S1E19: Steven, From Legalistic Christian to Kinky Bisexual Trans-Man

Today we're talking to our friend Steve(he/him)!  He's ready to share his journey to our community. He brings the wisdom and resources he's picked up along the way. 

Several of the Resources Steve mentioned can be found here: https://www.craftycoyotes.org/partner-organizations

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Ahoy, gems and jewels. And non-binary ghouls. I'm Tallow. I'm Nix. And you're listening to The Treasures of Queer Sound. Where two of your favorite troublemaking pirates discover the riches of the queer sea. Well aboard the Salamander. Today we're talking to Steven.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

He him, who is a bisexual transgender man, and who serves as a moderator on the Mid Willamette Queer Collective Discord. He is also a member of Crafty Coyotes, where he has led and contributed to several projects and events. He is also a member of the Kink community here in San Francisco.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Well, hey there, Steven. We have to ask you the question. What are you in here for?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I put some fish carcasses in the captain's mattress. What? Why? He gave me too many night shifts, and I was pretty tired.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Okay, well, I mean, we want to start off with the first question. It's nice to know what you did, but I want to know a little bit more about your identity and how do you got to the identity that you currently have today?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I'm a bisexual transgender man. Um I'm kinky, demi-romantic, and ambi amorous, which is uh a lot of identities. Um I uh realized that I was bisexual first. Um looking back, uh I definitely um as a little kid wanted to um hold hands with the guys and the girls, and I was sad that no little girls wanted to hold my hand. Um uh but I really knew when I was 14 and working in the Chick-fil-A and a girls' volleyball team walked in, and I was like, oh no, my life has become so much more complicated. I did not ask for this.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Um just the irony of like getting the crush in Chick-fil-A. Oh yeah, volleyball girls.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I met I met my first uh my first uh like out gay person as a Chick-fil-A. I was 16 and he had started working there, he was 14. So um, you know, a lot of queer shit happened at the um at the Lubbock, Texas Chick-fil-A. Shout out to you, Lubbock Texas Chick-fil-A. 69th slide. Know who you are. Um but yeah, um, so I was like, okay, well, um I've I've obviously um I've gotta like hate myself for this, right? It's like it's fine as long as I don't like practice it, you know? Um so uh I just don't sin. Just don't sin, right? Yeah, and I was like that about everything, and I was a little a little rule follower, and it was uh it was a lot to be around. Um but uh I so I really tried. Um I was very uh I I was neurodivergent, very into like uh the media I had access to, which was Christian radio. So I was very into the Christian radio in addition to Veggie Tales, Adventures, and Odyssey. Um and uh what I learned from Christian radio, um i especially focus on the family, is uh conversion therapy is a thing. And so I kept that shit locked down. And most of mo I was like very open about myself, but I kept that shit locked down until I was out of the house and in college. And then I I presented it as like uh I'm attracted to girls and guys, but I'm not doing anything about it. Uh to my the I I can just be attracted to I'm attracted both.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

I'll just pretend I only like guys, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah, and so like it like, you know, and it like came out in other ways. Like if I liked a guy, I would be like, oh, I really like this guy to like compensate for the fact that there was like also like some people who weren't guys that I was also crushing on. I was like, oh, this is the best man ever.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

It has to your brain is like it has to be a one-on-one. If I get it, if I like a girl, I need to find another guy that it likes.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah, oh, oh yeah, that is exactly, exactly how it was. I was like, I I would feel too guilty for liking a girl. Um, and uh, but I would also feel guilty for having any kind of like sexual feelings towards a guy. Um, because uh sexual feelings meant that you were sinning, right? And so puberty was hard.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

You mentioned uh Texas. I don't think we've had anybody here from Texas. How does just context, how does it feel like or what was that?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Well, I feel like it, you know, Texas is pretty big. I think it matters where you're raised, um, and what community inside that that you were raised.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

