Episode #13 The Driver Operator

Colin Kelley, Mark Carcamo and Cameron Monahan meet up with Engineers from 3 different West Coast Fire Departments to talk about the critical role of the Driver Operator position

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Hey, welcome everyone back to another episode of the Firemanship Podcast by West Coast Offense. I'm your host, Cameron Monahan. Uh with me as always, uh Colin Kelly, Mark Carcamo. We got a few guests on today. Um, we had uh a few captains on a couple weeks ago, and now we got some uh driver operators on. We have uh Randy Cogburn, Jamie Wriggler, and James Smith. So uh good morning, gentlemen. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for coming on, guys. Of course. Hey, why don't we just start off right away, guys? We'll just go with uh bio. So uh we'll just hey tell us a little bit about yourself, how long you worked, where you work, uh, how long you've been a driver for, um, what that you know, where you what kind of uh engine or truck you're on, and uh we'll start from there. Um maybe start with you, Randy.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

All right, perfect. Uh my name's Randy Cogburn. Been on the uh in the fire service for 15 years, nine years of that has been as a driver operator. Currently I work for a large department in southern Nevada. I've been at my current bib house for the the nine years, except with the exception of one year, went off to the TRT, uh, one onto our TRT team. So came back. My passion came back for my truck, and I came back and now I've been back for about two years and um have truck engine rescue at my station and we cross Man all. We operate, there's a rotation, and uh maybe we'll talk a little bit about that more later. But yep. And that rescue is a rescue, rescue ambulance, right? Ambulance, correct. Correct. Yep. But happy to be here. What's the TRT? Uh technical rescue station. Yep, gotcha. Yep, heavy rescue. So I left there, went, was there for a year and then came back and wrote a rode a shift with uh Colin and came back and had to come back. So it was a good shift, and yeah, that was that's a whole story in itself. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

So uh yeah, yeah, so it's good. Good deal, good deal. Um Wriggler, tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Yeah, my name's Jamie Wriggler. I work for a small fire station department uh about 45 minutes south of Salt Lake City. Um if I mention the word or the the city provo, it's next to that. Um I've been in the fire service 19 years, and of the last seven, uh I've been CAMS driver. Um currently is assigned to a 2022 Pierce uh TDA. Uh before that, um was assigned to a uh 2017 rear mount Pierce. Um we take pride in in truck work. Uh we considers ourselves uh aggressive truck uh company in the state of Utah. Um we have uh we don't really cross the floor very much. We do have a reserve engine which we'll run out of when our when our our TDA is out of service, uh maintenance, things like that. And we also have a rescue ambulance staff with two. So uh thanks for the opportunity, Mark Collin. It's good to see you guys. It's been a few years. Hashtag BTIU. Uh psychiatrists, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Hey Jamie, can I can I ask you a question before you get to till we get uh get to the uh Southern California sissy? Um you said seven years. Uh is that in rank, or is that just you?

SPEAKER_04 3:49

That's yeah, I've I've got 19 years total and seven years uh operating.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

As a driver, okay operator. Cool. All right, let's go to the Hollywood Starlet because they all everybody from Southern California takes a little moving star.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

That didn't take long. Thanks, Mark. Uh and my name is Jimmy Smith. Uh I currently work for the Long Beach Fire Department. Uh, I get about 20 years of the fire service. Uh started with Cal Fire, had a brief stint with uh with the Los Angeles Fire Department where I met Mark um and then worked up in Ventura County for the federal fire department up there. I worked on a uh on a quint there, um, which is weird to have uh water on a truck company, but we made it work up there and uh and um and then I came to Long Beach Fire Department in 2012. Um, I've been there since and I've been a driver for coming up on 10 years there. I'm at a um I've been at busy assignments um my whole career, minus a little penalty tour over to the east side. Um we won't get into that, but um I've been busy on the on the west side of Long Beach. Uh the station that I'm at currently is uh is one of our oldest stations, was built in the 39, 1940. So it's a cool, quaint house with a uh with a rear mount, uh pierce um ladder truck and uh and an engine. We don't have an ambulance there, and then um I'm sure we'll get into it. But the way that uh our engineers work in Long Beach is we drive the the pumper or the fire engine for two shifts of the segment, and then we drive the truck for the other two. So happy to be here. Um and uh looking forward to to learning and then you know maybe answering a few questions. Good deal, good deal.

SPEAKER_05 5:30

Where'd you work Cal Fire at?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Where up in State? Up in uh Mariposa MMU. Oh, okay. Yeah, way up there by Yosemite, and then I work down in Riverside Unit as well.

SPEAKER_05 5:39

So uh that's where I started uh when I was 17 was Riverside County Fire out in Hemet.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Those guys get it, man. That's uh you know, just sneaky. There's some busy fire companies down there.

SPEAKER_05 5:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Hey, good to meet you guys. Thanks for coming on again. Um, glad to hear it. Um, first question uh that I got for you guys um is uh what what attracted you to stay in your position so long? I mean it sounds like you've each got several years in those positions. Um I just curious what what attracted you to just want to maybe stay in that for a longer bit of time?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

You know, I'll go ahead and start off if that's all right. Um I I had a company officer that I have a lot of respect for. As firefighters, we were partners at uh a house for three years and he ended up promoting, and he's always about supporting people, promoting through the ranks and getting the experience and everything. And we had the opportunity when I first um started working at 61. He was there on a temporary assignment. I was bid in. And after working together and him seeing after, you know, little history, Mark came down to the firehouse and um ran me through the ringer for eight, 10 hours in the day, which I'm just I look back on that day, and that was a a big point for me that I learned a lot from. But it was interesting. This this company officer told me, hey, you know, uh, I don't usually say this, but if you plan on um promoting to company officer, captain, um, don't because I need someone like you. And that to me, that impacted me because I know he supports me. And if I decided to go the company officer route, he would support me a hundred percent. But for somebody that I have a lot of respect and love for, he said, you know what, stay where you're at because I need I need one of you. I need you. And to this day, he still tries to get me. Um, and it just uh that was the first time where I was like, I'm on to something here. And um, with my background in automotive, um, nine years owning my own automotive repair shop, um, it's just been ever since day one, I knew engineer was going to be my final spot. And um through all the people that have uh influenced me and be and have been there for me, it's been great and given me an opportunity to have a true love for my position and how I can maximize my position to make the fire ground that much more productive and and successful. So it was interesting how that that came about for me.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

So, can I ask you, Randy? Uh, minus your uh officer's influence, does your department create that same culture of, hey, you know, we need guys that are strong and all the positions that need to be filled, right? And and I'm not talking about, hey, don't, don't promote because hey, I need you forever, but do you feel that culture is built within your department for us to go, hey, you know what? We need south solid firemen, but we need solid drivers, right? All the way up the ladder. We need people that unpack their bags and say, hey, give it to me, eight, 10 years, whatever, and then move on. Do you think that's there? And if it if it is there, has it always been there?

SPEAKER_00 8:56

So I think it it our department's almost made a turn. Uh, we're a very young department now. We have so many new people. They're they're cruising through the ranks uh pretty quickly. And I think that has in a lot of ways hindered that ability to identify and keep people in the ranks because their strengths. Um, and as far as the culture on the department, back in the day, we used to have our engineers that when we would go do our uh our annual physical, we used to get our turnouts in plastic bags. Those those engineers would go back to their next annual physical with those same turnouts in their plastic bags. And so nine years ago, I set out to change the culture. And what it's been, it's been one person at a time, somebody that I can talk to and help lead the way. That these engineers, we don't need 10 engineers standing at the pump panel anymore. We need engineers that are ready to suit up and go to work. So the the department culture has actually came within instead of being led by the upper, the upper management, if you will. It has been 100% us creating that culture. And it's been changing one person at a time and mentoring and showing value and getting suited up and going to work on a on an incident. So instead of standing in a top panel for 30 minutes and jaw jacking.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

Good deal, good deal. Uh Jamie, James, what what attracted you to that engineer role?

SPEAKER_04 10:40

Well, for me, it's it's it's um I think for the department I work for, I think guys we've seen in the past climb ranks too fast, right? And maybe not have a true understanding of that engineer slash operator role and understanding that rig. Um the way we operate now is is fairly new. Going back to about the first time West Coast offense came to our department and taught us what we know now. And the way we're operating and the relationship I have with with Cam, I feel like that needs to be passed on, right? I don't I don't foresee myself um chasing that captain position. Um, I've had plenty of opportunity to. Uh I just there's something about coming to work, walking through that door, knowing your role, knowing your responsibilities, having that influence on those younger guys, right? We hear the term uh that engineer is the middleman between the guys on the floor, the new guys and the captain, right? And we I've developed those relationships with those new guys, and trust me, we've had plenty of them too. Our department sounds like it's very similar to Randy's. Um, but being able to teach those guys what's right, what's wrong, and how to mask up and how to throw that ladder and and how to cut that analyzed roof or that's four-story center hall and the way we're doing it and why we're doing it. I think it's important for engineers to stay in their spot so they can pass on that role X and pass that down to the younger generation. Because we all know, um, Mark, you know, that clock's ticking, right? At some point, we're gonna leave the fire service. And if we're not leaving it better than we found it, I mean that's that's a disservice, right? So I I really enjoy that informal role of mentoring those young guys and just teaching them what's right. I like it, I like it.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, I mean, I think I could probably echo it um and and combine everything that was just said. For me, it wasn't necessarily a move. I always thought I was gonna be a fireman and then promote to captain. My dad was the Los Angeles uh fire department captain, and that was kind of like always a goal. And as my career is moved into this driver's rank, I actually don't see myself promoting to that officer rank, mostly because um I see the job, um not the day-to-day run volume that totally affects it, but like just the job at a fire captain is more in the front office, making sure guys are getting target solutions done, you know, handling personnel issues uh and complaints, and being the one where kind of the buck stops there. And I just want to be a fireman, and I think personally, I think that the expert fireman, the the one that should be excellent at all facets of firemanship. There's a plug, is the engineer. The engineer should be the person that everybody looks to and is like when this guy shows up, he's gonna be able to execute, he knows the SOGs, he knows the operation, and he's gonna do it every single time the bell goes off. Every automatic alarm, every you know, um uh you know, structure fire and and and you know, parking at an incident, you know, we're not gonna like skip those things. And so for me, once I got into that engineer rank, I'm like, I gotta stay here and try to continue to learn, but then try to continue to provide an example that I could build off of just being a fireman and and trying to get that be something that is more contagious, and it's like you don't need to run off and promote, you know. What are you what are you looking for? You're looking for there's a lot of chiefs in there saying where you know guys didn't want to retire because they were scared that nobody was gonna call them sir anymore, you know. So it's like what what why are you promoting? Are you doing it to benefit the members and to you know mitigate incidents and be the person that's gonna show up and know that that you're gonna you're gonna be the subject matter expert and you're gonna you know help the incident come to a resolution, or are you just doing it so you could be the one that talks on the radio, or you can be the one that uh you know that that people look to as a as a leader. Um, and so staying in the rank for me for promoting and staying in the rank for me uh was something that uh was important that the the things that I saw that I think our agency could do better as engineers were when I got hired there 15 years ago, um you know it was like breast jackets and turnout pants, or sometimes breast jackets and blue pants. And I'm like, you know, what what what's going on? You know, and so with that, um, and and I'll just wrap it up. With that, uh, we started an engineer academy about six years ago, and and I was part of that first class and part of you know, helping kind of form, hey, how do we want the engineer rank to look like in the Long Beach fire department going forward? And and I and I think that that Randy brought it up, it's like, do you want to leave it better than you found it? And if you're gonna complain about a certain facet of our job, then be the person that's gonna put in the work to try and make it better. And so um, that's what I like to think that I'm trying to do, and that's why you know I don't really see myself promoting out of this position, although you know, I've been asked and kind of encouraged. I think there's a lot of value to the driver's rank leadership and how we can do things a little bit different because maybe we're not beholden to the same um you know rules or expectations that a company officer is, and we get to still be a fireman and still influence those crews and then influence positive outcomes on incidents.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

