The Bachelor's Degree Every Paramedic Should Demand

Advancing the paramedic profession requires a shift toward higher education. Learn why degree requirements are the key to future growth.

This discussion addresses the unique dual identity of emergency medical services providers who often feel caught between public safety and healthcare sectors. We examine the current professional landscape and the specific challenges that prevent paramedics from being fully integrated into the healthcare system. By analyzing the trajectory of nursing education standards, we explore how similar academic shifts could stabilize the field.

Ultimately, this analysis provides a roadmap for elevating the paramedic profession through credentialing parity. We break down how requiring degrees may lead to improved earning potential and greater professional recognition. Understanding these systemic changes is essential for anyone currently working in emergency medical services or planning a career in pre-hospital care.

From there, we get practical. We break down why requiring a bachelor’s degree in EMS could elevate the profession the same way degree standards helped nursing gain pay and respect. We also dig into the messy reality of licensure, National Registry reciprocity, and county-by-county hurdles that make medics re-prove themselves again and again. That patchwork doesn’t just frustrate providers, it quietly tells the public we can’t be trusted.

If you care about the EMS workforce, paramedic education, and what it will take to build a sustainable model that keeps great medics in the field, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a partner or student, and leave a review so more people find the conversation.

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0:00 EMS Identity And Professional Status
6:00 Building A Bachelor's In EMS
8:07 Expanding Careers Beyond Ambulances
15:38 Community Paramedicine And Mental Health
18:07 Training Mistakes And Hospital Stories
31:24 Teaching Assessment And Myth Busting
40:50 What Medicine Will Change Next
46:23 How To Join The Utah Tech Program
50:57 Why Students Love St George

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Are we public safety or are we healthcare? My argument is that we're both, but we don't really fit in the sandbox with either. Part of that is an identity issue. But one of the things, and I I'm a huge advocate of promoting the profession, in fact, it's a project that I've been assigned to work on right now. If we require our paramedics to get a degree, then the profession can demand more money.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Because that's what's happened with nursing.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I would love to see an advancement in EMS. And you know there's been rumors of a paramedic practitioner coming out. Because the problem I see right now is that once you're a paramedic, you're just a paramedic. When is that mid-level provider certification or licensure going to come in for us to advance our scope and our knowledge? I've met some incredibly intelligent medics where I'm like, bro, you are out of this world of team or something. Yeah, but that's where they all go. Because there's no advancement in EMS pre-hospital right now.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

They get their medic and they realize there's no other door in this room and they could enter, and so I'm gonna go back in the hallway and that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

That was actually one of the questions I wanted to address was do you want to give El the listeners an idea of why they would want to go to a university as a coming out with a degree as a paramedic versus maybe a just a technical school that you just get a certification?

SPEAKER_04 1:25

Yeah. And this is the only time I'll compare us to nurses. Um but nursing, nursing.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

There's a whole that's a whole other podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Well yeah. But um, you know, nursing really worked to elevate their profession because they weren't respected, they weren't well paid, um, and their their scope was fairly limited. But what they started requiring were degrees or their nurses to have degrees. And in fact, many places you can't get a job as a nurse unless you have a bachelor's degree within a couple of years of your hire date. Um, and some of them require even a bachelor's to be hired. But what's happened is is we've seen the nursing pay shoot up in the last 20 years because they've made that change. EMS um is has always been seen as a trade and not as a profession. And part of that is I think that we lack an identity is are we public safety or are we healthcare? And um, you know, my argument is that we're both, but we don't really fit in the sandbox with either because public safety says, Well, yeah, I bet you guys are rendering health care, you're rendering care, and nursing or or healthcare saying, Well, you guys are out there with the firefighters and the police officers. Yeah, you're not in the hospital. And so, you know, part of that is an identity issue. But one of the things, and I I'm a huge advocate of promoting the profession. In fact, it's a project that I've been assigned to work on right now, um, is if we require our paramedics to get a degree, then the profession can demand more money.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Because that's what's happened with nursing. And it also elevates our scope of practice. So if you look at Australia and most of Europe, they're a bachelor's degree.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

But they even Canada, I think, too, right?

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Yeah. Yeah. And so they have um an expanded scope of practice, and they're also highly revered and seen as as healthcare professionals. And so we really need to elevate the profession in order to be treated, you know, as experts in our field, which we are, you know, everybody at this table, we know we're experts in this field, but we don't always get treated like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

You think part of that's the certification too? Like we have our national registry, and that's fine and dandy, but every state is different and requires their own licensing. Whereas nursing, it's like you take the NCLEX and you can go anywhere and work any job and travel this, that, or the other.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

Yeah. And I most states are part of the national registry compact now, where if you're nationally registered, you can you can get reciprocity into to any state. Some like some require you take a test, some require that you go through this certification process as well, which is kind of a pain. Like in Clark County, so in the Vegas Valley, our graduates that that want to work down there, they have to take the Clark County protocol test. And you know, because Clark County is kind of a sovereign nation. And um, and in California, you have to license in every county you work in.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Each LEMSA has their own jurisdiction within the state.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Yeah, and it's it's kind of ridiculous. It's insane. And and and so that really hampers our profession because what that's telling the public is that they can't be trusted. And so that they have to prove their their worth again and again and again. And I am grateful that the that the state of Utah has moved from certification to licensure in their terminology because we aren't re-certifying every four years in the sense that we're not taking a test like we used to. Now it's every two years, but uh we just submit CME hours, which is which is commiserate with many professions. You know, whether you're an accountant or an attorney or whatever, you have to submit hours of continuing ed, right? So that's you know, it's commiserate with these other professions. And so I'm grateful to the state of Utah for doing that, but other states need to get on board. And and there are a lot that are on board with that. Um, there are states that will take, will accept national registry just straight across the board, but you know, you fill out an application and a background check and you're good to go.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Pay a fee sometimes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

