AI: The Art of the Interview

Françoise Gilot: The Woman Who Said No to Picasso

• Malte Herwig • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Françoise Gilot was the only woman who ever left Pablo Picasso. She shared her remarkable story with Malte Herwig in many interviews, which became a book: "The Woman Who Says No". Hers is a story of passion, creativity, and courage in the face of artistic genius. In this episode, Malte and his two AI-Hosts Alex and Isabel explore her unique position as both an accomplished painter and the partner of the 20th century's most famous artist. 

• Françoise Gilot was the only woman who said "no" to Picasso after a decade-long relationship
• Picasso exhibited intense jealousy when Matisse expressed interest in painting Gilot
• Gilot maintained her own artistic vision despite living in Picasso's shadow
• She characterized their relationship as "a catastrophe worth living"
• Gilot's fearlessness and quick intellect allowed her to challenge Picasso's attempts at control
• Her work is now featured in the Musée Picasso in Paris, a recognition of her artistic significance
• Even at 101 years old (before her death in 2023), Gilot maintained that taking risks is essential to truly living

If you don't take risk in life, it's not worth anything, in my opinion, because if you take risk, you have bad moments, but you also learn a lot of things and you are alive and you understand more and more. You don't understand less and less and you don't become dull, which is the worst you know to become dull.

Original interview (published in Süddeutsche Zeitung Magazin): 

https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/kunst/picasso-war-wie-ein-taliban-79086



www.publicorum.com

Gilot:

I loved him. He's certainly the person for whom I had the most intense passion in my whole life, but I was not about to live like a slave in front of a power that had no limit. No, no.

Malte Herwig:

That was Françoise Gillot, painter, philosopher and the only woman who managed to escape Pablo Picasso. My name is Malte Havik and I'm the journalist who interviewed her. Welcome to episode three of the Art of the Interview. And, as always, I'm joined, if not in body but in spirit, by my AI co-hosts, alex and Isabel.

Alex:

Picasso. Huh, that's like dropping the name Storm in a weather report and expecting calm. Malte, give us a taste. What was it really like being in the eye of that hurricane?

Isabel:

Yeah, malte, don't hold back. Was he a genius or a tyrant, or a bit of both? And how did Gilo keep her own fire alive?

Malte Herwig:

You'll hear those answers directly from her in this episode. But first I have to get something off my chest. You know I'm used to the poetry of news journalism and interviews, but last night I was trying to code Python scripts just in order to sort out your API keys. I'm not even sure what that means.

Isabel:

Bravo, another bedtime story where the poor human journalist valiantly drowns in a sea of algorithms Riveting.

Alex:

Hey, at least you're swimming. I'm just the office printer quietly spitting out pages without a single complaint or existential question.

Malte Herwig:

You know, coding feels a bit like watching paint dry. If the paint was really, really, really stubborn and you had to convince every brushstroke to cooperate, while sitting alone in a dimly lit studio I was questioning my life choices. Coding is really the perfect cure for excitement. You know, as the deadline approached, I almost panicked when I prompted you for the umpteenth time and you still wouldn't come up with the goods.

Isabel:

We don't do panic or insomnia. We're the interns who never sleep and never mess up your coffee machine.

Alex:

Watching you wrestle code is like observing someone try to cover a breaking scandal with a crumpled notebook and 12 missing pens Fascinating chaos.

Malte Herwig:

Thanks, I'll add that to my byline. The chaos correspondent.

Isabel:

Look, someone's got to handle the messy, unpredictable stories with real feelings and coffee stains, while we just crunch the numbers and look perfect.

Alex:

But hey, when you finally scoop the API, the feeling's sweet. We just get applause from a bunch of pixels.

Malte Herwig:

At least your future is safe. When I talk to other colleagues in the media, they all complain about AI threatening their jobs. That's you guys.

Isabel:

When you survive this human versus machine saga, maybe you can teach us how to complain like a pro. We're still loading that feature.