So yeah, yeah. 100%. Um, there's a lot to say about the the uh ability to still be a fireman, right? Um, that that's that's a lot to give up, I think. And some guys give it up pretty easily. Um Mark, Colin, you guys got any questions that you wanted to shoot out at them?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

I mean, Colin, if you got something, but I I'm I'm as you guys are talking, I just got question after question. Uh uh, you got something you want to ask, Colin? No, it's all you, bud. Okay, so I I I have a question about that company officer, right? You guys have all mentioned that you know they seem to have, well, at least in Randy's case, encouraged the the uh mob or or the staying put. Um, do you guys see in your departments the company officer that has not tagged that base as the driver and become the uh captain or lieutenant? And how does that look for you guys when you look to the right and know uh some guys actually have a knack for it? I can think of very few though, um, that that have I have worked around in my career that I go, yeah, I without being a driver, that guy's gonna be a great company officer just because he had that mentality, right? He was he was certified on all the apparatus, he understood what that driver's role was, whether in you know, for my department as engineer or apparatus operator. Um, do you guys feel that you get support from that guy? And or uh better than that, do you feel like for the most part, the guys that you're driving around have that experience level? Um, are they telling you, hey, stop here? Is the micromanagement going on? Hey, pull a line here, hey, lay a line where, or are they giving you free reign to go, uh, I am very versed in this, I know how to do this, and if you let me, I will make you shine. How does that look for you guys?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Well, for me, I know at my house on Truck 61, um, anybody that comes there, if there's overtime captains, company officers for the day that come in, they already know what they're gonna get. Um, whether they had experience on as an engineer or not, and what did that experience as an engineer look like? What kind of engineer were they? Were they one to just jump in, you know, release the brake, drive, set the brake when they got there, and that was it? They were the driver for the day. Or did they actually excel and push themselves to know their roles and responsibilities and even take it a step further? There's a mindset out there. It's interesting. Um, my my my company officer, one of them was not an engineer, and one um was an engineer for I believe around six years. And um the bottom line is if I put my rig there, there's no question. There's no question in my mind. I have 100% unwavering support. And it's through been through the people that have that have helped me, encouraged me, mentored me, and to get me where I'm at today. Um I think a lot of if you really take a look at company officers at times and you ask them, hey, would you have would you have felt better if you would have come through the ranks? Some of them say yes and some of them say no. Um, whether or not that affects the way that they operate, the bottom line is if they were an operator, driver operator early on in their career, what did that exactly look like? Um, there is a mindset that comes, I think, with every rank on the fire in the fire service. And I had a guy that I was mentoring at my station when and I helped him um promote. He said, You keep saying mindset, mindset, mindset. Well, what does that mean exactly? Well, for me, what my my mindset starts is the moment I walk through that door in the morning and I take a lap through my barn before I even go inside the station and see if the same apparatus sits there from the shift before when I left or the sixth day that I that I left and came back to, what equipment's sitting on the go back to the warehouse and get replaced. And that's when my mindset kicks in. My will start spinning. What do we have for the day? And it carries through everything I do. And there is a mindset that um, you know, and the and the people that are sitting to the right of you is very critical to support you or not. And I've never had a problem of someone questioning me, but at the end we've had discussions, and those company officers that have been engineers in the past have had valid, um, valid pointers to me. Um, but if they did not pass that rank, I don't think it's a positive or a negative, except for getting out and doing the job and setting up and setting up uh your your, you know, roll out your SOGs, train, train, train, train. And um, but as far as that goes, Mark, I feel like uh it's a yes and a no for me um that they're better or or not because of of not going through the rank of engineer.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

So interesting statement, only because I can only look back to my things, right? And we're we're such a large apartment that it occurs pretty regularly, you know. It does. It's like, you know, for us way back when our lists were very small. So those drivers' lists, the engineers historically went deeper, you know, into the actual list because there's more of them. But the AOs, you know, there were some things where there'd be 10, 11 guys that promoted off a list. So, you know, you're not getting that guy that's Been a truck driver necessarily. And uh it's very interesting, right? To to train somebody to go, hey, I've been an engine guy and I understand engine work, but do you truly understand in the position you're sitting at? And uh I I my hat's off to the guy that just goes, Hey, run run the truck, do your job, right? That's simple. It's it's like, I will fit in, tell me what your SOPs are. But I had questions whenever I had a sod guy that I didn't know. And the first thing I'd ask him is, Are you getting off the fire truck today? You know, they take offense, take, take offense to it. Absolutely. Are you getting off the rig? I need to know. I need to make like you're talking about, make that adjustment from from the start of the day, not in the middle of the day where we get our first run, and this guy's sitting there, you know, crocheting in a cab. It's like, okay, what in the hell are you doing now? Yep. At least allowed me to form a game plan, I guess, for something better, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

You know, and those exactly. And those company officers that I've had, it's been amazing for me, going back to what James said. Um, when that company officer gets off, I'm like, this is what I need. This is a I need a water supply, this is whatever the situation is, this is what I need. And they just look at me and say, Okay, you got it. And then they make sure I have what I need. But if if it, you know, it just for me, it just uh to have somebody on that, especially a ladder truck and running truck ops, we gotta have people that are in for the day. And if it's in for the day, it's gotta be all in. We can't have somebody there just to ride the seat. It's gotta be sit down with that company officer. These are our SOGs, this is what we need to accomplish today. Let's get out and do some touches today. Um, and and and let's get this to where we need it to be for the day. And it's got to be first thing in the morning, and we got it, we got it. And and as a as a driver operator, that is 100% your you drive that in the morning. Uh, when that when those company officers get in for the day, this is what we need, this is what the crew needs today. Let's go out and get some touches and get the day rolling. So if something come comes our way, we've we've at least got a plan and we and we know what what what our responsibilities are. And I love it because I, as a driver operator, you have to know each seat assignment, their responsibilities. Because if you have someone there for the day and they're coming around the back of the truck and they're not coming onto the right truck or grabbing a ladder to throw the secondary, you're like, hey, this isn't your responsibility right now. Your responsibility is that secondary go. I got this, and um, be there as the middle guy to make sure that everybody knows their responsibilities for the day. And that's that's just huge to be that middle between the crew and the captain as well. Because your thumb is on the pulse, you're there around them all day long. You go to your captain and you say, Cap, this is what we need. This the these guys are hungry and they need to get out and go to work, and they need they need their touches.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

So on that same thing, hey Jamie. Um you guys ride around with a three or four-man truck and up in up in Utah.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

Typically it's three. Um staffing supposedly changed it, and we'll have our four will be our minimum.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

But uh so as it's like as it says right now, you have three and you're gonna go to four. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I yes. Okay, so so you got a working supervisor, correct? I mean, that's just no ways that you can't do that, right? So so the uh press the question for you, and I know your officer, however, when he's not there, how does that look? Because I see video after video that the you know the officers lead hook and I get manpower, not everybody's manpower rich, like I was used to. However, do you think that they try to dictate a pattern to you guys as a driver, especially on that roof? Uh, as far as hey, where to cut? Do you guys formulate the plan? How does that look with you two guys? Because you your killer men may be off throwing that secondary ladder and you guys are already climbing the aerial to go perform your function. Um how how does that look? Do you does he follow your lead? And I know that you're probably not sounding again. I don't know however that works for you guys, but um, does he follow your lead? And do you tell him where you want to be? Because I see it all the time. And then all of a sudden, this guy draws a line with the hook, right? And it just drives me bonkers to watch these guys go out there and go, okay, here it is. Here's where your top cut goes. And it's like uh my top cut, first top cut is cut your head off, kick you off the roof, but okay.

unknown 26:30

Right?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

For for us, that engineer's in charge of that roof, right? Uh, he's leading that operation. I have never had an officer tell me where to park, where to position, where to throw the aerial. That engineer's in charge of that roof operation, right? Now, if my my tailorman's off throwing that secondary and he might be a minute, that that captain might beat him to the roof, right? He might do that initial sounding so I can get my inspection cut, which is fine. Eventually that Tailorman's gonna make to the roof, right? And he'll become that lead hook and then uh do my sounding for me.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

