Twos Talks with Shantell Martin

Shantell Martin went from VJing in small clubs in Tokyo to performing with Kendrick Lamar and some of the most prestigious art institutes in the world. Her black and white works are not planned, but discovered in the moment, forming a visual language shaped by intuition and identity.

In this Twos Talks interview, Shantell Martin shares how live performance, intuition, and personal exploration shaped her journey from drawing in small venues to becoming one of the most recognizable contemporary artists today.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Chantel Martin. Born in London, Chantel Martin is an internationally recognized artist known for her distinctive black and white drawings that explore identity, creativity, and the human experience. Early in her career, after studying graphic design, she moved to Tokyo, where she developed her signature visual language whilst working on live music shows and collaborating with different artists. Soon her work gained global recognition, leading to collaborations with institutions such as the New York City Ballet and projects with artists like Kendrick Lama. Her work has been shown on Times Square, interacting with millions of people and exhibited in some of the most prestigious art institutions in the world. Through her work, Martin continues to explore identity and the act of drawing as a way of thinking. This is Two Stalks with Chantil Martin.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Hello. First of all, I would like to welcome you to TwoStocks. It's a pleasure and honor to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I wanted to start with your introduction to the world of art and what was it about drawing that was appealing to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I think my first introduction was with uh cartoons, you know. I I kind of uh would love, you know, waking up as a kid watching Saturday morning cartoons on the TV. And I think that was my first introduction into, you know, kind of a drawn world, so to speak, because a lot of those cartoons were originally drawn and imagined by someone and coloured and you know had narratives and stories to them. And so at a very young age, I could imagine myself wanting to be a cartoonist, you know, someone that could create these worlds and imagine them and put stories together and create these characters that all had, you know, different planets and backgrounds and things like that. And so I think that was very much my first introduction.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

And was it a point that you thought that this could be a career?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I didn't know if if it could be a career at that point, but it was like this is something I'm passionate about. You know, I'm very passionate about cartoons, waking up, I devote my time to them, I look forward to them, I get transported into that world. And so I think it was more of this idea of a world that you could visit and be a part of. And then within that, having a passion and a like and a um, you know, kind of an inspiration with that and wanting to kind of do something with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

About the execution of your work, uh the drawing, the especially the fight, the improvisation fight, could you explain a little bit how that takes place?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

It could be small scale, large scale. I'm using different mediums, I'm working in different industries, but the you know, kind of the approach to the drawing is primarily a stream of consciousness in the sense that, you know, if I when I started my career in Japan many, many years ago, I would go to a club or to a venue, and there would either be a DJ or a musician that would start to create music, and then I would be drawing along to that music. And so what I was doing is, you know, I wasn't really planning so much about what I was doing. I knew where I was going to be, what I was drawing on, how that would be showcased to the audience. But then I would allow myself to follow the music as a prompt to see where the pen would go. And sometimes I would bring my hands and other objects in that. But, you know, I think through that style, in the sense of, you know, performing stream of consciousness, improvising, not knowing what you were doing or where you were going, but through that practice of doing that for many years, then I was able to look back at all that work that I did and say, oh, there's a core, there's a recognizable fingerprint to all of the work that I've created when I'm not consciously thinking about it. And when you can look back at all of that work as a way of reflecting, you get to see your own style, your own core, your own fingerprint, your own identity as an artist. And then I would take that. And when I moved to America kind of around 2008-09, that same way that I was drawing stream of consciousness, but in clubs to music and to DJs and dancers, I transferred that and would draw onto objects and people and walls instead.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