But it's just it it's just been so long coming and it's so laborious. And so, you know, one thing that um would help with having a degree is saying, you know, I have a bachelor's degree. Like, and you're gonna tell me I have to take your stupid little test because like I'm a professional. Like, you know, you wouldn't ask, you know, I mean, that's it's silly. You, you know, you wouldn't ask another professional in healthcare to do that necessarily. Um, but one thing, and I'm really excited about this, is I was asked to um build a bachelor's of EMS at Utah Tech University. And so we're gonna be proposing a 90 credit bachelor's. So most bachelor's degrees are 120 credits. Um, but in the higher ed kind of industry-wide, we're seeing a lot of these 90 credit bachelors pop up. And it's not that they're watered down or that they're uh less than, if you will, but they're taking away a lot of the electives that don't apply to apply to the profession because they're they're finding all these people aren't going, they're not getting degrees. They're starting college and then they're like, screw that, like I'm not I'm not gonna get a degree. Where when you can have a hyper-focused 90 credit degree, then somebody can graduate with a bachelor's and and use that to market themselves, and they're highly trained. And so we're looking at two tracks right now. And I've been asking for input from the public. I presented this at uh Washington County EMS Council last month, but uh one of the things that we want, I want to do two tracks, and one of them is is a is a bachelor's of EMS with an emphasis in leadership, and um, which that's what my undergraduate is in, is in emergency services leadership. Um, and then the other one is is a bachelor's degree in specialty care. And I want that one to be critical care paramedic, mobile integrated health care. Um, I would love to do some type of a wilderness medicine. That's a little out of out of my scope. And so I'm uncomfortable with that. But that's when I pull in the experts because I'm not afraid to say I don't know. That's when I say, okay, Brennan, who can you hook me up with that's got, you know, experience in wilderness medicine that could be a professor for some of these courses? And then we can offer these stacked credentials so that somebody would graduate and they could do mobile integrated health care. They could test for their flight paramedic, they could do critical care paramedicine, um, all those things. And so I want to have two tracks where people have the option of um that specialty care or the leadership arm of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

I think that's one of my favorite things about the Utah Tech program specifically, is that we're working on not pigeonholing the thinking of our students into thinking, like, I need to go work for Gold Cross, which is our 911 agency here, or a fire department. Those are the only two options. Like, no, like we were just out two weeks ago and we were taking them through an introduction to rope rescue where we actually had the students. Uh, you know, we had myself and and another person there building systems, safety checks, doing all the things. But we actually took one of the instructors, put him in a skid, and then we did a a full high ankle raise, and they were seeing the big picture of like, oh man, yeah, uh as a paramedic, I can do this. This is rad. And there's so many, I'm sure we had Billy at the program for a little bit too, and he was, you know, this hazmat guy, you know, secret squirrel type of dude that was coming in and showing all these new avenues where as a paramedic, you can take this to uh you can travel with it. And I think that's a common misconception that people have about paramedics. When I was working in New York City, you know, you meet the SF guys who obviously go all over the place, but even like civilian dudes were talking about their experiences at McMurdo down in uh Antarctica, I think it is. It's not the North Pole, it's Antarctica. Yeah. And I was like, dude, what incredible experiences. He was flying on a helicopter. I've got a buddy that's gone to Haiti and worked there. He's gone to South America, he's in the Philippines doing hoist missions. You went to Fiji. Yeah, you went to Fiji, that's right. Yeah, no. Um I think that's what the problem is with a lot of pyramidics. Like, well, I'm just gonna work for an ambulance. Like, dude, get off the box. Yeah, like go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

It's a great experience there, but yeah, there's there's tons of other things you can do.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Go experience some austere medicine somewhere and get addicted because you're going to once you realize like there's out-of-the-box style thinking here of this it's fun.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

It's awesome. We've had graduates that have worked at offshore oil rigs. Uh, we've had graduates that have worked uh contract medicine for the military and have worked uh in fact, I know one one uh guy just retired probably last year. And for over 20 years, he would spend six months in the Middle East and then six months home. And and did that for you know his entire career.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

So providers going out like families that have a boat and they're gonna spend a month on the sea and they have an onboard paramedic that just goes with this family. Um EP teams.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Concierge medicine's huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

So And tell I think isn't uh telemedicine or like remote that's kind of starting to build now too, where you have yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Yeah. You know what's interesting too? One thing that we do at Utah Tech is uh so they have to our students have to write a capstone research paper, and that's pretty much across the board. Most per paramedic programs require that. But ours, the students have to write their paper on an advancement in EMS. And so it can't just be like whole blood in EMS because that's actually been around for quite a while, right? It just isn't in Utah. And so we want them to think past the local EMS agency thing. And I have them, you know, we we have the Journal of Paramedic Practice, which is out of the UK. It's a journal that we we use. We we um look at latest research and and you know, maybe it's uh, you know, like a few years ago we had somebody do on ECMO when ECMO first came out. When we um, you know, body worn cameras in EMS. Um, I mean, everything from you know, uh hormone therapy and trauma patients as uh a means of treating inflammation, you know. So they're really and some of those things end up taking off in EMS and some of them don't, but you know, point of care ultrasound is really big right now. We actually just, or I just ordered my ultrasound machine.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Do you have a butterfly? Or is it a butterfly? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

So we just ordered that and we'll be trained on doing fast exams in the field. But, you know, so those are things that we want. We want our students forward looking. Like, and I Brennan hit the nail on the head when he was talking about um, you know, we want them to think just outside of this agency and and just outside of Utah and even Clark County, where a lot of our graduates go down in the Vegas Valley. You know, we want them to think outside of that and go, okay, worldwide, what is happening in EMS? You know, they're advanced practitioners, they're doing things, and so we want them to be looking at what technology, you know, some some of it were, you know, drones in EMS and different things that we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