And then your captain drops back and becomes that safety guy.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Yes. Yep, yep. That's so how it looks for me. And as far as to go back to we were talking about the some of the questions you guys uh had that Randy um uh commented on. I don't I don't feel um we've all seen it, right? We've had captains promote that haven't necessarily wrote that seat. And I'm not discrediting those guys, they might have a good understanding of that roof operation and how that looks. Um but what they're missing in in my opinion is the touches, the experience, the the actually getting to the roof at three o'clock in the morning with orange and red in your face and black and cutting that hole. You can't no matter how much training you do, you can't add those real life stressors, right? So I'm I I is it it can be good and bad, but I see without those officers being that engineer, being that AO on the roof, running that rope operation, I think it can cause some hesitation when when that guy's your officer, right? But knowing what helps us in our department is we have seat assignments, right? We have arrival assignments based off occupancy and what so that helps drive that. But as far as the rope operation, that that's the engineer, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:24

So oper operators in charge.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

Operators in charge, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Very good. As I look for you guys, Jimmy.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, so we're uh we're an agency about 400 members, we're four-person truck companies, we have three TDAs, and then the the ladder truck, as I said before, at my station is um is a four-person uh rear mount. So the kind of benefit of truck seven is that everybody uh when we get there, we got four players, right? Everybody's dressed, everyone's ready to go. Um, as far as the cabins and how they fill in, I kind of have a uh I'm I'm blessed with the with the with the guy that I work for. Um on the truck the majority of the time. Uh, yeah, he's been exceptional in allowing me to try to you know develop the crew and and kind of set the pace. If we have junior captains or we have outside captains that come and work, um, I would say the majority of them weren't engineers, and I think Randy brings up a good point. Is like, what type of an engineer were they when they were an engineer? And you kind of factor that in. Well, we talked, uh, you know, we talk about you know, size of like what's the day look like? Usually the night before, I'll look at staffing and I'll see right now we have a vacancy in in one cap and spot at my station. So I like, hey, who's coming to work? Did somebody did they call and sick? Like, who is in the front seat? I can manage the back seat, who's in the front seat, and what can I expect from them? So I can already kind of get a game plan when I'm coming into work. And uh, you know, one of the big things for me is like if you're unsure about you don't know the individual's body of work or they've had questionable incidents, like let's just have a quick conversation and and let's just get it out with an expectation of what I have for you as a captain before the bell goes off. How many of us have come to work? Some of the best fires are those shift change fires, you know, it right? You get there and all of a sudden you're like, oh shit, right? So uh, so just to set an expectation, you know, a big thing that they've talked about on this podcast and and a and a and a big issue that is maybe maybe it's all over the country, but you know, in in Long Beach is water supply. I can't believe we're I can't believe we're still talking about it. And then and when we've talked about it on you guys have talked about on this podcast, you know, ad nauseum, which is good because we want to still have the conversation until that problem's fixed. But I'll just give you an example that I think helps answer the question. Um, I've had plenty of times where we're going to an incident, we got a good loom-up or something, and I'll just, you know, I'll toss the map book at the captain. Hey, get a hydrant for me if I don't know, you know, we're going to another district over or whatever. That's an expectation that we have in our department. Is the captain will at least give you uh the location of a hydrant based on the address. Um, but don't be afraid as a driver to like, hey, what are you doing? And I'm pulling over, you're pulling over to take a hydrant. The cams, like, what are you doing? Fire's down the street. I'm like, I know where the fire is, I can see it. I'm stopping at this fire hydrant, and we're gonna put some plumbing on the ground because that's the right thing to do. And I've had I've had FU fights on the rig during the operation. I've gone back to the station and got to the front office and had conversations after the incident where you almost, it was like a borderline, you almost got a direct order, like, hey, the next company will get it. It's unacceptable to me, you know. And thankfully, the the officer that I have that was not a driver, um, we had uh we had what turned into a triple fatality fire right around the corner from our firehouse. Of course, we were on a uh uh a person experiencing homelessness at the 7-Eleven, and then the fire was right across the street from our station. So we cleared that incident after we took care of that patient, of course, and we went to the fire. And so coming in, there's a loom up. The I see the engine company, I didn't see any of the initial engine company. There was no rag behind the rig. I stopped at the hydrant, and my captain's like, What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm taking a hydrant, and there was no conversation, he goes perfect, you know. So I think that is an example of he he kind of already knows my expectation that I have that he'll look up a hydrant, and that he knows the expectation that I'm gonna pull over him and I'm gonna bring water. And I think that both that that kind of lends to the discussion of it's okay to have expectations when you're with your normal crew, those are SOGs and SOPs that should pretty much go unsaid because we're gonna run the play. But when you have out-of-house guys, you gotta set that expectation early and you gotta stay firm and like this is what we do here at Fire Station, whatever, on whatever shift. Um glad to have you here today, but this is the program that that we're gonna run, right? And hopefully you don't get a direct order. But but I think that the majority of our captains to to to wrap it up is we have more captains that were not drivers, Mark, but we have captains that realize their strengths and plug themselves into the firehouse in a position to where we don't have a lot of shoulder hopping coming from the the the right seat and telling us how to do our job. But I think in certain senses, if there is instruction to be given, uh I don't think that there's anything wrong with giving engineers that maybe might not be as operationally minded some some hints, some tips, you know, aerial ladder placement based on what he sees that he might not have seen because he's you know focused in. So there's there's value to to having been a captain and a driver, but some of our better captains were never drivers, and I have great relationships that I work and we work very well together.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

I I think that's kind of gonna lead me to my next question. That's gonna be you're talking about these guys. So do you guys, it seems like all of you guys have the ability to cross the floor and become that engine guy. Do you think that that is a hindrance and you're in your operational capacity as a as a supposed or you know, quote unquote truck guy? Uh or do you think it's a benefit?

SPEAKER_01 34:22

I think it's specific to the member, Mark. You know, dude, we have engineers that that um are just happy to just drive a pumper and they're good engineers. And when they come and work at uh at a truck house, they'll take the engine spot. And normally the guys that are assigned to the to the truck houses are truck-minded engineers and they and they want to do truck work, and that's why they're there. They want to train. And again, we only have um we only have four trucks in the city of Long Beach, but every I would say every engineer that's at those truck houses that are filling those spots all want to do truck work. And when we have engineers that come from the outside to maybe work saw day or or whatever, uh, those guys realize, hey, I'm I'm a I'm an engine engineer. I'm a you know, I'm a pumper driver.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And then they just that could create a whole new set of issues with and I and I say that is if you know, and I say that only because I know it happens, right? Uh here I am in a truck-rich society and still have problems with guys that come from a single-engine uh uh firehouse, and that is uh there's there's never any onus on them to think about, hey, what do I do if I'm first due and they become a party of one for lack of something better, right? Hey, am I doing the right thing here and providing a spot or thinking at least maybe not the spot, but giving this guy an actual opportunity to put that aerial ladder up if needed, right? That kind of a fire. And I say that, and it's like it can happen like that, right? You get a guy, you guys go out on the truck, you go somewhere, you have a bullshit incident or a legitimate incident, and they get the structure fire, right? And now you should go, like you said, hey, you're coming in with this rig, it's a quint, obviously, right? And you're bringing water for this guy, and he's an engineer. There's a and my there's a first red flag, right? If I'm bringing water for you guys when I should be thinking, uh uh hopefully, uh something besides that, right? I I know it's it's you know what the way kind of what danger comes to the territory. If they got hose on this rig and they told me it's a quint, uh yeah, if guys are coming up short, I'm gonna I'm gonna take and tag that base for that guy and bring him a supply. I guess what I'm getting at is it can backfire though, right? Just like because you have a guy that's willing to drive the engine that day from out of the house. That also could be a plan where it's like, hey, you know what? They're used to being a single function guy. We have happen with us uh because the two piece engine at the task force get these guys and they're automatically they're driving the pump. And it's like, no, I think it's a bullshit line for me to put a side guy on the pump. It's like put them on the engine, or at least there's a supervisor in my eyes that can tell them, hey, no, hey, you know, there's a truck coming, right? Hey, lay a line. This isn't a single engine. I want you to lay a line, right? Those kind of things can come from that officer. But I think crossing that floor is an interesting dichotomy for you guys. It really is, man. It's like you got to be good at two things, very good at both of those things, and and understand why you're there. And you know, only having four trucks, shit, then for lack of something better. Do you got four platoons or three? We have three of those. Okay, yeah. So so think, I mean, I'm just going, shit, man, there's a very small group of guys that truly understand the importance of, hey, if it's a truck fire where they got to throw that stick to leave that guy room, right? To to build that rapport. And we tried to get the uh single engines out with us and drill, but it's kind of like they, you know, kind of lose interest. They don't want to be overwhelmed by the task force concept and a stronger, in my eyes, a stronger personality from that type of house. You know, they don't have those strong engine in my eyes. Again, I'm just going with my realization of what happened in my early in my career. There were some strong engine companies that kicked ass and they understood the mission. Now it just seems like, okay, hey, I got an 800 ambulance paramedic, they're tagging a base to the next job. Uh, and I think it's it makes it difficult for the guys that take it serious and or understand, hey, what the actual spotting position should look like, not on a single family, or even though you can screw that up, but you know, um, on that where the aerial ladder is going to actually be going up.

unknown 38:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

So that's why we started the engineer academy and seeing some of the deficiencies, and like, you know, guys were just locked into you know, the truck company operations stuff wasn't so didn't have as much of a stronghold as it does now. So we're like, if we develop the academy and thankfully we got you know support from the department, now we're we're we're breaking up a driving section, a pumping section, and and a truck company aerial ladder, specific aerial ladder placement operations, tools and equipment. Um, and so realizing that that has not been where we came from, and and just a matter of fact, is just the way our departments ran, is that we're probably gonna run into those problems that you're talking about. We're like, we got to start so six years ago, we started to say, hey, we're gonna make, we're gonna create all things in equal proportions and and really lean on um making sure that individuals understand the importance of the of the direction in which the Long Beach Fire Department wants to go as it relates to truck company operations.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

