Event Matters

Unlocking Cutting-Edge Event Speakers with Deborah Rey-Burns

• Kershaw Partners • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Deborah Rey-Burns' unique journey from finance to art to founding Propeller showcases a radical approach to sourcing and shaping speakers who cut through the noise. She’s built an industry niche, representing future-facing thinkers in technology, creativity, and culture, by challenging industry norms and emphasising genuine impact over mere presentation. In this conversation, we learn how Deborah cultivates extraordinary speaker briefs, challenges assumptions about what makes a compelling talk, and leverages unconventional expertise to create sessions that truly land: from a World Champion shooter sleeping in firing ranges to a cyborg artist seeing sound. 

Key Takeaways:

- Diversity as a Strategic Asset in Speaker Selection 

- Systems Thinking as a Differentiator in an Opaque Industry

- The Power of Authentic Storytelling in Event Impact

- De-Risking Through Curated Expertise and Selectivity

- The Hidden Value of Active, Multichannel Relationship Building

- Intentionally Designing Overwhelm to Build Buyer Trust 

- The Future of Event Content Lies in Precision and Tangible Takeaways

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Curtial Partners podcast, Event Matters. Conversations about the realities of running, growing and scaling event businesses today. This podcast is for established event business owners who want clarity, confidence, and a different perspective on the road ahead. Our aim is to keep these conversations open, informal, honest, practical, and even sometimes a little bit informative. So you can walk away with fresh insights and ideas you can put into action in your own business. I'm glad you're here, so let's get started. Welcome back to Event Matters, and this week I'm joined by Deborah Ray Burns, founder of Propeller. Deborah sits at the intersection of ideas, influence and innovation. And in this conversation, we explore what it really takes to find the right voice for the right room. Especially in a world that feels increasingly uncertain. Deborah's route into the speaker world is anything but conventional, a start in finance, a pivot into art, school and design, and then the creation of Propeller. Originally supporting artists and designers before evolving into a specialist bureau representing future-facing thinkers across technology, creativity, and culture. We talk about how she shapes briefs, challenges assumptions, and de-risks events so speakers don't just inform, they genuinely land. We also dig into the systems behind the business, including the bespoke CRM Deborah built to streamline everything from briefs to contracts and how ADHD and neurodiversity have influenced the way she works, leads, and prioritizes. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. You'll get new episodes before anyone else and keep up to date with the stories shaping our industry. This is Event Matters, and this is Deborah Ray Burns. So hi and welcome Deborah. I'm delighted to have you as guest on the Event Matters podcast. Um how's 2026 been so far for you?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's been one of those years that uh starts off with a lot of uh global challenges, let's say. Uh and so you'd wish, you know, after after 2025, we thought we'd have a less bumpier start. So let's hope the rest of the year um cleans up.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I think probably uh what as they call the the the geopolitical landscape is as probably as rocky as it's ever been at this time of recording. And Lord Above, I I I hope that changes. Does that affect your business? I mean, what's happening around the world in terms of who uh the the speakers and so on?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think uh it's funny, you end up having similar uh requests for talks like we did after the pandemic, you know, Vuca, uh what you know, uh uncertainty, what is risk, and how do you mitigate risk? So it's the you actually end up funny enough, during these times get a similar request.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I'm sure. Okay, so let's well let's go back to the beginning. You started your career in finance, um, and then you went to art school, and then you found a propeller. So why why did you why do you think that this was going to be the the the the career for you? What what what was it that about the speaker world that that got you excited?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I I have to I have to go back a step. So I my father had a stroke and I went back to South America to look after him, and so as part of his therapy, I had to walk down the I had to walk on, you know, taking for walks. One of these was on a beach at the time, and we're talking, we were talking about the future.

SPEAKER_00

And then I And what's what sort of age were you at this stage?

SPEAKER_01

Probably, oh God.

SPEAKER_00

I'm presuming this is this this is Uruguay, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I was in Uruguay, living in London, um, and I was about 35 years old, just had finished art school, went to live in China, had had tried a few things, but kind of wanted my next pivot. And and I guess I wanted to pull my two passions. One, um I uh my first degree in my career was in finance, second, you know, training was in as a designer. But I wanted so I wanted to merge those two worlds, so finance or just business and creativity. And so my first the first um version of Opella was actually a business development agency for artists and designers. And my first clients were my teachers at St. Martin's, so that was how that started, and then I because of that, I was I people said to find out other teachers around London that I was doing this job and offering this service, and then a TED speaker who was also uh designer from the London College of Fashion, one of the one of the professors, just gave a TED talk, and she was super excited, had lots of attention, and needed someone to negotiate. And so that was my first um client. And I guess the reason why Papella ended up not just as a speaking agency but in the niche, she was um using biofabrication to turn kombucha into fashion.

SPEAKER_00

So I know that's exactly what kombucha is.

SPEAKER_01

Back then no one knew what kombucha was, so it was a it was a different ask. But now everyone knows what kombucha is. So she was turning the mothers into large-scale um format, um, stacking them up and then creating kimonos and leather jackets and the the it was supposed to be compostable fashion. So uh so that's my first.

SPEAKER_00

Presuming it was compostable fashion, yes, it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so then it we didn't it smells a bit you know vinegary, but other than that, it was it was fabulous, really beautiful um the fashion itself, and then because of her, then other people from her niche, people in like using technology and biology, uh, and uh to yeah, with with their creativity, they said to come to Propella. So that's how that niche kind of like organically developed.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I guess I guess that that being at uh at CSM uh was I mean it would have been different back then to how it is now. I mean the the area around Central St. Martins is incredible now, isn't it? I mean it's just uh just amazing a part of London. But I guess that that led to the the the type of speakers that you first came across because you know they are by their very nature quite out there a bunch of people, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. And so firstly, I I think I I'm also a bit different compared to other people because or other agents maybe, because I have those those two very divergent backgrounds, you know, business and and creativity, and I can I'm translating between the two and I'm building that bridge. So um if so, yeah, so I'm actually that's also part of the the future that was paved by that by that first client.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay. And you and you've you've set out to to remain, I mean, not completely in the in the creativity niche, but but you know, certainly within innovation and technology and creativity. I mean, was this was it kind of by accident or by design that that you you you stayed in that niche?

