Twos Talks with Ji Lee

Ji Lee, graphic designer and former Creative Director at Google, Facebook, and Instagram, shares how he went from having his ideas rejected to building a career through personal projects like the Bubble Project, a simple creative experiment that turned into global recognition and led to opportunities at top agencies and tech companies. He talks about why personal projects often reveal more about a designer than commercial work, how they shaped his career, and why making time for them is essential for creative growth. Ji Lee also discusses creativity as problem solving, the limitations of traditional advertising, and how authentic ideas can create meaningful connections with people.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

G Lee. Born in South Korea, G. Lee is one of the most creative designers to come out of the country. Throughout his career, Lee has worked as a creative director for Droga 5, Facebook, Instagram, and Google. He was also the executive vice president of global marketing at Startup. But it was Lee's personal projects that made his name known in the creative board. Projects such as the Bubble Project appeared on the streets of New York, making headlines and even appearing on television broadcasts. Lee brings the humor's creative vision to its board, which is why some of the world's biggest companies have spoken out. In 2020, during the COVID pandemic, he created social media accounts for his father, transforming a period of sadness into moments of joy that eventually turned him into a social media star with millions of followers. This is TwoStocks with G. Lee.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

First of all, it's a pleasure and honor to have you here at TwoStocks. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Thank you. Uh honor is mine and uh very excited to talk to you, Saj.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Thank you. So you were born in Korea, raised in Brazil, and you basically developed your career in New York, in the United States. And as a creative director, as a creative designer, these cultural differences because there are three different cultures. So how difficult was it, or was it difficult to get adjusted to these different cultures in your career throughout your career?

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Yeah, I think uh it was sometimes difficult, but also that's what really uh gave me the special uh character, and uh these experiences really helped me as a person, as a designer. So when I was growing up in Korea, uh you know, in the 70s, um, Korea was still a rather poor country, um, you know, recovering from the Korean War. And um, you know, I had very little exposure to non-Korean cultures. The only exposure I had was American culture through TV series. Um, so when I was about 10, my whole family immigrated to Brazil. So going to Brazil was uh, you know, almost like going to different planets, uh, you know, uh seeing different people, culture, food, language, everything was new, and it was an explosion of senses and new experience. Um I remember you know going to the school for the very first time, and I was not able to speak any Portuguese. The only thing I was able to speak was uh may I go to the bathroom in Portuguese? Posso ir ao banheiro that my uncle taught me, you know, five minutes before because he thought that would be only one thing that's important for me to know. The emergency world. Exactly. So, but you know, as a 10-year-old, you're still uh young and you pick up things quickly, so um, and the Brazilian people are very friendly. So I just I adopted uh pretty well, but I think what also um happened was that I developed uh new ways of communicating with people besides verbal languages. So I had to learn how to uh effectively communicate within the limits. Uh and then, you know, I stayed in Brazil for 10 years, moved to New York to uh study at art school in New York, which was a completely also new experience for me, new place, language, people, mannerism that opened my world and my brain to a whole different uh uh reality. And uh in New York is uh a very multicultural city, and that really opened up so this big uh shift in my life of changing from Korea to Brazil, Brazil to New York really had an impact uh in my creativity, the way I see things, the way I communicate. And I think you tend to see in my work that things are really visual and simple. Uh, so I'm sure that's you know due to those experiences.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yes, that's beautiful. It's about connecting in the most simplest way without the language barriers. That's beautiful. Also, uh, you started as a graphic designer. You mentioned in your other interviews that you had a job after becoming a graphic designer in a big uh agency that you didn't like it. You felt like you were stuck for four years in the position that you had as a creative, your ideas wasn't going through. Could you tell us a little bit about that phase and that part of your career?