I was gonna say, look at new industries that are coming out and what some bigger companies are planning to do. It probably won't be in our lifetime, but here soon they're gonna be looking at ENTs and medics on the moon and Mars.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

It's gonna be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'm a lot older than you, so it definitely, definitely won't happen in my lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

But yeah, look at look at progressing industries um or new industries that are coming out. Um there's like research facilities, the the Sanford Neutrino mine that's up in in uh where we live by South Dakota or in South Dakota. Um, there's medical personnel there. And you get to be around scientists who are looking at cosmic things. Like they all need medicine, right? If there's big heavy equipment or dangerous lasers and things, you gotta have EMS around.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah. I mean, if anybody's gonna break it, I mean who's who's gonna be around to break it, right? You gotta have a medic.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yep. You have an astrophysicist talking to paramedic, and he's like, oh man, IQ levels do not match right.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

You want to see my medications?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah. I mean, that's the cool thing too, is like I would love to see an advancement in EMS. And you know, there's been rumors of a paramedic practitioner coming out because the the problem I see right now is that once you're a paramedic, you're just a paramedic. When is that mid-level provider certification or licensure going to come in for us to advance our scope and our knowledge? And you know, we can be. I mean, I've met some incredibly intelligent medics where I'm like, bro, you are out of this world. Yeah, but that's where they all go. Because there's no advancement in EMS pre-hospital right now. They all end up going to medical school or become a mid-level as a PA, or they bridge to NP or sorry, to RA. You know, we've got a two-semester bridge program at Utah Tech. How many students have we gone through had go through that? I mean, a majority of it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Yeah. I mean, it's only been in the program's only been going a few years, and we've probably put two dozen through, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

It's their medic and they realize the door, there's no other door in this room that I've just entered. So I'm gonna go back in the hallway and that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Well, and then they say that they say that, well, you know, they are advanced. They are advancing to nurse practitioner. And it's like, no, but you're still not advancing in paramedicine.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

And that's where the that's where the rub is, is that you're not advancing as a paramedic. Becoming a nurse practitioner is not advancing as a paramedic, that's advancing as a nurse. And and so we are looking at the education model for that nationwide. That's something that's that's a hot topic. It's always on the table. Um, I'll be attending Pinnacle this in July, and it's an executive-level leadership conference for EMS leaders. And these are these are people that are medical directors from, you know, anywhere from the DC area to LA to Houston, Dallas, you know, all the big Phoenix, all these big cities, these chiefs, EMS chiefs, uh, medical directors, they they get together and they talk about, you know, where's EMS headed? And uh, and it's all it's all data driven, uh, which is exciting. And and so you see that push that's happening, which, you know, like Brendan mentioned, you don't see that on that local level. You don't hear about that. But it's a, it's, it's really exciting to see, you know, where EMS is getting pushed and where it's being um, you know, the wheel is turning. It's just how quickly are we going to get there? But we do need to get to be um practitioners because the EMS model really is broken. It's not sustainable for much longer. We do a lot more public health than ever before. Uh, we're treating a lot more mental illness than ever before. Um, you know, we're in their homes. We can see, we can mitigate their emergencies. We there are there are things that we can do that um, you know, why are we taking them to the emergency department? Because that is not definitive care. Definitive care might be, you know, getting them into their pulmonologist and saying, hey, I'm gonna give them 40 LASICs and uh get them into their and some potassium and get them into their pulmonologist because they're in CHS or in in, you know, or or their heart doctor or whoever, you know, just to get to get whatever disease treated that needs to be treated. And and um so you know, that's the that's the the the problem that we're running into. And so with community or the mobile integrated health care or community paramedic as it's sometimes called, is is really kind of that step forward, but it's still kind of being hampered because there's some insecurity amongst nursing and social work about well, if we let these guys loose, then what about us? Like they need they need us. And and we do need social workers and we do need nurses. But you know, if if I have a patient that's in in crisis, you know, in a psychiatric capacity, um, you know, there's medication that I can give them. I can give them, you know, a mood stabilizer. In fact, uh there was a research out of UCLA that just came out where uh they would they would run on a behavioral patient that was in crisis and they would give them an oral medication. It was a mood stabilizer. I can't remember if it was Risperdone or one of those, but they would give them a mood stabilizer and sit with the patient for 20, 30 minutes. The patient would contract that they're not gonna, they're not suicidal, they're not gonna harm themselves. They would get them in with this, with their psychiatrist, they'd get them in with their therapist, and then they would treat them and leave them on scene. And and that's where the patients belong. They belong with their families, they belong with their friends. They don't belong in an emergency department with a sitter watching them.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

And soften strains. Right. You know, that doesn't do anything. Crowding the ER. Crowding the ER taking away.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Yeah. And so that's that's that's where our scope needs to go because we can mitigate a lot of these emergencies that are happening. And a patient in crisis isn't benefited by being in that room.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

No. No. Um do you have, if you're willing to share any funny Brennan Hill stories from his time at your program? Oh no. Yeah. You can think on the minute.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

I already know.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Do you want to tell it? Do you just want to get in front of it here?

SPEAKER_04 18:25

Well, I don't trust people that don't eat bread, but I trust someone.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

So I guess you're only gonna trust me. Neither of them.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Oh, you get neither of you eat bread. What is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Cancer and I'm doing what an excuse, Tyler and cheese.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Blame it on the cancer, right? Yeah. Everybody's got an excuse, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

I do.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

No. Um I don't I don't know if I have anything.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Well, I mean other than whatever whatever you guys were laughing about. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Are you talking about like the Heingel rescue when your crotch was in Jeremy's face?

