How Petroleum Retailers Evolve: Global Partner's Take on the Next Fueling Era

In this episode of Field Frequency, we sit down with James Cater, Senior Director of Sustainability at Global Partners, to explore what happens when petroleum retail meets electrification.

James shares his “molecules to electrons” origin story, from launching one of the largest EV make-ready programs in the country at Eversource Energy to helping Global thoughtfully integrate EV charging into its retail footprint.

This conversation dives into the operational, financial, and cultural realities of bringing EV charging to traditional fueling locations. From dwell time economics to demand charges, from brand control to customer loyalty, James explains why EV infrastructure is not a threat to fuel retail, but an evolution of it.

The takeaway? The future forecourt is not about choosing gasoline or electrons. It is about designing an experience that makes customers want to stay.

Show Notes

• Guest Overview
  • Conversation with James Cater, Senior Director of Sustainability at Global Partners
  • Focus on petroleum retail and EV charging convergence
• From Utility to Retail
  • Background at Eversource launching major EV make-ready programs
  • Transition to building EV charging strategy within fuel retail
• Who Global Partners Is
  • Integrated midstream/downstream fuel company
  • Retail brands include Alltown Fresh and Honey Farms
• EVs as Evolution, Not Competition
  • Charging positioned as another fuel type
  • Selective, strategic deployment rather than “chargers everywhere”
• Customer Experience & Dwell Time
  • EV drivers stay longer, increasing in-store conversion
  • Premium retail offerings align with EV demographics
  • Safety, lighting, and amenities are critical
• Ownership vs. Hosting Chargers
  • Leasing to CPOs as an entry strategy
  • Shift toward owning chargers to control brand and operation
• Economics & Incentives
  • Utilization drives long-term value
    NEVI, state, and utility incentives help de-risk projects
  • Demand charges are a major profitability factor
• Scaling & Site Strategy
  • Larger port counts and faster charging becoming standard
  • New-to-industry builds offer cost and infrastructure advantages
• Industry Sentiment
  • Many retailers remain cautious
  • Innovation depends on leadership willing to look ahead

Transcript

0:00

On today's episode of Field Frequency, I'm joined by James Kader, Senior Director of Sustainability, Strategy and Innovation for Global Partners. Global Partners has been around the US fuel supply chain for a long time. They operate 54 fuel terminals and are running a growing network of modern convenience store brands, including Alltown, Alltown Fresh and Honey Farms. In this episode, we get into how a fourth generation oil and gas company is redefining the forecourt by putting in EV chargers, which fit into their long-term strategy and Why even owning the customer experience from molecules to electrons is a real competitive edge. This is an exciting conversation that I've been wanting to have with a petroleum retailer for a long time as we talk about fueling the future. Tune in today. Welcome to another episode of Field Frequency. Today I'm joined by James Kader, Senior Director of Sustainability with Global Partners. James, thanks for coming on today. Hey, good to be here. Thank you for the invite, Yeah, I think it's going to be a fascinating conversation. I have wanted to talk to a petroleum retailer for some time now. And obviously the intersection of EV charging and petroleum retail is a special place in my heart because I entered the EV space within downstream oil and gas, literally at the retail level. it's a near and dear topic. to my heart. So I really appreciate you sharing time with us today, James, and thank you for coming on the show. Before we get going here into our conversation, I'd like to just hear your background. Give us James' story. Tell us about what led up to today and how you ended up at Global and what your role is and what kind of preceded that role. Yeah, it's interesting. We have a nascent podcast on our side and we like to ask our guests, it's molecules and electrons, but we like to ask our guests what's their origin story. So mine is before coming to Global Partners, I was was ensconced. with an electric utility. EverSource Energy up here in New England for approximately a decade. And I had a couple big, I sort of taken in two pieces, right? There are two big pieces of employment there. One was being ensconced literally in City Hall in Boston and helping the energy. uh... open space cabinet think about the car that is a shin's strategy energy efficiency strategy that uh... utility was sort of administering it's not a working closely with the city to to to remove some of programs for it and think about how we engage with commercial customers residential customs after that we had the pleasure of executing on the largest electric vehicle make ready program Now some of the, some of your audience members might be familiar with sort of utility programs out there in the field that sort of enable EV infrastructure. We had the largest one at the time. So this was in 2018 outside of California. And so being able to receive that, get it launched, get it off, off and running was a heck of an experience. And I, I ran that program with a great team on our side for four years. you and then wanting to be on the other side of the equation so not just handing money out