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Yeah, so excuse me. I studied graphic design uh and I went into start uh work in a design corporate design studio, and uh um I wanted uh to do more conceptual work because in the first years of uh junior, being a junior graphic designer in the studio, I did a lot of uh you know corporate design stuff like brochures and annual reports, uh, which was rather dry and it was not necessarily very creative. So uh growing up in Brazil, which was uh one inspirational thing, um, there were lots of amazing uh TV commercials and advertising, full of humor, very conceptual, that becomes part of the culture. So I wanted to do more conceptual work like that. I really wanted to get into advertising. And because of the work that I did uh while I was at the uh art school, I was able to get hired at a uh global ad agency. Uh so when I went there, I thought, well, this is really the beginning of you know a great, hopefully a good career when I'm gonna do lots of creative work, you know, win awards and have fun. Uh but also the reality of working in this big ad agency uh wasn't that creative because uh the clients, the agency culture was very conservative, was very safe, did not want to experiment, did not want to take any risks. Everything uh that we did was tested, and then you know, all the experimental ideas and interesting thoughts were uh eliminated. So they ended up becoming very uh safe and non-interesting. So I worked in that global agency for about four years. Uh and during that time, I was not able to produce anything at all. Uh, every idea that I thought was interesting got killed. Uh so after about four years, I sort of gave up. Uh why should I try this hard when I know that the client and uh my boss is not going to approve this idea. So uh it was uh extremely frustrating experience for me. Uh and I felt um completely defeated and uh deflated. So it became just a job. You know, I went to work, I closed the you know, the doors in the office, and I just was playing online chess half of the time. Because I thought to myself, there's no really reason to work hard. Uh so I'm just gonna do the the minimal work necessary and then just go home.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

But a lot of designers might be stuck in that phase right now, and the decision to actually quit that uh in when you feel that it's such an important decision that you actually made that. I wanted to ask you about that as well. Like, when was you do you remember a moment that you were like, this is it, I can't take this?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah. It wasn't a uh one specific moment, it was a gradual phase. Uh, you know, you you try once and twice and three times and 30, 40 times, and every time uh the ideas are not really moving forward. So slowly uh it became uh evident to me that uh doing anything interesting was not gonna really change the outcome. So I um slowly, but then after four years, it just came to realization that I was not gonna do anything. Uh, but then I was deep inside, I was very empty and frustrated. Because I remember at our school, uh also, although the work was very hard, I was, you know, stay up until very late to get ready for the classes and the project. But it was so exciting, you know, coming up with these ideas and then presenting to in front of the class and making things. And because in our school, there really isn't a client, right? The client is maybe your professor or your you know students in your classrooms and they'll give you feedback, but then you're free to do whatever you want. And that freedom is one thing I missed. Uh so uh I wanted to go back to that uh kind of environment where I could be creative again and do experimental stuff, but I just wasn't able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Was it after that period that you started with your personal projects or alongside of that period?

