Some EV Chargers Work, Others Kill Trust: Carter Li on EV Charging Maturity

In this episode of Field Frequency, Carter Li, CEO of SWITCH, shares his journey into the EV industry and dives into the challenges and evolution of EV charging infrastructure. From reliability and uptime to industry accountability and future growth, this conversation explores what it will take to mature the EV charging experience and build driver trust.

Show Notes:

• Carter Li’s origin story and the founding of SWITCH
• The challenge of EV charging in multifamily housing
• Growth of Switch to 20,000+ charging ports across North America
• Different EV charging business models (CPO, software, ownership structures)
• Customer experience gaps between EV charging and traditional fueling
• The role of real-time data tools like PlugShare and Google Maps
• Why uptime metrics can be misleading and how to define true reliability
• Accountability in the EV ecosystem: CPOs, OEMs, and service providers
• Operational challenges and the importance of maintenance (O&M)
• Hardware evolution and the importance of iteration in charger design
• Industry growing pains and the shift toward maturity
• The need for collaboration, transparency, and shared data
• Market outlook: consolidation, scalability, and sustainable business models
• Why the next wave of EV adoption depends on better first impressions

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The EV charging industry is no longer young, but in a lot of ways still acts like it. There are uptime claims that don't always reflect reality, and the patience of some early adopters has run out. Today's conversation is about that gap. The gap between scale and reliability, between reported performance and lived experience. My guest is Carter Lee, CEO of Switch, a company operating over 20,000 charging ports across North America. Carter didn't enter this space through theory or capital. He entered it as an EV driver who couldn't charge at home. So we talked candidly about uptime that actually means something, where accountability really sits, why consolidation may be healthy, and why the industry has a rare opportunity to get its second first impression. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Hey Jason, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Good. Thank you for being on Field Frequency and sharing some time with us today. Would like to kick off the conversation with uh, you know, your origin story. If you could just walk us through your path into the EV industry and then share with us kind of the founding logic and you know what what goes into Switch and what Switch does in the EV space.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

For sure, for sure. It's a it's a fairly simple story. Uh, but um really at the time it was 2016, 2015, and I was looking to get an electric vehicle, so relatively early adopter at that point. I think there was only the Nissan Leaf and the Model 3 was going to come out in a year or two. So I was looking to get an EV, but I was living in a downtown apartment. So um, you know, didn't think too much of it at the time, thought maybe it could be interesting. So uh, you know, I had an interesting conversations with HOA, the condo board, as et cetera, et cetera, and realized just how monumental of a task that was going to be. Uh, you know, I think I worked on it for about nine to twelve months with the with the condo board and realized that it wasn't gonna happen. That really was the motivation for starting Switch. Um, you know, realizing that for most folks in the world, which is two out of three people live in multifamily apartments, condominiums, they don't have access to convenient charging. Um, so the focus of our business initially was really trying to make it easier for real estate developers and property management companies to provide that to uh the residents and tenants. So, fast forward 10 years, we're over 20,000 ports at this point across North America. We have a team of about 100 people and yeah, have really broadened our scope at this point. You're doing a lot of public charging at this point as well with the CFCs, et cetera. But really the core focus and the technology has always been at the at the multi-tenant, multi-family level.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

So twenty twenty thousand ports across the switch portfolio. Uh, as far as a business model goes, are you the the operator, the CPO, or do you also sell that solution to these multifamily communities, or what's that look like?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, so we we play in a different in various degrees in different contexts. So, you know, we sometimes are purely software that we why label for utilities on their networks. Sometimes we are the CPOs ourselves. We own and operate a network as well. And sometimes, you know, we just um, you know, we we operate, but we don't own the assets. So it's a spectrum of different business ownerships depending on the context of the situation.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Well, tw 20,000 ports across uh North America is no joke, though. That's um that's a that's a lot, that's a healthy port count. And uh I think that's cool that um you're focusing on that vertical. I have a similar story as as my first EV that I owned. I was living in a multifamily as well community as well and didn't have access to to charging on site. And like you said, uh when they realized all the complexities of getting a charger in, which I was trying to guide them through, they're like, yeah, we're not gonna do that. Anyways, it's a real, real legitimate need. And I've seen I've seen the multifamily community as as one of the verticals that has the most logical ROI when it comes to deploying chargers in the community. Yeah, that's um good background. So uh wanted to talk about customer experience with you. We see what it's like with public charging as a general rule. And we know that you know there's a hundred years of public retail fueling in the petroleum side of things behind us. At a gas station, you pull up, a bag is over the nozzle. That's a very quick signal. Don't bother using this pump, move to the next one. In EV charging, there's no equivalent to that. It doesn't work that way. You drivers pull up, you tap, you connect, you wait, there's a failure, and then you're kind of guessing what's next. And so, you know, as as someone that's been in the space, as someone that's leading a company with a very healthy port count. I'd like to hear your thoughts on where trust has been burned by this industry and the drivers because of that unclear signals like what we see in petroleum fueling.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