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Oh no. There, I mean, that happened to the ones I know that we may or may not have told you. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Yeah, there's some stuff that they don't tell mom, if you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

We could always flip it, then it's a few. Yeah, Brennan.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

What haven't you told me?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

In the early years, no, this one I did tell you.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

I mean, immediately came to mind at that time I accidentally flushed a whole line of uh air into my IV. It was a full extension or a full drip set because we had had we were doing like this this uh relay race, and somebody hooked me up with a 60 drop, and we had to have that whole leader into that ID before we could finish. And so somebody hooked up, they're like, okay, take the 60 set, put on a drip or a 10 drip instead. They pulled out the 60 and then hooked up the 10cc drip onto or the 10 drop onto my catheter hub and then spiked it the back into the bag. So it never got flushed. It was it was a full 10cc of air. Six foot line got pushed through my IV. And I I kid you not, I felt like my subclaving just like. And I was like, oh no. Yeah, I told you I think that. I was like, I yeah, hey, so this just happened, and I like I off-gassed it. I was a little coffee. Yeah, I wouldn't try it with a geriatric patient. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Oh, we had to call our medical director and monitor him, and I was so not happy. And then I had to explain to my boss. I'm like, so we had a situation, and he's alive. He goes, Well, it's not your fault. And I said, I'm in charge, it's my fault. And he's like, Oh, you're right, it's your fault.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

There's other people that I blame.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

There, there's worse stories I've heard out there of like even an EMT class, they were doing letting uh uh them do EJs, like they would bring in a medic to come in and do an EJ on like an EMT student.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

So it could always be worse. So talking about the IV thing, we do want to quantify that there is safety requirements. Yeah, I need to qualify that.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Yeah, we put a pretty robust uh safety standard in after that happened. Um, and that was not just your error, that was actually a student had had acted outside of what we had asked him to do. But yeah, we we we were very safe. We we don't do anything that's that's unsafe, but yeah, that was a that was an outlier for sure. And yeah, I thought for sure I was gonna get fired, but we handled it. It all got handed. We handled it, the right things happened. Careful management. And right and our medical director wasn't too freaked out by it. He's like, you just need to monitor him for the next 45 minutes. No, so I mean when I told him what happened, there was an awkward pause. A little awkward, yeah. Not gonna lie. But yeah, we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Mistakes were made.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

That's what we like.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

I mean I bet that kid will never ever do that ever again. Ever again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Because he didn't have a license or he remembers.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Right. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

No, it's good. We yeah, we yeah, we're pretty careful.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Outside of that, there really haven't been any incidents at all.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

You know, we did have It was interesting though, we had a situation totally unforeseeable, but we had a student. Um we were practicing IVs and um the hospital had donated a bunch of old tourniquets to us. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

And she had an anaphylactic reaction because they were latex tourniquets. They didn't realize they were donating tourniquets that had latex in them.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah. Whoopsie. Well, that got a little.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Yeah, so we called an ambulance for that one. She didn't she ended up she didn't need an ambulance, but just to I mean, we gave her what well actually, because you guys came and got me, I think, after you'd given her oral benadryl and she was okay, but she was having like all the GI symptoms of uh anaphylaxis and neuropes.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Yeah, there's too many funny stories in the paramedic program. Like we go on and on on a whole podcast about stories. I mean, one about one of the students walking into the OB unit for a paramedic rotation and then being mistaken as a medical student, and he didn't tell anyone. So he's scrubbing in two. And he's just like, This is weird, scrub it up. Gets under there underneath the lights. He's wearing a full suit, so nobody can see his uniform because he's you know in surgery.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Well, that's the that's the funny thing. Because this and it's it's it's always like that guy, right? There's always like that one guy. So yeah, he goes in and they're like, Okay, do you want to go in with and for the C-section? She's like, Yeah, I'll go in. Cool. And he's like, I've never been in the OR, so he's like, I don't know. Do I wear my uniform under my scrubs or do I not? And I'm thinking, dude, be like, take them off because they're your, you know, because in in C-sections, they keep the OR warm so that the little baby doesn't freeze, right? And so he goes in there and he hadn't eaten. It was first thing in the morning. He was really nervous, and he gets in there, and he's so he's like, Yeah, and he says, like, they're cutting the lady open, and he's and the doctor's like, well, what's this layer? And he's like, I don't know. And then they cut through another layer, and she's like, she's like, What's this layer? And he's like, I don't know. And then what's this layer? And then he's like, and then they have me like holding the salad tongs. So then I'm like, holding the salad tongs. And I he's like, I hadn't eaten anything, and then they're like cutting it open and everything, and like three layers of clothing on, and he's got like all these layers of clothing on, hadn't eaten, and he's nervous holding the salad tongs, and he says, They could tell I was getting faint. And so somebody came and took the salad tongs from me, and he's like, and then I went over and I sat in the corner and they brought me some juice, and I got some juice, and they're like, and then the doctor told me, She's like, go down to the cafeteria and then we need to talk. And so she comes back. So he goes down the cafeteria, gets something to eat, takes, takes the scrubs off so that he's not sweating. Um, goes down the cafeteria, gets something to eat, comes back, and he's talking to and the doc's like, we need to talk. And he's like, Okay. She goes, What are you hoping to get out of this oriented this rotation? Like, what are your goals? Like, and she's trying to be like really diplomatic. Like, he can tell she's pissed as all get out. And she's like, What you know, what do you want to get from this? And he's like, Well, you know, like I want to learn about childbirth and like emergencies and like you know, how to handle emergencies in the field. And she's like, The field, and he's like, Yeah, you know, like on the ambulance. And she she goes, wait, and he goes, she goes, What? You're a medical student. She goes, No, or he says, I can't remember what he said anyway, but he's he's like, Well, yeah, like I'm a paramedic student. She goes, I thought you were a medical student. And she's like, Oh my gosh. He's like, I was so mad because you didn't know all the little individual layers of the of the skin as they're cutting through this abdomen. And um, and she's like, Well, if we have another c-section, you can come in. She's like, But I probably won't have you assist. Then he comes and he tells me the story, and it's kind of one of those things where I'm just like, oh my gosh. I'm like, please identify yourself as a paramedic.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

