Don't Even Bother

#12: Maybe You're Not Crazy... Maybe It's Gaslighting — with Mike

• Katiuscia + Megan • Episode 12

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0:00 | 1:39:25

**disclaimer... no, you're not drunk listening to this. Please forgive our massive tech difficulties today. Tech was not our friend.

Are you overthinking… or being gaslit?

In this episode, we break down the reality of gaslighting—what it is, how it shows up, and why it makes you question yourself. From relationships to everyday interactions, we explore how manipulation can feel subtle, confusing, and deeply personal.

We also talk about rebuilding trust in your own instincts and recognizing when something isn’t right.

If you’ve ever felt like you’re the problem… this conversation might shift everything.

00:00  Intro: Am I Crazy or Is This Real?
 02:10  Meet Mike + Setting the Stage
 06:30 What Gaslighting Actually Is
 14:00  Real-Life Examples
 24:00  Why It’s Hard to Recognize
 35:00  Relationships & Dating Dynamics
 50:00  Friends, Family & Everyday Situations
 1:03:00  Workplace & Power Dynamics
 1:13:00  Self-Doubt & Losing Trust in Yourself
 1:22:00 Intuition vs Overthinking
 1:30:00  How to Respond & Set Boundaries
 1:35:30  Rebuilding Confidence
 1:38:30  Final Thoughts

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speaker:

don't even bother.

Megan:

Oh, hey,

Katiuscia:

hey. Super excited today'cause we have a guest. This is Mike World. Mike, me World. Hey, I'm gonna tell you how Mike and I met because I've known Mike for a couple years and we were at a conference together in Sun Valley, didn't know each other. And it was one of the late nights and we were all at the bar at the downstairs of the lodge. And my friends were like, go to the bar, push your way to the bar 'cause you're a female, you'll get there sooner. And I'm pushing my way to the bar and this m effer pushes in front of me. Are you referring

Mike:

to me?

Katiuscia:

I'm referring to you.

Mike:

Okay.

Katiuscia:

This one pushes in front of me. I'm just, and then we ended up sitting at the same table and then that's it. We, he's amazing. So,

Mike:

okay, so in all fairness, I get to tell my side of the story.

Katiuscia:

Sure.

Mike:

So I'm standing there in line and this, you know, dark, dreamy woman comes up.

Katiuscia:

Is that me

Mike:

and I'm, I look over and I think

Megan:

this m effer,

Mike:

this m effer. Is gonna try to cut in front of me. And I thought, you know, she's attractive and she's gonna be a bitch. So I think we did, we start talking at that point,

Katiuscia:

ended up sitting at the same table,

Mike:

right.

Katiuscia:

With other people that we all had in common.

Mike:

And it's funny because I think you just, when you meet people, first impressions obviously are huge, right? And we all do it. We all unfairly judge people based on their appearance and their look. And as I started talking to you, I thought, she's legit and she's a little magic, crazy. Um, but had I gone with that initial impression, we probably wouldn't have become friends. It was funny because then I think it was the election night where you were hosting something and I saw it and like, holy crap, she's really cool. And we were going back and forth throughout the elections. Yeah. And it was hysterical. And we've been friends ever since. Yeah. So

Katiuscia:

it's been been a while. So grateful to know you. Thank you for being here today.

Mike:

I'm honored. I'm honored. I love your podcast. You said it in one of your original podcasts, how you're just two girls sitting. At a coffee shop and when you listen to your podcast, it's absolutely that you guys are fricking hysterical. So like, and subscribe. Absolutely.'cause they are legit fun and they hit on some really cool topics. And in that spirit,

Megan:

oh,

Mike:

Starbucks gift cards. Oh my. So

Katiuscia:

thank you. Thank you.

Mike:

Just a little thank you to say thanks for letting me,

Katiuscia:

this is, thank you. This is our love language.

Mike:

I know.

Katiuscia:

Is, thank you so much. Oh my God, I'm so excited.

Mike:

Oh my gosh. Are you gonna go into the whole love language thing? That's a whole different topic. I

Katiuscia:

think we need to talk about that on a whole other day.

Mike:

Yes.

Katiuscia:

Because you and I have touched on that. You and I have touched on that. Mm-hmm. So that'll be a different day. But please tell everyone, get into what we're talking about today.'cause I'm fascinated and so excited.

Mike:

Okay. So. Everybody's favorite topic and it seems like it has grown so much over the last couple years and it's gaslighting and it, it's amazing because it's part of everything that is around us. You, you can't escape gaslighting. And so it's interesting because first of all, I, I think most people misuse the turf. Absolutely

Megan:

they do.

Mike:

It's like a blanket for everything that's wrong with somebody else or society. They always refer to it as gaslight.

Megan:

I think people interchange it with lying and it's not quite the same.

Mike:

Right. And so I was so interested in it that I started doing some research on it and I thought, okay, like when did gas lighting become such a thing? And it's funny, there's a 1934 play. It's a British play and it's called Gaslight. And it's about this couple and this guy, he marries this woman and they have this great relationship. And then over the course of the marriage. The guy starts to do things to make his wife feel like she's insane. Hmm. She's crazy.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And you, you gotta remember, in 1934, houses were lit with gas lighting. And so he would lower the lights in the house to make her think. She was

Megan:

like, her vision was going bad.

Mike:

Absolutely. And he would do different things. He would move paintings around in the house and make her feel like she was going crazy. So that was the o origination of the official term Gaslight.

Katiuscia:

Ooh. The more you know. I didn't know that. Right. That's fascinating.

Mike:

Well, so then you fast forward, and of course gas lighting's been going on for decades, probably even before that, and we'll talk later on about the whole biblical implications of gaslighting and disclaimer, I am no Bible theologian. It's amazing because it, when you think about, okay, 1934, gaslighting officially termed, I think it's in 2010, I had to write it down. 2010, Webster's Dictionary came out with gaslighting as a psychological manipulation. So, okay, now it's officially defined in some kind of reference material. American Dialect Society 2006 says gaslighting is the most useful word. Okay.

Megan:

I'd say the F-bomb is the most useful word, but, well, anyway,

Mike:

I would agree with that one. I don't know why people get so tripped up about that word. And you and I have had con so many conversations about certain words that we will not talk about on this podcast, but that people get so tripped up about. And you know, words do matter.

Katiuscia:

Context matters more.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Katiuscia:

And I think if we have learned anything, especially recently in the past, what couple months-ish, but the whole Charlie Kirk thing, and you can take someone's words that are totally benign and spin them outta context and then you vilify it. And if you only took a moment to not be so dense and a sheep that you just listened to what you're told and you did a little research that's, we've talked about this before. Nobody wants to do the research. Nobody wants to delve in and be like, what exactly was meant by this or that? And they just blanket name everybody and it's just ridiculous. Anyway.

Megan:

Well, and words have meaning. I have a friend who's a lawyer and we talk about that all the time because that's why they use specific words when writing laws or trying cases. Yeah. And that's where. To circle back. Gaslighting is overused.

Mike:

Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to a podcast when you talk about words having different meanings, and there's a couple politicians that use certain phrases over and over and over again, and when you do, there's several experts that have done the research on it and they've found that those phrases. Have ties to the Communist manifesto.

Megan:

Oh, of course

Mike:

they do. And Marxist language. And it's interesting in the context of gaslighting, they're using these terms and trying to make you think something else. And it's the definition of gaslight. And most people aren't aware of it because they don't do the research and they don't spend the time to really understand the meaning that happens every day. If you really pay attention to the words that, and it, and right now obviously there's a lot of political turmoil, but if you pay attention to their words, they have so much.

Katiuscia:

Oh yeah.

Mike:

And it's intentional.

Katiuscia:

Yeah.

Megan:

It's all been focus grouped.

Katiuscia:

It's why you can flip between certain mainstream media stations and here are the same tagline go over because it's the more you hear, and this goes back to when we talked about Mandela effect. Mm-hmm. When you think of the fact that the majority of the demographic isn't gonna be doing the research and thinking for themselves, and you realize they've, they've really nailed it because you can have a legitimate conversation or interaction, I'm sorry, not a conversation. You can have a legitimate interaction with someone. Say something and they will just word vomit all the stuff they heard. And then that's how you can tell a smart person from someone who's not, because they're not thinking for themselves. Mm-hmm. Those

Mike:

talking points, can you talk about one of those phrases? Yeah. That's everywhere. Threat to democracy.

Megan:

Oh yeah.

Mike:

And it is pervasive in obviously Main Street Media, but to your point, it's also pervasive in certain political beliefs. And people parrot that phrase without understanding the true meaning. And tying it back again to gaslighting. They're trying to make you think that there's an actual threat and that you're insane for believing otherwise. And it's brutal, absolutely brutal.

Katiuscia:

But you look at the effects of these things, of these phrases, of these things that are, I wouldn't even say they're drip campaigned in. This is like a hard, they're in your face every day.

Megan:

There's a fire hose. Now.

Katiuscia:

It is a fire hose. But I love that on this topic of you taking something that you, number one, haven't researched so you don't understand. Let's take it back to the No Kings rallies. Hello. We haven't had a king since.

Megan:

If we had a king, you wouldn't be allowed to protest.

Katiuscia:

Yeah.

Megan:

I didn't pay a lot of attention to it, but anybody that you saw being interviewed, well, why are you protesting? What are you here to say? And none of 'em give a good, solid answer.

Mike:

Some of what they would would say was just repeats.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Of what mainstream media said. Right. Threat to democracy.

Megan:

You

Mike:

know, the, the catchy phrases that are in right now.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

But they had no substance.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

And when you, the interviewers tried to dive into it, it was all based

Megan:

Oh, for sure.

Mike:

Yeah. That was a total circus. And then there it's, it's funny because Main Street Media jumps in and they start showing all these pictures of all these different rallies. There was one in Chicago where they showed biggest turnout ever. I think it was in Boston. Is that the one where it was Boston Marathon.

Megan:

A video from 2017. Yeah. Nice.

Mike:

Whether it's words or visually mm-hmm. They're trying to use these cues to get people to think something else.

Megan:

Well, and because nobody's gonna look at that and say, surely that's not this protest. And that's been a journalism trick for. Eternity, probably lotion is that you can, or same in the courtroom, you can say it even if it's not true. And you can print that retraction on page 12, three weeks from now in size four font, nobody will see it. Or you say it in the courtroom and the jury still hears it, even if you have to retract it.

Mike:

Well, and I think social media, I think it has a lot of positive elements to it, but I think it has been like everything else and, and this will tie into our discussions from a biblical sense, right, about evil, because again, I'm not an expert on religion, but if you think back about. Man's creation. God did not create evil,

Megan:

right?

Mike:

But once there was man, he decided to choose good or evil. And it was the temptation side of things. People have used social media as a platform to manipulate the public. And the problem is, is that we are in a, there should be a new generation. It's the soundbite generation where people want things in 32nd lips. And it's funny, remember when Instagram first came out and you could only record for, I think, was it 30 seconds or 15 seconds,

Katiuscia:

something like that, real short.

Mike:

And then they expanded it. People have such a short attention span and they don't. You brought this up on one of your podcasts about doing the research. They take that as the gospel and they run with it

Katiuscia:

because it's easy, right? Because it's easy to not have to do the work to delve in. Anytime I would ever post any stats of things that were going on in the, with the government or whatever, with the border and the crossings, I would always read and research and go to the homeland or customs and border patrol sites. I'd go to all the sites and have the legitimate data because if I just flipped on the news who are commentators, and we've talked about this, you're not getting accurate data. You're always getting. Opinion. It's always a different spin on things, so put it out there. I always feel confident with anything that I've actually put out because I've done the research, but we're also in a societal climate, I'd say, of laziness. And it's because everything is spoonfed to you. Why would I do the research when I can go to four different stations and probably hear the same thing? Right? But therefore it

Megan:

must be true,

Katiuscia:

therefore it's true.