SPEAKER_01

No, I think, well, you know, I'll uh business talks and motivational talks are the bread and butter of the of the industry, right? So uh so I could I could tell from the beginning that that wasn't my personal place, especially with motivational speakers. There, you know, um everyone does it really well, so why should I compete against them? And with my degree in design, you're also trying to find the white space in an industry. So not only I could see that I was very different, I'd look at other speaking agencies and bureaus, and I'd see that even my website was very different, the people I was coming into contact were very different, but but then I could also see with my business hat that actually they have a lot of value. So it was a mixture of the two: a bit of a bit of uh background, intuition, a bit of uh mapping of of where we could sit in the industry.

SPEAKER_00

And and when you when you set out, did you did did you delve into other markets or did you did you think to yourself, uh uh you know, stick to my knitting here?

SPEAKER_01

I actually Papella is probably the most international speaking bureau in the UK because most of our speakers are abroad, and most of our events are abroad. So by default, um that's just happened organically. We haven't we've we might have met them in London, or they might have come across us and then they've traveled, they move around the world, they might take a secondment in LA working for a film studio, or they might move from Berlin to Italy because of their professorship has moved on. So, and and and I yes, I just find I haven't really planned it that way, it's just happened organically.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay. And and I guess in terms of the clients that you have, you uh is it is it, you know, because good clients will obviously come to you and say, Oh, listen, um Deborah, I would like to have this speaker or whatever it might be, because that they know because the the the speaker isn't is in their market sector or or industry or whatever it might be. Do you sometimes find yourself saying, Well, yeah, okay, he or she is in that your sector, but have you ever thought about this speaker because it may be more interesting? It's it's a different perspective, and they are attached to your industry, but they're not actually in your industry.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I mean, that's I think um as a designer you tend to challenge briefs from different perspectives. You and again, I like to have a plan B, someone that's a bit more interesting, a bit more exciting, someone that's maybe um up and coming, that might they might not be known, but they actually be the one that be the one that will be the most memorable. So that's how I like to see it. Um so I have a client in in Zurich, and for the last 22 years, they are running an event for business people on the future and on trends, and most recently they came to me looking for speakers on focus and how to regain focus in a world of AI slop.

SPEAKER_00

So focus in terms of oh, attention.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So if you're aware of it, how do you and you could see that as speakers that talk about the science of attention or it could be the benefits of attention. Um, so you could really go down the very traditional, you know, how people are cutting through through digital experiences, you know, design or UX, which is in case you don't know, it's uh user experience.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Whereas I came to it with, okay, um, I found a woman who has uh who's a world-class shooter, uh, and she has um developed her ability to gain focus by sleeping in a firing range.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And then I had another one who was a uh who's a writer, um, Icelandic writer who talks about that intuition. So, for example, with all in the world with all of data and AI, how do you actually from the inside find out what is true and what is not? Because it's you know, that intuition muscle has to be exercised. So, and then the third speaker, which actually is the one that was selected, he is an expert on ASMR, which is have you heard those videos where they that they accentuate um sound and they add all these tactile sounds. It's very it's like embodied listening. So, yeah, so then it chose that one. So that's how I approach it.

SPEAKER_00

And when you when because I mean they're fascinating speakers, particularly the the the the lady who likes to sleep in a s in a shooting range. That I tell you what, that wouldn't that would improve your focus. Um, but do you because there's no there's no guarantee, is there, that they're gonna be great speakers. You know, how how do you do do you find yourself coaching them a bit or do you uh or uh uh do you do you ever come across people who are hesitant to do it because of the people they're gonna speak to?

SPEAKER_01

I generally can't recommend anyone unless they've been give they've given talks before.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I we're not I'm in the business of de-risking events, not adding more risk. So so I actually find the profile, find their talks, are they a good speaker, preferably obviously keynote level, and then I present them to a client. I wouldn't someone's background, like you say, doesn't mean they're going to be a great speaker. So it's more about try that's why it's like find sometimes finding a needle in a haystack, because you're trying to find this specific expertise or something very interesting, but they also need to be a great speaker. So that's why that's why we exist, I guess, as a net as a as an industry, because it's not easy to find these people.

SPEAKER_00

And I guess it's it's the the the crucial bit in all on this, Deborah, is is the research, isn't it? It's it's it's I mean the internet must have helped your business enormously, but but in terms of knowing where to find people or hearing the rumors or you know, or even attending events where they might have been, I guess that's that's the key to it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. That's what that's how you so for example, I have different modes, right? So in real life, I go to uh attend events, I go to conferences, usually internationally, because it's like widens up the portfolio of people, different voices, different perspectives, and um otherwise you're we're all in a bit of a silo in the UK sometimes. And obviously, I read a lot, so I have a shed load of newsletters and substacks and and all that type of thing. Conversations I have with people, you should speak to that person. Oh, I reckon I have curators that recommend people to me saying, Deborah, she's right, this person's right in your wheelhouse, speak to this person. So it it's yeah, a lot of people come to us now because they see they see the network we work with, they see their peers, and they want to be represented.

SPEAKER_00

So, what what what puts them in your wheelhouse then?

