Lending Leaders: Voices of The Industry – Featuring Carolyn Gorman of Huntington

Hosted by Rich Swerbinsky and Heidi Belnay, Lending Leaders is a monthly conversation with some of the most prominent voices in mortgage. Today's episode features Carolyn Gorman, SVP & Mortgage Director at Huntington National Bank. 

Originally aired live on 4/23/2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Good afternoon, everyone. I am Rich Korbinski, Executive Director of the Ohio Mortgage Bankers Association, back again with our April edition of Lending Leaders Voices of the Industry, where my co-host and co-co-host this week, we'll get into that in a second, Heidi Belna and I interview a great uh leader uh from the mortgage lending community in our great state of Ohio. And uh a guest we're really, really pleased to have on this month. And uh we'll get to her in a moment. But first I want to introduce my co-host and our special third co-host this week. Of course, my co-host, the LMBA Special Engagement Director, Heidi Falcon. But Heidi, explain to us our new special co-host this week. Any words for the Ohio mortgage banker uh faithful here before we get started. Good stuff, and yeah, looking forward to having Gretchen part of the conversation today. Uh and our guest today is the Senior Vice President, Managing Director of Mortgage Lending Division at Huntington National Bank, one of uh OMBA's largest and uh most engaged members. It is Carolyn Gordon. Carolyn, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to join us this week.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Rich, thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And Heidi and Gretchen, it's great to be here with you too.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

We're excited to have you.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Love it. And uh Carolyn has spent the last 15 plus years inside Huntington Bank, uh, worked at Provident and Citizens before then, so really, really rich uh just mortgage banking background and uh now the top mortgage leadership seat at uh one of the biggest bank mortgage lenders in the country, quite frankly, and uh certainly one of the biggest in Ohio. So uh Carolyn, uh congrats on uh your journey. And uh uh again, thank you for making time for us today.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Well, thank you so much. It is just a pleasure to be here. I know you've got um a wonderful group of Ohio MBA supporters and listeners here, and it's just great to be part of the conversation with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Love it. All right, let's get into it. And uh so, Carolyn, your path in Huntington um has been really cool. I mean, you've held leadership senior roles across risk, operations, product, now the top mortgage leadership seat. You know, typically when we look at like the leaders of mortgage lenders, the size of Huntington, it's you know, people have kind of job hopped their way to that role. Uh, you've done it organically. If you could just tell us a little bit about your journey uh throughout Huntington these last 15 plus years and uh what kept you at the bank and uh you know uh through through this whole period.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Um well, thank you for that question. It has been such a fun journey to be at Huntington. You know, when you think about staying at one company versus job hopping to other companies, that's one way to think about it. But as I think about my time at Huntington, it's really been um changing with the company. I started at Huntington, it was about a$50 billion bank. And um, and now, of course, here it is, you know, approaching$300 billion and ambitious um for growth. And so the organization has changed a lot during that time, just naturally through growth. And so um the culture is the same and a lot is the same about the organization. The things I love and that keep me here are the same. But the organization itself has changed and through its growth journey evolved. So it almost feels like a series of working at different companies in its own way. Um, but you know, when I think about the start of my career at Providence, I started in a rotational management training program. Program was really popular at the time, those types of roles that allowed you to rotate through different areas of the bank, learn a lot about those things, and bring those perspectives ultimately into your role. And I almost think about my time at Huntington over 15 years as having done a create your own version of that. I really have been able to do a lot of different things, learn a lot of different perspectives, and still move upward within one place that's growing and changing. So, really, I'd say rather than staying stagnant, it's just been a growth evolution for me personally and for the company and fun to be part of the trajectory at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I love it. Yeah, your path and the bank's path through that period of time, both uh, you know, really a lot of awesome growth. You went from being the risk officer to the ops director, now running the mortgage banking division. Um, what did each of those roles leading into this one kind of do and shape your disciplines and who you are as a leader today?