So is this a big town, a small town?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um Lubbock is about the same size, maybe slightly bigger than Salem. Okay, it's not uh it has a college, but it's bigger than a college town. Um and uh but it is in West Texas, um Northwest Texas kind of dustbowl territory. And um so uh the cultural enclave that I was raised within, um basically uh I had my um uh my uh Presbyterian church that I would go to. I had my um tiny um reformed religious school that I went to, and I worked at the Chick-fil-A. So I had a very limited experience of what Lubbock is, and it was very much um a religious bubble that I was in within Lubbock.

unknown 6:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So you mentioned focus on the family, which I am familiar with. But I'm curious what was your flavor of former Christian?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Um, uh well, I was definitely like I was legalistic, but I felt like really guilty about being legalistic.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

So um I um I'm I'm I'm lost, so we have a non- We have a non-believer former former heathen. I mean, I'm still a heathen. Okay. Right. You never moved, we did.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

I didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Well, uh, so illegalism is basically um people who are too obsessed over the rules, um, which is considered a bad thing in the Christian faith. But also if you're not following the rules, it's a bad thing. So you're kind of stuck, you're fucked no matter what type of question you want.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

I I understand that. It's just the um you mentioned family something.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Oh, focus on the family. Oh okay. So focus on the family is a Christian ministry um that was originally, I believe, founded by Dr. James Thompson. And um who who wrote up uh one of my parenting books called uh Raising a Strong Willed Child. Um uh that was that my parents got specifically for me. Um uh basically uh they had a fun podcast called Adventures in Odyssey that was mostly great and imaginative and then always had a Christian message at the end, but also described DD as a demon worship. I'd listen to that episode, so you know. Uh, but uh they also um had like podcasts for like parents to listen to for like advice, um, and they um recommended conversion therapy. Um and uh they also were part of actually uh one of the organizations that Chick-fil-A sponsored that started uh the uh uh gay protests at Chick-fil-A.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Okay. So when you're talking uh legalistic, that's a classification they gave to certain children?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Um no. So uh legalistic, uh and when I say I was legalistic, I'm saying that I was very by the book.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Okay, that's that's your autistic type, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yes. Uh I it uh it took me a long time to move past uh these are the rules, here's what they are, and here's what I have to do to like being more flexible as a person. But sometimes I still make weird rules for myself that I follow, and I'm like, why? This is unnecessary.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Uh I didn't mean I didn't want to uh derail us.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

It wasn't. I'm sure that a lot of people are listening to this and they're just like, what is focus on the family? Dangerous, that's what don't focus on it. It's bad for your family, unfocused.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

And D is great. Um but yeah, um, so uh uh at the time, like they were talking about gay shit, but they weren't really talking about trans shit. Trans gym wasn't a part of the narrative very much. Um I also met my first uh trans person in Lubbock. I met a trans man um and uh years later messaged him and was like, hey, so you're the first trans trans guy I ever met. And now I'm a trans guy, so um, thank you. Uh uh, and so that was cool.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

Um like met him or saw him?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Oh, um, in the grocery store, he introduced me and said, You might have known me as this name before. Uh huh. Uh he was working in the grocery store. So yeah. Um, I won't go into his story because it's his to tell.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Uh but um That's your first contact. Yeah, I really appreciate it. And um, you know, I told my parents about it. But like, as like, oh, this is a bad thing that happened. But I didn't feel like it was a bad thing. I just know that's what I should do.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

That's why sudden interest.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yes. So again, someone younger than me. So um thanks to the young people for uh being braver than I was. Um yeah, uh so anyway, I um eventually I I um I uh I I moved out to Salem when I met my uh ex-husband, Christian Mingle, and uh moved out here to be a traditional wife, pretty much. Uh that also had a job sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Uh was there a reason why you came to Oregon specifically?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Um, well, I had a wide net that kept expanding my geographical search area. Um and uh I was uh uh he was somebody that like I hit it off with um and that we kept hitting it off. So um yeah, I uh I was down to move. I believed that like my purpose was to be a wife and a mother, and that that would give my life meaning and fulfillment. And so I was very, very desperate to find a uh husband, which uh was off-putting to many people, which is reasonable. Um and uh, you know, um I have compassion for we know you don't do things by hats. Oh yeah, and then you know, I was like, well, if this is like who I need to be to have like a meaningful life, then I I should get out there and find this guy, right? Uh uh so I have kind of compassion for myself now because it's like in that situation, that's the logical thing to do. Um, but uh, you know, it was very kind of femme cell-coded stuff, and uh he had some incel coded stuff, and so we were like the right kind of uh needy for each other at the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