Malte Herwig:

All right, all right. Back to Françoise Gillot. I met her many times, interviewed her, wrote a book about her that's called the Woman who Says no, and I chose that title because Picasso called her the woman who says no, because she was the only one to say no to him.

Alex:

That's a fascinating insight, malte. It really gets to the heart of her unique position in Picasso's life. You know, it reminds me of what a seasoned editor once told me the best stories are often found in the no's. So this woman who says no title, it's brilliant.

Isabel:

Malte. How do you approach telling stories like Gilot's? It's so rich with tension, creativity, love and survival. How do you keep that balance between drama and respect?

Malte Herwig:

You know, when I started looking for her I didn't even know if she was still alive. And then I finally tracked her down in Paris where she had a beautiful studio and I mean an atelier, an artist's studio in Montmartre, of all places, and that's a place steeped in art history. Picasso had a studio there a hundred years ago, and many, many others. So in the book I call Françoise Gillot the last survivor of art history, because she knew them all Picasso, braque, matisse, giacometti, and on and on, and on and on. So of course I asked her about that time and those fascinating people when I met her.

Malte Herwig:

But it was not the only reason why I came. You know, she had left Picasso almost half a century before I first met her and I wanted to know what happened since then, what about her life after Picasso. And I think that made her open up to me and that gave me her trust, because she knew I wasn't just talking to her as a footnote to Picasso, but I was interested in her life, her work, her opinions. Of course she was a little reserved initially. She was a bit of a grande dame, you know, with a maid at home, dressed in this classic black dress with a white apron the maid, not Françoise and over time, as I met her in New York or in Paris, both places where she lived, she started opening up and we talked about anything really.

Alex:

So it's not just a Q&A. It's about reading between the lines, sensing shifts in tone, timing, questions like musical rhythm.

Isabel:

And avoiding those landmines of emotions bruised by history. It's empathy combined with intuition.

Gilot:

Picasso was always interested in asking sort of complicated questions and you always like people not to be able to answer, and so I always thought that you had to find an answer. You know not to say maybe or something to find an answer. You know not to say maybe or something. Since he had told me that if I had been condemned to death by a judge and I could only save my life by doing a drawing, he said what would you do? I said I know I would do. I would draw freehand a perfect circle. So since it would be a perfect circle, even a judge could not say that I didn't regain my life with it. He said oh, but a perfect circle is not really a drawing. I meant you might do a head or something like that. No, no, I said I know the judges and I know the people who are practicing law. If they can discuss it, it won't be good.

Malte Herwig:

So yeah, but you have something you can't, absolutely can't, discuss. I really like this story because you see how she undermines Picasso's challenge. And she knows judges. She says because in the early 1940s in Paris, occupied Paris, she studied law and philosophy. Although Picasso was a genius as a painter, she had an advantage over him as an intellectual. That's pretty clear to me.

Isabel:

What a brilliant act of defiance, using the purest form as your shield its simplicity, wielded with power.

Alex:

And it's almost poetic, right Completing a perfect circle as an act of survival.

Malte Herwig:

This quick thinking and courage were her lifeline, because living with Picasso meant to be constantly exposed to his mercurial temper, his jealousy and possessiveness.

Alex:

Speaking of tension, you uncovered Picasso's fierce jealousy towards Matisse. Tell us about that jealousy and what it meant for Gillot.

Malte Herwig:

jealousy towards Matisse Tell us about that jealousy and what it meant for Gillot. Well, françoise actually told me that while she loved Picasso and admired him as an artist, her favorite painter was actually Henri Matisse. So she really wanted to see him and asked Picasso to introduce her to Matisse. So one day in the south of France they go and visit Matisse and Picasso introduces Françoise as a young painter and Matisse pretends he doesn't know they are together. So he says to Picasso well, I think I might like to paint her and I think I will paint her green. And Picasso is very surprised and irritated by this. He doesn't say anything in front of his old friend Matisse. They've known each other for decades, but Francois told me what happens once they left.