for the purpose of building e-vee charging making a business out of uh... that investment uh... that incentive and that operation uh... so have been at global now nearly four years uh... doing a lot of that and and sort of sort of the place between an intersection of sustainability and innovation squarely that EV infrastructure for petroleum downstream prize and retailers that's in that space. So I have been doing that since. And it's been exciting. It's been great. It's been a very fulfilling sort of experience and we've learned a lot. and we continue to sort of move things forward. Thank you for that overview. For those that may not be... may not be familiar with Global, if you could kind of speak to where Global sits in terms of midstream, downstream, retail level, and then also maybe some brands that you are operating in. So that way, for the audience to round out kind of who Global Partners is, large company, but tell us where you sit in the value chain of petroleum, and then also what the branding of the stores is. Yeah, so not a household name, right? We're sort of a nondescriptive name, but we are significant players in the midstream and downstream space of oil and gas. And so let me start at the top. We take everything after the refined product, okay? So, and then we store it at one of 54 uh fuel terminals that are You and into Florida, into the Florida Straits, and then across into Texas, we've got more than a handful of terminals there. So sort of really Eastern seaboard, Texas. And then we've got a couple in the Dakotas and then one out there in Klatsky, Oregon. So that compromises 54 fuel termins. We push our product through those terminals from everything from bunk and residual up through jet fuel and everything in between through to 1700 retail locations that we either own, operate, lease or have supply agreements with. Half of those 1700 is in the own operate lease. And then half of those are our own retail brands. I knew I mentioned the retail brands we sort of Had a constellation of retail brands that we're currently sort of consolidating into a couple of really really strong and differentiated brands under the flags of all-town all-town all-town fresh as well as our honey farms offering that really offer an elevated a convenient store experience paired with a fueling experience. So we're really excited about both of those brands. ah And they're really following the same footprint that our sort of terminal locations are very much right now focused in the Northeast with the smattering in the mid in the mid Atlantic. And we have a JV with Exxon in surrounding the Houston area. So we're really excited about what's to come. for our retail footprint, but really very much integrated from the refined product all the way down through the pump. And we have hundreds of commercial customers that we supply in that same sort of geographic footprint. Well, I appreciate you sharing that overview because for those listening, not everyone understands the path from. from refinery to the fuel that's in the tanks that people drive and they don't understand that process and then how it lands in the market and then the branding of fuels and then all of that. so, 50 plus terminals that's across the US, that's pretty impressive. So just long way of saying that you guys are supplying a lot of fuel and a lot of services to a lot of people. And it's not just at the consumer level to your point about the fleets. You're also a fueling destination for fleet operators and what that could look like in a commercial industrial context. So anyways, I appreciate that overview. Like I say, I've been excited to talk to a fueling retailer because when I entered this space, it was 2016, 2017, and I was working in oil and gas far downstream at the infrastructure level. So we were the ones deploying fueling, putting the tanks in the ground, putting the fuel pumps on the islands. running the pipe, know, doing everything except the building and the canopies, but you know, getting the fueling, commercial fueling rather, well, commercial and industrial fueling, really, you know, petroleum dispensing, petroleum retailing at the C store level, the convenience store level. so kind of being a part of that construction value chain is what we were doing. so, you know, few years, you know, it's been almost nine years. And then looking into that space, there was clearly an opportunity from a fueling standpoint outside of petroleum products outside of diesel and gasoline, but electrons. And so you're an example of a forward thinking petroleum retailer. And I know you're more than just a retailer, but I just to kind of frame it up, but you're an example of a petroleum retailer that, that fought outside of the box and didn't look at EV infrastructure, EVs as competing technology, but just an iteration of technology, another type of vehicle with its own type of fuel source. so I'm really excited to talk to you today. So, you know, looking at what I would call a new fueling experience, fueling with petroleum products versus EV charging, what is your take on petroleum retailers as far as the adapting from the traditional gas station experience to accommodate the very different expectations and process for EV drivers when they're refueling, i.e. when they're charging? What has that experience been looking will look like for you personally as you've been at front of all this. Yeah, it's actually been very educational, but also sort of exciting in just seeing how