Charging 3.0: Beyond the EV Charger Ribbon Cutting

A charger can be online, well-located, and still fail commercially. Uptime tells you the hardware works. Utilization tells you the business works — and right now, too many stations are stuck at 1–4%.

In this episode, Jason Cortes is joined by Loren McDonald, founder of Chargeonomics, to unpack what actually pulls an EV driver to a charger: pricing, retail partnerships, customer experience, amenities, and — increasingly — showing up in the car's navigation screen.

Recorded the same morning the news broke, they dig into EVgo partnering with Tesla — a move Loren calls an "earthquake" — and why the real battleground has shifted from who deploys the most hardware to who wins the driver.

Along the way:

• Why Walmart, Costco, and the new convenience stores are rewriting the playbook through "habit stacking"
• The Francis Energy site that jumped 5x in utilization overnight — with no change to location or amenities
• NACS vs. CCS, and the flawed assumption that adding a plug brings the Tesla drivers
• Why rideshare and fleet drivers are the "business travelers" of charging
• What "Charging 3.0" looks like — loyalty, retail data, and real differentiation
• How ChargeMate's AI support is solving the "hidden failures" that never show up in the data

If you build, operate, or invest in EV charging, this one reframes where the next phase of the industry is actually won.

Field Frequency is brought to you by Field Advantage, a national field services organization supporting EV charging infrastructure across the United States.

Guest: Loren McDonald, Founder, Chargeonomics Host: Jason Cortes

Enjoying the show? Follow Field Frequency on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave a rating to help more people in the industry find it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

A charger can be online, well located, and still fell commercially. Uptime establishes operational values, but utilization determines whether the business actually works. In this episode, I'm joined by Lauren McDonald. We dig into what truly drives utilization and it goes beyond location. We examine how pricing, retail partnerships, customer experience, amenities, and brand visibility are going to be the competitive weapons. The next phase of charging won't be won by whoever deploys the most hardware. It will be won by whoever pulls in the EV driver. Let's get into it. The Field Frequency Podcast is brought to us by Field Advantage at Field Advantage as a national field services organization supporting EV charging infrastructure across the United States. Today I'm very happy to have Lauren McDonald, founder of Charge Enomics, with us today. Lauren has spent years analyzing EV adoption, charger utilization, the Nevi program, the competitive forces shaping our ever-changing charging market. Lauren, so glad to have you on Field Frequency.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, yeah. No, it's great to be on. And uh, you know, we'll probably get into this, but you and I actually sort of go way back, and you were one of my uh I think you were my second customer back when I was tracking the Nevi program, and you actually helped me sort of formulate that and stuff. So I appreciate that. And uh we had some good times down at the uh Field Advantage headquarters. You you and the team turned me on to bourbon. I was never a bourbon drinker, and so I I I left that evening there uh with a new appreciation for bourbon. So I thank you for that as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I I guarantee uh at your next visit to uh to campus, you will find uh probably bottles there uh in the lodging area, I'm sure. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Well, we've wanted to have you on field frequency for for some time now and finally schedules aligned and it all came together. Of course, uh certainly want to get you back uh beyond this episode. But uh for the audience, I'd I'd like to dive into you know what you've been doing in the space, like you said, from tracking the NEVI program, the EV adoption database up to where you're at today. You've done a lot in the space, of course, you know, well, well recognized, well known in our industry as well. But let's talk about the the pathway through EV adoption, the NEVI program, you know, even share your time as chief analyst at Perrin and then talk to us about what you're building at Charge and On.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah, yeah, no, great. Yeah, it's um and and I actually I did a post on LinkedIn about this the other day. But you know, I I ever since I was a little kid, even before EVs were kind of a thing, I knew that the future was gonna be electric vehicles. So it was just kind of in my my DNA that I just always knew in my heart and gut that that you know electric vehicles were going to be the future. I'm not quite sure how I knew it, but I just did. And uh, you know, I I almost got an EV, a GM EV one back in '96, I think it was, but I didn't qualify for the lease or something like that. So I I didn't get one. And I applied for a job in 1994 with U.S. Electric Car, which was out here in California, one of the first they actually sort of they took existing cars, like I think the the GM Prism car and they basically retrofitted it with the electric powertrain and stuff. And uh I I tried to get a job there and and didn't, which is a good thing because they they ended up not doing so well or haven't been around for a long time. But you know, I I the point being is is that I was always fascinated by you know the the transition and and to to electrification and stuff. And so uh I was I I had a 35-year career in in in marketing, but in back in uh I think it was about 2013, uh I actually tried to get a Tesla model Model S back then. I had the contract done except for the signature, but then my wife was doing uh basically carpooling for like four teenage girls, and she said, no sedan, we need an SUV. And so that delayed our our first EV about three years and stuff. But but I started about then, I started a blog writing about solar and product and recycling and water and EVs and like everything. And after a couple of years, I you know, one day I woke up and did some reflection and said, I'm I'm just like, you know, an inch deep and a mile wide on all these sort of sustainability things. And I said, I need to focus on something. And uh it was down to two things, either water, because living here in California, we're always, you know, we're always having water issues and stuff, or EVs. That was sort of my choice. It's like turn left, turn right. And I I thought that electric vehicles had a more interesting sort of behavioral economics sort of, you know, underpinning and and questioned. Like, what is it gonna take to get Americans, you know, those road trip loving, truck driving people to to adopt EVs? And you know, 15 years later, we're starting to see, you know, nothing, right? They're adopting it. But it was really it was really that. And so uh in 2017, I launched EV adoption, a blog and and my business and stuff, and then um was doing a lot of forecasting and and you know, tracking EV sales and charging and everything like that. And and then yeah, when when the Nevi program came around, it was literally I woke up one Saturday and said, I should build a database to track Nevi. And did and you know, and talked to people like you, gave me a lot of feedback. And that, you know, that program really kind of I was already sort of on the map, but that program really sort of, you know, took my my personal brand and and awareness to another level and you know, got a lot of clients and and built sort of a platform around that, did hundreds of media interviews, program and things like that. And then ultimately that led to um Perrin, you know, acquiring my business and hiring me as chief analyst. And that was that was really sort of exciting and fun because uh working with Bill Farrow and the and the amazing data that Perrin has. I was I was we always used to joke that I was like a kid in a candy shop, right? Like taking this data and and trying to make sense of it and understand the trends of the industry. And I I left after a year for a variety of reasons, but but you know, one of them was just sort of health and wanting to cut back on the hour, you know. I was working at a startup, and if anybody's I've worked in many startups and it was a lot of hours, right? Mostly my fault. But I wanted I wanted to sort of cut back. Uh anybody can look at my face, see I'm not a youngster. And uh so it was, you know, I wanted to have a little bit more control over my time. And but after I left, I took some time, Jason, to kind of just sort of reflect. And uh I was in like sort of no hurry. And what I what I realized was is that I'd spent, as I mentioned, 35 years in marketing. So I had this background in marketing and consulting and understanding data and trends and stuff, and in like, you know, 10, 15 years analyzing what was going on in EVs and EV charging, and what I realized was I should marry my marketing background and sort of my EV knowledge and data and stuff. Because what I would have realized was uh is that the the charging industry seems to be overly focused on everything up to the ribbon cutting, right? Uh like my LinkedIn feed, and I know you see this as well, it's just every day there's like a ribbon cutting and all these politicians and the vendors and everybody show up and stuff. But it's like that's when the hard work really starts. Yes, I know there's a lot of hard work and you know, utility negotiation and trenching and contracts and all this stuff, but where the where the rubber meets the road or where the driver meets the charger, right, uh is how do you acquire and retain customers and marketing, right? And how do you build a great customer experience? So it was this intersection of of customers and CX, right? And and marketing and things, and and how do you build this? And when I started looking in at the data, the like the parent utilization data, quite candidly, and what we'll get into this, it was not pretty. And that just sort of confirmed, okay, this industry really needs help understanding. They're so focused on hardware and maintenance and you know, utilities and all this kind of stuff. But very few are focused on actually how do we grow and retain customer base and and deliver a seller customer experience. So that was a long setup, but that's really kind of brings us up to where I am literally today, right? That is just just my sort of now super sort of razor focus is is on that aspect.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So to to that end, thanks for for that background, because from those, I mean, we're all we're all connected in the world of LinkedIn, but to be able to hear the story and the trajectory is is important. Uh let's double click on chargonomics. Like what is is it what what is that convergence of all these things that you've mentioned? What what is ha what is taking shape through the building of chargeonomics and what is the same thing? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