This kid was a legend in the hospital after that, though.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

Oh, you were the one that was in the C-section. Like, you did it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

I bet she's still telling that story.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

Oh, I'm sure. And I'm sure she asks every time. Like Art from it. What kind of student? Because he said medic student, and she'd heard like medical student.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

I had a great OB rotation. There's two nurses, new nursing students there too. But the nursing students were strictly observed only, and then but the medic students you could go touch, do assessments, start IVs, all that. And then uh I was just standing there, and this doctor walks in, female OB, and she's like, which one are you? The medic student. I was like, Me? She's like, Well, gown up, you need to know how to do this, right? And I was like, uh, yeah. And then I got to do the whole thing. No way. That's so I was very thankful for that. Yeah. At least, you know, that doctor recognized, like, hey, this guy's gonna be a paramedic on his own, potentially having to deliver a baby. And she let me. So I don't remember her name, but thank you.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

That was kind of a fun flex on the nursing students, too. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

Yeah. I did actually there's a little bit of a, you know, there's a little turf war between nursing and paramedics, of course. And I was in a leadership meeting yesterday, and I was talking about how we'd ordered the butterfly system. So and I'm like, so we can do um point of care ultrasound to to diagnose internal bleeding in the field. And the nursing chair was just seething because she, oh, she was boiling mad because they always want to be the most important. And it's like, well, in nursing, and I'm like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Nursing had to go to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Next podcast, Melinda comes on, we're having a whole conversation. Medics versus nurses.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

But I would have to like, you would not be able to use my real name because I would be able to just blow you out and point you. Like, do the boy the nurses one time.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

You don't understand. Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

No, I actually did have a really funny experience where I had a patient who he was probably 400 plus pounds, and we get there and he's super sick. We don't know what's wrong with him. Yeah, he's having chest pain, but he, you know, he he he looks apart. You know, he's he's white, he's he's diaphoretic, having chest pain. Um, hook him up to our hadn't done a 12 lead yet. Um, but blood pressure was zero over zero. I'm like, well, try the other arm, try a different cuff. Nothing, nothing. Like, let's do manual. Like, we can't get a blood pressure. I'm like, are you guys like, what is wrong with you guys? Like, get a flipping blood pressure on this guy. He's sick, he's circling the drain. So they're like, nothing. So then I go and I check a pulse. The guy has no carotid pulse. And he's sitting there. He has a Glasgow 15. He's talking to us. He has like no carotid pulse. I'm like, okay, well, clearly this guy has no pressure. So I gave him a liter of fluid on the way to the hospital, and we're like, haul and butt to the hospital. This guy's gonna die in front of us. I can't, I won't know when he goes pulse less because I can't even palpate a carotid pulse. And I couldn't feel ephemeral because he was so big that there wasn't really anything to fill. So we're, you know, haul and butt to the hospital, get him to the hospital. And this nurse, and he's got a man bun, and comes out to me and he's like, he's like, How much flu did you give? And I said, We ended up giving a loot a liter, and then we started another liter, but you know, we'd only give him maybe another couple hundred or whatever, just to try to at least get something on this guy. And he's like, Well, I realized that you don't know what I know.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

And Vinny Wood walks by. Oh, I love that. And he goes, Oh no, you didn't. And then he proceeds to lecture me on why you don't give cardiac patients lots of fluid. And then I just unleashed on why your patient needs to have a blood pressure. Yeah. And this was before we gave pressors in the field. It was kind of the dopamine error was fading out, and push dosepi hadn't quite phased in yet. But anyway, so I was able to educate him on why I gave him fluid.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

But hopefully, he remembers his mistake. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

On remembering mistakes. We'll have a round table with a couple of nurses, a couple of medics, and we just there's some grievances.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Like we'll get a longer table, it'll be three paramedics and three nurses, and Tyler and I will sit at the head. Moderate and moderate a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Listen, you don't understand. Sometimes it's me and my EMT partner who's driving. I'm sorry I didn't give this for you.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

Could it be like the WWF where everybody we could wear like cool outfits? It was a chair. Like throw something.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Perfectly good times. I was teaching a couple of years back and we had gotten into the weeds on something, man. Like we were talking about chipmunk faces. I don't even remember what we were teaching that day. And uh I remember Travis just like raised his hand and he's like, Brennan, where are we? I'm like, I don't know, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Like Brennan will get off, like he'll be teaching, you know, like obstetric trauma or something. And then the next thing you know, we're talking about, you know, yeah, like squirrels in Africa or something. And it's like, I'll walk in the room. I'll walk in the room and I'll be like, hmm. And then I'll just go and sit down and see if he can like reel it back in. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I mean, that's the most fun about the paramedic program is like you can really like get so far down into the weeds about certain disease processes or anything else that you want because that's it's an education environment, you know. It's just it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

I was gonna ask, and it's for both of you because since you both do instructing, it do you have like a favorite uh section of the paramedic course that you guys like teaching? Pharmacology, cardiology? What is it? And what about you, Melinda? I'll let you answer that first.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

