The Electric Poet on Talent, Capital & Staying Power

In this episode, host Jason Cortes sits down with Raymond McSpirit, founder of EV Recruitment and facilitator of EV sector M&A activity. Raymond brings a rare dual perspective on capital and talent, sharing his views on where the EV ecosystem is headed and what it takes to succeed in a turbulent market.

What We Cover:

• Raymond’s journey into the EV space and the founding of EV Recruitment
• Advice for students and early professionals trying to break into EV
• Why trade shows and in-person networking are the biggest untapped edge for job seekers
• The challenge of attracting and retaining top talent in a market facing hiring freezes, funding gaps, and fatigue
• A breakdown of the EV value chain—from OEMs to infrastructure providers to technology innovators
• The evolving role of CPOs (Charge Point Operators) and the hurdles they face in achieving profitability
• Why “not all money is good money” when it comes to capital, and how patient investors can make or break growth
• Trends in industry consolidation, creative deal structures, and new opportunities for companies positioning themselves strategically

Raymond also previews his work in M&A origination, supporting CPOs and investors with creative solutions to align capital, portfolios, and long-term growth.

Transcript

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In this episode of Field Frequency, I sit down with Raymond McSpirit, industry recruiter and market connector to talk about what's really happening behind the hiring freezes, funding gaps and fatigue spreading through the EV ecosystem. From guiding first time candidates into the space to orchestrating off market &A deals for CPOs, Raymond brings a rare dual lens perspective on capital and talent, shifting value chain, the quiet consolidation wave and why not all money is good money and a market still finding its footing. Tune in now. All right, welcome to Filled Frequency. I'm joined today by Raymond McSpirit. Glad to have you on the show, Raymond. Jason, I appreciate you bringing me on here, Yeah, well, we'll give the audience a rundown of who you are and what you do. Yeah, absolutely. you know, I've been following your journey since, you know, Autel and love what you guys are doing over there. Love all the action that's going on in the, you know, O field service space. You know, probably one of the most important areas I see, but a little bit about, you know, myself. You know, I started a company called EV Recruitment three years ago. Brought a lot of knowledge from, you know, past experiences in technical industries, other markets and, you know, um really got passionate about the space and understanding all the key stakeholders and man, I live, and breathe clean energy these days. So excited to chat with you about it. Good. you transitioned into the EV space. Why don't you, you know, tell us what that journey, the beginning of that journey looks like and, what was the catalyst behind all that? yeah, for sure. First and foremost, mean, I think there's a lot of people that have different driving factors and circumstances on how they arrived in this space. for me, spending many years in recruiting different hard tech environments between industrial power electronics, fuel cells. aerospace components, know, cables and connectors used for data centers, to then also get in some exposure in infrastructure, really got an understanding of what a lot of the disciplines and areas of subject matter expertise ultimately culminate into this, you know, EV ecosystem. When I started my recruitment firm, you know, first three and a half years ago, I definitely wanted to align myself with, you know, two things were part of my guide. It was, know, one, know, align myself with an industry that's going to make an impact. And then two, align myself with, you know, an industry that is going to be experiencing a lot of growth and, you know, a lot of new challenges, which subsequently would, you know, create, you know, fun opportunities and experiences for me. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a great, great ride the last couple of years. So, you know, tell me about, you know, what was the catalyst to uh founding EVR? Let's talk about that. tell me specifically about, you know, we see what brought you into the space. What was the catalyst to founding EVR? Yeah, so, you know, first I was, I just loved what was going on in the, you know, EV markets. You know, I'm a big fan of, you know, different vehicles and, uh you know, I personally had a Mustang GT and, you know, for me, when the Ford Mach-E came out, I was like, man, you know, know, classic meets like futuristic. Like I love the initial, you know, overall, overall vibe and the technology. I was also, you know, like I said, recruiting and water resources. So we were working with a lot of clients oh out in California. That's where lot of interesting projects were doing, know, pump stations, know, dams, water, you know, reuse facilities, oh other recycling kind of technology manufacturers out there. And then, you know, I kind of stumbled into a unique candidate that had some program management experience in EB and had spent a lot of his time in these you know, big substations that were supporting, you know, some large dams out in California. And after just kind of speaking with him and learning about his experience there, like, it just got me interested to learn a little bit more. you know, while I still have, you know, my focus in water resources, I spent a lot of time just, you know, reading about the industry, you know, looking at where, you know, the trends, the innovations were occurring. And then, You know, it turned out that he had a unique set of skill sets that were a great fit for one of my first clients in the space, Proterra. So, you know, we, a lot of us know Proterra, you know, at the time they had a energy division internally that, you know, you know, to bring it full circle, I'm working with now as a client that spun off into its own fleet focus charging as a service company called Camber. everyone go check out getcamber.com, know, Brendan Harney leading the charge over there. Great guy, great core team. So yeah, started working with Brendan and got to understand that like, you know, while, you know, they do a lot of manufacturing and you know, the batteries and the buses at the time, they had to ensure that kind of quality control of a lot of their installs. I think at one point they were one of the largest like DC fast charging. you know, networks at the time or did the most amount of installs. And, you know, Brendan's team was responsible for doing that work, you know, playing EPC, doing the planning, you know, doing some of the permitting. So, you know, jumped in with him and, you