A lot of it is sort of you know continuing, if you will, what what I've been doing. It's it's all about the data, right? It's it's just it's all about tracking and understanding the data and converting that into sort of trends and meaning and insights. And as I mentioned, you know, I'm still tracking like EV sales and and trends that are going on, you know, which EVs have, you know, NACS connectors and what power level they have. I'm sort of tracking all things EV because those things affect, you know, sort of demand for charging and the type of charging and and where and and all those types of things. But as I mentioned, you know, it's been sort of progression the last uh it's hard to believe it's almost been a year since I've I've I've left Parent. It's been 11 months, but it's allowed me and working with a lot of different companies and partners and things like that, of of really focusing in more on this answering this question of now that you have the station open, right, how how do you actually create success? How do you actually grow sessions and utilization and build brand and loyalty and a customer experience? And so that's that's really sort of the focus now is and and a lot of that is uh is again using data from companies like Perrin to to understand what's going on in a in a competitive market and help companies understand what's realistic for them, like where where where things are going and then and then how they uh how they improve that, right? What steps they need to take to to grow those sessions and utilization.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah. Going back to your comments about post-ribbon cutting, right? Yeah, now the site's active, differentiations, feature sets, amenities, et cetera. What what keep what you know because obviously the ROI is going to be driven by that utilization. Utilization is being driven by those that select that as the charging station. So I reflecting on some recent events. So within this within the month of July, I found myself at a Tesla charging station in El Paso, Texas. The shade, the shaded area was 105, 106 degrees in the shade. Yeah. So there I am at a charging station, and you know, using the using the charger, it's just it's just barreling down on us. That that Texas El Paso heat, uh, El Paso, Texas heat and sun, no shade, no canopy, etc. Then fast forward uh at the end of this month, or at the end of July rather, I'm at you know, Power Up America, a new a new CPO, emerging market, and we're out there at that ribbon cutting, there's a canopy over using. Yeah. And you know, certainly different, different climates from that site in Kentucky to, you know, El Paso, Texas desert area. You know, it was it was notable. And so as an EV driver myself, I'm looking at those amenities. That's important to me. That is important to me. I can sit under a canopy with the AC running and stay cool. Sitting in that sun at that charging station with no canopy, it didn't matter. Full blast. We we were sweating. We were we were hot. And so that differentiation, you know, you look at like like Walmart. Walmart is an example of someone entering the DC fast charging market in a in a really big way. Really big way. Yeah. I mean, look at the amount of growth that they've had and the amount of time. And we know they they originally partnered with Electrify America, allowed easement onto the property, EA operating on their site, but they're bit they built their own network and they're what eighty stations across 17 states.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

