Matrescence, Maternity Leave & Returning to Work as a Mum with Emma Ford

In this episode of Unshakeable Talks, Katy sits down with Motherhood Empowerment Coach and Return to Work specialist Emma Ford to talk about what really happens when ambitious women become mothers and then have to navigate going back into the workplace. They talk about everything from matrescence and postnatal depression to the loneliness of new motherhood, the messy reality of UK maternity policy, and the pressure women feel to ‘have it all’ at home and at work, often with very little honest support from either side.

Key Takeaways:

Motherhood changes your identity, not just your diary.
Becoming a mum isn’t a quick life admin update; it’s a hormonal, emotional and identity shift (matrescence) that reshapes your priorities, capacity and sense of self - whether you expected it or not.

Honest conversations reduce loneliness more than perfect support.
Even with more podcasts, coaches and communities than ever, many mothers still feel lonely because we’re censoring our real experiences instead of saying, “this is hard and here’s what it actually looks like for me.”

You can’t project‑manage your way out of the hard bits.
No amount of lists, classes or colour‑coded calendars will fully prepare you for how motherhood feels, and trying to optimise every moment often just adds pressure instead of creating space.

Returning to work needs more than a date in the calendar.
A welcome back email and a couple of KIT (keeping in touch) days are not a re‑onboarding plan; women need clarity, realistic expectations, and a space to rebuild confidence if they’re going to stay and thrive rather than quietly leave.

‘Having it all’ has to be redefined on your terms.
For some women that’s the corporate ladder, for others it’s flexible work, entrepreneurship or a complete pivot - but it only works when you’re willing to be honest about your capacity, your season and what you’re prepared to compromise on.

If you enjoyed this episode, you can connect with Emma on Instagram @emmafordcoaching 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Untaker for Talks with me, Katie Schweiger. This is not just another podcast. This is your girl's chat for business women. I'm going to speak to women in business, and we're not just gonna have a normal conversation. We're speaking about what it really takes to build a business, to scale a business, why we are doing business, and what are the real challenges? What are the things no one actually talks about loud? What are the things which are holding us back and what are the things which are really driving us to do what we're doing? So I believe running a business as a woman isn't harder, but it is different. So it's time we actually start talking about it. Let's get into it. On today's episode of the Unshakable Talks, I'm speaking to Emma, and she's maternal return-to-work coach, and she's helping women to take that step back into work after maternity leave. But she's not only doing this, she's also helping companies to put the right procedures in place to help women to make that transition easier. Welcome to the Unshakable Talks, Emma. I'm so excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

So our conversation is going to be resonating with so many listeners today because you really specialize your coaching to helping women go back to work after the maternity break.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Tell me about it, why you decided to go into this work. I mean, I know it, but tell our listeners, what was your motivation? Because you're coming from a culprit background, you were like um quite strategic driven, structure driven. So, what made you decide to do this now?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, so I had been I well, I've been in corporate since I was 18, quite a long time. Um, and I always felt like the need to strive and get the next promotion, and that was really my kind of trajectory, I guess. Um fell in love, got married, and then two weeks after getting married, I found out I was pregnant, and it was a very exciting time, and I was still doing my corporate job, and I still I had my coaching business on the side, which I'd focused on a lot of corporate burnout because that is something that I have had experience and felt that a lot of women do tend to go through. Yeah, and so I naively thought I would have the baby and still be Emma, corporate Emma, who would still want the promotions and still want to work full like full-time. Um, and then when I had my lovely little girl in 2024, I think the reality was shit. Um, and I think a lot of women who have been in the corporate background feel very much the same. We go through this massive shift in motherhood called matrescence that's now being widely spoken about.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

So, what is matrescence? Because I know what it is, but tell our listeners what it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