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Yeah, it was it was exactly in that period. So in a way, I am looking back, I am very grateful that I had to go through that struggle, you know, because there's a saying here, right? No pain, no gain. Yeah. So I think every artist, or every person, I think, in a certain extent, needs to go through the the struggle to realize and something, and then out of that struggle comes something special. Uh, and that was the case for me too. So during the time at that agency, um, I got very frustrated as I said, and I really wanted to do something, wanted to express myself. You know, one thing that I was uh uh extremely angry was, you know, in my mind, and in I think my friend's mind who saw the ideas, um, these were great, interesting ideas that I knew that many people would enjoy. But then for some legal reasons or because it's too risky, not doing it became you know, felt very um uh stupid and unreasonable. Uh and I became angry that uh the the kind of advertising and campaigns that were produced in the agency were just uh you know your usual very mundane stuff. And then these ads were getting plastered or shown in the billboards and TV and you know bus stuff everywhere in in the New York City, became which became kind of uh visual pollution because they were reminders of the this um process. So I wanted to do something about these ads. Uh and at the time I had uh, you know, there was this work that I was doing for one of my clients, and um uh you know, they wanted to promote healthy eating between parents and children. So my idea was uh creating stickers, magnetic stickers made out of uh uh uh uh uh shaped in the speech bubble that uh you can place on your refrigerator so the parents can you know write a message to their kids, hey, you know, there is uh yogurt inside the fridge, so you know, don't forget to eat it. Because you know, there's a culture of putting photographs and magnets on the refrigerator. So I thought that presented this very simple idea of the speech bubble on the on the uh uh on the refrigerator, and obviously the client didn't make that. So then I thought, hmm, maybe I can use that speech bubble idea uh and put that on top of ads on the street so that not parents but people can write the messages on the ads. So that became the um the idea for the bubble project. So, you know, I at the time, you know, I think I spent about a thousand dollars, which was big money for me because I was uh young starting, you know, an art director, produced uh uh thousands, ten thousand stickers or thirty thousand stickers in the shape of speech bubbles. And wherever I went, uh on the streets of New York, I placed the stickers and the speech bubbles on top of ads. Uh and I remember still today, uh when I shared these ideas with some friends and my boss and the agency, they thought, you know, why are you wasting your time doing this? It costs money, nobody's gonna write anything interesting. So they were against it. You know, don't waste your time. You know, this is not a great idea. But there was something inside of me that I thought, I think it's gonna be a fun project. So I went ahead, put my money in there, and then I did this project. Uh, there was something that told me that, you know, when I put something there, people are gonna write it. Soon enough, uh, whenever I went back, I did see really interesting, funny commentary that people wrote because New York City is a place where people walk a lot on the street, and there are all kinds of people with sense of humor. So they wrote all kinds of really, really interesting things. So I ended up photographing them. And this is, you know, we're talking about mid-90s, 1995, 99, maybe six, seven, so it's a long time ago. This is a pre-social media, you know, where there was an internet, but there was no social media. So I had uh, you know, for me it was a very therapeutic experience because I would always carry the sticker with me, and I would put stickers on top of the ads. And I thought, well, for every ad that got killed in the agency, I could create hundreds of new ads, right? That are infinitely more interesting. And I took photos, and then I just set up a simple website, bubbleproject.com, and I uploaded these images. And um, you know, some people would come and take a look, 50 people a day, I I saw the traffic. Uh, and then I realized one day the website had crashed, and I thought, well, you know, what the hell what happened? Realizing that um uh uh there was this blog at the type called Boeingboeing.net uh that just you know features some fun projects on the internet, that featured a very small article about my project, and that made the project go viral. Uh that was the first time in my life that I had experience of being part of a viral project. And that event completely changed my life forever, that moment, because then other news and articles came out, even you know, ABC station wanted to interview me. So it really changed my life forever after that.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, I was gonna say from the client uh rejecting the idea from your boss rejecting the idea, cut to them opening them their TVs and seeing the project on TV, feature in your project on TV. It says a lot. And the great thing about it is that the project itself, from what I've heard and what I've researched on, that you actually started getting offers because of messing with these uh billboards and uh posters in the you got offers from other agencies because you've done that.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Yeah, that was the the ironic part because I was basically defacing their ads, right? But then even then they thought this was such a simple creative idea. So I got started to get offers from agencies. Um and uh you know that gave me a huge confidence, you know. I think before that, you my mind was that you know, in order to make an idea happen, uh you depend on the clients, their money, depend on your boss's approval, and then you have to have a copywriter, a photographer, um you know, the media planner. So you did you depend on all these people to make an idea come to fruition and see in in life. But then this one project that made me uh famous made me realize that I don't really need many people to make an idea. I think nowadays the notion is a lot uh easier because everybody is an influencer, everybody is a content creator, you can have thousands of hundreds of followers, thousands of followers. But back then, in the mid-90s, without social media, it was a lot harder to make your project famous. But there was an internet, and that uh made things possible. So it was a hugely empowering uh experience for me. Uh and with that experience, I gained the confidence that uh you know I can make really meaningful projects on my own. All I need is an idea, and uh, share that idea through the internet. And so I quit my job and I started to do freelance work. Uh, and I really focused from that point on to develop more personal projects, things that I feel passionate about, things that um I wanted to do because I love doing these things. Uh so yeah, that was a big turning point for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

One thing about uh having personal projects, and which is something that I personally do in, I've been doing throughout my career, because it's the motivation for me. Like whenever my client or the company that I work with says something that annoys me, I just, you know, spend that time later at the night or early in the morning on the personal projects, and I feel better, no matter what the company jobs go. But a lot of people, a lot of designers, especially those who work with these big corporations, when you talk about this kind of stuff with them, their question will be like, where do I find the time to do that? So, time management is especially something that comes a big question for everyone when you talk when we talk about personal projects. How do you manage your time and how did you manage your time throughout your career? Because as your personal projects grew and you continued, your career developed and you started getting bigger positions, bigger companies. So I wanted to first ask about the time aspect of these personal projects.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Yeah, and you know, this is one of the questions I probably get asked a lot, you know, how do you manage your time? And it's quite simple because when you are having fun, uh you can always find time. So, you know, you can always find time to watch a football match, right? If you're like a Premier League fan, or if you're a uh you know video uh uh video game fan, or if you're like going out with friends for a drink, or if you go out to watch movies, or go out to ride bicycle. You do these things because they're fun, and you can always find time for that. So I never thought, oh my god, I have to, I'm so tired, I have to, you know, reserve like two hours of my evening time to do my personal project. It was never like that. For me, it was uh I couldn't wait to get to do this project. Just like I cannot wait to watch uh Brazil play, you know, Germany in the World Cup, or like I'm gonna make this Lego set I just ordered, or I'm gonna go out for a drink with my friends, I'm gonna go out for a bike ride in the park. These are fun things that I could do. Always find time to do it. So time has never been an issue because it's just fun for me to work on these personal projects.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yes, exactly. I completely agree on that. And one thing that I wanted to ask is that you've been a creative director at Google, at Facebook, at Instagram, you've been an executive vice president of marketing. At Samsung. Any designer that wants to get to this level, wants to get these positions throughout their career in the future. What do you think are the steps? What was the effect of the personal projects, the portfolio, the CV? I wanted to know about getting to that level. What do you think was the main steps that defined these moves for you?