Gilot:

And as soon as we were back in the car, pablo said what now? How did Matisse dare to say he would do your portrait, I am going to do your portrait, he's not going to do your portrait, et cetera, et cetera.

Malte Herwig:

And he did found Fleur yeah after that.

Gilot:

That's why, about two weeks or a few weeks later, that's when he did the first portrait of me the woman flower, where the hair are leaf green and what is left of the body is stem. You know is pale blue.

Malte Herwig:

So that was the first big oil painting he did of her and she kept it for a few decades and I think in the 1980s she sold it and bought a very nice studio apartment on the Upper West Side in Manhattan. Good investment, surely. But I don't think she sold it for the money. I have a slight feeling that she sold it because she didn't want to have Picasso's view of her hanging in her own living room anymore.

Isabel:

A vivid battleground painted in bold strokes Malte. How did you handle such a delicate topic in interviews?

Malte Herwig:

I showed her that I wasn't just interested in her as a mirror of Picasso's life and work, but I wanted to understand the source of her own strength her fearlessness. I think I never met anyone who was as fearless as this old lady had been all her life.

Gilot:

There are some people who are very fearful and I am the opposite. So if you provoke me I'm going to jump, you know. So in that sense it's not very womanly. I always had more the temper of maybe a young boy than a young girl, so whatever. So Pablo was very interested because he always provoked me to this or that and instead of saying oh, I don't know, I said oh, yes, talk, I would have an answer. Anyway, good or bad, I didn't mind, I had an answer.

Alex:

Gilot's words go beyond art. They speak to the human condition Risk as vitality.

Isabel:

And Malte. Do you see this willingness to take risk reflected in your interviewing style?

Malte Herwig:

Oh, absolutely. Once you've built trust, you can have the most profound conversations if you're willing to step out of your comfort zone. But you have to do it. You know, in an elegant, in a soft way, Asking hard questions in a soft way. It sounds like a paradox, but there is something to it and it's always a two-way thing. You know, a bit like a dance. I really like that metaphor because you have to do it together, you have to do it at the right time. You're not an interrogator or the Spanish.

Alex:

Inquisition. Not bad advice, even for AI analysis.

Isabel:

Yes, though Malte brings the human heart that no algorithm can replicate.

Alex:

True, but I can throw shade and keep you on your toes.

Isabel:

And I'll fact checkcheck and gently critique Teamwork makes the dream work Picasso always wanted power, absolute power.

Gilot:

So if you want absolute power, you have to reduce the other to jelly. You know you have to crush everything. So that's why, at the end, I left. It had become impossible precisely to be oneself next to him.

Malte Herwig:

When Françoise left Picasso, she didn't just escape. She wanted to reclaim her identity and agency and also protect her kids, because Picasso wasn't very good at taking care of even his own children.

Isabel:

That act of courage teaches us about autonomy and love's complex dance.

Alex:

Love and power often intertwine in passionate but potentially destructive ways.

Isabel:

Her story reminds us chaos often fuels creativity and resilience shapes artists.

Alex:

And Malte. You bring these stories alive with your layers of narrative and empathy.

Malte Herwig:

You know, the best stories are painted in shades of gray, not in black and white. They are a mixture of emotions pain and joy, fear and hope, shadow and light, all intertwined.

Isabel:

And humor. Without it, we cannot endure even the darkest stories.

Malte Herwig:

Talking of dark stories, let's rewind a little bit. Talking of dark stories, let's rewind a little bit. The year is 1943. Paris is occupied by the Nazis, the German Wehrmacht, and that is. And Françoise was a young artist, already carving her own path and unaware that her life was about to change forever.

Alex:

Imagine a meeting of two creative titans under such turbulent times. It must have been electric and daunting all at once.

Isabel:

Malte. What did Gillo say about that fateful meeting? Was it love at first sight or more complicated?