And the beautiful thing about your drawing is that, as you mentioned, the pen leads away, it's something that happens in the moment. But when you put them next to each other, there is a visual identity, there is a personal touch to it. Where do you think is the source of that personal like the pen leads the each artist a different way? It's only happening in that way for Chantel Martin's pen.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, you know, we all have our own pen, we all have our own DNA, which makes us unique and individual. And I think that's the same for us as artists and our core. You know, for me, when I look at my work as a whole, the work that I used to do, the work that I do now, and the work that I will do, it's almost like a tale. You know, it's a tale of work that is all connected. For someone else, for a different artist, they might have different chapters where their work looks very different and you know, the approach is very different and the medium is very different. But I think with myself, there is a core, and that's my tale, that's my story, that's my journey as an artist, and that's different for all of us. But to answer your question, I think that core is in all of us. So often when it's, you know, when we ask people, you know, how do you become an artist? How do you find your style? How do you find your identity? Sometimes there's that, I think, uh, an illusion that you have to go out and look at what other people have done. Whereas I believe that we can look inside and extract what we look like as an artist from the inside out. And we can do that in a way almost like I stumbled upon in Japan by drawing live, you know, by uh working stream of consciousness, by being spontaneous, by working intuitively. When you work in those ways where you're not kind of looking at anyone else or trying to be inspired by anyone else, what you actually do is you have that power of reflection and extraction to see, okay, if I'm going to draw a hundred times and I'm not going to think about what I'm doing, is there certain density? Is there a certain theme? Is there a certain um kind of coverage of the paper or the surface that I'm drawing on? Like what are those themes that kind of reoccur? And then that almost becomes your DNA. And I think just like all of us, we have a DNA that makes us, you know, specifically unique to one another.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yeah, yeah. And also there's this beautiful almost integration with graphic design in your work, which is like my field, which there's this layout and text, and like there's this way of putting the words in. Is that pre-planned, the part about the layout, or does that happen in the moment as well? Not the wording itself, but the placement, the style of the typography.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah. So I feel like that is also quite organic, but in a sense, I think it's uh having an internal compass of where things should be. You know, I went to St. Martin's, I studied graphic design, and I specialize in illustration. So even though I'm working as an artist, a fine artist, uh, you know, a philosopher, all those things, my background is in graphic design, my background is in illustration. And I think, you know, coming from that type of um practice, you're taught about balance and composition and and you know, you're you're trained in a way to use that internal compass to see if things feel right on a page. And I think, you know, when I'm creating a drawing or an installation, there is that internal sense of, you know, I put the word here, it doesn't feel right. But if I move the word down, okay, that feels right. I'm gonna leave it there.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

That's that inner struggle that all of graphic designers have. Like we look at words and you're like, a little bit up, a little bit down. That's the fight that always results in a good way, actually. But you mentioned you moving to Japan, and I wanted to know the story behind the reasoning behind that, and what was its impact on the artwork itself? Because as an artist who is working with this self-expressions, a new environment, a new culture, how can it impact your work?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this this week actually, and you know, I think it it's hugely impactful and beneficial for creative people to change their um their surroundings, you know, the the people that they know, the places that they go, the you know, the things that they do. And I believe that because, you know, when I'm born in London, I was raised in London in the UK, you know, that was my world, that was everything I knew. I consciously or unconsciously was a part of that culture, the stereotypes, you know, the class system. Um, you know, if I liked it or not, I was very much a part of the fabric of London and the UK because I didn't know anything else. And after graduating from St. Martin's, I decided that I want to go somewhere else where no one knows me and I do not know anything about that place, so that I can actually really start to figure out who I am. Because it's hard to understand who you are when you have a role and when you have a place. And that place could be within your friend group, it could be with your family, it could be within society, but now you're playing a role and you're embedded in that. And so it's very hard to change or to see who you are if people have kind of um you know decided who you are. And so so moving to Japan, you know, gave me that chance to have a blank canvas, to have a fresh start, um, to approach people, things, situations in a way that felt organic to me and natural to me. And and so, you know, I'm really grateful for that chance to move to a different country. And, you know, at that time, especially when I moved there, you know, we didn't have smartphones. So I moved to Japan in 2003. And to communicate with someone, I needed a big dictionary. You know, you flip through the pages. Uh, and then if I wanted to call home, I would have to figure out how to buy a phone card from someone who didn't speak English and I didn't speak Japanese at the time. And, you know, it it was a big challenge to have that connection with anyone back home. And, you know, what that did is it isolates you and it gives you that fresh start. You know, now you can go to Japan, you pull out your iPhone, you can translate everything, you can talk to your to your mum or your your brother or whoever you want to speak to. And there isn't that real separation. Um, so I'm fortunate that I did it in the time that I did it. But um, I think there's many, many benefits to, you know, going to a different place, going to a different country, even now, um, even when we're still that you know very much connected.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah, that's true. Uh interesting thing is that you go to this new place alone, but again, it's the same place that you start, for example, having the live drawing performances. Yeah. Was it stressful? How did it feel like in the beginning? Like this connection with these new people and the music itself, actually.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah. I don't think stress ever came into it, you know, especially when you're younger. You know, when you're younger, it's just like, I want to do this, I'm gonna do this. You know, it's I think when you get older, I want to do this, what's the consequence of this? What am I not doing if I do this? You know, I think there's a there's a lot more steps that come into your thinking. But I think, you know, uh when you're young, you're kind of naturally wired to just be selfish in the sense of I want to do this and you do this, and you don't think about any of the implications or real kind of um consequences of that. And so, you know, going to Japan was like, I want to move to Japan. I'm gonna move to Japan. Then I was in Japan, and then it was like, well, how do I survive and live and flourish and have fun in Japan? Um, I want to go to clubs, I want to how do I get to clubs for free? I can I draw, so maybe I can draw in clubs. And you know, it's just I think every decision was made just because I wanted to have fun and enjoy myself and make art and be creative.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