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Well, I think different people have different career paths. And I can only speak for myself, how I had my career path. And I can give 100% of credit to my personal projects for being the reason why I was able to have this career. Because of the bubble project. And it started all started with that bubble project. I mean, even before, I would say all the work that I did in my art school, those were the free creative experiences, experiments that I had, and I had that in my portfolio. And then the bubble project with the sticker happened. That's when I started to have offers from agencies. And that because of that particular project, I was hired by Troga 5, which is one of the most creative agencies in the world by founded by David Troga. You know, I he interviewed me because he was curious about the Bubble Project. And remember, I had zero pieces, produced, produced pieces in my advertising time in the four years. So in a typical scenario, it would be impossible to get it into a great agency without any portfolio piece in advertising. But uh David Droga saw my portfolio, which was all full of my art school project and the bubble project. And right then he offered me a job to join his agency because he loved that. And then everything evolved from that. You know, that you know, when I was hired at Google, and same thing for Facebook and at Samsung, they all loved this personal project. It wasn't the project that I did at uh these companies. And of course, you know, uh at Trugger5 and Google and Facebook, I did more creative projects, and those actually helped for me to get jobs in the next place. But really, it was Project of the Bubble project or the world's image or drawings for my grandchildren that I do with my parents that really touch, I think, people's heart and their mind, and that's why they uh offer me a job. Uh and you know, there is a big difference between uh the project you do at agencies or big companies like Facebook or Google or Samsung to the project you do for yourself. Because in the end, people looking at it, the project in your portfolio, they're also a person, right, with heart, with ideas. When they see the professional projects, you know, these are projects that were done to uh help the company to sell their product and services. And although they could be very creative, uh, they're never going to have the same kind of uh uh sincerity or personality or the heart and the spirit of personal projects. Because personal project is unique to you, you know. Uh you are the one who did it, and I think it really touches people more than any other project. So that's why I think personal projects are so pop, so powerful, because people see that and they feel something, right? It's hard to feel something deeply emotional when you're looking at a campaign for a big brand. Yeah, but you can really feel something when you're looking at someone's personal expression. So that's a big difference, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Hey everyone, Sajot here. First of all, thank you for listening to the podcast. I wanted to quickly let you know about our merge drops. Right now, I'm wearing one of our designs, which I really like, which is about when designers end up doing everything from design to copy to video and even social media. Our merch store is full of cool designs, especially made for graphic designers to wear. So make sure you check out our merch store. Also, our website is live. 2thestudio.com is live. Our website now has the complete archive of 2studio videos, two stocks episodes, and exclusive interviews and articles only available on 2thestudio.com. So make sure you check out our new website. And finally, if you want to support us and you like what we are making and you want to actually help us to be able to create more content like this, you can join 2studio on our Patreon account. You can also get discounts on our merch by joining our Patreon account. Now back to the episode. Based on, like, for example, the beautiful thing about the let's say the bubble project is that each campaign that these big corporations do, these big companies, these agencies do, their goal is to interact with the audience. And the bubble project is directly interacting with the other. So that's something that if you could do it, like I'm thinking about like from the perception of the agencies that I started calling you is that if this person can't do it with just one cloud, imagine the possibilities of you know bringing this person to this other project. It's just about exploring that creativity that you see, which funny thing is, the other agencies stop you from exploring it. So that's very important, I would say, for recruiters. That's where the studio founders, company owners, to let the creatives to actually explore their creativity.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Precisely. Uh, I think that's what, as you mentioned, that's what uh the agencies saw. It was, you know, because advertising is usually one-way communication, right? You're just screaming at people, look at me, take a look at this product, you know, buy this. Um and rarely, even with social media, I think, well no, now with social media, things are a lot different because, you know, below the post, there is a comment, you can write a comment, you can respond. But uh back then, at least, there was no way of interacting. And it's still in large part, the advertising is just the one way. You know, most of the people hate looking at advertising. When my nine-year-old son uh sees the ad on the YouTube video, he cannot wait until he can skip the split clock. So I think still uh brands and uh agencies uh still have the opportunity to really think about how the ads are done, so it's it's more relevant, it's more conversational. Uh but I think uh many going back to the personal projects, uh many of the things that I do is uh is a creative problem solving. Uh if it's about you know creating dialogue between advertiser and the everyday person on the street, or if it's about uh rethinking the letters of the alphabet, or if it's about helping my 80-year-old parents to connect to their grandchildren via social media, it's all about problem solving. Uh, and I think you know, anyone can see, you know, if this person can solve this kind of a communication problem, they can solve our brand's uh challenges to communicate better with uh with our clients in a way that's authentic, in a way that's uh effective. Uh because I think you know the big uh word here now, especially with social media, is uh brands uh have to be authentic, right? Because otherwise you're just scrolling down, you're skipping the button. So that's I think what a lot of uh agencies and brands see is how to find somebody who can think uh and execute an idea in an authentic way.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah, one thing that you mentioned that I wanted to actually talk with you is that you actually looked at your father's happiness as a designer as a problem that needs to be solved, which led to him right now being a celebrity on TikTok with two, I think, 2.5 million followers and you know the famous Grandpa Chan. So I wanted to uh hear the story for our audience to hear the story of the creation of this project, this personal project that it starts with uh sentimental motivation rather than career, rather than designs and everything. It's about you as a son trying to make your father happy, and that's the beauty of it. I just wanted to hear about that.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah. So um I uh had my first child in 2015. Um I was in New York at the time, and then my parents were living in Brazil at the time. So after a few months uh of his birth, they came to visit us and take a look at their grandchild. So, you know, we're having dinner one day in my house and we're having a conversation, and then my father asked me, Oh, I wonder what Astro will become when he grows up. Um and I said, Okay, um, why do you suddenly ask that question? And he said, Well, because I won't be around, you know, when he grows up. And when he said that, it really struck me immediately, uh, because uh uh I never had that, I never thought about that possibility. Uh so it just made me sad immediately. Wow, by the time Astro is 20 years old, most likely my parents won't be around anymore. Um and my nephews, two of the my father's obviously grandchildren, were also living in Brazil, had just recently moved to Korea. So, you know, my father was uh going through, I think, some depression because he had spent every day with his grandkids, my nephews in Brazil, and all of a sudden they're no longer there anymore. So you and he was retired in Brazil, and he was watching, just spending his whole time watching TV at home, not doing anything interesting. And I became very concerned that uh if he continues like this, he's gonna age very quickly. Um so I started to think, well, it was a he was a problem that needed to needed to be solved. So I thought, you know, growing up, I always was impressed about his natural talent to draw. Uh so I thought, what what if we could draw for his grandkids, uh his everyday uh activities, and share that on Instagram. So he and I asked him, you know, uh I shared his idea with him and he thought about it and he liked it. Okay, that's something I can do. Um and as an 80-year-old, at the time he was in the late 70s, I suppose, and then uh I taught him how to use Instagram. You know, it was a big family project. You know, my mother got involved because he she likes to write, so she wrote the stories. Uh, my father drew, and then my sister uh translated the text in Portuguese, I translated the text in English, and then we posted to Instagram. And again, that was also a huge uh uh turning point in their life, uh, because that project also went viral. Uh and it was, you know, this story was shared by major news outlets around the world. And it changed their life completely and forever because now they were, you know, they were becoming famous, and you know, if brands wanted to do collaborations with them, so now they're making money, now they're you know, staying active through this project, they're feeling really great, and also most importantly, uh, you know, we have a a throve of uh uh rich stories that have they have left behind for my children. So when they grow up, they can look at this drawing and the stories and know more about what kind of person their grandfather and grandmother were.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Apart from the amazing drawings and stories, great dance moves as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah, and that's that's a that's a separate, a little bit separate story. So we started with uh uh drawing with my grandchildren, drawings for my grandchildren on Instagram. So that was going really well. And then the COVID uh started, and then they were already in Korea, they moved to Korea to stay closer to my sister's family. And then it was also a problem because they couldn't go to gyms anymore or outside because of the COVID. That's when my sister, Miru, had the idea of using TikTok so she could teach my parents to dance so that you know they could in the apartment move with music. So she started to post uh their TikTok dance moves on TikTok, and that went again viral, and now they have an over 2.5 million followers. Yeah, yeah. It was it's been an amazing project.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, it's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. A lot of your projects, especially personal projects, have a sense of humor in them. Uh, especially one of my most favorite projects of yours is the Word as an image book, which each one of the pieces is just amazing creativity, amazing design. Uh, this humor, do you think it comes from a reaction to the seriousness of your daytime jobs from a creative director at these big companies, or is it just something personal or something intentional that you bring it?