Mike:

Well, and the problem is it's confirmation analysis, right? Where you look for sources to support the conclusions that you already came to, and. Most people, and I'm guilty of it as well. I watch Fox Business News. I don't listen to regular Main Street media because it is so jaded and I always think I should hear the other side. But the other side is just so blatantly biased that you don't have another source. And I, I know there's a lot of podcasters that have come out and said they try to represent an unbiased view on things, but most of them are biased. I think they, they play on the fact that they're gonna fatigue people and they're lazy. So they don't do the research or they don't look it up. I know when I've looked and seen things on social media that I thought, there's no way I'll go online and try to do some research and stuff. And it's funny if you use AI and you look at, ask a question like, how many, how many people did Barack Obama deport? And it'll list it. And you can read through that. A bias towards

Megan:

Oh yeah.

Mike:

He deported 6 million people. However, half of them were this or half of them were because of that. And you just go, okay, I love, and I love AI and I love like chat GPT for that reason. But you also have to counter it with, okay, is that legit? Because not everything on the internet is factual.

Katiuscia:

Right.

Mike:

Okay. So we went on a little bit of a bird walk.

Katiuscia:

Bird walk.

Mike:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

Isn't good. We're, we're stealing that now,

Mike:

like a pigeon parade. And so I wanna kind of tie it back to the timeline. So we talked about Webster's 2010, we talked about American dialect. 2016, the American Psychology Association in 2021, identified gaslighting as manipulation to, that is so extreme that it would induce mental illness. So 2021, as I was reading through that, I kept thinking, okay, what's going on in society politically, socially, around all this time? And you, you can draw your own conclusions on the movement. Right, the gaslighting movement. And when it started, it goes into the whole cancel culture and feeling wrong about having a certain view on things and then being told that you're a racist because you think of it a certain way, or you know you're a baby killer because you have a different religious view. And I think overwhelmingly, people finally just said, we're done. So historically that's kind of been the birth and adolescent phase, and now we're into the full adult phase of gaslighting, and hopefully we're at a pivotal point where the pendulum starts to swing back.

Katiuscia:

You hope so, right? We have a lot of hope for things, but when you have that many people that have been poisoned for so long and just believe what they're told, whether it's in certain narratives or certain things like politics. They've been told for so long a certain way. Then you eventually, what is that? It's three weeks to form a habit. It's probably also, I'd say if you're being told the same thing over and over, you're gonna start believing that maybe there's something a little wrong with you too, hence Mandela Effect. Mm-hmm. But that's not how we remembered it. And now it's, I guess that's, I guess that's how it is. You can kind of just give it up. It's a weird world for sure, but it's such a fascinating concept to me, because then you also have people who don't know they're doing it to you.

Mike:

Well, I think that's a great lead into why do people guess?

Katiuscia:

Control.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Katiuscia:

Okay.

Mike:

Manipulation.

Katiuscia:

A sense of superiority. You know what I mean? What would the the, I'm better than you and you're below me and therefore I'm not gonna let you forget that kind of deal. Right.

Mike:

Yeah. For some reason people have gotten so used to trying to tear down other people and it's okay. This is coming from a guy's perspective.

Katiuscia:

We like those.

Mike:

Yeah, I like those too. But I like women's opinions too, but. It's amazing when you see women tearing down other powerful women. So you think about the Megan Kelly's or people that are, and I'm not talking about the whole celebrity thing because that's just way outta control. It's a delusionary belief on the whole persona of success. But when you see women tearing down other powerful, intelligent pretty women, you and I have had conversations on the hall of Sydnee Sweeney, right. And it was just amazing to see people tear down this woman and make people think that they were wrong because they had a certain viewpoint. And people, this is a fucking gene ad. Yeah. Lighten up.

Katiuscia:

No, but it's, it's not, and she's

Megan:

gorgeous,

Mike:

right?

Megan:

Who gets upset about that?

Katiuscia:

Everyone who promotes that it's okay to not take care of yourself and you can let go of your health and you still, it's the, remember the body positivity? Oh, era. When that started, we're still in it a little bit. I'd say it's going away. I'm not talking about body positivity like us. I'm talking about body positivity where you are 1000% obviously unhealthy. Okay. Close to a bunch of health problems. If not, you already have them. And they would put very, very obese women on sports illustrator, swimsuit stuff, and they would promote this. Victoria's Secret did it. A lot of people did it for the sake of body positivity and body positivity would be including some nutritional guidance in the world and making sure that we all have the tools because then you've got the other side of big food, big pharma, all of the bigs that wanna keep you sick because it's more lucrative to be sick. Remember, we're in sick, sick care, not health fair. Mm-hmm. So that's a whole other day. But things like that where they included everyone and so now you have this weird societal expectation of the body positivity and no, this is okay. And I just saw something online. I think I might have sent it to you guys. It was what level of that. You or something. And if you're this size, then you're a level one. And if you're this size, no. You need to take care of your body. You only get one. This is what this is. Body is my temple. Take care of your body. This is the one thing that rides you through the rest of your life. And you can't just depend on medication and assume that you know everything's gonna fix you.'cause obviously your food isn't.

Megan:

Well, I think the body positivity on paper. Great idea. I don't look like Sydnee Sweeney and I don't look like you, but that doesn't mean that that's bad.

Katiuscia:

No, it's totally fine. But at the end of the day, he's Right. It was a jeans ad.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

But you see a blonde should blue eyes.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

With blue eyes. Mm-hmm. Say my jeans, and everyone's like,

Megan:

yeah,

Katiuscia:

get a fucking grip.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

And who is it that was complaining? Did you see all the people being interviewed that clearly didn't look like her?

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

And they were very unhealthy. So you have this. It's almost, you're shaming the people who are healthy and attractive, and you wanna celebrate everyone who's destroying their body in many ways. Not just by weight, but by whatever it is that they're putting in or taking in, or whatever it is. And they love it because it's, I don't know, edgy. It's stupid,

Megan:

is what it is. It's kind of addicting to be a victim.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Megan:

And so I think that that's all of those people are in that spiral of, I will never be as pretty as Sydnee Sweeney. Therefore, fuck her. I hate her. She's a Nazi. And

Katiuscia:

they create,

Megan:

I'm gonna shame her because they wanna feel that little dopamine hit of being a victim.

Katiuscia:

And they're also creating their own marginalized community

Megan:

because it's a lot harder to eat healthy food, take care of yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those things. It's a lot harder, just like it's hard to do the research. It's hard to do those things. So it's a lot easier to just point the finger at somebody else. Yeah. And be a victim.

Mike:

It, it has become ill like with two Ls logic where it is, it has gotten to a such a point where you shame people for being different from you.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And the irony in it is that they're the same people that are asking you to accept them as they are, but they don't accept you for who you are. A logical person steps back and goes, you're fucking crazy. And you, you've lost the ability to logically correlate A is not B. And it's been exacerbated by media and politicians and this belief that it's okay to shame people. I just don't get where, how that got to where it's at now. And hopefully it gets to a point where it starts to get reeled back in and it feels like it is.

Katiuscia:

There are certain moments and I think. The way you feel like it is, is social media has drastically changed the past nine, 10 months, 12, even during election cycle, social media has vastly changed where you see people being a little more like we were before, before everyone got offended it everything. And it also got to that point when we talked about politics. Nobody gives a shit anymore. I'm not gonna be quiet for something that I believe for fear that it offends you. I'm not saying anything to purposely offend you personally. If I do, I always take ownership, but I, it's rare that I would do that. I think that everyone is just over it generally. Everyone who's been silenced and who's been made to feel they were silenced from COVID and your stance on COVID and vaccinations and wearing the mask, et cetera, all of those things, we all shut up and took it for so long that now you have people who are. Yeah, we're gonna celebrate our health and we're gonna say what we believe because I have the same rights in this country. As you, as you, and as the people who believe differently. The people who say they accept everybody and then chastise and put labels on us without even knowing us. That is wild to me. But that's the reality of what we were in, and now what we're crawling out of. It's a revolution almost of just tiredness, of being silenced for so long. It's exhausting.

Megan:

Well, and I think that people fought so hard for equal rights for different groups of people, that once those groups did get equal rights, they were addicted to that fight and that feeling and that victimhood, and so you have to create ways that you're still unequal.

Mike:

It's interesting because controversy sells.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

I think you're right because there's this big fight for equality, whatever equality meant, and bottom brass tacks, life's not there.

Megan:

No such thing.

Mike:

Life's not equal.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Get over it. Figure it out. And it's the repressors and the oppressors that have just taken this as an opportunity to exploit people and they fall into it.

Megan:

Yep.

Mike:

The discussions around you were talking about Sidney Sweeney and the whole Nazi thing. Right? I mean, Elon Musk, same thing, where it's almost like success is frowned upon and you step back and you think in what normal world is success about that

Megan:

communism.

Mike:

Like if it's Absolutely, and of course there's all kinds of political debate going on about, what do they call it? Democratic socialists.

Megan:

Yeah. Which is like putting glitter on a piece of poo.

Mike:

I know. But they've wrapped this pretty package up. Are selling it to people who are too lazy to do some research to find out communism has failed every time it's ever tried to exist. I went to Cuba 10 years ago

Katiuscia:

and it was such a

Mike:

beautiful country, but it was completely blighted everywhere and depending on how much people know about what really happened in Cuba, the communist basically took over, Castro, took over and took this vibrant, beautiful city and put it under government control. And it's never recovered. I mean, it's still pretty, but it's rundown. And it was interesting. They have all you, you've seen all the old. Cars and the convertible bellaires and stuff. And so we rented one of those for the day and we had this guy drive us around and we said, take us to all the places that the locals go. And so he took us to all these really cool hole in the wall places to eat and bars and stuff. It was comical.'cause I asked, where can I get a Cuban sandwich? And he looked at me like, that's an American, there's no such thing as a Cuban sandwich. But we were talking to him and he was saying that he would never leave Cuba. His family left and went to Florida and they keep asking him to come and he's like, I have everything I need here. My healthcare's paid for, my education's paid for, and I make a good living, so I'm fine. And so for him it worked. But for an economy, for a country, it doesn't work. And it's been proven to fail. But you have these people out there that, and you know, you go back to Obama and they're able to present this in such a positive way. Momani, same thing. And they present this in such a way that they make people believe. Again, going back to the gaslighting comments that you're crazy if you don't believe in this.'cause it's a good thing.

Katiuscia:

Utopia doesn't exist. I think everyone who gets attracted to things like that, especially these younger people in New York, let's say, when you have Chip being thrown as an offer, that it's gonna be free. They don't take the time to find out where has this successfully worked? Because I can tell you, even in Italy, it's socialist and you have healthcare if you're a citizen and you live there. But most of the people I know still have private doctors to go get their labs to go see a doctor. They're not gonna wait in the process, in the whole system of it,

Megan:

wait for two years just to get your ear, ear infection treated

Katiuscia:

because it doesn't make sense and it's not. Reasonable in just the overall landscape of what it's supposed to do. It's a lie. Utopia doesn't exist. I'm sorry, but if I'm busting my ass at work and you're not, I don't wanna pay for you. It's the same way when Biden was floating around paying for student loan debt, and I'm kind of like, Hey, everyone. I went to college and I incurred debt and I paid that off for years and I was smart and I budgeted and I made it and I'm done. But for all these other people, well, I want my student loans paid off too. I'm sure you do. That's great. Go get a job. The government shouldn't be doing that. Shouldn't be handing out anything like that. Kind of like the government shouldn't be. We as the taxpayers, shouldn't be paying through the government to feed your kids. There's many things that communism would probably say is great, a socialist society, you're gonna have these allocations. But what about the people who are working hard? I'm working hard to pay for everybody else. I'm sorry. Pass.