And did you end up working with a specific type of musicians like this type of drawing went well with some certain type of music or something?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yeah, I ended up you know working in a couple of different spaces. So I ended up drawing, especially digitally. So I'd use my you know, my Wacon tablet and a drawing software, and to that I mostly used, um, or I should say uh not I mostly used, but I mostly performed in minimal techno clubs. So house, techno, you know, there's there's a beat, there's a DJ, and I'm digitally drawing and zooming in and zooming out and changing the colour. So that was kind of like one genre. And then the other genre was extremely um avant-garde. So, you know, kind of Bluetooth dancers, circuit benders, um, people who were performing with static and you know, strange music and effects and code, people who were live coding. Um, and that lent itself to be more tangible. So drawing under or on overhead projectors that you projected and um or other types of projections and layering, so kind of more organic, tangible, physical to the to the avant-garde stuff, and more digital um and you know, kind of software-based to the minimal techno house stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Now, like from small bands and small clubs in Japan, cut two years later collaboration with Kendrick Lomar, like the medium and the collaboration is kind of the same, but you know, it's such a big figure, you're such a big artist now. How did that collaboration come together, actually?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah, you know, and for me that was a nice project because in a way I see myself as a retired VJ. You know, I I've I've I've VJ'd and I've done visuals to music um occasionally, but you know, in Japan that was my career. And then in the US I've done it here and there.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Oh, you actually DJed in Japan?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Uh well, I should say VJ'd, you know, visual.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Uh I did DJ a little bit, but I realized I prefer to dance versus, you know, I prefer to be on the other side of the DJ booth. So my DJ career, my DJ career didn't last that long. Um, but you know, with regards to the project with Kendrick, you know, just like all my projects, uh, someone reached out to me and said, you know, we love your work, we think it will be a great fit for this. You know, is this something you're available or interested in doing? And so, you know, that conversation came around. And and it's interesting, you know, I I think about this often, you know, there's definitely brands and people that I'd like to work with, but it's very hard to reach out to them and say, hey, I'm an artist, I love your work, like let's do something together. For me, and in my experience, that's never really worked. But if you just focus on doing the things that you love, the things that you're passionate about, you don't care what anyone else is thinking, you just go and do what you're doing, but you make sure that you share that and you show that and you document that, um, then opportunities like this come around because people are seeing your work out there in the world.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yes, exactly. There's this sense of like you wanting to collaborate with someone or a certain brand or something, and the way to get there is sometimes it looks impossible. So it's amazing that you share this insight to that as well. And for the uh project with Kendrick Lamar, did you have like a certain with him in terms of like coming up with the final artwork in both from his side the music, from your side, the artwork? Uh did you have a certain storytelling or theme in mind, or did it happen in the moment based on what each other person was doing?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, I think the idea for that project was it was like organic, you know, the art kind of inspired the music, the music inspired the art. Um, and so, you know, for the visuals itself, you know, a lot of that was kind of done outside of that conversation, but with that influence and inspiration in mind. So we had a conversation together, we inspired each other, and then from that conversation, from that inspiration, from uh some drawing and music that we made together, then you know, we went away and kind of created these visuals for the event.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Uh another amazing project of yours that I personally really love is the New York City ballet. Because when you look at that project, it's at as you mentioned, your style of work happens in the moment, but there's this amazing visual identity that goes on to diff different surfaces, platforms, whether it's a product, whether it's a wall, whether it's a sculpture made of the made out of the typographies. So, how do you approach a project like that where it's gonna go spread out in different surfaces, different uh not different styles, but different like environments?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah. A lot of daydreaming, you know. So something like the New York City Ballet, you know, they have a promenade, a space at the Lincoln Center in New York. And, you know, when they invited me to do that project, I initially went for a walk through of the space. And, you know, they say the ceiling is gold leaf, so we can't really touch the ceiling. Uh the wall is, you know, it's like a beautiful fabric, so we can't really touch the wall. You know, the floor is marble, so we can't really do much with the with the floor. And so a project like that, firstly, you're met with all the limitations. You know, you can't do this, you can't touch this, you know, you can't you can't do anything there. And so how I approached that project first is I was like, well, let me be inspired by who and what this is, this infrastructure, this company, uh, this institution. And so I I went and met all the different departments, the costume department, you know, the back of stage. Um, I interviewed 20 dancers from different kind of uh levels in the company, and I just sat with them and like, why are you here? You know, uh, why don't you do something else? You know, um, what's what brought you here? Why did you work so hard to be here? Um, you know, tell us about your relationship to ballet and dance and this company. And so I had these uh 20 initial interviews, plus the experience of going to all these different departments and speaking to you know different people of the company because that's the foundation of an institution like the New York City Ballet. I didn't want to just come in as an artist and apply my work there. I wanted to come in and have a strong foundation of what it meant and who are the people that construct that space. And so, with these interviews, then I, you know, kind of went back multiple times and just walked around the space. And I thought, you know, what I create here has to be made here and has to be inspired from here. And so then I decided to go to their rehearsals. And so I went to their rehearsals and I started drawing, and I drew these kind of large-scale choreographic drawings that were inspired by the rehearsals of them doing nutcracker and many other dances. And throughout those artworks that I created, I put in words, any words were words that came directly from the interviews that I had with the dancers. And then I thought about the idea of dancing and and you know, kind of the bodies on stage, and and thought about, well, what if the people that come in before to see these shows? Like, what if they could have a moment where they felt like they were on stage or they were a part of the artwork? And that's where the idea came along to, you know, create the floor. So I created this giant floor piece there. Um, and then you know, from there it's almost like one thing leads to another. You know, we have these big, beautiful windows. You know, like, what if I create a massive who are you and have that projected on the outside of the Lincoln Center so that when people are coming, they're primed with this big question of asking themselves like where they are in space, and then they come in and experience this whole installation. And so, you know, for me, there were many moments that all came together. And as a part of that series, I also thought it was important to bring art on stage. So we have um when that series opens, there's a few artist nights where you know people can get, you know, really affordable tickets, and you know, there's a really diverse crowd that comes to support the artist series um at NYCB. And so each of those artist nights, I opened it up on stage. So one night I was doing a live drawing, one night I was interviewing one of their dancers, Silas Farley. Um, one of those nights I collaborated with Justin Peck, uh, choreographer and dancer from the from the studio. Um, and and that was amazing because I got to, you know, kind of be an artist on stage, show people that being an artist can be versatile. You know, you can be on stage uh performing, collaborating, but you can also have the work kind of out there uh that people interact with. So for for me, I I really loved that project. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah, that I mean it shows in the result, it's amazing. And also about this collaboration with music and like even like ballet starting from the days in Japan, the footprints of music collaboration is in your Career. Why do you think uh this always creates such a perfect match with your drawings and music together?