SPEAKER_03 4:50

They each have had such a meaningful impact. Um, I gotta say, I didn't start with a goal of sitting in this seat. And so I was really motivated always to make an impact, solve problems, address a critical need, you know, whatever the company needed, and where I could make an impact is where I wanted to go. Um, and I didn't think at the beginning about a leadership role of really this scope or this level of visibility. But as I took on each of these different opportunities, my perspective broadened quite a lot. And I got a new lens not only on the role, but on the whole institution, how decisions are made, you know, where does friction show up for our colleagues, where for our customers? What do you do, you know, to execute well in a meaningful way? And through all those roles, I found that I'm really collaborative and I can connect people to solve problems and move obstacles out of the way. And I really started to develop this thought that leadership and what I think my role is as a leader is to create the environment where people who are really talented can do their best work and they can succeed in achieving their goals and the company's goals. And um, and all the different roles that I've had and different steps along the way have helped me understand different ways in which that environment is shaped and how I can help create it. And really, rather than being a traditional kind of linear path upwards, it gave me a lot of context, a lot of empathy, a lot of perspective that I use to be a better leader every day.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Love it. You're so right. I mean, running mortgage lending for a bank, especially one of Huntington's size, I mean, you're dealing with marketing, you're dealing with HR, you're dealing with the deposit side of the bank. It's so much different having been in those roles than somebody that maybe just runs mortgage lending for an IMB. And, you know, I think you just said it brilliantly. I mean, I think your experience and some of the different areas of the bank that that that touch different parts of the bank probably critical in in how you're able to execute in your role today. And I know Heidi and her uh uh adorable assistant there have been digging into some of the the waves that that you guys have been making in the mortgage banking uh climate here in Ohio. So I'm gonna have Heidi and Gretchen take take over from here.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

So I know that Huntington just rang the bell at NASDAQ, um, celebrating the cadence and rare text partnership. That's a big statement. Um, walk us through what Huntington is actually building in mortgage right now.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Oh, I would love to. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for using that word partnerships, describing our cadence and our veritex partnerships in that way. You would fit right in here internally because that is really how we view these and how we talk about them. And so you may have seen, you know, that we're very intentional in not just describing these as mergers or acquisitions. And um, and that's a really big part of our strategy. So what we're building truly is a partnership. And what that means is building the best of all of the companies that are that are really coming together as one. And we're very ambitious in that regard, but we really believe that when you take a look at what has made each independent group successful and what they bring to the table in merging together, and when you really partner to get the thinking, the why, you know, the purpose and the perspective of of each of the groups, that that partnership can flourish. So um with Cadence and Veritex um in particular, I would say when you look at the mortgage space and you just look at the size and scope of the mortgage space, um, Huntington itself in just 2025 Hamda data was uh the number five unit producer of first-lean mortgages in the country. And um and Cadence was the 20th. Year over year, from 24 to 25, each institution moved up in terms of the share of first-lean mortgage production. And together, um, you know, we think that the growth of each group combined together, taking the best practices from both and really bringing those together are going to continue to give us more and more momentum. And doing that by staying true to what has worked for for each company, which underneath it all have a lot of similarities. Being people first, really focusing on local markets, local, local expertise, you know, helping our customers make more informed decisions is at the base of what we're trying to build.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

I love that that you focus more on the partnership and not just thinking of acquisition or merger kind of like applies that you're like taking all the best things you do and passing them to a company that's like not doing as good as for some reason when you hear those words, but it's like understanding that you're taking the best of all of these amazing companies and putting them into practice is often. Acquiring mortgage operations through buying partnerships is a really different growth strategy than just hiring LOs or buying a company outright. So, what makes the partnership model the right one for Huntington? I think we touched on it a bit there, but right, right.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

But I think you know how to make it work and what makes it right for us is is quite a bit about culture and the way in which we work. Um so what I mean by that really is that we're a company that likes to listen, share ideas. Um we think that we may have done something well in the past, but there's always an opportunity to do it better in the future. Um the whole world is operating that way and others are thinking that way, and we want to think that way and be innovative as well. So when you really bring in a partner, um you can get more thinking at the table. And there are certainly areas, you know, most recently with Cadence, where the Cadence Mortgage Group um, you know, excels at certain things and has a lot to teach Huntington, um, and vice versa. And lucky for us, some of those things are are overlapping in different areas. And so we think that um that's very exciting. But it's all culturally that spirit of listening and partnership, it really doesn't work without that.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Okay you talked about combining the best practices, technology, and talent from these partnerships into something stronger. When you're integrating two different mortgage cultures into one, where does it most often go wrong and how do you prevent it?