Mike:

So why do they do that? Why do you think they do that? Why do you think they offer these rosy pictures of utopia or free college? What's the underlying principle behind

Katiuscia:

it? Well, it's laziness for, you're basically, you're nurturing and enabling that laziness that people have already had to go through. But it's dependence on someone.

Mike:

That's the key. It's their dependence, it's the control,

Katiuscia:

yeah.

Mike:

Side of things. And if they can control population, it's, you know, I think it's a big part in why we saw such high levels of immigration.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Because if you get a society that's dependent on government, you can control everything.

Megan:

Didn't Lyndon Johnson make a quote about that? About get the minorities to be voting for me and they'll vote for me for the next six generations.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

And that's why they don't like the Cubans.'cause most of the Cubans are pretty conservative 'cause they know what they have here.

Mike:

Well, and I'm convinced that the, the Charlie Kirk assassination was a fear of them losing control mm-hmm. Of the youth.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

And it was, it wasn't what he said. It was the movement he was creating because they were losing that demographic and they wanted to neutralize it. But if you can control it and gaslight people to think that they're insane or wrong, after a while you start to think, oh, well maybe I should view this differently. And we saw that happen over the last decade where, you know, the things that you were brought up to believe in, you start questioning.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

I did it, you know, when I, it was funny when I had the kids and they were growing up, I started questioning some of the beliefs that I was raised on. Like, you can't discipline that. And I was like, fuck that.

Katiuscia:

Yeah,

Mike:

sorry. You know? And my dad only spanked me one time and I knew that I didn't wanna have that happening. And it wasn't like he got a belt or a stick or anything, but I knew that if I misbehave, there was consequences. And I started thinking about that when the kids were born. Okay, do I wanna be that way? Last thing I need is somebody on a phone when I'm trying to guide my kids and all of a sudden I'm reported to child supportive. Yeah.

Katiuscia:

But that's another thing of the government trying to tell you how to be a parent. Kinda like what's happening in California, how kids don't need parental consent and actually a kid can go in and try to. Go through the process of changing their gender without ever telling the parent. Now that passed, I think during the Charlie Kerr assassination, the timeframe after anyone can take the child. You think of these things again, the more people that feed off the government bottle, right? And they're just nurtured and fed and given everything they need. In theory, you do. You have loyal people forever because that's the person who's giving me everything and. I just have to kind of exist for it

Megan:

because it's easy.

Katiuscia:

It's so,

Megan:

and you don't have to grow up and you get to rely on big daddy government and it's easier. And then the government comes in and says, you know what? That should offend you because a fence is a bottom shelf emotion and it's easy. You don't have to think about it. And so they're feeding that. And I think just in the course of this conversation that the powers that be introduced gaslighting so hard during that time because I think that they are, I do really firmly believe that there's not two sides. I think they're trying to just make us all be two sides against each other. Keep us from talking, well you're gaslighting me. Well, you're gaslighting me. I'm offended. So that we're not questioning what is really going on.

Mike:

It's intentional.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Right. It's intentional manipulation that its sole purpose is to divide.

Megan:

Yep.

Mike:

It's ironic because you think about the last 10 presidential campaigns, they all have their little slogans, and most politicians get voted in on change because people are like, oh, you know, we're not super happy with the way things are going right now, so this guy sounds better. The manipulation that goes on around those messaging is pathological.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

To some degree where you think you know what you're doing. Anybody in politics knows exactly what they're doing. Oh, it is. They pay people, they pay advisors and they manipulate the shit out of people, and they rely on the fact that there's a bunch of sheep out there that will follow the little shepherd depending on which direction he wants to go and how rosy his vision is. So it's absolutely intentional.

Megan:

And look at the Kennedy Nixon debate. That was just, they realized that they had a chance for marketing. Oh, we'll throw some makeup on Kennedy. He's already good looking. Nixon looks like a tired old man,

Mike:

right?

Megan:

And he won. And that was a huge part of it. And they went, oh, here's this new avenue that we can take to manipulate everybody's perception.

Mike:

Okay, so that's a great lead in through talk about gaslighting in various settings. And I want to say government for the last piece because it's so overbearing as far as all the gaslighting that takes place in in politics and government. So gaslighting from a social setting, you think of times where you've been in a social environment. And you've experienced gaslighting?

Megan:

Absolutely. I have so many examples of that, but I'll tell you about, I have a friend, we will call her Tiffany, and she had started dating this guy and in his circle of friends and you have your main friends, and then he had like his second string group of friends and there was a girl in that group. We'll call her Bethany. And Tiffany is telling me the whole story as it's happening, texting me throughout all these interactions. And she's like, this girl, Bethany hates me. She fucking hates me.

Katiuscia:

And the boyfriend's

Megan:

like, no, absolutely not. She's a sweetie pie. She would never, and she's telling me all about these interactions. And I'm like, this bitch hates you, dude. This goes on and on for a long time. And they go to a Christmas party and they're walking in the door, he's in front and Tiffany's behind, and Bethany comes running out to give him a huge hug. Oh my gosh, Brad, it's so nice to see you. And she's hugging him and glaring at Tiffany. Tiffany's like, holy shit, this is so weird. She wants to bone you, dude. And he's like, no, she would never, she's engaged to this guy and he's just insisting that that's wrong. You're being overdramatic, you're being jealous. It's just not right. And I'm like, no, I think you're right. Sounds like this girl wants to bone him.

Katiuscia:

Right.

Megan:

Like seven years later they're now married kids, the whole nine yards. And the now husband is telling the story about how they were all at a bar and Bethany is about to hook up with one of the other second string friends.

Mike:

Did he think she was a bitch? And she thought he was a dick?

Megan:

Oh no.

Katiuscia:

Okay. For, no, not

Megan:

that bar. Tie

Katiuscia:

back to how when we

Megan:

met,

Katiuscia:

was this at some Valley lodge?

Megan:

Um, no. So they're about to hook up and so the boyfriend is like, okay, well you guys have a great time. I'm gonna go home. And she gets up to give him a hug and whispers in his ear, it should be you, I'm going home with, and he now tells Tiffany this story and she's like, I fucking knew it.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

And it was seven years of gaslighting.

Mike:

You are shitting. Yeah. Okay. I know I'm outnumbered here, but women are professional gaslight.

Megan:

Sure. We're just different about it because women, men, well, we just talked about this. Women manipulate differently than men,

Mike:

and this is coming from a guy's perspective because of course, I think every guy on the planet has been called a narcissist. Maybe not. I've been called it a lot, and it's amazing to me because I am so far from,

Megan:

I think that's another word thats also wildly overused.

Mike:

We'll talk about that dark triad.

Megan:

Oh yeah.

Mike:

It's creepy.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

But I have found that, and again, maybe it's just coming from a guy's perspective, that women are stir at gas and making men feel like it's them.

Katiuscia:

Interesting.

Mike:

You haven't experienced that?

Katiuscia:

I, I don't know.

Mike:

Because women gaslight women all the time. Would you agree with.

Katiuscia:

When we talked about the manipulation and the behavior a few weeks back, we were saying how women can see how other women manipulate men. We can see it. We wanted to know if men can see it from men. Other men doing it as well can see it. Yeah. We

Mike:

most men that have like some level of emotional intelligence, like a EQ. Level that's not

Katiuscia:

a

Mike:

rock, flatlined

Katiuscia:

rock. Yeah. I think I would just classify it as manipulation if I'm seeing it. Mm-hmm. My viewpoint on all of it is I am such a realist in reality, borderline pessimistic. We've gone through that where I'm just a realist. I can't even fat. It's the concept of women being jealous. I can't even fathom. I understand who car, I wish I had that car.

Megan:

Yeah,

Katiuscia:

A generalized surface level envious of something, but this insane jealousy that some women can have. I just can't even comprehend it. It's so weird to me because I think their life is so different. You don't know any, there's so many factors and that probably all stems from 28 years of being sick, where my reality was very different than everyone else's. So I just never had the time to really hone in on my pettiness or issues. I've had a couple examples of men gaslighting me, so I guess I, I probably just don't see it from women, but yeah, I mean, coming from a man, that's your experience, seeing it played back on you, and I'm sure that's wildly different than what we experienced.

Megan:

I'm gonna say that the two, the two genders manipulate each other.

Mike:

Absolutely

Megan:

more than women manipulate other women. And men manipulate other men. Yeah, because we can see it coming from us. You can see it coming from men. And so it's easier if you're a confident person. It's easier to shut it down than coming from the opposite sex because we do operate so differently. Although we did just recently learn that while women being manipulative, that I can see is annoying. Men who manipulate like women will set my brain on fire. You did learn that.'cause I think that there are those examples too. I can't think of a single example of a woman manipulating like a man, although I'm sure it happens. But there's a man that I know who I really try to avoid generally, and I could not figure out why I cannot stand him. And even my husband was like, he's such a nice guy though. And I was like, I freaking can't stand him. I don't wanna talk to him. I want nothing to do with him. He's hiding behind this. Aw shucks. I'm a nice guy. Veneer. And he is so passive aggressive and manipulative to get his way, but it's like a woman and it just, ugh.

Mike:

Okay. So is that man successful in his own right.

Megan:

In, in his own little way.

Mike:

And here's where I'm going with this, is that I think to some degree, when you get into levels of gaslighting proficiency, the more successful somebody is, whether it's in their own mind or not, they have a higher ability to guess.

Megan:

Absolutely. Well, that's how you get cult leaders. Yeah.

Mike:

How you climb to the top of the ladder. Mm-hmm. And I think your average, Joe, they could give a shit about trying to control somebody, trying to manipulate somebody, right. To get to a different level.

Megan:

Well, I think if you can stand on your own abilities, your own skills, your own talents, you don't need to gaslight people to get ahead. But if you are a, I don't know, a weaker person, or maybe you're not, and this guy's talented at what he does, but he's positioned himself to be invaluable to the people he works with.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

But he did that through manipulation because he's not as strong of a leader or whatever else. And so I think the quote unquote weaker people, which everybody has weaknesses. But the weaker people have to use more manipulation than just somebody more

Katiuscia:

beta.

Megan:

Yeah. He is

Katiuscia:

a very,

Megan:

he is very Beta. Beta.

Katiuscia:

What are your experiences

Mike:

from a social standpoint? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The one that always triggers me, not triggers me in a weird way, but I, you need a safe

Megan:

space. Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Yeah. It comes to the top of the list.

Megan:

Mm-hmm. So

Mike:

I knew this woman for years and we were friends and then we started dating and she would make comments, well, you're a big deal.'cause I was involved in nonprofits and stuff, and I led a company and like, you're a big deal. No, just another person. Right. And so we dated for a while and I started seeing red flags. Mm-hmm. Like narcissistic type flags,

Megan:

like glove bombing stuff.

Mike:

Absolutely. Definitely narcissistic type. Behavior, and there was a big family event, and I told this person that this is about family event. So that's where my focus is. It just so happened it was the anniversary of when my father passed and I was trying to get the whole family back together to celebrate his life. And so we went to the event, and after the event, this person sent me a text like, you're the meanest person that I've ever met. You didn't focus any of your attention on me. You're a narcissist. You, and throughout all of the buzzwords, narcissist, chauvinistic, whatever, and all the names that this person called me

Megan:

applied to her.