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah, uh it is true that a lot of my work has humor in it. I think that um uh it has to do with my background. Uh, you know, I grew up in Korea. Uh the country is uh um went through a very traumatic time because of the Korean War. So big tragedy. And I think a lot of uh places that went through traumatic tragedy uh end up having some kind of uh a humor in it because that's the only way, right? You can have a sense of reality and also uh some relief from that heaviness of the tragedy. And then growing up in Brazil, Brazil is a very, very happy country. You know, people love to have fun and party. So I think a lot of got a lot of sense of humor from Brazil. So and I realized um doing this project that humor is one universal element that uh breaks all the barriers, right? Because when you're smiling, you're open to these new ideas. So if you want to communicate something that may be challenging, complete, complete, you know, complex, if you can make someone smile, then you have done already a huge step towards connect with connecting with that person. I think I realized that by doing my project is that humor is a great way of uh connecting with people anywhere around the world, because uh with that smile, your uh more uh possibilities of connecting will happen automatically. And I just also love funny stuff personally.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Yes, it's true. The reaction from you know uh this cultural backgrounds, I'm from Iran, and you know, the pressure of the news that we get somehow it turns into humor, into memes, into funny designs and stuff like that. So it's really nice. Uh, one thing that I wanted to ask is that do you have a favorite personal project that when you look at it just you know makes you smile, makes you feel happy that you've did it?