So, matrescence is a word that defines the hormonal shift that we go through as women when we become mothers. Um, it's very similar to a shift called adolescence, which we all experience. Um, but when you become a mum, we go through another hormonal shift, which is matrescence in itself. And for me, having that um word basically cemented that oh, this is normal. And I think a lot of women feel this shift, we don't really talk about it, and I was like, right, okay, well, I want to learn more, and being in the personal development like yourself, like I think we have that drive to understand more, work out what's going on, and I think it was not until I would say maybe six months into my motherhood journey that I started to have this seed of there's a real gap in the market here. Why aren't we talking? Why aren't we supporting women going through this motherhood change? Because as a society, we're we're sold this dream that we can have it all, and yet you have a baby and you're still expected to have it all, but there's no real support there. So I started to pivot my business, and when I was looking to return back to work myself, I think that is when the penny really dropped. I was uh quite shocked how little support there was for women like going back to work. Um, but I think there's a real need from businesses to support women coming back into work because there is a lot of otherwise they end up losing like leaving. Um, and from my experience, I kind of rocked up had my keeping in touch days or kit days, and was kind of left to fend for myself, and there was no real acknowledgement that I had changed as a woman and the business had completely changed, but there was no kind of like gelling, so to speak, and I felt really unsupported, and you know, I'm still doing a bit of corporate stuff now, but I I sat there and I was just like, Wow, like there needs to be a conversation about this, so that is really where it has led me.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

So let's unwind this a little bit because we jumped a lot of steps ahead. So you're coming from a corporate background, you've done what um society deems to be the normal pathway for a woman, you get married, you're you have a relationship, you have children, you find yourself in um obviously that stops your career. Let's be let's be frank and honest here. It does stop your career having a child. Um, so but obviously it's also an extremely exciting time. But culprit Emma, strategist Emma, being uber prepared, Emma, you've been hugely in project management. So you you um managed to shit out of everything within your life before. Now you become a mum and you went into this journey thinking, oh, that's gonna be a piece of cake because I did it, yeah. I've organised like hell and back.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Oh, I've organized calendars for 20 odd people, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

So surely that little little something which I've just buffed can't be the issue. So you find yourself then finding out A, I don't feel the way I thought I would feel.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Um, and that's not to say that you don't love your child, you absolutely I know for fact you you absolutely love and adore your child, and we all do, but you rightly said it the whole hormonal change is something well, it's been a while for me since I had a baby. So back in the days, it was definitely not spoken about. Of course, pulse nature depression has been around, but still not spoken about. Nowadays we have much more of a conversation about this, which is great. But did you anticipate or knew about these this hormonal change?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I didn't, um, and as you say, I project managed the shit out of everything. Um, my husband takes the piss out of me because I have endless to-do lists, like I am one of those organized freaks. Um that's why we connect. That's that's why exactly that's why we do connect. And I think for me, I had read all the books. I had read and I'd done all the classes, and so I felt really confident going into the birth, and I did have a positive birth. And again, that's not something else that we don't speak about. And it was not until I think I was very vulnerable and started having a conversation with my other mum friends that had kids around the same age that we all went, shit, this is hard. Like, why is no one talking about it? Do you feel like this? Yes, I feel like this. Why like and it was all kind of like behind closed doors? And I think as women, we are kind of told to behave a certain way and to not speak up and to not share because that's not the right thing. And I think for me, I was like, why aren't we talking about this? I used to make a joke with other mum friends who'd be like, Oh yeah, like the birth was amazing, blah blah blah. And then when you go, Oh, my third trimester, I was exhausted, I was ready to help. And they go, Yeah, I forgot to tell you about that bit. And you're like, Why aren't we having these open and honest conversations? And I know I've had conversations before where people have gone, yeah, but if you knew the truth, would you have really done it? Yeah, I would. I think it's it's more about having that open and honest conversation and being prepared a little better, I think would help.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

I think what helps is that it makes it normal. Yes. Because I think what we women find ourselves in a lot in general is that we think it's just us. Yeah, we are lone in this, and that loneliness factor is a huge piece of my work, and it's something I'm personally really passionate about. Um, and I think speaking about it, which is definitely done more nowadays, yeah. I still think in a very censored way. I still think we are quite apprehensive about being truthfully and honest um about our own experience or how we feel about the whole aspect of motherhood.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

To downplay a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

But there was also part of me who now, and I'm coming from both sides. Um, back in the days, it was definitely not spoken about. Um definitely grew up with well, my mum did it, my grandma did it. That's just what women do.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yeah, get on with it.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