Oh, I love teaching patient assessment.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Because, and it sounds so basic, but to me, it's like being a detective. And I go into that again with that curiosity of I'm gonna overturn every stone until I know what's wrong with you because I'm gonna I want to give the doctor a diagnosis. Like I'm gonna, and you're only as good as your patient assessment. I mean, you could you could be a rock star with cardiology, you could be a rock star with pharmacology, you could be a rock star with trauma, but if you can't find it, you can't treat it. And so I really like to hammer down with these students uh as far as, you know, I want you to go in and find everything that's wrong with that patient and and to be systematic about it. Um, I did teach um a lot of peds, and I really actually really enjoy teaching peds as well. Um, when I earlier in my career, they used to call me the Queen of Peds because I'd had so many pediatric deaths, which isn't anything to brag about, but I it really kind of honed into, I was able to like hone in and be like, yeah, I I gotta know my stuff because it's gonna happen. Like I will run that call. Um so I do enjoy teaching peds and like lifespan interaction because like I'll have a mix, I'll I'll I'll do like a compare and contrast and I'll have uh a list of traits up on the board and I'll say, okay, name that age group, and I'll be like toddler or teenager. And they have to guess because there's so much overlap between a toddler and a teenager because it's no and mine, and I can do it myself. And so it's just kind of, you know, I have fun teaching peds, but um I really I really like patient assessment because um I don't I don't think we do a good enough job teaching it.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

I don't have any gold nuggets or things that you throw out for people in their patient assessments if you were a medic.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Yeah, the body is a cheat sheet. Like you literally have the cheat sheet in front of you. Like if if I'm at, you know, I mean, trauma's easy, right? We all know assessing trauma is easy because it, you know, you literally can go down the body. But if you're you're I'm looking at body systems and I go, okay, you know, you know, if I have a brain fart and I'm like, oh my gosh, where was I in this assessment? This patient's super, super sick. I can go through systems and analyze and and collect data and collect information. I can ask clarifying questions. I can ask, you know, um, that's kind of my big thing with with our students, especially right now, where they're entering their capstone, is you got to ask this clarifying questions, you know. And it's like, you know, describe your symptoms. Tell me, oh, you said that, you know, you have this kind of cough. Well, have you had that cough before? What color is your sputum? Is it, you know, are you is it radiating anywhere? Tell me about your bowel habits. Tell me about this. What color's your urine? What does it smell like? Is it, you know, and it's just really kind of overturning every stone so that when they get to the hospital, you know, the doc will come in and you give them report and they're like, all right, I guess let's order some labs. You know, there really isn't a lot for them to suss and figure out. But really, uh, my golden nugget would be is the body is the cheat sheet. So if you get lost and confused, just look at the system and understand the system. But again, that goes back to anatomy and physiology. You have to have that foundation or you're just not gonna know.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Yeah. What about you for instructing?

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Yeah, I one of my favorite things about instructing is being able to uh be the myth buster, right? Like those common EMS myths that everybody abides by, and they're like, well, why is it like that? Like my favorite one is like backboards and C callers. Yeah, C callers, talk about some hot topics, right? Backboards for sure. Yeah, it's fun because we have multiple minds and I get to impose my bias on a captive audience. Yeah. I'm just like, why are C callers still a thing? And you know, that's I start just going off in class, looking at new data, presenting new studies, new findings, the like let's dig into the literature. Like I love that. And I think the other thing I really enjoy like passing on and mentoring, like my favorite part about teaching is like the the tips and tricks, right? Like, hey, if you have a really sick patient, like somebody when we were working on the ICU, like the one things I learned was like, okay, if I've got a patient that is so adeed in its I can't find anything, there's probably gonna be an ultrasound IV. I'm like, let me try that little thumb vein first, right? Like teaching these guys like, hey, look here, do this, like get into it this way. Or hey, you need to get an IV, but you're at the the head and you can't move around the ambulance because you might have family members or something else. Like pull their arm up and get it from up top cephalic. And they're just like, oh, and then practice that too. Like practice. You know, just stuff like that that you pick up from other people that you've worked with, because again, I I'm dumb. I don't know everything, but there are things I've picked up from other medics who are a lot smarter than me. I'm like, dude, that is awesome. So being able to get that and then take it back and pass it on to students, like I love it.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

So they get it at level one, they don't have to wait five years. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Or and they don't, you know, they if they have that in their toolbox going into the field as a new medic. I'm like, dude, more power to you, man. Like, hopefully that can help you some way down the road. What a cool thing. So, I mean, teaching is and education is is really, really fun. I wish more people did it.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Yeah, and it's even just good for learning. Like you talked about earlier, um, you know, power powerpoints is like 20% book work, and then hands-on, you're you're increasing that percentage. But teaching it, if you can teach something, that's really gonna solidify it for most people. I get it's not everyone's got different learning styles, but teaching's big.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

Yeah. Or even like sometimes, like even when I wasn't teaching as much and I was in the field, I would, I would look at situations and be like, how would I teach that? Or how would I? So even if you're not into education, it's still kind of having that mindset of how would I pass this information on to somebody else? Because you're always learning and you're always teaching. But you know, I think kind of to what Brendan was saying, like the MacGyver medicine, I I that might be my favorite thing to teach, is or one of my favorites is like, how are you gonna figure out how to make this happen? Because your patient's in this situation, they're they're entrapped or intubate from the backseat. Right. Yeah. And and you know, one thing that that we talk about in education is principle over practice. And, you know, the principle is is that I'm gonna I'm gonna immobilize that femur, or the principle is is I'm gonna manage that airway. How I do that can be totally up to me within parameters, right? Um, but it might be that I I can't get a hair traction on that patient. So I've got to figure out what do I have around me? What materials can I can I access? Who can I get to help me? And how am I gonna do that? You know, and and uh, you know, we had a uh one of my coworkers went on a call where there was a PTO within an industrial um accident. There was a PTO that ran like vertical and it was spinning, and they he was working on it with a wrench and the wrench got stuck and the PTO spun and then the wrench flew off and it lacerated his trachea. And he said, um, he said he got there and you know the guy's like tripoding, he's just trying to like breathe and panicked, obviously not saturating very well because he's getting very little air in. And he said, I just looked for the bubbles, and he said, when the bubbles came out out of his throat, that's where I put the tube. And I said, I put it in and then I inflated the cuff, and then I gave him a couple breaths and he mouthed the words thank you. Wow, that's so cool, you know, and and it's like you know, we teach circle surgical cracothyrotomy, right? But we don't and we teach facial trauma and neck trauma, but to actually take that principle into practice and go, okay, that that isn't in my textbook because this guy's neck was complete hamburger, you know, and it's like how nothing the structures weren't identifiable, you know, and it's like so it's really the principle over practice, and so I don't care like with assessment, I don't care with with treatment. I mean, with ACLS, of course, you have to follow the protocols in order, but for the most part, it's the principle. Why are we doing it? And that's that's probably actually one of the things that there's you keep asking like all these ideas, but is the why? Well, why are we doing it? Why do we care? And they say, Well, you know, I'm gonna do it because I can. And I'm like, well, I can light myself on fire, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, so you got to give me a better answer. Yeah, you know, and so it's just that that curiousness and that that investigating. But it's funny that you were talking about backboards because I am an old dog and new tricks are hard. They are hard, and so it's really good to be teaching because it kind of beats the old tricks out of me. Like it really, like I have to let a bias let a lot of biases go. And but I also feel like I appreciate how difficult it is for seasoned providers to let the old ways go. Because when you've been backboarding people for 30 years and then all of a sudden we're not, it's like and then when TV, you know, then you have to overcome like the biases on on television.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Dang. Uh on backboards. So this might be a tricky question to answer, but you started 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

