Unshakeable Talks

Disordered Eating, Perfectionism and Women in Business, with Dr Rachel Evans

• Katy Schweiger • Season 1 • Episode 43

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 48:58

In this episode, Katy sits down with Dr Rachel Evans, PhD psychologist and founder of Nourish, a private eating disorder practice. Rachel shares her own experience of developing an eating disorder during her studies, why she walked away from the NHS model entirely, and how she built a practice that actually fits the people she works with. They get into the link between perfectionism and disordered eating, the patterns she sees in ambitious women, and why knowing all the tools doesn't mean you always want to use them.

Key Takeaways:

Perfectionism and fear of failure often run on the same fuel.
Rachel's eating disorder and perfectionism fed each other throughout her studies - the fear of criticism, the need for good grades, the sense that achievement was the only thing she was good at.

There's a difference between adaptive and maladaptive perfectionism.
Adaptive perfectionists have high standards and the self-compassion to handle it when they fall short. Maladaptive perfectionists beat themselves up, or avoid doing the work entirely because it might not be perfect.

The NHS model isn't built for everyone, and Rachel built her practice around that.
Three-hour intakes, support between sessions, no mandatory weigh-ins. She knew from her own experience as a client that one size doesn't fit all, so she built something that doesn't pretend otherwise.

High-achieving women often use food control as the only place the mask comes off.
When you put everything into presenting an in-control business persona, something has to give somewhere. Rachel describes how that release can show up as binging or restricting in private, in a way that doesn't show on the outside.

Having the tools doesn't mean you always want to use them.
Rachel is a psychologist who admits she doesn't always use her own tools. Sometimes something is just rubbish and you need to sit in it for an hour first. That honesty is the point.

Connect with Rachel on Instagram @Rachel.evans.phd and download her free ebook to start understanding your relationship with food here.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Unshakeable Talks! If this episode helped you, make sure you hit subscribe so you never miss an episode, and leave a review to share your thoughts - I love hearing from you. 

Follow me on Instagram @i.am.katy.schweiger and @unshakeabletalks for updates, behind-the-scenes moments, and to connect with our unshakeable community.

Join my inner circle weekly newsletter here to get actionable takeaways, key lessons from each episode, and exclusive additional resources.



SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Untaker for Talks with me, Katie Schweiger. This is not just another podcast. This is your girls' chat for business women. I'm going to speak to women in business and we're not just gonna have a normal conversation. We're speaking about what it really takes to build a business, to scale a business, why we are doing business and what are the real challenges, what are the things no one actually talks out loud? What are the things which are holding us back and what are the things which are really driving us to do what we're doing? So I believe running a business as a woman isn't harder, but it is different. So it's time we actually start talking about it. Let's get into it. On today's episode, I'm speaking to Rachel. And Rachel has a PhD and is a clinical psychologist, and we are speaking about her speciality in eating disorders, but furthermore, we are speaking about how she structured her private clinic, very different to what you would usually find if you would go to the NHS. Welcome to the unshakable talks, Rachel. Thank you for coming all the way to speak to me. Oh no, you say welcome, thank you for having me. I think our conversation is gonna be really interesting for our listeners because you are a psychologist with a PhD, you specialise in eating disorders, um, but you have completely diverted away from the traditional clinic setting in terms of working for the NHS. Um tell me a little bit about what traditionally you would be doing coming out of university and uh inquiring your PhD and um how that worked and why you're doing what you're doing now. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Uh long story short, I'm doing what I'm doing now because I struggled with an eating disorder myself. Um I was actually talking to your daughter about it because she studied some psychology, didn't she? I think when you start your undergrad and you think I want to be a psychologist, actually there's a lot more studying before you can be a psychologist. And I think the universities kind of scare you a little bit, especially if you're a perfectionist. They say, Oh, clinical psychology is really hard to get into. So I didn't really know. Well, I wanted to be a psychologist, but I didn't know how I could do that. Um, but I didn't really feel I was good at anything else. Um, so I kind of just continued, didn't I? My master's in health psychology, which unfortunately is when I started developing an eating disorder because I was trying to be really healthy. There are a lot of other factors involved, like perfectionism or getting a lot of my self-worth from having good grades, from being good at sports, and then I stopped doing those things at university. I got a job um as a research assistant, so I was really just trying to build up all the experience with that. Um, did not see that I had an eating disorder at all. Did not think I need to go to therapy, I thought I'm being healthy. What why is everyone telling me that I'm not okay when I obviously am, but I obviously wasn't. Um lived abroad a while, had a terrible time because I had an eating disorder, came back. Um, and yeah, then I started my PhD, got I did get a bit of support in that time for the eating disorder, started my PhD. Um, I didn't do clinical psychology, which I think is what a lot of people would want to do. I went in the research route, decided research is not for me. That was actually playing into the eating disorder more. Um, all the time that I was thinking, right, this research has to be perfect because you know, if you're gonna put in a peer-reviewed journal, people are obviously gonna review it. But I was like so scared of the criticism of that that I actually wasn't doing the work.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

