The EV Talent Pendulum: Building Teams That Outlast Funding Cycles

The EV hiring market swings like a pendulum — from growth hype and inflated salaries to layoffs and capital discipline. So how do you build a talent strategy that outlasts the next funding cycle?

In this episode of Field Frequency, host Jason sits down with Josh Hallberry, Manager of Mobility at Brightsmith, a certified B Corp recruitment firm focused on the energy transition. Drawing on five years in e-mobility recruiting, Josh explains why SaaS and pure-tech hiring playbooks don't translate to infrastructure-heavy EV businesses, how compensation has recalibrated since the post-COVID boom, and what really closes the "back door" on employee retention.

This isn't a conversation about recruiters filling seats. It's about talent architecture in a volatile, capital-constrained industry — and what both candidates and employers need to understand if they want to build something that lasts.

In this episode:

• Why the EV talent pool is uniquely constrained, and whether the industry is building real depth or just recycling people
• The mistake companies make when they apply a software hiring playbook to infrastructure deployment
• How EV compensation has escalated, peaked, and recalibrated over the past five years
• Transient talent vs. genuine commitment, and what drives people to jump ship
• Employer differentiation beyond pay: mission, transparent leadership, and intentional career design
• Talent architecture vs. reactive, transactional hiring
• The myths Josh wants to debunk — including "I can't work in EV because I've never worked in EV"

Field Frequency is powered by Field Advantage, an IT field services company specializing in the deployment, maintenance, and operation of critical infrastructure, including EV charging networks. Produced and edited by Autozy (autozy.co).

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

On today's episode of Field Frequency, I sit down with Josh Hallberry, Manager of Mobility at Brightsmith. We talk about the pendulum swing between growth hype and intentional hiring. Josh covers why SaaS or tech hiring playbooks might not work in an infrastructure heavy business. We also talk about how compensation has recalibrated and what really closes the back door when it comes to employee retention. This isn't a conversation about recruiters filling seats. It's about talent architecture and a volatile, capital constrained industry, and what both candidates and employers need to understand if they want to build something that lasts longer than the next funding cycle. Let's get into it. Today I'm very happy to have Josh Holberry, manager of eMobility or manager of mobility at BrightSmith. Josh, how are you doing? Hi, Jason. I'm good. How are you? Good. Thank you for coming on. Sorry for uh messing up your title there a little bit. You correct us, correct, correct, correct me here when you uh when you introduce yourself. I'm I'm very glad to have you on. Uh been looking forward to this conversation, looking forward to to talking with you and hearing about what you're doing in the space, what BrightSmith is doing in the space. But just kind of out the gate uh for the audience, I'd like you to, of course, give us your background, your you know, an introduction to what led to you in being the seat that you're in today and what was the what was the catalyst to diving into the wild world of of clean tech and specifically e-mobility?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yeah, absolutely. No, thank you very much for having me uh on the show. It's uh it's been a pleasure. I know we've connected a few times in the past, so I was really glad that you reached out about this one. Yeah, for sure. I mean, over at Brightsmith, we really kind of focus exclusively on the energy transition space. So we are like a certified B Corp. So we went down the route of uh getting certified there, which was uh, I know for our founders, Adam, Jen, and Tommy was a big uh you know mission for them. But really, kind of we support companies across everything from EV charging, doables, batteries, grid tech, nuclear sectors. But my focus, as you said, has always been within sort of the mobility sector. Really kind of focusing on helping scale kind of commercial, financial leadership teams across that EV ecosystem. You know, for me, I wanted to align with like an impactful industry, I think, when I when I joined and fell into recruitment, as as most recruiters will always tell you, they did. But I also wanted to kind of focus on a growth challenge industry. So I've been in amongst the e-mobility space for for about five years now. Um, and I think kind of that intersection of energy, infrastructure, software, policy was was sort of the piece that really intrigued me and and a lot of others into why they kind of fell into EV as well and why it is kind of uniquely talent constrained as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah, talent constraint is is a good phrasing. I I would say that EV infrastructure headlines, they they swing between this massive growth and all these opportunities and then back towards contraction. So it's this it's this pendulum that's swinging back and forth. And so uh, you know, being in the recruitment space, specifically targeting mobility, all kinds of mobility. What does the talent pipeline look like underneath all that volatility behind that pendulum swing?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah, I think it's um uniquely dependent on the role as it is number one. I think I mentioned before, so you've got policy pieces, you've got the software pieces. It's not um just a pure tech market, as we as we all know, nor a pure energy market. Um it's kind of like that um convergence sector, really. I I can I sometimes use the phrase. And I think that kind of does sometimes create a bit of a scarcity of people should fit. But I think those who understand the entire kind of value chain on the leadership side, you know, you see people coming over from utilities and from deployment hardware, um, SaaS, you know, fleets, you know, it all kind of I think it's it's been a very, very big ecosystem that has really come together, um, which I think is you know where some companies have really thrived and where some potentially have had some challenges is finding, you know, how to find then people who can not only kind of mix together, but also kind of where those differing sectors do sometimes clash from previous experiences or previous work and how you can kind of put everything together in in a vision. But yeah, for for us, I think you're exactly right, Jason, when you say it does swing in that kind of pendulum, and we do see some up and down pieces. But I think people who are constantly on the lookout for for good talent and execution perspectives across the the whole of their pool of candidates, they're the ones that are doing the the strongest in our eyes.