There were 80. I think they're, you know, I mean they're opening like you know a couple a week now, I think. So, you know, they'll be at a hundred stations here, you know, probably by the time this podcast airs, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah. So, you know, let's talk about that differentiation. Maybe in this case, it's a it's a it's a matter or a question of pricing, and you know, pricing that they're offering to to Walmart plus customers or member, you know, membership discounts. What is what is what is an operator like Walmart, what does scale for them look like and expansion mean and and what's the impact on the driver?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah, yeah. So uh there's a lot to uh uh unpack there, but uh, you know, with with Walmart specifically, uh I I I think one of the things we're seeing, and and we saw it with an announcement from from EVGO uh a few days ago where they partnered with uh a shopping center developer to open, I I'm gonna get this wrong, I think it was like you know 300 locations in in the next several years, something like that, pretty significant. And I think what what companies like Walmart and now Costco and you know a lot of these different companies are getting to the space is there's there's this pivot from CPOs going, you know, where's the best location to put a charger to? And then like what amenities and everything do we add to actually who do we partner with that already has the customer and all of the amenities and things, whether it's shopping, eating, dining, you know, whatever it is, to do while they charge. In other words, the and we'll probably maybe we'll talk more about this later, but it's it's it's this concept I call, you know, charging habit stacking, right? Of where you're already doing things and it's oh, by the way, you know, I'm gonna be parked for 20 minutes or nine hours, right? And so I can I can charge, I can plug in. And Walmart, I know you were there in in the 2025 uh at the EV charging summit in in Vegas, and Walmart was on the keynote panel, and you know, they clearly understood this. And the the the speaker talked about, you know, people typically come into Walmart for like 40 minutes, and that's just about exact amount of time, you know, uh a lot of the cars take to to fully charge or whatever. And and that's really the the key, Jason, right, is is that the the the the smart people in the industry are understanding that uh it's all about the customer, right? How how do you get the customer? If you don't have the customer, you know, your charging station doesn't matter, right? You know, and and um we're seeing too many stations that have, you know, one, two, three, four percent utilization, right? And if you know, if you want to be successful, you gotta get, you know, 15, 20 percent or whatever, most likely. And and that's what you know these these retailers like Walmart understand. They have the X in their case, they have massive expertise and understanding in energy. You know, they have a lot, they have, you know, relationships with utilities, a lot of their uh stores and warehouses have massive solar deployments and stuff. So they understand the energy side, they understand retail, and they learned, I'm sure, from partnering with Electrify America for several years, and then it was like, okay, now we know we got this, right? And and so our value proposition is you know us, you trust us, you're already shopping with us. Well, by the way, why don't you plug in and charge when you're with us, right? And it gives so it gives people another reason to go there, but also you're not changing, you know, you're not going, where am I gonna charge on my road trip or or stay on the way home from work or whatever? It's just like, oh, I'm gonna go shop at Walmart and plug in. It just becomes this habit stacking idea. And so I think that's one of the biggest ahas. I don't think everybody fully understands it yet, but I think I think they're starting to. And I think in a lot of the announcements we've seen lately, and even with with Ayana, I know you had Seth Cutler on uh a while back. And you know, what did they do, Jason? They started out with all these big, you know, greenfield charging stations with lounges and and canopies and all this kind of stuff, like as you know, really expensive stations. And then what did they start doing? They started partnering with Sheets and APs and I think Wawa as well. Um, and then the big one was Circle K, where they basically are taking over Circle K's charging business, right? And they're actually ripping and replacing a lot of the existing infrastructure. And, you know, and so think about that, right? What what is what is a convenience store chain? They have the parking lot, they probably have the power and enough power, maybe not in every case, so you don't locate there, right? But they have canopies in a lot of them, they have bathrooms, they have food, they have beverages, right? In some cases, they have gourmet food and you know, like great like fried chicken sandwiches or homemade type ice cream, like a lot of these new convenience these you sort of convenience store two point convenience stores, you know, they're they're not like your grandfather's convenience store, right? Like they're they're like some of them serve sushi and things like that, right? It's a different experience. And maybe they have uh tables and chairs and Wi-Fi and stuff. So, you know, then it's just the question for a CPO like Ayana is, you know, is there enough room in the parking lot to replace? And this that's always, as you know, a tough conversation, right? Because um those parking spaces at many convenience stores are few and far to far to come by, right? And so it's it's do we have enough room to sort of put that in? But basically the the equation changes, Jason. Instead of like, okay, we've got to add awnings and lounges and bathrooms and food and all this kind of stuff, it's like we can just focus on our core competency, which is building a great charging experience and take advantage of that partnership with with the retailer. So I I think that's you know one massive trend that we're gonna start to see. And then Walmart, uh back to Walmart on sort of like the pricing. You know, they when they first announced this a couple of years ago, one of the things they they talked about was, you know, kind of their low price. I forget what their their slogan is, low price every day or something like that, right? As you can tell, I'm I'm not a frequent Walmart shopper, but but you know, they have that scale and and and ability because they also have two sources of revenue, right? They're not relying on the charging revenue. The the real margin business is getting the people out of the car and in the in the store and then spending, you know, $173 on clothes and food and and and everything else, right? And so I think that mix is is gonna be one of the other sort of big, big changes. Um and maybe it's the the charging three point uh change is as we saw with with gas stations, right? Uh, you know, when when gas stations started out, you know, they were like a single pump and it was just selling gas. Maybe there's an extra store or something. But you know, when I was growing up, um, you know, like in the 60s, you took your car to the local gas station to be serviced. Right? They were called service stations in like the 60s and 70s and stuff. And then what happened? They they morphed to become, I know it's it's I was talking to somebody yesterday. It's apparently it's different on the East Coast. There still are a lot of convenience stores with service base. Out here in the California and stuff, there's very few. They they morphed into becoming convenience stores that, oh, by the way, we have a bunch of gas pumps out out front, right? And you know, if you step back and think about the the evolution of the the you know, the charging business, particularly the the fast charging business, you know, it's it's probably gonna see a s a similar trajectory where it's its role and and model and business model and stuff changes, changes over time, and that ultimately people are gonna realize well the real the real opportunity is is the retail revenue and you know and the you know the the the refueling part is just what's get what gets them in the door, hopefully gets them in the door. And and what we really want is that add-on revenue, right? I mean we're always gonna see probably just standalone charging stations, but uh, you know, that that's gonna work in some places, but not in not in others. And I think that real model is that more sophisticated combination of of all those, you know, amenities, retail and and additional revenue opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, and you know, you mentioned Iona, they're an example of an operator who has different different I'll call it products, different products. They got the rechargeries, they got the in different scaled sites and different sets of amenities and you know, baseline amenities, baseline charger, baseline charging output, baseline pricing for the, you know, per kilowatt. But but the the on site configurations are different. We see that on the petroleum retailer side to your to your earlier point of, you know, it's I I remember as a kid, you know, you didn't you pulled up to the gas station and someone filled your vehicle and they checked your oil and it was a service station model. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Think about that, right? Think about that, right? Yeah. You know, clean your windows. I've forgotten about that, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah. Yeah. I I I because I remember just that as a kid, just sitting in the backseat, and you know, that's what's happening around us and happening to us as we pulled up to the server station to refuel. And then of course, things evolved.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Well, you want me to add some air like service? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