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I've always felt like I'm dancing. You know, my as I'm drawing, the pen is dancing, and you know, it it could be dancing literally to music, or it's dancing to this kind of rhythm or this music in my mind. And so I think behind the line, behind the drawing, there's always been a melody, there's always been a rhythm, there's always been a music. So that's lent itself to this idea of music quite naturally. And so, you know, for myself, um I've always enjoyed kind of being on the other side, you know, making music. Um wait, I'm someone's chat me there. So that I just close this. So um, you know, from from the other side, I've always enjoyed creating those lines to music, but I've always uh enjoyed music myself. So the last few years I've been making music, um, and I'm even making that live with an audience. Uh, and for me, I also say like music is uh it's another form of drawing. You know, I'm not going into a different medium, I'm actually still drawing, I'm just kind of changing the form of it. Um, and so now I draw with music and I draw with words, and I do these spoken word performances and I do these live music performances, and I also have a collaborator who I make music with, and you know, it's not for everyone, but there's a lot of it out there now.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I decided just to put it all up on if our listeners want to actually listen to your music that you're producing, where can they find it?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yep, so you can find my music pretty much everywhere. You know, it's on Spotify, it's on podcasts, and I I think it's on YouTube, and it's you know, everywhere you can pretty much listen to music, you can probably find some of mine.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

