where you've got to you know look at a map before you go, you're looking at heat maps to see if things can connect up. So the experience is actually not just the bike bit, it's the the other stuff around it, you know, the planning, where are we gonna stay? What's the best pub in town? What beers have they got in tap, you know, how what how big are the the chicken palmies there? You know, what toppings do they do? It's all that all that sort of stuff which which adds on to the actual riding experience, you know. I believe they call that the spirit of gravel.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

So do you do you what's your take on some of these uh events now that are becoming uh the there's pros involved and there's drafting and you know like the a lot of the uh the gravel you see in the state like there's a gravel world champs now. Yes. You know, it's it's I think what's your take on that on the racing of gravel? Is it is it detracting? Is it building? Is it just something separate to the the the the core experience of what gravel is to you?

SPEAKER_03 51:13

It's a good question. I think there's bits that are uh it's it's a cop-out answer. There's good bits and bad bits, right? Like the the good bit is that it that's where um America to the to a large extent is focusing its budget. Um so in terms of the where the money's going at the moment is gravel. Road racing seems to be dying a bit over there. You know, XCO and XCM's not um as popular either as it used to be, getting a lot of pros who were mountain bikers, you know, someone like Payson McKelvin, um he's and Cole Patton, you know, these guys were mountain bikers and now they're gravel pros because that's where the the big contracts are and they're earning pretty big money. So it's cool that the industry is sustaining you know jobs for riders and support staff and people who work in marketing and product development. It's always sad when other things fall out of favour, or you know, road racing, for example, it's sad to see races like Tour of Utah disappear. Um it's cool that there's still things like the Donneville Classic, you know, Leadville, even though that's kind of a gravel race now, they're they're still kicking. But they've banned drop pass, it's back to mountain bike roads now at Leadville. Um so I think it's I I like that it's something new, and I think people like to hate, right? So it's easy to say um, you know, to focus on the the negatives. Um but it's it's sport needs to to change, um, and it's cool to see new aspects of it, otherwise we'd get bored because it'd just be the same thing all the time.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Yeah. I think that um the growth is in participation. Like I wouldn't like to see um you know gravel racing take over the spirit of gravel participation, like like it's the adventure, it's going somewhere new. Whereas I think you know, some of that the prose, it's about the prize money, and it's not then they're not out there enjoying themselves. It's it's a professional race, you know, there to do a job.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Well, I think it's potentially the more dangerous than other forms of racing, right? It you basically it's it's road racing on gravel. So I don't know if if you guys have done that, but it's actually really sketchy riding in a bunch going really quickly like off-road. If if the road is um, you know, loose over hard and you've got some descents and corners, um, it's easy to rail it when you're out there feeling good. You know, you've got your mojo a bit like when you're on the mountain bike. Um, but if it's your job and you have to be at the front of the race on a day where maybe you don't feel like it, or you've got a couple too much PSI in your tire, the consequences I feel are a lot more than compare it to an XEO, for example, where there's sure there's some really big technical features, but um there's a bit more space between riders, you get a chance to practice the the course lots before the race. Um yeah, it's I reckon it's pretty dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

There's some interesting discussion in the pro Peloton at the moment about reducing speeds, limiting gearing. Yeah, um because you know the uh descents are now um places to make a gap, to make a difference. To you know, people are attacking on descents that never used to happen. And so, yeah, the the you know, someone had a uh one of the pros had a pretty nasty hundredk an hour crash just last week.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Yeah, was that in Middle East somewhere? It was pretty pretty horrific.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Yeah. And one of the things that uh I've noticed with the actually I think it might have been the gravel national titles up at uh Noosa a couple of years ago, you can pick the fit roadies and you can pick the mountain bikers. Yeah, there aren't really gravel specialists yet. But um, yeah, the you can see people who who cannot go round corners on a on a gravel bike at speed and it's like oh yeah. But I I think that's that's at the front though. Once you you know a few a few you know 20 or 30 people back, it's not it's not that just you know, so people don't freak out, it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

No, that's it, right? Yeah, that's we're talking about the pros in the front. Like the Lifetime Grand Prix series, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Well it uh no, it's I I would say it's not just pros, it's the front. Yeah because people yes, the pros are going really fast, but there's people still attacking at the front of any race. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Well, I remember doing Nusur and Juro gravel um a couple of years ago and and racing it, and there was a section of single track that we were flying through, and I mean I knew the trail because I'd ridden it a few times, but um there were water bottles going everywhere, there were bikes going everywhere, there were tires exploding, it was absolute carnage, and I remember thinking this is fun, but anything could go wrong in any moment.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Um the the worry I'm not too worried about my own incident, I'm worried about someone taking out my front wheel, you know. Yeah, that's it, right? Just smack on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