That that's awesome that those guys back that play. That is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Mark, if I may, I think regarding that question, it's kind of a twofold problem. You described uh, you know, what has gone on your experience when a single engine house guy comes into the task force. And I think that is a separate, there's just a different whether let's say a single engine guy of whatever rank comes into a dual house, truck engine house, um, and maybe even if they never put on get on the truck, just being at that house, they're going to have their their their ideas, opinions, mindset challenged and broadened. Um, you get out from that, you know, what we call that echo chamber of that single engine house, um, to it to a to a more symbiotic company where we're relying on each other, the conversations that happen, um, the attitude, the entire day is built around those things. That in and of itself, I think, improves that individual's outlique without ever serving a day on the truck. Obviously, that's a bonus if they do. Um, it's obvious obviously desired. Um, but yeah, that's a that is a but the regarding crossing the floor. I think I told I told Mark this a while back as a newer fireman, I hated it. I hated it because I'm constantly swapping hats and trying to, I'm still trying to learn this engine shit. Now I'm okay. I got I hated it. But now being on the end of my career, it's damn sure it was a steep learning curve, but it's damn sure made me a better fireman. Again, I see the I definitely see the value in not crossing the floor. But when you work in a place where you have to, um, yeah, at first it sucked, but now it's I'm I'm a much better truckman because of my engine time and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yes, I I agree with that. Um, crossing over to engine truck, it has created opportunities for me. Knowing what I know about my my truck spotting and where where I need to be, it makes it easier for me when I jump on an engine. I already know where I'm going. And it even has created in the past training opportunities where the truck was like, Hey, why did you park there? I was gonna go here. I said, Well, I left you an entire in inside spot that you could have put pulled up to my my cross lay bed and you would have been had everything. Oh, okay. And it's just training opportunities, and I was gonna get get to that as well. I I feel like on at 61, I have really tried, and it's become a multi-company drill hub. I rely on my engineers at these other stations surrounding 61 because 61's dead center of our battalion, and we're always getting together with with with those other crews and step by step thoughts where where where are their minds at, even on incidents. We know that I'm gonna go in regardless of the incident, I'm getting my spot because I got two great TDI TDA guys here that are I'm pretty jealous of when you have a single axle 75 foot uh HD ladder Pierce. Uh I I have a it's uh the reach is challenging, and I've got to be creative. Um, and with that creativity comes um involvement from my surrounding engineers, and so it's up to me to train those companies around me and how I could support them and they how they can support me. And we're going out, we're getting together with them, and I've seen a lot of success in that. And there's a lot of um opportunities after an incident, you've got a mentor. Pull that engineer, that driver operator aside off that off that engine and say, Hey, what were you thinking when you parked here? And be open to what they have to say, and then take that opportunity to mentor and say, Hey, what do you think about this? You know, this is where, yeah, you parked right in the middle of the road, and I've got a three-story, 50-foot setback building that I need every bit I can I can get to get up top, and if I need to go topside on that building. So it's uh it's been good to be a hub of multi-company drills in our battalion, and it's our responsibility to do that and to help those other operators around us to help them succeed. In in return, it helps us succeed as well as a truck company.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

I think probably the good thing about that too is if you guys got firemen that are crossing the floor, is they get the vision of what that guy's doing, right? Hey, is he first due? Is he second due? How does he manipulate the apparatus in order to get what he needs to get? And then also bring those ideas back to that engine where you hey, and it happened, you know, all the time is hey, the two guys that are in the front seat are both overtime guys from out of the house. The importance of a solid fireman cannot be overstated. They have the toughest job in the fire industry, and that's just my opinion, because they do so they wear so many hats, so many damn hats, right? And we require so much of them. Remember all these thoughts. Oh, yeah, we might have to act as captain, oh, act as engineer, right? There's so many things they do and that they that we demand that they be, you know, at a certain level. I'm not gonna say they have to be superstars, but at a certain level, you know, and not 70%, because I think it's a bullshit number, but I, you know, and I I would say that's that's probably what's uh when I when I talk uh you know about uh Cameron and uh Jamie and go, shit, they got one guy, one guy besides themselves. Do they rotate to you guys, uh Cam or or Jamie, excuse me, do you get that rotation or do you get to build that guy that goes, I want to train this guy as my truck guy?

SPEAKER_04 44:52

Yeah, I mean that falls back to our tillermen, right? Um in the past we've had dedicated tillermen in that spot, right? And it's up to me to train him so we're on the same page uh whether we respond to that structure fire or not. But I I've had recently I've had very how do I say this, uh different guys back there. I've had I've had many guys back there, right? And uh that team continuity, uh it's a little unsettling, right? Because he don't he doesn't he doesn't know the operation, right? Um sometimes they put guys back there just to fill a seat, and I totally that's totally unacceptable, right? Um yeah. We've we've been through a lot of Tillerman, Cam, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Um so do you guys have a rotation set up so all the guys in the house will rotate through that seat, or do you try to keep it as permanent as possible?

SPEAKER_04 45:48

We try to keep it as permanent as possible, so there's very little movement on that truck. Just trying to keep that cohesiveness together, right? When it comes to that operation.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Um how does that look though when this guy wants vacation? How does that look when this guy goes off injured on duty? How how do you guys keep those other people still, right? Because it it can become kind of a contrast, because you could have this guy go, he's the guy, right? And then the jealousy will always rear its ugly head. It will, right? And so you'll get then you'll get maybe the guy that goes, Well, hey, fuck it. They don't want me to be that guy, then I won't be that guy, right? I mean, and that's how some people's minds work. I get it. I mean, it's it's a I I guess it's a legitimate bitch, right? It's like, hey, what do I have to look forward here, right? What where's this? Hey, when do I climb up and get to wear my sunglasses and you are never sets because I'm cool, you know? I think it becomes interesting for you guys, especially you guys.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Yeah. Uh we we have, if you will, backup tillermen, guys that are certified to till the back of that truck. But uh we try to keep that movement to a minimum. We get guys back there every once in a while that goes back to what Randy said first thing in the morning. So you sit them down. Here's the expectations, right? This is what you're responsible for. You're that lead hook on the on the roof. Uh you're you're responsible for throwing that secondary. And we got and we like Cam does a really good job of morning debriefings. But um, if we're unsure, the first thing we're doing, we're pulling that truck out, we're throwing it to a building, we're going through a roof off, we're gonna walk through it, talk about it. Because the last thing we want to do is get caught with our pants down, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yeah, wow, and and and so you're talking about getting a fourth guy, possibly with staffing.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

That that's the word, that's the direction we're gonna be moving would be a four-minute four match.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

What what a bonus for you guys. What a damn that'd be huge, right? Yeah, but that it'll be it'll be definitely uh so g changing for you guys to have that fourth member, you know, just another set of hands is always welcome.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Actually, was I was blessed. I had five guys on there, and it's like, holy shit. Up 24-7, you know. You can tackle so many things, you can split that truck, you can go topside inside, you can go three up, three to two three to the roof, two outside. It just gives you so many possibilities when your new truck on scene.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

So Pam, you'll finally get your dream of just sitting in the cab, bud. Yeah, you should have been waiting. I've been waiting for it, dude.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Hey, that's that's when uh Jamie has to make sure that the heater and the air conditioner works all right. So I need to sit there and fuck with these things. I need that ambient 70 degrees.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 48:34

I take care of him. I mean, I must be doing something, right? Because he hasn't kicked my ass to the curb yet.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

So well, I can look at it two ways. You could be the only game in town, so keep that in moment.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Correct. Yeah, we'll live we'll leave that just to set as you said it. That's unfortunate though, right? Like I mean, it'd be nice to pass on operations and the way we do things to neighboring uh agencies, but that's been a a tough ear, a tough ear to to grab a hold of, right? And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

If they're not aggressive and they don't understand.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we've we've had neighboring agencies come up with a structure fire, and that is second due truck, third-do trucks out there in the street with the aerial in the cradle. I mean, that's frustrating, right? Like it's it's unfortunate. But we try, we try, we try to uh pass along the information, but it's only uh received as well as it's allowed, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:42

So I think much like what Randy said, it's and it's an affliction in the fire services. We can't shy away from uncomfortable conversations, especially with other agencies, and that's on scene is the time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yes, 100% aerial aerial ladders in the cradle and not getting an opportunity to, even if it's a nothing deal, to get that rep and you know, not taking advantage of trying to get a spot. Our truck companies go on unfortunately way too many medical calls. Every time the fire truck leaves the barn, that's an opportunity to throw your aerial or at least consider it, or you know, walk a building, you know, consider outside truck work access, you know, what can ladders reach and all those things. And uh, with our in our agency, we've really been pushing that and and getting guys to do that kind of work. And then if they're not gonna do it, me jam them up. I passed the time in my career, maybe in my life, where I really cared about being liked and I'd rather care about being respected in my rank. And after you get after people enough times, they either see it coming and they're gonna do it, which is a win, or they're gonna do it because they see you on the assignment, or they know that there's an expectation. And I think that that the idea of of becoming complacent in the fire service and not having individuals that want to step up in in leadership roles and because they they want to be liked by everybody is is out. We're not doing anybody any favors, certainly not doing the public favors. Where you know, we've had incidents where we had an overtime guy that came from another side of the city and our trucks a little bit different on the outrigger operation. Couldn't you get the outriggers up? It's on video, it's it's on, it's on video, guys. Please don't look it up. It's on video at an incident with smoke coming from the roof. We need to have those conversations and be like, that is not acceptable. What are we gonna do to fix it? And then step in the gap and be the example on throwing your aerial ladder every time. I don't want to go in and be involved in any medical aid when I'm on the truck ever. What I'm gonna do is when they come out, I'm probably gonna have the aerial ladder thrown. Hey guys, we're done with this. The rescue took the person to the hospital. Hey, grab a brush jacket and a helmet. Let's go, let's go walk this roof. Let's go get in, get into good habits and showing good habits as an engineer and as a leader on an incident of the aerial's up. And guess what? Every time I throw the ladder, I climb it. Whether I get off onto the roof is something different. But once once people see, once people, once, once it members see you doing that, then that's something that becomes contagious and hopefully starts to set an expectation. It's like that's the type of engineer that I want to be. And and it's because I've seen this. And then when we get to an incident, you've already maybe thrown to that building because you've been there a million times on medical aids, and you know where the spot is, and you know you can take an outside spot, and you know that if there we have a um a metro line that that runs down Long Beach Boulevard and a couple other streets, I know that I'm limited on my outriggers, that I can't put my outrigger out over the train tracks. So I know that because I've been to that sinking building so many times on bone runs, that I know exactly where I need to position my apparatus, and then that becomes contagious and and makes it easier when we do have maybe that somebody out of house and they see us get off and and run the play, then that's just a one more rep before the you know the four bell of the structure fire goes out.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