people, providers are in different spaces, different places depending on their comfort level. And you can sort of see how, so it reflects their culture. as companies. And I have had the benefit of working at Global and sort of seeing that progression, that evolution from thinking about, you know, how we sort of see the EV infrastructure space knitting into our business. I don't think we ever, to be honest, I don't think we ever saw it as a sort of it's sort of an aggressive competition thing. It's either this or this. But I think being, and part of it is because we dwell in more progressive environments here in the Northeast, in New England, we're sort of ahead of the National Adoption Government EVs, seeing that as a potential opportunity rather than a detriment for us to continue to sort of really cater to the customer that we see on our highways and byways. I will say that when we started, we started specifically in a space around renting or leasing locations and parking spaces to potential charge point operators. You know, all of those companies that still exist today, who are interested in locating sites, uh, putting in chargers and we would collect a uh rental for that. I think that's a great step for a lot of, patrol and retailers sort of trying to think about how they might enter into the space. Cause especially if you've got quite a few sites, right? You can always take a look and say, okay, this site's doing this. and maybe I'm renting here or I want to see how that goes. It's a great first step. think from our perspective, we were really trying to control and cater to the customer. So in that sense, from when the customer pulls onto our site to when they leave the site, we want to be able to wrap that customer in our experience. And that lends itself to more... us owning and operating the charging station experience. In addition, we think we have some real winners on the retail side. And so to the extent we can connect that EV driver with a loyalty experience, with convenient store experience that is complimentary, so much the better. And you know when you can knit one to the other into the next into the next I Think I think long term You really have something And it's not just transactional. It's not just I'm gonna pull up to the space I'm gonna get my get my electrons and go it is I'm pulling up to the space because it's better than the other spaces and it caters to what I'm trying to do I'm trying to do for my next 25 30 minutes you a better experience. Well, and to your point of the loyalty and the integration, that is duplicating the experience that the EV driver that was before they were an EV driver, they were traditional fuel driver. They had that experience with their gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. Obviously it should translate over to their EV charging experience. so thinking about what I've heard you say is you've thought about the customer holistically and the experience that maybe they have migrated from traditional power. fueled vehicles to EV. And so uh I think thinking about that customer experience, because, you know, one of the, one of the pushbacks on, fueling, you know, traditional fueling sites having chargers is the time on site is so much different for the EV driver versus the petroleum fuel driver. so, you know, those gas pumps, they dispense, you know, gasoline or diesel products route 22, 22 gallons or so per minute. And so that's a you know, three to five minute transaction at the gas pump versus charging, is different experience. And so how, as a, as a retailer, did you, did you think about the design of the dwell time that extended dwell time for the EV driver at your site? Yeah. So what we're really, what we're trying to do and I think, retailers are, are completely on the continuum from, from terrible to really good, making that EV driver not feel like a second class citizen or third class citizen when they're on your site. Right. because ultimately if I think, if I think about that EV customer being, uh, being on my self 25, 30, Okay. because they're there because they you have a kept customer that if you have the right location that probably not leaving your site And they're gonna want to be able to you know walk around a little bit where are the opportunities in that sort of retail experience to give the pushes and nudges that allow that customer to really have a premium experience, a great experience at your site and be able to fuel up and get on their way sort of seamlessly. you know, the point is well taken. That customer is going to be there four to five to six times as long as your gas customer. you would want to make sure that you are offering you know you're putting forth offer offerings that sort of lend themselves to those longer dwell times make the customer feel comfortable in that longer dwell time and it's not just about the experience it's also about things like safety right so if somebody pulls up if it's if it's somebody with a family who has to charge it 11 o'clock at night where do you want them sitting in the car in a dimly lit uh... back of a parking lot or would you rather or would they rather have experience when they know it's well lit they know there's a place to go inside go to the bathroom get some snacks you know get a sandwich get a salad and be much feel much safer while their car charges i mean i think from our perspective it's very much the second that we're trying to evoke Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think