It was like that fear of failure was so massive. And then for me, the eating disorder started off as restrictive. Um, people maybe if people have an eating disorder, um, they might relate that you kind of get to this point that you've restricted for so long, then often people experience primal hunger. So it's like once you start eating, like I couldn't stop eating. I was waking up in the middle of the night, like just binging on stuff in the kitchen, stuff that I knew my mum wanted to eat, but I was just eating it and felt like I couldn't control it. Um, that was just before I started my PhD. Okay. Um, just to be super blunt, then I made started making myself throw up because I was like, I don't want to have eaten that food. Why am I eating all this food and I can't stop myself? Which you know it's a dangerous thing to do, but you feel so desperate at the time. Things were kind of better when I started my PhD. Um, but then I could say that just fear of failure was was coming into it. Um and sorry, I just feel like screwing so.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you always so what I hear from this is that everything was run by your feel of uh fear of failure, everything was run by being perfect at everything you're doing and starting. That's the two things I really hear from here because I think someone listening to this would maybe who doesn't know anything about not much about mental health and eating disorders and all of this, would maybe say, Well, maybe studying uh psychology or doing a PhD isn't really the greatest thing to do if you're suffering from an eating disorder. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe people think that, so but for you, you just kept going, you, because there was always I think that it was like a catch-22.

SPEAKER_01

Like, that's the way to show I'm good at something because historically I have been good at studying. I've got praise for studying, like my grandma gave me 20 pounds when I was good in an exam. Like that was a new thing. So I think I was trying to reclaim that sense of it. Um, while also not really knowing. I well, I knew I wanted to be a psychologist, but I did still didn't know how to get there. Um, so I went down the research route, and then I think things really changed when, like I say, it just started being a coping mechanism for everything. Like any other big feelings, I started like binge eating because of it. So the restriction kind of stopped that I was binging, um, still making myself sick. Um, I moved into a flat in my second year by myself, and things just got really bad because I like didn't really have accountability not to do it, and that was the main coping mechanism. Um, and I guess why I'm doing how what I'm doing now, how I'm doing it. Um, I was looking online at different programs, at different therapists, and I just thought like none of these are gonna work for me. There was something so wrong with me that I had savings, but I wasn't gonna spend it on that therapy because I thought there's just something so wrong with me. So I did go down the NHS route to seek help. Um, but I just I kind of wanted more autonomy in it, and they were saying, Well, you need to be weighed every session. I didn't want to be weighed. They were saying, like, well, we think you need medication to get over this because of how severe it is. I am not anti-medication, but for me at that point, I wanted to pursue like, can I understand what's going on for me before I would try that? Um, and they weren't offering that. Um, and also I think as well, like relationship is really important to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so just being paired with someone that I didn't know, I didn't know their background, didn't know their history. Actually, um, a lot of psychologists get taught like don't self-disclose. But to me, I want to know something about the person who I'm talking to and build that relationship, which I think is why I wanted to go in private practice. Yeah. So I can do that myself. I can tell clients, like, look, I've also been there. You know, if they ask me a question, I'm quite happy to answer, which I feel like if I was working in a service, I feel like I would have to be a lot more guarded.

SPEAKER_00

That's a bit um um the relatability factor, isn't it? Like when you relate to someone, you immediately feel more understood straight away. So clients who come to you who suffer from an eating disorder will probably more likely listen to you what you have to say, um, than for someone who hasn't gone through this themselves. And you have that by doing a private clinic, what you just said, you have that flexibility because if you would have stayed within the NHS, there's obviously very strict guidelines and recommendations on how to kind of hold your sessions.

SPEAKER_01

That's correct. I mean, I obviously understand why that is the case. You know, they're trying to build a big big service, but one size doesn't fit all in this. And also I was feeling like I can build my skills as I go along, like I did extra training in hypnotherapy, um, you know, to try and get deeper with clients and decide, you know, where their issues are coming from. Um, that I feel like if I was a client, I would like that flexibility rather than like, okay, well, this is what we're doing, you've got 12 weeks, that's it.

SPEAKER_00

You know, and your program is, I believe, for six months. And what is unique about this is that you actually offer support in between sessions, and your what we in the coaching world would call onboarding um process is quite lengthy, isn't it? It's I believe three hours long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Why did you choose to do that? Yeah, thanks for asking. So actually, it was a massive thing for me when I was like, Am I allowed to give support between sessions? Um, I didn't explain that in the um beginning bit, but I'm very much like a good girl, which has been a whole thing that I'm still trying to get over. Um, but yeah, I was like, am I allowed to do this? I looked on the BPS guidelines, like you are allowed to do it, but I think historically, or maybe not even historically, but like the thinking has been like you don't want your client to get codependent with you, you don't want to give them too much support, you're gonna give them some autonomy. I guess my thinking around it is like, but they're choosing to message me, like they're taking that initiative to do it. I want to be there to support them. My clients want to get that endpoint faster.