I hate using this word, but it's just the right, you know, the right t touch of toxic, you know, just a little it was it was a little bit a little bit of salt on that.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah I'm so sorry. Yeah. Uh so um I I uh I will say that um the submissive part of uh being a uh uh of uh of being uh a a woman in Christianity, um, the type of Christianity I learned about did always appeal to me. And it made it a little bit harder to figure out what was going on with me. And uh it turns out that uh you know, liking submission does not have to be tied to gender. Um uh but yeah, um I uh I was married. Um a couple years into my marriage, I had um a uh friend from my home church who uh passed away um due to some really messed up circumstances, and basically um uh uh the church took an authoritative role. And I felt that um if the church um had been more responsible um in their authoritative role, then she would not have died. And so I thought, oh, I am a wife in this uh then in this um belief system. And I kind of feel like if God designed this as the perfect system, then he would uh, you know, make sure it works uh and um like not allow the church to fail in this way. It's very irresponsible to claim that you can carry a level of responsibility and do and then fall through. Because then people let their guard down and trust that institution to carry that responsibility um when um that is something that maybe should belong to them to look after themselves in that way. So it could put r people in a really dangerous um position. Um uh so uh the uh you know the rate of um abuse in these types of Christian environments is high because people are um not only do uh does the church appeal to predatory men because they uh know that they have women who are trained to obey them. Um but it is also really um devastating for um men and women who aren't predatory don't fall into these roles um because they're unhappy. Um and uh so there's like, you know, um not only are there abusive relationships, but there are toxic relationships that are like held together through this um united admission glue when really are they happy and fulfilled in like the uh the roles they're expressing? Probably not. Some of them are like some people are gonna fit in the box, but the box is really small. So a lot of people don't and are unhappy and like trying to come to terms with their unhappiness. And feeling like that's something God requires of them.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah. So is that is that the reason why you kind of started strain away?

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, because like I was like, well, then there's no one to protect me. And there was some, you know, stuff about my marriage that I was like, ooh. So um did you have a uh church up here? Um we tried a few churches, uh, but it was, I think, looking that kind of a blessing that uh he struggled to go to church. And so I when I would go to church uh then he would be like sad that he didn't go and like feel really guilty. Um and so eventually it was hard for me to make social connection through the church because um then I was coming home to someone who was always like upset. Um so it did cut me off from social connection, but it also disconnected me from the church. So um and gave me a lot of time by myself to figure out who I was, which I really needed. Um so uh yeah, I tried uh several churches in Salem, all of them uh varying degrees of uh uh conservative churches. Um and uh uh some of whom were um really welcoming, all of whom kind of made me feel lesser than that uh I couldn't get my husband to go to church. Um So yeah. Um so I uh started uh questioning my faith and deconstructing my faith. Um I started uh watching a YouTube channel called Goddess Grey. Don't really watch her anymore. Um she kinda I'm uh I'm not sure I agree with the current direction of the channel. But at the time, really helpful started getting me to ask some questions, break down some black and white thinking. Um, and um eventually I was like, oh, um, I think that being gay is okay. So then I was like, alright, I'm gonna be out as bisexual, and it's gonna be awesome. And so then I started accepting myself for being bisexual and started bumping up against some cultural stuff I didn't really understand, like uh somebody using polyamory as a guise to hit on me while I was still married. Um, or uh, you know, like like uh uh you know look for a third, like people really uh uh going from a very rigid structure to something that is more of like um your own choice to how you approach it is very culture shocking. And I found that with like each of my identities. Um so uh I came to term with being bisexual and then immediately afterwards I was like, okay, so the gender question that I have never allowed myself to ask because it wasn't gonna matter because I wasn't gonna do it. So uh but now I don't think it's wrong. So maybe let's ask the question. I started to look at being non-binary, and then I was dealing with some um abusive behavior from my ex-husband around me being out as bisexual, and I was like, oof. Okay, well maybe let me look at seeing if I'm just having a really narrow definition of what a woman is, and like if maybe I could be happy as a woman who likes more manly things. And a year later I started asking the question again, so the answer was no. Um and so I started exploring the non-binary space. Um, I met uh I started trying to make friends because I needed friends. Um and eventually I met uh Tallow's partner um at uh uh um an event that I went to and they uh connected me with the mid-Millamic Queer Collective Discord. And I had never used Discord, but I was on it.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