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SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah, I think that's why I never was a graphic designer in the end, you know, because you you get a brief and you have to stick to that brief. Uh, I'm I'm someone that, you know, If a brief, I'm gonna get distracted and go in a different direction, you know, and I'm gonna do something completely different. And so I'm not someone that is very good with briefs, and that's why I'm an artist and not a designer. Um, and so the way that it works, you know, there is a collaboration with the client, but there's also a um an understanding. And that understanding is that I'm coming in as an artist and I'm essentially gonna do what I want, um, but I'm gonna have a very clear understanding of, you know, the environment that I'm creating in, uh, the audience that I'm creating for, the canvas that I'm gonna utilize, you know, I have a very strong understanding of those aspects, you know, the future of the art and the space and um, you know, the impact that we're trying to have. And so I have like um, you know, there's a mutual understanding on those things and what we're trying to achieve. But when it comes to the execution or the content of what I'm creating, I'm lucky enough to work with partners and clients that really trust me and believe in the work and are happy to provide that canvas or that platform for myself so that I can come in and have that freedom of creation and expression that is needed to really uh you know grasp the opportunity and make it the most that it can be.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah. And the work itself, for example, it's always black and white. I wanted to know why.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

It's not always black and white, you mostly see the work that is black and white. Yeah, yeah. Then that's you know, the uh the work that I created in Japan for five years as a visual jockey as a VJ, there was a lot of colour in that work. Uh, when I used to draw on people for many years, you know, I would draw on them in colour, with colour. Um, there's definitely been colour. Uh I had a show here in LA, a solo gallery show. There were colourful drawings in that show. But they were much smaller uh and more subtle than the larger black and white works. Um, I've created colourful canvases and works in the past. You know, when I've done fashion collaborations with Puma or other brands, there's color. And so there is colour in the palette that I use, but it's not, you know, the predominant kind of spectrum that I'm using. And I always like to describe it like the black and white work is like a big flag. Uh, and you can see it from a long way away. You're like, oh, like that's Chantel's work, I see it, it's black and white, there's a big flag waving. But below that big flag, there's these other little flags, these other types of mediums and experiments and collaborations where color or code um or other sorts of uh applications are involved.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

And for such as like a work that is coming from self-expressions, for example, your project with in Times Square, now the work itself is coming into communication and contact with other people. That expression changes from their point of view.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

That's fine. My job's done. You know, my job is to create the work, to be proud of the work, uh, to be exploring, to be experimenting, to be questioning, uh, to be challenging myself. And what anyone else thinks of it beyond that is kind of, you know, that's their job. You know, if if if they're curious, they'll dig deeper and try to find out more about the intention of the work. But I don't see it as my job to guide people about what it means or how to interact with it or what to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