It's just get on with it. Um, I didn't plan my pregnancy, so I always wanted children. I was told I can't have children. So for me, having a child actually was a total blessing. So I had a brilliant pregnancy, everything was great. I had a horrendous long birth. We're now. Oh my god, I still had a good birth, there was no complications or anything like this. Um for me, thinking back, I definitely had post-natal depression. I was never diagnosed, it was just never an option because I just carried on because that's what needed to be done. I was lucky enough when I was pregnant, I wasn't in work. I say this now. Back then, actually, when I found out I was pregnant, I had my dream jobs uh lined up. I was supposed to be starting two weeks after, and I obviously couldn't take this job because I just found out I was pregnant. So there was this aspect of being devastated about this.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Can I ask why you didn't take the job?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Because I tell you why, because legally I understand I could have taken a job. I I don't have to declare that I'm pregnant, um, but morally it doesn't sit right with me. Yeah, fair on a moral level, I couldn't do that. Yeah, I knew, and even at the time I wasn't in business, I didn't understand business really well. But even at the time, I morally could not put this knowingly on this employer because the role I was um offered was uh I would have had to travel a lot, it was an international kind of it was for a uh TV company, it was something um I've never wanted, so to speak, but when I had the option, it was my dream.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

And I could I couldn't put this on them. I didn't think it was fair morally, I couldn't justify this.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

And do you think a lot of women are like that?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I actually don't think a lot of women are like it. I think there are well, actually, I can't say no or yes. I don't know. I haven't spoken enough to women about things like this. I think we're not honest about our honest opinion about this, so it's very hard to kind of determine are a lot of women like this. I think a lot of women don't know probably their legal rights or the aspects of the legal system, um, and therefore probably not consciously making this decision than taking the job. But I do think a lot of women would have taken the job just to get another couple of months of income coming in. Yeah, and I think I think And the maternity leave and all and all of this, um, the benefits. So I think that's where I stand on this. No way it's right or wrong, just for me personally, I couldn't take this job. So I was lucky not to have to work while I was pregnant. Um, so I've never had this transition period where I had to go back to work. I immediately went into entrepreneurship when I needed to for myself to work. But coming back to your uh to your journey, obviously, you did your maternity leave. I know that many women don't take their full maternity leave because obviously various reasons, one of being financial.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

I think the maternity leave and pay it is not great for the UK, let's say absolutely not. I think I'm quite happy to disclose that I got six weeks full play full pay and then I was on statutory. Um so I was I was very fortunate enough that my husband and I I say we had savings, we'd just had a massive wedding. Um we were in a fortunate position where I could take ten months off, and I know that uh some women don't take as long off, and I think we've we've had discussions off camera where women have had six weeks off, and if you have a C-section, that is your recovery.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Um, so I I think more can be done, and I know more is trying to be done, but I think a lot of women maybe naively have their baby think they're gonna be fine, and you don't know what complications come. Like I genuinely thought I would be absolutely fine. Um, I was I think I was probably six, maybe eight months into my journey when I was then diagnosed with postnatal depression. Something wasn't right. And I remember chatting to my husband about it, and I was just like, I just don't feel like me. You know, it's it's been six months or it's been eight months, but I just I don't know what's wrong, and I had therapy and I had tried everything, and then I ended up taking a very light antidepressant, and the clouds lifted, and I felt great, but again, for me, I I felt like I had to censor that part of my journey because I had a lovely pregnancy, I had a lovely 11-day late elective C-section because my baby was so comfy and me. It was a joke, but I again it was almost like I found that real struggle of why am I censoring myself? Like, I think we need to be open and honest, and you know, I I felt at the time when I was going through my pregnancy, it was a lot of a badge of honour if we suffered. And so, you know, I have friends who did have very traumatic births, and I'm not downplaying that, and I know the effect it's had, but for me, I felt like I couldn't share my positive experience. And again, like we all have our own struggles and we all have our own journeys that we go on, and I wanted to create a space for women to share, to be open and honest, and going back to work is one of those big milestones that is really bloody scary. You've you've been at home with a baby doing a completely different job for however many weeks or months, to then kind of go back to a job or completely change your career is really nerve-wracking. And I found like my corporate, let's let's call it my corporate hat, my corporate body, my confidence had completed completely shaken. And I think for me, I was like, if I had someone in my corner that I could have an hour a week with to talk through any challenges that I was facing, and to have almost like a cheerleader to be like, you can do this. I think my journey going back to the workplace would have been completely different.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