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Where does it go wrong? Um well, thank you, Gretchen. That's a really thoughtful question. I appreciate um I appreciate you asking that. And it is um exactly the type of thing I think as leaders that we need to be talking about. Um, what can go wrong or where does it go wrong, and thinking ahead about addressing those things is a is a huge hallmark of a leader. So I know you're on the right path already. Um but in my experience with these partnerships, where I've seen things go wrong or where I've heard things go wrong, tends to come down to communication gaps and underestimating things that are different culturally, right? So um these gaps happen when you move too quickly. If you make assumptions about how a message is going to be received, or maybe assume something so obvious that doesn't even need to be said, and you get these moments of change and many of these small gaps and they add up really, really quickly. And so we've got to think ahead about um those kinds of challenges, really focusing on communication and culture. And we won't get all of it right at all. Um, but I think a big part of success here is being thoughtful and course correcting when things do go a little bit off course, listening to understand, you know, when things aren't going the way that you wanted, understanding why, and then adapting. And ultimately that's how two organizations can come together and be stronger than they were on their own.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Mistakes are lessons. We were just talking about that on another podcast earlier this week. So true. That's where you learn. That's where the best learning opportunities are for kids too.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

For everyone.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah. Um, so Rich, we've been hearing a lot from Ohio lenders. What are they seeing on the ground? Um, let's get Kathleen's tech perspective here.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, just you know, I do a lot of LinkedIn content about Ohio mortgage originations and trends, and Ohio's outperformed the rest of the country these last couple of years, which has been overall, you know, kind of challenging from an affordability standpoint. Ohio's held in there better, and bank lenders have held in there better in the state of Ohio than they have nationally. But uh Carolyn, interested in your perspective, uh, you know, running mortgage for one of uh Ohio's largest banks and you know, one of the, I guess, more interesting housing markets we've had in Ohio. Like, what is your like Ohio housing market, like boots on the ground perspective from your perch?

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Well, thanks for the question. And, you know, Rich, we obviously track a lot of the same things others track, and we love the data and information that you share and produce that that you just talked about. It's helpful to everyone in the industry, so we appreciate that. And um, and certainly we spend um a lot of time talking with our originators, talking with our local leaders in each of the markets. Ohio's a big state, and we find that there are pockets and patches of different experiences happening in a lot of parts of the state. But overall, Ohio is known for being a more affordable market relative to lots of other uh states in the country, as we all know. And uh despite that, affordability still comes out as to be the biggest challenge that we're hearing on the ground from really all parts of the state. Home prices rates, overall cost of living, you know, we all know the things here um that are making it tough for homebuyers, especially first-time homebuyers. I think Ohio has fared a little better than some parts of the country because of the general overall affordability. Um but here's a little bit more of what we're seeing local dynamics. Some parts of the state, um, we're feeling like the pool of buyers has shrunk, right? So those who are active and who are still shopping are shopping the lenders a lot more aggressively. So borrowers much more educated, focused on rates, costs, speed to close, asking a lot of questions of their lenders, which is great. We love to see borrowers educated and want to help them in that process. There are some areas where we think the intensity of some of the bidding wars is actually eased off a little bit, um, and others not so much. So there seems to be a mix around the state that we're watching pretty closely about whether sellers are more flexible and maybe accepting more financed offers again, even though inventory is still tight, maybe easing a little bit in some places. Um and certainly builders, um, we have some um a lot of building activity in Ohio, and we participate a lot in that builders seem to be focusing on affordability more than ever. And so a lot of builder incentives, rate buy-downs, um, types of housing that that is being built to try to meet demands at lower price points. I think it's encouraging that we're seeing more of that. And the most encouraging thing overall is that what it does feel like, and really curious about other listeners and other experiences that you see, but but what it does feel like most recently is buyers and sellers do seem to be adjusting their expectations, right? Even though rates are volatile, uh, you know, inflationary pressures are real, there's a lot of global uncertainty. It we do seem to feel a growing sense of maybe recognition that there's not a really perfect time to buy or sell, and that people should be well prepared and be pre-approved buyers, and they could still find success at the right times for them.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