creating that similar experience because, you know, when you look at the conversion rates from someone pulling up to a gas pump and they're fueling three to five minutes at the pump at the most, there is not a guaranteed conversion. I E they park their car and go inside the store and You know, they're, part of the retail experience. They may or they may not. And I've heard differing percentages around what conversion looks like at the fuel pump to retail experience inside the store. But when you look at EV charging, you're exponentially higher at conversion because they've got that extended dwell time to your point. And then you've, you've intentionally thought about their experience, their 12 dwell time. So you are looking to curate something that appeals to them because they could potentially go inside the store. twice, not just once, but twice. And so there's probably data, I don't know if you've got that off the top of your head, but you would know what that conversion looks like from the fuel pump to the store versus the charging to the store. Yeah, we've done we've done we've kind of a couple that data a couple ways and we've seen significantly more conversion for EV drivers than we have for traditional sort of vehicle customers. And that I think it is attributed to, I mean, we can't be sure to the longer sort of dwell time. And it what it also is, is our retail offering. both the Alltown Fresh and, and so this is the key point, right? The Alltown Fresh offering, the Honey Farms offering are not your mom and pop's convenience store. They're not just the smokes and the cokes. They lend itself to sort of this, this neighborhood market and lend itself to Discovery. So there are many brands in those stores that you won't find in your traditional C store. So that's this exploration and discovery. ah at these sites that lend themselves to sort of the browsing feature, the longer dwell time. let me see that cheesy popcorn. I've never seen that brand before. Maybe I should try it. Or let me see that organic beef jerky that I've never seen before. Those things lend themselves well to the dwell time that we're trying to, or the EV drivers experience. The second thing I'll offer. is and this will sort of moderate over time, but today, the EV driver uh has sort of a higher income, right? More disposable income and they sort of have a different sort of thinking about what it is they're trying to get at a store. So lending itself to more premium products. maybe a similar size of number of goods they buy, but at a higher margin. And so, again, our C-store offerings that were pushing forward lend themselves more to sort of that premium space. And people can sort of say, okay, maybe I don't want the base popcorn. May I want the premium popcorn? I have an extra couple of dollars in my pocket. I'm gonna go for that. And that... That makes a difference for our guests and for how we see those returns bearing out long term. I'm sorry, we're being selective. It's not just everywhere that we're putting our EV charging. We're being selective about where we're putting them and complementing them with some of these premium uh convenience experiences. Yeah, exactly, that was the messaging that I was trying to carry forward in 2017, 2018, 2019 when I'm trying to call on retailers to think about deploying chargers. And the message wasn't, oh, you got to have chargers at every one of your locations. The message is where are your EV drivers? The data is out there. Where are your amenities and your sites aligned with what complements that extended dwell time and appeals to that demographic? And deploy there. Don't go put chargers everywhere. Put them thoughtfully and meaningfully and kind of to double click on your comments about the margins, you know, as it related to inside the store, but maybe taking a step back and looking at margins as it relates to infrastructure and the deployment. So the petroleum fueling has a long history and proven business models in fuel volumes and the margins attached to that, as well as the margins attached to the store. EV charging obviously has a longer payback window because of, there's so many things that drive that, the utilization, the deployment, capital costs, the utility upgrades and infrastructure that's needed to support the chargers. so as a retailer, how did Global look at building that business model around EV chargers? Cause they have the proven model on the other infrastructure, but what about the... evaluating the business model around deploying chargers and to justify that investment. What, what, what did that look like? Well, I think it was a, you know, as I mentioned, we started with sort of leasing space. um I think for us, it really was trying to see and notice them and our lease locations where we're leasing or charging. There were a lot of customers. that were that were driving up, fueling up and getting on their way. And so I think there was a realization as utilization ticked up that, Hey, we might be leaving something on the table. Um, as utilization at the site crosses five, six, 8%, 10 % because we were able to get that data, um, that in the future, these things are going to be really accretive to our to our site revenue and profit. And so there's nothing like seeing it real time, this thing going, this trend line on utilization going up. And then saying that, well, if we were to do this again, would we want to wrap up these parking spaces in a 10 year, 15 year agreement with a third party