For sure, for sure. I mean, I think we have to think about the context, and sometimes it's hard, right? I mean, in a gas uh station, usually you have a an attendant at least, like a real person, like that's there 24-7, right? In front of the cashier, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas the majority of I think public charging, it's changing now, are unattended. Um, you know, so we're dealing with attended versus unattended assets. So there's going to be certain challenges for unattended assets, right? Like, no, there's not this person who can be like, oh, it doesn't work. Let's just put a bag over it. I'm sure if we could, reasonably, you know, most of us would do that for our for charging. But the reality is, like, some of these chargers are in very remote places. It takes two, three hours to get to that place. And to be able to do that in real time is challenging. But that's no excuse, I think. So, what can we do? So I'm sure you're seeing more and more of it now, especially as an easy driver, when you're using Google Maps now. There's, you know, there's plenty of chargers that show up on Google Maps. And a lot of these chargers are showing real-time availability. I mean, for the earlier adopter folks, I'm sure everybody is aware of these platforms called Plug Share or Charge Hub that is like a like a I guess a peer-to-peer kind of reporting platform that let people know if chargers are having issues or not, et cetera, et cetera. But even then, they have real-time feeds up between many different networks of whether they're in use, they're in service, they're in maintenance, et cetera, et cetera. So I'd like to think that as the reporting of these chargers become more prevalent in Google Maps and Apple Maps and Plugshare in charge of, that we'll be able to get more visibility of the status of these chargers without having to drive you know 50, 100 miles to get there and realize that they've been out of service for the last month or two. Um, so I I think within those proper tools, and if we use them effectively as an industry, we'll we'll get to that point. And and as the uh like the end users, the drivers get more used to, you know, relying on Google Maps or Plug Share or something like that to get that information.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Right. That's you know, there's there's no diluting the value of these crowdsourced resources like Plug Share and of course Google. There is an onus on the operators to make sure they're they're keeping up with the comments and the activities that are happening in Plug Share. I know if I ever have a, you know, I'm I'm a little bit more patient since I'm in this space. I'm not going to just blow someone up on Plug Share if it's if it's something that I understand from a technical or an industry standpoint. But at the same time, if someone has reported a failure and that site has resolved that failure, and the last comment is that failure, you're sending wrong signals. And so it's it's really important. You know, early adopters, they we all tolerated the friction because we believed in the technology, we believed in the bigger purpose, we believed that it was going somewhere, and it is going somewhere. But today's newer driver, those that are on the outside looking in, they just want the chargers to work. And so that patience is kind of worth in in some cases, even with industry vets, you know, it's kind of like, man, just let the chargers work. But I don't know if the industry is fully internalized, that patience is no longer um is as it may be as deep as it was. I don't know. What's your thoughts on the phone?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, you know, the patience is it's like it's just different now, right? If we want us to be a mature industry, we have to act more maturely as an industry. So the the the tolerance, the the amount of errors that we see all need to be closer, if not the same, as what the experience is for people using a gas pump, you know. And I think we're gonna get there, but like we do have to keep at it and work on it on multiple fronts, from the actual installation, doing the proper installations, doing the proper configurations, doing the proper assessments around network connectivity and cellular strength, all those things will come into play as we become more mature as an industry.