SPEAKER_01

What is what's the well I guess you know they have to be thinking about business in a unique way. They can't just be talking about business, and they I mean that they're a dime a dozen, but they have to be thinking about business in a different way, or they've built something very unique, something that the I I always put myself in the situation of the event organizer. If I have to present this person to my boss or to an audience or on a website or to the sponsor, what's going to like prick their ears? So that's what I tried to present, those type of people. Um and obviously technology that's happened organically and we're future thinking. So if you're not talking about the future and technology, then you're not really uh in that space. And obviously, creativity and innovation, because I think most businesses, if you don't innovate, you die.

SPEAKER_00

And if you're not and and if you're not creative, particularly, I mean, particularly funneling enough, within the events world, you know, lots of people would claim themselves to be hugely creative, uh creative, but they're not necessarily. I don't think I think I think creativity is something that you're born with, but also then it's something that you can you can learn up to a point. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01

I think so. I mean there are frameworks to help uh people who are not naturally creative to develop that muscle a bit further. That's what you know workshops are there for, that's what um the design council, for example, has a framework for businesses to be more sustainable. Um, so there are many pathways. There's design thinking which is challenged sometimes, but there is a lot of content out there and a lot of people who teach this, so then that you can um your team can like there are a deck of cards that can do it, you know, just to really take you out of your everyday thinking. So it definitely can be taught, it definitely can be um facilitated.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's in terms of the people that you the you research, and you you know, as you say, they're they're they're different. That's you know, they come from different backgrounds or they're they're creative or i innovative or whatever it might be. Do you is there a point where you say, okay, I want you to come into this setting and they need to be persuaded to do that? Or I mean, you know, I I not being a speaker and actually terrified of the idea of speaking. I mean, I guess that some speakers just say, Oh, yeah, what a stick me in front of everyone, but I I f I fear that's probably not the case, is it?

SPEAKER_01

No, there are some people who have spoken so much that they don't want to do it anymore, or they're so busy at work, um, they have a lot of projects on, they're launching something, they obviously don't need the money. Uh there are I don't come across many of them, but I definitely have come across. I I once had, and I won't mention names, and I'm keeping this very clean, this political reasons, but there was an economist that does no no that no longer gives talks. And but I had a group from Brazil, a group of businessmen, like 30 businessmen coming from Brazil to London to do like uh innovation, inspiration, safari of London. And they re- and the organizer really wanted to speak to uh this particular economist, and so I had to try and find a way to persuade her. But I but I also felt that I sorry her mission, I know what her mission is, and I know what her purpose in life is, and I just made sure that that was being delivered on that day. So she was able to speak to the people that had influence, um, and we facilitated that, and actually, one of the companies completely radically changed the way they think and they do, and they actually now leaders in their country in terms of purpose and um uh employee engagement. Um, they have yeah, it's incredible what they what they manage to achieve. Just this one conversation with an economist. So I I I was also very much invested in in that in facilitating that because I knew that there's change on the horizon.

SPEAKER_00

That must be just so satisfying and rewarding, that sort of when you when you when you hit the jackpot like that.

SPEAKER_01

When they say yes, it is, it's like uh it's like in like the best drug in the world. That's why I sometimes I I love this industry because you put people together and when and when the right people are in the right room, magic can happen. And it breaks my heart when it doesn't. Doesn't thank God it doesn't happen often, but um I do everything I can in my power to make sure that everyone is happy because you don't want a speaker coming away that didn't enjoy the experience. You definitely don't want an event or an audience member who didn't wasn't not engaged with the conversation. So, yeah, a lot of work um happens in the background to make sure that that that spark is there.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I hope that if that if any of your clients or future clients listening that that they're listening to what you're saying, because clearly the little black book is an awful lot bigger than than the number of artists you see or speakers you see on the website, and that I guess that's always the case. I'm and I'm mentioning, as we said, mentioning no names, but I was looking at a uh at a website the other day for for a speaker bureau, and there were hundreds, I mean literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. And I just thought, really, I'm not sure I believe that.

SPEAKER_01

Uh well the thing is it's just overwhelming, isn't it? It's impossible to, and because of there are so there are so many people, you can't even get any content on that page. They're just a sea of faces, probably incredible people on there, but of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so I want to speak to you, Deborah. I want I want to say, listen, this is what I want. You know, yeah, and and this is kind of where we're getting where we're headed with this, and this is the sort of industry, but I don't know, you tell me, because I want your expertise to come back, and I trust your expertise to do that, right?

SPEAKER_01

Maybe that overwhelm, maybe they plan, maybe that's part of the design. They plan, they design in the overwhelm so that you go to them and say, your website's too overwhelming. Who do you have that can do X, Y, and Z? Yeah. That could be part of, I mean, I that's quite clever, but I find that um I want to, I don't know, I I mean, and maybe our website's like more of an iceberg where the top is just are just people who I know will be recognized by certain industries, by by their titles, by their work, and and then we we invite people to come and like let us know what their briefs are, and free of charge, we give them a whole host of names that not even that we don't even work with exclusively, but we know that would fit perfectly. So, yeah, it's a matter of it's a it's a conversation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

And when you get a brief, Deborah, and someone comes to you and says, This is what I'm thinking, how often do you find yourself trying to shape the content a bit? I mean, yes, the there's an outline brief, right? But but do you find yourself saying, Okay, I yeah, I know what you're trying to do here, but I'm not sure that's gonna work, you should try this or just or do you do you leave it to them and the speaker, or do you do you try and sort of get in the middle of the process to make the whole thing work seamlessly as possible?