Mike:

Apply to her.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Again, going back to the illogical thing, like you seriously are ill, not logical.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Your line of thinking is so war. So that was the one that I always refer to as the ultimate gaslight. Trying to make me feel like I had done something wrong or that I wasn't being genuine. When she was the one that was like, and she would say it all the time, you're a big deal. No, I'm not a big deal. I would just, I want to contribute back to the community for the right reasons. I wanna be involved. I love leading people. I love seeing people around me grow. It's funny when you initially get into a role of leadership, I think most people move into those roles and they don't understand what leadership is. They get into the role and they realize, gosh, it's a lot harder than they thought it was. And then finally you get to some level of maturity where you say, I want really good people around me because if I have really good people around me, it makes my job easier and we all win. Mm-hmm. Then I would see individuals that would excel far beyond what most people thought they were capable even themselves. And when you saw those people excel, you were just, wow, this is so rewarding to some degree. I think that's what Trump didn't realize that in his first campaign. He realized that in a second,

Megan:

but I think he does that in his business.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

If you go back, it's just for shits and giggles. Go back and look at some of the old apprentice series and you'll see that he does that. But you again, going back to the Oh, he's a chauvinist. Yeah. And he just has like the sec who? Who's the chief of, chief of Staff. Chief of Staff.

Megan:

Yeah. First he has tons women on his staff.

Mike:

Think of Tulsi Gabber. Think of back and forth on Bam. Bonde.

Megan:

We all do. I I don't go back and forth. I just go back. I don't want her,

Mike:

yes. I know. Finally, lock somebody up, please.

Megan:

Yeah,

Mike:

please.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Do it. And don't just say we're coming after you. But it's funny how the media and the left gaslight him into calling him all those names around things and you look at it and you go, actions and words and his actions don't support the words that you're saying.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

And you're, again, you're trying to manipulate people into thinking that they should see something in a man that isn't there.

Megan:

I think it's a lot, it's projection. I think one of the reasons that projection works so well, and it reminds me of another Lyndon Johnson story. During one of his campaigns, he said, well, let's accuse the guy in the media of being a pig fornicator. And his chief of staff was like, we can't do that. It's not true. And he said, well, let's just get him to deny it. Because if I'm accusing you of something and you're denying it, that puts all the focus on you and you're having to deny it. And most of us are gonna spend all our energy going, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not a chauvinist, I'm not a racist, I'm not, I'm not those things. I'm not a narcissist. And then it completely covers up that person's behavior. So that's why they wanna project that onto you, because now the focus is on you.

Mike:

For a geriatric millennial, is that what you guys call yourself?

Katiuscia:

She doesn't call herself millennial at all, but geriatric millennial. So

Mike:

we are, you keep bringing up LBJ like a lot. So I'm super impressed with that. Thank you. That's awesome.

Megan:

I'm really a 70-year-old

Katiuscia:

man

Mike:

and you keep trying to pull me into the government political I outside and I can't back out 'cause we're going wanna save that one for,

Megan:

but I think that, that, that projection works in a lot of cases. I think that's how a lot of romantic relationships. Turn abusive. Even if that person isn't intending to be abusive by that projection, they take whatever they're trying to hide and they project it onto that person, make 'em deny it, and now that person is so focused on not being a narcissist, on not being X, Y, Z, that this other person's behavior doesn't matter anymore.

Katiuscia:

I'll jump in and say, it's kind of when we're saying how words do have meaning. Mm-hmm. And you were saying, yeah. Even in the court of law, like words matter. The second someone says anything and the other side is like, objection. My thought process is too f and late they hunt. So strike it from the record. Pretend you didn't hear it. Yeah. Un ringing a bell. You heard it. It's there. Right. And all of the things with Trump. Trump was loved, revered with his success, praised on the view all the things before he switched parties and ran

Megan:

in 2016.

Katiuscia:

And I just think of how they do celebrate success if it matters to them. You notice how these celebrities are never chastised in the news. It's because they're all playing ball along this same narrative. All the rhetoric, they all play ball. So you like success when it's on your terms. You think that those celebrities are gonna be giving into a world of social, it's just a wild

Megan:

right. They're gonna give up their Malibu mansion little,

Katiuscia:

they're gonna open their Thanksgiving table to everyone who hasn't been removed from the country yet.

Megan:

Right.

Mike:

Okay. Great segue. Let's take gaslighting down Celebrity lane.

Katiuscia:

They're also. Incredibly out of touch. And that's why they should never have an opinion. They don't even, they don't know, they don't a private opinion, but they don't what going, wanna hear don't going on in the world.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Did you see that? I think it was a post of Kim Kardashian and she wants to, she feels like she's not in touch with what's going on.

Megan:

You think

Mike:

right now when she wants to know how much a carton of milk costs?

Katiuscia:

Oh, I think we're all a little disturbed at the new skims Appar. Oh, that just came

Megan:

out

Katiuscia:

that we've been seeing

Megan:

her, her Merkin line.

Katiuscia:

Yeah.

Megan:

That's a little

Katiuscia:

You'll never be, you'll never understand what's going on in the world because you've been fortunate to make your money on how you know all the ways you made your money.

Megan:

And it sex tape,

Katiuscia:

it will never apply

Megan:

intentional

Katiuscia:

to

Megan:

Oh, a hundred percent.

Katiuscia:

It will never apply to your own life. So act as one of the people all you want. But the fact of the matter is anyone who is a celebrity, anyone who is a lifelong politician, that is rich or has maybe dabbled in the stock trade. Nancy.

Megan:

Nancy, with her $24,000 fridge.

Katiuscia:

Yeah. And your $10 ice creams when all of us were locked down during COVID.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

The point is, you're outta touch. You shouldn't be number one. This is why we love the term limit concept, because you shouldn't be making a career in government. It should be your obligation, your civil duty. It should be like

Megan:

jury duty

Katiuscia:

if the president can't have more than two terms. Then everybody else should have terms as well. Schumer, Pelosi, everybody. Why you are at, you don't even know what year it is or what the gene style is. Clearly, because you're, shit, I don't know what the

Megan:

gene style is.

Katiuscia:

You would've just done your civic duty.

Mike:

Yeah. But celebrities have been notorious for it, and it's really difficult to listen to the hypocrisy. So you have Beyonce. Okay. Who has crowned herself? Queen Bee talking about No Kings. Right. Total hypocrisy and lives in an environment that pretends to be something that she's, and makes people feel guilty for having a different opinion. And she's clearly trying to manipulate money and power when you think about her husband and the whole Super Bowl thing.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Right. This bad bunny and it's intended to divide.

Katiuscia:

Sure.

Mike:

I'm convinced it's just intended to divide. I love football. That's the one sport I'll watch. College football. Pro football.

Katiuscia:

Hold on. You have to fill me in on the bad bunny thing because I was outta the country.

Mike:

Okay. Here's the deal on Bad Bunny. So Jay-Z I forget what entertainment organization he has, but he's responsible for the entertainment at the halftime show. Okay. And so he selected Bad Bunny and if you look back over the last, I don't know, I think he's been doing it four or five years.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

The entertainers that have come on, they've always been kind of controversial in the last couple years especially, it's been very divisive and the messaging, it's actually been kind of childish. And so he selected Bad Bunny, he's Puerto Rican singer, apparently has a lot of following a great Latin influence. Cool. Apparently he has problems with ICE and had came out saying that he would not perform in the United States because of ice and is very anti-Trump. So a lot of controversy going on. And of course, and again, here's where the gaslighting comes in. Oh, you don't like his music, therefore you are racist. And maybe I want to watch the halftime show and be entertained and not preach to about your beliefs and you hate the United States, and I happen to love the United States. I think we have flaws, but I do think it is the best country in the world. And I firmly to my core believe that. So there's all this controversy and I'm convinced that Jay-Z is intending to divide the country by putting this guy up to and creating this divisive dialogue around, well, if you don't like his music, you're racist.

Megan:

Wow, who put Jay-Z up to that?

Mike:

I think it comes down to. Did you ever see House of Cards bitch?

Megan:

A little bit. I didn't.

Mike:

You have to watch it. Kevin Spacey, Robin.

Megan:

Right, right,

Mike:

right. And it's all about, I'm convinced it's about Bill and Hillary.

Megan:

I could see that.

Mike:

But Robin writes way too hot for Hillary. Oh,

Megan:

absolutely.

Mike:

I mean, and Kevin Spacey's kind of a poor version of Bill Clinton, but it's all about power.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

It's not about the position, it's about power.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And these celebrities have all this money, but money can, you can only buy so many things. You can only, you can have so many yachts or so many cars or houses or villas or whatever. They all seek power. Mm-hmm. And I think it's power. I really do. When it comes to why he's trying to do that, you can go down the rabbit trail on. Who's the grand puppet master of all this stuff? I do. I think it's this search for power and to be able to do whatever you want, whatever you want, and make people think that they're crazy if they think something else.

Megan:

And I do think that whoever the grand Puppet master is, they pick people who have the history of maybe you got arrested when you're in high school. Maybe you got a DUI, maybe you, whatever. And they use that pain point against you. But you also maybe have ambition. Well, you can't get elected on your own if you were accused of date rape, but we will help you and or whatever elected, sell a million albums, whatever thing it is. And they use that pain point to manipulate those people too. And you can have all this money and you can have all these yachts. You have to further our agenda. That's what I mean by who put Jay-Z up to that. Not that I think Jay-Z I was down with Jay-Z's music back in the day, but I don't think he's probably a mastermind. I think he's had some help behind the scenes.

Mike:

Well, I think it comes down to money and power.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Right. You've heard of the 1630 fund, right?

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And Soros, obviously there's ties to the money trail. I think it, it really comes down to people just hunger for

Megan:

mm-hmm.

Mike:

This ultimate power over. And we're talking a little bit about Taylor Swift, master Gas Lighter.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

The fact that she

Megan:

cult leader

Mike:

cult, absolute cult leader. I think she has done more harm for women than good, is my view on it. Because. She gets out there, she talks about her ex relationships for the world to hear, and it's always in a negative, vengeful way. And she's like, I'm connecting with my audience. I think it has negative consequences on how young women view relationships.

Megan:

I don't follow her music, but you never hear, here's what I learned from this breakup. Right? And it keeps those young, impressionable females who are now some in their late thirties, stuck in that man hating club,

Mike:

right?

Katiuscia:

But it's also, you're doing the same thing. You are not learning anything from it. If you're making the music about it time after time after time, and there hits massive hits, what have you learned from it? Because you're repeating the same pattern.

Megan:

Well, and where's the incentive to do better?

Katiuscia:

There's not because why?

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Well, and she does it because it's the whole click bait.

Katiuscia:

Yeah.

Mike:

Right. Controversy sell. But I think it perpetuated an environment of this hateful toxicity. Could you remember when Facebook first came on you, you'd post a picture and you, I used to do it. I'd post a picture of my kids and I'd see how many likes I got when you were kind of like, oh, cool. Yeah. Right. And now it's become how many people are gonna view and comment.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

And they realize that by creating this cspo of hate and discontent, that making people feel that they're doing something wrong, that's what gets attention. It's like a bunch of children. We have a bunch of children running around. Mm-hmm.

Megan:

Well, I've said it before. The majority of adults are walking around with the emotional intelligence of an 8-year-old child.

Mike:

I'd say maybe six be wrong.

Megan:

My 9-year-old says this because nine is fucking hard. She didn't say fucking, but nine is hard and. So most people just stop at eight.

Mike:

Well, it's true that what they say, that you really develop your personality up through the age of five, and you have set the foundation for how you're going to, what kind of person you're gonna be. I can say that with like my kids.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

My son especially, I could tell who he's gonna be when he was that young, and I don't, I think some people just don't progress from that point.