SPEAKER_00

And that's accountability, isn't it? Me, if I would be your client, me messaging you uh saying, wait, whatever it is, whether I struggle, I had a relapse, or whatever it is, is me taking accountability for what's going on right there and then. So I suppose you could say that it's accountability taken.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. They're not handing the power to me to say, I really don't know what to do, you tell me exactly what to do because I don't know exactly what they need to do. We'll find it out together by exploring what's going on for them. Um so that was one thing, and then in terms of the three-hour session, actually sometimes we do do it as two 90 minutes, um, you know, if people don't have the time or they can't do it, but um I really just want people to get where they're going faster. Yeah, and I think people do when they come and see me, so it's like actually, do you want to be talking about um you know your history for several weeks? Like I've been a client before, um, I've had therapy at various times for different things. Like when I was pregnant, I was very anxious about the birth. I had a traumatic birth, unfortunately, um, and then had therapy afterwards. But sometimes it feels like you're not getting anywhere for a few weeks, which I can understand why if it's a trauma, you know, you want to go carefully around it, but I really want to be able to get a really good overview for people of what is going on for you, like what are the things that um are keeping you stuck, what are the things that you're worried about, so then we can make a plan of what to do, rather than that process having to take several weeks and people feeling like, but I'm so stuck in these behaviours, and also I think the other thing that I was thinking on the drive here is like by the time people have signed up to work with me, they have already had weeks of like mulling this over in their head, like, shall I talk to someone about it? Shall I do it? So by the time they say yes, they want to get going. I think there is a place for other services, yeah, which are more of the helping people get to that decision point. But I felt like my clients have already got to that decision point themselves.

SPEAKER_00

And you doing this in the form of a private practice also means that you have to run this like a business, and being in terms of your your um education and your path of like being uh getting your PhD and everything, that's very different, it's very structured, it's a certain uh path you're going down to, it's very regulated, so but actually having your own business or building your own business, it I mean, there's so many different things coming to it. And you have you started your private clinic after you had children or before you had children?

SPEAKER_01

Um so before, so actually, while I was still doing my PhD, I started it. I think partly as procrastination. Um I stopped the Pinterest. I was like, let me plan my wedding in six months and spend hours looking on Pinterest so I don't have to do my uh meta-analysis and also started the business, and it was a big motivation for me to recover because I want to be able to help other people. So I do know therapists who have an eating disorder, who work with people with an eating disorder, like that's their choice, they feel safe to do that. But I felt for me, I need that to be in the past, I don't want to feel triggered by anything that a client might say to me. So I think me wanting to start it quite soon actually motivated me really, like when I had a really strong urge, I had a lot more reasons like not to act on it. Um and yeah, I signed with business coach um yeah, in the third year of my PhD, or was it the second? Um, well anyway, during my PhD to kind of help me get started with that. But actually, I didn't realise till I was doing a talk and someone pointed this out to me. Um so my dad had his own business, my dad had a lumpshade factory, um, which is obviously different to a service-based business, but I was a receptionist for him part of the time and I worked in the factory, so I did actually see some of like how to run a business, how to do your accounts. So I think I guess because I had that and I had him as a role model, yeah, without me literally thinking he's a role model, but obviously he was. Um, I suppose maybe that was why I was more willing to be like, actually let me have a business for myself.

SPEAKER_00

But what are the because I mean I build multiple businesses, so and I've built my first business when I had a four three and a half-year-old uh child in the country that didn't speak the language. So I I know the struggles we're going through. Back in the days, there were no communities you could show. I mean, there were no business coaches out there or anything like this where I could kind of seek support. Um, so this factor of like doing it on your own and trying to figure it out, which is completely, yes, you come from an entrepreneurial background in terms of your family, but completely out of your comfort zone. It's not really what you've trained to do or what you are seeing yourself doing. What did that make mean to you? So you hired a business coach. How was that experience?

SPEAKER_01

Um, it was alright actually. I I think at the time as well, I wasn't working with people with eating disorders, it was more about behaviour change. Okay, because that's what my master's was in. So I felt like I'm qualified to do this at this point. Um, a little bit about emotional eating, which was kind of code for binging, but I didn't want to say that. Um, so I guess as well, I had the Health Food blog and I built up a network through that, and I'd learned like how to write a blog post and marketing your recipes and that side of things. So I feel like I just kind of took all the skills and just turned them into the business instead. Um yeah, I think the business coach was helpful. I think as well, because it was very much like how to make your first thousand pounds, it was very much like this is the very beginning baby steps of it. Um, I was just excited when I had my first client and you know, first um money from it. I would say it was probably only when I finished my PhD and I could do it full-time that I was really like, right, okay, you really have to make this work now. It's more than a hobby on the side.

SPEAKER_00

And when you started this to make this your full-time profession, how what what was the first step? I'm just trying to rub my head around how you would um because it's very if we're talking about a product-based uh business like your dad had, it's it's fairly simple, isn't it? You have a product, you have to market to the audience, you want to sell, so you have certain automations you have to set up to be able to sell. Um, service-based business nowadays is fairly easy, like coaching is also very easy, fairly easy, not very easy, but fairly easy in terms of the setup. But with you, because it's so specific and it's clinical and it's like there needs to be it's you need to be careful, don't you? Not everyone can just because I had an eating disorder one day, I I can't call myself an eating disorder specialist coach or something. I think I think there was there was a a fine line to the strike here. Um, so what are what were your thought processes? But have you ever thought about if I do this now, which goes so away from what my um colleagues would do, or people who are trained the same way I do, will I be seen still credible? Or those kind of thoughts? Have you ever had those thoughts? Was there ever an internal conflict you had?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I think for me as well, I am not a clinical psychologist, so I didn't do my training seeing different clients in the NHS. I kind of went a bit of a different way. So my PhD is like a research PhD. Okay. It is about eating behaviour and habits and self-control and relevant topics, but it wasn't one-to-one with clients. Yeah. Um, so then I did master practitioner training and eating disorders to work with clients. I did NLP, so I kind of built up my client's work in a different way, which I think. Yeah, sometimes I have a little bit been a little bit worried that someone's gonna bang on my door and be like, oh, but you're not allowed to do that. And I think, well, why not? Like I did before I got pregnant, I did think about going back to uni um and doing like a counselling degree, but I thought, well, why? Because I feel like I do have the skills. When I felt like I didn't have the skill, I did an additional training to like fill that hole. So I feel pretty well spread out. So yeah, I think it does come up sometimes, but then I feel like um I got when is the NLP training they were talking about? Do you know when you feel like you're in a box and you don't see out of the box? Yeah, I feel like I was in that box, and I think a lot of people are because you've been brought up in your psychology training to be like, well, this is the way that we do it. But I do think there are more discussions online now of people saying, Well, why is that the way that we do it? Oh, there's whole like honestly, if you go down the rabbit hole on Instagram, you can have whole massive threads of people debating if a psychologist is allowed to drink a glass of water in the session. Like people really, yeah, people really think about it. Well, what might the client think when you do that?