Jimmy, may I add you think I I I'm speak, I I know it exists, or at least it used to exist in my agency, but in my neck of the woods. But do you think part of that is just the a subset culture, or maybe there was a culture of you know, we're not gonna throw the aerial on. It's not an actual fire, we don't want to disturb the building, blah, blah, blah, all these things. Because we had to break through that mindset, and guys started seeing that damn, you know, 61 is throwing the aerial on everything they go to, every MS call, every volume. And we uh Cam, Mark, and I talked about um apparently there's a there's a desire, and we talked about doing a show just on how to how to train people to train their people. Like what what what does drilling look like? What should it look like? We're not going to a parking lot that's never gonna burn. We're gonna go to a structure in our district that could burn and we're gonna pull line and we're gonna throw at ladders. Do you think that that existed or still does within your agency that you were actually, you know, one of those people maybe breaking the going against the norm and actually getting that aerial up?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

You know, I'd I'd hate, I'd you'd have to ask our members. I I just can tell you from my experience, because I'm not gonna say you know. I was the one that really started to do this or that because our agency is over a hundred years old. But the progress that we've made in our engineer rank has been because people, not just me, have realized a void and realized you know what, we don't want to do what we've been doing in this rank, and I think it becomes contagious. But to answer your question specifically, I feel like in the past, those were not things that you would normally see. Mindset you're talking about mindset, mindset, mindset. And so if if if if you see someone continually doing that, and let's say you get two truck companies on a on a on a reported building alarm or something, automatic alarm, and and they see truck seven coming down the street, they know that the engineers on truck seven, more often than not, are gonna throw the ladder. And if even if it wasn't in their mind to throw the ladder, maybe they do it just because they don't want to have it in the bed. But either way, to me, that's totally fine. I either way, the the the expectation or the mission has been accomplished in take those opportunities to not operate the way that we had been operating in the past as a fire department and and as truck engineers and become more truck-minded in getting a rep when you have the ability to do it with the license siren on, with you know, a little bit, you know, the the pulse rates up a little bit. And then if it turns out to be nothing, you guys have talked about it, then it's nothing, and we got and we got a good play. You know, we got a we got a good rep. Um, as far as we had a policy, um, you know, chief's putting out policies, we got to make contact with building owners, you know, before we get up on their buildings. If it's an automatic alarm, it's a building alarm or something, like we have carte blanche, we're there. 911 got called, we we do what we need to do. Being also being good neighbors and explaining to folks and being able to foster relationships with people that will come outside, see you on a ring camera. Maybe it's an emergency incident, see you on a ring camera, and they're like, hey, hey, come outside, what are you doing? Right? That's great. Captain can handle that. But I've taken those opportunities to develop relationships with individuals that own buildings, multiple buildings throughout the entire city. And now we have a rapport, a telephone number we can call, like, hey, do you mind if we go up on your roof on your on your pre-33 arch trust roof? We promise that we're not gonna sound, we're not gonna damage your your building. Or hey, I have this other building over here that we're about ready to uh you know tear down or refurb or something, and then we can then we can go that direction. And we've had building owners that have reached out to us, and we have a really great member on our department that's working to try and uh secure those buildings for us to drill on. So just by us being out and running a play and pulling some hose and throwing a ladder, it it raises some awareness where now we have contacts with people that are either occupying the building and it gives us an opportunity to educate. Oh well. And it's it shows that we're engaged in our job and that when people call 911, we're gonna show up and we're gonna do our job. And and with that, we've gotten more training opportunities, and it's become, in my opinion, more contagious to get out and and and do your job.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

That's what I was thinking about, James, when you just said that it is contagious because when we pull up and we roll out our program and we get on the roof of a of a nothing uh scenario, um, it's contagious. When other crew members see, wow, 61 just rolled in and rolled out their entire their entire uh SOG on this thing. This is what I want. So when it is go time, they know what they're gonna get with 61. They know what they're gonna get with sevens. Whatever wherever you work, that's exactly what they're gonna get. And you got to have that mindset.

SPEAKER_03 58:23

And it's kind of awesome because the firemen in the backseat of that other rig, they want to do good work. Yep. So now they're in that cabin's here. Cap, why don't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we doing that? So we're making it hard on other company officers, which I love.

SPEAKER_05 58:37

But I love it. Yep. Or you end up with a few other companies coming up there with you, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Hey, do you mind? Do you have a rookie? We want to show the rookie what we're thinking on this. Peer pressure, bro. Yeah, exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

Yep. Um, you got you guys have all kind of touched on it a little bit uh here and there, but what do you guys how do you guys view your role as the engineer on the crew? And what what responsibility do you feel you have uh in building that reputation of that company? How much of that falls on you?

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Everything. Um man, I I can't stress this enough. Um I, for example, we're on a mobile home fire, I'm on the truck, my my crew's been searched, you know, assigned search. I'm immediately going and I'm thinking support, support, support. How can I support and better this incident for everybody inside this box? And it's gonna be ripping off uh skirting off the bottom, it's gonna be window cut downs, it's gonna be I'm gonna be suited up and I'll tell you what, I'm gonna be on my stomach looking to see if there's trap fire underneath that mobile home. Everything that has to do with every incident is support on that truck. Everything. And you better believe it as an engineer. If you want your company to be known, you suit up and you go to work, you already know what's expected. And most of our chiefs that are on scene, they already know what they're gonna get. They already know what they're gonna get with our crew. And and you better believe we're gonna be on the outside and we're gonna be aggressive in all of our operations, and that falls on pulling up to a single story, single family engine companies inside, gives a report, light smoke, smell a burning roof-mounted uh AC unit. Where do you where do you think we're gonna go on the truck? Do we need to sit there and wait for an assignment? Hey, Cap, I'm gonna go jump out, I'm gonna throw a ladder on that Charlie side, I'm gonna get tools ready to go. And what happens next, two minutes later, it when I'm walking my way back to get pick up a cut the last couple of tools, and my crew's still sitting in that truck. Hey, 61, get to the roof, and we're already set up for it. That reputation to just go, I'm outside of the IEDLH, I'm doing my thing, and you better believe we're gonna set up because we you you already hear the reports, all the experience you have, all the training you have, put it together. Where are we going? And guess what? If we don't need to go to the roof, I just got a 24 throw and I got pulled uh tools off the rigs, and then I got my fireman saying, Man, I love this. This is great. We should be doing this. We owe it to everybody. We owe it to the interior crews and our own crew to be ready to go and and do the things that we already know need to be done.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Go ahead, Jamie. I've been yakking a bunch.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:39

Oh, you're you're good. I think uh the impression that engineer has on those guys. I remember being you know, my first day uh walking into the station. Those those guys are they're lost, right? They got big eyes, they're trying to figure it out. They've got a list a mile long of things they're trying to do. Um for me, I was always watching that engineer, and I wasn't watching the captain, right? But he's doing his own thing, he's doing stuff in the office, he's dealing with personnel problems. That that engineer out there after dinner, constantly checking the rig. Um, I think his opportunity to I I guess what I'm saying, the the crew holds the expectation, right? The captain sets it. But I think that engineer, it's it's his job to maintain it, especially with those new guys, right? Um whether that's taking the the time after dinner to help him don his PBE, uh, doff his PPE, understand that uh first stage regulator, second stage regulator on that SCBA, how to throw that ladder. That in those guys are looking at that engineer 100%, every day, day in and day out, right? And I always tell the guys that are trying to promote to engineer, I dude, it's up to you, right? You're setting that example. You're gonna be that engineer that you want to be. Are you gonna be that engineer that comes in at 7:30, pencil whips the rig check, and then rides a recliner? Or are you gonna be that guy out in the bay, right? I tell I tell my guys, Cap's office is his that bay, that tool room, that is the engineers. He better be inside checking that rig. Those guys, that that's that's a perfect opportunity to get to know those young guys, right? To mentor them, to take them underneath your wing, show them right and wrong, right? Um, and then when it comes to what as far as calls, it's go time, right? Whether that be a medical run, and we're I'm going off of what uh Randy and James said. We do the same thing, uh, fire alarms. That aerial, I'm throwing it. It's going to the roof. I'm taking those new guys up there, right? We're gonna walk through a roof up, we're gonna do it every single time, right? Second dude truck. We I'm not pulling the parking brake, I'm throwing my aerial to the roof. I'm taking them up there. We're gonna get on it, we're gonna walk through a rep, and then we're gonna go inside of it. We're gonna look up, we're gonna understand that, understand that building construction and how it's gonna react when there's fire underneath it, right? So I guess the biggest emphasis and what I'm trying to say is those guys are watching you, and you better be an example to them. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