Katiuscia:

Yeah. But also look at the type of people who are raising kids now. Mm-hmm. Right. We were all disciplined as children. We came out fine. I could count on my hand how many times I was actually slapped or spanked. Not many. Again, it's that threat of the knowing. But what I see today is parents squatting down with their kids who are throwing a full blown temper tantrum in target.

Megan:

Why are you acting like, why are you doing

Katiuscia:

this?

Megan:

Why are

Katiuscia:

you raising your voice? Why are you negotiating with a child? It is your job to raise and discipline that child to make them a good human. Otherwise, we're just gonna have a bunch of people, like we have these problem people who don't take accountability and who are super enabled and reliant on handouts and just be a good person. Grow up, stop getting offended the world, you're not that important. I think at the end of the day, people wanna get offended because it's, Ugh, this is on me. This is on me. Nobody gives a shit. You're not that important. We're just one in billions.

Mike:

Yeah, it's, it's amazing because you think about life overall and then, you know, of course all of us have had situations where somebody close to us dies before they were supposed to, or something tragic happens and we get so caught up in all the drama that's going on around us, and this is the pessimist in me, or the realist enemy me is like, when you die, you die. And that's it.

Katiuscia:

Even for all these people with power, you're getting all this power and control only to die. But I guess when you have that power and control, you're able to shape nations, you're able to shape your certain agendas, you're able to bring the people you need in place when you're at that high of a level. So I think of who's the mastermind? The mastermind is dead now, the original one. Mm-hmm. And now it's just, it's like this cycle that's constantly perpetuated in some way and we can't figure it out.

Mike:

And I think that's when you hear people say, use your superpowers for good. I think about that all the time, how I interact.'cause I can get a little erratic when I see something that sets me off the Subaru that cuts in front of me and darts through three lanes of traffic. So we can all stop at this stoplight and I wanna give him a peace of my mind and react in a way that I shouldn't react. But you kind of step back and you think ultimately, don't you wanna have a positive impact on? Mm-hmm. Those around you. My, my dad used to say this and I never understood it as a kid until I was older. I always, I always thought I had a different meaning. He'd say, leave things better than you found it. Mm-hmm. So it was your room. We'd go camping and somebody would leave trash and we'd have to pick it up and my dad would say, pick up that beer camp. And like nine years old, I'm like, well, there's no beer in it. Why would I

Megan:

came up? Right.

Mike:

And he was like, 'cause we leave things better. And what I didn't realize, because I'm an Xer Gen Xer, and what I didn't realize is that he was trying to teach me a lesson. Mm-hmm. And Gen X, you learned by observation. And then eventually people were like, no, you have all these different books on how you're supposed to coach and coddle your child. And it dawned on me years after I was. Older and realize, gosh, he was teaching me a lesson. And I think that's, that's the lesson that I wanna pass on to my kids is leave things better than you found it. Don't gaslight the shit out of people. Don't be negative. Resist the temptation'cause it's there, but leave things a little bit better than you found so

Megan:

Well, and I think it's What do you want your legacy to be? For the people who want the power and control, they want their name to be their legacy.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

But for people who are not into gaslighting and power and control, I just want my kids to grow up to be productive, healthy members of society. I want them to be able to raise their kids in a healthy way. I just want to make that ripple effect of healthy emotional choices or healthy brains or healthy bodies. And I don't care if I get that credit for it.

Mike:

Yeah. Which is a major difference between narcissists and

Katiuscia:

Machiavellianism

Megan:

and. Is it gaslighting or is it just lying? Are they a narcissist or are they just an asshole?

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

There's a difference.

Mike:

Right. Well, it's, it's funny. So the label thing.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And you get people with that want to, want to put a label on things. And I remember when it was unpopular to have labels, you didn't even talk about labels. It wasn't a thing. And then it became popular and people almost wanted labels. And then we reverted back to people not wanting labels. Don't label me, but you get individuals like Trump, right? And people say, well, he's a narcissist. And they lead you to believe all the reasons why he's a narcissist. You think about all the people that are successful in life, most of them have narcissist. Tendencies.

Megan:

You have to have some level of ego to be able to be successful as a professional athlete, a millionaire businessman, a politician, whatever thing it is. You have to have some level of ego to be able to do that.

Katiuscia:

And ruthlessness.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

You have to. Otherwise, you're nothing. You're a pushover. Yeah. Nobody respects you. You're not respected on the world stage.

Mike:

Right.

Katiuscia:

But if you're a little bit of an asshole and you can back it up, and if this is what I do, I love it. I, I think it's great.

Mike:

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna run through the list. Machiavellian manipulators, lack of empathy, indifferent to morality, self first, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Nixon, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Putin, Jeff Bezos are all people that at work typically

Katiuscia:

fall into that category,

Mike:

fall into that. And you're a game of throne.

Katiuscia:

We are a Game of Thrones,

Mike:

Lord Ferris. Oh yeah. And Bish.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm. There, yeah. Oh, a hundred

Mike:

percent total. Okay. Here's the narcissist, which is total preoccupation themselves. Mm-hmm.

Katiuscia:

Right? Mm-hmm.

Mike:

So a little bit different like Machiavellianism. Manipulators don't have empathy, but not, they could be kind of behind the scenes. They don't need to be, it doesn't need to be necessarily all about them as long as whatever they're doing about

Megan:

the mission, the outcome, right.

Mike:

Narcissists? Nope. It's me. I'm the one.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

I'm the shit. Mm-hmm. Hitler, Stalin, Trump, Nixon, Kanye West.

Megan:

Really?

Mike:

Mariah Carey.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

The Kardashians. Yep. OJ Simpson's, Ted Bundy. And so there's this fine line between the labels, whatever they are, and the behaviors. I think with all of them, you step back and say, I do this all the time. What's their motivation? You gotta have motive. So when you think about the flip side, and it's, it's ironic'cause of course I like chat. GPTT, it and no democratic people are on the list. So you kind of go, okay, I can name a few.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

But when you think about what their motivation is and why they're doing it and what's their primary purpose, it makes you really question why they're doing it.

Katiuscia:

Well, even for Trump to show up on that list, yes, we agree that he has some narcissistic tendencies, but he's also not doing it all for himself. Mm-hmm. Trump is doing it for America, right? Or everything. Now, the new thing that just happened a bit ago with the ballroom and how everyone's freaking out about the ballroom and complete disregard for every other president who's done something on taxpayer dollar, but this is on donor money, his money, and all of a sudden it's a problem. I had seen something, did I send it to you guys? It was. A tweet, Hillary tweeted, it's not his house, it's your house and it needs to stop or something. And someone said, your husband literally had sex in the White House. You need to set this one out, which was amazing.

Mike:

Saw that.

Katiuscia:

Also, why don't you just, again, with this, you're not relevant to this. You have no say here. You want to be seen so badly that it's just that, Hey, wait, pick me, pick me. I still am relevant. I'm still important. No, you're not, girl. You didn't break any glass ceiling. You just broke my mind with your annoyance and corruption.

Mike:

You missed the Obama basketball court that he had put in.

Katiuscia:

Oh, Obama basketball court.

Mike:

Yeah. I wonder how many world leaders are, you know, playing. Oh,

Katiuscia:

yeah,

Mike:

two on two.

Katiuscia:

No one's gonna say these things, so it's just, okay. Trump not falling into either even the other category, be where it is more outcome related.

Megan:

Well, and Trump donates a lot of money behind the scenes that nobody knows about.

Mike:

But do you think with all of them, somebody said it, that they're all actors and with Trump, absolutely. He is a grand marketer.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Then you look at some of his behaviors and you go, okay, you know, actions and words, right? So you look at some of his behavior and you go, okay, I could see the narcissist side of him. You know, where he talks about that wouldn't have happened if it was wasn't for me. Or is he just speaking what he believes to be the truth? But then you look at the actions that he takes and you go, that is not narcissistic. Yeah. Behavior. Same with Elon Musk, the way he's been gaslit.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

The man is brilliant. He's probably the smartest man on, on the planet. Absolutely brilliant. And the good that he has done for the sake of other people, I think it's Tesla, that they did not patent some of their Oh

Megan:

yeah, I heard about

Mike:

that. Practices so other places could learn and even call the man a Nazi. This is so,

Megan:

but that was only after he hooked up with Trump.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

I don't see Elon having narcissistic tendencies.

Mike:

I don't either. I can see him being totally driven in, in a completely different level intellectually than most people.

Megan:

And just being blunt or to the point, or focusing solely on your mission could come off as being selfish, but that's not the same thing as narcissism.

Mike:

You think about all those people that I rattled off on the list, they're all highly successful people. Of course, you, you're not gonna hear about, you know, the guy down the street that is that way. But they all have that common thread that whatever their mission was, they were dedicated to it and they did everything they could to see it out.

Megan:

I'm gonna say that most, and I'm not a doctor, I'm not a medical professional, but I have experienced several, probably true narcissists in my life. Undiagnosed, but I really firmly believe that in my very inner world, and none of them were wildly successful human beings. They're mid-level people, just middle of the pack. And the reason that they are so manipulative of other people is because they're mid-level.

Mike:

I could see that with individuals that are mid

Megan:

Yeah, it's an insecurity.

Mike:

Right?

Megan:

And that's where it stems from

Mike:

and, and I think to some degree that even your masterful narcissists have some level of insecurity that they're trying to overcome. Right? They're trying to prove to everybody that they're more powerful or smarter, or that the other individual is not as educated or powerful. So I could see that.

Megan:

And that's how you get cult leaders and serial killers and lifetime politicians.

Katiuscia:

Yeah. It's also a projection and to go work it on another person. You're already dealing with it in yourself, but let's just project it on someone else and get them to just completely mindfuck them as well. And that's hard.

Megan:

You know what I do think is interesting is when it backfires because the other person is not afraid to do their own inner work. So my example for that is, I ha I have a friend who was married and the marriage pretty much fell apart because he was an alcoholic and. So the ex-wife is now just, well, he's an alcoholic just talking shit about him all the time until he ends up in rehab and really means it and does the work and is willing to change for the better. And all of a sudden that really throws her drinking into a very sharp, bright light. I think it's interesting when a narcissist is really trying to put that other person down and make them feel shitty and point out all of their flaws, but then that other person kind of plays the Uno reverse and is willing to work on all of those flaws, and it's probably not healthy. Probably doesn't start out healthy, but I'm willing to work on all of those things. I'm willing to do all of these things and that person gets better and better. That narcissist starts losing control.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

That's fascinating to me.

Mike:

I wonder if there is some kind of correlation between narcissism and substance abuse. You think about Trump and he's up very adamant about he never drinks, and I don't think Elon Musk is a drinker, and not that you have to be, but that

Megan:

is

Mike:

interesting. But it always makes me think about people's. Whether alcoholism is a disease, and I, I think it comes down to, it goes to psychology of behavior and control and all of those things that it's steeply rooted.

Megan:

Interesting. Like if they, they wanna be so in control, right? That they're not going, because my one family member that I'm thinking of really, I don't think I ever saw her drink anything ever in, in my life while she was alive.

Mike:

You think about, it's almost an escape of reality, is how I view gaslighting or narcissism or theism or a delusional view of reality. And they're trying to envision themselves in a place that they're, and they're doing that to control the environment that's around them. I wonder if there's any kind of correlation,

Megan:

also the environment that lives in their own head.

Katiuscia:

Yeah. You know what I mean? A lot of people live in this. Their own reality. So everything is supposed to go the way it's supposed to go, and then absolutely shocked when it doesn't because that's not how the world works. And so now matching that up, they've gotta spin something else and bring it to the level that they know how to somewhat control. Because you're controlling it in your head.