SPEAKER_00

Like, you're thirsty. That's what I will think.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like some people think, Well, I'm paying for your time, why are you having a drink or so? To me, I I I mean I did think about it, but now I'm like, Well, I'm modelling, I d I don't really think about it. Um, but yeah, you can you can overthink every small decision. But I think, well, my thinking now is like, look, as long as I'm up front, this was my training, this is my experience, do you want to work with me or not? People are choosing, they're not just being paired with me. Yeah. Like if it was a service, people can choose for themselves to do it. And I think as well, because I didn't go from working in a practice to having my own practice, it's probably a little bit different. Um, that I just kind of built it up more slowly as I was finishing my PhD at the time um with a healthy blog. I was doing some like paid recipes and collaborations and things, like never really got that far off the ground, and I kind of transitioned out of that um to do this. So it's kind of like just just juggling a few things really that I was interested in.

SPEAKER_00

But you then became a mum, you have two children who are under the age of five, I believe. Yes, yeah, so you're busy and you're having your private clinic. How does a normal day, a normal Tuesday, look in Rachel's life? Oh combining all of that.

SPEAKER_01

You asked me about a Tuesday. So I think as well, just to be really upfront with how I've done my service, because I give people support in between, I don't actually need a lot of clients, I don't want a lot of clients, I don't want to be seeing 20 people a week because I really want to know about that person. So actually, my one-to-one is limited to five people. Okay. I do other bits and bobs, I do like the three-hour session as a one-off for people and other things, but you know, so I have got time to do extra trainings, I've got time to be with my kids. I decided right, I'm gonna work three days a week. So I have my kids on a Monday and a Friday. Like, if my client sends me a message and I'm at soft play, we've had a discussion. Are you happy for me to reply if I'm at the soft play? Yes or no? Do you want me to reply as quickly? People usually say yes, I'll just discreetly have a little uh little reply to them. So I can mix both of those things.

SPEAKER_00

So you intentionally built your business around your life as a mum.

SPEAKER_01

Even before having kids though, I just thought I don't want to be back to back with clients. I people will say it's poor boundaries, but I want to be able to go over by 10-20 minutes in a session if the client needs that. Like not every session, obviously, you know, let's keep to time, but I don't want to be like, well, you've had your 50 minutes, that's it now till next week.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes just something needs to be talked over a bit longer, doesn't it? And I actually would argue um that this is actually a really good boundary you have in place because this is your boundary, this is how you want to present your service. You you're not taking on like loads and loads and loads of clients. So I actually think that's a good boundary, it's just different to what you want to expect.

SPEAKER_01

I think as well, because it's like right, this is a six months, we're not counting you paid for one minute here, you've paid for one minute there. Like sometimes the session might be a little bit shorter. We accept that. Sometimes I might do a bit of extra work between sessions, like um, where I do emotional freedom technique, which is like the tapping. Sometimes I'll make people a little video, like yeah. That's not directly in the price. I haven't said you'll get three videos with me for this six months, but I I think it does require trust from both sides that over the time it's gonna work out.

SPEAKER_00

So everyone in the coaching industry would stop you there and would say you're you're throwing money out of the a window and you shouldn't really do this. You should have your boundaries straight. If you're doing ta if you're including tapping or three tapping sessions, that should be charged as an extra. I think what would you say to this?

SPEAKER_01

It doesn't it doesn't really matter to me in a sense because I'm not paying per the per the minute. Like I don't know, I usually say like it makes my life easier in the long run. I because I've given them that degree, yes. And I think as well, if it was every week, if if it felt like it was too much and you feel like some I I don't know how to phrase it apart from like someone's taking advantage or they're saying right do this, this and this and this, and I'm like, sounds a bit awful. But do you know sometimes when you do get a little bit resentful, like you actually like the first step?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It gets to that point where you do get resentful of your the work you're doing and maybe of the client as well if they're taking too much advantage of your kindness.