know, started my first search there and, you know, one thing led to another and now we have over 200 clients we're working with from all different areas. And yeah, it's been fun ride. some good solid growth, you know, in that short period of time. Appreciate, you know, you co-learning in the background on how this came to be. We've all kind of got our own origin story as it relates to entering in this EV space. But to that end, you know, entering into the EV space, you're leading a recruitment firm, you must get a lot of outreach from early grads, early professionals. How do get into the EV? How do I break into EV? I know, you know, I get that myself, especially, you know, from just different interactions that I've got going on and folks asking, how do I break into the EV? What do you tell them or where do you even tell them? Where do you point them? How do they begin? What's that look like for great question. Love that. A lot of my direction is guided by my experience with the space and recruitment in HR overall. However, I do really enjoy the mentoring and looking out for people that are proactive and seeking my console. you know, came from a family where I'm oldest of four, you know, spent a lot of time, you know, mentoring folks, mentoring young kids, you know, still do that today. I was blessed to have a lot of, you know, powerful mentors in my life and, you know, um had folks that gave me time and direction when, you know, they had nothing to gain from it. So I loved an opportunity when, you know, if I can't help someone out with know, position, least, you know, give them a few pointers and I kind of created a, you know, share it with, you know, family and friends, kids. You know, it's a little bit of a mix of motivation, reality and tough love. think that. You know, today a lot of, you know, the younger generation, you know, they want a lot of opportunities to kind of come to them, you know, just how I think society has been set up. Everything's kind of being put in front of them, you know, whether it's marketing, whether it's social media, you know, a bunch of drivers there, but, you know, they're, find a lot of them, you know, are sometimes, you know, less proactive, right? Maybe they'll apply to a bunch of jobs and thinks, you know, that that's what's going to get it done to get their, you know, dream job. um So, you I say, hey, go out there and learn, you know, go, go, you know, you guys are field frequency, right? Go, go out there and test the frequency of the EV field. So, you know, one of the, one of the things I do is I'm like, hey, you have all these great, you know, industry trade shows, right? You're studying um electrical engineering and you like manufacturing, like go to the Novi Battery Show, right? You know, cheap, cheap ticket, you know, you have the whole exhibitor list. Click around the exhibit list. See what interests you. See what kind of catches your attention. You know, go to the booth, know, shake hands. know, most of the sales folks are open to a conversation. You know, sit down on a panel and... You know, it starts with just forming an understanding of the market and so you could hone in on what you like. And I think ultimately, especially when you know, you're a recent grad, you know, it's one thing if like you're an executive or a VP, sure, like temperament and overall outlook and soft skills are extremely important, but you know, even more so than, you know, you're, you know, engineering or, you know, educational experience. You don't have experience. You just have a piece of paper. So, you know, they're going to judge for, you know, what's, what's your potential and potential, you know, is, is really rooted, I think in intellectual curiosity, kind of being open, oh you know, thinking outside of the box. So, you know, I like that recommendation. And I've also been like very surprised with, you know, how exciting and how innovative and how impactful the clean energy landscape is that there's not more college students at these trade shows, right? Like, don't see, maybe you see like a group getting walked around by the producers because it was some kind of press thing, but like, I'm always shocked. And I think anyone that's listening to this and takes this advice, that's a huge benefit, right? You know, if you could stand out and you could separate. Now imagine you go to that show and there's 20 companies you want to work for. You're not going to say, hey, take my resume. You know, you're going to learn about them. You're going to relate to them. You're going to ask questions. You're going to look up recent press releases. And then you're going to take that information. And then when you apply to a job there and HR is interviewing you, you're going to be able to talk about it. Oh, I already met. You know, John, you know, I met, you know, your engineering leader sat in on this panel, instant top of the pile. It doesn't matter how the rest of the interview goes. You instantly have an edge. And, you know, then that also creates, you know, just, think salesmanship overall in the right way is, is important whether you're in sales or, you know, you're an engineer trying to push your, you know, idea through your project manager, trying to influence a stakeholder or, or you're on oh you know, your job search, trying to, you know, sell, sell yourself to, to a new employer. So, you know, you could always just, you know, go seek out who the hiring manager is. Hey, I applied to this job. Um, I didn't hear anything back from HR. Um, just wanted to let you know, I stopped by her booth or even if you don't use the trade show thing, you could still say, how I was looking into this new product you launched. actually took a course on this. Um, you know, would, would love the opportunity to be considered a candidate. And you know, that. m It's not going to happen with one of those. You got to do that 100 times. then, you know, once it's going to click and all you need is it to hit once, then you got your job. And more importantly, you got the job you went after and you want it. wasn't just the one job that responded to you. you know, I think it's everyone has the opportunity, you know, and in an age of impersonalization and automation and mass outreach and spam calls now more than ever, like genuine in-person, you know, interaction. um Is going to stand out so lean into that you know those are going to be skills You're going to need to use in other areas of your life and other areas of your career regardless of the discipline So yeah, just just just go after it go get it Some good insight and good guidance for those that listen, take that into account and follow that advice. That's really good, Raymond. Looking at this space, you're talking about the dearth of new talent. It's almost like folks like me, I've