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Would you say that well, I'll preface my question with this statement today, actually. I was speaking with an industry colleague, recently had a change because the company that they were attached to went through a reduction in force because of funding issues. This particular individual has, you know, got some time behind them as far as experience in the e-mobility space. And so, you know, the it was disheartening for them to think that they were in a in a good situation and then found out funding and other opportunities were were kind of drying things up and and and there was a reduction in force. So, you know, given his role in space, his experience, he landed, you know, somewhere right away. So it was okay. But it makes me wonder about our industry's building up depth. And by depth I mean maturity, stability, however you want to phrase that. Are we seeing the industry growing in that capacity, or are are companies within the space just recycling people? Are we just you know, basically, I I mean, I can say myself, I have a lot of shirts hanging in the closet with different EV logos on them.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, no, great question. Um, you know, I think the certainly that that that the two dynamics exist, right? You have number one, early stage markets recycle a small experience of talent pool. You know, that's normal for for any emerging market. I think we're now seeing that in data centers, right? With some of our colleagues at mine are working in that space. You know, people then being, you know, drawn to competing organizations with more funding, with bigger scopes, bigger responsibilities. But I think with the unique part of EV, I think kind of touched it before, with like the utilities, the electrification of fleets, automotive, get involved. You know, you've even got enterprise SaaS now, kind of with the cloud infrastructure, telecommunications, when you look at people who can actually construct the EV charging stations, you know, you've got that kind of entire ecosystem that they can really lean on. Um, so it's, you know, I definitely would argue a wider plethora of talent available now, which has grown, as you've said. But yeah, I certainly think that there's a bottleneck now of um mid-level operators, I'd probably say most of our clients are challenging um to find. Um, you know, people who have taken a charging network from pilot and scaled deployments. Um now you look at areas, for example, with the uh the robotax, that's a new hot market that everyone's talking about. People obviously who who have who have done that are uh are rather scarce at the moment, as it is a bit of a newer marketplace. So it it ebbs and flows into to what skill set you are looking for. But some companies do get tripped up when when when you're looking at those, you know, kind of hires and the playbooks for what you need to look at.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

You know, speaking of playbooks, you know, when when when Brightsmith brings on a new client, there's probably some refinement that you have to kind of walk the new client through from a recruiting identification and and process, you know, mindset. So do you do you find that the companies they they get tripped up if they maybe assume a software or textile hiring playbook? Or you are they kind of coming to you as a subject matter expert and they're leaning on your expertise to know how do we start this journey to onboard talent aligned with the roles that we we envision?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, that's um very interesting question. And I honestly could say it's a case-by-case basis. I mean, whilst whilst we're on the outside looking in, you know, it's it's always a a piece that I talk about with with my clients is that, you know, whilst I I know the ecosystem, I'm not on the ground of the ecosystem. Do you know what I mean? I I'm not day-to-day speaking to to all the different clients there. But I think that the best part about being a recruiter sometimes is the fact that you can deliver insights into other organizations, the structures, how they build things and build teams that other companies or other people don't know. Um, you know, one of the biggest mistakes I see, uh as you said right there, hiring purely SaaS people or a SaaS playbook ability. You know, it's it's it's not just a digital growth problem. It will be like an infrastructure deployment challenge that, as we've mentioned before, is layered with with regulatory or or capital constraints or complexivity with with different changes in the uh in the White House, especially out here in America, but also globally, I think you look at the UK and mainland Europe, um, the best hires that are coming in aren't just scaling sort of pipelines, they're really understanding the interconnectivity of of working with utilities or rollout times or how those commercial kind of sales cycles look. And I think the the best people that we work with on the client side are the ones that are very open to hearing about customers or or clients that um you know, candidates that that are very much open to exploring different paths, different backgrounds, as we mentioned before with utilities, people coming from software or hardware. How can they transfer those skills into working to their benefit?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