Mike:

Yep. Let's move to. Fast lighting in medical.

Megan:

Yeah,

Katiuscia:

that's a fun one that I have had a lot of experience with just being sick for so many years and having to deal with so many doctors. And a lot of doctors, especially when I had first gotten sick, I was 13. You want the best doctors for your child. So my mom was doing all the research. We found these top doctors at Children's Hospital, San Diego, and I saw this specialist and she was the very renowned, very God complex. And as you go through this time with her, she was a huge proponent of medication. And I'm talking like top dog, heavy duty, the hard hitter medication. And so that changes a kid at 13, I mean, you're in high school. I was in a new high school, 60 milligrams of prednisone a day.

Megan:

Oh my gosh.

Katiuscia:

I think I gained 50 pounds in my first And you're a teenager, month and a half a teenager. Yeah. At a new school. So it's, it was so hard and then constantly manipulating all kinds of drugs for me. But there was a point when I was still under her care, so I was under her care for five years. Still, there was a point where. We had kind of stopped medicine because it was just making me sicker and I wasn't feeling good and nothing was improving. The disease was just going super active. So we're like, let's do something different. Let's look into these natural paths. So let's look into supplementing your body with all the things, which now, today is the way, right? I'm sorry I'm not a doctor, is a way that people are finding relief from a lot of chronic illnesses, whatever it may be. But for me at that time, that was a huge thing to step out and that doctor would sit and tell my mom, you are absolutely going to kill your daughter. It's going to be her death will be on you. And she pounded it into my mom.

Megan:

That's so fucked up.

Katiuscia:

Isn't that fucked up?

Megan:

Yeah. And

Katiuscia:

on. On the other hand, I look at the people who bring their little children to her because she is so renowned and so she's pro. I mean, I'm sure she's a great doctor. My final experience wasn't good with her as that period of my life, but it was just always a battle. I would do research because now this is, I got sick in 97, so early two thousands, internet is all a thing. Now I'm starting to, you know, really do research. Oh no, 97 is when I got sick. I was in high school. So, but in early 2000 I'm bringing ideas and bringing things that I find and the shunning of it. And then when I moved to my normal adult rheumatologist who was amazing for a while until he wasn't, he's same these God complexes where if you don't listen to me and you don't do it exactly as a medical journal, say as I've done for every other patient I've had, because you all are the same.

Mike:

Because the human body is made exactly

Katiuscia:

the same. It's all the same for every single one of us. Then I got in verbal altercations with him because now I'm an adult and I'm doing my research and I was in college and learning all of these things, talking to other doctors and talking to people. But I still, I loved him'cause he was, he had taken me through a hard time and then put me kind of back into one. So it's just so wild how these doctors, and most of us, most people, blindly give the faith to the doctors. You've seen this before, you've dealt with this before. Please help my child. Please help me. Please help us. And I was telling Megan the gnarliest drug experience I had, one of the gnarliest was. If I was on 60 milligrams a day of prednisone for years and I vowed I'll never take it again'cause it's a horrible drug. That's

Megan:

insane.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm. And then one of the tapering, the different dosages was like one 50 every other day. I had a doctor, my adult doctor, I was very sick. I was in the gnarliest flare I've ever been in an oh nine. He put me on a gram, a thousand milligrams of Solumedrol, intravenous three days in a row. I was hallucinating. They were giving me lithium, they, all of the things. I was so sick. But that was the protocol. So when people just go in blindly and thank God for the internet, and thank God for social media now on this side of social media, because when you make people believe, I had a doctor here in Idaho when I moved here and finally got insurance. I've had nausea for seven years. Seven years. No one can figure it out. We took out my gallbladder in 2020. We've done a bunch of other testing, no one can figure it out. Is it stress? Is it me? Is it ine? I don't know. But stress definitely is going to play a role in that. But seven years, maybe we're pushing higher now. And I went to this doctor, the GI specialist, and I told him everything and these are my results and this is all my labs. And he was like, yeah, there's no reason for this though. So maybe it's all in your head. If you said that to anyone else who hadn't had all of the problems that I've had for all the years of my life, you could probably make someone start to think, oh my God,

Mike:

I'm

Katiuscia:

crazy. Maybe it is all in my head. What am I doing on my daily life? And da, da and overanalyzing. Every step they take, every move they make. To try to figure out how they're creating this problem for them, because Nausea's so fun. I carry Zofran everywhere. It's not fun. Yeah, I'm sure. I think I've nailed it down that stress is a part, it makes it worse, but it's not creating the problem.

Megan:

Because that's like a baseline problem for you. Yeah.

Katiuscia:

It's a baseline problem and no one can figure it out.

Megan:

Saying it's all in your head is like the medical version of hurting someone's feelings. And when they call you out on it saying, I'm sorry, you feel that way.

Mike:

Well, and it's funny and it's worse than that. Yeah. Because they come from a place of authority.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

Right.

Mike:

And so you're viewing this individual like they're an expert, which they should be. And for a medical doctor to say that who's trained in whatever specialty he is, he's not trained in behavioral sciences to say it's a psychosomatic thing.

Katiuscia:

Right.

Mike:

You've conjured this up in your head, get the fuck out.

Katiuscia:

Nobody actively wants this. Nobody wants to be sick. Wait, granted, you do have those people who want it for the victim aspect, but nobody wants a hard life and nobody wants something like that where you're, you have constant nausea. My other thing that happened to me regarding body was when I competed in Bikini Bodybuilding in 2013, long time ago, I was on a team. I had this team of coaches in another state. I was done with shows and I was on a maintenance. Just, you know, I'll compete in a few months maybe. And my body, because I've been on multiple rounds of chemotherapy, my stomach is destroyed when I stress I don't eat. You both know this. I can survive on nothing. It's not healthy. Zero outta 10, don't recommend. But it's reality for me. That's just how I do it. And also, would I rather not eat or would I rather eat something and have nausea? I'm gonna opt for this one and not eat at all. So this coach, the diet that they had put me on, that I transitioned to, it was hurting me. I was, and with my kidneys, one of the side effects is when they're active, they'll spill protein and I'll retain fluid. So I was retaining a lot of fluid. Nothing was processing. I was feeling really shitty. And I remember reaching out to these coaches and being like, there's something wrong. Can we shift the diet? Not complaining, but there's something wrong. I know my body. Hello? No, everything's fine. No, everything's fine. And then this was like all the bottom, but under her coaches, not the top one. I'll never forget the top one. Sends me an email. This has nothing to do with the diet. This has everything to do with body dysmorphia. This has everything to do with the diet. And I left that team immediately. Yes, and I told her off very. I don't know if it was very eloquent, but it was nice enough that I'm never gonna be a dick to anybody. But when you're told that, and again, anyone else who hadn't gone through a health journey like I've gone through, you're impressionable young women. I mean, 12 years ago I was what? 28,

Megan:

30?

Katiuscia:

I was 30. You, you tell anyone that, and they're gonna start to, I mean, unfortunately women, and it's probably an impact of just the societal norms that they've tried to put on us all these years. We do have a lot of that. So you are, the ads matter to women, and that's why these past few years when all the body positivity stuff started coming out, I thought, this is nothing like what I grew up with. I have a normal, healthy standard. But I'm just saying, you tell the wrong person anything like that in the medical field, when you've been trained and schooled and you're a doctor and you're a renowned doctor, you're gonna make an impression on anyone. And that's fucked. That's an authority that you need to really use those superpowers for good because look at all of the sick people. Why is it that our obesity rates and our sickness rates and cancer rates have gone up so much?

Mike:

It

Katiuscia:

just crazy.

Mike:

Well, it's funny 'cause you talk about the body shaming and of course that natural segue into this ozempic, right? And how it, it's almost an indication that we're moving them back to people wanting to be fit again. But you're seeing all these ads that come out and talk about all these side effects and it codes back to why are people promoting these things and what aren't they telling you and what do they want you to believe and how long they want you to be on these things.

Katiuscia:

If I can make one statement about any drug that you probably will ever take in your life though, to anyone, any medication, everything has a side effect. Nothing is without side effects. Maybe if you go into this now new wave of therapy with the peptides and then this and the really. Boosting your immune system and your whole cellular structure. But when you talk about any drug, I mean, I was on a chemotherapy for my kidneys that the side effect was in 20 to 25 years. It could give you bladder cancer from being on this medicine. And I just thought you cure one thing to ruin another. There's always a trade off. It's just what matters most right now. I need to stay alive, so take it. And we deal with that in the years to come, God forbid. Everything has something. Prednisone. I hate prednisone. It makes you crazy. It makes you bitchy and nice and cry all in the span of 32 seconds.'cause it messes your adrenal glands. But damn it, if I ever have inflammation so bad with my arthritis, I have five milligram prednisone on deck at home because that's the only thing that will help it. So it's the trade off to be temporarily crazy, but it also destroyed, I had melanoma after I was on prednisone for years. So it's just, there's always something. Nothing is ever without a side effect.

Megan:

Well, it's just like socialism. Nothing is free, nothing is free. There's a cost to everything.

Mike:

Yeah. It's funny, my family has a history of acid reflex and I would hop Zantac every, every night I'd have to take Zantac

Megan:

and now they have a class action

Mike:

Uhhuh. So it was funny. Kids were toddlers. I was in grad school. I just got promoted, so I gained a few pounds, baby weight, and I had really bad acid reflex and a lot of it was stress. And I wasn't sleeping and I'm not an, I'm not known for my sleeping patterns. I am now, but I wasn't then. So I ran outta Zantac. I go to the store I couldn't find, and that's weird. I went to a different store, couldn't find it. I look it up on the internet and they say it got recalled because when it sits in the bottle, it breaks down and people have long-term liver problems. And that was the light bulb in my head that just said, you need to eat better, do things the right way. And so I lost my baby weight. But to your point, everything has side effects. Pull it back into gaslighting, right? Everything has some kind of side effects and you're constantly in a state of trying to weigh does it make sense to do it or not do it? And I think that's the social dilemma that we have with whether it's medicine, whether it's, or social media, addictions or whatever, or interactions with people have choices. It always comes down to choices. Do you have any medical?

Megan:

Not really. Especially not as good as Catusa, but I do think that when I was looking into a DHD for my daughter, we realized that a lot of research for that specifically, but I think a lot of medical things had only been done on males. And so it was, well, I can't be a DD. My brother was a DD, I'm not like that. I'm not jumping off the couch climbing the walls. Oh no, that's because nobody freaking knew it, but a DD and women is here in the brain. It's not in the body. So I think that a lot of doctors just go, well, this is what works for all the bodies. And they don't take into account that women's bodies handle things differently than men's bodies. And a body in the midst of puberty is gonna handle something different than an adult body or a pediatric body or, and they don't take that into consideration because the way the medical system is set up, they don't have time. To dig into it on their own, to do their own research. They have to do exactly what they were fed in medical school and tow that company line. And they're getting incentivized to push certain medications or certain vaccines or whatever. And if you ask about that, then you're a conspiracy theorist and you don't trust, you're a anti-vaxxer, you're a science denier. So the train keeps rolling 'cause nobody can ask any questions.

Katiuscia:

On the flip side, I'd rather be labeled as a science denier if I had to be labeled as anything than someone who's just gonna blindly follow something that a doctor said. I did that for a little bit because we had to when I was young and then I had formulated an opinion and the desire to learn and to not feel like shit all the time on medicine.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Katiuscia:

I wanted a way out and I wanted a different, a different route to take because it was just so painful to live like that every day. And I got through it. I mean, I put myself in remission, off drugs, through fitness, through what I ate. I cleaned up my diet hardcore. My diets are, it's pretty good, but nothing like, it was

Mike:

3M and s and the string cheese,

Katiuscia:

the m and ms. That was a treat. Okay. That was a stressful day. But I think the point is so many people back to what this is all about, you want it easy, you want it fast. You want someone else to do the research for you. Just tell me what I need to do.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Katiuscia:

Start thinking for yourself. Nobody does that.