operator? Right? Because these are not like three or five year programs. that an operator is going want 10, 15 years from you to lock up your parking spaces. While looking at the trends, now EV adoption trends are sort of moderated somewhat, but we don't expect them long-term, we expect them long-term to get back on track, maybe not this year or next year, but sort of in the near future. Looking at those two things, utilization going up over time and adoption eventually sort of ticking up over time, do you want your next and next and next site to be locked down by somebody else who's making volume and money off of that trend line? And so I think paybacks can be difficult in some space and some places are not, to be honest. but, but I think as you're sort of being selective about your approach, you want to be able to visualize that, that payback over time. Now, I will also say, candidly, that another way to mitigate this, sort of the full payment, full capital spend. Cause yeah, these are not, these are not, um, cheap, deployments. No, no. all. Uh, but there's still our federal, uh, estate and utility programs that exist at least where we are that can support those deployments. Um, uh, we, um, have been, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, fortunate enough to receive a few awards from the national electric vehicle infrastructure program, um, that has helped us in our, uh, consortium risk some of these sites. that we're either building or going to build. We have also been very active in state and utility programs that offer similar incentives. So I would suggest to your listeners and those people interested in this sort of space to make sure that you're taking advantage of all of the dollars available because in some spaces, It's significant. there's sort of de-risk that first, second, that thirtieth project. Yeah, yeah, certainly a good call out because that funding is available and it's been helping move the industry forward as it is because of the funding that was available through Volkswagen settlement money that rolled out early, know, a few years before even Nevi did. you know, Kind of going back to that comment that you made about operators and even kind of your initial approach to market was the, you know, the, partnering with existing CPOs. I know Tesla was kind of the first network to take charging into the petroleum space. And I want to say it was like brands like either Sheets or Walla that had deployed chargers as early as like 2014 or something like that. And of course it was, it's more aligned with that model that you spoke to where you're, you're, you're, you're offering up space, your car, now it's a real estate, they're owning, they're operating. they're controlling that experience. But one of the things that I was trying to talk about in 2017, 2018 with the retailers was thinking about the control of that infrastructure as far as operationally. And so, you know, with your fuel pumps, with your fuel site, whether there's an issue inside the store at the point of sale or an issue at the fuel pump on the island, there are service level agreements attached to those deployments that support that. And so if something goes down, you've got something in place to address it. When you uh as a retailer have opened up your space to a CPO, then you're competing with their operational response, you know, priorities and their, maintenance priorities. so when a charger goes down, it's like when a fuel pump goes down, they look at the store. It's the stores fault. It's not the manufacturer. It's not your barco. It's not Wayne. It's not their fault. It's the stores fault. And so same thing when the charger goes down, the charger, the excuse me, the EV driver is looking at the store. And so if you are a guest, at a site where there's a CPO that has an agreement with that retailer and they've chosen to let that maintenance issue carry on, then that's impacting your brand. So I'm gonna imagine that was a part of your evaluation on owning versus hosting. Yeah, no, I... Certainly, certainly. And it really is... As much as you can... As much as people think about, you know, branding somebody else's charger and putting, you know, names all over it, no, this is not... Please call a toll-free number if you have any issues. People come into the store to say, the charger over there is out and... And it's not a great experience if you're an e-vee driver, you walk into the store and you say that and... The store manager says, you're going to have to, you know, talk on the phone to this person because we have nothing to do with it. It, again, it goes back to being that second class citizen. the, what we're trying to do here is make sure that that experience of an EV driver ultimately has on our site is the same or similar, in terms of, in terms of customer service, in terms of access to amenities. in terms of safety as a gas vehicle driver on that site. And you know, this is not, you know, I expect that it'd be all sorts of, a little bit of, you know, finding our way, but just because there's a different thing we're all learning here. But I think we're seeing sort of the early pieces of success. in that because we are really sort of jumping out a little bit on this, we get to see the returns a little bit earlier and can pivot and do something new and different and sort of innovative with our customers as we continue to sort of deploy those sites. Yeah, in the, in the vein of innovation, when, when you start to look, you