35.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Sorry, 35. 35. Yeah, it's brain cancer. Sorry to discredit you uh on 10 years there. But uh when we look back 35 years ago, we're obviously like, what were we doing? Why, why did we do that? Uh, is there anything you think we're doing today that we're gonna look back on that we're like, wow, it's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

Oh gosh. Yeah, you can take a look at the ball. Well, I'll tell you something that we did 35 years ago that would be considered murder now.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Is um on our trauma patients, we would give four to six liters of fluid.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Oh yeah. Because because you don't need your pH to be within it.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

Yeah, I mean, you know, and and this was before we even had like whole blood protocols in the hospitals. But yeah, our goal was to maintain normal tension. And so we would we would do everything we could to maintain a normal blood pressure. And so, like you were like a rock star, like you were getting high fives in the crew in the station afterward if you gave somebody six liters of fluid on a trauma patient. And we had some long transports, but we've learned through science that permissive hypotension is the way to go. And even since then, we've learned that even with head trauma, a dias or a systolic of less than 110 has poor outcomes. So we know, like we went all the way to permissive hypotension, and then we went, well, let's pull back a little bit and look at the map, look at head trauma a little bit and yeah, and look at the map, which was never even a consideration before. So um I think that something that will probably go out of phase is I think the anti-dysrhythmics will get better. I think that this whole lidocaine amyoderon crap crap that's been going around forever.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

I'm that's that's if I had a crystal ball, I would say that they're gonna, that's probably gonna go away. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Our version of the four liters of fluid is we were in New York City in the ICU during peak COVID, and we were there during the before they knew, you know, putting someone on a bedlinator is kind of a death sentence. So we got to see some people receive their death sentences. Unfortunately, yeah. Yeah. They were starting to know. They're like, we want to do everything we can to keep this lady off, because if she goes on, she's probably gonna die there. Um they were doing like the heparin trials. Remember, this one gentleman was pretty young, he was not in good shape, but they were trying heparin at the time during COVID for something. I don't recall what, but he ended up having a stroke and passing away. So unfortunately, that happens in medicine. We learn some hard lessons, but well, I think that's why it's called a practice of medicine.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Is because we're still learning and we still we still don't know. I think I think you'll see pre hospital, you'll see more interventions. But then, you know, I mean, even like with intubations, like we don't intubate. I mean, I I intubated babies, but we don't intubate babies. Babies in the field anymore because we know that we can manage their airway just as well, typically speaking, knock on situation depending, yeah. Yeah, with the BBN and an oral airway. So, you know, we know that we're also not doing oral tracheal innovation. Um, and then RSI, I mean, we've you know, the the pendulum keeps swinging with RSI, but we also know that um that RSI can have poorer outcomes as well. And so maybe we need to not be taking taking the airway completely away. Um and I think I think as as medicine gets smarter and as as as we advance a profession, I think it just goes kind of back to that is that we really need to push that profession, advance the profession with requiring bachelor's degrees or higher, requiring um more training, requiring more out of our people, that that's when our profession's gonna elevate. That's when we're gonna see those advancements in medicine. I mean, we know with trauma management, you know, the advancements came from the military. They didn't they didn't come from from civilian medicine. They came from from from battle, right? And so as we continue to learn and as we continue to gather data and gather information, those advancements will happen. And and I think the more we can advance paramedicine, the more data we can gather on the civilian end of things with medical care and and realize, you know, what we can do to intervene in medicine um on the ground on scene. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

So I love the bachelor's idea because it makes us better, but it sets people up for their future because we do want to retain those good providers, those bachelor qualified people, but we also need to send some on to be ER docs. So we have people who are former paramedics as doctors, like one of our medical directors, Sarah Francis. Uh it's awesome because she was a paramedic for a long time. And so you can talk to her about anything because she was there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

We have a couple of graduates that have gone on to medical school. One of them, I don't know where he practices, but um Julie Whittison, she's an ER physician up at University of Utah, which is a level one trauma center. Nice. And she's a graduate of our program. So awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Uh would you like to plug the program? Like, is your program do you get people if someone listening loves your teaching style and wanted to come? Is do people come here for the program or is it mostly locals or yeah, we have people from all over the country that come to our program.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

Uh, we love having the diversity. I love having different schools of thought. I love having people that have come from different agencies too, especially, you know. Um, like was Melissa in your class? She was from what?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Virginia.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Virginia. Yeah, that was great. Just having somebody come from a completely different system. So yeah, we welcome anybody. We teach to the national curriculum, to the national standards. So um, it's not according to the gospel according to Melinda, it's um not the gospel according to Brennan, although he is kind of like an evangelist.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Nobody pays me money though. I'm trying to figure this out.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

Yeah. Amen, brother. Um but we yeah, we love, we'll take students from everywhere from all walks of life, all backgrounds. Um, it's funny because as we go around and do marketing, you know, people will say, Well, I want to be in this profession or I want to be in that profession. And and then they they they learn a little bit about EMS and they're hooked.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

So um how many students have you had living in vans on the Arizona Strip while they're going through the Utah Tech Paramedic program? I can think of two off the top of the phone.