So you on the back of this obviously created this person, you are this person for the client you're working with. So tell me the average journey or the when when a woman comes to you, because I would like to think a with anything, if you engage in therapy, coaching, whatever, whatever it is, there needs to be um you need to come to a point of realization that something needs to change for you. And I think this is a whole other subject. Um, we haven't got enough time to talk about this, but you have to get to this point, don't you? And especially when it comes back to going to work, going to work is not um a choice for many people, especially women. Nowadays it is a must.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

It is a must with child care for a lot for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

So it's not even the case that we can say, okay, I thought I can manage, but actually I struggle, I can't manage, so I'm not going to go back to work. So the way the system works in the UK, and I can say this without getting political, in Germany it works completely different. So I would have been able to stay off, I believe, three years.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

On statutory maternity pay, so it wouldn't have been replacing my salary, but I would have been able to stay off until my child would have had a legal entitlement to a kindergarten place, yeah. Which makes a transition period so much easier, doesn't it? Um over here it's not like this. Um I never experienced it from a point of a mum, but I know from a point of being an employer.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

So when women come to you and say, Emma, I need help, I need to transition back to the workplace. What do they actually need help with? And how can you help them?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

So I think a lot of it is clarity. I think there's unsaid pressure. Um, you know, I've spoken to women who are like, Oh, I feel like I need to go back full-time, I don't know what I'm entitled to. So we work together to then work and form a strategic plan so that they can kind of go back in on their kit days and understand what is feasible and what isn't feasible, flexible working. Um, and then I have women who are so ready to go back and so confident, but they just want that space for themselves to reintegrate and take their mum. I mean, our mum hats are never off, let's be honest. But it's almost shedding that a little bit to kind of go right, okay, how can I now focus on myself and create in that space? Um, and that's something that we do tend to work together with. Um, as I find that a lot of mums, I feel like we put ourselves at the bottom of the list, it's quite natural for us to do so. So, me creating this space means that they are starting to re-prioritize themselves and have that plan going back into feeling like they can do it and have the confidence that they once did and know how to navigate that.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

But how does this translate actually in the day-to-day of working life? Because um I can resonate with a confidence piece, and this is a hugely important part you're doing the work you're doing with uh your women. But how does this actually translate into their day-to-day within work? Because I believe it's you can be the most confident and most prepared person, yeah, but entering a situation you're entering, i.e., going back to work, a situation you can't control. There are so many aspects which are coming in, and curve pulls or or whatever, however you want to call it being thrown your way. So, how how would that work you're doing with them actually translate into a tangible practical day-to-day for them going back to work?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

I think it's relieving the expectation. I think as a mum myself and as a perfectionist, yeah, and I know that you can resonate with that. We put so much pressure on everything being perfect and it needs to be right, and I think actually working with me, I try to remove that expectation or lower the expectation and say that good enough is perfectly acceptable. I think having my own experience, I can kind of give good examples where you know I've had a full day in the office, and then the nursery called to tell me that my my little one's got a temperature. Um, and it's always the mum that they call her, right? Yeah straight away. Yeah. Um, they have my husband's number, but still. Um, and again, it's just understanding the default parent and just managing those expectations. I think you know, we're in a society with social media where we're seeing these lovely highlight reels of someone's life of they get up at 4 a.m. and they they journal before their baby wakes up. And actually, if your baby's not sleeping, I guarantee you're gonna want another couple of hours in bed.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Absolutely, and no one is freaking journaling before the baby wakes up.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And there's a time and place for journaling, let me say that. But what I'm struggling with is where I'm seeing everyone being like, oh, just journal your feelings. And I'm like, as a mum, we don't have time to journal. Like I'm lucky if I can breathe for 10 minutes at the end of the day. But again, it is just working with those women in terms of well, what what would a day look like for you and what would be a good day in terms of achieving? And it might be that you know, if they're going into the office getting themselves a hot coffee, I know we were talking off camera, like having a hot coffee without my lovely 20-month year old like running around is a dream for me. Yeah, um, so yeah, it is a creating those expectations and and moving into what you can achieve and having it all and and you know, we've spoken about having it all, it looks completely different to when I was 18 going into the workplace and being like, Oh, I want to have the big shiny car and the big shiny promotions and all of the money, etc. Now, for me, having it all is being able to go and pick my little one up from nursery or dropping her off and You know, spending time with you on the on the sofa today.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

But would you say, and I I completely agree with you on this, like having it all looks completely different to and success is defined by us individually. It is like it's completely different for each of us. But would you say that women entering back the workforce, there's a lot of pressure on them being put on them by their colleagues, their employer, their settings?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