But when you're riding that close to the person in front of you, sometimes you can't see the route or the rock. So there is an element of you you have control, but not that much, you know. You've almost just got to commit and do the best you can looking ahead, you know. Um it's a skill to look through the rider in front of you. Yeah, but you don't see everything right, especially when you're at max heart rate and seeing spots.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

I I uh I remember the start of the um the single track section off um I think the one you're talking about. Yeah, there were flat tires and there were bottles and yeah, it was it was uh it was great time because as a mountain biker, I'm like, yeah, but I'm running an extra 10 psi on my tyres, so I can hit anything. I'm like, I'm not gonna get a flat. There were people who got flats because they were running you know 35mm tires at 20 psi, and I'm like, pfft amateurs.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

How much does the noosa in Juro should transition between fire road and single trail? Is there much single trail at all?

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Well they they ran two events. There was the Nooser in Juro and then there was the Noosa Gravel, and one year the gravel was the state ty uh state national gravel champs, but I think they didn't run the gravel last year.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

It's run by NX Sports now, so the same guys who do a lot of the triathlons and tour to Brisbane. Yeah, there's no swim leg though. There is some walking, I can tell you. Yeah, they do gravel and mountain bike. The mountain bike trails, they don't use Tawanton or any of those trails, so they're pretty you could ride all of them on a gravel bike. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Yeah, fair enough. They're not a lot of fun. There's some, there's one, there's a couple of downhills out the back that are quite uh technical and challenging on a on a gravel bike, but it's uh it's not a couple of creek crossings too in that.

SPEAKER_03 57:59

Yeah, there can be. I mean the Nooserinho used to be around in the 2000s, and it one of the reasons it stopped was because it used to rain every year. So I mean it's rainforest and beautifully green, you don't get that without a bit of precipitation. So yeah, invariably there's some some creek crossings and some some mud around. Oh it's still a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

I mean, the um I think that year that the National Titles was up there, it rained. Um and maybe two years ago it rained again, and it's yeah, but that's part of the challenge. But they have to re-route the whole course because sometimes parts of it are unrideable mud, like knee-deep, just swamp. But uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

It's always a head cracker when you're like if you're racing or you're somewhat competitive lying in bed, you know, the night before the event, going to sleep as the rain's hammering down outside. It can either yeah, put you off, or you'd be like, oh, the half the field's gonna be defeated already, you know. It just depends what what mood you're in. I did it with rim breaks.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Yeah, right. Just commit. I mean, but the thing is it's like, oh well, I know that I'm gonna be uh pulling the chain off and fully degreasing. I'm gonna be like pulling out the bottom bracket to empty the water out of the frame. I'm gonna, you know, like and it's like, well, that means new brake pads.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

I was gonna say that's the thing, isn't it? It's fun to slide around in the mud, but you can just hear the dollars, you know, disappearing as with each pedal stroke.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Well, this is why I I actually like cable drivetrains, not battery drive trains. Because you know, one XT uh wireless derailer is uh you know almost three cable driven derailers. It's like these are consumable parts. Um I've done it single speed a couple of times. Um or you know, I've got the luxury of like, well, I'll be taking the training bike this time. Just for those reasons.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

Might be time to get the single speed out again.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

Well, there's a couple there's a double header cycle cross round at Walloon June or July this year. Okay. So it's time to put drop bars back on the uh on one single speed.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

The last time I rode it was the 2016 Epic, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

Yeah. Has he done cyclocross at Walloon before? I've ridden I've raced my cyclecross bike there on I think at least three occasions. But no, they haven't. There's no that we had a one year we had a cyclecross class. I think there were three of us. But um, it's perfect for cyclocross. It's flat, it's hard. Guaranteed podium.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Sign me up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Well, it this we're talking a long time ago, and yes, but uh yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that runs. But uh, you know, cyclocross. This is a JRs.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Yeah, JRs at Walloon. So very cool. That's a good spot for it, I reckon. Is this part of a Queensland drive?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