So it's obviously fundamentally different from conventional tech recruiting to to to e-mobility. You've got to curate that that process with the client, the the higher the the company that retains you. You've got to kind of curate that process to understand. You might be trying to do uh uh what is it, a square peg and a round hole or something or maybe the the inverse of that of that phrasing. So I can imagine it's just a different mindset. But you said something that stood out to me, and that is basically there is a need for almost industry knowledge or you know, kind of institutional knowledge that that your client, Bright Smith's client, needs to leverage from the candidate pool. Because it and that's and kind of bringing the convergence of those two together, that that institutional knowledge that they've gained, specifically like the like you made the example with the with the utility, understanding how to navigate that that space and how does it apply to their specific need.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, I absolutely I think that we're now past the maybe the the the early growth stage of e-mobility, right? Where you had people who could come in from you could trial it out with somebody from a different background per se. But um, you know, more more common now is finding people who have got a background at least interacting with e-mobility or an understanding of of different aspects of the policies or the regulations that are involved. You know, that being said, you look at other areas like you know, finance or a public company, you can still very comfortably, I think, bring somebody over. And and, you know, we've had experiences ourselves of working with clients that have brought people over who haven't got a background in EV but have worked in EV manufacturing. Um, you know, they're very, very strong at the controllership aspects to that or raising capital. So there's certain areas that I think you know really can you can add a lot of value to any team by not just bringing somebody over who is EV charging, um, but maybe less on kind of the commercial aspect. I think you have to have that uh that's that sales knowledge and uh the connections there to maybe make a good and quick impact.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Well, I'd like to ask you a few questions that maybe those that are in the talent kind of pool or those that are are keeping their eyes open for other opportunities, their ears, if they're listening, their ears may perk up on the next few questions I'd like to talk to you about. Uh the first that I wanted to talk to you about has to do with pay and kind of the role of pay as well as career path. There was maybe some early feedback within the space that uh because of the uh uh the industry being as nascent as it is was, uh I think it still kind of is, maybe, that there was the the sense of salaries being somewhat inflated because of the the lack of of you know, maybe maturity of the industry. Is this the right price to pay? Is this the right salary to be pursuing? Is this the right salary being offered? So f so on and so forth. And what I'd like to hear is just, you know, you mentioned been in the space five years. How have you seen the compensation narratives change, evolve, pivot? What's that look like?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, um, definitely over the last five years, we've we've seen a period where compensations have escalated very quickly. I I think that's a mix between right the startup phase we've talked about after post-COVID, there was a very quick urgency, right? Of of limited pool of experience talent with a lot of jobs coming through. Um, you know, obviously the funding side of things was was also really heavy and heavily involved in in creating that. Um I think now, the last sort of year, we've seen a more mature um kind of recapitulation, I'll probably say, of where we're at. You know, the likes of Tesla, for example, I know drove up, for example, the project development, the project EPC guys that were doing the the actual kind of groundwork there. And a lot of companies that I worked with were struggling to match the budgets there two, three years ago. That's now kind of come back into alignment, I think, across the US, across Canada as well. You know, one thing I will say is that a lot of people who are working in EV right now certainly aren't chasing the highest salaries involved. I think that people are very much, they've got a personal um, you know, goal or environmental goal that they're very much looking at. You know, there's other pieces that I think with them ability that come to it, right? You've got maybe a bit more of a longer-term trajectory. A lot of customers are looking at uh, you know, sorry, automotive customers are now looking at where they can, you know, attract new, you know, clientele customers themselves and and people who want to work in that space. You know, there's a lot more long-term trajectory in EV potentially than there was five years ago than that now there is now. And so as a business scales as kind of like the architecture of maybe some of those larger OEMs, some of these more stable EV charging companies, um, you know, start to transition into longer-term players, it it becomes a little bit more of, you know, you've got opportunity to join and stay with a company through that path. Yeah, to whole handsily answer your question there, Jason. I think it's it's been up and down. We're certainly in the recalibration phase now, but I think that there will certainly be some hopefully positive news to get things moving again.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

I, you know, whether I look at it from my own personal experience, having been in the industry and and worked for for several different companies in in EV roles, or just from, you know, just uh by nature of osmosis, I've been in this space, know a lot of people across the space. It's somewhat of a cultic industry, and that people are always talking to each other and we're all kind of exchanging notes among each other and experiences and stuff. And so uh there is there's been a pattern of of of somewhat transient type of of model among the hiring pool, excuse me, the talent pool. And I've seen how that is has competed with commitment. And I I just I wonder, have you seen in this space that it is it's it's pulling in commercially aggressive folks that that you know they just want to move quickly, break things, make some money, get some good sales, or do, you know, it's just kind of they're just passing through and they're not really committed to it. Or is maybe that transient attached to personal ambitions that you know they're they're just they they want a career path that they can put some confidence in and and and maybe they don't see it at this company, but they see it over there, so they go over there and then well it didn't work out over there because they didn't understand all there was to know about working over there, and now they're looking and and it's just this movement. And so it's is it really a transient uh commitment issues? What's what's going on here with with that? Is it is it is it symptomatic of the space that companies are are having reductions in force? What what's what's your comments on that?