I think it's both. I think there's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves, but I do think there is maybe an unsaid expectation or assumption where you're coming back into the workplace, amazing. You're still going to be readily available, still working on the hours, and that's not the case. And so, you know, the other side of my business is helping corporate businesses support these women back into the workplace as best as possible. Um, and what that might look like, it might be that, you know, I have corporate clients where I will say to them, I'm not available from the hours of three till five because I'm doing nursery pickup. And you know, it's understanding boundaries again. I think that's a big piece on both parties because you know, I know businesses still need to run, but again, it's just having that expectations and realigning those what those expectations are because yeah, I'm not as readily as available as I previously was.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Um you're making a very valid point, and I know you know where this conversation is going. Because I'm coming from um, and uh it's something I don't really speak about often because I know how it's being perceived by other women, my opinion on this, but I'm still gonna say it because it's all about the authenticity. But I hear you what you say, and when you say you put boundaries down with your clients that you're not available between the hours of the school pickup, you can do this because you have your own business.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

In an employment situation, if you as a woman go back into work um to your old job, yeah, you obviously expect your old salary, you expect your hours back, the same hour. Unless obviously let's go from this scenario. If you're going back and say, okay, I would like to go down to part-time, that's a different story. Yeah, you obviously acknowledge my availability isn't the same, I can't see myself in a full-time position anymore. The corporate ladder I always wanted to climb is not something I want to do now that I'm a mum. And good on you, fair enough. That acknowledgement and expectation is there. However, I feel well, I know a lot of women go back into the workplace expecting to be treated exactly the same way than they were before. Yeah, but then you just said we are not having the same capacity, the availability, we can't show up the same way because we are mums. We're getting those phone calls uh from the nursery when our baby has a has a fever, and that is a fact. So, as an employer, why do I have to give you the same thing you had before when you didn't come with those little challenges?

SPEAKER_01 25:15

You mean children are challenges?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I think I think I think children are a beautiful thing. I had I had I I'm a mum myself, um, but from a uh employer's point of view, yeah, absolutely. I think employee and I had a business where only employed females. Yeah. So no, actually, that's not true. I had one man on the team, but I only employed females, so I'm not someone who doesn't employ females because they can get pregnant or anything like this, but it does come with unique challenges, and I think there is often, especially for smaller businesses, like larger corporations also have the financial means behind it to put maybe things in place, yeah. But the average business in the UK isn't a large corporation, so I know for a fact there is no money in businesses to have a maternity officer or a special HR person. Like I was the HR person in my business, I was everything we are the HR people in our businesses now, but and I think it's about also coming into back into your workplace with the wrong expectations, and to me it's almost about being fair about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

And I think there is a real challenge about being fair. Um, don't get me started on the gender pay gap and all of that stuff, but that by the by, I'm not saying you need to hire a maternity officer. I mean, that's great if you've got the financial means to do so. Um, I actually saw a post the other day that said I think matrescence is 10 years behind where it could be. Yeah. We had similar situations with menopause, right? We weren't talking about menopause 10 years ago. Now look at us like it's now coming into businesses. So I definitely feel like maybe in 10 years' time the landscape for matrescence is gonna look different. With that said, the whole point of me coming into corporate businesses is to understand what their reboarding process looks like for these women. And you know, I've spoken to some businesses and I'm like, okay, cool. So what's your onboarding process for when you have a new employee, right? And they go, Oh, well, we have a buddy system and we have training and we have all of this stuff, and they list all of this, and I'm like, that's incredible. What's your reboarding process in terms of bringing a new parent back into the business? And they sit there and they're like, Oh, we haven't thought about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

They just naturally expect them just to come back and so you ignore the 10 months that we're just gonna hide the 10 months that you've been off.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

And and I think for me it's I'm not saying it needs to be drastic changes, I'm just saying let's be a bit human and a little bit share a little bit more empathy to being like, okay, well, what does this person need in order to have a successful journey back into the workplace? And again, I think it's an open and honest conversation as a business in terms of what their needs are, and as the woman coming back into the workplace, what their needs are and finding a happy medium, and it might be in some cases there is no compromise, there's no happy medium, and they have to part ways, and that's fine, but I'm just saying we need to start having these conversations because these conversations aren't happening, and a lot of women are leaving the workplace, which I find really frustrating because so many years have we been trying to get our feet at the table, yeah, and yet just having a baby means that we're now being disregarded.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