And uh in these days, because of the social media, because of like being connected to all these different eyes on your work, finding that unique style, that personal style sometimes is difficult. For a young artist who wants to uh stand on their ground on this style that they think it's their style and they want to continue producing artwork with that style. Is there any specific uh steps that they should take or that they should avoid taking for having a smoother ride in their career?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, I think they need to not care what anyone else thinks. They need to take their time and be patient, and they need to create many opportunities where they don't have time to think about what they're doing. They don't have time to think about what they're drawing or creating. Because when we have that time to think about things, then we start to think about what someone else might do or what someone else has done. Then we start to compare ourselves, then we start to look for inspiration. So if you can challenge yourself where you just say, okay, I'm gonna draw to music, I'm gonna draw blindfolded, I'm gonna draw and like, you know, for this many minutes and not think about the drawing, I'm gonna, you know, use these different techniques and just create the work, create the work, create the work, and then look back, have that power of reflection to see who I am within the work, and then start to build from that fingerprint. I think that's when you really start to see people find their true identity. You know, there's definitely artists out there that say, well, what's gonna get the most likes? What's gonna get the clicks? What can I make a video about? What's a nice technique that looks good on camera so that I can, you know, have this wow factor, then lots of people are going to share it and you go viral or whatever. Um, you know, those things didn't exist when, you know, people like myself started to make art. Um, you know, it was just about who was around you. But, you know, if you're just making art for people to click on it and to become, you know, kind of famous or well known in that way, then you're not really making work that's true to yourself. And I don't know if that's going to be sustainable. You know, we want to have especially, and I'm talking about artists. If you're you see yourself as a designer or or something else, and and you're happy to just come in and like, you know, mimic or copy or do those things, that's one path, and you know, that's your choice. But if you really want to use this lifetime as a way of self-extracting, a way of self-expression, a way of self-exploration, then you have to do what's true to yourself, for yourself, and for no one else.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

And also, like, as you mentioned, right now we call it this viral moments that, like, for example, you see your artwork being shared on social media, or you see it on different platforms, even like in like billboards. You experienced it that in like many different stages of your career, whether it's in Times Square, whether it's in Art Puzzle. What is that impact on your career? Did you do you think when it happened that okay, what should be the next step from here, or was it just part of this personal journey?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

For me, it's a part of that tale, is that tale and that body of work. You know, everything is connected and everything leads to the next thing. You know, like calling my work in Times Square, you know, we had over one and a half million people come through that installation. Do I really see anything come from that? Not really, but that's more people who have been exposed to my work that might recognize it the next time they see it. Or there might be a uh a moment in those works that have some meaning or some purpose behind them. You know, within the works that I create, especially my installations, I try and put permission and messaging behind those works that enable people to do something or have some sort of tool within their life. And for the Times Square project, a meditation of lines, the goal of that project was just to introduce the idea of meditation and walking and being calm in a big city. And so, for you know, my hope for that project is that a fraction of those people that came through somehow were inspired to incorporate either meditation, walk-in, or calmness within their daily life.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

And talking about the impact of the artwork itself, how important do you think is for the artists and their artwork to have this sense of giving back to their community in not in terms of like uh doing something directly, but contributing their voice and their opinion on different, like especially these days with different social issues or social impactful stuff that is happening?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yeah. I think everyone is different and it's different for everybody. Um, you know, some people feel like I don't have to participate in social practice or events or situations because the way that they live their life is factoring in those moments. You know, some for some of us, the way that we live our lives is a resistance, you know, it is a form of activism. We don't have to be out there being uh, you know, um uh an activist. The way that we are living our life and the spaces that we're in and the projects that we're trying to create and the skins that we are in, and all of those things, just by being ourselves and being successful of ourselves is a form of resilience, is a form of activism. Uh, for other people, they might want to incorporate certain themes and um, you know, uh projects into their work and speak to those uh things more directly. And and so I think you know, for every artist, it's it's it's definitely different. Um, and some people might want to make a theme or a challenge, uh, their whole body of work, um, and and that's okay, you know, and I think there is that spectrum for being creative, and we should make room for all of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

I've read in your previous interviews that you felt there's a difference between yourself and your environment when you were in the United Kingdom, and that became the motivation to move to Japan. And for young artists that feel that way, what do you suggest to, you know, find their personal space, find their personal voice in this vast world of art?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah. You know, when I was living in the UK, you know, we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have Instagram, we didn't even really have the internet when I was growing up. You know, that was something that came around a little bit later. So when you felt trapped in your environment, you didn't know where to go. You know, you went to the library and looked at pictures in books or you you watched cartoons, but you know, apart from that, there weren't that many examples. And I think now we have so many resources online, and I think it's easier for people to find a community. Um, but I'm also a big fan of finding a community or a group of people or friends or collaborators that are really diverse. You know, I think what happens today is you find your click and you all listen to the same music and you all dress the same and you all like kind of think the same. Um, you know, there's no room for really like opportunity to figure out who you are within those spaces. And so, you know, I've always enjoyed having a really wide spectrum of friends and collaborators, people who look different, think different, come from different places, have different beliefs, agree with me on some things, disagree with me on other things. Um, and I think that really creates like a nice colorful weld and palette. And so, you know, kind of my advice would be, you know, find your community, but also find people who think different. Um, find people who have a common interest, but you know, it's not every single interest is the same. Uh, you have online, you know, for as many bad things about being online in social media, there's good things and there's communities and there's groups and there's schools, and there's ways that you can learn to do things, and there's places that you can share your work. So utilize the tools that are out there and in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