know, I'd like to kind of double click on the, technology that you guys have deployed. so I guess I got a two part question. One first part is, is how many sites do you have with EV charging and, kind of what is that port count or parking space kind of average quantity look like? Yeah, so it's actually been a that's been an interesting journey journey. So we've got Six sites six or I think it's six sites. so again, we've been working at this for a couple of years We're still small. We're being very selective and deliberate And Should I want to say 20 ports 20 ports So again again Being sort of very very and that's that's gone on the past 20 years. I've gone from sort of a a two port spec to a four port spec and now to a six port spec in the matter of two and a half years. So you see some of the progress on port size as well as speed. You've gone from 62 and a half to 160s and we're probably gonna be up over 200 KW at our next site that's coming online per port. because the market is is is sort of is what we need in that direction of all of its warrants the national electric vehicle infrastructure program did do one thing that was really interesting one of the outcomes were setting us back that said okay four by one fifty years sort of our baseline and i think that's been really helpful to a lot of people in the industry to say well okay Now we've got sort of a level by which we sort of measure ourselves, a base level four by 150. And then people are going up from there. And you, I don't think you will see, or at least they won't be very successful, anymore like two porters. That's not a, I don't know if that's a thing anymore for gas stations. So it really is sort of that base, maybe baseline and up that we are interested in doing. you know, so much that we have, space to do it, we're going to do the bigger 812. We do have to be cognizant that we live in a region that is more dense um and land comes at a premium. So we have to sort of take that into consideration, but certainly we would rather be larger in our deployments than smaller from here on out. Yeah, when you're evaluating sites, both at the technology, there's another two-part question. um When you're looking at your deployments, when you're looking at where the right place is to deploy the chargers, is that a factor of existing sites or is it also your... or do you all look at NTIs or new to industry locations? Do you look at... When you go into a new industry location, you're building a site, are you factoring EV into that equation or is it really kind of, if it makes sense from a market standpoint, but then what about the technology? So I guess the question is, how are you choosing where to go? And then from the technology, obviously, is a constant moving part of this industry is the change in technology, both from an output, but also from... viability with your partners. Is there some standardization around the hardware that's going out? Yeah, so we have, so let me tell you that's the second one first. We have a couple of vendors that we're working with in terms of hardware providers, EVSC hardware providers that we're comfortable with and have been with us for a couple of years now. So that's pretty secure. will say that as we advance, think being selective about what who you have for both your EVSE and for your gear providers. That's really important, especially around speed to delivery to site. To the extent that your contractors are comfortable with that technology and have worked with that technology in the past, that's really important. I can't understate that enough. Some of these new EVSE vendors don't have contractors that have seen this in the field or have worked with this product, which can lead to... difficulties. And so we are very comfortable with the couple of hardware providers that we've got and have vendors that have had that experience or contracts that have had that experience as well. In terms of where and how we select our sites, it is both. It's both a retrofit operation where there might be opportunities to make use of existing sites that have significant parking and putting that spec into our new to industry sites, whether they be honey farm sites or all-town fresh sites. And then making the case in terms of building out parking that, you know, includes those charging stations stalls. One interesting thing that we found, at least in some of our new builds, you know, you have to go through all the permitting and go in front of town committees and present and say, hey, we're putting a gas station here with a convenience store and EVs. We've seen a lot of our town planners sort of drill in on the EV and say, that's great that you're doing that. Um, and it doesn't, and it does not, it's no longer a gas station that they're looking at. They're looking at sort of an opportunity to be sustainable, sustainable in the town. So it gives it a bit of a different, look for folks you're trying to get permitting from. and it's been sort of, a sort of additional positive piece. new sites tend to cost less. So in terms of, not just, but the EV portion, right? Because you're already digging up the ground. can put in all of your underground stuff while you're paving or before you're paving. You can put in your switch gear. You know you've got your first transformer being delivered from the utility for the site. So you say, hey, can we upsize this transformer? Yeah. Well, I... to sort of put a cherry on it, we are, I would say that we've probably got half a