I think I think for me, just to reiterate what was said is um is we talk about running the play, we talk about suiting up, we talk about doing all the things that we want to see done, but if we don't set that example, um then we're really hypocritical. And once that once you start to see someone that's you know, I always I have a lot to say about a lot of things a lot of the time. Um, but I also would like to think that I try to be an example and try to back up some of those things so it's not, you know, I'm not always crying wolf, right? Um, you know, we talked a lot about truck company stuff, the engine company stuff. Like, hey, you know, are we are we spotting hydrants and just just taking it just to take it while they're in, you know, tending to to somebody's uh you know, tummy ache. And they come out and they see me, you know, loading up a side suction. Like, what's he doing? I just want to get sharp. I just I just I just want to get a rep, a rep for me. Nobody else had to do anything. This was a rep for me, you know. No announcements. Hey, I'm going out to tilt the cab. You know, everybody come outside and help. Work is contagious when that happens and they see those things happening. Work is contagious. Next thing you know, everybody's in, and maybe we're happy, you know, we're talking about um what's underneath the hood or the engine or the truck. Um, when we get to incidents and they don't see you run the play and making a connection to um the sprinkler hookup, right? That's kind of the same thing as throwing the ladder. You know, am I thinking about making that FDC connection? One, because it's the policy with a ringing fire alarm, we're gonna do X, Y, and Z, we're gonna make a connection. And leave it dry, but like, do you know where those connections are? Do you know you know what's gonna reach? And when you show up to an incident after you've done those things and you've ran those plays, and your members they have the utmost confidence that you've put your truck in the right position to be able to reach the area or to reach the roof or to reach the balcony that you're looking for, and and you you're you're positioned where you don't have to reposition to to take a hydrant and and to and and you know where the pump ins are. So that's just one checkbox. So everybody's like, when he gets on the rig, this guy is gonna set us up for success from getting on the rig quickly to getting to the incident safely, and then knowing that he's gonna do his job. But we talk a lot about being somebody that if you stay in your lane and you do your job, you do your assignment, everything else most likely is gonna fall into place. But if you start to, you know, you got guys jumping off the rigs and doing all sorts of goofy stuff, or they see the engineer super fired up, freaking out, forgetting his helmet, propping his radio, that kind of sends like a tempo for the incident. Like, we're supposed to be to to your to your question, Cam, is like we're supposed to be somebody that that sets the tempo and that is the example, in my opinion, to where everyone's like, All right, cool, right? We're not flipping through the map book and you know, we're not making wrong turns. I've been I've made wrong turns before, you know, we're not freaking out and and and driving opposing traffic like a wild man, like that amps everybody else up in the rig. The captain's like, Does this guy know what he's doing? The guys in the backseat are like, holy shit, we're hanging on, we think we're gonna fall out of a rig. And then so by the time you even show up to the incident, everybody's already like super flustered, and then what's gonna happen after that? Usually things kind of unravel. So I think it is incumbent on us as engineers to be um, you know, kind of the the baseline and be the be the the initial um leader in the firehouse and on the fire ground so that everything starts to go right after that. And maybe that's a little presumptuous, but that that's a that's a goal, I think, at least.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

You know, I'd like to address something really quick. Uh going off that, every what everybody says great. Um, one thing that I experienced, um, I'm very aggressive with my ground ladders. I'll empty every single pumper of ground ladders, my truck, everything. Everything's getting thrown. Possibilities. I've actually had crews that have stepped back and mocked me because of it. What are you doing? Why are you throwing all these ladders? If I throw a thousand ladders in my entire career and it's needed one time at that balcony at the bottom of that window, whatever that situation is, then 10,000 ladders was worth throwing in my entire career to make sure that that one is set where it needs to be. So it I'd like to think that that is changing because that was probably about eight years ago. And now the people that have mocked me because of it now are like, hey, Randy, you'd be surprised, you you'd be proud of me. I threw three ladders on that thing, man. I see what you're saying now, and it's been eight years later. So there's a definitely a mindset on the negative side of things that people are just sitting there watching you run circles and have all this going on, and you're throwing all these ladders for what? It's we gotta educate, we gotta, we gotta be there to teach and mentor these people and why we're doing it, and that'll help with people's mindsets is knowing the why.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:36

So is there anything you guys would hey, because you got some young firemen that uh are gonna be going into that position soon as an engineer or driver operator, um, that you'd say, Hey, you want to do A, B, and C. That's this is gonna set you up to be a good operator. What would those things be other? I mean, you guys have touched about a few things, but what would you really want to pass on to these guys of hey, this is gonna set you up for success? Do these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

I think just setting the example, you know, from if if you're you know, I'm really concerned about operations. I'm I'm not a uh I try to I try to get a workout in before I get to the firehouse. Well, when guys show up to the firehouse and their first thing after they have an hour and a half cup of coffee is to go straight to the gym. Junk. And you fall out of the fire anyways, and I'm old and blown out, and I don't fall out of fires. You know what I mean? So it's like so so I it's like I think if you're gonna if you're gonna give guys something is is just you know set set the example and do what you know is is right, right? Um listen to your crew and kind of watch to see what's going on. Maybe a guy that's you know that maybe he's having some issues at home or you know, he's he's on the last day of a 72 or whatever, kind of be in touch with your guys and get the feel. Maybe you had a plan to go out and and recommend to the cabin you were gonna go dump to bed and we're gonna do this and that, you know, kind of not to get soft or anything, Mark. I can see Mark's upset here. Uh, you know, like not not, you know, but take take your crew into account and kind of listen and see, you know, where they are on on that day, and then just just be uh be somebody that's consistent. I think I think that that that there's something to be said for consistency, and and I'm not just saying consistency and doing the right thing and and rounding the play, but like like try and be as consistent as you can to where people know what they're gonna get, right? We all work with those people that are kind of you know, like, oh, what am I gonna get today when I come in? If you want to be a leader, I think in in the engineer rank, I think that there is a level of consistency and you know uh what you're gonna get pretty much every day that you come to work. And if you factor those couple of three things just off the top of my head, um I think that that will at least set individuals that are thinking about being engineers maybe in in that right direction.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:07

Thank you now, ready, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Yeah, for me, um, one big thing that I and it could be because of my background, whenever there's a chance for you to learn about the mechanical aspect of your rig, when those when those service techs mechanics come to your station to swap out window regulators, I don't care the extent, blown hoses, whatever it is, ask those questions. Learn about your rig. Hey, in this situation, I just recently on we had a reserve engine at our station and the the starter stuck, and it's sitting there driving down the road, just sitting there riding that flywheel, and I get out and I immediately hear it, and I'm like, let's shut this thing down. Well, what this doesn't this is not right to understand as much as you can and ask the mechanics questions. Hey, if this happens, if you blow a hose for the intercooler for turbo hose, okay, can this be lent back to the station, become an asset to your crew being stranded out or learn enough to make sure that you know when to shut that rig down and preserve our apparatus? Because we all know we're all standing in line for apparatus right now, years at a time. So we got to take care of what we have. You can't just say, Oh, I didn't know and it blew up. Well, unfortunately, just recently, an engineer, the same thing happened on the rig. We had it towed to the station. Mechanic um thought he had addressed everything. Not two days later, it happened again, and that engineer just kept driving it. And what happened? There was an actually a fire under the hood because he was like, Oh, I it's whatever. And we can't have that mentality. If we hear something, call somebody, phone a friend, call the mechanic. Hey, it's making this sound. Okay, stop. If anything, let's just get it towed or whatever the situation is. I think spending time with the mechanics is very valuable for a new engineer. Yep. Second thing is care about everything. How we take care of the house, the barn, the apparatus. Everybody's like, Randy, why are you out there polishing the wheels and and and and waxing the paint? Well, because as I'm taking the wax off, every single nut, bolt, and everything gets touched on that rig. There's reasons why we, you know, that that's where I get into the detail of the rig is when I when I spend time with it. And all I do is sit out there and run through scenarios in my head all day. And uh, what can I do better? Hey, I could have done this better on this call. Hey, what if this pops up? Hey, this would be a good training scenario for my crew. So, spending time out in that barn, knowing what's going on in that barn, what's going on the equipment. I could tell you I get uh supply orders all the time from our station, and I'm like, why are we ordering it? There's an entire box in the upper cabinet in the hall closet. I get there and I'm like, why did we order that? Oh, because I didn't know where anything was. Well, there's a whole box here. So I feel like caring about everything when it starts the day from barge, station, rigs, checkout, and fix the problems. Don't let it just move on to the next crew. It is your responsibility to fix, to write up, hey, this tire is not looking good. Go out of service. I don't care if it's 10 o'clock at night. We got to get it fixed. Don't let you buy the tire.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

Are you buying the tire?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Are you fixing the hope? Exactly. Exactly. Guys act like it's their money. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it it drives me crazy that it's so easy to just pass the buck off to the next crew, and that is 100% unacceptable. How do you know what's going on with the crew or with the rigs and the barn if you don't spend any time out there? I go out there all the time and make sure things are put away, tidy, make sure we have the stuff because we do our own aerial service at our station. Um, we've been doing it for the past eight years. Uh, mechanics trust us to do our own, and I love it because we go over and beyond to take care of our rigs. Um, and the next thing is personal growth. You've got to push yourself. You you've got to be better than the firemen at their positions and better than the standard engineer on the department. Um, in in way of your skills, your skill set, your mindset, and all that starts in the morning when you enter that station and you walk through and you you get a feel of what the next the the shift before how their shift was. So those are my things that I would share with them for sure. And know your rig. I could tell you when I'm driving through, I'm splitting cars going down the street, and I'm just bringing that rear end in. I could tell you just by the way I feel, I'm like, oh, that was close. No, that rig has to become a piece of you. And you know, when you get on that pedestal, if if the seat three didn't do his uh outrigger right, hey, come up a little bit more. It's not right. Get up, you know, pop me up a little bit more. You know the rig. You got it, you gotta feel the rig and know uh and know its limitations, know what it can do well, and when something goes bad, can you can you get it out of uh the way of fire? And can you get your crew off the building if something if you have a catastrophic failure? So um interesting enough, I was on an incident one day, 4th of July, horror, you know, 4th of July is I'm sure everywhere. We're busy, and uh I'm sitting there, flying my aerial to a two-story multi-family. All of a sudden, all the lights just turn off. All the lights just shut down. I look and I'm thinking a catastrophic failure to my rig here. One of the engineers were told by my chief, battalion chief, to come over because where he was sitting, the lights were blinding him. And I lost my mind. I completely lost my mind. Don't you ever touch my rig. You go and turn those in on back on right now, and you go tell him that I want my lights on and they will be on. And so, you know, um, it's just interesting. We got to know our rig, and the only way to do it is to is to care. We have to care. If we don't care, we're gonna have a rough time, and you're gonna hear from me.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:28

So, yeah. Anything to add, Riggs?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:33

Yeah, I mean, I think I think uh James and and Randy hit 95% of it. Um, we all have been getting them morning pass off from the guys, hey Rig's good, rig's good, right? I guarantee them to you that rig ain't good. There is always something on that rig that needs attention, a piece of equipment that needs to be looked at or maintained. It's never good, right? There's always something to be improved on. Uh you guys talked about making friends with mechanics at your shops, right? Huge, huge. If you guys want anything done on your rigs in a timely manner, you got to create those relationships. And the things that you can take care of that, I mean, uh you guys mentioned you guys service your own ladders. We do we we we service ours too as well. Uh we don't do the annual testing on them, but uh knowing the intervals, right? The semi-annuals, what needs to be done as on done on that rig on a semi-annual, on the quarterly, when that steering on that trailer needs to be greased, when that fifth wheel needs to be greased, maintaining that and and logging it and passing it on. Because we know it, the buck gets passed very easily, right? You have to take it upon yourself to make sure that stuff gets done. Um, I mean, those rigs cost two million dollars now, right? You got to maintain it. You want 20 years of service life out of that rig, it has to be maintained. You have to tilt that cap, you have to get in the motor, you have to show these guys, pass on the knowledge uh how to maintain that uh that motor and check those hoses and check those belts and get underneath that rig and check the pump, the packing, all that stuff, right? It the job never ends. There's always something that has to be done on that truck or engine.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:23