SPEAKER_01

I think I think time is also is obviously really important because if you have a lot of time, then there is the opportunity for that list to be vetted either through availability, um, budget, and so I I do want to, I I don't I I don't want to challenge for challenge sake. However, I have had, for example, we worked with Mommy, we don't just work with events, we work with a range of people who are looking for experts. It could be a PR agency, it could be a documentary team, it could be a brand looking for workshops to reinvigorate their you know their lunchtime. So, so as an example, last year we had a German team come over and they were looking for um speakers on the polycrisis. And by the end of the day, I had given them a list of scientists, artists, AI experts, um, psychologists, um, meditation teachers, just really to give them the whole circle because sometimes we just think very cerebral, but there's actually a lot of embodied knowledge that we have as humans that should be part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's very I think that's incredibly true. Um, just as an aside, when with the last time we spoke, we we we talked about um ADHD and how um neurodiversity has has um shaped the the the work that you do and what you offer. So so in order to to help you, what systems and processes have you uh have you built into the the the business to to to manage it?

SPEAKER_01

Well I've um created an incredible CRM, bespoke. Uh I can shout out to Podio for that. Really, really amazing. So it's all built around the process, like every every detail. And for me, to be fair, my first career was a business analyst. So I used to go to other parts of the bank. I used to work at Macquarie Bank in Sydney, and I would look at their business, see how I can strip out all the unnecessary tasks and also systemize as much as possible to make it kind of like human-proof. And then we'd bring it into our business and obviously optimize and make more money from it. So I take that thinking, I brought that thinking, sorry, into Propeller. And so I tried to reduce the human error as much as possible. So I systemise as much as I can, and that helps with my ADHD. So I only really do the bits that I really love, which is the client conversations, the um speaking with you know, discovering, researching, going and speaking with um people around the world. So I guess I've managed to like take all the time vampires off my table, off the table, and then just do the stuff that I love.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean I find it interesting enough. Um you're you're not the first um guest I've had who has ADHD. I spoke to a lovely man, Jason Brown, um oh, whatever, about two or three weeks ago. And we were uh we were having the very same conversation, and he said he he had struggled well, he was at at school, he was uh always known as the bad kid and and was so told by his teachers that he would never amount to anything because he was so disorganized and was always, you know, was always a bit of a uh a a Jack the Lad in class and so on and so forth. Has you know, and and now obviously he's learnt how to live with it and he's learnt how to organize his life and he's learned all these things, uh which you know I mean it's an incredible podcast, and I wish I wish everyone should listen to uh listen to it. But have you did you find it a a hindrance? Um and when did you realize, when did you know that that that you had ADHD?

SPEAKER_01

I think like many women, when you go through a certain stage in one's life, let's call it the M, it um all of a sudden all the things I've worked before no longer work. And and then you might meet another woman who is going through a similar thing or being diagnosed, and she tells you, and I you know, you're just curious because I'm a curious person, so what does that mean? And and and all of a sudden um the penny started to drop, and then I watched a whole as as you do, I watched a whole bunch of talks on ADXT, and I started to cry, and I was like, oh my god, this is me. And then when I tell people who've known me for years, they go, Of course you do, you know, like it's not it's when you start to think about the way I I talk super fast, I am not very organized, but I'm also hyper-organized when it comes to certain things, and so there's like And this is what you're saying about priority prioritizing the things that you really want to do, exactly. Yeah, and then I and everything else, just strip uh strip that away, systemize it, or just give it to someone else. Um, and also like I hate routine, but I absolutely need routine, otherwise I can't function. So I've had to learn to um and I meditate every day, um, I try to exercise every day to help uh with stress, and so yeah, I think does it increase your levels of stress?

SPEAKER_00

Because obviously you're you know, you're you're you haven't got a big team here, it's it's it's it's really you. Um I mean I know you've got some some some people to help along the way, but you know, how did how did how do you feel that um the ADHG in in terms of the the your stress levels is it is it does it increase the level of stress and and and and how do you mitigate that stress?

SPEAKER_01

I mean we do live in a world that's very neurotypical. So you are to some extent masking all the time. You're doing your best to fit into this world, not take up too much space because you might be a bit too much. Or um so I guess everyone with ADHD to some extent has a level of stress because you're constantly having to work at a level, and also you have high expectations, sometimes even perfectionism. Um so you're yeah, you've got a lot more added issues that you put on yourself that maybe someone who's neurotypical doesn't really have to have to deal with.

SPEAKER_00

Um and do you do you in terms of who who you've got around you, who I mean how how because you haven't got a large permanent team around you, but in terms of forming forming a uh I don't know, a team that works, it works for you, and therefore, once you've got those people in place, how do they buy into you, how do they buy into your culture, how do they under understand the neurodiversity, etc. etc. You know, how does that all work?

SPEAKER_01

I think they end up to be honest, probably be overwhelmed at first because I talk at like a hundred miles an hour.