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

And that's painful. When it comes to your own health and body, you should be only one. You should be the best advocate for yourself.

Megan:

Well, because it's your own body. They don't know what it feels like. They don't know what you're going through. They don't know. I wish that there was an easier way to change that, that they could listen to people and really believe it. But then we also have talked about the people who go to the er. Like you will only go to the ER if you are absolutely on death store, but then there are people who roll into the ER with a ingrown toenail hoping to get some meds, and so they just ruined it for everybody.

Katiuscia:

Sadly, I think with the medical system is that everyone is so bought or incentivized, all the Congress people. Mm-hmm. Everybody, that you have this new wave of RFK and these hearings that they're putting them through, and you just think you're fighting with someone who's trying to make a better way for people. Mm-hmm. An option. It's just an option. You can do whatever you want still, but it's an option and you're making. You're vilifying them for basically taking away money from you. Yeah. In the big scheme, we can see that. We know that this is all a cost thing, a money, an income, and that's disgusting. People should be just enraged by that, that you're putting your own financial gain over my child's potential health, over my health, over what's better for me over what's in our food. Because everyone's sicker and fatter and unhealthy, and you're putting your own pocket to line your own pocket ahead of human lives. That's fucked.

Megan:

Well, and somebody sent this to RFK, when are the drug commercials going to go off the air? But those companies pay so much money to those TV stations to run those commercials that there's no way any news anchor is ever going to say anything bad about any of those medications.

Mike:

They'll just fade away into the night.

Megan:

And that's why Ivermectin was so vilified, because it's an open patent because nobody's making any money on it. It all comes down to money gross. And it's so gross.

Mike:

So I gotta go down the Tylenol thing, 'cause that one hits me close. And the gaslighting that's going on with RFK Junior is absolutely ridiculous. They're, they're questioning his authority because he is not a doctor is like Dr. Oz is behind him. And the discussions around Tylenol and autism. So my daughter on the sphere end of the spectrum. And you know, of course there was a lot of discussions when, you know, way back when that there was some thoughts that, that MMR vaccination caused autism. Well, I noticed patterns well before they were, they had to have the vaccinations, but we spaced them out. So they weren't all clustered. And it's amazing because autism's been around for at least diagnosed or categorized for decades in the fifties is I think when they first diagnosed it. And it, it was not a lot of research done there, was it? There wasn't a lot of prevalence done. I and I, I think back then, you know, people just didn't talk about it. What the nineties roll around and the numbers start to get to, quite honestly, what I think is pandemic level. So, I mean, I think it's one in the last statistic I heard was it was one in 68. I think it's lower than that. Children are born with autism and some of that is categorization. And I think people. Trying to get a hand out personally. Mm-hmm. Um, because I know a lot of people who have gone down that route and like, your kid's, not autistic, my daughter, nonverbal feeding tube gastrointestinal, flush the whole bad. And when RFK came out and said, Hey, acetaminophen, there's a link. And then this stupid people on social media that were popping, oh my gosh, pills of Tylenol and blast him. I'm thinking, you know what? Finally somebody's talking about something that is real and uh, impacting a lot of people's lives. And you step back and you go, why hasn't anyone done anything about this? Those numbers are staggering. It's like one of the highest diagnoses of, um, illness in Amer in the world, quite honestly. And you wonder why isn't anyone doing anything to try to fix it, and it's because it's more profitable for them to not fix it. You made the comment earlier that we're in an environment of keeping people ill, not making 'em well, and it's so absolutely true. You think about going to the emergency rooms and. Gosh, you go down the pandemic trail forever and all of the gaslighting that took place during that whole period and nothing's ever gonna change because I think you follow the money, you find the answers. I think it just about everything. If you question anything and you being the conspiracy theorists in the room, myself included, but follow the money. Money doesn't lie.

Megan:

It always links to the money.

Katiuscia:

I always say, and I don't know if you've listened to him, you have, if anyone needs a good podcast on all of this shenanigan with insurance with pharma, it's to listen to Brigham Bueller on Joe Rogan. I think there were three episodes within the past few years, and then you just did one recently. It will blow your mind and make you infuriated because you hear all the shit that goes down behind the scenes and what he's trying to do and how he's, he goes on hearings with RFK, I mean, all of these things. It is it, it will just, yeah, it's Bergen.

Megan:

Yep.

Katiuscia:

10 outta 10.

Mike:

Okay, so we hit on kind of social, hit on medical. Do you wanna go religious gaslighting or do you wanna go government gaslighting? I

Katiuscia:

think we go probably government. Government. Government. Government. Government gaslighting.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

Okay. What do you think

Katiuscia:

With what aspect though?'cause it's all over the place. I mean, media does its own thing, but they're all speaking for certain people in the government. Unfortunately, I think government is a bunch of the career politicians that are perpetuating all of this, perpetuate every lie and everything you hear

Megan:

well, and the lobbyists that are paying them to do it. I think it's just the most insidious thing.

Katiuscia:

Do you think it's been like that forever though? Do you think When this country was founded, it was like this, it was this dirty,

Mike:

you know? That's interesting. So I got onto this kick where I was reading historical books and it was, you know, the Thomas Jefferson's it, it was really the Bill Reilly series, killing Jesus, killing Kennedy. They're great.

Katiuscia:

Okay.

Mike:

They're great. They're, I think, factual, mostly factual. I'm sure it's probably really factual. Okay. But they're easy reads. They're not like your boring history book on.

Katiuscia:

Okay.

Mike:

But I went down that whole period of my life where I was really into history, and I'll still do it occasionally today, but the mud slinging that took place. So on killing Lincoln, he was so anti-slavery that they were calling him really, really nasty names and he was getting threaded. So I do think it's existed, and I go back to this belief that I've had for, for the last 10 years, which is human nature hasn't changed. It really hasn't. The vehicles in which we are exposed to it, absolutely, but human nature hasn't changed. People have been evil and nasty since the, I won't say the beginning of time, but somewhere after the beginning of time.

Katiuscia:

I'll ask, since both of you tend to know a little more history and I've delved into at this point in my life with elections, back in those old, the days of your the old days, right? Beginning of the countries type stuff, was the campaigning this vicious. Or it was,

Megan:

the founding fathers were so mean to each other. They were such mean girls. Okay. But they were just straight out in the open. It was like in the newspaper. They would take out whole editorials about each other.

Katiuscia:

Okay.

Megan:

So I appreciate that at least. But it was vicious.

Mike:

I remember reading, I think it was in John Adams, they would hang dummies from his trees with his name on it and stuff. I think they tried to burn his house down at one point because of some of the stuff he was doing. And now we just have social media, so you can just

Katiuscia:

social media.

Megan:

But I feel like their insults were more intellectual. They weren't calling each other You racist, you're a Nazi. They were actually giving good, solid insults.

Katiuscia:

Like, I don't like this person because this is why. Yeah, this is why. Okay.

Megan:

Yeah. Respectable insults.

Katiuscia:

Respectable insults. I can get down with respectable insults,

Mike:

but you made a comment about career politicians, but then you have my two faves, Jasmine Crockett and a OC who are phony as can be. They're,

Katiuscia:

yeah.

Mike:

I go back to the actors and the stage and the whole bit, and they came from nowhere with really no backing. And all of a sudden they're in these roles, which I don't think they clearly understand what their roles are supposed to be. And they're gaslighting the shit out of everybody, and they've almost taken social media to an art because they know how to work it and they're just absolutely ridiculous. So how did these individuals get put in?

Megan:

They got put in there. They got put in,

Mike:

right? When you look at Ilhan Omar and her history

Megan:

mm-hmm.

Mike:

It's pretty fascinating. Yeah.$45,000 in debt and she got elected to a representative seat, and then $30 million. Yeah, so follow the money.

Katiuscia:

This is how when I said I always wanted to do my civic duty and do a stint in Congress, but then I realized I would have to sell out immediately and I would never win or get a bill passed or get hurt on the floor because you have someone is bidding on you immediately.

Megan:

Thomas Massey has talked about how hard it is for him to get things done because he's not a sellout and it's really difficult. And he's even talked about, I can't even be an independent because there are only two cloak rooms. So if you want anybody to vote on your shit, you have to be in one of those cloak rooms, rubbing elbows, having drinks, whatever. And so if you're not affiliated with one of the parties. You're spew

Katiuscia:

how gross it is. Oh, it's

Megan:

super gross's

Katiuscia:

gross And I don't think everything is told to even the president. I think what goes on behind there, what goes on in higher level stuff of maybe things that we think, why aren't we being told this? I think that he's in the dark on things too, because he's not one of them.'cause he hasn't been infiltrated and kind of rooted in to this just cesspool of politics and government. It makes you kind of bummed about, gosh, I thought we had the bust. Best country. Yes. But when you look at the leaders and you look at the people who are gonna be taking over and stepping up to the plate for certain things and you just think, yeah, how is she even an option to take over Chuck's position? Right? But why is he still in there anyway? I mean, he's a fossil. Get out.

Mike:

I love when he does that.

Katiuscia:

Look at Owen. Get out just enough but her, and then they say stuff knowing that it's wrong and you're just

Mike:

Yeah. But that's the title shift that you're seeing right in the party. So you have Maxine Waters. You have Nancy. Yeah. You have Nancy Pelosi

Katiuscia:

dead.

Mike:

Yep. Chuck Schumer. And they're being replaced with a OC. Jasmine Crockett. Ilhan Omar Hakeem Dollar Store. Biden Jefferies. That's the new age

Megan:

we can go on. I'm Tim Fucking Walls and I can't load my shotgun that I use all the time

Mike:

load.

Megan:

Yeah,

Mike:

that's comical. I mean, and it's funny because Kamala Harris's book coming out and talking about all the reasons why I think it was got failed that said it should be called everybody else sucks because she blames the whole failed election process, which when you think about it going back to the No Kings protest, it's the Democrats that have blatantly tried to push a monarchy hype effort. Yeah. And are out there going, no, y'all are wrong. You're all the kings. And you think, okay, no primary.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

Put into role can go down the list of all the things they tried to, they banned Trump from social media. They tried to get him removed from ballots and they're out preaching that. He's the key and you kind of step back and you go, are people really stupid? Are they really that stupid that they don't see that, that their hatred for somebody is so great that they can't see logic?

Megan:

Yeah. It makes me so sad as a conservative, I want a healthy democratic party to balance. I want a healthy competitor and they're not healthy, and so pretty soon. The Republican party is going to also be unhealthy because they're not keeping each other in balance. And it's what, like we've talked about with stasis, you need stasis in a two party system, and they're so unhealthy, they're so upset about Trump, they're so upset about all the things, and it's just not healthy. And it makes me sad because we can't have a conversation.

Katiuscia:

You can't even move forward though. Yeah. How are you supposed to send the world and the country forward on a good path when all you do is bitch about 'em all the time?