I got something I want to add.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:25

I think sorry, Sean. It's it's up to it's up to that individual, right? It you gotta dig deep at six o'clock. For me, if I know there's something done, and Cam can attest to this attest to this, if there's something that has to be done on that truck, I'm I'm out there in that bay on that truck until it's done. Right? That stuff is contagious. Those younger guys are out there, they're asking questions, right? I think you're just owning the position. You guys talked about wearing your badge. Well, engineer, they have their badge, it says engineer or AO on that right, wear it, do it. Don't ride to the damn recliner, it ain't doing anybody any good.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:14

You asked a question, Cam, you opened up with uh for that young guy wanting to promote to engineer. Sometimes we have to have the opposite conversation. How about you do time and rank? You ain't ready. That's that's that's that's an affliction going on right now. We don't know what we don't know, ain't nobody telling us that we don't know because we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, right? And the conversation has to be had, you're not ready because right now what we have overwhelmingly in the American Fire Service is a bunch of people at elevated rank that only possess entry-level skill set from the previous rank. And if you only possess entry-level skill set, how the hell are you gonna know what that fireman needs as a driver? How are you gonna know what that driver or fireman need as a captain if you only ever spent the minimum time and you wanted to climb that ladder? There's no way you got to have that hard conversation the other way. You tell them to sit your ass down, you're not ready. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:17

I think those things are uh obviously noticed by the captain and super appreciated, right? When the when the engineer is just taking care of stuff on his own. But when you have a bump in guy or something that's doing it and it's completely the opposite, it's so noticeable that he's not pulling his way, he's not doing his job. And they think they think it's hidden, right? I guess, I guess they do, but it's totally not, it's totally apparent. Um, any other questions, Mark? Colin, you guys got?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

I've got a question for the captains since we have two of them with us.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:51

Colin Colin's got this.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

What do you do when you have a bid in crew and you've got people, you've got one or two of the guys that are all in, every they know everything that they possibly can about what's going on with their rigs, the entire spectrum. And then you've got that one person that is allowed to just kind of not be that same way, if I if you will. So if they're if they don't have the same motivation, how what what what is your responsibility as a captain? Yeah. Speaking, I mean, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

I think we know the answer to it. I mean, this goes back to the question of company officers supporting their people at every rank, right? If you're doing the right thing, you're at my support. And I would never, never, ever stifle or intervene because it's making somebody else comfortable that Randy's doing this or that or the third, whatever. I would never because it's only good. In fact, the question is, why don't you get out there with them? So again, it goes back to hard conversations that we shy away from because we care more about the relationship than the mission. And if that's going on, then the company officer ain't doing his job. Yep. Because, like somebody said, you guys should be that locker room leader, but the buck does stop on me. And I got a standard to maintain, and I will do that. I will not sacrifice that. I don't give a shit about your feelings at the end of the day. We're paid a damn good wage to show up and execute for those people out there. And if somebody ain't pulling their way at any rank, uh it will be addressed. And if it's not being addressed, then that company officer is doing you a disservice. That's my opinion. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:40

As I'm getting older and closer to retirement, I've got five left, obviously. So I've got a good amount of time left. And Mark, you probably can agree with this. When you look back on your career, and when I look back on my career and I see Vegas in my review mirror for the last time, I want to look back and have zero regrets that I did everything possible, whether it was my own motivation, my own knowledge, and my own training, that I provided the absolute best service that we could have provided my entire career and leave with a full heart and a successful career. That's my goal. And if I find and if I have relationships and I build relationships on the way, that's that's a bonus for me. But at the end of the day, that's why I'm doing this, is so we can provide and pull that lady out of that mobile home and whatever else we've been able to do in our career, whatever, whatever it's been, and be able to say, you know what, I did it, I did it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:36

So and you'll you'll look back, I think. Go ahead, Colin.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:41

No, I said, Cam, would you would you agree with that response? Are you just gonna tell me I'm an asshole again?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:47

Okay. Uh no, absolutely. I think there's a there's a minimum standard, right? Because there's there's guys are at varying levels. There just is, dude. I mean, you get you got guys that are in different life circumstances at different time span. There's guys that are going through divorces, there's guys, I mean, there's outside things that you have to take into factor, right? Um, at certain times where guys aren't gonna be as all in as other times in their life. And if you're not cognizant of that, dude, you're just kind of the asshole, right? Um, but there is the minimum, there is a minimum that has to be maintained. And I'll tell you what, dude, um, I have no problem playing favorites either. Um, if the guys are if the if I got guys that are willing to put out and uh are willing to put others, the the the company before them, absolutely I'm gonna have your back and I'm gonna do anything I can to support you. And if you're not, you're really not gonna get that much support from me. I'm sorry, you're just not, you're not. Um, that's just how it is. And so um they they sometimes they think though, you know, they'll they'll ask for it. You're not gonna get it, man. You're not gonna get it because I know you're not giving it back. Um, so I'm not gonna invest that much in you, but yeah, I would say at that minimum level, there's gotta be some some standards that are held there.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:04

Yeah, well, we appreciate the captain's support, and I know that means a lot to all of us, so it's important.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:11

Can I touch on something just real quick with exactly what you just said? I think it's also I'd taken a couple of notes to make sure that I wanted to incorporate some things. I think it's also important, at least in my agency, where we I don't want to say we've had uh an issue with, but um kind of respecting the rank, right? You talk about respecting the person and not the rank. I think if you do have aspirations to want to be seen um as a leader, and then you you act on those things to try to accomplish that, and then you also want to maybe take the next step. We talked about staying in the rank. How does it look to you, or how do you look if you're bucking the captain all the time, or you're not you want him to support you, and I'm blessed with the with the captains that I have worked for. And work for currently, but uh what does it look like when you're not giving the captain the respect? Individuals will come to me, hey, what do you think about doing this and this and this today? Or I need to do this, right? Locker room leader, apparatus floor leader. A lot of times my answer is what did the boss want to do? And I think that where you're missing the mark is like you can be the strong, you know, alpha male senior leader where guys look to you for answers. I think that there's something to be said, and I know that um I know that that Mark and Greg had a great long relationship, um, you know, as a two and an AO, where they didn't have to discuss much, but I think there's something to be said too that you need to respect the company officer because he is the company officer, and when you undermine him or routinely undermine him, that also makes you look like a sausage to everybody else. And then when you're gonna when you think about promoting, what do you want? You want to you want and respect, but maybe as as that informal leader, as a driver, ao engineer, you you didn't pass that same level of respect to that captain's rank. So I think that that's a delicate balance, too. It's not my firehouse, it belongs to the company officer that's in charge of it. And so I think if there's that mutual respect and a give and take, we can't trash our company officers, even if they weren't, even if they're not really great, or even if maybe they weren't drivers and then maybe doing some goofy stuff. Now we can kind of direct too. Maybe we're almost giving some mentorship to some of the company officers and letting him see it from an engineer's lens, especially if he hadn't been a driver. So I think I think that we're trying to, I'm trying to get better and and kind of reiterate that is that the firemen do not run the shift, certainly. Sorry, yeah, 100% the engineer doesn't run the firehouse these either. It ultimately the buck sauce with the captain. I think as as a as a as a man and as as a as a good leader, that you also need to understand and respect that and make sure that the other guys know that it's not the you know engineer fill-in-the-blank show. This does belong to the company officer, and that symbiotic relationship is something that would only approve, and you'll actually get more responsibility if your supervisor, your captain, or lieutenant realizes that you are reciprocating that respect, you know, just as men and then and then as professional firefighters.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:26

Good point. Very good point. Anybody have anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

I I I I I'd like to throw in a uh a wrench on Jimmy's uh last last statement, and that is I I understand uh at least I did where are the ultimate buck stops? The captain is where shit flies to you, right? If things don't go right, fired round, uh you guys are horsing around, whatever that is. However, I think the flip side of that, just in my dealings, what that is, um I ran into a lot of officers that didn't want to wear their badge. They didn't. And somebody has to drive that force of what's happening in that firehouse and or on the fire ground. And let's let's not be stupid about it. The majority of our calls are EMS, but somebody has to take the bull by the horns and actually lead when you don't have a natural leader in those positions. And I don't care if it's a fireman, because I was at fireman and uh or an apparatus or an engineer, any one of those ranks can lead those people and still show the respect. I worked for some beauties in my career, and never once did we make those guys look bad ever, right? And it wasn't reciprocated back down to us because of their lack of interest in what was going on in a very busy place, right? Yeah, they're just gonna do the right thing, right? That's the kind of the fallback that I got, or or at least that was the the uh perception that I was receiving from these guys, them not understanding going to work and what these guys are doing to make you look like you have trained them and have a cohesive company. So I would say, you know, I I disagree with the statement. I will always respect that rank, maybe not the person. And and you have to adjust accordingly to make sure that those guys, if they're coming to you as that leader, understand, no, we are not gonna fuck with that guy. No, we're not gonna make him look like an active. We can do that. We can make a guy shine, man, we can do that, right? So we have to understand that if somebody's not taking up their end of it and being that leader, somebody needs to step into that position. And I don't care whatever that link is, give that guy the courtesy of that understanding. What Jimmy says, I get the no respect part of it, but uh I still think that that there are plenty of people in the fire service that demand respect and they don't earn respect. And and that's that's a street that nobody wants to visit. You'll get those guys. I had them that's like, fuck what when they talk about how to fuck a wallflower, right? It's like, you're at this place. Why did you come here? You knew what you were getting into, right? And then you're completely hands off. Okay, you know, I had a guy tell me that as a very young fireman at a very busy assignment. And he goes, Hey, if nobody wants to be in charge, you be in charge. It was a well-respected captain. And he goes, You don't have to step on people's feet, you have to lead the team. That's what you need to do. And that's what I guess kind of locked in my head. It's like, you know, luckily for me, at the end, 12, 13 years of the same guy that led the team. There was no question in my mind who was in charge of the team, right? But when you don't have that, you better step into the place because guess what? The incidents aren't going to change, the call load isn't going to change, the day-to-day life and firehouse are going to change. You got to drive it. Drive that wheel. Be the guy. You know, whether it's, like I said, an operator or a fireman, be the guy that leads that thing in the correct direction. Don't get at the fork of the road and choose the wrong fork.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:54