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah, no, I certainly think um, you know, it goes back to some of our earlier points, right? At the beginning of any sector, you have a lot more movements, people are getting higher base salaries. We've just talked about that and and and jumping ship a little bit quicker to to get some more cash. I mean, um, you know, to to to pay the bills again extra, you know, 10, 20k. Sometimes that that that's a big enough pull for a lot of people to move. Um, but I think you you you you nailed it on the head a little bit at the end there about um people talk about other people a lot as well. I think there's a lot of certain lot of chatter in in our industry about you know who's getting paid what or what deal. Usually people know exactly what deal other people are working on or are won successfully on a bid, for example, and um, you know, naturally people understand kind of what the compensation or the um the commissions might look like from something like that or the bonuses might look like. Um I think that competition is is good because it drives other people to to push one another. Um but at the same time, I think people do sometimes put the, you know, they they take off the horse blinkers a little bit and open their eyes over the shoulder to see what's going on. Um I think you know ambitious builders are naturally attracted to an emerging sector, right? You mentioned the commercial people there that are that are I I would say probably more focused on these these kind of you know transition between companies. But a lot of these you know clients of ours and and companies that I see in the industry are still trying to understand their own business models, you know, who fits into each business model, what market strategy they're going after, who they're targeting. And maybe sometimes the movement doesn't reflect kind of that. It it's not through a lack of loyalty, it's maybe lack of fit. Um, you know, as these these you know industries, you know, targets change or um you know, companies sort of change goals, and um, I know we've obviously had a very, very quick up and down story of a lot of companies that have been out there, and unfortunately some haven't haven't made it to this stage. People start kind of you know going through a couple of those cycles and and don't want to fall into that trap for a for a second or a third time, which may be another reason for for jumping around a little bit quicker. You know, I think for for for us, kind of the biggest part is is making sure when you're moving into it to a new role, you know, you've acknowledged the the structural realities of what's going on there. And number one, I have heard some horror stories of people joining companies and not understanding, you know, what what maybe who their customers are or or how much they've sold, and that is a big one sometimes. Um, but also capital shifts, right? I think we talked about it earlier. You might have a company that's absolutely flying, and and suddenly, you know, that change in government, a change in funding has has created those instability shifts that have decimated some organizations as well. So I would argue it's a mixed bag between lack of commitment of people who, you know, searching for the right long-time platform and then people who also want to truly execute as as well and be really happy in in their work too.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Another personal reference, but it's just kind of uh aligned with where our conversation is. It was probably 2018. I had been in the space maybe a couple of years, and I was trying to look at what EV had for me in terms of a long-term career path. I had spent up to that point, I'd spent a lot of time in energy infrastructure, but on the petroleum side, not necessarily the e-mobility side. And I knew that within the petroleum sector, downstream oil and gas, you know, energy infrastructure in that space, there was a career that would take me all the way to retirement. But it was 2018, I'd been in the space in, you know, focused on EV for a couple of years, and I began to look kind of at what the roadmap for a long-term career path would look like in EV. And, you know, I'd kind of tapped a couple of folks to be, you know, quasi-mentors and kind of, you know, they had been in the space for 10 years and were just kind of OGs in the space. And it was like, hey, what do you think? And and the feedback was look, if if you go over to Tesla, it's a two-year gig. If you move over here in software, you know, it's going to be a two to five year gig. And it was just kind of a just kind of a uh, you know, you get in hardware sales, you could do the and it was like, well, it was kind of jaded for a very early period. It made me wonder, oh man, is this is this really what I want to do? I don't know. But fast forward, seeing lots of changes. And, you know, I I I guess I'm making those comments to kind of tee up this this next question that I want to ask about. And it kind of it catapults from that transient versus commitment issue over to the employer side. So that's you can't really people are going to do what they're gonna do, but as an organization, employers have an opportunity to differentiate themselves. And so I would say that when Bright Smith probably brings on a new client, you are as as the SME are probably trying to guide them towards employer differentiation, to get to get beyond pay, to look at what some retention levers could be that that could focus on recruit the talent, get it in, get them in, but also close the back door. Yeah. So what does that look like when it comes to employer differentiation?