The national series, like a double header of the national series. There you go. Um, I think the challenge will be for people how they can make it not too much single track because you need passing, you know. Um that's a good point. And uh what's the beauty of a cycle cross race is actually the visibility of it. You know, we ran run at um Murray. Um we've run them at Nunda through Hepatitis Creek or whatever they like to call it. Um what helped it to the that's what we called the creek at um we had it at Ipswich one year and it rained, and yeah, I I think there was um cross connection between the stormwater and the sewer.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Well Nunda's next to the cemetery, so it's an added challenge.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

It's below the water table. I was just gonna ask a couple of uh questions about the your you know moving into more into professionally into event um management and um some of the challenges you might find. I would say a lot of people take for granted how much goes into an event if you don't know the behind the scenes. Are there any things that uh or I guess tell us from your perspective, just how big of a job you've got ahead of you as you take on these new events?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:59

Yeah, I think it's like anything you underestimate how much is involved and um you know when you do something small for the first time it's it it's uh it's it's not that much, but you know, the th the bigger things get. For example, if you run two courses, a long and a short, then it means that you have to talk to your lovely photographer and say, how are we gonna photograph everyone if they're leaving at different times and they're going to different places? So trigger traps. It's um it's just death by a thousand cuts because there are so many decisions um and you want to maintain the experience of the rider. And so I think um the thing that I've noticed, and I guess maybe how I've ended up here, is that um over time event organisers sometimes it feels like they start making decisions for practical reasons or sort of the least path of resistance, and I completely get it because it it's hard and it's easy for me to say because I'm just starting out on my journey and I've still got the enthusiasm. Um but yeah, it's it's definitely you need to care and you need to be to have some empathy. It helps being a rider so that you can go the extra mile and and do the do the special things. Um it's at the moment I'm a one-man band. Um so you know, you're head of every department, um, you're filling out the traffic management plans, the risk assessments, you're working with all the stakeholders and the you're responding to emails with, you know, s someone emails and says, you know, the dog ate my homework or can't make it, you know, or what tires should I should I run? You're wearing all the hats. Wearing all the hats. And um yeah, I mean it's it's it's cool, but um it's sometimes you you get through a day and you've you've hit all your you've got through heaps of tasks, but there's just as many to do tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah, have you been given any advice on how how all those hats are worn on on race day?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

Uh not specifically, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:57

Maybe I should ask. Absolutely. I mean, there's no uh there's no harm in asking people and getting their opinion, and then you you pick from the bits you want. Well that's yeah. Go forward with experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

That's one thing I've learned. I think uh old age helps there, you swallow your ego and you and you ask. So, you know, with getting sponsors and things like that, that's something that I've I've um hit some people up in the industry with more ex um experience than me, and they've been really good in suggesting you know how to how to go about things. The other thing that's hard is is pricing stuff. So I always feel guilty, you know, charging, and events are expensive, like they're expensive to run, but they're also expensive to attend, and it feels like often they're they're too expensive, right? But when you see the back end of it, you you understand where the the cost comes from. Um so that's always a a challenge, and I think you've got to try and strike a balance between delivering a really good day out for people, um, but also covering your costs, and that's you know, that can be a bit um that's something that keeps you up at night, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

For sure, and the all those for goodness gravel of New South Wales, right? So bit of bit of travel for you. Fit of travel, yep. If you have you this is jumping way ahead of you thought of have you got any more ideas rattling in your head of what else can I bring to Brizzy slash SEQ region or abroad?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

Yeah, well I think the the format of goodness gravel at the moment, um, as we were talking off air, is um they go to regional areas where the local government authorities are trying to encourage some some travel and some tourism, and that's great because it gets people to new areas. And a lot of the times the roads out there are amazing. Um they're quiet, the scenery's great, um, and you get to have a beautiful weekend away. I think it's important to keep things fresh, so to move the locations around, and one thing I'm really keen on is going to the best places um rather than necessarily where the the councils want you to go. So So that's a cool opportunity to you know leverage some previous experience and also maybe some new trips. Um, when I bought the business before Christmas, I was already planning a road trip, so I made some adjustments and went to some of the places that are on the calendar, like Orange in New South Wales, which I was really blown away by. I hadn't been before. There's lots of great riding there, mountain biking and gravel riding. Um, but I I think it would be really cool to get um a big gravel event near um Sydney and near Brisbane. So um we've got brown snake gravel, but because of where it is, we can't have a um we can't cater for people who want to race or have a have a time. But maybe if we go an hour outside of Brisbane, we can do something um where we can cater to those needs. So that's all the sort of the things that are bouncing around in my in my head.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