It was all downhill from there.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

In the slippery rainbow slide. I uh I met my found family gradually through the Discord, and um both of y'all are in my found family. Um and uh it was um it was wonderful um to meet people who were um really just kind and loving and compassionate and um like wanted to see me succeed and grow. Um and uh eventually when I uh separated and got a divorce were very uh supportive of me being able to have a place to go um while I was getting back on my feet, which I am super grateful for. Um and uh pretty soon after I separated, then I uh was like, what if I tried a packer? I learned what a packer was, and I was like, okay, let's try it. And I put a sock down there and I was like, holy shit. Oh no. Oh no. And so uh then uh um I uh uh you know, so I I tried like I was on the Discord for a while um before my divorce too. I would just kept changing my pronouns um, you know, on the on the profile page. The profile of the day. Yes. And so I would like always have uh I would always have uh he him in there. Sometimes she her would be one of the pronouns. Uh they them was up there. Um but then eventually like I uh was getting dressed up for Pride, um, and I got the wrong weekend. And I was wearing this uh like green tank top and this flowy scarf, and I had my mascara mustache on and I was like driving around and I was like, oh shit, pride is another weekend. Um and I just really felt like myself in this outfit that was very clearly vam flamboyantly queer, but also like a a man. And I was like, oh. And so then I just tried that. And then I was like, oh, I think uh no matter what I'm like doing, um, or like how I'm expressing myself, even if it's in a more like masculine or more feminine way, I feel like happier being a man. So I'm pretty sure I'm just a man. And then I had to like come out to come out to my found family and be like, oh, um I'm actually on the binary. Uh at the time the the Discord group was they them, third uh was they them and uh I was very nervous. And uh it turns out, you know, like people like me and like uh supportive partners of people on the Discord really uh led to the Discord name being changed to Mid Willamette Queer Collective, like it is today. Um so uh yeah, and uh since then I've just felt really confident that that's where I'm at, um, which has felt really good for me. Um I also um uh explored kink pretty soon after um uh my divorce. Uh I I think I knew from an early age that I was kinky. Like you see like the like the villain capture like someone and have them like tied up, and I was like, yeah. And it would like make me feel a certain way, and I didn't know why. Yeah. Um and um something about that is working for me. Yeah, I was like, hmm, I can do both of those things and feel pretty happy. Um and uh it took me a while to figure out what that was. Um and uh I started to explore it right away. Um and uh I uh it went wrong right away. Um and uh I I didn't have a good sex education. Um I didn't know really what I didn't know um or um what uh safeguards or precautions are like good to take or what like red flags are and I had like uh you know really learned not to listen to my body and uh also to really tolerate bad behavior from um older people and men especially and um those were uh things I really had to come um face to face with. In addition to feeling like a lot of shame still around uh uh sexual stuff like uh, you know, like purity culture doesn't just leave you when you leave the church. You have to really work at it. It took me a all a long time to be able to um just say like basic sexual words in public.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Um research going on now that uh, you know, you have in terms of religion the nuns, but they're starting to break it down from the the nuns and the duns. You know. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, uh I would say like there were a lot of reasons for me to leave the church before what happened to my friend. Um but what happened to my friend drove me over the edge, and I was like, oh, and then I looked back at what had happened to me and what the church had like told me during those times and I thought oh this is about keeping a system in place and like um you know if I don't fit the system then I'm gonna get really hurt pretty much and I don't um like as hard as I've tried to I don't and so um yeah I I uh I don't um I don't uh I w you know I went through a really angry time, but I don't hate religion inherently. Um I uh think that um I honestly um do still have some respect for like