been in this space for eight years. In that short eight years, it's... It's short, I guess, from one perspective, but from the other perspective, it's not so short because it's like one to two years in the EV space is almost like three to five years in terms of the way the technology, just the whole industry as a whole is shifting forward constantly. so, for those that are new into the space, two to three years of experiences can feel like 10 years just because of the change. mean, when I kind of reflect on my journey in the space. It's been, you know, there's been divergence of path tied to reductions in force or instability behind companies and not knowing is this, are the doors going to stay open or are they not? just the, you know, the securities that an employee would feel working for a company in a, in a immature industry. And, you know, so many things. So, you know, I guess cutting to the chase. newcomers without any background, they've got to catch up. They've got some, you know, they don't have the degree of, you know, kind of institutional knowledge that they've been gathering. They've come in maybe from SAS or they've come in from other parts of technology. They've come in from a completely different industry. How do they catch up? You know, how do you help them look, if they're a serious candidate with an EV company, how do you kind of help them to, what it's going to look like? How do they catch up? would still kind of classify to me as, you know, just giving someone the right direction and, you know, but for how the external recruitment side works, a lot of our engagements. uh our clients are coming to us with folks that like really have the experience or it's like an area of transferability that's like interesting for example like one of my clients that's an L2 multifamily you know charging as a service provider you know when they were launching into new markets you know is actually better that you know we went after candidates without EV experience so That was just part of like, you know, because there wasn't too many in that space. you know, they needed certain kind of, you know, sales profile. They had a certain kind of function within a company, an AE versus BDR, SDR. that was selling to certain customer base. as we're building our searches and thinking outside of the box, I propose to them, hey, what if we get somebody that was selling, it's a solution sale, educational sale, like some kind of smart access locker selling to REITs or multifamilies, or somebody that was selling Siemens, like smart building management systems. And in those cases, it even turned out to be a better fit. that with you know one like in innovation curves like this where there's constant change and constant you know improvements and iterations there's also a benefit of coming in with a fresh look so instead of viewing it as like man how am I going to overcome this mountain all these people have experience I come in with like I'm bringing a new perspective and and we've seen this we've seen the giant, you know, EV charging companies or, you know, the alternative battery chemistry companies that, you know, two, three years ago, you're like, man, those guys are Titans are going to remain. you know, they came and went and then there's new companies that are coming up and are able to bring in other experiences and those lessons that they saw from a distance and apply and are taking market share and are making a name for themselves. So whether it's a company or an individual, like, you know, just view it as a positive and you know, you will also be able to see like, you know, guys that were only in it for three years, even though it seems like a lot, are making moves, are making an impact. So, you know, to me that's even better because it's not like one of these old guard industries where it's like, man, like, you gotta like work 10 years before you could like touch this account or you could do this, like. with all the fast changes going on, I think it's more like a positive. you know, look for those positives and where those positives kind of transfer and where you're going to attack. Don't overwhelm yourself by thinking it's working against you. Some of what you just said there ties into a question that I wanted to ask you about, you know, how your firm is working with, you know, everyone in the value chain. to ask you something about that here in just a moment, but before we get too far, kind of into what it looks like to align talent with, you know, a company's unique needs before we get there, I want to ask you about something that really it ties into a broader conversation that's being held. among people in the EV space that have been around for five to 10 years or so, or maybe even more so, kind some of the round the vets of the industry, if you could reframe it that way. But what I wanted to talk about is there's a growing fatigue in the EV workforce, and it stems from several things. It's kind of some of the early entry players, I guess what we could call legacy firms. that are going through reductions in force. Startups are burning lean. Employees are feeling like commodities and just an unstable system. We just saw a reverse stock with charge point. Obviously, that signals things to the market. A number of things that that could say. anyways, employees feeling like commodities in an unstable system. How? How do we establish trust between employers and talent in the space, which is a space still trying to find its footing? Yeah, lots of layers with that question, but I think, you know, how I maintain that or try to do as a facilitator, just like what really, aside from like, you know, working with these companies and what they do, you know, what's my actual job? It's, you know, to support these companies on these unique positions, go out to market and find the perfect fit, but facilitate. you know that fit in a timely, you know, accurate process. So, you know, for me and how I run my shop, it's like, I want to be overly transparent, right? When I'm talking with, you know, hiring managers, you know, and new clients, I'm always like, you know, what are the five reasons why someone should join? And then, you know, there's always another side to the coin. You know, what is challenging about this company? You know, what is... you know, what would somebody need to know if they weren't signed up for it, they weren't going to be happy. So, you know, for me, you know, I try to do my job in this by, you know, providing as much detail and essentially just being like a transparent facilitator of information, highlighting things, pointing things out and, you know, to really bring these two parties together. And it's been working. think, you know, just overall, like, You know, lot of those clients that I have, even that it's, it's almost