SPEAKER_01

If I had that, but I don't I don't really um ever I think the only time it was really like that was when, so with my son, I actually went back to work. Um after two weeks, I had a client session of a client that I'd had for a couple of years. Um so obviously I do the six months, but if people want to stay after, then they can as well. Um, but because of because of the traumatic birth, I was like, I needed distraction, and also I didn't end up breastfeeding him for very long. So I could go back to work. Yeah. So one and a bit days a week. My parents had him from when he was a few months old. Um, and I did it. And then I tried to do that with my daughter, but my daughter wouldn't take a bottle. So at three months, when she was three months old, I tried to get a client for nourish, like the six-month one-to-one. Yeah. And I was like, um, I can't think what the word is, I probably should know since I'm a psychologist, but like I do like panic mode, like adrenaline, like I had to feed her, give her to my parents, the client would come to my home office. Um, and then after a couple of months, we were both like, yeah, sorry, I can't do this. Um, I mean, the client was very understanding um about having a baby, and we did find someone else to see them. But I think I think it's on one hand, it's nice for me to have the business that I can have that flexibility and build the hours that I want, and around that, like, but then I'm also like, you do get stuck with all the admin. If I worked for somebody else, they'd get they'd do all the admin for me.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, let's speak about this because this is what I was trying to get to earlier, because this is what business is all about, isn't it? It's the service you're offering in your case or the product you're selling, but there's so much around it what people don't see, like up front, you don't see what actually it takes to have that clinic in your case and to do all the admin and combine this with being a mum from two young children, and I don't know if you're you're married, yeah, yeah, and being uh being a wife and running a house and doing all of this, and also looking after yourself because you're you mentioned you're a perfectionist, you have you call myself a recovering perfectionist because I try and catch my are you are you really recovered? I don't think we're you'll never be covered. I don't think it's actually a bad thing, it can be a bad thing, but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. It's also what in my case thrives me really within my business. I can definitely say obviously, you are psychologists you're probably gonna tell me now Katie this is really bad.

SPEAKER_01

No, I was actually talking about this with a client the other day. Um, there's like adaptive perfectionism and maladaptive perfectionism. Okay. So adaptive perfectionism is that you set your well both set their standards high, but if you're an adaptive perfectionist, you know how to handle it if you don't meet that standard. So like if you were ill, it's important and you were ill, you were like, okay, right, I can see that I'm ill. You've got that bit more self-compassion. Maladaptive perfectionist, you're beating yourself up about it, you're and also you kind of shoot yourself in the foot because like I was saying earlier, like I didn't want to do stuff in case I didn't do it well.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so actually, yeah, have your high standards, but you know, know when actually that is possible. Like you say, if you have got kids and a husband and you're trying to do all the housework and life is just life sometimes, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

And you being a psychologist, um, someone listening maybe thinks, but okay, she's telling me that she's going through going through the same struggles and I do, but you should really have the tools to get yourself out of them really easily. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01

I do, but do I want to use them? That's really honest. Sometimes I feel like um I think for me as well, it's more about the self-awareness and noticing your patterns because I feel like I do have a pattern of sometimes I just have to catastrophise something and build it up on my head for like an hour or two hours, and then I'll get over it. And I could try and stop the catastrophizing. If I have something really important to do that I can't have that two hours, then I won't do it. Like I would use the tools. But sometimes I think sometimes stuff is really shit, and you can just be like, this is really shit. I don't want to do some work, I just want to have a coffee for an hour between clients. So I think it's about the impact that those thoughts and those behaviours are having on you. I will say, when I was pregnant, I did have a lot of anxiety because it sounds really silly, but I didn't think about oh, sorry, but pregnant. No, no, you can't. I didn't think about giving birth when we got pregnant. I just thought, do we want a child or not?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then with the maternity system now and me people say wanting to be in control, but wanting autonomy and wanting choices and to be respected, um, I had a lot of anxiety about that, and I was really struggling to use the tools then because it's like this does feel very true to me. It feels very real. My threat response is being activated by this, and with the birth trauma as well, um, I did tapping, but I think there's sometimes something about someone else holding space for you and someone else validating you that is really important, or if you're the one I can't think of what the analogy would be or the phrase, it's not that you can't see the wood for the trees, but it's like so real and so present for you. We all need to have regular value with it. So I actually ended up having EMDR for that because it was something that I haven't trained in. My logical brain won't be like, oh, that's why they're doing that. Um so yeah, I think you can have the tools, but like anyone, it's like you know what to do, but are you gonna there's a reason that you wouldn't always do it. And I think I can be compassionate with myself about that as well and know that, and know that that's just what people do, and that's what people are like. Like, I don't have to be a perfect person who's always gonna do it. Sometimes I just want to have a break.