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Definitely. Really, really um interesting question, I think, from from this side. I the up beyond pay, right? What what are those things that are keeping people here? And you know, we talked about mission, I think is a big part. Most people working in this space and not working in it for you know just the cash. They've got kind of some other part of of or belief in in the mobility, you know, kind of ecosystem, you know, as well. I think one of the best parts of EV is is you know, could sometimes seeing those projects go through to to completion. And you know, I myself obviously don't do the projects, but sometimes when I'm you know travelling around, I'll I'll just whip over and have a look at what charger it is, what hardware it is, you know, who who's involved in it. And I think it's people who have obviously put those in place, I bet they've got quite a good feeling about making those those changes and those impacts. But you know, I think there's several things, right, that employees can can be big on. And when we're speaking to to our clients, one of the biggest things that we talk about is is is you know, what is first of all, like what happened with a previous person, or is the growth role, for example, you know, the other piece of it is is you know, what what is the big differentiator for for you? You know, why Brightmith? Why, you know, Evigo, why Tritium, why Blink, you know, those big names. What why should the people work for you? Um, you know, it's not just for me like a clearly mapped out career progression piece. I think that's that's very positive, but there needs to be other things in this marketplace, right? Like transparent leadership. Um, you know, talk about volatility, I think that's a big part of anything. You know, a sense of building sort of an infrastructure that that's going to exist. I think people are looking at longevity and like where the company is and how they're going to continue. They don't want to be unfortunate. As we talked about before, in those kind of difficult situations, they want to have, you know, kind of an understanding of where the company's heading. I think that honesty is certainly the best policy for a lot of people in this uh in this marketplace. It's it's not for the faint hearted it's the charging ecosystem, but you know, compensation gets people through the front door. Um, and then that conversation around you know market shifting, but also you know, where you could potentially grow into you know a leadership position or intentional career design around you know how our role will involve as a company scales. You know, additionally, if there's more funding coming through, how how quickly are you looking to hire? Can you bring people on who have got um you know more mission alignment there and and have done that before, for example? So it comes down to making the right highs, but I think making an extra step to to to make them understand what they're coming into and what the mission is, is almost as important as as getting that offer out in initially anyway.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah, mission alignment. I couldn't have said it better because sometimes there's misinterpretation around what that really means. And maybe uh maybe the end is the means to the end is is where the disconnect is, is in the means to the end, how you get to that, you know, what is whatever that company is defining as success. And you know, culture, workplace culture is is almost an overplayed uh uh topic, or maybe not topic, phrase word or phrase or a buzzword, I guess what I'm trying to say in culture, because a lot of people talk about culture, but um, it's almost like there's no way for a candidate to understand a company's culture until they're a part of that culture. So employers can differentiate themselves by, you know, talking about the culture, but it's kind of like it's kind of like when you're dating someone, you don't know what you don't know till you've got some distance and time invested. And so that is one of the things that, you know, culture is companies are rising or falling in that employer retention, uh retention is, you know, anchored to that. It's like they say people don't leave bad companies, they leave bad managers. And that management component is inextricably connected to the culture. And so, you know, I think you've highlighted some some things that are key when it comes to closing that that door. It's you know, yeah, salary is gonna get them in the front door, but there's other things that are gonna kind of close that back door and help them stay put. Talent, uh, talent architecture versus maybe transactional hires. That's where where do companies maybe confuse the velocity of of the hiring path with maybe hiring strategy? And uh it's kind of summarized by you know, right person, right seat, yeah, as been said. What what is what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, I mean there's um there's probably a few examples, right? You know, one of the sometimes the common pieces of of maybe getting a huge funding round is is hiring very reactively. Um you know, sometimes that could be you know a mistake if you hire too many folk to to build things out too quickly, um, or alternatively you you know you don't hire fast enough and suddenly you're you're you're catching up. You know, I think that kind of durable organizational design of being very sequenced with your hiring, right? So you've got the deployment, you have like your you know kind of the partnership side of things, the commercial side of things starting to pick up. But I think what we see market wide as recruiters in this space is is finding people with that complementary skirt sort of skill stack is the most important piece here from you know kind of a talent