like I was talking to this with, with an executive recently, the companies that are doing the best right now are even doing some of the least amount of hiring, right? They like. They have a good project development pipeline. They already have a lot of orders for their chargers. They're backlogged. They're at capacity. So a lot of them are using this opportunity to kind of just reset and refocus. And that does include laying some people off. I think that... in any company, you hear it all the time, people that were so loyal for so many years, all of sudden just get let go without any notice. And I don't think that... know, necessarily just related to EV. I think it's just related to kind of, you know, our society and how, you know, corporate businesses operate. So that's always going to be there. But yeah, it's been a lot more challenging within this space, right? You you've... you know, lot of companies have come and gone. you know, folks need to know, like understand that, you know, they know what they're signing up for and they kind of have to be ready for anything. Now on the other side. You know, candidates are also just as opportunistic. I hear the same thing from, you know, hiring managers, man, like I had this guy for a year and a half, we gave him everything he wanted. We put him on this path, we gave him more experience. And then all of sudden he comes and, you know, he says, you know, he's put in his two weeks notice, right? She says, you know, I'm leaving tomorrow, right? So I feel like that, you know, is, is, is been happening on, both sides, but I also see that, you know, We see the average employee tenure is going down. It's getting shorter and shorter. We're seeing more consulting opportunities, more project-based work. We're seeing a lot of companies that, whether it's for a cost reason or for another reason, are you know, maybe no longer looking to have a big workforce that's vertically integrated and instead want to remain lean and focus on, you know, a theory I have with the new guys is like, you know, partner integration, you know, making sure that they have, you know, just in time supply chains, making sure they have, you know, not an internal team, but regional partners. So I think, you know, when you think about like the brand names or the big charging companies, some of their shortcomings, like do create opportunities for new players. think companies like, you know, fielded advantage is one of those that's growing and the space is growing that's more serving those people. in any market though that's going through this much growth and where you're seeing pullbacks and consolidation, yeah, there's going to be less seats for the amount of people that are in it. That's just a decision that you have to make. And I think it's the best to always kind of keep your options open. Not that like always be interviewing, but like, you know, constantly like, you know, take the time to reassess what other industries could I look for? I mean, that's also moved out, you know, top performers from the space, right? Like, so for... You know, especially for, you know, shithouse, excuse my French, like sales guys, right? You know, guys that, you know, we're, clearing, you know, X amount where, you know, 40 plus percent, you know, 60 % of their, you know, OT is commission. Why would they step into an environment where they can't even hit, have confidence in the market, even giving them the ability to hit their numbers. you know, unrelated to their own ability. you know, I've also experienced some candidates that are like, and I'm going into battery storage, you know, I'm going to move some battery storage sales or, you know, I'm going to move into, you know, this, this kind of UPS system that's you know, focused in the data center space or something like that. So, you know, we're definitely are losing some good people as well. But I do think there's, you know, enough opportunity out there, you know, for you to kind of pick your angles, just kind of stay prepared, stay ready, you know, you know, what's your signing up for. And yeah, it's tough though. It is tough. I want to move into kind of a broader industry discussion here in just a second, but you you're touching on maybe some questions that the audience may have, especially for those that are outside kind of looking in on the EV space. Your firm works with everyone across the EV value chain. Given that you've learned a lot, you learned across the different roles in the space. How do you define the role of different stakeholders across the ecosystem? Yeah, it is fascinating, right? So, you know, I could break it up into like three initial kind of, you know, pillars, you know, the manufacturers, you have the infrastructure companies, you have the technology companies, and then, you know, you could put a fourth class in there, like the capital players, right, you know, the the financiers and, you know, the investment banks and the P folks, but, you know, within those buckets, there's so many different companies, right, like, you know, from the manufacturing side, just starts with looking at the OEM, looking at the end product. So although we're EV recruitment, like now a lot of our business is in uh battery storage, so very much adjacent. So you look at a battery storage system, you look at a DC fast charger or a variety of the electrical vehicles out there. Most people outside of the industry, they could only point to a few of those within each category, but there's a whole army of and a whole lot of innovation and companies that are supporting those. that's what they call the supply chain, right? So you go down the supply chain, you have tier ones, have tier twos, have even distributors, you have other suppliers, contract manufacturers. So you take that vehicle apart, there's gonna be somebody that's manufacturing the cells in the battery, someone that's assembling them, somebody that's manufacturing the wire harnesses, designing the power electronics, the DC to DC converters, know, the cables, the connectors, the bus bars, the other components, right? So there's so many companies that, you know, focus and specialize in those areas, you know, where you could look at. you know, from the infrastructure side, right? You know, have all these different, you know, you have EPCs, like other kind of turnkey guys, you know, just pure construction guys, you know, folks that are just specialized in the operation and maintenance. You know, then you got, you know, companies that are doing a charging as a service kind of model. That's a whole different topic. There's so many different variations, some that are just focused on the fleet, some, you know, that are just focused in, you know, certain kind of CPO markets, grocery stores, retailers, interstate corridors, the CPOs I