But do you feel I had a conversation with um someone else on the podcast um about this that we women tend to lead our businesses with too much emotion, and I definitely have been guilty of this. Uh, I think it can't be helped 100%, but I think it's an extremely valid point. I think there comes a point where business is business, like it's not it's not a hobby, it's not like a fun activity. The numbers have to stack up, and decisions have to be made, um, certain processes have to be put in place in order for those numbers to actually work in the business favor, and therefore we need to make decisions not with our emotions but with the logical strategic brain. And when it comes to motherhood and working, I think this is where it becomes extremely tricky. And me being a woman and among myself, I've always struggled with this, but I also know from a business perspective, it has impacted my business negatively a lot many times. If I wouldn't have, if I would have been able to plug out my emotions better, I would have definitely made much more smarter business decisions over the years. So it's a little bit a catch-22, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

It is a catch-22. And I was gonna pose a question back to you if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Would you say, in terms of the business, and it's probably gonna come across a little bit wrong? No, no, no. Go ahead. Were you harsher, do you think? Because and and what I'm trying to say is that you mean to my to my employees? Yeah, but I think also the pressure that we we as women f face. I've worked in female-led businesses and I've found that they've almost stepped in my shoes, have done it before, but they've gone to the extreme where you know I've worked with incredible women who have literally come back to work after six weeks and I've just powered through because they feel that they have a point to prove.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

The answer to this is absolutely not. I was the other way around, and that was the issue.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I wasn't harsher. I'm much harsher now, if you want to use harsh as a as a word, but I exclusively work with women. I'm creating spaces particularly for women for that reason because I think sometimes you need a little bit of a slap as well to kind of realize what is actually really going on, because I'm like I'm a huge supporter of women, and I and I understand all of those struggles for firsthand, and yes, there is a time for this, but sometimes I also think we as women have to manage our expectations because there will be people who will say, and I'm not one of them, but there will be people who will be saying, You made a choice to have a child, yeah. That's not for me as an employer to fix. So if you're coming back to work, and obviously your availability will be different, and that's absolutely fine. But if you're coming back to work to me wanting exactly what you had before, without providing exactly what you provided before, this is where there's an issue.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, and I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

That's my honest opinion.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

No, no, no, and I think it's a really strong opinion, and I think there's a lot of women who I have been working with who are managing their expectations, and I think it is the minority, and again, it will probably be the minority that will take the piss and go, I expect everything, and only turn up half of the time, but again, I think it's just about having these open conversations and setting the expectations on both sides. Because I think you know, I have gone back into businesses and they're like, Well, we expected. I mean, one of my favourite was I went back in on a kit day and they were like, How was your break? And I was like, My break, my break. I've had 10 months off doing a completely different job, and again, it's just a case of well, let's have human conversations.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

What would you be happy with them to say to you? I'm just wondering now, like what would be a nice response?

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I think it was just a case of like, how have you been? And again, make it a bit more human. Um, let's not detract the fact that I grew a human for nine months, yeah. Birth them, and now, like, you know, she's running around being feral, like it's lovely, but again, I think it sometimes feels a lot of transactional, and I understand that that's what happens in business, but also on the flip side, a lot of businesses, and I'm sure you can attest this, Katie, are built on relationships and yes, absolutely, and I think sometimes we are so focused on the transactional that actually if we just be a bit more human, we can have stronger and more powerful conversations.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

But would you say, with this in mind, that maybe when we as women go through this phase and enter motherhood, which is a huge change within our life trajectory, maybe this is the time where we should also, rather than trying to cling on to what has been before, yeah, actually sit and think, okay, what this has now changed my whole life? What is it I really want going forward? That's because this is what I work with my uh with women I work with. This is the first thing I said. Like, does this actually that dream of the culprit ladder and all of this actually align with your life now? Can you actually do the steps which need to be done to get to this point?