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah. Um, you know, when it comes to uptime, that is not something that every organization has probably managed honestly, I guess you could say. A lot of operators are claiming a higher uptime, but not everyone kind of defines uptime honestly. I had a recent conversation, interviewed Florent with Perrin, and and we were talking about kind of the um the false signals in uptime that wasn't valid. And so as an operator of so many ports, what does legitimate uptime mean to you and and what are the metrics that the industry kind of needs to h stop hiding behind that are not really valid when it comes to uptime?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, I think you know, nail on the head for sure. It's like for us, you know, and we when we say this, we have 97.8%, no exceptions, uptime. It's really that. It's like you show up a hundred times, you know, to this specific spot and it should work 97.8% of the time or above. So, you know, when I've seen other groups, other CPOs, I've uh, you know, there's been known facts that when they define uptime, they define it at a site level. So let's say like you have 10 ports. And if like one of the 10 ports works at that site, that's 100% uptime. Now, you know, they don't take into the fact that maybe, you know, you have to try out nine other ports to get to that one port to be able to finally get a a charge going. Um but I mean that's how these numbers get inflated. And then we all kind of look bad when we say in like 97.8. It's like, well, how the person's like 99.9. I mean, I think if you look at these aggregating platforms like Plexhare or Charge Hub or things like that, it's actually shown that the real industry standard is like 90% uptime, meaning like I think 10% of transactions fail. You know? So I think that's like really the the industry benchmark that we have to compare us ourselves to. And, you know, of course, we want to get to 99%, all of us uh do, but when we're completely different definitions of what uptime is, it it becomes an apples to oranges comparison. And then, you know, it skews the expectations of the drivers and as well as the industry itself. I mean, I I I think we'll we'll get there. And then ultimately, even if you, you know, claim 99.9% uptime, eventually, you know, your flexhare scores and your reputation is going to experience what it reality is. So uh, you know, you can inflate it all you want, but I I do believe that people get a ri true sense of what really reliability is after using it time and time again.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, that that's a a very honest and and very clear, you know, kind of statement to that. I I appreciate that candor and agree with what you've said. That's um, you know, just really speaking to what's going on and what's not going on, the the false signals, the uptime, like you said, the example of and even then, you know, maybe it does show online on the back end, but then when a driver is actually trying to use the charger, it's not working because there's some kind of point in the friction that's off credit card reader or something like that, that maybe the operator themselves shows that the charger is is you know, sent back a healthy heartbeat. It's operational, but it's not. And just accepting that honestly and addressing it up front and responding to it, you know, that's uh that's the right path. And I like the way you you laid that out. It's you know, here we are, it's we're several years in into this, uh into our growth, and and drivers are still still faced with chargers not working. And so I I'd like to hear your comments as as to kind of where you see responsibility actually sit sitting. Is it on the technology side? Is it operation side? Is it the manufacturers? Is it site hosts? What what's where's the disconnect and and kind of who I know not one person is to blame or not one aspect of the value chain is to blame, but where do you see the disconnect appearing the most?