Well, I'm I'm gonna pitch one for you, Stanthorpe, Passion Dale. Bring bringing the passion passionale. More puns. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

You're missing your calling. No, I'm not. It's not my day job. Stanthorpe's great. Um that whole region's yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

I don't want to whine on about it, but uh I guess you would you have to be careful there's a Tenderfield race there as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

I guess it's I I uh it's a little bit further north, but um the the difference is there's a there's a sweet spot where people will travel to that's far enough you can get there in half a day uh and back. But if you're coming for an event, it's far enough that a lot of people will stay. So there's but it's not too far. It can't be a whole day's drive. You have to be able to reach your destination close to a population centre. So you know, these like these it's like a Venn diagram, but it's it's circles of like how far people will travel, where the um where's a town of size that's sufficient to have overnight stay capacity? So it's got to have a couple of motels and a pub, yeah. You know, and that people can get to close to a population center. So um back in the day we had the Mount Perry District Tourist Association. Yes. They were behind the Mount Perry Classic. So it it was the tourist association that ran it. But it it's a it's a long drive and there's nothing there. Everyone had to camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Um, I don't think that that's you know, that's necessarily the market anymore. Um I think, you know, but uh like I say, around Sydney, two, three hour drive. But um I think there's also a risk of um gravel's flavour of the month saturation. So having a couple of core events that are that are yours and you know that are iconic, you know. I'm gonna give you some advice now. Don't go too big too soon, you know, because you know, for for the Southeast Queensland context, you know, two two events like the like the Brown Snake and Brisbane Row Bay, they're very similarly aligned. There's I don't think there's space for more events without starting to dilute that in this region.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

Yeah, so I think it would be something where you might run one one year or and one the next. Um, you know, or you might run a north course and a south course if you keep something in the same location. But you're definitely right, you don't want to have too many things. Um it's too hard to organise, keep track of, and you're you're also going to saturate things. So I think um it's important to yeah, to play the long game, to do the right thing, to find the good locations and deliver a as good an experience as you can for the best value. That's the that's the challenge or the goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

Yeah. So I think um for an event you can build and it's maybe it's a two or three year cycle. You know, the first one's a bit of a pilot, second year all the people that missed out on the going the first time come along, but by the third year, you know, uh people, you know, you know, then it's time to start researching that next place to take that experience, you know. People are pretty fickle.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:01

Yes, yep. Well, and you're competing with um, you know, lots of there's lots of other options out there. Might not necessarily be a gravel ride, but there might be an XC race on the same weekend or you know, something else. So you've got to you've got to keep it fresh and give people a reason to to come.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

It's a challenge to fit with the disciplines. When you're a multidisciplinary rider and you start trying to fit events in, it it becomes more and more challenging. But um uh I have noticed I think overall numbers are seem to be much smaller than these days than than they when there were less events. Yeah. Um the rise and fall of 24-hour racing comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Yeah, it seems like there's spikes though. This uh I I see it in trail running as well, like and you'll see numbers dwindling in some a series that's been around for a while, but then massive amount of people at this other event that's popped up, like novelty, novelty, yeah, novelty, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

People like I mean, one of my major uh goals with racing marathons is to go somewhere new. You know, I I mean I'm I'm questioning, especially as events get more expensive, it's like, well, do I want to do another Nooser and Dura? I've done it for probably the last five years in a row. Is it uh, you know, I I feel I feel chained to the epic. It's it's just such a legacy, you know. I I don't know, I I'd be in the teens for numbers of epics I've done. Um it's like that's in an institution, but at some point I was like out there last year going, yeah, maybe I'd go and do somewhere something else, you know, like just the novelty, the engagement. I mean so last year I went and did um the um Roto 100, oh yeah Black 100 in Red Ruick. I've never done it before, and it was it was amazing. Yeah, they had over 2,000 participants. Wow. So they have uh yeah, that's cool. They have the 50k on the Saturday, and then they have the 100k and the 100 mile. They have a 160, don't they? Yeah, it was 172. Oh yeah, yeah, right. They start at four in the morning under lights, yeah. Yeah, and yeah, I I even the hundred was super challenging. It's it was way harder than the epic, like, because it's so much single track, yeah, and the descending on the uh single track is brutal.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