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Yeah, I I think uh my personal favorite personal project must be the one with my parents, joined for my grandchildren. And you know, I've done lots of personal projects, small to big, long-term, short term. But this one is very special to me because it's has changed my parents' life in a good way. And this is going to also have an impact in my children. When they grow up, they're gonna be able to see. So this is gonna it's going to also have a positive impact in my children's uh life. Uh and that's why I think uh this project is so dear to me. And you know, one thing that um I like to share with your audience who is watching this video is that I really truly believe that uh creativity is not only for designers or artists or filmmakers or you know, or or authors. Every anybody and everybody uh is has a creative potential. And as you can see with the drawings from my grandchildren, it didn't require my design skills or my um you know, creative director skills. It was a simple problem solving, right? I had to connect my father to my son for the future. So using the medium of social media, I was, you know, I had this one idea, uh, and that really made the big difference. So because I, you know, when I speak to people, often people say, Oh, you know, you're so creative, only you can do things like that. Uh, and that's just not true. I think the whole myth about creativity is that only the artist type can do creative stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yes. And that's something that's really, to be honest, annoyed me when I was younger, especially with my friends who were like painters and stuff like that. And whenever we talked about graphic design, they were like, oh, that's so corporate. It's like, you know, you become a slave to these corporations, you don't have any creativity. But it's about the mentality. It's not just about the work and the outcome of each project, it's about the mentality. And the beautiful thing about uh your project with your father is that you brought that mentality of problem solving, not the result of a graphic designer or of a creative director. It's about looking at life in the same way as a problem solver.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Exactly. Yeah. So that's precisely uh one message that I would like to share. Maybe there are two. The second one is that uh I think a lot of people uh have great ideas. Okay, I have this idea for a book. I have this idea of opening this special cafe, or have this idea of making this painting. Uh, but then often you get uh swept away by the busyness of life, and that idea gets you know in the shelf in the back of your mind. Uh for me, one thing that I take is very seriously is you know, whenever I have this idea, uh, is to transform my idea into an action. You know, I want to make that idea and just go ahead and do it without wasting time, without overthinking, without questioning, oh, will it work? Will it not work? Do people like it or not? And I think a lot of people, including designers, get stuck in that insecurity, and sometimes that produces laziness. Oh my god, I'm not sure. Let me think about it a little bit more, and then time passes, and then you know the project never happens. So my I think what really defined my career uh is as you mentioned uh Sujat, is that attitude, right? Is that is to make these ideas. So because ideas are nothing until you make it, right? So that's one message that I would like to share with your audience is that uh no matter where you are, no matter how rich or poor or creative or non-creative a position that you have, we all deal with problems in our lives personal problem, family problem, political problem, society problems. And I think you can always use your creativity to make a difference for you and for others. And the the the the most important thing is to do it and and then not only do it, but also share it with others. Other people.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yes, exactly. This is something that, for example, motivated me to start to the studio, to start, you know, going back, looking at the history of design, looking at the history of iconic creatives, designers, influential designers. It's about that mentality. It's not just about the work itself. Because, you know, for example, when we talk about Art Dua, the work itself doesn't work today. But it's about the mentality of changing the perception of graphic design at their period of time. And what you've done, which is for me the beautiful thing about it, is that it's about changing the perception of corporate work and having a personal life as an artist, as a designer, as a creative, that can happen. Always it's like, no, if I let myself go into the hands of these big corporations, my creative will drain out. Or, you know, I won't have time for this. I won't have time for that. But the beautiful thing about what you've done is that you actually went the other way around. It's because of the personal projects that you went to these uh big corporations. One thing that I really love about your portfolio is that there's not one style that you made that your style, that you would stuck to it, and you just use that style. You went into different mediums, different styles, and you've been an advocate for that. How important do you think for creatives and designers to actually go through different mediums, different styles, and just exploring this difference between each one of them?