SPEAKER_03

So you and me both, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So firstly they'll be overwhelmed, but then they will eventually notice that that what I'm doing is a a bit is different, it's different to other people, it's exciting, they get to learn, and I think it depends on the person. Um they end up saying, hold on, she can't do that, but I can do that. So we end up being like Lego. So they go, I let Deb do that, let her do her thing, and then she can give me, and I I love to give people autonomy. I give I I trust I because you know we've all had good and bad bosses. Come on, at this age, yeah. So um I think I just uh I I I'm the boss that I want to have, I'd like to have. So having emotional intelligence really is my main driver.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I guess that's right. And in terms of uh in terms of growing the business and and getting the voice out there, your voice out there, and so on, um in terms of business development, how how do you go about that? I mean, I would imagine it's very it's very in-person, it's very, you know, um in in touch with the people you you you you are are trying to to prospect for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well we've been we've been going for like 15 years. So we have on top of just having that you know database of of experts, but we also have relationships that have been going for a long time who kind of know exactly why they come to Propeller and they don't go somewhere else. Um but I also think that in terms of like business development, hard business development, business development, I think just using one channel it no longer works. You know, newsletters no longer just newsletters don't work. Um, just on LinkedIn takes time. It's quite a long slog, but I think the combination of two channels is where the magic happens because you kind of build that um touch point with uh you know via like email, but then you also build credibility and content and social capital online, and then they those two hopefully intersect when the when the client's ready to buy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and in terms of in terms of middleman, as it were, how how often do you find yourself stuck between end client and uh and yourself and with an agency in the middle? And and do you've do you sometimes I mean I I think and any of this has happened to me in in the past, but I think occasionally you get given a brief and you say, okay, the the speaker budget is is X or Y or whatever it might be. And obviously the agency knows nothing about speakers, so we'll ring up Propeller and say, This is what we've got, this is the budget, who have you got? I mean, that's that must be hugely frustrating for you.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's quite that's quite normal because you know, like one thing that the speaking industry does not have is this transparency or however there's a reason for that. You know, um sometimes fees are based on bandwidth. Are they, you know, are they working on a project, are they writing a book, um, what's their home life like? What's the location of the venue? What's the audience? Is it a brand? Like, there are hundreds of ways that you can like some speakers can determine their fee that way, other ones are like supermodels, and I will not get out of bed for less than 10k. So, you know, humans are different. We can't, we can't they're not pieces of Lego where they all can be, you know, put in the same place. So that's the reason why it's hard like to say that um the industry is opaque in that sense. But that's what we're here for. If this is your budget, well, I know that speaker does not accept that budget because I was the I spoke to him last year or three months ago, or I just know that you know that that fee's not that budget's not good enough. And so then that's fine, but that's my job. My job is to say yes, but and you know, yes, and here is uh another speaker who delivers on all those points and hopefully more and and and so in a way is of more value than the one that they might have just come across on LinkedIn or recommended by their boss.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I guess you know, going back to business development, you you said before that you uh have have designed your own CRM system, which uh um I mean sounds amazing. I I think I you know I'm a CRM junkie, so uh I completely get it. And and particularly, I guess, with the ADHD, having that framework, you know, that it's yours and it sits for you and you understand and it works for you. I guess that I I mean I completely get that. I'm now beginning to wonder whether I'm ADHD as well.

SPEAKER_01

Um but but in terms of I I'm not sure it's the AD, I I honestly think it's just my systems thinking and and my business analyst background. Like I am I've systemized everything to avoid mistakes. Yeah and and and then if I have to give this to someone else, which I I do, um, they can follow the plan as well. I don't have to teach them.

SPEAKER_00

So it's actually, yeah, it's not is it it's a project management software as well as a CRM as well. Okay, I love that. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And that that's so important, as you say. If everyone's singing off the same hymn sheet, but you'd be surprised how many companies I speak to who say, Oh, yeah, yeah, we we use a CRM, but we've only got one license, so only one person has it. And you go, Well, I mean, literally, what's the point of that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm gonna CRM, sorry, as is a CRM, it's uh does projects, invoices, chases, uh, contracts, legal. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it does that. And in terms of you know, the the ever everyone was talking about, and they will continue to talk about it for many years to come. I I should notice, but but artificial intelligence and you know what do you have a role for AI within Propeller or not particularly?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm a huge fan of AI to a point. I completely um one thing that I you know I've I've tested a lot of AI. Like I you know, just every day I might come, I might work between you.com, perplexity, Claude, uh, ChatGPT, Monica, Notebook LLM, like I am, you know, those things I'm and I'm also tink always tinkering with an agent here and there to see if I can do things better. Um so I can actually be of more service to my client. I know this sounds really odd, but if I can spend less time doing the the um like putting a bio together, for example, and um and I can be actually connecting the dots for them, that that for me is a saving and and time that I can spend um f going to events and fostering other relationships. So for me, AI is a great uh I think it's an incredible tool. And and I think sometimes it's easy to think, oh well, it's AI can find speakers, as as you as we've just talked about, you know, you can't.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think that's true. It can't possibly I mean yes, AI can find speakers, of course, and it probably can find speakers in budget, but if all it's doing is trawling the internet, that's not experience. I'm not buying your experience.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly, and the and sometimes the whether websites that have um who have budgets on there are charging like 50% more than they would be charging if you went if you went to their actual agent. Like I know because I've I I've obviously tried it myself, and they always go to this particular American website, and it's particularly I know for a fact this particular website adds 50% on top of the of the of the speaker fee. So um, so yeah, so I you be careful what you find online, it's not always the the the real, the the truth.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I guess it comes back to value for money as well, doesn't it? I mean, you know, because you know, speakers are by their very nature expensive, but if you're paying a chunk of money on top just for someone to book them, and and I think I guess that's what makes your business so unique, and it probably isn't completely unique in the terms of the relationships you have with the speakers and so on, but uh but I suspect it is unique in terms of the relationships you have with the clients and the speakers and the way that you put things together. But uh it but in terms of that, you're probably more able to go to someone you know well and say, listen, the client's budget is 10 grand, you know, and I know you normally charge 20, but this I think is really good for you, you know. It it the the the end game here is is is bigger than the the initial fee.

SPEAKER_01

But um, okay, yes, that is what for the relationships that I already hold, yes, that's absolutely possible, and that's um part of my role. But I also, for example, someone wants a star, or but they're on like 20 bureaus, you know. Which one actually represents them? And and and and and sometimes you might have three bureaus in in the chain. So, actually, what is the actual fee? So, this is where my experience comes in. I know how to find the actual person who represents them, their manager, and then I have a really I have a conversation with them rather than someone who's adding a hundred percent fee on top of that. So, this is where that that that experience, that's what the AI does not have this experience. It does, you know, that this is what we all bring, this is what our industry brings to the table.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and so in terms of if you see if you see someone over uh over overcharging for for for a speaker, how do you would how would you go back to the client and say, listen, you're paying the wrong amount here? Or if they're paying too much for the wrong speaker, how would you go back and say, Listen, you're paying the wrong amount, you don't want that speaker, you want this speaker?