Isn't it funny when you're considering these events? You're like, let's see how you're looking at the more single track, the better, you know. The on on race day or ride day, it gets to a stage where like, oh god, what I'd give just for a bit of fire trail or or bitumen.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

Yeah, um I did uh uh four hour down in northern New South Wales not that long ago, and I'd forgotten that I'd um uh increased the the pressure in my suspension because I'd done a short course and hadn't hadn't dropped it down. I had to stop at at about 70 Ks out of 90 or something because I'd bruised my hands. Just endless laps of single track. So yeah, careful what you wish for. It's true. But uh I'm gonna go back. I I wasn't I I'd gonna go back and uh do it again and uh with uh understanding of what it takes and what the right setup is so to conquer that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:11

If you're interested, you want to come over it. It's been on my bucket list, yeah. I've meant I've been to Rotoruah, but not for a long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

I've said Rotorua is Whistler for old men. It's great, you can ride lots of places, but it's just doesn't have the consequence of going over to to ride Whistler. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's not interested, mate. Um yeah. Well, there there is an A-line. The downhill track in in Roto, actually, I think they're rebuilding central part of it because it got logged, but it's insane. Okay. Like uh you're like, see that pond, right? And see that amount of dirt over there. Well, that's a takeoff. And that amount of dirt over there on the other side of that pond is the landing, and you're like it's enormous. It it's so big to the casual observer, you don't realise it's a trail. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

What about Queenstown? Is it a bit techier and steeper and is it's I've not been down to Queenstown.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:09

It does have a gravity rep, I think. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

Yeah, yeah, very different. Um, what makes Rotaruva so special is the dirt. It's volcanic loam and it it's free draining, it's got enough clay in it to pack, but it's it's sandy, it's crumbly, gorgeous and moist, and you can shape it into beautiful berms and it packs. And when enough people ride it, the clay it's like you've got a shiny line, it's like a luge. And then once it goes hard, and then it starts to break up, and then holes form, and then the holes get deeper and deeper, and and the holes are rock hard, and then water fills those holes up, and you're riding a jackhammer although the ruts are where everyone else rides. That's that's the that's the motto, right? It's so I I was I was blown away by the change um in the forest. Some of the trails that they age out and they get they get logged, and so they don't worry about they're not always rebuilding the trails there. It's a very different model to what we have in Southeast Queensland, where most of our trail centres are conservation reserves. Um, so they don't necessarily rebuild them to be buff again. And uh some of the trails that had been my favourite and were beautiful things, they're also on the shuttle run. And I went back and it's been many years since I was there, and they were absolutely destroyed, they were unrecognizable and zero fun on a cross-country bike. I was like, oh, that's why everyone's riding the new trails, because these old ones are just shuttled to death.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:42

There you go. What's on your calendar? You I how busy do you think you'll be with these with your plate at the moment with events? Are you gonna be is this full full-time plus for you, do you think, this year coming? Yeah, it's full time.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:57

Gotta stay sane. Yeah, uh the next one is uh Beachworth Um Gravel Classic or whatever it's called. So that's in mid-April. Um I mean the best thing these days, right, is that this counts as a a business trip. Um so yeah, still trying to squeeze in things where I can. Um re research. Research, exactly. TDU was cool, obviously. I didn't get to rattle gravel, unfortunately, but um got around to all the activations and the see what the brands were doing, which was which was really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

Um you missed out on was it Alejandro Valvardi, wasn't he down there? Um Roman Bardet. Roman Bardet, oh sorry, different, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:42

Um yeah, so I think yeah, look, I'll be doing the usals up here in in in uh Southeast Queens and I'll be back to the epic um every weekend or every other weekend. We're out at you know, one of the trails, trail networks around here.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

So and what's your local, what's your or or local or favourite?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:02

Yeah, well, I was talking to this uh talking about this with um my son Ted the other day. Um I think Gap Creek's probably the OG for me, and it's still the one yeah, I enjoy the most, um, even though it's changed you know quite a bit over time. Um got a soft spot for Daisy. Used to live down the road from Bunyar and Iron Buck, so um, you know, it's it's it's different as well, it's good for the skills because it's it's pretty skatey. You've got lots of loose rock there. Used to ride the fully rigid single speed there a fair bit, and that would that would keep you your skills sharp. Um yeah, it's it's uh we've we're lucky, we've got so many, so many areas. I've I've had on my bucket list, um, it's there's probably too many trails to do this now, but to ride all of the trails in one day.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