And apart from uh our presence in the real world, you have a strong presence in the digital world as well. You have your you are active on your social media channels, you are appear in your YouTube videos, you have a podcast show. Uh I wanted to know how important do you think as an artist to be present in these digital media platforms for either a personal choice or growth?

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah, I I feel like I'm just very lucky perhaps on social media because I don't really give it any time or attention, but I have some numbers. You know, they're not like amazing in the spectrum or the scheme of things, but you know, I'm very lazy when it comes to social media. I know, you know, you hear people you should be posting every day or every week or you should be doing this. And I don't do any of that, and I've never done any of that, you know. Um I really dislike that there's algorithms that you need to appease and play to. Um, and so, you know, I'm a big poster and ghoster, you know, I'll post and ghost. Um and my podcast, you know, I have the the podcast called What's the Point, where I sit down with contemporary artists from a spectrum of successes and industries and ages, and I talk to them about what's the what's the point in making art and how they got there and who it's for and where they want it to go. But in a way, that's selfishly for myself. Um, and if other people listen to it and they can be inspired by it or they get something from it, that's amazing. Um, but I'm not necessarily doing it because I want it to be a big podcast. I'm doing it because I think there's a power in talking to artists where they are at now, and almost in a way, capturing these kind of oral diaries or histories of these particular artists that have come across my path. Um, so I I think the long way of answering that is um I have a social media presence, but it's not one that I utilize, it's not one that I actually do something with. I think all the time I should find someone to run it or do something with it, um, but I haven't done that, so I don't think I care enough. So I think for the younger folks, I think for the most part, it's about creating that physical community. You know, if you're wake, you're making work, find places and spaces to show that work, you know. Um, you know, find communities and events where you can go and participate. And I I think those are way more important than uh, you know, kind of appeasing uh these big industries that are there to kind of steal our time and our attention.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

And also there is this way that you look at all these different aspects, like whether the artwork itself, as you mentioned, for example, even if one million people uh interact with the artwork itself, you don't necessarily care about like their take. It's about you know, you your job is done. Same way as you mentioned on your social media, same way on the live performances. Now, this is something really inspirational for our young artists and artists in general. And if you had to give some suggestions to find that source of, you know, being fearless against all these arts that we see around us, where they can find it.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, I think that's a tough question. Um, and I, you know, I should also add to that, you know, with social, with these projects that I do with the podcast, I want to do anything that I create, I want it to be a high standard. You know, if I'm doing a podcast, even if no one's listening, I want it to sound good, I want it to be high quality, I want the website to look good, like I want the R list to look good. If I'm doing an installation, I want it to feel like it's done to the high standard and quality. And that's for my own kind of level of um uh I don't know, challenge, acceptance, you know. I that that's my internal meter. Um I guess that internal confidence, you know, for me it's something that came at an early age. You know, I grew up in Southeast London in a very white, racist part of the country, and I was brown with an Afro. Uh, and so at a very young age, when you're made to walk out uh of the house and look different from everyone else and be treated different from everyone else, um, and kind of be uh an individual in that sense, I think you know that at a very young age I had to have that confidence to be in my own skin and kind of walk down those streets and be an individual and be an outsider in that way. And so I think some of that has carried through with me. But I think a lot of it is when people get off of social media a lot more than they are now, they're gonna have less moments where they're comparing themselves to others. And I think when we have that comparisonitis, when we are seeing what everyone else is doing and everyone else is making and what everyone else is creating, I think that chips away at our confidence. And the more that we create spaces that are in person and that they're online, and we can show our friends our work and we can get honest feedback of the work that we're creating, or when we create these safe online spaces where we can get honest feedback and criticism and communication, I think those are the things that feed your confidence. Um and also just the idea of not being afraid to fail, you know, you no one's gonna be great overnight. We all have this journey in this life to improve, to practice. Um, you know, I started doing kung fu last year. Uh, you know, I was very unfit, I wasn't exercising, I wasn't working out, and so I decided to do kung fu. And, you know, the class is a mixture of adults and kids, and everyone is like fitter than me, everyone is more flexible than me, uh, everyone has a better memory than me. Um, everyone just seems to be better at everything in that class than me. And, you know, very early on, I could be like, this is not for me, I'm terrible at it, I could quit. Or I could show up two, three times a week and just practice and every time get a little bit better. Um, and over the last year, you know, I'm on my third belt, like now I'm an orange belt. Oh, nice. Um, thank you. And it's it's like, but I know it's deserved. I've worked for it. I understand that I've improved a little bit constantly over the That period. And that practice has given me confidence. I know that I still have a long way to go and that there's a lot that I don't know. But just by showing up for myself and practicing and working hard and trying to judge myself not by anyone else's standards, then I've built up my own confidence. And I think that is the same within arts. You know, you can't judge yourself by anyone else's standards. You have to make sure that you're doing a little bit constantly over a long period of time. That's why you need to have patience. Um, and you need to put the work in because when you put that work in, it feels deserved. And when it's deserved and the work is there, the confidence is there as well.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Yeah, there's while you were saying that, I connected it to like a personal journey that I recently experienced, like a couple of months ago. I started doing yoga, and at first I was like, because it's promoted as this peaceful way of sporting. And at first I was like, where is the peace? Everything hurts. Like I can't see anything. But then, as you mentioned, after a while, still the pain is there, but there is this joy in that pain. And now, as you beautifully mentioned, is that it's the same with the work itself because the hustle is the same. Sometimes, as designers, or as artists, we deal with difficult clients, difficult, you know, projects itself, maybe. But the beauty sometimes is in that difficulty, and it's a very nice connection that you mentioned here.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Yeah, no, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