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Uh well, first of all, thank you for your comment about uh how I was able to pursue my personal project and just one commentary about that, how personal and um corporate can coexist. Because I think a lot of people have a hard time separating those things, right? Okay, I'm gonna work nine to five, and then when I'm gonna come home, I'm gonna do my little projects, and I'm not, you know, like I'm gonna hide this so that people at work don't know about this because I'm afraid if they know, they're gonna think that I'm wasting, you know, precious time at work. Um, you know, I believe that uh they don't um these are not separate, you know, they actually help each other. Uh because uh when you're working on personal projects, you know, you're approaching things in a very fresh way, you're solving the problems without the usual um restrictions of the corporations. So you're creative, fresh, and by doing this personal project, you can bring the same uh approach of uh problem solving into the work environment and vice versa, because you also learn uh how to make an idea scale or how to produce an idea, how to work more effectively with other people at your workplace, so you can bring that lessons to then the personal project. So I really believe these two worlds can coexist and can uh complement each other. Uh so that's that's one point. And then to your uh second question, um, which was can you remind me again?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

The the style, and not other styles, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Yeah, the various style, um, I don't think it's a good or bad thing, you know, if you have a one style and you stick to that for the rest of your life, um, and there are plenty of successful designers and artists who do that. You know, if you look at Keith Herring, right, he did this line doodle his whole life, and he's very, very successful for doing that. And there are plenty of other artists who have done it. For me personally, um I get bored. I'm a restless person. Uh, I'm constantly, you know, I I like new experiences, I like new challenges. So for me, it's more fun to uh work with different medium um and experiment with it. So it just for me is uh is more fun and more fulfilling experience to to experiment it, you know. Like as a graphic designer, for instance, um you tend to work mostly in two-dimensional medium, print uh or digital, uh, but not necessarily on three-dimensional things or you know, product design. So that's why I wanted to push myself to uh work on more product-focused things like developing clocks and watches and little sculptures, and I really enjoy learning new skills and experimenting this, you know, experimenting with new media. And I think those things also uh help me uh with my career because my potential employer can see, well, this person is really um know how to work in and adapt in the new environment and also just in general problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Is there any personal project that you're working on right now?