SPEAKER_01

I would, I guess if I feel that they're overpaying, then I will find out what is the real fee. So I will either go to that speaker's PA or I'll find the like direct agent to them and sense check because you know, I don't know why people are charging what they're charging. There could be a reason, that could be the relationship they have. Um they could have increased their fees. Last year I had one speaker increase his fees by 50k. So you don't know why, you know. So for me, it's all about using that cheekiness that I have to find the what's the ultimate, what's the baseline, and then go from there. And the client can then decide if they still want to go to the other agency or or we can do it through us. But I, you know, I I'll be honest, we don't always we're not always privy if a client is speaking to two or three bureaus. I don't really know about that. That's I might find out incidentally, because a speaker might say, Oh, someone else got in touch with me about that. But yeah, that's up to the the event to to to run their business like that.

SPEAKER_00

And have you ever said no to an event?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I have I have when I if you wish. And why?

SPEAKER_00

And why much more importantly?

SPEAKER_01

I guess I've worked when you work with someone for a while, and maybe, for example, in the beginning you're you're trying to build a relationship, but they're probably asking for the impossible um or um or the or or that you'll do all this work and then eventually, oh, but I then I I one of our friends did a no, came and spoke. You know, ultimately there's a there's a certain level that you want to invest in the relationship, but um we're still having to run the business, you know, we still have to pay the bills, we still have to, so at one stage you do you have to decide for yourself, is this a relationship or is this a business relationship, or you're just giving away too much IP and you just have to, you know, nip it in the butt.

SPEAKER_00

And if you you know, as you say, you've been you've been doing propeller for 15 years now. Have you noticed there's a there's a a way in which speakers are being used by organizations, or or are you finding that that there's a whole different desire from you know, I mean I I'm thinking back to where where I first first started sort of nearly 30 years ago, in fact, 30 years ago this year, uh, in terms of setting up my business and we did speakers, but I I th I I always got the feeling it was slightly an afterthought. So do you do you think that's that's the case now, or do you feel that it that people will shape shape an event around a speaker?

SPEAKER_01

I think that maybe I think speaking has come a long way, and I think the the old talks that someone coming in with a sad story no longer is enough. People have been to conferences, they've seen Ted online, um, they you know they they've seen great talks, so the benchmark has definitely had to increase. Um I think the pandemic really shifted things because talks were being used by teams to bring everyone together when everyone was living working remotely, and and I think in a hybrid environment that is still being used, people who are in the office, people who are you know working from home, and even just lovely moments to to bring the team together that because I I do generally believe that speakers shouldn't just inform, they should also they should also educate and um entertain. So it's also a lovely moment for everyone to have something to talk about later. And uh so I I think they they serve quite a few, I tick quite a few boxes. Um and also I think that one thing I have noticed probably in the last few years, the kind of the future has shifted. Whereas before the future could be in 10, 15, 30 years, now the future could be anywhere between three months and three years. So that has really shifted. Um completely understandably, um, ROI is really important. So I whereas before we could leave the audience to connect the dots for themselves, but now you know takeaways have to be quite imp quite implicit. Um, ideally, even with something, people can take a picture and walk away with that picture because they would have absorbed so much content that you want something they can remember later. Um so yeah, there's definitely more prescription when it comes to talks, but that's not a bad thing. Um, especially when you're someone like me who is who is bringing in outside thinking, I think it's my job to make sure that everyone understands each other.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I th I I think that's right. And just going back to that point about about learning something and and uh from the speaker, I also think that and I I think this is a relatively new thing, or it's not a relatively new thing in terms of people who know it for years, but they've actually put their finger on it, is is this idea of storytelling and that that that everything within within you know everything from your marketing to your sales to to uh having a uh talk on on stage or whatever is is all about um storytelling. And and I'm I I'm a big fan of Michael Haig, who I'm sure um you know, and I love the way that he went from uh you know Hollywood script writer to you know this this great you know inspirational um storyteller. And I watch a lot of his stuff, and I and I think people are cottoning onto that, don't you?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. Um and this is where, for example, where that that merger between creativity and business. So, for example, we we we kind of work quite strongly with business uh events about business, technology, and media slash marketing. And if you're creating a new business model, it still needs to tell a story, right? Because you're you need to convince your stakeholders, your investors, um, your um HR team, onboarding people, everything is about like telling stories of the brand. Um, media events are always trying to find new ways to communicate, um, and tech is trying to do both, trying to create new business models and also tell new stories. So, yeah, storytelling I think is the foundation of all the people that we work with.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's right. And so um so looking ahead um for you and Propella, what's um what what do you think you would like to leave as your legacy, we know, in terms of you know, what what would you love to have your impact be on the events world?