architecture standpoint. You know, you want to find someone who can maybe tick two boxes rather than just one. Um I don't mean here, by the way, of finding someone who could cover three roles themselves. You know, I mean someone who can more you know, if they have to for you know, for the for the time being do this, they can. And that's really opens up, I think, some of the doors of of being able to scale. But at the same time, you've got to make sure I think going back to to closing the the back door on people, you don't want to then keep them, you know, working to the bone and and not having opportunity to grow because they're doing two jobs. Um, I think many companies do look at kind of their the hiring velocity with sort of like strategic progress, you know, they they want to rush to fill seeds, but I think the other part of it is is you know, you mentioned culture, right? You know, what sequence of hires are you going to do that's going to actually um you know impact culture or improve culture? You know, how are you gonna in improve revenues? How are you gonna kind of you know increase kind of the maybe the the time frame or the the uptime for the charges, for example? I think the strongest teams aren't built by stacking kind of big people with big titles, they're built by you know more of those complementary capabilities, people that have maybe kind of have that um cross skill set and can can mirror how other people work um is a really good way that I've really kind of advised quite a few of my clients with with kind of their hiring strategy pieces.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, that's that's good. The capitalizing on on the talent, their their flexibility around having you know multiple skill sets to kind of offer and bring to the table. And for some, it's like what you said, it's like you're not trying to assign that person three three jobs, or they're doing three jobs, walking in the door, well, and it doesn't come with three salaries. It's one salary, three jobs. That's I I get that's not what you mean. But in other words, that gives them flexibility. And there's some people that would be, you know, attracted to that. They're they're they're compelled because it's it's it's new, it's energetic, it portrays flexibility, it portrays opportunities. But then there are others that's like, no, I don't want that. That seems unstable. I want a job description, I want it to be this, this, and this, and nothing more. And I'm really uncomfortable with that line, other other duties as assigned, you know, just because they want to just get in the seat and do just that. And so I guess that's really, you know, that again, but that ties back to the to the employer finding the right person for the right seat.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah. And when you work with with with you know recruiters out there, you know, I think that that's kind of one of the most important conversations to have, right? Is is is making sure that when you're doing those kind of you know, debriefs or or or specs on of the role, you know, they're very honest with you, that you're finding someone who's going to sit in two roles and, you know, or maybe start in this kind of you know, dual capacity or have a bit of extra responsibility. No one wants to fall into that, right, and understand that they're taking those. And as you said, I know every founder that's listening probably will have sat in nine or ten of those different roles themselves from from doing things they've never done before. But um, yeah, some people don't like to to do it as well. They want to know exactly what their capabilities are, you know, where where they um uh sorry, what their job description looks like, and also kind of where they can switch off and not have to deal with at the same time. But I think we've all we've all had we know someone who's been sat in one of those roles, don't we, from from that perspective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Well, when I when I was asking you a moment ago about, you know, the difference in hiring velocity versus hiring strategy, it's kind of just you know, rush to to to to to acquire versus really focusing on building and creating that structure. Uh, you know, a particular logo came to mind where they were hiring in those waves, like you mentioned, you know, just a a wave of hires and that wave kind of caught up and then they had to eliminate and one of the lines to be eliminated had to do with program management. And so pretty much everybody in the seat of program management got cut. And then, you know, three weeks later, four weeks later, maybe it's like, oh wow, we probably do need some folks in program management. So then those roles appeared, and now it's like, oh no, we got it, we need this role. But it was like after those had gotten cut, now they're the same. And we've we've seen that. I mean, that's yeah, and no one can figure out who I'm talking about because that was that's not even been three years ago. It's been more than that. Uh hopefully no one's in trying to piece things together, find out who I'm talking about. But anyways, um that's kind of was was in the back of my head whenever I was asking you about kind of the the architecture behind the hiring path and what you know how how you navigate that as you know, kind of the subject matter expert. So uh, you know, I want to talk about you know, companies that are having to work through discipline around capital and discipline as it relates to acquiring talent. And obviously everyone's trying to be profitable, whether you're CPO, OEM, et cetera, and and and there are lines on the sheet that signal profit, and there are lines that that on the sheet that just signal