SPEAKER_04 47:43

I can just well, two that I know of. Yeah. Well, yeah. We had a couch surfer.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

Yeah. That yeah. So we have like couch surfers. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I mean, we've had you know, JJ was from Alaska. We've had guys from all over. Uh it's a Josh lived in his car.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

I tried to get him into an apartment and he's like, no, my parents offered, but he's like, I like living in my car. So he just lived in his car for a year.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

It's a very common model. Is there dorms and stuff if people wanted?

SPEAKER_04 48:12

Yeah. So there's there's housing on campus and off campus that that are close by. Um, there are also um scholarships. We're the lowest uh tuition in the at the university. I'm laughing because you just took your pen apart.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

I'm a fidgeter.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Totally okay. Um but um so we do have financial, so we are the most affordable university uh in in the state. Um, we do have financial aid, we have scholarships that are available. Um depending on where you work, and and this may qualify, I I would hate to speak to every state and every area, but there are scholarships available for for students who are going to be working in rural or underserved areas. And so, um, and that's something that we've been researching more, but there is a potential to have um scholarships if you are going to be serving in an underserved area. It just depends on whether or not you qualify for that. Um, but fortunately or unfortunately, EMS pays so low that most of our students qualify for financial aid. And so school's either free or really cheap. So we don't have a lot of full tuition payers. In fact, I think at the university, like 85% have some form of financial aid.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

And then if they're interested, where do they go? Website, call you. Yeah, call Brennan.

SPEAKER_04 49:33

So they can go to the Utah Tech website and just search emergency medical services, and that'll get all that information, all that information there. Um, and then people can or feel free to email me or call me. I love when students come by and want to tour. They're like, hey, I just want to see what you have. Um, and I've I've even offered, like, hey, come be a patient. And then you can have like the students practice on you and you can see like firsthand what it's like to be a student. But we've had students come and just, or potential students come and just want to sit in class. Um, I've met with potential students over Zoom uh just because they want to like have a little bit more face-to-face interaction and just say like and ask questions. Um, or students that we just meet over the phone um or via email. I'm happy to do whatever. I'm I typically don't give out my personal cell phone. So if you want to text, you're out of love. But I know, right? Really like really good. Yeah, go ahead. Um but yeah, we just we we love, I I love um the more diverse our background of our students are, the more uh fun it is. I think I love all those different perspectives, all those different viewpoints. And um, you know, we work really, really hard, but we play hard too. And and that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

This is a good place to be too.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Well, I was gonna say you get to live in St. George. Um, yeah, don't get me wrong, paramedic school is a grind. You've got ride-alongs, you've got clinical hours, you've got tests, but on your free time, I mean, I was out at Zion National Park the other week and I saw Brigham coming down the West Rim Trail. I was like, what are you doing here? We just hung out. I mean, there's so much to do out here. I literally on what's today? Today is uh Saturday. On Wednesday, I went and bombed Telephone Canyon with Morgan Pratt, Travis Whiting, Jake Bennett, Steve Broadbent. All these are students from the program. You know, everybody's in canyoneering. If you come down here, you're gonna find like-minded people. If you're outdoorsy a hundred percent is the place to be you can mountain bike, you can go up to uh Bryce, you can go uh snowboarding, you can go in the winter, like everything's here.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

Yeah, we've had some that are like one year we had a uh kind of a group of students that were really into paddleboarding and and kayaking. And so they just go out on the lake and they'll go out and go cliff diving. Our medical director is a riot. You want to talk about a guy that can't pay attention.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Dr. Holman.

SPEAKER_04 52:01

I always joke that he loves his boat more than his wife, but he it's not true. His wife's amazing, but um, and she actually came and taught us yoga. She did a trauma-informed yoga class, which is really cool with our students, yeah, to kind of talk about like the mind-body thing, because we're really into doing a lot of that. But um, yeah, he'll take he takes the class out on his boat or to his house to go swimming. And yeah, so we just have, I don't know, we just I feel like we are just such a cohesive group. And that sounds so such a cliche, but I feel like we're all like like if we didn't work together, we would hang out together. Like I feel like like we just have a deep, deep respect for each other. You know, we have different viewpoints, different likes and dislikes, but uh, you know, like we just have that deep respect for each other and um and love to laugh, love to have fun. But boy, when it comes time to work, we're gonna work you hard. But there is a satisfaction that comes from knowing that you worked your butt off that you can't get any other way. So, and then I love it when a student comes to me and they're like, Oh my gosh, the national registry test was so easy. You know, you make class, you know, like it was so easy. I'm like, yes. Then I know then I know we're delivering a quality product.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Hell yeah. Well, cool. Thank you. This was a really, really good and interesting informed uh podcast.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

I want I'm gonna refer people to the program. Do you have a referral program?

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Yeah, uh a referral like a like he gets rewards for bringing people. Yeah, so you gotta remember that we're the lowest tuition in the university, which means our faculty are not the highest paid faculty. I I'll I'll I'll uh grill you a steak.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Deal.

unknown 53:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

All right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate it. This was fun. Yeah, thanks for coming on.