And so then we added the self, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, yeah. Then yeah, self-serving. And then and then, of course, you know, and then eventually we evolved into paying. You didn't even have to go inside the store. Now you're paying at the pump. You there's yeah, there's a transaction opportunity there. And then, you know, of course, the retailers back then were all freaking out. No, we want them to come in store. That's where our higher margin profiles are. If they can pay at the pump, they won't come in the store. That didn't change. That didn't change. They continue to go in the store. And then, of course, things have evolved. And so now, like the operators you mentioned, the sheets and the wahwas and the the buckies of the world who have a destination. And so charging is a natural bolt-on. And going, you know, going to your comments about the habit stacking. I don't I don't really think about charging. I, you know, charging is I make charging convenient to me, not something I have to do. I'm going to charge either, you know, right now in my driveway, my leaf is charging, but if I'm out in the market or traveling beyond the range of my battery, I'm going to be looking to pull off and charge somewhere in the public domain. But you know, the the the CPO of yesterday, the CPO of today, and the CPO of tomorrow will by nature all look different. They have to look different. But what does the CPO of tomorrow look like? And it goes back to your comments around differentiation and the partnerships, like you mentioned. You know, Electrify America and Walmart were partnered at a time. Now Walmart is coming to market with its own charging network and still leveraging the on-site amenities that attracted EA in the first place, but now it's a it's an expansion of the customer opportunity that Walmart has, because like you said, 40 minutes. You know, I I remember some data, and it's it's it's probably it's maybe getting close to a decade old around Target and their review of sites with level two chargers and the and the difference in in the the basket stack for the EV driver versus the non-EV driver. And you know, you think about it, you're drive, especially on level two charger, you're gonna be a little bit more intentional as you're walking as you're pushing the basket through the store. Do we need toothpaste? Do we need toilet paper? Do what do we need? What do we need while we're here? Let's do that.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