religious people. Um I think that um using religion as a tool of power and control is blasphemous in my opinion. Um and uh I think that um lumping people into boxes um really um goes against the idea of um you know why um people would be created so um so differently and beautifully in different ways and that um you know squashing yourself down um to fit into a tiny box uh goes against what um a creator would intend. Um so um I'm uh no longer a Christian myself. Um deconstructing uh heaven was the point that I left. Uh and uh but I also think that you can be um a queer person and be actively religious and happy and fulfilled and um honestly shame on people for making people choose between those things. Uh it's not fair to have to um lose your faith and lose your family um to love yourself. That's really messed up, and uh religious culture should stop doing that.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So many things to say about that, but I do have a couple of questions on my end, uh that like element of like I wonder if, and this is probably the worst thing to say at some point. Oh no, but I wonder if if like the first like anti like sexual Christians or or I guess we'll go back to like Judaism or or even early Christianity, and I wonder if they were asexual, kind of from the perspective of like removing them up, and I'm saying that rhetorically because actually, you know, we would know that what actually is happening is control, it's about control. Oh yeah, um, but I do wonder like there's that the plot of me, it's just like maybe some asexual is just like, you know what, that thing that you all do, I don't like it, and that's bad.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah, and like you know, like I I it is interesting what a powerful tool sexual control is because like you know, a lot of people have like uh, you know, they've done studies on like types of sexual fantasies that are really popular for people, and a lot of people like I can't believe that I think about that thing. And like it turns out that like, you know, like people think about a lot of fucked up shit all the time. Like it's uh it's what you choose to do and how you choose to engage in it that really matters, whether it be sexual or not. Um, and uh really obsessing and hyperfocusing on your thoughts um and feelings as making you wrong and bad is really, really damaging. Um, and that includes sexual ones. Um it's uh, you know, like uh people are sexual beings and it's okay to be a sexual being. And uh I I know my partner lately has uh been encouraging me, like, you know, we're just we're just mammals. Like it's it's okay to like sex and it's okay to like, you know, like want to eat when you're hungry and sleep when you're tired and like the song play the song plays through my head in times.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Are nothing but yes discovery channel. I don't like Discovery Channel. I think you hit on something that's really important though. Um, when you when you come out as a person who's bisexual or trans and both, right, you kind of have to, you cannot approach that topic without deconstructing it. If you're gonna come out the other way feeling good about yourself and accepting yourself as a as a human as a mammal, right? You have to be able to be like, this is inherently not wrong. It is okay for me to question my gender, and it is okay for me to test my sexuality. Those are all things that are sort of like so, so hard to to to do. You you mentioned your journey, and then the other part about that is this idea of coming away from this very, very like hard and like you said, legalistic background, and then the slow deconversion over there. But here's the one thing that I do like to mention, and you you you you were probably one of the first ones to mention kink. A lot of people will say a person who comes from that kind of background, oh yeah, of course they're gonna be kinky. Because we we type we tend to pathologize kink as if you are only a kinky person if you had a bad history in your past, and that people who don't have bad history or any sort of trauma are not kinky. And I don't think that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

I don't think that's correct either. I think that trauma can have a piece to do with it. Um, I think there's also good evidence that uh kink is hereditary. Um, so you know, don't think about that one too hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Uh but uh no man with the mustache needs to tell me that it's got me down to a train.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