SPEAKER_03 49:36

So, you know, I just uh finished my contract uh with uh Samsung after two years and several months uh working in Korea, and this was a very corporate job, you know, is uh is a big company, and it was a very demanding job. Uh so unfortunately I really couldn't work as much as much as I wished on personal project. So I just moved back to New York. Uh, and it's really nice feeling to be back because you know Korea is a very clean place, and you know, people are uh adhering to the rules of societies. Uh and New York is the opposite, right? It's crazy and chaotic, you know, it's not orderly, and you can see all kinds of craziness happening. So uh there are you know good things and bad things on the both sides, but one thing that's for me is inspiring is to see again the craziness and diversity. So I'm slowly getting back to the rhythm of uh uh being inspired again. Uh but right now I am um focusing on setting up my home and my family. Uh I want to do more projects uh with sorry, the dog is barking, with my my children. Uh they're at their nine and five, and they are at that age, uh they're highly creative. You know, they're drawing all kinds of stuff, having all kinds of uh fun ideas. So I think that my next project will involve something either with my children or doing something on the streets, because again, you know, New York is such a street-driven place. So I want to do something about the streets of New York or with my children. But I I I'm I'm still I'm not really sure. And that's you know, maybe there's another message that I would like to share, uh, is that uh, you know, as a creative person, uh I have a lot of anxieties. Uh and sometimes you're in a creative rut and you start asking yourself, well, am I good? Have I lost the the creative juice? Am I able to come up with the new projects? Um and I think that's okay, you know, that's just a part of the process. Uh and I think I'm going through that process right now. Um because I haven't done anything interesting in terms of personal project. I feel a bit anxious because it's been a while. Uh so but I'm I'm sure I'm gonna be able to overcome as soon as I just you know keep my hand dirty as I'm making stuff.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

We can wait, we can wait. Although you have your favorite one, it's ongoing. Grandpa Chan is ongoing.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Yeah, that's an ongoing project. That's true. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

One last question that I wanted to ask you, which I asked all of our guests, is that if you had to pick your top five favorite, let's say either graphic designers, designers, artists, influential uh people in your life, your top five, who would it be?

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Well, the first person that comes to my mind is uh Tibor Carmen. Uh Tibor uh is a New York-based designer. Uh he is probably one of the most influential designers that um uh influenced many designers um in New York. You know what, and he is the one who you know most famous for doing the colors magazine for Benetton. Uh, he did a lot of interesting objects that are sold in MoMA. Uh one of the reasons why I like him so much is because um he is a very conceptual designer, and uh he also dealt with uh social commentary and political commentary. Uh he also worked with the multiple media, he was very prolific. You know, he published books, he made objects, he made uh strange social experiments, and so I um I find uh one of the most inspirational figures in my life, and I was uh lucky enough to meet him before uh he died. Uh so certainly uh I find him very inspiring. I also am very uh influenced by Marcel Duchamp, the Dadais uh artist who turned everyday objects into art again for his uh uh his creativity of defining things and for highly conceptual work. Uh you know, he put a urinal and put it into the gallery and called it art. Um so I find him very, very inspiring. Um who else? Uh I I love Banksy for the his the street uh artwork. Um he's again uh he has done I like his uh provocativeness and uh his sort of naughtiness, you know, by hanging his own artwork in the museum, his commentary uh on society and the politics, and how he's also a brilliant uh marketer, you know, staying anonymous, and he does his social stunts. So um I find it very inspirational. And also I find my inspiration in music a lot. Um so one of my favorite uh musicians is uh Miles Davis. I love jazz, and uh you know one of the reasons why I love Miles is because he, unlike many other musicians, has redefined his career through uh experimenting with new musical style from bebop to cool jazz to fusion to electronic music. She never stopped experimenting. Um those are three, four artists who is uh the last last person um that I find inspiration. Uh maybe I'll just stick with this four for now. Top four. Yes, yes, top four artists.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

And thank you for coming to Two Stux to connect with us, uh with our audience. It's been a pleasure to hear these stories, your side uh your ways of looking at different problems and the ways, the amazing ways that you solve them.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Saja, thanks so much for contacting me. As I said, um you know, after working two years and some months in the corporate job for my past uh few years, uh, I really needed uh to get back to my mindset of doing personal products again. And I think in a funny way, universe has its own way of connecting things and making things happen. Uh so when I got the invitation from you, because I saw your uh Instagram channel and you feature some of the most uh amazing uh designers that may not have may not be uh as recognized nowadays because some of them are from the older generation, but obviously you are create you are really uh knowledgeable about design and the way you create content for your social media is really amazing. Thank you. So for me, uh just talking to you and being invited has been a huge boost uh uh for my self-confidence, and I just needed to get back to this mindset. So I cannot thank you enough for contacting me and spending time with me.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

I really appreciate it. That that means a lot to me, and I would put I I would cut this part of what you told about me, and I put it in my portfolio.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Gili told me that no, I you can put it in your is in your interview, whatever you want to do. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

It means a lot to me. Again, thanks a lot for coming to Two Stacks. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Thank you very much for the invitation.