So we got plenty of time. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah. But differentiation, you know, that's where that's where it gets into it. And so, you know, you mentioned uh, you know, tracking OEMs with with Knaxx ports. The charging industry and automakers have have standardized on or standardized around for the most part the Knax connector. And and you're seeing BEV models come to market with the Knaxx port on it. But then you also have major CPOs like the ones we've already talked about, Iona and Walmart, Mercedes-Benz, et cetera. And they're they're deploying a mix of charging protocols, the CCS and the NAX, and you know, to kind of bring in everyone. You know, talking about differentiation, talking about, you know, the experience, the charging experience, is the charging industry, do you think we're we're moving closer to NACs and we're gonna you know finally consolidate around one plug eventually, or is this you know, we we're gonna be what's that look like.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah, it's it's uh it's it's a it's a challenging question for a lot of the CPOs, and we're seeing them take sort of different different approaches, right? The the ones that you mentioned, these sort of, you know, what I'll I'll call the the sort of the newer charging 2.0 players, the Walmarts, the Mercedes, the IANAs, um, you know, the BP Pulses, you know, people like that, where they're you know, they've sort of entered the industry in the last few years and all of their well, except for like the obviously the Circle K IANA locations and stuff, but but but all of their locations are basically sort of like greenfield, if you will, right? They're sort of new and stuff, and so they're going in and they have they have kind of these models of, you know, maybe eight, eight to ten, uh, you know, 350 or 400 kw chargers, right? Like they have this sort of whole model built out of of of of size and everything and how they deploy. And and most of them have gone 50-50 or like 40-60, 40 NAC, 60 uh percent uh CCS connectors on these sort of eight, 10, 12 port port stations and stuff. But then, you know, you look at uh EVGO and you know, I listen in on the the quarterly EVGO earnings presentation every every corner quarter. And and and Bonner, the CEO there, has talked about, you know, they've been you know sort of slowly adding them, they're sort of testing it and stuff, and they're seeing adoption, but you know, he basically has admitted that you know it's taking some time. And there's some big news that that was announced uh today, the day that that we're recording this, Jason. But there was this there's this theory that I think is completely flawed by a lot of CPOs, which is if we had NAX connectors, we're gonna get all these Tesla drivers coming to our station. And um the reality is is you know, having driven three Teslas in the past, I'm currently in a different, different brand, but uh, you know, there's more Tesla ports and chargers and everything, and it works seamlessly, and some people still have free charging and stuff. And uh, like, why would you go to a non-Tesla charger driving a Tesla? And and I the reality is more people driving these new B V models that have an Axe port built in are actually gonna start migrating more to to the Tesla supercharges, right? And once once they experience it, or maybe they were former Tesla drivers, right? And you know, they've got plug-in charge, whatever, it just sort of works seamlessly, and they you know they set up the app and and the account and stuff. I I think the the industry has sort of been misguided that they're gonna get all of these like you know, four to five million Tesla drivers to start coming to their stations. You you'll get some, of course, but the reality is it's more it's more the other way. And so I think the the you know the the major players that we've talked about that are doing this, they're because they're new, they're targeting the new vehicles that are coming out with these and hoping and crossing their fingers that they'll get a few Tesla drivers and stuff. But the the smaller players and the other players, like they're gonna have a real tough time attracting Tesla drivers. Um and in the big news that that that came out this morning, Jason, was that uh EvGo, the third largest charging network in America, announced that they're gonna partner with Tesla and they're gonna launch uh EVGO superchargers, which is a big term. And and funny enough, in the press release, they didn't mention Tesla Supercharger for business, which is something that we'll we'll probably talk about on this this call. But so I don't know if they have like a separate partnership around it, and it's not it's different from the standard Tesla Supercharger for business program. But to me, that's like an earthquake in the industry. I looked at the background with like the frequency. This is this this is like you know, it's to me, it's an earthquake because we've seen smaller companies and Francis Energy adopt the the Tesla supercharger for business, but EVGo, the third largest PTO in the country, now saying they can do this. Why? Why are they doing this, right? And the press release, and I'm gonna actually post something on LinkedIn half after the this recording. Uh there was a there was a statement in the in the press release that it's it's uh we will show up in the in-car navigation of more than four million Teslas. And they said that's what this conversation is all about between and today. That point, right? We will we'll talk more about this, about how um you know what's driving success as a as a CPO. But you know, it that's what it comes down to, right? I I my wife and I are now after three Teslas, we're driving an Audi Q6 Etron. We have one year of charging with Electrify America. Guess what shows up on our navigation when we go on a road trip? Electrify America, yeah, right? And there are millions of people, Hyundai Ionic 5 drivers, etc. And maybe they no longer have the free charging. But guess who still shows up in their navigation? Not EBigo, not Tesla, not IANA, right? And that's why Iana actually has a chance because they have eight automakers that will gradually make that happen and discounts and partnerships they've already started to. But but the reality is is this is what I'm focused on, and and the big issue is um if you don't have those partnerships and you don't have partnerships with Uber and Lyft for rideshare drivers like uh you know Evgo does and some of the other players, right? That's that's foundational to success, right? Those drivers, you know, some of them, I when I go into you know, Uber or Lyft, I always, and it's it's electric in the driving electric, I always like, you know, pester them with questions and stuff. Some of them, the full-time drivers, some of them will charge two times, three times a day, six days a week.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Think about that, right? 15, 20 times potentially uh a week they they might charge, right? For the like the full-time serious ones. You know, you and I might charge on a road trip once every couple of months or something like that, right? So it's it's it's it's the the key is understanding who your market is, how you attract them, and how you attract those uh high value for high frequency drivers, right? So you have that strong foundation of a business. I I always I always relate to sort of the airline industry. You know, I'm a loyal Delta flyer, have 1.4 million miles on Delta. Even though I live near San Francisco, which is a United hub, I I switched to to Delta and uh I still fly them and I will fly, you know, with stops and connections instead of like using another airline to go direct because they take really good care of me. I'm loyal, I get rewards, I I like their experience. And um you know like that's one of the next phases I I think of of of the charging industry is is there's there's sort of like the retail aspects that we've talked about that they're gonna adopt. But I also think you know there there's gonna be companies like, okay, we're the Delta, and otherwise can say we're the Southwest or you know, or they formally spirit or whatever it is. Um they're gonna they're gonna target different different segments, but the the rideshare drivers are kind of like in a different way, they're kind of like the the business travelers for you know like Delta and American and and and United and stuff is uh there's a small number of them compared to every American that you know flies to to go somewhere. But like when I when I used to fly a lot, you know, uh sometimes I would fly you know three or four times a month, right? You know, like I would I would do like 70 segments a year, 150,000 miles one year, right? Like that's you know, those are the people you want to take care of and attract, right? And um, so I'm sort of going in a sort of circle here, but that brings us back to the EVGO Tesla announcement kind of today. EVGO already had 25% of their throughput has been rideshare drivers, like massive, right? Think about that. One quarter of their business comes from a tiny customer segment of of rideshare drivers, right? And but but I think this this you know this new partnership with with Tesla is kind of the other piece of this. It's like, okay, so how do we how do we track and retain customers? Well, it's all about being in the in-car navigation because that's how most people determine where they're gonna where they're gonna stop, especially on like road trips and stuff. So that's like the next challenge in battle, right? Is how do we get how do we get inside the navigation or how do we do these fleet or rideshare and other kind of partnerships? Partnerships with apartment complexes that don't have charging. So you have a fast charging station across the street and you go to the 200 unit apartment complex owner, and you say, you know, we'll do a we'll do a partnership with you and give your your apartment owners that drive EVs like a discount or preferred pricing it late at night or whatever it is. Like this industry is gonna have to start being really strategic, thoughtful, and creative about how they do one thing, which is attract, retain, and serve customers.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah. Going going to your comments, going back to your comments around EVGO's partnership with Tesla. You know, Tesla Supercharger for Business is just one more example of of Tesla as a as a disruptor in this industry and market mover, market influencer, market reshaper in this space. Because I mean, I when Tesla for or super rather supercharger for business uh was announced, of course, every manufacturer stood to attention because what is the impact of that? You know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because every manufacturer is now thinking about what that impact is. And then, of course, CPOs. And so you you mentioned third largest CPO in the U.S., EVGO, is is now made an announcement that that's the way that they're going to leverage. I know when Supercharger for Business was first announced, their sites were not appearing on the data on the HMI of the Tesla units. That's now changed, I believe. I believe now those those those third party sites show up.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

I think I think it that I think it always was. I think it that the because I think that's what was the key thing that attracted people to do it. But but what's actually changed recently, and and I'm guessing with this EVGO announcement, they something is like might might change again and stuff. But but a couple months ago, they sort of rocked the world with an announcement that they did an update to the Tesla app where drivers could actually toggle a setting in the app that would not show the Tesla supercharger for business stations. Just the negative. Freaked everybody out, right? Because wait a minute, that's the sole reason, the main reason we signed up for this program is you would bring us, you know, millions, millions of potential drivers and stuff. So uh obviously I don't have any insight into the EVGO Tesla contract and partnership, but uh, you know, I'm sure that would have been really concerning to them because that would be the whole reason you're doing it. The press release even said that, right? We're gonna show up in the in-car navigation. So maybe they're softening that or or rescinding that, that, that, you know, choice for for consumers and stuff. But uh, but regardless, yeah, I mean, that's just it's just it's just who huge, right? You think about you know, half or more of the EVs on the road in America are are Teslas, right? And you know, think about that, right? Like if if you're uh you know, if you're like Suncoast Charging, which was the first CPO to to basically become a business because of that program, right? Like they have double the market opportunity of drivers by being part of that. Double, right? Just think about that, right? And so it's it's it's it's massive. And so this this I I as I mentioned, I said I think today's announcement with EVGo is kind of an earthquake, right? Because we saw this sort of building oh, a lot of small regional guys, two guys in a in their in their kitchen, you know, getting into the business, right? Because Tesla took care of so much of it, you know. All we have to do is like design the the logo to put on our on the Tesla superchargers. I'm being a bit facetious. Sure, sure. It's more involved than that. Yeah. But and then Francis Energy, right, got into it. And that was like, wow. That was like, that was sort of like when Jim Farley got on Twitter with with Elon Musk and said, we're we're gonna adopt Knacks, right? Like that was like, you know, that that changed the whole industry, right? And I think when Francis announced it, you know, that was like, okay, it's not just two guys in their, you know, their kitchen. This is like, you know, a significant player adopting it. And uh, you know, and they've already seen one of the executives already, you know, sort of posted, I'm sure you saw it as well on LinkedIn about a month ago or so, that uh they ripped and replaced some of their same sites, right? And they saw a 5x utilization increase like overnight. And to me, that was, Jason, that was that was another one of these big points that I've been trying to shake the industry, right? Everybody talks so much about location and amenities and things like that. But here's an actual lab case, right? The location didn't change, the amenities didn't change, nothing changed. What changed was the Tesla hardware and four million people seeing your, you know, the potential of all those Tesla drivers being your navigation. And overnight, they saw a 5x increase in utilization, right? And yeah, it's just it's just like it's massive. And you know, to sort of put a bow on that, it just just I'll be repeating myself. It's it's all about how you get those customers. And it starts with being in the in-car navigation.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Right. That's absolutely right. You know, we think of in a traditional fueling environment, there's the big price sign that's out on the side of the road and it's high enough to put it. It's the big sign. Yeah, it's now the sign in the vehicles, and it you just dropped it in there. You just dropped the sign inside the HMI.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