SPEAKER_00

That's so true. So when you obviously, a lot of people listening to my podcast are ambitious women, they are usually bit women in business, and um my aim for the podcast really is to show um to to make them feel like they can relate to the stories they're hearing, and I'm I'm 100% certain they can relate to your stories. But with you being a professional psychologist, do you see certain behaviour patterns within ambitious women which make us more prone to eating disorders or other mental health um issues? Because I always say I've never had an eating disorder, um, but I definitely am of that generation from the 90s where I say I definitely suffer from disordered eating 100%, and I think a lot of women um suffer from disordered eating for different um kind of phases within your life, and uh specifically when we're really busy, we just forget to eat, or we then eat too much in the evening, or or whatever it is. But in terms of behaviour patterns, because that's what you did in your PhD as well, is there any particular behaviour patterns you really see in ambitious women?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think um there's a couple of different ones, and people might relate to all of them or some of them. Um, so I now tend to work with people who have bulimia, because that was my experience, um, of almost like when you've got your business, uh feeling like you need to put on the front, you need to be the business, which I feel like yes, that is true to some extent. Like I have my business kind of uniform or I put my jewellery on to be my business. But I think when you're building that up so much that then sometimes the what you might call like the unhelpful behaviours or like the binging, and you know how then you're maybe vomiting or exercising to like feel that control back because you've put so much into being in control, it's almost like that's the only time you can let that mask slip, maybe when you're by yourself and it's quite secret, but you wouldn't want to let anyone else into that because you've built up look, this is what I am, and yes, that is true. I'm not saying that is not true. You you are that person in your business, but sometimes when you give so much to that, you don't let yourself rest. Yeah, you don't have that downtime, and so that's when I think those behaviours can come in, and especially if then you're trying to compensate by restricting, and then maybe your blood sugar's low, you're really stressed, like the food around, it gets your attention even more, and then you think I don't want to have eaten that. And I think then it can be really tricky when, like, like you were saying earlier, life happens, you go to an event like here, there's food provided for us, it does look lovely. But like, if I was worried about what I was eating, that would be so stressful for me. Yeah, and then that's taking over your mind, and then you're thinking, Well, can I do a good job in this podcast? Because I'm just thinking about that food, or should I have that afterwards? And like, I think people don't realise um with an eating disorder, like it just feels like it consumes your mind, um, and like you want to be able to do these other things, and like, yes, you do, and you show up to them, but the amount of energy that takes with all the food noise present is so much. So, um, that would be one the kind of like release relief, off switch, dissociation from kind of binging behaviours, or I guess kind of on the flip side, but kind of the same thing at the same time, like maybe that control is part of your personality or part of your um business persona that you don't ever want to switch it off. And so you're always thinking, like, well, if I'm in that not that I was this time, but like no, if I'm here and there's the pastries or there's this, what will someone think of me if I eat that? I've got to pick the healthy option in this, and so that just becomes not a default, but like a very important part of who you are. But then if you're under fueling, then you can get all the consequences of underfueling, like maybe you can't think properly, um, like you know, you might physically be less healthy, you're getting ill, that's impacting your business, um, or you're maybe if it's not under-eating through restriction, but like you're so concerned about the healthy side of things that you're spending so much money on that. And I guess my perception of it now is like that brain room, not the technical term, but that brain room that you're spending thinking about food could have been spent on something else, like all that anxiety that you created around that is not helping your business.

SPEAKER_00

But for me, listening to this and um trying to find an angle not to relating it to food, um I hear that it's related to pressure, the pressure we're putting ourselves under, the pressure of performing or being a certain way, the pressure of presenting ourselves, our businesses in a way what we think we should be doing or we should be seen as.

SPEAKER_01

Would you say that's true? I think in terms of the question you asked me about high-achieving women, I think different people have different reasons for binging and purging and those behaviours and what they've learned growing up, but I think specifically in terms of this, yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so looking at your business, like I said, I I love the programme you put together because I think there is there's a big need to have um support in between. I I can I personally not that I need this particular programme, but I can really see the value for someone who needs it. But where is where do you see yourself in five years' time with your business?

SPEAKER_01

Um, to be honest, I just see myself in the same place. Um I actually don't want to grow a team. Like I I was at a decision point when I was like, oh, I could get a clinic, but I didn't want all the admin, like I don't want to grow myself out of the business because it is very much me, like doing this one-to-one work, and that is what I enjoy. And so I decided this private practice so I can do that on my terms. Like, I don't want to get to the next level and feel like I'm the manager, or I think as well. Like, I have thought a lot about a group programme because I think people often say a group program to expand it, but I think I think there is merit in that. Like, I do think hearing other people talk about their stories can be very beneficial, but I feel like the level that I want to go to with my clients, I don't know how I would do that with 10 people in a group if it was a group call and people have 10 minutes to say their piece, like my clients want that whole hour to be able to talk to me, be able to talk to me between. So yeah, right now I'm just I do smaller group things, um, like you know, a four-week kind of block or something like that with uh like an education piece as well. But I just don't see I just don't see me changing nourish because I really like it, I like how it's working. Maybe if it didn't, and also I didn't really want to wear it full-time, even when my kids are at school, I kind of like the flexibility. So you like to do it.

SPEAKER_00

You like to stick within your comfort zone then because me being the hustling entrepreneur, I'm thinking, but Rachel, you could scale this at some point. I'm not saying step away from what you've created because the core product is absolutely great. But me being a business coach and love the hustle and to kind of and I know how much it takes to have your own business, and I'm almost feel like wonder shape. Why are you capping yourself? Why? Because I I mean I can see this going like not necessarily group programming, but would you never see yourself like doing maybe getting involved in other people's um group programme as an expert, for example?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I could. I mean, I do a little bit of that as well.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I feel like I got my finger in like a lot of little pies, like tell me about those pies because I also know you had a couple of features on the BBC and other magazines and things according to Instagram Vio. So tell me about those little pies and how do you get them?

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, I feel like I've done various um different things. Like I did work with a PR for a little bit to get some of the things like the Vogue feature. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I suppose it's just networking, isn't it? Which I feel like was easier pre-COVID before I had kids. Like I would go to events in London and you'd meet someone and then they'll say, Oh, actually, I have got an opportunity here. So it's probably more about that, which I feel like since I had kids, that kind of got shut down because I didn't want to have to go to London. I live in Derby, it's kind of far. So I feel like I'm branching out without again thinking about some festivals, maybe. Yeah, which I did before when I had the health food blog, but now I'm like, oh, if everyone's there talking about longevity, and I'm like, but just be careful because if you try this too hard, you're gonna end up with an eating disorder. Um, but I think it just makes it more interesting, doesn't it? To have these different little opportunities and and things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just I just well that's maybe just me. I don't want women to play small, that's just kind of me. And I know that you um in the form when we do a pre-podcast form that you said you you're not quite sure who you are right now, like with like identity for an identity to you. No one you got me on a bad day because did I?