SPEAKER_01

I guess I guess I I know from you know starting this business out 15 years ago, there were firstly we were the only ones really representing TED speakers, right? And then we were the only ones uh representing artists and designers and creative people in a business context. And so I guess it's for propeller to be known that we're always kind of ahead of the curve in so many ways. Um and that would that and I think yeah, I think that's very simple legacy, but that that that's I'd be really happy with that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I I think that's that's that's that's a great legacy to leave. Uh and and and I think it's difficult, you know. Uh I I watch my children now who are in their early 20s and and so many of their friends are uh are are struggling struggling to get jobs and struggling to to to make an impact in in this world. Um what advice do you think you'd give you yourself as a 21-year-old today?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so if you're willing to stay at home a bit longer, I think you know, internships, getting working with other businesses, getting inside there, understanding uh like in the beginning is really crucial, you know, because there's so much competition out there. Unfortunately, that's where uh you know it it kind of works. I know that's not great because it's quite a privileged position to be where you can stay, live at home, and work for free. I completely understand that. But hopefully, industry should also appreciate that we need to pay young people, and if you want to have a pipeline of of people to actually come and work for us, we also need to invest time into support the uh everyone. I would say go and learn everything you can about AI. Um, I would also say really um. Your soft skills, communication skills are really important. Um and go do and and keep and keep your and keep drawing and keep doing all the fun stuff, all the stuff that makes us human, keep doing those bits because the machines can take certain jobs away. But if you're the more human, it sounds really weird, the more human you are, the better, but you know what I mean? It's those things.

SPEAKER_00

I know exactly what you mean. And I think that's I think we were discussing this on uh on on the podcast, Richard, Mike, and myself the other day about the fact that you know that that a lot of and I'm not gonna say kids because I think that's that's an unfair description, but uh, but a lot of people have been known to, you know, in situations where that to get through to the interview process, you have to do a CV or you have to write this or what and they're relying too heavily on AI. And going back to what we were saying about storytelling, it is storytelling, it is it's telling your story and why your story is interesting and why they should employ you, and and and so on and so forth. You know, I I don't know. I uh one of the things that I was very interested in doing seven, eight, nine, ten years ago, was learning how to to be a speaker because I thought it would it would help in other areas of my life. And I guess in a funny sort of way, that's what the young of the day should should be thinking about, is is don't literally picture themselves as as a speaker, but be able to imagine yourself on a stage and say, Okay, I tell my story, what makes me interesting?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's even more important now that we use technology so much that we're losing the skill to communicate. I know that happens with myself, and and I would even do a speaking course only because firstly you're learning, stay curious. I mean, you should you should forever be learning, you shouldn't really just finish uni and say, That's it, done, I'm done with learning.

SPEAKER_03

You never sell learning.

SPEAKER_01

But but I think the presenting skills are you know, you you know, sales, it's all about presenting. Um, marketing, you've got to sell your ideas. Um, if you're in business development, you've got to speak you know, sell your story, sell your products. If you're a tech founder, you also gotta sell your vision. So selling is actually one skill that we all need, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just I just totally agree with you. And it's and and and being a great salesman is it's telling stories, and it's a fact. So listen, just before we finish, um we're gonna go through a rap rapid fire round. So um uh just to learn a bit more about Deborah Burns and who she actually is underneath the skin. So um the most influential person in your life, and it doesn't have to have to be at work, could be your father, could be whoever.

SPEAKER_01

Well, funny enough you say that, my mother actually, she was quite a trailblazer, uh immigrated from Uruguay during the dictatorship, kind of like what's happening right now in the US. But anyway, let's not get political. Um so then um, so yeah, had to move to Australia and then came from a very comfortable, she had her own kindergarten in in Uruguay, had to go to Australia with uh had to sell all her wedding presents, uh, she'd only be married nine months, um, and then land there and be cleaning toilets and working in factories and everything to kind of get going, and then ended up like top ten Tupperware seller in Australia and had her own travel agency, and she's my biggest champion. So, yeah, I would say my mum. And it sounds really no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00

I think that's great. She sounds like the most amazing woman. I know you you had over um over for Christmas as well, which she didn't appreciate the temperature drop from Uruguay, Uruguay to the UK.

SPEAKER_01

I pulled her out of Uruguayan heat and brought her into uh uh let's just say five degrees five degrees in she was one thing she was looking forward to snow, but she she just she only saw the snow outside of Gatwick. That's as close as she got to snow.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's fair enough. That's fair enough. She can she can come back, she'll have plenty more opportunities. Um so one idea, book, or podcast you wish more event people knew about?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, event people. Oh, I I would just say, um, I would actually just say Trevor Noah, I everyone knows him for knows him for his comedy, but actually he and and late his late night show program, which uh you know ran for a few years, but actually his podcast is so incredible. He has this kind of funny, smart, warm, empathetic um way of thinking. He's also like a really good conversationalist and brings in ideas from different perspectives. He's obviously South African, so he has that you know non-imbedocommer's global minority perspective. So I would I if I mean if I were someone that was starting that podcast from the beginning, I'd be so jealous because that's exactly who I'd love to be right now.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well, yeah, that's a very, very good tip indeed. Um, your number one movie.

SPEAKER_01

That's so hard. I found that impossible to think about, but I just had to go off the data because that's kind of like that's all I can really work with. So if I just if I had to say what's the number one film I've seen more often, uh, and I guess it's because you might catch it on, you know, going switching between channels, or um, I would probably say Shoshank Redemption. It's it's the one that I just stopped to watch. I don't care where it is in the film, I will stop and watch it. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00

Andy Dufresne. I just I love it. It's one of it's um, you know, it's one of the those films that was a massive box office flop. I mean a massive flop, and then only discovered itself when it got to streaming and um and DVD, but what a what a great movie! Um, you know, Morgan Freeman, fantastic, absolutely amazing movie, great cast as well, actually. Um, the most unexpectedly brilliant speaker you've ever booked.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so this one, Mo Goat, which um we work with him now. So that was kind of like this one event that he so first time I worked with him, so in case people don't know him, he's a former chief business officer at um at Google X, and now he's an author with a mission to make a billion people happy.

SPEAKER_03

Happy, amazing.

SPEAKER_01

So, anyway, anyway, so you obviously know him. He's the only speaker I've ever known to be briefed by an organizer, be given a time, like what's the timeline, and then just free freestyle on stage. And really, yes, no slides, just to I need to go from A to B, and he'll he'll just take the audience there and on the dot finish the talk.