It's inside the car, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah, inside the screen. That's absolutely right. And and you know, echoes of everything that you've just said, uh there are three episodes of Field Frequency that come to mind. Uh one was Joe George with Cox Automotive, uh, the other was John Eichberger with the Transportation Energy Institute. And then this week an episode released by Omar Riotti with uh Percepta. And there was there was rhymes and echoes in all three of those episodes that really centered around retailers leveraging the their availability into the screen, into the navigation, into the dashboard of the vehicle, and and how do retailers leverage that? And I'm you know, that's an aggregation of all three of those episodes, and that's not each of those episodes stood alone, but but but but to the point of the the the price sign now inside the car, and now you can just w navigate to it was was a theme, and and yet now we've seen the third largest CPO take that and and literally leverage it. And what is that utilization gonna look like? You mentioned some of the you know the startups, you mentioned Suncoast. Uh, you know, I know Dave Patrick of of Suncoast, and we've we've got them uh on the shortlist as well as some other businesses that have that are emerging CPOs or leveraging a supercharger for business, and and we've got them on the shortlist uh to come on Field Frequency and talk about their business and what they're gonna be doing as as an operator, leveraging that as their maybe their principal solution. Maybe they don't have anything else but that. I think it'll be interesting conversations. But uh yeah, uh amenities, yeah. This this is this is certainly uh pointing towards uh charging 3.0. You you you you coined the term charging 2.0, but uh you know, maybe what what does charging 3.0 look like? Just uh you know paint with a broad brush there, Lauren. What do you see? What's that look like?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah, uh to to to to be candid, you know, I haven't given charging 3.0 a lot of thought yet. But I think I think we've we've actually outlined a lot of it on our in our discussion so far, Jason, in that uh you know, parts of it are this sort of this this retail model, right? Of of it's not just about the charging experience. It's uh it's about what I do when I'm there for 20, 30, 40 minutes or whatever for you know for just talking about fast charging. And and so then it becomes uh those who are gonna win and be really successful know how to get people out of their car and inside the the store, the convenience store, the the Walmart, the targets, whatever it is. And you know, you had John Eichenberger on from Travel Institute and and Knaxx and stuff like that. And uh, you know, that industry still hasn't figured it out. They're all working on it, they've been working on it for years. Uh, but but but that's sort of really the next thing is tiling tying those loyalty and rewards programs. Because right now, you know, if if you know, if you go charge it uh, you know, a Costco or whatever it is, right? It's it's like powered by Electrify America, even though it's the Costco network, you don't get the Electrify America free charging, right? But, you know, you probably use your Electify America app or whatever. It's just like it's kind of a mess, right? But but the reality is, is whatever, you know, charge point management software system use and network and stuff like that, it's in a separate sort of data platform and stuff like that. And it's not connected to the point of sales system and the loyalty and rewards program system inside the store, right? Like you know this, you're an expert in in sort of the fueling industry, right? Like when you when you pull into a gas station and you know and swipe your cart and everything, or no, actually, when you don't swipe your cart, but you you know, you put the gas in and then you go inside the store because you want to get, you know, a a six pack of of Pepsi and and uh you know and uh and a donut or whatever it is, right? You go up, you know, they say, what pump did you fill at uh pump six, right? It sees your transaction, and then if you're like in in their oil reward program, like what's your what's Your mobile number, right? And then you add in your six pack of Pepsi and donut, and you get your, you know, I see that you have a certain number of points. You get a dollar off today, or right, or we'll we'll discount your charging or whatever. Like solving that problem and creating it, that's that's going to be part of charging 3.0 is connecting the data on the customer and and connecting their charging behavior and their you know purchase behavior inside the store and stuff. So that that or inside the restaurant, right? Maybe you're stopping off at a subway or something like that, and you're a member of their pro like whatever it is, like connecting connecting the charging data and who you are as a customer with with your your relationship with the the site host, the retailer, et cetera. So I think that's that's that's one part of it. I think another part of it is what I've talked about with um like the the airline industry, right? Where they're gonna be much more sophisticated on figuring out who who their customers are that they wanna serve and attract and retain, right? Like uh uh I'll I'll come back to Delta again as an example. You know, Delta has been the most profitable. I mean, it used to be Southwest, right? But Delta has become, you know, award-winning, uh, you know, profitable. I think maybe they had a loss because of like jet fuel prices last quarter or whatever it was, right? But what do they do? They started upgrading their their their planes, right? Uh and in the uh you know, more first class seats, all this kind of stuff, because they're going after the business traveler, right? They're basically saying, yeah, we we want the holiday traveler, but that's not what makes this company tick and and be you know the the best we think, right, in the industry and the most and and so profitable, right? Because we've we've identified a customer segment that is gonna drive the customer. And I think uh I think we're gonna see over time sort of a similar evolution in sort of this, you know, charging 3.0 is that, you know, we're gonna probably see some players that are more in the the old Southwest and and you know, maybe the uh, you know, may they rest in peace spirit, you know, and Frontier, like sort of the low that they're gonna target people that I just wanna roll in, sit in my car and play video games and machine and have the fastest, lowest price charging, right? I don't need a canopy, I don't need sushi, right, you know, yeah. And and so I think there's there's gonna be sort of this this mix because it comes you've used the word several times on on this podcast today, Jason, of differentiation. And and right now, nobody, you know, not very many people in this industry are focused on that. It's been a build it and they will come, right? And so, you know, the third, third, maybe the third piece of charging 3.0 is is figuring out uh and designing your company and your processes and your ecosystem around who you're gonna serve and serve better than any anybody else, right? And for some people it it it's gonna be price, right? There's always every industry has people that say we're gonna win on price, right? Others are gonna win on on service, others are gonna win on amenities. Some might win on, you know, we have you know megawatt chargers, right? We're we're gonna win on, you know, you're in and out in five minutes, you know, once cars catch up can actually charge it, anything close to that, right? So I think over time of a foundational aspect, and we're already seeing like you look at like a revel, right? New York based, you know, and even BP Pulse to an extent, right? They're very focused on, you know, locate airport, look like rideshare things. That's what you know, Revel's focuses on rideshare and and and fleet drivers and stuff. So I think that's that's sort of, you know, maybe one of the other pieces of this is you know, there's gonna be that uh I know where I'm gonna stop and charge because they know me. They've designed their business to serve me, whatever segment I I am, right? So I know that was a lot, but I think that those are those are some of the the aspects of of it.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yeah. And if you if you'll let me add a fourth example to what could be what charging 3.0 could look like is related to a thought around what happens in a traditional fueling environment where and again, this don't really apply to a Bucky's or to a larger operator who has multiple you know fueling points, but this is this is the person that pulls up and they're fueling at the gas, at the gas pump, and then they needed a receipt for whatever reason, and the receipt didn't print out. So then they go inside the store. There is someone to help them. And and a human being? A human being, yeah. Well, this is where I'm going with this is as it relates to charge mape. Uh and we'll talk about who they are.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