dozen sites that are in planning, are sort of NTIs that on day one have sort of the, the, the Nevi spec at least. So we're really excited about having that conversation and that, that planning function and being able to deploy when the doors open on those new sites. Yeah. Well, that's, that's good. I, I respect that forward planning and kind of, you know, out of the box thinking as well. That's, that's really cool. Well, this has been a really good conversation, James. I've enjoyed this. got a couple of more questions and then we'll round this out. One, I guess one is in the vein of scalability. Would you say, and this is more outside of maybe your observation of maybe your competitors or those that haven't even really eaten. got involved in EV as a petroleum retailer. Are retailers, again, this is kind of just industry, 30,000 foot view, are retailers still, are they pro EV, are they against EV, or is the jury still out? We don't know. We don't know what we don't know. What's that look like? a good question. If I were to take a look at sort of the waterfront of petroleum retailers, I still think that's a negative bias, to be honest, about EVs. look, a lot of petroleum retailers have been in business for decades. Generations. um Especially so for example for global global is a fourth generation Oil and gas and and fuel business. Okay, so so so started at the and in 1920s You know in Boston and so, you know Because of that generational thing there's a lot of embedded knowledge about how to do petroleum and and how the company feels about petroleum products and services. I have been fortunate enough to have leadership at Global who says, hey, maybe there's some other opportunities out there we can grab. But I don't know if everybody's thinking in that vein, to be honest, because People are sort of inertia is inertia, right? We've been doing this for a long time. We're going to keep doing this because it has benefited us in the past. So we'll just keep, we'll just keep doing that. Global has been innovative in the way that, and not just in sort of the EV space, but in other, other places where we are thinking about our business as well to say, what's next? And is there an opportunity for us to take advantage of it? are there customers who are interested in these different products that we might be selling? And I think it's to our advantage. Well, that's good. That's a good overview and I appreciate that. I guess as we're getting ready to close out here, maybe share for the audience, what's some of the biggest barriers that retailers face that people don't realize that it's taking? mean, everybody thinks, oh, it's a gas station, put chargers in too. It's not that simple. So maybe as we get ready to close out, what would surprise most people that don't know what is involved? so you have to be really good at understanding the utility that you're working with because I think from a fuel retail's perspective, you very much know there's a very competitive industry. You're trying to get fuel at the lowest price to get to your store so you can sell it and make a little bit of margin off of it. from a you can and you can shop around right you can find your your your your wholesale provider in the case of EVs you've got one provider it is the utility and they set the price they set the tariffs and they set the service so you are having to deal with them a lot and so it's good to make friends early It's good to understand the rates and tariffs on which your EV will be set and being able to develop your financial and pro forma calculations off of that. Because, and a lot of people don't understand things like demand charges very well, and it's sort of an arcane sort of thing, but it's incredibly important. especially for high powered sites that are about 750 kilowatts in total, a thousand kilowatts in total, because that can be the thing that sinks your profits. It's not calculating that in. In many sites that's 40, 50, 60 % of the cost of your charging on a monthly basis. And so not accounting for it, not understanding it very well. It is is a big risk. So make sure that you understand your utility Make sure you understand the tariffs. Make sure you understand who you're working with On the utility side because that is going to eliminate a lot of roadblocks a lot of headaches as you Put in your first your fifth your hundredth EV site Yeah. James, it's been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Thank you for sharing your experience. You mentioned uh hosting a podcast. for those listening that wanna connect with you directly, share how they can do that and also plug your podcast as well, please. Yeah, sure. So, you know, I continue to try to evangelize EVs, I consider as part of my work. So, you know, James Kata, Senior Director and Innovation Sustainability Strategy here at Global, dropped me a line. Me and my counterpart who does, so I do sort of electrons, he does molecules at Global. We have a cloudcast called Molecules and Electrons. that we try to think about the low carbon future and we bring in various guests to talk about things. And Jason, I highly appreciate your invitation to me. It's great when we get a chance to chat and have these kinds of discussions, because really, a lot of people are hungry to understand what some of these interesting and growing spaces might look like. So thank you for the invite. I appreciate it. Yeah, well thank you for coming on and appreciate everyone listening. This is Field Frequency.