Um well Anna did uh Anna Beck did an article for A and B where they rode um all of the parks in Burns. And not every trail, but uh yeah, they were pretty broken afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:06

I I'm sure they were. I've seen um seen it done around the world, Durango's a good one. I've seen a few of the mountain bike pros do it. Um so you never know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

His concept the three peaks of Brisbane. Okay. So Three Peaks is an iconic cycle cross race in Brisbane. Yes, yes, another one. Yep. Yeah. So they end up hoofing their bikes up over some enormous hills. So what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:33

Kutha, Nebo. Well, it's whatever, maybe. It's yeah, I could I mean it it feels like it needs something else in there. Well Mount Me, Lacey's Creek. Well, maybe it's it's lookout. Oh yeah, nation and then down the old um downhill track just to finish off.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:53

Yeah, yeah, and well I mean it's gotta be if you're gonna call it the three peak, it's gotta have just about mandatory portage. So there's there's some there's some ways to get to Mount Nebo that are um offensively steep by bicycle. So I I reckon uh something something like uh you know uh start in the C B D, Mount Cravat, cross to Kutha, and uh Nebo the hardest way possible just to you know keep people angry. I don't know whether you'd and finish back in the C B D, why not? Anyhow. Very cool. I don't think um the uh I've done all of Mount Kuthra in a day, all of the single track in Mount Kutha in a day. That's doable. Yep. Um it's a big day out, but um the challenge is that um to do to actually ride all of it, you have to do a few out and backs, and and it's actually the challenge becomes root selection and plotting how to do it. Yes, yeah. Because otherwise you end up here and you're like, oh, I missed that bit down there, and do I do I go back and do it? And what's the best trial in Brisbane?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Well, this this is this is our question to you. Is this like the there's a there's a photography question, the best camera you have is the one that's with you that you brought. To me, it's like the my f I was thinking before when you're saying your favourites, my favorite is the one that's gonna get me fit, and it's the easiest and it's the closest. Um it's it's not gotten me fit yet, but it's getting there. Um and yeah, it's out the door. So it's favorite because it's I'm ready to go. Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't make it the best. That works, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:34

Different reasons, memories, maybe, you know, like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

So what what's do you have uh you're gonna come on, nail your colours to the mast here? Your favourite It's probably got to be rocket frog.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

Lovely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's fun. I've ridden a road bike up at mountain bike down at heaps of times. It's one of my where I took my son riding for the first time, you know, when he started properly mountain biking. Um I'm quite chuffed with that because I had a big hand in realigning it a few years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

So uh um it's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:06

And there's a few little you know features that if you've got some local knowledge you can you can have fun with.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

It's probably in its like it's had it's had many hands on it. It's originally we've told this story a few times it was called Lantana, yeah. And um at the very end, um it used to go straight up the fall line to I think is it Highwood Road or is it Dillon Road at that end? But it was back when Gap Creek Road was dirt too. Was dirt, it was gravel. Gravel. Actually, it was corrugation gravel. Um, but that um that paralleled a fence line, and that was an original, originally a horse trail that you know they used to ride the boundary, so actually um uh Death Adder Um that trail along that fence line there was originally a horse trail as well. Um, but yeah, when um it came across in the process of becoming an authorized trail, that fall line bit had to go um because it was heavily eroded and un unsavable. And so the challenge became to realign the top probably two-thirds, because we had to bring it up out of the creek, and that's why it's on the side hill. Yeah, um, and during the the planning phase of that was the millennium was 2004. Um, but it uh it had been dry, it was the millennium drought, it was dry for years, and uh so yeah, I had no concept of how muddy some of that uh land was because it's the side slope's steep, it's all shaly, and then there's this it becomes much flatter, and like, oh, it's a great place to build, but all of that alluvial dirt just holds water like nobody's business. But in the top end there on the 46 aerial photograph, you could see that there was a uh locking coop and clearfeld into the top end of the um gully, and it was just a sea of lantana, and so one of the compromises, one of the benefits of building a track through there was allowing weed control to get in there. So it part of what selected that route was to cut just straight through a wall of uh you know two and a half meter high Lantana, and we discovered these little pockets of rainforest, um, an ecotone is what they would call it. It's not an ecosystem, okay, but it's a it's a more uh dense closer to the to the creek, and uh so we deliberately took the trail into and under the canopy, back out into the open, uh, and switching across the creek uh right up to the the top end there. And the top end is actually old landfill. There's when you get to the roundabout at uh Dylan Road and Highwood Road, the land just off the roundabout is level, and then there's a steep slope. And if you look from the single track in the start there, you can still see the cars that are pushed into the landfill and domestic dipping that happened in the top end there.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:58