SPEAKER_01 34:32

And I think that is a conversation or a conversation I definitely have with myself, and I think a lot of women, when they become mums, there is that adjustment shift, and then I think you know, we've discussed before where you see a lot of mums now that are like setting up their own businesses because they don't want to be confined to the nine to five, and that's there's nothing wrong with that, but there's some people that do want to go back to their nine to five, and I think again it is you know, I think it's easy for us to say because we're in the personal development world and we question everything all the time, and go, Oh, does this align with us? But I think it's it's having the confidence and the space, I think, as as mums and still 20 months in, it can be quite overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

It will never stop. Sorry to say that. It will never stop.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

But I think it is just having that space to to ask that question and go, well, what would you like your life to look like? And I think you know, I'm very fortunate to have that great support network where I sat down with my husband and he was like, Right, well, what does work look like for you? And straight away he was just like, I don't see you going back full-time, like I see you setting up your own business, and I do have like my project management consultancy, and then I also have my coaching business, and it is having that flexible and that freedom to be able to go the project management side. I'm still dipping my toe into the corporate, and I can still do that job.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

You're not quite ready to let that one go.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Not quite, not quite, but the coaching stuff is my passion, and I just would love to help women feel their most confident selves, especially after becoming mums, because it can be a very lonely, confidence-knocking time, and just to have someone in your corner to be like, Do you know what you're doing a really good job? Yeah, and this is possible for you.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I think I think your work is very needed. I think your work is incredible, but I think the messy middle we were debating just now is just very large. And I think I'm I if you would ask me for a solution, I wouldn't have a solution, if I'm being honest. I don't think there is a like mainstream solution to this problem. I think it both goes both ways. Companies definitely have to do better a lot of the times. I would like to say I've always done well, but only because I had a H. I the first thing I did with my company was I hired an HR company to do all my HR for me because I was in a different country and I didn't know the legal system, so this is why I did this. So that they told me exactly what to do, yeah, what everyone's rights and wrongs are, and so that so I think I've always done it the proper way with my yeah, obviously, feminine and understanding side. But so there's a lot of what companies need to do, but there is also a lot, I feel, what we women actually have to do on ourselves and the expectations we have on our employer, on people around us, and the only way to change this is to have honest conversations about this and be receptive of each other's opinion and lift life stories as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

I think so, and I think that would be. I know when you said there's no easy solution, I kind of disagree. I think the solution is just to have that open and honest conversation, and I'm not gonna say I'm gonna wave my magic wand and everything be fixed and be normal. I think it is just opening that conversation to be like, Well, what does it look like?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

I've seen other people who have gone, you know, they've had conversations with their HR before they've gone on maternity leave, and they're like, Well, I want this and I want that, and I want to be able to do the nine to five and all of this. But actually, until your baby is here and until you are in that position, you don't know what you want. And I can attest to that. Like, I was very happens to all of us. Yeah, I very much was like, Oh, I definitely want to go back. I don't want to go back, I want to still be around, and like I think that again is you know, I'm not saying there's no right or wrong way, but you have to do what's right for you and your family at the end of the day, and if that means having some really harsh and open, frank conversations that feel a bit sticky, then so be it. But there is this space that you can then have that conversation and work out a strategic plan.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

I mean, we could talk about this for ages, couldn't we? I mean, this is such a big sub, it's such a big subject, and I think we're only at the beginning of the development in a positive direction when it comes to this, because we're just I feel like we're just starting to speak about all of those things a bit more honestly, which is really good. But I would like to um go to my fire uh fire questions if that's okay, because believe it or not, we've been talking for a long time already. So I have a few fire questions for you, if I find them. Yes, so you went from project managing complex uh campaigns to finding yourself completely overwhelmed after having a baby. Do you think women knowingly make motherhood harder for themselves by going in with the belief that they can plan and optimise their way through it?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

100%. Um, yeah, I was a victim of my own success, and I'll happily say that. Yeah. I think again it's opening the conversations and being being able to be adaptable.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

But there's no one size fits all. You have to do what's right with you for you and your baby. I mean, I would love to say, Oh yeah, I've done all this, and you see all the social media stuff where they're like, oh, you need to do this to make sure that your baby sleeps through the night and you need to do this and all of that. And actually, I guess if I could go back and tell my pre-pregnancy self, trust your instincts, yeah. You know what's right, and you need to do what's right for you and your baby.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

True. So, what would you say to a small business owner who looks at your work and says, I hear you, but I simply can't afford dedicating maternity support or reboarding programs. Is there a version of what you do that works for them?