would put in there as well. then obviously on the technology side, lots of different SaaS companies out there. You know, I wish we would recruit a little bit more in it. But, you know, we have had some pretty interesting clients in that space. I love the innovation that's going on there and the tools that are being created. Right. You know, I'll shout out to a couple of companies that I've really admired following their journey. like, you know, Monterra, know, really cool site design software where you just kind of tag your charger stock, your labor rates, your power in it. spin out a design, like how cool is that? Instead of having to spend all this time doing semi-accurate preliminary designs with an engineering team, you could use that to enable your proposal. Or there's other companies out there that are trying to focus on the O challenges, right? Or even for site selection, due diligence and utilization forecast. So there's a whole variety of companies. And I think even when you get experience in one of those areas, it is adjacent to other high growth industries because the lower tiers, right, and I saw this with, you know, some of the, let's call them like, you know, high price point, high performance, strong IP tier twos. Like, let's just talk about the DC to DC converter companies, right? you know, there was a lot of innovation going on there. You know, the big OEMs were looking at considering speccing them in, and then it kind of came down to it's like, this is a nice to have. So companies like that now are just pivoting themselves in the data center. So I think the core kind of technology and solutions that, you know, folks in this industry you're providing, I do think it's still going to set you up and give you options if you want to move into another high growth market. yeah, it's been, you know, and then even on the battery storage side, you know, we can get into a little bit later, but you know, we're underneath, you know, company that I started to call the MFG2.co, know, getting in, you know, very in the weeds with, you know, what's it like to scale up a manufacturing operation. So we love working with. foreign direct investment, international companies coming in here and looking to make a difference in the US market, give Americans jobs, pay American taxes. And that to me is so cool. So to see those companies and how we're helping them is I put together packages of subject matter experts and executives and we're helping companies build facilities, do site selections, localize their supply chains. I'm kind of acting as like a project manager, so to speak, to get an understanding of what they need, recruitment included, and some other areas and really helping them out. yeah, there's so many different companies in pockets out there. And one of the things that I found, like I'm so blessed that I get like exposure to all of this. Like every day I come across a new client that has like something a little bit different than I thought everyone else in that area did, right? So it's cool to see how companies are differentiating themselves and there's still a lot of new, you know, market players out there. So yeah, it's a, it's an interesting market, you know, lots of different disciplines intersecting and that's, that's what makes it fun. Yeah, you know, can tell in the years that you've been in the space, you've gained a lot of institutional knowledge because you're, if we were trying to unpack all the things that you alluded to from supply chain to the site acquisition, to the companies that are spinning up, you know, products and solutions that streamline them, you know, to move the needle forward as an industry as a whole, you've, you've said and shared a lot. I said, wanted to kind of move into a broader industry discussion, but I think we should narrow it down almost to a specific segment of that space. you alluded to the CPO, so that's kind of where I'd like to go. um Looking at the perspective of the CPO executive, you've been in lots of conversations and you've gotten a peek behind lots of different types of curtains. What are the most significant operational or investment gaps that you've observed when you've been in conversations? What's the perspective of the CPO executive? What's that look like? Yeah, for sure. And to me, I've really enjoyed, you know, getting an insight to that perspective. Because if you at the end of the day, like their perspective, and like their, you know, strategy and challenges are what affects everybody else. Right. So and, and recently, and I could, you know, maybe this would be a good time to, Jason, you know, I've been doing, you know, a lot of work now. in the M &A origination space. That's going to be you know, that's a current business unit underneath EBR and you know, we're spending a lot of time there So, you know, what does that mean? You know that means I'm going out there uh to market. We have around 30 clients right now You know a bunch that are exploring each other, but there's there's a lot of movement in the industry right now So, you know lots of you know companies that are looking to buy sell get creative with different, you know capital solutions SPA EVs, joint ventures, co-developments, strategic partnerships. you know, there's a lot of movement, lots of interesting transactions and opportunities going in the space. you know, I entered that, you know, mainly supporting a lot of the CPOs with this, you know, also, you know, helping, you know, other private equity companies identify different service companies in and out of EV, whether that's, you know, data centers or other battery storage areas, you know, working on a... defense tech client and it's all the same, you know, principles and transferability for me, but really have enjoyed meeting with, you know, I was joking. It's like sometimes it's like we're interfacing with, you know, middle management for recruitment. And then fast forward a few months, like I'm having meetings with C-suite and their private equity on, you know, how do they overcome these challenges and really getting to talk to them. probably some of the most critical stages of their business, right? You look at some of the big companies out there, not gonna name names, but some of them are trading at very low stock prices that have been out there. And what got us to this point, right? It's a bunch of things. think that there was obviously, while we are seeing an uptick in EV adoption, it's not as much as it was forecasted five years ago. You know, you bring in an administration that has a whole different approach, complete opposite take on Neve funding and what the IRA stood for. That's a whole other conversation. I think there were a lot of positives with having Neve and IRA. But on the same time, it got some of the players out of the way