cost. And and it's it's kind of hard to sort through what's signaling, what's noise in the middle of all that. And so, you know, profitability is is the goal, obviously. And so when you're when you're advising companies, how how do you advise them around calibrating their hiring? Specifically, maybe whether it's with salary, with roles, with amount of roles. I mean, how do you help them sort through? Look, this is what is mission critical now, and this is maybe the next cycle. Do you get that granular? Are you just kind of ingesting what they need and and just going in that direction? What's how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, um chinning question, Jason, on that side. I think that um you've got obviously mission critical hires. So like we need them now, you know, they're a lot easier to, I think, on a commercial standpoint, especially when you're using a recruit, so one of the biggest things is you know, questions we get asked is is how much is it going to cost? Um, you know, and if it's a mission critical hire, you need that person now. Um they're a lot more people are a lot more open to to to opening that budget or the purse strings a little bit, especially CFOs, for example. But then you've got other people, but you know, right? You've got execution hires, you've got more optical hires, and and you know, it is company by company different, I I will certainly say, you know, some have very much had very strong success with with with using you know, kind of maybe outside agencies or with within their own HR teams, and you know, the the flip side, unfortunately, some of them haven't had the the strongest relationship with some potential others. Um, but I think that that kind of argument of capital versus sort of talent, you know, it it very much is um dependent on on the now versus kind of the growth optick. You know, you've got to look at it from who are we bringing on, how are they gonna add value for us immediately, but also in six months, in 12 months, in 18 months. A lot of my um customers recently have been have been doing sort of the the 30, 60, 90 with a lot of the highs that we've done. And I think it's a really good way um not just understanding what, you know, making the the candidate understand what they're gonna be doing over that time period, but also from a company taking that step back and saying, right, okay, that we've got our understanding of 30, 60, 90, what are we gonna do for 120? What are we gonna do with 180? Um, you know, as as the capital potentially might tighten for some people, I think that they might immediately look at we're gonna stop hiring, you know, align directly with with with revenues and make sure we're we're back on that bottom line. And sometimes that can be a little bit of a hamstring um to a company because you you stop bringing some people who could be very, very good assets to you. You could um, you know, unfortunately have an issue, but at the same time, you might have to do that, right? When I'm not saying you have to keep hiring. I I think we've certainly seen a bit of a healthier shift from growth optics towards more of like a bit more like an execution you know discipline recently in the last probably year and a half. I would probably say maybe two years. The sector is maturing, um, as we talked about earlier. And I think that now we're looking at operational rigour and efficiencies rather than let's just scale. I think you mentioned earlier about the company hiring loads of people and then having to make you know cutbacks immediately. Those days have have gone a little bit. They're probably two years in the past now, as I think you mentioned, whereas you know, two years ago that was exactly what it was, right? And and now I think we're we're hiring people who who need to be hired. But making sure that you've got an understanding of of maybe where the capital needs to be deployed and where and and how quickly is is so important for any company. And they need to be, I think, talking about that a lot more than maybe some of them are.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

In the vein of maybe talking about things that aren't being talked about that you wish they would, I guess I'm gonna ask you a question because I'm I'm thinking about it from my own perspective where I've had a customer, a prospect, move from a prospect to a customer, and there was probably some things I wished I would have established with them ahead of time and probably couldn't get into it because I didn't cover it on the front end. Now we're already in the middle of it, so I probably can't bring it up now. So to that uh to that end, uh what's a myth that you would like to debunk in in this space? And what I'm asking is like, you know, something that answered from the from the perspective of the candidate or the or the hiring team. What is you know, something you can't say to an existing client of Brad Smith, but maybe a prospective client that, you know, you just want them to level set and and and kind of attach to reality, something that you or maybe it's a candidate that you want to answer, something that that they get wrong when it comes to building a role, building a team, or maybe building a career if we're looking at it from the candidate's perspective in this space. What's what's shed some light on it?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