I thought that's what you were going, because that's what I was thinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Yeah. I mean, all these unattended sites don't have help. And so sometimes, you know, uh an EV driver pulls up to a site, they can't use the charger for whatever reason. Maybe, maybe there's not an option for them distance-wise, just go somewhere else. And so you know, we've had we've had Brad Chris from ChargeMate on field frequency, and you recently became a business advisor and investor in ChargeMate. And ChargeMate is a AI-powered chat and voice support platform for EV drivers. If you pull up and you know, there's there's something wrong with the transaction. There's something wrong that's happening in that moment. They're the human. They're the human. Yeah. And so, you know, we've had Brad on, but I but I'd I'd like to hear your comments because I feel like that's an example of of the CPOs that leverage a solution like ChargeMate. I feel like that that's a that's a differentiation because there's they've they've got a resource for help, especially for a new EV driver that doesn't understand adapters and you know, hey, I plugged in and I was getting a lot of energy. Now I'm not, something's wrong. No, nothing's wrong. You know, that type of thing. So, you know, what what are some what what was some compelling, you know, things that drove drew you to to become an investor and an advisor to charge mate?

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Uh uh a lot of it is everything you just just talked about, right? And the the fact that, you know, unlike the gas station convenience storm, well, there is no human there. Like people are stuck. It's like you're on an island and there's there's nobody to help you. And you know, even for experienced EV drivers like me and you, you know, we we still run into problems. I mean, the first time we took our Audi to an electrify America, I had all sorts of problems. They turned to be, turned out to be like I was the problem. Then my my wife and I both set up with separate logins and passwords on the Audi my uh my Audi app, and apparently that like canceled plug-in charge, right? You can't have two two accounts on the same car or something like that. But you know, the dealer, but you know, but it's like you know, so I ended up eventually after going to three different chargers and everything, I just whipped out my credit card and did tap and pay and it worked, right? But my point is that charging is complicated and not just for newbies, but like for everybody, and especially if maybe you're going to a new CPO or something like that. Like there's just there's always things can go wrong. And, you know, as we've we've talked at at length on this call, right? It's like so much of it is about creating a great customer experience. And one of the things that that Brad talks about, which just totally resonated with me, is is sort of like the the hidden failures, right? Like, as you know, there's all this data with the charge point management system, and there's, you know, the hardware and the software, and there's all this data around what's what what was the the reason for a failure and stuff. But you know, a big part of what ChargeMate is solving is is stuff that doesn't show up in that data, right? It's like I pulled up and you know, screen was cracked, or uh, you know, my uh connector, uh my adapter, like one of the things we're seeing a lot of is just like the people's the connector gets stuck in the car and they're like, I can't get it out, right? Like that's like five to ten percent of the problems that we're seeing, right? A lot of app problems, right? Like the the app doesn't work, whatever it is, like there's just all these sort of things that that uh never allow the EV driver to get to a s a charge, a successful charge, right? And and so a lot of it is like recovering lost revenue and and turning those drivers into lifetime loyal customers, right? Like you know this, it's like is is and it's just it's I was talking to somebody last night over a couple of beers about this, is is there's this interesting human phenomenon, like well, we'll go somewhere and we'll have a bad experience. But if if the business solves it and turns you around, you're like, I started off really happy, I hated this place, but oh my god, they came in and solved it, and maybe they even you know gave me, you know, free dessert or whatever it is, right? Like they and then you're like, I'm hooked, I'm in for life. Like these guys, this this company, like these guys, these, these, the, you know, this this organization like saved me. They threw a life raft and pulled me in, and now I'm like, I'm I'm with you guys, right? And that's a key of what what ChargeMate does, right? Is they they they take these people who are like on the ledge, right? Like, I'm out here in the middle of nowhere and I can't charge, my, you know, the app doesn't work, my cable's stuck. Yeah, you know, I can't read the screen, like my my credit card's not not working, like whatever it is. And via chat or or voice, right, they can solve like 90 plus percent of of those those problems. And so um, you know, I was I was attracted to that opportunity that they're they're honing in on a significant piece that's between, you know, the CPO and and the the charging network and the software and the driver and and the the vehicle, right? And and bringing the bring this all together and creating uh a successful charging session. But what really got me excited, Jason, was uh that that that's just a starting point, right? Like once once you're in there and have this communication channel. So one of the things Brad and I talk a lot about is like the voice of the customer. So, you know, to your point, unlike a gas set, there's nobody to talk to, right? And now here you have you have somebody that will listen to you, somebody you can talk to. One of the things we're seeing, which is really, really fascinating, right, is people will actually chat or call charge mate and say, you know, the the bathroom's out of toilet paper, the trash cans are overflowing, there's no water in the squeegee, you know, window. Like the screens cracked. There were a lot of people icing the charging station, right? Like nobody would pick up the phone or you know, press the call center button and wait five minutes for the call center rep to ask, answer, to tell them that, you know, the there's the trash can is overflowing. But they will do it with like this AI vehicle. And it's a it's again, it's another sort of fascinating human behavior thing. But you know, where this starts to go is something you talked about earlier, is now, you know, longer term, we can turn that into you know, not just reactive communication, but proactive. Like Jason, we're seeing that you know, your uh charging session is authenticated and charging. You know, if you're thirsty, you know, uh as a as a loyal uh you know charge point operator X, brand X, you know, we're offering a dollar off coffee, you know, if you go inside the store, like you know, there's there's opportunity to sort of start to be proactive and connect the dots.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