that weren't necessarily serious. Like in a way that they were just... You know, see these like groups of guys that got awarded these projects and you look on LinkedIn, it's like they worked in DC and they worked in other lobbying fields. It's like, you know, get out of here, right? Like, you know, they're not caring and putting in the time to actually, you know, operate uh a business which, you know, comes with reliability, which comes with ensuring things are done right, you know, even if you're going extra, you know, having to spend a little bit more to... to make sure your infrastructure's future proof or, you know, making sure everything's aligned there. um So I think with the lower adoption, you know, obviously the, you know, Trump, with Trump and kind of his change in policy, you know, lot of large, you know, investors got burned in the EV space. So I even think. you know, some of the money maybe didn't, you know, wasn't, wasn't as interested as they used to be. wasn't the shiny toy in the room. They saw some of their other, you know, capital buddies got burned on some big deals. Um, you know, supply chain affects that as well, right? You know, all these uncertainties in the supply chain, you know, companies plan, you know, year plus in advance, you know, where they're sourcing, qualifying this product, putting this facility and to, have that, you know, weigh on them where these decision makers are like, we don't know where the tariffs are going to land this month or like last year or next month, like it could change, right? So how could they really strategize around that? So all these factors come together and it created creates an immense challenge. know, you know, different CPOs are, you know, different, different models, and we'll show, you know, different, you know, speed and path to, you know, operating a, you know, profit. profitable station. I'm seeing it could be good companies like three years, site could start turning profitable, other ones it could be five. Some of them are never profitable because they were just put in the wrong locations or have the wrong hardware. So you have a lot of these CPOs that really like that I think have the right models that are mid-size, regionally focused, staying lean, working with partners. they've only have seen a substantial amount of installs for over a couple of year period. So even though they have a very large project development pipeline and a lot of signals between some of the data they're accessing from utilization, forecasting and their historical data, they're like, man, these sites are profitable, we need capital, right? So they go to the, they make their rounds, they start talking to investment bankers. you know, the investment bankers are looking, they're like, well, you know, your whole portfolio isn't, isn't profitable yet. It's like, yeah, but we just got a lot of them in the ground like last year. But you're, you have a lot of inventory that you've been sitting on for a while. What's up with that? Yeah, the industry said it was the right thing to do a couple years ago is, you know, just to save costs. And I bought a bunch of free wire chargers at a discount and put them in a warehouse, but can't use them anymore. So they kind of got caught up in that. And, know, You know, there's opportunists in this space that maybe are a little bit more aggressive from the capital side, right? Where they're coming in and giving these guys crazy terms with all these, you know, with high interest rates, you're throwing in fees, covenants, warrants, and these CPOs and other operators are like, man, not all money is good money, and they don't want to give up an arm and a leg for their business. So a lot of them are, you know, were kind of like taking their time with, you know, exploring the options, see kind of where the dust settled and they do need creative solutions to deliver. you know, after, you know, getting an understanding of those, helps. have a, you know, I studied, you know, energy finance and, you know, had, had a, a partner in a retail business that included a supply chain and warehousing. Multiple storefronts and wholesale accounts. So like I totally you know, I kind of understood, you know from that standpoint and It was so it's so much more interesting to me not that recruitment isn't so what I started doing is going out there and you know One I now am an advisor at this company a US capital um for their clean energy team and supporting, you know, folks in the space, you know, that may need some direction on where to access capital and, you know, so what capital is good capital? I mean, when it comes to startups, it's even tough. We're now talking about like CPOs we look up to are having a challenge. like, unless you're self-funded, hey, I have this software product or like, it's gonna be, it's tough, right? There's not a lot in the VC market going on around this space, right? So, you know, it takes, if you have a good, compelling, you know, story and business and operating model, there is capital out there for you. And, you know, I think we saw some of these cycles in other industries, you know, perhaps, you know, telecom, saw it in, you know, solar. Solars even, some of those sites, like 10 plus years, you're not seeing any money on. So now it's like guys that understand project financing, equipment financing, have kind of patience and are willing to kind of look through and into the details. And that's the domain expertise that I bring them. So right now we're working with a lot of. like you know smaller size you know CPOs that just got going maybe they have like 10 active sites and a project development pipeline those guys can't raise money they've been trying to for like a year you know some of their MSA say they need to deliver their site over 18 months or whatever 12 months and signing and now the clock's ticking well What's a path for them, right? So, you know, I'm working with those guys and I'm like, okay, like, let's carve out a piece of your portfolio, whether it's active sites or whether it's like notice to proceed on, you know, another site or it's just simply like an MSA agreement or it's like a site that's in a strategic location, but you don't want to spend the money on the rip and replace. Maybe someone could pick that up. So I've been going out there and talking to a lot of those companies that are looking for creative solutions and you know, buying or selling, you know, their company or part of their portfolio is, is, is on the table now. And I think, you know, everybody is, is over these next couple of years, you know, every single company, this isn't just the CPOs in this space. You have to be open to, you know, buying or selling your company or part of it or, you know, That just keeps more options on the table. I guess one more note