What do you want to say? Um I think I've probably got two Jake's before I think we we've kind of touched on one, and it is, you know, I can't work in AV charging because I've not been in it before. You know, I think we talked about you know, people are coming in from all different levels of of industries, right? You know, we've got the energy companies, utilities, fleets, uh, not just EV fleets, but just generic sort of you know, fleets and you know, government is a big part of it now. People are coming into it from a policy perspective or a transportation perspective. I think that replicates into the wider mobility ecosystem as well, right? You you've got other pieces like the robotaxis, you've got the other pieces like the micro mobility sectors that have been up and down, but you can't find people who've been in that space for 20 years or 25 years. You can't find a CEO or a CCO who's been in that space for all of those times because as the data center space is going to find out, you know, they're not there. They they have might have been in early days, but they're not where they currently are now from that perspective. I think for one of the biggest ones when I speak to people who have not necessarily been in the industry, it's well, where do I start? And I think it's the understanding and and making the conscious effort to understand who the big players are. Maybe kind of where you've sold that's in a similar area of that space is a big part, or engineered in a similar kind of you know, cloud SaaS software solution, um, for example. And then probably the second one would be maybe like e mobility is kind of like just a generic tech of, you know, another tech vertical. I think it's it gives so much more than that when you when you work into it. You know, a lot of people look at EV charging and all they think about is the car. Um yeah, they don't go into the actual, you know, the infrastructure, the build out, how long it takes to put that in place, you know, the OEM side of the business. You look at the the cloud structure of it, you know, the CPRs are involved in that. I think you'll maybe have it, Jasmine, with with some of your friends or or maybe some of the family, especially. Sometimes I'm speaking to them and they just say, Oh, so do you just sell you know EV? Like what do they do? And you have to explain it into to to more detail. And um, I I think we're now moving away from from an emerging you know market into finding kind of a a company or a marketplace that's really sort of becoming you know a bit more of a staple now. You know, you see the adverts on television, it's all electric vehicles, it's the it's the new in. Um I think that story that everyone should be saying is that you know it it's good. We're we're we're making progress with it year on year. So I I really like that I work in this space. And, you know, biggest part of of of my day-to-day, especially when I go back to the UK or when I'm speaking to friends here, is telling them about the mobility sector.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah. Well, you know, Josh, you've you've I feel like you've brought a pat a positive light into this conversation. It's uh it's all been good. And I'm I imagine whether it's a prospective employer or a prospective employee that's that's uh you know in the market in the space or looking to get into the space, you've shed some important light on on some topics here, and I think you've you've shared some uh good feedback. Um so I've I've appreciated this conversation. I guess, you know, pull out the crystal ball in in in five years, what does a healthy, sustainable talent market look like in e-mobility?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I think we we might have mentioned it earlier with the sort of that mid-senior kind of operator level. I I think we talked about it right at the beginning. Um I think having kind of more of a a depth to the to the industry will be a big part of that, right? I think um I just talked about kind of like the the fluidity of moving between industries. I think that piece would be great if people can step into those spaces from grid technology, which is you know improving day to day. I think Octopus just had a big pledge of uh a huge you know move from the UK into California, didn't they? And that's all on the grid tech and the EV side. So, you know, I think that kind of adjacent sector movement would be great, the fluidity piece there. But also I think more of a um stable government maybe funding cycle would be great from from any anyone that answered that question where it would make everyone's life a lot easier. But also, I think you know, people having that kind of positive spin. I you know, I've always been very positive on bullish on this. I think when you sometimes are in the sector, things aren't going as great as they should be. A lot of people get down very quickly. Um, and then we talked about start looking over their shoulders. I'm gonna be moving on to a new. I'm not saying you know, stick through the bad times, but I I think that if we can all kind of move towards that sort of you know mission as a as a whole, if government things move in the right direction, we're we're all gonna be in good spots as as people are in the beginning of a of a new industry.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah, I agree. Josh, it's been a great conversation for those that are listening and want to connect with you directly, want to reach out to you, want to want to learn more about Bright Smith. What's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, please visit our um our amazing website that uh our marketing lead Vic Fate. Uh, additionally, connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, I will be at the EV charging summit in March with the team, or additionally, drop me an email over um j.horbre at bright smithgroup.com.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Very good. Thanks for coming on, Field Frequency Josh. Thank you very much. This episode was produced and edited by the team at Atozi. To find out more, visit autosy.co a-t-o-z-y.co