Wow, there you go. Didn't know that. We'd learnt something new. Yeah, so it's um no, so it's a it's I mean it's not the most gnarly track or but it's um yeah, it's it I've ridden it so many times, lots of great memories, yeah. Hard to beat.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:14

So the I was gonna say the uh the top either the top half was constructed by World Trail originally, um, and then um volunteers did redid the bottom, and I think oh gosh, I think trail works have had a go, and I'm I I can't think of who's worked on working on it at the moment, but it's it's had a bit of work recently, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:35

It's evolving and the climbing trails too. Yeah, that's the Krebra climb is really cool now. That's that's really great.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:41

Yeah, um the the current stewardship of that program is is really and that's um uh metre and a half wide uh off-road wheelchair compatible trail. So it's still a disability access, which is great, it's broadening the sport. Um, and yeah, and it's also a great way to get people up and do a loop of a rocket frog. It's yeah, uh it's high on my list of favourites. I won't say it's my favourite, but it's certainly, yeah. Oh, my favourite. Uh depends on the day of the week. Well, what are we today? It's a Friday. It's a Friday. Um look, I love Ferny Forest for the ferns. I love um uh getting up into Mount Nebo on on Light Line Road just for the the epic views, you know. It's not even single track. Um, but I'll tell you what, when you're coming the other way at speed, that fire road seems very narrow. Um Spring Mountain, probably um Pyros on Spring Mountain. That's iconic sand and sandstone with sandstone slabs that you don't see anywhere else. Not super common, is it? Yeah, no, it's um not well ridden. You've got to you've got to learn to ride the sand because it's uh good cycle cross practice. Castle Hill's got a bit of slab. Yeah, really rough down in the creek there. Yeah, yeah. I um I gre uh started in Castle, but it's um I haven't been riding there at the moment because the grass makes me itchy. But um, yeah, I I I I go through phases with Castle. You know, I'll ride there a bit and then I'll be um I'll get dizzy. I i it's very difficult to do more than about 20 Ks at Castle.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:29

It's pretty amazing what they've jammed in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:31

Yeah, it's it's very impressive. I would love to go back and ride Whiteshill as it was, which is not not sanctioned trails, but I grew up next to the reserve. I'd love to just go back to how one of the trails, two bridges, how it was back when I first started riding. Yeah. Sketchy, rocky.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:51

Same as West Mount Cotton, where I explored as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:55

Yeah, and my next favourite that you now also, I don't think, can access is um one of the Tamrookum trails. Oh yeah. Was was running some injuros and stuff there, which was uh super super fun. Yeah. Did you decide what you're you you listed a few days of the week.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:14

I thought you'd work a bad pun in there somewhere that's oh no no, it's serious business favorite trail. Um I I I look I I'm gonna say it's Pyros. Okay. Um because that that's that's where I start uh you know, have really fond memories. I mean, I first rode to White Rock on a BMX, you know, and I was in primary school type thing, you know. So it's um uh I feel a strong connection to place up there and you know, uh go to the top of Spring Mountain and and uh you know I can see oh yeah, that's where you know the house was over there. And um and I remember where the trails used to be because some of those are now grown over. So oh yeah, we used to have a trail up there and it's all gone now, and and and now um Ripley houses. Estate is chewing to the back of um what a trail we used to call North Face, which is because named after a lot of iconic skiing places in Europe, the North Face is always the one that doesn't get as much sunlight, so it's it's more rugged. So that's that's pretty iconic too. I don't think that's really rideable at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

Um yeah, let's say Pyros. Better let Cam go in a minute. Yeah. Um it's been an awesome chat. I think you've got a couple of successful years ahead, I think. Um putting the riders' experience at events as the four, you know, the foremost at your events, and I think with your obviously with your marketing and pun experience, I think he brings a certain gravel task to the top.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:45

Yeah, well Oppie, have you got your resume handy, mate? Because we're hiring tonight. Is that a position? Uh no, it's been great to to um to be on. Thanks for having me and to to share some stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:01

I'm looking forward to seeing you at the uh the Hell of the North Gate.