SPEAKER_01

Well, because I was doing a photo shoot at the weekend, I did decide to work with a business coach um again from January. I think so I was feeling a bit like, oh, I'm not sure what I'm doing, where I'm going. Like I'd taken a lot of time off stuff last year because I did a training course that you had to do 50 hours like um case studies for. Okay, yeah. And so that was like basically a lot of my summer. And then I just neglected Instagram, and then I was like, oh, what am I doing? Um, I haven't been juggling everything, which is fine, like you don't always do, you learn from your mistakes. Um, I'm like, what was even the question? I've gone off on a whole tangent now. Oh yeah, the um what was the question?

SPEAKER_00

The um I it wasn't a question. I was saying I I really I want women to kind of play small. Don't play small, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yes, oh identity. Why why was I like, oh my god, I don't know who I am? Um I think because having kids, like you are somebody's mum, and as well, my daughter, well, she still feeds before bed and she's three. Um, but when she was feeding in the day, like slightly TMI, you kind of need to be able to whip your boob out. So I think all my clothes was dressing around that. Yeah, like not maybe what I just would have worn, or you're thinking I might be grobbing around on the floor, so I don't want to wear a skirt today. So I think that took over so much that I was just like, and also I'm the person who keeps the clothes till they wear out. Yeah. And like a lot of my clothes that were like my business clothes before had worn out. Also, I used to have blonde hair before kids, and then that felt like that's not the priority to go and pay hundreds of pounds every three months to sit for ages to get my hair blonde. Um, like I don't do my nails anymore. It just felt like, oh, actually, those things that I'd put on my identity, not that it was my whole identity, it didn't matter if I didn't do them, but like I don't have those. Like, when will I have time before this uh photo shoot to go and get my nails done? I'd have to do it in my working hours. Yeah. And then I didn't feel like I wanted to, and then I just I just that's what I was saying about. I go down a little hole. It's all you go down the hole, and then I was like, just pick some clothes for the photo shoot, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00

Like this shift from going down the hole to then actually snapping out of it and saying, fuck's sake, just pick those clothes for the photo shoot, it's not that deep. What is what do you do to get to that point? Because this is an executive shift a lot of women can't. That's a hurdle. A lot of women can't jump over and then stop and then retrieve and not do the photo shoot.

SPEAKER_01

I'm like, I'm interested what you do because do you not just get sick of your shit a little bit?

SPEAKER_00

You're just like I'm actually really good in calling myself out on my own crap. Um definitely it's it was definitely a huge learning curve for me. Um I was the queen of procrastination 100% because it goes back to self-worth for me personally. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but for me, everything related back to self-worth. I wasn't obviously feeling that I was worthy of whatever I wanted to achieve. Therefore, I neglected myself uh very much. But once I realized what I was actually doing, and that took me a good 10-15 years, may I just say. So, like, big I was always just performing and doing. I was definitely in this kind of weird hamster wheel of like do do do do do instead of be. But once I realized this and started, I was getting a bit selfish as well, and realizing I need to do certain things for me to feel better about myself, which then trickled down onto taking an opportunity, doing things I wouldn't usually do. Um, that was for me really the big shift. But I have had to be really clear about this, and it goes back to what I teach within my framework, the clarity piece. So for me, it's all about any in anything you do about clarity. Really?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think it's so important what you just said, and I think it comes back to what we were saying earlier, and you were asking me like what are the patterns that I see that we didn't talk about. Okay, well, if you've got that pattern, you know, what is the next steps? What is it that you maybe need to get out of that place when you are um being, I guess, a perfectionist or you're trying highly achieving in your business, and you're like, when can I take that mask off to do it? I think it's that self-love piece that you can be like, Well, actually, I do like to get my nails done, or I like to get my head. I like these things in my business, it makes me feel good. But equally, if I don't have those, it doesn't mean that I'm not good enough if I don't do all of these things, or if something goes wrong because you know a launch might go wrong if you're in that model, well not go wrong, but not. But it'd be for you better with painted nails, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00