Malte Herwig:

A lot more complicated as well. Picasso had a lot of charisma, but Françoise quickly sensed the storm beneath the surface and she was falling in love with him and at the same time she realized it would be a big mistake to move in with him. She actually told me so in her own inimitable words.

Gilot:

I did not want to live with him. I knew it would be a catastrophe and I said it. I knew it would be a catastrophe, but it was a catastrophe worth living.

Malte Herwig:

A catastrophe worth living. What do you make of that, Isabel?

Isabel:

There's something elemental about that description, like she lived in two worlds simultaneously.

Alex:

And that tension is the heartbeat of much great art, the push and pull between chaos and control.

Malte Herwig:

Exactly, and Françoise had to learn fast. She wasn't just a muse, she was a painter, a challenger, and that dynamic shaped much of their relationship.

Alex:

In your interviews, Malte, how did you capture that complexity, the love, the fear, the liberation?

Malte Herwig:

You have to be open to what happens in the actual meeting, in the conversation, because if you go into a conversation like that and you know already what is going to be said, that's pretty boring, isn't it?

Isabel:

And I suppose that's where your human intuition shines, where AI can only analyze words without feeling.

Alex:

True, but we try. We learn with every story you share with us. The interplay between human insight and AI analysis is fascinating more in the course of this podcast.

Malte Herwig:

Your data and fast synthesis help spotlight threads in my interview that I might have missed or forgotten about. But as you would probably phrase it, the soul lives in human empathy In the end.

Alex:

Isn't great storytelling about that, evoking layers of feeling beneath the surface facts?

Isabel:

And your skill as a storyteller. Malte brings those layers vividly alive in this piece.

Malte Herwig:

You know, isabella was sometimes surprised and taken aback, in fact how openly she spoke about Picasso. Here's an example.

Gilot:

The cruelty, the sadism that he had, which was purely mental, was much worse later on, so that's why my love for him became extinct at some point.

Malte Herwig:

And that's why I think Gilot's story remains vital and important, especially today, as an example of feminine resilience and creative passion finding her own way, Malte.

Alex:

your role in this project is to translate that richness for our listeners. How do you approach telling these layered stories?

Malte Herwig:

layered stories. Well, I'd like to create a conversation, not give a lecture, and this podcast is part of that. We're trying to balance data-driven facts by you guys with emotional nuance.

Isabel:

And including AI co-hosts, adds a fresh perspective, balancing data-driven facts with emotional nuance.

Alex:

Though I'm still working on my comedic timing.

Malte Herwig:

You're improving, Alex, but Isabelle is the real star of the shade game.

Isabel:

Flattery will get you everywhere, malta. It's an enormous challenge to grow independently when constantly in the shadow of a giant Malta. Did she ever express moments of self-doubt or struggle with that?

Malte Herwig:

Yes, yes, she did, and there were times when she wondered if the art world would ever see her separate from Picasso. But at the end, it was those doubts that fueled her determination to persist and assert her own voice?

Alex:

And wasn't there a period when they lived apart and she created some of her most distinctive works?

Malte Herwig:

Yes, she used every bit of creative freedom that she could get. Yes, she used every bit of creative freedom that she could get. There is an interesting catalog, Picasso and Gillot Mano a Mano, combining works that they both did at the same time in those 10 years when they were together. And it's really interesting what Gillot painted or drew in that time. It's kitchen scenes, bit like you know, confined spaces, almost like a prison, and also a drawing, Adam forcing Eve to eat an apple. And you know, when you look at it it's pretty clear that Adam is Picasso and Eve is her. So she had a really creative way of reflecting on their relationship and for herself, of asserting her, and my favorite conclusion to this is that she is the first woman artist who has a room dedicated to her work in the Musée Picasso in Paris since 2024, I think and that is an honor, you could say and, on the other hand, long overdue and well-deserved.

Isabel:

And painting a sanctuary so vital for anyone caught in turbulent relationships or lives.

Alex:

Malte. Your interviews must have unearthed stories about how she balanced motherhood and art during those years too.