And it's still cheaper and more beneficial than renting, right? You gotta live somewhere, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:58

In a lot of cases. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um this is lending leaders, voices of the industry, part of the Ohio MBA Podcast Network. I'm Rich Skorbinsky, executive director of the Ohio MBA, as always joined by my co-host, our uh membership engagement director, Heidi Belnay, and this week her adorable 11-year-old daughter, uh Gretchen. So uh and uh uh Carolyn, good segue, your last answer into my my next question for you. Huntington has long been such a just committed uh participant in affordable lending programs, if it's portfolio programs that you guys have at the bank, our OFA State Bond program, other FHAVA, USDA programs. Uh, you know, talk about what's been working, I guess, in those arenas this last year when affordability has been challenged and Huntington's broader just commitment to affordable housing programs uh during your 15 years there.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Well, thank you for this question. This topic is really front of mind for us, and um, so we appreciate it. And you know, uh the reason it's so front of mind for us, of course, is almost half our borrowers are first-time home buyers. And so we really do see firsthand working with them. This is a complex journey and there carries with a lot of anxiety. There are, very fortunately, I would say, quite a number of lending assistance programs, whether those are lending products or grant programs, assistance programs available through lots of different sources. What we see is this can be really overwhelming. It can be complex for people who don't work in the field and maybe don't specialize in this. And borrowers really value education on this. So what we're finding working is finding those assistance programs, keeping a good knowledge and a good pulse on what's available in each market, what the eligibility criteria are, who these programs may work for, comparing the available programs and matching borrowers to programs in a lot of cases. In addition to that, it's really the structure of the program. So we notice that um some of the most effective structures that are working to get first-time home buyers into affordable um situations are simple. The more simple and flexible a lending assistance program can be in its structure, the more effective that we see it. Right. So it that would be like um allowing assistant funds to be used for different purposes, right? Could be down payment or closing costs based on what is that borrower specifically needs, right? Reducing any servicing obligations that might be burdensome on the back end. When programs are designed um in a flexible way, they are making a meaningful difference. And then I would call out the thing that I think is most important is getting people into homes is really important. It's foundational. We want to do that, and we want to set them up for success so they can stay there. So that long-term education, um, for a lot of folks, HUD certified homeownership counseling, very impactful to help borrowers understand their whole financial picture and be prepared, right, for maybe potential payment shock or other things, what home ownership actually looks like. And then whole combination of education, assistance programs that are thoughtful. Um, we we're seeing those things help borrowers get into homes and then succeed to stay there.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Well said. So important, you know, in affordable first-time home buyer programs, the education attached to it in terms of just, yeah, setting up borrows for success. And Huntington has been a leader in that arena for a long time. So kudos to you uh for being part of that. And uh I'm gonna move, we're gonna move the conversation to some uh leadership and industry art questions, but I'm gonna pass the baton to uh my my lovely assistants uh for these questions. So uh high congrats and take it away.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