SPEAKER_00

Vanov, I do know him. I've listened, I've listened to quite a lot of uh uh of uh of Mo on various. I mean, again, I listened to him um on Diary of CEO, the you know the emergency podcast edition, which was just amazing about AI and about how AI could learn and so on.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this was this was about the future of AI.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that when that was a couple of years ago, I think it was now, but even so that was just incredible. And then also about making a billion people happy, you know, that the you know, when he was working for Google X and he was being paid an awful lot of money by Google X and he was driving his car out of the garage one day and he collected he collected cars and he collected really supercars, and he said the the fact is money is nothing because you're but so when you're sitting behind the wheel of a Ferrari driving down the road, you don't know which car you're driving, you're just driving.

SPEAKER_01

And I just thought, yeah, fair's that's really I mean that came from a very tragic story. His his son passed away, so that also you know made him you know have a real perspective shift. Um, so yeah, he is a master storyteller. We're talking about storytelling, he is incredible.

SPEAKER_00

So I totally agree with you. Um, the small mountain you were down, so things the little little tiny weenie things that drive you bunkers.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I guess having someone uh like content at an event where it's all style and no substance, you know, and and sometimes I I completely appreciate because you might have a sponsor that you need to place and things like that, but I guess I I every inch of content for me is is is gold and it's um an opportunity to tell a story. So when someone has to give that away, I I yeah, it does make me uh twitch.

SPEAKER_00

I can understand that. Okay, your most ADHD work habit um that actually helps you.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, when I go into a rabbit hole, oh my god, when I'm you know got my teeth into a topic, uh, I will forego eating, I will forego inboxes, phone calls, I and it can be not a great thing. I can I've missed uh quite a few meetings because even the notifications that are there to stop me, I may I I ignore. So yeah, that's definitely my it's it's it's it's a curse, but also a beautiful thing to have.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I get that. Um uh hidden talent. Do you have a hidden talent?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think that in a parallel, in a quantum parallel universe, I am working as a house flipper. So I love property. So I would probably like some people like are on Instagram, on Facebook. I'm more likely to find you're probably likely to find me on the right move. Like that's so that I really I love property and and you know finding diamonds and seeing potential, and and I've actually sold, yeah. When I I whenever I sell a property, it's always you know more than ex much more than expected.

SPEAKER_00

It's more difficult to do it nowadays, I suspect.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely. The system has changed, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um dogs or cats?

SPEAKER_01

So I admire cats and how independent and easy they are to take care of. So I really I really appreciate that and how their subtle nature is something you have to live with in order to really see. But then you can't, you can't, you know, the the the abundant personality of a dog, the fact that they make you they make you go outside. So as a companion, I would say dogs on balance, I'd say dogs.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I was bitten by our cat over Christmas and and got cellulitis, so I'm rather off cats at the moment. Um, which three people would you like to have to dinner and why?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I you know, having said what I've just I've just said for the last half an hour, I can't just have three. So I I I've thrown in an extra one just in case.

SPEAKER_03

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01

So I would say, firstly, you always need someone that that will firstly be unforgettable, and also someone that the next day they will speak to their friends or WhatsApp or whatever and say, you will not guess who I sat next to yesterday. So I would say Neil Harbison, which is the world's first cyborg. He um was born colour blind, and so and is an artist, and he actually asked a surgeon to insert an antenna in his head and so that he can see the world through sound. So even though he can't see colour, he can hear colour. He's a lovely guy, he's really um self-deprecating and very um yeah, really lovely. So I think he'd be a great person that um and he's also very open about um you know his condition, so really a great storyteller as well, very funny. So yeah, great guy. Um then Trevor Noah, of course, because he's funny, curious, and really able to kind of pull people into the conversation. Um, then I'd have to say Esther Perell, who's kind of like the number one psychologist in the world, and she can kind of call people on their BS, you know, and get people to have genuine conversations about themselves. So I and so she will um and obviously share convers share insights into conversations with clients. So I think she'd be a great person. And then you you do need someone that is just the most cleverest person on the table, and that would have to be Hannah Fry.

SPEAKER_00

Glimey. I mean, how how many more clever people do you want around your table? Sorry, who was the last one?

SPEAKER_01

Hannah Fry. Okay, yes, so mathematician. I mean, I love her storytelling as well. Her voice, I use her podcast to kind of like rock me to sleep at night. So yeah, she's a brilliant I love her as well. She's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00

I guess I should have expected if I was asking someone who's who's whose whose day job is finding incredible speakers around the world, I should have guessed that your your dinner party would be a little more highbrowed than some of the dinner parties we've had in the last three months. But there we go.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

That's really good. Um take note, all previous guests. This was a proper dinner party.

SPEAKER_02

I can't help but Q8, even the even the dinner table.

SPEAKER_00

I love it, Deborah. Um, and finally, if you weren't running a business, what would you be doing?

SPEAKER_01

I'd be buying and selling vintage furniture.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I do love it.

SPEAKER_00

Does that really does that really float your boat?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it does. I love vintage. Anything vintage, anything with the story, anything that has patterna. Um, yes, I like, you know, uh flea market, go to going to flea markets. I don't have a car, but I'm glad I don't. Otherwise, my house will be packed with more stuff. Um I and yeah, so yeah, I I even once had an addiction to vintage tea sets, even though I don't like tea or coffee.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, no, I love I yeah, uh vintage furniture is like my passion.

SPEAKER_00

Um, Deborah Burns, it has been a complete pleasure to have you on the Event Matters podcast. Um, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

No, thank you, David. Really, honestly, it'd be really lovely, and hope we keep connecting after this.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Bye.