SPEAKER_01 12:30

You know what? Like that's the thing. You know, everybody's responsible, but ultimately I think from an end user perspective, the charge point operator has to be the one that takes the responsibility. And, you know, us being, you know, we're we a part of our business is a charge point operation operator. And you know, nobody forced us to pick a certain hardware, you know, it was up to us to vet that hardware, test its reliability, et cetera. No one forced a group to choose a certain credit card reader. They chose that, they sourced that, they procured that. No one just chose, say, an OCPP back office, and ultimately your ON partners, your electrical contractors, all these things ultimately come, I think, to the CPO. Maybe it's too much pressure on the CPO, and we all have a place to play in here for sure. But, you know, with that in mind, I do think that the CPO needs to take ultimate accountability for the reliability of the network because they're the ones that they're the contractors, right? They're the ones who pick the parts, the software, the people, and then they put it all together and it's supposed to work. Now, you know, the CPO could only do so well if, you know, all the chargers have issues like hardware, at least the OCPP ones. You know, they they can only do so well if they were promised a certain thing from an OCPP back office, and none of the features actually, you know, is in fact real or or functioning. So there is a lot of that stuff going on in the maturity of a business and our industry. But I do believe that there's a been a big shift in the last year or two around, you know, reliable hardware, reliable software, understanding the connectivity issues that we're facing and how to resolve it. So I'm really optimistic. I mean, I've I'm seeing it across the board, not just in our network, but across a whole bunch of different networks, that reliability is materially improving year on year, if not month on month.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, that's that's a fair assessment. And I know, you know, Field Advantage is a field service provider. There are times when we're talking to new CPO or regional CPOs that are, you know, they've already been active in the market or they're onboarding additional service partners like like Field Advantage. And one of the rub points that we have seen consistently come out, kind of in our discovery phase and early conversation phase, is is the CPO wants to know where are you going to sit as a service provider in in the conversation or in the workflow as it relates to the OEM? Because a lot of times the CPOs are are getting burned by various OEMs. And again, you made a very valid point. Look, you had a procurement team and you had a product review team and you selected what you selected, and you kind of have to live by that or or phase it out and move on to the next next option. But a lot of times the CPO is telling us, look, we don't want to deal with the manufacturer. We want you to deal with it. If you are trained on that hardware, then you work through the parts workflow, you work through the triage workflow, you work through the diagnostic, and and they're there to be a part of it. But at the same time, it's like they're trying to run a business and it's very hard when the OEMs are non-communicative or they're kind of being dismissive about a real valid issue. NeMSP is in the background saying no, it shows right on our side, but the OEM is saying no, it's all right on our side. And the CPO is kind of like in the middle, like, what do we do? You know, it's very frustrating. So a lot of times the CPO, the CPO looks to the field service provider. Look, you you connect all these dots, you make it happen. That's what we try to do as a as a service provider, is fill in those gaps. But that's good. Um kind of want to step out and and maybe zero in on maybe the the capital aspect of things. VC, private equity, money prioritized conduits in the ground, parking stalls getting lit up, but you know, maintaining the the operational aspect of chargers was kind of an afterthought. And and I know Nevi funding brought in an OM component to it, but I remember like Volkswagen money when it was rolling out to, or maybe some of the other incentives and rebate programs. It was kind of like OM was an afterthought. Not so much now, but I know when with with with private equity, basically just get parking slots with chargers in it and and the operational aspect of it was kind of an afterthought. And so kind of in that vein of unavoidable phase of growth or you know, maybe as a strategic mistake, what where where do you see that disconnect happening and what are the outputs or the effects of it today when it comes to you know not thinking about that operational side of things or however you want to answer that?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

No, for sure, for sure. I mean you you brought up a lot of good points there. And you know, to that point, when people are modeling this business, right, for like five, ten years ago, they're gonna be like, oh, revenue and adoption, it's gonna be like this maintenance, you know, like energy, you know, electricity, they're just fairly reliable. Like, what's the worst that could happen? Like, let's allocate, like, I don't know, 0.1% of the OM or whatever, you know? And then, you know, they're trying to maintain those margins, and you know, stations are failing, they're not being re regularly maintained, and cables are being, you know, cut and not replaced, and and that stuff happens, right? And then, you know, then you go back to it understanding if it five, 10 years of of data. Now you're like, oh, this is how much we're gonna we're supposed to allocate for oper ONM. This is how much we're supposed to uh allocate for, you know, um, you know, regular maintenance and and and cali calibrations and configurations and things like that. And and we need a proper, you know, the operations team, and we need to regularly service these things. We need to make sure the ports are the guns are like accumulating dirt so it doesn't melt the the ports of the charging uh ports of the cars and things like that. All these things are the valuable lessons and you know, not to say that, you know, other technologies, new new technologies have not gone through these growing pains, but you know, it's like how we go through it and how quickly we get to the other side of it, I think is the the the challenge now. And I we there's enough data points now to learn from it. And I think you know, this is where the point is is there's no more excuses. It's it's time to mature. It's not like it's not 2017 anymore. You know, what is it now, like the 10 million, 50, I don't even know, like vehicles in North America on the road, EVs, uh something like that. But you know, I I think the the numbers that we're saying is like just maturity is is is key basically to uh to our industry and we have enough data points to get there.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, absolutely. Again, not not beating up on OEMs. We appreciate the OEMs and what they're doing to help move this move this industry forward. But you know, in in in the vein of data, data has proven that some OEMs are not all OEMs are created equal, and data is kind of supporting that. And obviously without naming any names, just just kind of zooming out and thinking about the OEM as a general rule. What do you think separates the dependable OEMs from the ones that are kind of ruining uh ruining the name of the space? And again, we're not focused on the name, it's more about the actions and behaviors and what's separating the good ones from maybe the bad ones, focus maybe on the positive. What's what what are the good ones doing?