So I'm curious if there was a turning point um where you decided that you wanted to go into leadership. I know you said that you've been there for 15 years and had the four distinct roles, but I'm wondering like at what point you decided that it this was the direction you wanted to go if there was a point.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Um absolutely. I um this is a this is great. I didn't set out, I said this a little earlier. I didn't set out with a goal of running the mortgage operation. It really was not my plan. I wanted to contribute as much as I could everywhere I went, help people solve problems, and and just kind of growth and curiosity. And so it's a great question of when what happened, what did I know? I remember um having great mentors um point out to me that I was building a lot of transferable skills and that I had a lot of potential to do more. And maybe before I saw that myself. And uh and I in particular I always found in mentoring and career pathing conversations I would be asked, what what role are you working toward? What do you want to do? Right? And it could frustrate people that I didn't answer that question directly with a role that I had in mind that I wanted um them to help me work toward. Um but as I moved through the roles that I was in, I started to notice and there came a point where I noticed I was being consulted often for guidance. I was having input about how things should be run. And, you know, there there did come a moment as more and more of that ha was happening, I started thinking maybe I would have interest in a role like that. And what I really needed to do um as I broadened my responsibilities was grow some new and different skills with that role in mind. And so I'm naturally um a listener and I'm naturally an introvert. And so those things are good and they're valuable, but leading groups of people with with a lot bigger spans and being a more visible leader, I really needed to work on um some intentional efforts around truly being more visible, selecting some extrovert skills every now and then. Um, and not, you know, well, it's great to be a listener. Sometimes you got to be out there forward with the vision. And so, you know, really enhancing how I thought about that and and building those skills and practicing um was really critical. And so I was fortunate to have some great role models to watch, a few that I tried to emulate while I Was still staying true authentically to myself. And um and that's really been how the journey unfolded.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

That's awesome. Your turn. When you look at the pipeline of women coming up in this industry, what do you see that gives you confidence and what do you see that still still needs to change?

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Gretchen, I felt confident that you are here today with us getting an opportunity to see more into the industry and asking that question. Um, thank you for that. That is um truly really, really cool and something that I think is inspiring to everyone. Um But you know, in addition to that, what else would I say? What do I see that gives me confidence in the mortgage industry? Very anecdotally, I am encouraged by just simply the number of women I interact with on a day-to-day basis now in different roles in different parts of the business compared to, you know, almost 25 years ago when I started and at different points in time along the way. It certainly just feels like there's a change in the number of participants. And um it's not only that there are more women there, but they do appear to be more visible in roles that are influential, that are having a bigger influence. And in the past couple years, it's much rarer than it used to be for me to be, for example, the only woman in a room. Um and I credit that to a lot of different things, but I'll say in mortgage specifically, I see a lot of strong support from industry voices. The MBA is a very notable example, right? The M Power community is very well known for creating networking and advocacy forums for women. And I think that helps increase women's competence to strive for more, to think about um bigger roles and different roles for themselves. And I also think that increases the level of advocacy that we get from male allies in the industry. And we're beginning to see a lot more of that. There certainly is more work we could do to get more and more women in the industry into revenue producing roles, leading PLs, um, you know, topping the bigger producer list in some cases, although we have some amazing examples of that, you know, getting more capital markets roles. Um some areas are still a little more male dominated, but I feel encouraged and would love to just celebrate the progress that we have seen and then obviously see us keep advocating for more change.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I love that. I remember going to events, you know, 10, 12 years ago and being the only woman in the room. So even in the last 10 years, things have changed so much with all of the women's groups and just having like the support to actually go into things is so different than it was not too long ago. I think it's crazy. So Huntington is I think it's a 200, almost 300 billion banks with a massive retail footprint. How is such a large in a large institution? How do you prioritize all of the strategic objectives?

SPEAKER_03 24:46

And um well, certainly for mortgage, um the residential mortgage group represents about a third of our over overall balance sheet, consumer and business loan portfolio. And so the mortgage business itself is really central to how we're serving customers and communities. And so that helps uh make it important priority. I would say putting the customer at the center is the biggest thing that we can do. Serving the customer the best in the best way we can is the main priority. And then the mortgage business and mortgage product, it's really inherently well positioned to do that. Um it fills our purpose because home ownership is so fundamental to our customers and the cornerstone, I would say, of having healthy communities. And so, you know, making mortgage a priority just means uh championing that for our borrowers and and it's very aligned with the broader mission of the bank.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

All right, Rich, I'm gonna throw it back to you again for the technology portion.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, Carolyn, technology technology is rewriting right now the mortgage origination process, like fast enough to make our heads spin. It's kind of crazy what's going on right now between you know existing technology providers of the mortgage industry that are, you know, offering AI bolt-ons, AI specific mortgage industry products, non-mortgage industry models and uh gen AI platforms that are in advancing at incredibly rapid rates as the leader of uh you know fairly large mortgage decision. How are you making sense right now of just the emerging tech part of our business in 2026?