But yeah, um I and I I um and I think that trauma can play a role in why people are kinky, but it doesn't have to. There's people I know who really identify with um the connection between trauma and kink. There's people I know who really don't. And I think that, you know, like uh both can be true. Um for me, like I'd say that um, you know, I had some kinky wiring. Uh and I would say that there are a number of my kinks that do come from some traumatic place, and that that was part of the reason that I dealt with shame around my kinks. Um, and uh coming to terms with uh kink as a way that um I could uh as as an additional avenue to work through some trauma in addition to like therapy and uh like some recovery stuff was very helpful to me. Um, but you don't have to be traumatized to be kinky. Uh you know, I don't think generally it's good to judge yourself or other people for why you're kinky. Like judge how people are kinky. Judge if they're like valuing uh enthusiastic consent and risk awareness um and uh treating people with respect and value if they're playing with them. Uh don't judge why they're kinky. Uh, you know, like like uh people uh people may just be coming to it purely from a joy place, or it may be a painful story as to why. And I don't I think that like uh like uh at the end of the day, um it uh it matters what you choose to do more than how you got there.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

That's awesome. I I want to push one more thing before we switch over to the next question. Um I know I mentioned to this i in the background, but uh oftentimes the idea of kink is kicked under the rug with the LGBT community, even though it is critical to our existence and our history. Um I'm curious, do you have any insight on that?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Um, well, I'd say that um, you know, um, you know, it is it is like there's always gonna be a section of people who want to appeal as one of the good ones or normal or we're just like you. And like, you know, there's some screaky kiki people too. Um but uh I I think that that push is you know it comes from a place of wanting more acceptance. And I think that um it is hard to come to terms with the fact that um some people just aren't going to accept you, no matter how quote unquote normal you may come across. Uh it's much better to be yourself. Um that doesn't mean you have to like broadcast being kinky everywhere, or like, you know, like say hello, my name is Steven, and I'm a bisexual um to everyone. But uh, you know, uh it does mean uh just like feeling comfortable and accepting yourself isn't bad. Um, so I'd say that's a big reason why it's downplayed, as well as like uh, you know, a rewriting of uh history that's happened more broadly around radical movements. Uh the leather community is definitely uh, I would say uh a a version of kink that uh I've seen really insist that kink is uh more political. Wouldn't say this is true for all leather people, but for a lot of leather people, they follow a uh like specific moral code. Um, and really um part of that is protesting is standing up for what they think is right. Um and I would say that I definitely identify with those elements of leather culture. Whereas like, you know, some of the um more like um there's some uh elements of leather culture I don't identify with like military structure. I've never been in the military, so I don't really care about that element. Um but I think it is cool for the people who like it. Uh and uh it's uh it it it is like an important part of our culture and history. And I would say that um the ethical kinky people that I have seen um really um do care about um protection and um safety of their broader community. Um and uh uh so I I I um I really encourage uh people if you're not kinky yourself, um that's okay. And it doesn't mean that um kinky people are inherently boogeyman or scandalous, um, care more about how people conduct themselves in um the way that they do their kink, express their kink, than um if they're kinky or not.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

I'll say this much. It's been I've had the honor of knowing you as a person, um and seeing like our story kind of in a different direction, but all in the same way, sort of coming away from our our former roots, and you have a lot of experience and everything you just said comes from a place of experience and a place of confidence now. And I think that that same element kind of comes into the resources that you started to slowly develop over time. You helped create a list of resources, and I really want to kind of switch over to the next question, which is like what resources do you feel that this uh that you could share with this community?

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I have like a bunch of resources. Here we go. There's a there's there are papers. I have a list.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah, there are papers being wrestled right now. These are a list.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