on this. Sometimes it's a two-prong approach, right? You know, one of the strategies I came up with and had got some, you know, buying from some of the leadership team. was like, Hey, you're, trying to raise X amount. Okay. That's plan a, you know, um, maybe what's plan B over three months. Here you have this project development pipeline with certain sites that fit into like, you know, your strategic growth areas. Why don't we like carve out like a few of these sites and like, could just sell them and then you could take that money and then you have cash. You could maybe borrow more against it and and I'm starting to work with them through this and and I think they're starting to understand and and I'm glad I'm getting confirmation that I'm just you know, not some former recruiter That's you know being looked at coming up a strategy that aren't accepted But yeah, found myself into some very interesting rooms talked to just over the last month probably like 20 different, you know private equity, you know, um you know angel investor types that want to get in for the first time you know, bunch of CPOs out there, a bunch of charging as a service companies that maybe want to try their hand at the CPO. You know, a lot of regional installers I found and, and, you know, EPCs and like, you know, certain States, they kind of stumbled into a CPO portfolio, just, you know, the utilities, right? Like they thought that was a natural transition for them. And they're like, they're having challenges. So it's like, great, like, let's get you some cash. Like, let's go find, you know, a partner that's going to take care of your customer that is going to be the best fit for them. And you're, you know, you're, we're going to work out a win-win deal. So, um, you know, I've, found a pretty interesting kind of, you know, angle where I can continue to impact. a lot more companies and just learn the other side, right? Not just the technical, the operational or the human capital side, but to actually understand how the financing and how the capital markets are actually thinking in this industry. So last note on that, I think there's a lot of positive stuff based on the signals that I'm seeing. We're starting to see some companies get some funding in the news, if you you know, active acquisitions going on. and talking to a lot of new well-financed, know, CPO players. So if you're out there as, you know, investor or company looking to, you know, you know, consider a path and, and, you know, what makes sense from either, you know, buying or selling, you know, part of your company or some of your network, you know, feel free to reach out. You know, I love talking about this and, you know, nobody has it figured out. So it's just about, you know, talking to as many people as you can. Everyone's got a little bit of a different perspective and there's truth you know within within everyone's perspective on both sides so I think that's kind of how you have to approach things but yeah man it's it's been fun I like I like this uh direction that I'm taking the business You mentioned something earlier about not all money is good money. There's another phrase, you take the money, take the pain. So stepping away from maybe what is bad money or inconvenient money or money that would align a CPO, whether it's mid-tier or legacy. taking money that wouldn't be aligned with what's best for them. say that you made a comment about some investors in your network having patients. So you obviously are aiming to channel patient money into a CPO. That's where you're taking that is that's the direction you're going. And, when we look at long-term strength, for a CPO, whether it's national or I call them regional. think maybe you, you, if I'm getting the nomenclature right from your definition standpoint, you probably what I would refer to as like a regional CPO that's in a particular area of the country, you might refer to them as a mid-tier operator, whether it's national or mid-tier, where in, in looking at from the perspective of long-term strength in this space, when is, when is, when is the time to get on? on the train, when do you take that patient money and how do you move that forward? you know, or maybe what's the typical profile of the operator, whether it's national or mid-tier? What makes them either an ideal investment target to those with the patient money, or maybe we want to answer it from the other perspective. How does the CPO know when to pursue? Because I would say that probably the regional CPOs and mid-tier operators, would look at investment or even potentials, conversations around it's probably going to be a different conversation, different motivation to that conversation for the mid tier versus the national. That's got more time behind them, other debts. Yeah. Maybe speak to that. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that I mean, not just like, yes, patient money, that's just appetite that like brings someone to the table. But like, what are actually like the dynamics of, you know, the deal itself? So, you know, a lot of mid sized CPOs, right? Like, not to take any, I work with a lot of great bankers not to take anything away from them. But like, they just don't really know like, the nuance and everything about the industry itself. So, you know, they're coming in and they're seeing a down cycle and they're like, man, I'm going to come in here. Like if you want capital from me and like you don't deliver this, then I get controlling stake in your company and you got to pay these crazy interest rates. like these, the CPO operators are like, man, I don't want to sell my whole company. Now we're just, we're just in a little trough. We're just, you know, in a little bump in the road, like I have a lot more value to be realized on my own and in game with something that's already working for us. you know, they are being patient to make sure the right money comes along and you know that that believes in them and is back in them. But it also could come down to the operator sometimes like, you know, we all know the certain business types that want to own 100 % of their company forever at a certain time. You know, maybe you need to give up a little bit of your company. in order to get to a higher, a greater location in the future. and it's also like what, like I'm working with, I guess just a few examples to kind of narrow in. So. oh you know, working with uh a company now that, you know, invests in grocery stores and, you know, ATMs and just likes that whole like business as, know, so they want to target stations that are like in that market to them that that makes sense. So it's like aligning the parties where things make sense to each other or, you know, you have a, a uh CPO that's operating in a region and they just got a pipeline of sites in