And and so really just and there's a lot of other like marketing and revenue and loyalty things that we're we're talking about once you're in the middle there between like the customer and these other operators have started being that that that sort of glue and and communicate with the customer. And then the the last thing is just that we can take this concept to to other industries and verticals and other assets and stuff like that. So, you know, as you know, uh a startup has to focus on one thing first and and nail that, right? And so that's what what ChargeMade and you know I'm helping them with is let let's let's nail this first sort of you know charge point operator solution and stuff, and then we can expand further within them and then beyond them. So it's uh it's really exciting. And at the end of the day, it's AI. Who it who who wouldn't be, you know, somebody at my age wouldn't want to be involved in AI.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Right. Right. Well, you know, your your comments around the voice of the customer and the importance of that, you know, to the to the earlier example that you made where there's a problem and you as a customer have one foot out the door, but then they they hear you and they respond and then they retain you. I I I I just I so many examples come to my mind when I think about that, but I think uh you know charging 3.0 is is taking solutions like ChargeMate and and creating that experience because you're ingesting that that voice of the customer that does report, that will report on the the trash cans overflowing and the you know all of that, whereas they're not gonna call support to to report that because support can't do anything and won't do anything with it. They're there to support the charger, not necessarily that, but but that's another layer of of of differentiation that solutions like ChargeMate offer and then can bring to market for the CPOs. I I think you know, I think of businesses or places just I've got it, I don't want to say the logo in mind, they're they're private business, but I I go there because I know the wings are gonna be great. But when I go in there, I'm going there with the understanding that the service is gonna suck. That the that the service that the staff doesn't care. They don't care if you're there or not, they've got plenty of legacy business, they've been around for years, family-owned business, they don't care. It's it's not quite like Dick's last resort.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

They're the wing Nazi, not the soup Nazi, right? Like, yeah, they they they they treat you poorly, but you go there for the for the wings.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Right, right, exactly. And then on the other side of that that example are are the businesses where I go to where maybe the food is is okay or the service, uh everything's okay, but the experience, they know how to delight the customer, and so they retain the customer.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

You're over you're overlooking like the you know, the beach or the water or or you know, or whatever it is, right? There's something else going on that's why you go there.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Yeah. Yeah. And I I feel like those examples are all about you know where the CPO has got to find. You know, you made the example of of the guy that pulls up and he's just gonna play on his phone and he doesn't care about the canopy, he just cares about the price per kilowatt, and then he's on down the road. Yeah. And and so you know, that just it I think when we zoom out and we look at it at the industry as a macro level, that just speaks of all the the diversity and and space for opportunity for for different brands. But I again I think the brands have to def differentiate themselves, they have to have something, a compelling message, a compelling solution, a compelling product, a compelling experience to to attract and then retain the customer. But then there are others that can just operate in that space because they have good wings. So you just put up with everything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, well, Lauren, this has been a great conversation. How did we get past the 60-minute mark already? This just flew by so quickly.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Yeah, yeah, no, but it was it it was great. And uh, as we knew, we'd we we only got to like one eighth of the the questions that we had come up with in advance and stuff. But yeah, but I but I loved how we just sort of rolled and pivoted with it and and brought up press releases of came out an hour ago, all sorts of things and stuff. But but yeah, I mean I I think what what was great, Jason, is is just that you know, we we focused a lot on this sort of the this next phase is is it's all about the driver and the customer and and that customer experience and and marketing and and service and how you attract and retain them and and you know we're gonna see a variety of different models, as you know, you just said and we just discussed and stuff. But right now, I think this industry is with a few exceptions, is still in the, you know, build it and they will come and and we hope they show up. And you know, that's what's really driving me right now is I've been looking at the data and they're not showing up at a lot of these places, right? And so that that's sort of this next phase is is how do we sort of shape the industry to to realize that uh, you know, before you can ever get to charging 3.0, you gotta get to charging 2.0, right? You've you've got to focus on not just just putting the the charges in the ground, but you know, how do you get people there and serve them well? Yeah, and then get them to come back. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Yeah. Well, we will uh we will include links to your LinkedIn, to charge genomics and everything we discussed in the in the show notes. For those listening, if you found this conversation valuable, please follow the Field Frequency uh podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening. Lauren, thank you for coming on Field Frequency. It was a pleasure to have you. Look forward to your return or your return visit and uh for you to come back and share some more perspectives. But thanks for watching. Yeah, great. Thanks so much for having me, Jason. This episode was produced and edited by the team at Autozi. To find out more, visit autosy.co a u t o z y dot co.