So um uh first of all, um, I recommend the WID uh for adults. I recommend the Mid Willamette Queer Collective Discord server. Um and the resources list on that server that it uh Nyx just mentioned. Um I also recommend um the Salem Munch. Um it's a great resource for exploring kink for over 21s. Really encourage people to explore um kink in um community. It's a great way to get um uh used to um exploring kink, vet people, um, ask other people what their experiences are, um, and really um keep yourself a lot safer when you're exploring kink. Um as well as sex positive forkland, um, which is uh sex education resources and exploration for people over 18. Um, I believe um that um I've I've heard some people from religious backgrounds say that um it was really helpful in filling in some gaps for them uh in terms of their sex education. Um for families, uh I recommend uh queer and alternative families in Salem, Oregon, which is a Discord group for queer parents and their children to find community, Radness and Sues, which is a uh free all-ages third space, um, the as of yet unnamed Salem Queer Center, um and uh Crafty Coyotes, which is a mutual aid, skill building, and outreach group for queer families in Salem. Um and then I've got books. Um Storytelling for a Greener World by Alita Gersey, Anthony Nansen, and Edward Scheiflin. I'm sorry, Edward. Um I think it's a really great book when you start thinking about um in an interdisciplinary way, um, about how you want the future to look like and thinking about activism as something like a future you want to build instead of what you don't want and what you don't like. Um Mutual Aid by Dean Spade. Um really good uh resource on starting to look at mutual aid. And uh Rules for Radicals by Saulinsky. A grain of salt, his perspective on mental health is not the best, but I think it's really helpful when you're thinking about practical activisms that's creating change. Next book I have is Inner Field Trip by Lisa Raine Hall. Really good um book for deconstructing some biases you have, recognizing some privilege you have, and um for me coming to terms with the contrast of coming from um uh such a um different um culture and life experience to the one that I have now.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

That's great. Thank you so much for sharing all those resources. Um the next question that we always uh like to ask is what resources do you think Salem or the surrounding area LGBTQ community uh needs today?

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Um I would love to see more intentional communities and groups that already exist in different minority groups uh working together to create change. Um I think the more we can create the world we want to see in the future right now, the more we can create the change we want to see. Um as a good starting place, I would love to see a concept like time banking as a way people can start to engage further with mutual aid. Um time banking is basically people listing skills and support they can offer and receive within their community. They earn one time credit for each hour of any service they provide to other members of the time bank, and then they can you be used to purchase services from other members. Um I'd also love to see more community gardens and um community meals reminiscent of survival programs that happened in the 60s at neighborhood parks. Um I'd also really encourage people to take care of their mental and physical health, do things they love, and vote and protest to create sustainable change. Um and I have a quote uh that I wanted to read uh by Dan Savage. During the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we danced all fucking night. The dance kept us in the fight because it was the dance we were fighting for.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Amazing. I love that. Yeah. It's a really good kind of goals to get into. I know intentional community is something that a lot of queer individuals are like, I want to have a commune, and then they're like, or or I wanna have a intentional community or commune, and then they're like, Okay, but how or or or the the sheer amount of like social labor that takes.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yes. Yeah. And that's I think why it's so important to start building what we can now. Um get to know your neighbors. Um get to know other people in like um communities you engage with who live near you. Um like uh it it's a cultural shift that has to happen too. Um social media connection is just not the same as in-person connection and the type of growth that has uh and that impact on a person. So I I um build it slowly, be uh be kind and and giving to people who are kind and giving to you. And uh yeah, um especially right now we need community. So and that's why part of why we're making the Queer Center. But you can do things just in your local community to um get more connected to people and have um and start to create um the kind of like world that you want to ultimately see. You don't have to wait for a law to pass or um for this thing or that thing to be different. You can just do things and if they don't work, you can try something else.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah.

unknown 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Awesome. Oh, there's the bosun.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Steven, our time here is up. Thank you so much, Steven. It was so good to talk to you. Please tell us where in the sea we can find you.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Um probably the biggest place is the Mid-Willamette Queer Collective uh Discord or um doing resource tail tabling at um at various uh uh fairs and events uh in the Midwillamite area. Um I also wanna um say um thank you and much love to um my partner Snarfy and my found family. Um I'm really grateful for y'all.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

We know Snarfy. One of the one of the past episodes, right? Um so great. Uh thank you so much. Uh please like and subscribe and review if you like our podcast. Uh you can support us on Patreon at Crafty Coyotes, no space in between words.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

And if you can put on a good word with the captain after your time is uh served, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Considering what I did, I feel like my word might have the opposite effect.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Good point. Alright, and remember, Salem, even when the seas are choppy, hoist your colors.