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah, I think it's us having a conversation. Um, I can advise. I wouldn't say hire me for six months. Like I would love that, but if that's not feasible, then let's just have a conversation and have half a day where we can brainstorm and then you guys can go away and implement that. I think you know, I understand small businesses don't have a lot of budget, but if you're willing to have that conversation, it is an investment.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yes, very true. And I suppose that investment could save you a lot of money in the long run. In the long run, yeah. So we are living in an era where there is more support groups, communities, podcasts, and cultures for mothers than ever before. Like I had none of this ever. Um, but yet the loneliness epidemic amongst mothers is still very real. Why do you think women are still so lonely and are we actually solving the right problem here?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I think we're still lonely because we're not being honest. I think we're still very much censoring our own experiences and journeys. Um I think even now there's times when I downplay my journey. Um I was saying outside actually that my little one didn't nap the other Friday, and I wouldn't have shared that with anyone normally, but I was just like, Why not? Because I think again there is that unsaid pressure, and I think as a motherhood empowerment coach, I'm meant to have my shit together, and there are days where I definitely don't have my shit together, and again, it's about being real like showing the reality. You know, dropped my little one off at nursery today. Did she want to kiss me goodbye? Absolutely not. She ran off and was like, bye. I was more hurt and sat in the car. Um, but again, I think it is it's about removing that sensory censorship, and I think it's about being frank and honest, and you know, I would love to say my like my Instagram DMs are always open, my my phone number, like if anyone is ever feeling lonely, I am that person that can be like, yeah, motherhood can be really shit sometimes, but it's the most amazing journey.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

It is so so many mothers go into entrepreneurship picturing flexibility and freedom, but that image is largely shaped by what we see online rather than the reality really behind it. What do you think on like the honest version of that journey actually looks like doing it myself?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

There are late nights, there are early mornings, there are, dare I say, I've worked from the car whilst my little one naps in the in the back of the car because I daren't wake her. I think what we see on socials is all the shiny, the freedom, and the flexibility. And yes, you can have that. I mean, we talked last week where I went off to Pilates in the morning and then jumped on a call with you. But I think it's it's managing your expectations, and if you want to go down that route in terms of setting up your own business, you still have to work really hard and put the effort in. And there will be times when you have to compromise, and it's just choosing what you want to compromise on. Um I was I went away on a retreat because I knew it was good for my business. It meant that I was three days away from my little one. I FaceTimed her, yes, of course. But that was a compromise I made because I knew that I needed to go on this retreat in order to push my business a bit further. So again, I think it is having the compromise that you might not be at bedtime if you're on a call or if you're having to get work done. Again, it's just I would love to say social media is great and it shows all the highlights and stuff, but I also think it needs to start showing the reality of Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

I think you like I think what everyone needs to hear is that you have to work bloody hard. Yeah. As a business. Yes, you can pick up your children from school if you choose to, but that nine out of ten times means you are working at night when they're in bed.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

You're not going home and making phone calls in the car as you're picking them up.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

But you're not going home and making tea and then sitting on the sofa to read bedside stories. You're most and then going to bed with a class of wine. You most likely are going to work quite a few hours at night to get done what you didn't get done while you were on the school run.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Or in my situation, sometimes I will have my little one running around in the background and I'm busy doing a call on the phone rather than Zoom because no one's not approaching that stuff. Like, yeah, no one can see the reality of the car crash behind me, you know, and it is just a case of you know working really hard and fitting it in. And sometimes you will only have four or five hours sleep because you've been working so late, but that is the reality of setting up your own business.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

So the question I asked everyone on the podcast is if you could give yourself one totally honest piece of advice like younger self about business, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Trust your instinct. I think there are times when I haven't and I've been burnt. Yeah. Um, but you know yourself deep down. And if you are willing to put in the hard work and you still have that gut feeling that it's the right thing, then you're on to a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Thank you for coming on the Unshakable Talks, Emma. It's a pleasure having you.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Thank you, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Thank you for listening to the Unshakable Talks. Please make sure to give us a follow and come back next week for another great conversation with another amazing woman. But I also want you to come to my event I'm hosting very soon. If you like listening to my episodes, if you like meeting the women I'm putting onto the unshakable talks, you will absolutely love my event because you're actually going to be in the room with the women from the podcast of women who do similar things. Tickets are only £10 and everything goes to charity. A charity I've chosen because it aligns fully with the values of the unshakable talks and with myself. The link is in the show notes. Get your ticket now.