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

That to me is really sad because these are the people that are supposed to be creating rules and making sure our country is safe and prosperous and all the things, but how we had said most of these people who were normal were just average Democrats.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Katiuscia:

Have now. Flipped more to the center, more towards the Republican side because you've got such an extreme taking over on the other side. Yeah. The comedians who are coming out. Mm-hmm. And saying, shit, the Joe Rogans of the world, who was more how you said like the Bernie bro, and now he's able to see different things because you wanted an inch and you took 27 miles. You can't do that. It doesn't balance. You're gonna isolate the majority of the people and then your wacky crowd that is who's the loudest. It's the same thing that happened with the Me Too movement. It's the loudest people that everyone thinks, oh my gosh, are they gonna make this big impact? No, it's a small majority, but they're also the loudest. And I think back to when I said we're over it, we're not gonna just be quiet and let it happen anymore. I'm over it. I'm tired and I'm not gonna be an ass about it. I'm just, I can be myself too.

Megan:

Do you remember that movie Wag the Dog?

Katiuscia:

Which one was that?

Megan:

Wag The Dog. I wanna say Woody Harrelson was in it, but it was in the nineties. It's such a good movie.

Mike:

What's it about?

Megan:

It's about politics. Does the dog wag the tail or does the tail wag the dog? And there's this candidate running, and I'm gonna butcher this synopsis 'cause it just popped into my head. So here's the a DD coming out, but this candidate's running and they need him to look like he loves America. So let's find a troop that'll come and support him and vouch for him. And the only guy that'll fit this very specific box that they've created is this absolute war criminal. So they have to bring him in and clean him up and it's just all optics,

Mike:

right?

Megan:

It made me think of that when you said, who installed a OC and Jasmine Crockett and that brother lover and. If you know, you know, and I mean, because A O C's a pretty girl and she's loud and she's not afraid to say whatever unhinged thing pops into her mind. And so she's a willing candidate. So if you are the master puppeteer, that's a great pick.

Mike:

Well, and and people have said this for years, that the president, that they're a puppet.

Megan:

Sure.

Mike:

Right. They're a figurehead. And

Megan:

I think that was very clear in the last administration.

Mike:

Right. It said puppet head, not puppet, dead

Megan:

body doll.

Mike:

He's the man clearly.

Megan:

But who was running the show? He was off the reservation. Who was

Mike:

running the show? Did you say? The deep state.

Megan:

I mean,

Katiuscia:

what does that mean?

Megan:

That's such a loosely defined term.

Katiuscia:

I hope that the day I die, before I die, God gives me a flash of who it was running the show the whole time, and then I can just never, it

Mike:

had to have been his top

Megan:

advisors,

Mike:

right? People that wanted, that were bought and paid for by their constituents, and they were trying to appease certain groups. The best thing that happened to the United States was the dissolution of U-S-A-I-D.

Megan:

Absolutely.

Mike:

It was a catastrophic money funneling scheme, which is why the Democrats are so enraged about it, because they cut off their money and the figureheads, so the AOCs of the world and that. I take this back to Obama because I didn't vote for Obama the first term, but I voted for him for the second. I was always the candidate, like I, I've always been registered as a Republican, but I've always been that person that was, I want the best person for what the country needs right now. I'm not gonna let a certain party affiliation draw my lines. And then when I moved to Idaho, of course you only get Republican ballot. And you only get a Democrat ballot or whatever, except for obviously the presidential elections. But I think with Obama, he was just so well spoken and Oh yeah. He's a good communicator. Yeah, we're gonna go with that guy. I mean, he was a senator for two years. That was it.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

What else did he run? He, he was an what? An attorney. And you, you think about a OC, Ilhan Omar, what the fuck has she done? Why did, why did she get in there? And it was interesting. Very, very Muslim in Minnesota, which I didn't realize until I started kind of looking, who's this woman and why is she so bitter? Jasmine Crockett, they're all actors.

Megan:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

They're all just somebody to get attention. Somebody to espouse this belief that things are gonna be better or that they can make a difference. I used to say this 'cause I was in business for years. If your only strategy is to talk shit about your competitor, you don't have a strategy. Mm-hmm. You don't have a plan. And I would tell my sales team that we don't go that route. Go in, tell 'em what you can do. And be the best at it.

Katiuscia:

Mm-hmm.

Mike:

And show 'em through your actions, don't talk shit. And so when I see that happening now, I just think it's 'cause you don't have a strategy. Your, your plan is to gaslight the shit out of the competition. Mm-hmm. So here we are months and months after Trump has been elected and he's been called, you know, 15 to 20 different names. I keep thinking about, okay, what's the next one? So the only topic we haven't really touched on is religion.

Katiuscia:

In what way? We're both, you're talking about the political aspect of religion. Religion is the control, not faith. Talking about any church,

Mike:

the control element

Katiuscia:

of

Mike:

it. Okay. Where people are led to believe that their religious views are wrong because this other church believes these people cult leadership and to a, yeah, yeah. And to a point where it's unhealthy and it's intended to make you think that, to really question your beliefs

Katiuscia:

and to put you against each other. Right. To put, 'cause there's, there's a huge stigma on people who have one religion and then the other, depending on the religion, of course we're talking more those borderline religions where. You're really pinning, and then you're creating a whole new level of divide where you can't separate the faith from the person because the person encompasses, you just label them and group them in with that faith. Right. And that's some crazy shit, because that's done a lot. And then you talk about the megachurches, the money and everything.

Mike:

Do you have any examples gaslighting in church?

Megan:

Uh, no, because I was raised by wolves. I didn't start going to church till 10, 12 years ago.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

So I've had a pretty solid experience Yeah. With church. But I know that there are a lot of people who have, as they call it, religious trauma, because that power can absolutely be abused. I also think that with each of these examples that we've been talking about, a lot of cults, like I know Jonestown came out of a Christian group, a lot of gaslighting and abuse comes out of a true thing, which makes it harder to deny. Right. And so if you take a true thing, the Bible. Then you bend the truth or you are using it to make a lot of money, or you take a true thing like we all wanna be healthy and it gets turned into you can be fat. It's all of this. Gaslighting has that common thread of there's one little piece of truth. So you can't just write it all off as bullshit everywhere.

Mike:

Right.

Megan:

And that's what makes it even stronger.

Mike:

I think there's like 4,000 different religions.

Megan:

I believe that.

Mike:

And I always think about can they all be right?

Katiuscia:

I mean, they believe they're right, but as a Catholic, there are certain Christian groups or denominations, I guess under the Christian umbrella that will completely talk shit against the Catholics And Hard. Hard,

Megan:

oh my gosh,

Katiuscia:

hard. We're honestly,

Megan:

it's astounding.

Katiuscia:

I'm Catholic. It also happens to be Christian. It's a Christian.

Megan:

You show over here minding your own Catholic business and they just start coming unglued on you. It's wild.

Mike:

I got severely attacked. For that. So I was raised Catholic as well and got married and let's just say it was a different faith and their family was completely involved in that. Faith, various levels led churches. And once they found out,'cause I, we didn't really talk a whole lot about or whatever, but once the family started really drilling into, what do you believe in? I said I was raised Catholic, I got hit hard that it's false prophecies. Mm-hmm. Uh, the only reason why the Vatican has so much money is because they stole it. And inevitably I would get owned it and they did research on certain principles versus their faith. And I would get riddled with this is not right and your line of thinking that you should convert. I didn't convert, but I couldn't believe. I just thought, wow.'cause when I was raised, we went to church every Sunday, we, I went to catechism and C, CD is what I think we called it, but it wasn't part of everything we did. We weren't really the vow. So I just thought, okay, it didn't impact the decisions I would make every day. Then when I got older, I started really kind of going, okay, maybe I should have paid more attention. You know, you're raised with good values and you try to do the right things, but then you realize, I think it was when I was in college, you start getting exposure to people in their different religions and how fanatical they are. And what it seemed to me was that the people that had the highest level of fanaticism in their religion, where that was crazy and the ones that were on the offensive

Megan:

mm-hmm.

Mike:

On why you're wrong and why you need to change your views. And they just thought, go back to the basics of Christianity and live your life and be happy. Love your neighbor and love your neighbor and treat 'em right.

Megan:

Well, and it's like what you said about don't talk shit about your competition.'cause that just shows that you don't have anything to stand on.

Katiuscia:

I think it's also people of different faiths now. Especially if you are strong in your faith. I don't think you could be married. Kind of like, I don't think that a Republican and a Democrat can be married right now. Mm-hmm. The other, in the same house. If they have extreme views on either side, you know what I mean?

Megan:

Yeah.

Katiuscia:

It's just, it's become so divided and who's dividing us? It's not all of us doing it all the time. It's what everyone's being fed every day by every interaction they have, everything they hear when they turn on a show or

Megan:

so. We're all in a cult. We just didn't know. It

Katiuscia:

isn't that wild.

Megan:

It's the deep state cult.

Katiuscia:

That's the deep state cult. Holy shit, what's Emon gonna do Now? Our guy,

Mike:

I think the whole Charlie Kirk thing was open people up to at least talk about religion. And I think anytime you get an opportunity to revisit things, whether it's RFK and looking at food and health and it's painful at first. Mm-hmm. People don't wanna do it. Uh, it's healthy and it'll eventually get you to where you need to get, but you've gotta put in the work first. And I think the, it's funny'cause I told you this, that after everything happened with Charlie Kirk and I loved Charlie Kirk and loved his messaging. And I went and tested off my Bible and listened to Bible podcasts to get reconnected because it's not a bad thing and it just, it pains me so much how he's being gaslit as all of these things that he wasn't just because of his beliefs and you wanna step back and you think, well, should the same thing happen to you for your views? I think he'd think differently. And it goes back to like logical side of people these days just doesn't make sense.

Katiuscia:

I think that's if people think, if you choose to think at all and so many people don't. And like I said, all the things that he said that had been taken outta context and then just ran with, they go hard with that. You can't argue with someone who isn't gonna take the time, who's gonna stop you the minute you say someone's name and be like, bigot, racist. I can't even have a debate. I love a good conversation. Conversation is fun. It's. Easy. It's what makes us different. To learn those nuances about each other and what we each like and how we were raised, our morals, our values. But when you shut it down immediately and you just close out the other person because of your perception or because of what you've listened to that's been told to you by a bunch of propaganda and just vile rhetoric, then that's on you and okay, then I guess we agree to disagree and I'm not even gonna bring it up because I also don't have the mental stamina or the capacity to try to not even bring someone to my side. Just reason. Can you open your mind to something bigger than you? Can you understand a different perspective from yours? Oh, no. Then I think it's better that you just don't engage at all. And that I think is the point that we're at.

Megan:

Well, and I wonder if some of them do that so that you don't, they make it so exhausting that a lot of us, it's just not worth it.

Mike:

Shutting down the conversation.

Megan:

Yeah.

Mike:

I think it goes back to the control elements that those people have a desire to try to either make you feel an inferior, tear you down, whatever, and they feel like they won. It's like the protest. Okay, great. You know what, go do your thing and protest, but did you accomplish anything?

Megan:

Well, and what's the point? Is the point to win or is it to learn something or understand something?

Katiuscia:

It's just to make sure that we don't have a king and the, and I mean it was a success.

Megan:

Yeah,

Katiuscia:

because we don't, so kudos and thank you.

Megan:

Like that Jeff Goldblum meme. You did it. You crazy. Son of a bitch. But what's the point of any of these arguments? Is it to win or is it to get to know somebody better?

Katiuscia:

I just wanna get to know people more. Yeah. And I hate shutting down a conversation except for this one. I'm gonna shut it down now because it's been going along well. But we will repeat this and thank you so much. Absolutely. Because this was a lot of fun.

Mike:

This was fun.

Katiuscia:

And this is gonna be a mind blower though, of an episode. It's not very lighthearted, but we like that. So thank you.

Mike:

Well, it's been a pleasure.

Katiuscia:

Yay. Um, have a good day to everyone, except if you let your dog boop on our lawns and don't pick it up except for you.

Megan:

Absolutely. Bye bye.