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah, I think iteration is the the key part. It's like, you know, the first anything is hard, right? But like what's the next version? What's the next version? What's the next version? If the design of your chargers is the same design as it was like five, 10 years ago, you know, it's tough to like uh take all the lessons that you learned and apply that to it to to the chargers. I mean, I remember, and again, not speaking any names, but like you think about a 50 kilowatt DCFC design from 2016, 2017, you open it up, there's like 12 motherboards, and you and you're like, and they all connect to each other like through this wire, that wire, that wire, now you're like, oh my Jesus. And now you you look at like uh these one of these like you know, Gen 3s, Gen 4, Gen 5, DCFC units, you open it up and it's everything. It's modular. It's like you just pull it out and pull it in, and those things, I mean, even they when they break, right? You know, if like a 30 kilowatt module breaks out of a, you know, I don't know, like a 180 kilowatt module thing, you're only charging 150. It's not like the whole charger's broken. So all these modular components and designs like have an overall effect to the reliability of the chargers. So I think it's it's about being able to iterate quickly and learning from previous mistakes to make these things more reliable. Yeah, I mean, it's easy said than done, right? You need capital, you need a whole bunch of other things. And I'm not blaming our industry because it's hard, you know. But I I think that's where the winners are, the people who have designed modular serviceable chargers and cabinets to to make sure these these things work all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, you you you highlighted a very key point is is the iteration component. You're absolutely right. And I think the comparison that you that you made between legacy hardware and and current day hardware, it's night and day, it's completely different when you open one up and look at the other one comparatively. So and so iteration, you're absolutely right. In fact, uh, industry colleague remarked to me either this week or maybe last week that if you are proud of version one of your product, you're probably late to market. And and makes a lot of sense when you think about it from that from that framework. If if you've if you're proud of version one, there's probably plenty of other brands and competitors ahead of you that you've modeled off of. And so you probably might be late to market or you might be entering a crowded market. And so I think there's a lot of truth to that. And so I think you've put your finger on the pulse of a key part of the of the maturation of this industry is the need for iteration and development and improvement and process improvements. Absolutely. So again, kind of zooming out and looking at the this industry as a whole, the p this this space, does the E V charging industry need uh uh you know, need to hit the pause button in some areas, not not retreat, but a pause button. Do we do we need to do some deep cleaning of the house? What's that look like for us as an industry to build momentum and and kind of rebuild credibility? Like what where do we go from here?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, I mean, for better or worse, right? Like it I think the pause button has kind of somewhat uh been pushed on us anyways, right? So it's it's not like we don't need to actively search for a pause button. But I mean at least the muted growth button has been pushed, I think, on the industry in North America and potentially in other places in the world as well. So I think, you know, that's a we take that, you know, the silver lining around that, right? Is like, okay, there might be a slight slight slowdown in our industry, but there's going to be the next inflection point, right? There's going to be another, another stage of that growth. And let's be ready for that. You know, there's like, you know, we talk about first impressions, you know, we made a first impression for what, like five million vehicles in in North America, you know, and five, so let's say five million EV owners in North America. And and but there's a heck of a lot of potential new EV owners that are going to come up in the next five to 10 to 20 years. So like there's that that's that second chance or that another time to make a first impression for the majority of drivers still on the road today. So I think we're we're we're getting pretty close. I I wouldn't even say like we're probably there at this point if we like put all of you know we put the best hardware for the best back office for the best you know field service groups like yourselves you know I think it'll be a pretty awesome experience at this point. And you know when when that inflection point hits, I think in a couple of years time people will be like, oh I'm ready for my first EV. And they that first try charging experience I feel like is going to be pretty magical especially with you know all these exciting technologies like plug and drive around the corner.