What about like the graphic design impact on you? You studied graphic design. I wanted to know, like, when you look at your work, when you look back, what it what do you think is the effect of those days?

SPEAKER_00 45:54

You know, I think uh, you know, I've always loved typography, and I think that's what led me eventually to create in Chantel Sands, you know, a couple of years ago to have my own typeface out there. But, you know, I think also with with graphic design, I think it's also about balance, you know, it's about patience, um, it's about experiments and exploration. Um, and I think it's also about consistency and um standards. You know, I think there's definitely when it comes to graphic design, there's bad graphic design, then there's good graphic design. Um, and the good graphic design is very obvious, you know. I think um, so I think there's also that sense of just like the practice and the hard work that needs to go into being a graphic designer. Uh, it it might look easy to move a few things around a page, but uh, there's uh an incredible amount of skill that goes into that.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Yeah, exactly. That's true. And also one last question that we always ask our guests is that if you had to choose your top five, top three artists that you know inspired you throughout your career, resonated, like you felt resonated with their work, they could be graphic designers, they could be musicians, painters, like in any field.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Uh, I'm a huge fan of uh Bjork and the way that she has explored and experimented with her work, and I've always been inspired by that, uh, the use of technology as well. Um, you know, Zaha Hadid, just a variety of work from designing furniture to paintings to creating these epic buildings that will be around for a very, very, very long time. Um, you know, artists, uh like friends that I've I went to school with, like Christiana S. Williams is an incredible Icelantic artist that lives in the UK. Um, and just she's always had an eye for the future and a consistent style and identity, which has always been inspiring. Um, and I think kind of like later on, more recently, like my famous painter is uh a lady called Sharma Golden, you know, and I love her work and I I love the imagination in the work and how it truly looks like her within the work and the colours that she uses. Um, and then you know, lastly, uh who else is kind of that I find inspiring. Um, you know, I guess lastly, someone like Goldie. I don't know if you know Goldie, but like drum and bass, you know, kind of producer, DJ, vocalist, um, just for the rawness of the work and the consistency and like also like a sense of futurism in his work of being ahead and creating something that was unique and and you know, really making culture at that time that didn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Uh, once again, I'd like to thank you for coming to TwoStocks, sharing your story, sharing your amazing insights and suggestions for young artists, upcoming designers, artists, and anyone who wants to follow your path and you know, experience the same experiences that you had throughout your career. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Cool, thank you so much. I enjoyed talking to Avier.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Thank you.