a new state. Yeah, maybe now's the opportunity to consider buying 10 sites or a corridor that's operational in that area. So then you just get economies to scale with kind of operations. So I think there's like a lot, it's a moving target too. And for bunch of, for some of those, I think even reasons that we were saying like where, like what's, no one has a crystal ball, right? Like, you know, what does the regulatory landscape look like in six months? What's the supply chain, you know, direction, you know, gonna look like there? You know, so these guys were left with very tough decisions where they need to like be cautious and even though there's you know, part of them's like man like we should just take this money and double down. So they need to be cautious too. going back to my initial point, like those the CPOs and their decisions to like proceed with a pipeline of projects or you know to take that money and like, you know risk growing. I think is kind of going to be, once we start seeing companies do that, more companies start to do that. I think things are going to start picking back up a little bit. also too, just for me, I love autonomous vehicles and some of these cool wireless charging, autonomous robotic charging systems out there. You know in the future like working with some cool battery cell companies and it's like man like you could get like You know a full charge in like 10 minutes like you know 500 miles like there goes range anxiety there goes a buying decision You know not to because you don't want to sit in a parking lot during your commute So then that that roadblock of a new adopter, you know, first time EV owners removed, you know prices start coming down, right? They're just more available chargers like All these things are kind of maturing together and you know with autonomous charging It's just gonna be like I feel like we're in like a weird place But things are gonna start opening up I get the sense, you know sometime, you know later this year and you know, then there's going to be everyone's going to start agreeing with those signals and then money's going to start coming back in and manufacturing is going to start ramping up more. So I think they all kind of feed into each other. And I'm very optimistic, you know, overall and yeah, we're in a tough spot right now, but you know, I'm happy to be in a position to try to help some of these companies out. That's good. Well, Raymond, it's been a great conversation. Appreciate all your insights. It's good to hear about the recruitment side of things. Good to hear about your &A firm. Continuing to follow what you're doing, both on LinkedIn and other social media channels that you're on. As we wrap up, what's next for you? What's next for EVR? What's next for your &A firm? What's next? Well, I'm happy that for now I'm just staying the course, right? It's been stressful too, right? A lot of our recruitment clients haven't been hiring as much. Some of the manufacturing supply chain consultant we were doing earlier this year is a little bit hard to predict because of those quick changes in tariffs. And I actually am really excited with the group of people that I'm working with. you know, over the last couple of months that have been seeing like value and strong interest in, you know, my proactive, you know, M &A origination strategies and we've yielded some, we've closed a couple of deals recently, which is really exciting. You'll probably see maybe perhaps some of them in the new cycles, but I'm just excited to stay the course. This is what I want to do. I want to, you know, get more involved in, you know, some of those decisions, you know, working with the top on buying and selling so yeah, I'm just staying the course man You know add me on on LinkedIn, you know last name McSpirit. There's not too many of us out there. So Raymond McSpirit I'm having fun with it man. You go on my LinkedIn I just did a I'm doing these cool like video posts where I'm doing the electric poet series and I made historical reference to the Vikings, you know representing chem power and you know the Portuguese Navy related to eye charging so having fun with it man like we're in such a fun exciting like cool space like you know let's let's have fun with it you know let's let's celebrate it you know we don't got to be all you know dry all the time but in you know when we need to get serious get serious so I know you're gonna be out Jason and at move America and you know you're gonna be joining in you know our happy hour out there so you know we'll probably Maybe even we use this this sound bite. We take a little clip of this to promote the happy hour. So Yeah, so on on the happy hour, I guess you could you could end it here Jason if you wanted to but You know, we're bringing out a lot of cool companies and clients that I do work with we got um a rooftop rented, you know, that overlooks the one of the sports stadiums there in Detroit and just bring a lot of these people together. I have personally invited some of the new private equity guys that I'm working with. I'm gonna show them the space. you know, we have 50 clients that, you know, exhibit. So it's gonna be a fun time and looking forward to seeing everyone out there. And Jason, man, this is an awesome thing that you're doing for the industry. And, you know, I'm excited to, you know, follow some of these other you know great interviewers that you know you're going to be hosting on your podcast here Matt. Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. That call out to that event, of course, is Move America taking place in Detroit, Michigan, month of September, September 22nd through the 25th, I believe. So be able to catch Raymond McSpirit there and what he'll be participating in the activities associated with that industry event. Raymond, thanks for being on field frequency with us. I know you'll probably be getting some outreach, whether from the &A side or... perhaps from the recruitment side, but thanks for sharing your knowledge. Thanks for sharing your time with us today. Yeah, and even if you just want to put time on our calendar, just talk about the market that I enjoy that too. Every night I make it a point to talk to a few people for 30 minutes. So I'm all in on this and thanks again, Jason. Appreciate it, Yeah, absolutely. To that end, Raymond, one more time for the audience. How do they connect with you? Yeah, so you could just check out and see what we're up to at evrecruitment.com. My LinkedIn has a pretty good overview of the different projects that we're working on. So Raymond McSpero on LinkedIn, easy to find. If you're in the space, we'll probably have 300 or so mutual connections. And just excited to connect with as many folks as possible. All right. Thank you, Raymond. Appreciate it. Thanks, Jason.