SPEAKER_03 26:21

There's so much to take in, isn't there? Um, we're really um we are really, I would say, again, trying to keep the borrower in mind. We're trying to stay focused and understand the whole landscape of the industry and what's available, but bring it back into what it is that we are trying to do to create a modern mortgage experience and to create a great experience for our customers. So um our current focus at Huntington is how to make um how to preserve the human connection, right? Technology and all the tools and and things that you've just mentioned and and all the things we're looking at, they're critical to how we deliver. But we are finding that our borrowers are still value the human connection. We think they still will, because this is one of the most significant transactions um in their life. And so we think they want to, you know, feel heard and connected with a person, but we need to give those people the right tools, all the people, the borrowers and the colleagues are you know, our employees who are working with them. And so digital tools, you know, to help make the process clearer, I would say, and to help um you know, verify information. Anytime we can get information somewhere else and the borrower doesn't have to provide it, and we can explain with clear transparency, you know, what's needed, how to how to connect to providing it and what it means, you know, what's going to happen next, getting things done faster, reducing friction, some of the, you know, just making sure borrowers can see their documents before they get to the closing, they get a chance to take a look at them and ask questions, some closing electronically. Um, it we're trying to evaluate any different tools and technologies that are available in terms of how does it impact that borrower's experience, and how does it experience impact the experience of the people on our team who are providing that experience for the customer.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Carolyn, your career, you've been through the 07, 08, you know, uh, the big short mortgage meltdown. You've been through multiple interest rate cycles, regulatory overhauls, a pandemic this last year and a half, geopolitical stuff has kind of made rates go a little bit up and down, you know, I guess through all of it. What are the lessons to be learned in just leading through uncertainty and you know, being a leader in an industry that there's just so much external stuff that we can't control that impacts mortgage? And uh just yeah, some words of wisdom on on what you've learned in managing through all that over the years.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

There sure is a lot of external stuff, Rich. And you know, I think what I've learned is there always will be. And as much as we try to predict it and we make a whole industry of predicting it, um, something always gonna be new and different and unexpected. So we have to prepare for that. You know, we we cannot predict, we have to control within our control. For us, what that means is always help customers make the decisions that are right for them and always think ahead and prepare for all the range of scenarios that could happen and you know how we might address the range of different things, whether they're expected or unexpected. Um, certainly having empathy and being agile are uh two things that are always needed in a changing environment like this. And I would say that, you know, experiencing a lot of challenging times and embracing all the changes that can come from that uh have been an amazing way to learn those lessons.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Love it. Well, this has been a great conversation, Carolyn. Really, really appreciate uh you making some time to come on and uh yeah, just share your insights and lessons from experience of uh your years in the industry. And uh yeah, just really appreciate your membership in LMBA and all Huntington does, and uh, for you making time to uh talk with our members a little bit today.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Well, thanks so much for having me and thanks for all the work that you and the OMBA are doing to help make tools and conversations and information available to the community. We really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Thank you so much, and uh it's very kind of you and want to also thank my awesome partner, Heidi Belnay, uh, has been such a big impact with the Ohio MBA and my co-host on these calls and and her partner in crime, Gretchen, who was incredible today. Gretchen, uh, good work and Heidi, thank you as always for everything.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

And most importantly, thank you to all of you uh for joining us. If you're listening to this on the podcast, we are doing so much cool, free, fun stuff on the Ohio MBA uh network. Go to OhioMBA.org. We're doing typically two of these types of sessions a month. If it's lending leaders or conversations with our lobbyists about what's going on down at the Statehouse or other great partners of OMBA coming on, sharing some knowledge and wisdom with the members. You can go to Ohio, we if you're listening on how we do all of these live on Zoom as well. We had almost 50 people in live today uh for this. So faces with names, all that good stuff. And you can go to OhioMBA.org to sign up for the live version of any of these as well. So, but uh thanks again to everybody, all of you and uh Carolyn, thank you so much for joining us and uh looking forward to future conversations and uh all the best to you in 2026.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Thank you, Rich. Thanks, Carol. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Thanks, everyone. Have a great rest of the day.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Bye.