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, yeah I agreed the technology is fantastic and we know that it's a very small percentage of people that convert from ice to EV that go back to ice. It doesn't mean that they offload every ice vehicle they own but there there's always going to be that competition for the uh for the EV once once you operate it, once you own it, once you are in it and you're used to it the experience, you understand it, that that conversion and return back to ICE. There's a percentage of folks out there that that can't because it's just not a viable solution or product for them for their lifestyle or whatever their needs are. But yeah absolutely you know you you mentioned you know next next couple of years I you know if you were to you know maybe put on your predictive lenses and and see what you know the next 24 months looks like do you see do you see an industry profiting? Do you see an industry an in the industry kind of floundering? What's that look like? Uh you know what are you what are your over the next two years what do you predict will will change or will iterate what what as a you know macro level what what for the industry whether you look at from the hardware or business models what do you what what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I think you know you've heard about this in in plenty of your previous uh podcast uh uh episodes but I agree with that it's just consolidation and I think that's honestly a good thing you know you know uh you know economies of scale are gonna kick in when things consolidate knowledge is going to consolidate um you know expertise ability to do things efficiently is going to consolidate with that you know not just throwing I guess like VC money at it and and just focus on growth at all costs you're you're you're we're building legitimate profitable sustainable business models to provide you know the type of quality and a reliability that I think drivers expect from us. So that I think that includes the hardware manufacturers of the EVSCs that includes the EMSPs that includes the CPOs that includes everybody. There will be a consolidation and I'm I'm optimistic that the consolidation will bring forth reliability um you know just overall better experience for drivers. Yeah I mean you look at I I heard the other day like there's like only what like three or four or five gas pump companies worldwide, you know, in terms of hardware and then you know you think about how many gas pumps there are in the world. So I'm not saying that should be the number for our industry but you know like it makes serviceability a lot easier right looking for parts and things like that. You know if it's so prevalent there's only a few of these groups and you know if a cable gets cut you don't have to necessarily wait three to six months to get a cable replacement. You know yeah I I think that's that's the ultimate theme and I'm optimistic that'll benefit the industry.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah you know it's a good call out on the on the petroleum side of things. I I don't know globally I know in the U.S. it's basically a duopoly you have Wayne and you have Gilbarco as the two primary manufacturers in the U.S. And there's 151 you know gas stations in the United States and you're gonna see one of those two brands on on the lot in the fuel fuel fueling forecourt. That's what's there and one of those two brands and I think maybe there was a third probably you know 10 years ago a third one but it it's it's phased out and so you know globally yeah could be four or five I don't know. But yeah that's that's that's an important call out and I think the the consolidation you know standpoint speaks to uh a pooling of resources like you said a pooling of knowledge bringing all that together into a single space to really exponentially grow and scale into that profitability and that sustainable business model that that everyone is is absolutely pursuing. Yeah absolutely well Carter it's been a good conversation I appreciate you sharing some time um any any parting thoughts of words of wisdom any comments that you'd like to share with the audience any anything and then also if you could I'd I'd like you to share you know if anyone wants to connect with you out what's the best way to reach out to you how can they follow what you're doing what switch is doing in the industry et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah I think the words that I'm saying is just like there's no more excuses for us and we we we as an industry need to get better and we need to talk to each other more. You know there's there are plenty of these events you know industry events let's let's talk to each other more let's let's you know the the CPOs and the EMSPs and you know the the the SIRS ONM teams like we all got to talk to each other. We got to make sure we share data with each other you know this uh the industry needs it and then we gotta we gotta really own up to to this responsibility to our drivers yeah I think hopefully we'll get there I mean a lot of great folks like including yourselves um and other groups as well that are like pushing the industry forward. So appreciate you doing this Jason and and doing all the wonderful episodes that you've done in the past. Really yeah let's let's let's we can do better and we we should do better. I think that's the my my perspective and in terms of reaching out to me I think like uh searches like my name's on on the on this episode so Carter Lee you can find me on LinkedIn happy to add you and can connect online.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Carter thanks for coming on Field Frequency we appreciate your time today thank you. This episode was produced and edited by the team at Atozi. To find out more visit autosy.co a u t o z y dot c o