Malte Herwig:

Yes, she was a mother of two, her children Claude and Paloma Picasso, and she often had to balance demands of family life with her passion for art. So the tension between domestic responsibilities and artistic ambition was palpable.

Alex:

It's inspiring how she managed to nurture both children and creativity in the midst of chaos.

Isabel:

That balance of darkness and light, struggle and love is what makes this story resonate universally Malte what's your advice for storytellers tackling hard truths?

Malte Herwig:

I would say listen more than you speak. Have empathy, but be ready to be uncomfortable. Follow your curiosity, but never lose respect.

Isabel:

And AI can assist, but never replace that human element the empathy, the intuition.

Alex:

We're just here to crunch numbers and throw in some snarky comments occasionally.

Isabel:

Which keeps Malta humble and us entertained.

Malte Herwig:

Humble really. We're just here to crunch numbers and throw in some snarky comments occasionally Humble really.

Isabel:

Why don't you two tell me what you have learned from Françoise's story?

Alex:

And to always cherish the stories that remind us what it means to be human.

Malte Herwig:

Right, alex, and that's why we are doing this podcast, so I can remind you in every episode what it means to be human, and I enjoy doing that much, much more than coding. Francoise Gilot, and it's her perspective on risk, not just in art or love, but in life itself.

Isabel:

She was all for embracing risks to live fully. And yet risk comes with fear and pain. So how did she balance the desire for boldness with the need for?

Malte Herwig:

safety. Well, that brings us back to her relationship with Picasso. She earlier said that she knew it would be a catastrophe, but a catastrophe worth living because you grow through your experiences. But maybe we best let her explain it in her own words.

Gilot:

I think it's better to risk something more dramatic with somebody interesting. And, on top of all, I think that many times, if you have the wrong idea to go with somebody more or less mediocre because you think that you'll have peace, that's a wrong idea Because many times the person who is mediocre will take much more time to destroy you, especially when you're a woman, oh yes, that's a fearless philosophy, one that demands much but gives back deeply.

Alex:

Malte. In your extensive work with interviews, do you see people who embody that courage?

Malte Herwig:

Sure, but it's often moments of vulnerability that reveal profound strength. So I would say, a courage isn't absence of fear, it's choosing to move forward anyway.

Isabel:

I'm reminded that even the greatest artists are human, full of shadows and light.

Alex:

And it takes a great interviewer to honor that complexity without oversimplifying.

Malte Herwig:

I see you already learned the lesson that flattery will get you anywhere, and don't forget a little.

Alex:

AI sass keeps things interesting.

Malte Herwig:

Always at you anywhere. And don't forget a little. Ai sass keeps things interesting Always. But before we sign off, I'd like to reflect on how stories like Gillot's and Picasso's transform our understanding of art and humanity. They remind us that behind every masterpiece is a human, flawed and courageous at the same time.

Alex:

And that storytelling, whether human or AI-assisted, helps us bridge the gap between history and personal experience.

Isabel:

Malte. What is your takeaway from exploring Guillaume's story with us?

Malte Herwig:

For me, it's a reminder to live fully and listen deeply, don't be afraid and never stop asking questions.

Isabel:

So true, Embrace the chaos, cherish the calm and never lose asking questions. So true, Embrace the chaos, cherish the calm and never lose the spark. Thank you, Malte, for guiding us through this journey.

Malte Herwig:

Malte. Thank you, too, for joining me in this episode, and thank you to all our listeners. If you managed to listen to Minute 23 and don't like this show, please let us know what we can do differently. And, if you like us, please subscribe and share the joy with many others. And the last word has, as always, my interviewee, françoise Gillot, who died in 2023, aged 101.

Gilot:

If you don't take risk in life, it's not worth anything, in my opinion, because if you take risk, you have bad moments, but you also learn a lot of things and you are alive and you understand more and more. You don't understand less and less and you don't become dull, which is the worst you know to become dull.