But it's you know what do you see what I'm trying to say? It's like it's yes, of course, those things go wrong, and we need to be kinder to ourselves, and also ex there's so many aspects which play into a launch, for example. Um but equally, I know I need to be in a position where I feel the best about myself and the effort I put into this launch in order to say, okay, it didn't go like I expected it to, but it wasn't me. Yeah, if I wouldn't have done this, then I would have probably been much more harder on myself. So I think it is important to actually really start with yourself. Well, that's my kind of whole teaching, but I also think it's important who you surround yourself with because I would be lying if I would say I've done it all myself. I have right the right people around me. My family is incredibly supportive, my husband is incredibly supportive. He's probably the one person in my life who calls me out of my bush at all the time. Like he says, Katie, you look what you're doing. So you need people around you or a culture, or I've I have a culture myself, so like we need people to kind of have a sounding board, don't we? Or psychologists, or what whatever that maybe is. So I think that I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think as well with some of these things, like you can bring awareness to it yourself. But I guess where the psychology piece is important is you know, sometimes we have things that we've learned growing up that we're just so not aware of where did this come from, why am I in this place? And I think as well with um behaviours like binging and purging, like it can bring a lot of shame. Yes, or sometimes, even like you say, like if your launch hasn't gone well and you're blaming yourself, you're thinking I'm the problem.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I guess my work is trying to help people like where did you learn to always think when these things happen, you're the problem. There's something wrong with me, I'm a bad person, I'm not good enough. Like, where did those things come from? So we can start to be reframing them, we can actually start to shift that belief in a way that feels believable. Because I think often like we might want to do positive affirmations or something, but like you don't really believe it half the time, do you? So it's like, how can we get it to a point there that is believable and things can happen in your life that shake you? Yeah, but then you don't need to return to like those unhelpful ways of coping with it.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I always say. People ask me, What is an unshakable woman? Nothing goes wrong in your life. And I said, No, no, no, I wobble. I wobble big time sometimes. But I think the difference is I realize when I wobble, I know I take it for what it is. Am I perfect all the time? No, sometimes I cry. Everyone has their low moments, but I can pick myself up fairly quickly, and it won't stop me in my tracks, it won't stop, or it won't make me go back to self-destructive mood, it won't go me back to being too hard on myself. I'm starting to be unkind to myself or unkind to the people around me as a as a result. And that's I think that's the difference. And that that's what you're referring to in terms of the coping mechanisms as well, isn't it? And I think that applies to eating disorders, mental health um uh conditions, whate whatever whatever any coping, alcohol, whatever you do that you're like actually. Control control is a is a huge co coping mechanism, isn't it? I love being in control. In a good way, not in a bad way. Rachel, I loved our conversation. I would like to fire some fire question at you. Hold on. I had to write them down. So you give your clients um message support between sessions, and that's something not done in the clinical psychology field. Do you think those walls are actually designed to protect the client or to protect the practitioner?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, good question. Um both. Both.

SPEAKER_00

Why is it designed to protect a practitioner? What's the thinking behind it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I guess boundaries and like um I was saying earlier in the episode, I've kept my caseload small so that I can facilitate this. Whereas can you imagine if you have back-to-back sessions all day and then people messaging you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think as well, part of it is if you're working with people who maybe are in a very vulnerable situation or someone's messaged you between a session like, I don't want to be here anymore, like they are at a crisis point. I think you know, people wouldn't, you know, have to want to be deal with that. So probably ethics does come into it. But I feel like the way that I've set it up, it's quite clear, you know, what is this messaging being used for? Um, because I have the small caseload. So I think it is both, but I think in some situations it wouldn't be practical for people to do that.

SPEAKER_00

So the Venus industry has spilled an enormous economy out of telling women what they need they need more self-love, more self-compassion, more inner child healing, um, more journaling and manifestation. Um, honestly, how much of what we've been sold as women in the name of self-compassion is actually working?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think it's very individual for different people because if we had, you know, 100 people in this room, each person would say a different one of those things has worked for them. Um, so I don't think it's the things themselves. I thought you were taking a different tack with that question to say the wellness industry is also telling us like you need this collagen matcher, yeah, and you need these other products because oh, you've got a wrinkle. Like, I feel like it's both, isn't it? So we're gonna sell you the solution to the thing that we told you was the problem.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, you make you marketing in general, and um, we know the same marketing culture, it's like play on the pain points of your clients, but this itself is when you from your perspective is actually could potentially cause more damage than it actually does good, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't have anything against collagen matcha, but you know, in some situations, maybe if people don't have the money to afford that thing, that product. And I bought a collager matcher. I have been aggressively marketed too when I've tried to leave, it was very difficult to leave the subscription and I kept come back, come back. I'm like you get 50% off. They message me about 10 times. You've got 15 pounds off, or I just think I don't want to be marketed to you that way. If I like your product, I'll buy a product and carry it on. But um, yeah, I mean, I think if you have got the resources, like in terms of money or things, to be buying different journals and so, but like you don't need to do that, um, you know, to build more compassion to yourself. There are a lot of free resources and other things as well.

SPEAKER_00

I like to end every episode with one question, and I would like to extend this to you. If you could give younger Rachel one piece of brutally honest advice about business and work, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01

Um in the nicest way, probably like don't listen to your dad because uh he has different opinions to me about business, and you know, he is my dad. He has also given me, he's probably given me a lot of good business advice as well. But you know, some of it like I feel like I've really taken to heart and it's made me feel like I'm doing things wrong or I'm not good enough, or I suppose he's a little bit on your side of things. So he probably wants to shake me sometimes, be like, oh, but you could be making more money in this, or you could be doing it differently. But I think, well, no, like for me and my values, I'm quite happy with how things are now, how I can have time off to do certain things. Um, so yeah, probably be discerning when you you're gonna take his advice or not about things.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for coming to the Unshakable Talks, Rachel. That was lovely. Well, thank you. Thank you for listening to the Unshakable Talks. Please make sure to give us a follow and come back next week for another great conversation with another amazing woman. But I also want you to come to my event I'm hosting very soon. If you like listening to my episodes, if you like meeting the women I'm putting onto the unshakable talks, you will absolutely love my event because you're actually gonna be in the room with the women from the podcast or women who do similar things. Tickets are only £10 and everything goes to charity. A charity I've chosen because it aligns fully with the values of the unshakable talks and with myself. The link is in the show notes. Get your ticket now.