Ma'am, I got a question. I just wanted to get these guys' outlet on before we wrap this up. Yeah. You three, you guys, you guys all, I'm sure I know Randy is, but you're familiar with the term proactive engineer. It's kind of a buzzword that's been going around the fire service. Um I think we'd be remiss if we didn't, for that young driver um, who who isn't in a place with a culture of this, I would just like to hear your guys' thoughts on what that means, what your capabilities are as even on that first two engine, you know, at a certain point, what are you doing beyond you've got lines charged on the ground and you just standing there? Like, what does that term proactive engineer mean? What should these young drivers be doing beyond you know, the first lines charge or what have you? Um, what does that mean to you guys? What's that look like?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:43

Filling in, filling in where you know, like what's the what's the next thing, what's the next evolution, what's coming, you know, after maybe we get knocked down, or how can I assist with lighting so that uh we're lighting up and and doing like outside, even some outside truck work, depending on how far the companies are, to assist the search. So you're kind of just thinking a step ahead, you know, and making sure that those things are in place. The hose line still has to get established. I have water and coming to my company to my pump panel, and those guys still have to get suited up. Do I have an opportunity to help assist with opening the door or throwing a ground ladder, etc., and trying to be just a step ahead. So guys literally turn around and they have what they need. Um, you know, if you know it's an attic fire, maybe there's some inside truck work stuff. We get an inside ladder to the door, we we start to think about um, you know, uh inside pulling tools, uh, you know, visqueing uh hall runners, and just being a step ahead of everybody so that they don't have to go back to the rig. You know, we're we're gonna work super hard for the first 10 minutes of the incident to get the table set to allow the worker bees, and then hopefully become one of those worker bees for, you know, once everything is is is is checked off. You know, I think it's I think it's super important that again we said it earlier, is it the engineer is the expert fireman? And and because you've been in those in that position, you can kind of expect based on the way that you see the incident developing what the next need is going to be from from the ground. We had a real quick, we had a fire the other day. Uh, a well-involved house, a true one-story about 2800 square foot house. Well involved. Outside fire made its way inside. And I'll save the the whole story, but I was doing a bunch of other things as the third inning pumper on on that uh on that incident, and my truck company was on the roof, and a couple of my guys got burned. Um and it was because of a delay in getting a protection line to the roof. I knew better. I got focused in on this gate, and I wore I'm I'm still upset about it. I wore that for a couple of weeks because I knew what I needed to do, and I didn't get that protection line to the roof from my guys early enough, and they ended up sustaining some some minor burns. And so I think um, if you're not beating yourself up over making mistakes and you're not trying to talk about it and be open and say, hey, we I could have done this better, and being proactive to try to prevent something or seeing that the fire wasn't going out and knowing that they were gonna need that, and you and you don't own it, and then the next fire that I had, they almost had a protection line before they started cutting a hole, you know. And so you just try to, you know, certainly not perfect, make plenty of mistakes, but all of the things that I was preaching and in that on that incident, I missed that, and so I wear it, and then I tell people why it's important and guys that are trying to learn and and own the idea of we got to do the things that we know we need to do to help the whole incident, you know, evolve and and uh you know come to a come to a good conclusion. But when we don't do that, let's have that discussion too, and then make sure that it doesn't happen again. So I think being proactive is is all of those things and and is something that if you have good engineers, captains, and and and and go and and mark on incidents, and you know what you're gonna get, and you know that these things are gonna be done, and everybody stays in that lane and makes those things happen, the incident goes out much better.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:25

Keep it going. Who's next?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:30

I'll go. Uh James does an awesome job. Um, I like to think of it if I'm I'm that first in engine, right? I establish my water supply, I got a primary attack line to the door. Uh you know they're gonna need a second attack line, and you know probably they're gonna need that backup line, right? Pull it. If they're not there, they're not ready, pull it. Set them up for success. We just don't set pressures and then just sit there at the panel. There's a million things that can be done. We all know that incident goes as the first line goes 100% of the time, right? Uh take the gate on the delta side, take that gate on the on the Bravo side. Give them give them uh another means of access to put that fire out, right? They're gonna knock down what comes next. James hit it on the head overall, right? Salvage, salvage, huge before overall, right? Get that stuff to the door, support that fire ground. Other than just doing the typical engineer thing, oh I set the line on the set the pressure on the first line, I'm good to go. I don't have to do anything, though. It's not working, right? There's there's there's a million things that needs to happen happening within the first 10 minutes on that fire ground, and that engineer sets that example and and that and that pace.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:53

So and as far as uh where what where we go from initial setup, it has just begun. That is just the beginning. Um ask yourself to start establishing that mindset. What's next? What's my priority? If I've got a my roof team is up on a smaller roof, I don't necessarily need to be up there. What's my next priority? Are they taking care of? Do they have the the second and third ladders placed in case things go south? Um, now what can I do to support? Be on the radio, listening to my team up top if they need something, keeping an eye on them, but at the same time establishing other ways and finding other ways to support, because as a truck company, that's what we're there to do is support that entire scene. And whatever that looks like, um you're you're walking by and they're having a pinch point at the door, grab the hose and toss a couple of uh of uh of uh you know, grab the hose and and and feed it in for them for a minute and somebody else can take over, throw in more ladders. Um, okay, what room are they working from? Um, you know, is there anything that I need to do to open this thing up? Um, what if there's a victim in that fire room? How's that gonna look getting them out? What's the fastest way? What can I do from the outside? Um, you know, um, there's just so much to take care of. And it's exactly what you said though. We're promoting engineers at three years, and that's just the way it is. And they only know what they know. And I can tell you, after me driving and operating for nine years, more and more I see how much me driving and how my drive driving affects and can affect my crew. Um, but uh these guys that they don't know, and it's up to us to mentor and walk them through after an incident. The scene doesn't just stop, it continues through. If people need, if you need to take somebody afterwards, hey, this is what I was thinking. What are you thinking? If you if you're on a truck company and you see an engine company engineer um, you know, standing at the pump panel, hey, I noticed you step at the step, you know, we're we're hung up at the panel. Was there something that well I was just told I gotta stand here in case something goes wrong? Or hey, I need to do this because I need to stay at the pedestal because if I need to move my aerial over to get it closer to where my crew's going, well, you know, and that's an that's a mentoring opportunity. Um, but as far as you we got to suit up, we gotta, we we've got to be able to support. And if you're interested in that, we've got to get with our company officers, get with people that know, hey, you you talked about this, tell me more about this and care enough to know and understand and learn on what an incident needs ultimately. And uh it's a it's a very amazing role as an engineer. I love it because I'm I'm the free safety. I've been called the three free safety for a lot of years, and I truly am because I can I can see and I've been trained and I continue to learn. Um, there's one incident where in my inaction I I regret. Um, we had a double fatal, two kids. Um we were first in nine minutes away. Um, I won't go into detail what the day looked like leading up to that and why we were nine minutes in for that particular incident. But we get there, I'm on the truck, we pull lines off the truck, rescue mode. Uh, crew goes inside. Um next next thing was there was an ambulance rescue already there. They they flowed the hydrant, they were doing everything they could um before our arrival. And I sat back after this thing, and what that what that incident needed was a hole cut in the roof. If you're in rescue mode and you're there suited up, I could have taken the engineer or driver off of the ambulance rescue, put them on my pump panel, and me and his partner could have gone up topside and cut that hole. Um, we've got to know our operation, and if we're in rescue mode, the needs of that, and I and I just kick myself and I look back at that incident and said, that will never happen again. I will know what the incident needs are and prioritize them, and I will train myself and make sure I can identify quickly and say, hey, come get my pump panel. Me and your partner are going topside and we're gonna cut this hole because they're our crew's inside searching and it was heavy smoke conditions, heavy heat, high heat, and I could have made a difference by going, you know, to topside while my crew was inside searching for victims. So um that's what it means to me. The importance of us working outside of our normal duties, whether we're on a pumper or truck, set up that that aerial or set up that ladder. Our job has just begun in supporting everything that's going on inside and outside of that uh incident.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:01

So what I heard was you're not anchored, chained to the rig. Nope. You anticipate, you have to forecast needs, be able to forecast needs, and then fill those needs. Okay. And if you didn't spend enough time in rank, then you're not going to be able to forecast those needs. That's kind of my takeaway. Correct. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:23

That hits the nail on the head. I mean, I can't tell you how valuable your guys' roles are when you're not a reactive individual on the fire ground. Like you can only deal with so many of those when you got Brand, we the fire service so young, I can only deal with so many of my guys having to be reactive on the fire ground. And the engineer is not one of those guys that I can have reacting to what's happening around him. He's got to be that guy that's yeah, I am forecasting, thinking one, two steps ahead. This is what it's gonna do, and this is what it needs. And if something's going wrong, I could tell you it's either gonna be A, B, or C, and I can figure that out for you pretty quick here. Uh, just an invaluable resource on scene to have guys in rank like you guys are um doing that. Huge help. Yep. Any other closing thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:11

I'm grateful for my mentors. I have two mentors on with us today, and I I can't tell you enough. I I uh I've been very, very humbled, and um, we've got to be teachable no matter how many years in rank we have. We've always got to be sponges and and and and continue to learn and push ourselves. But my foundation has come from Colin and uh Mark, and I appreciate you guys for the time you put into me. And that was the start of the traject, the true trajectory of my of my uh my uh my career and mentorship has to continue. It has to, and it's up to us to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:50

So I think when you go to incidents and you look at however the incident went, and you're kind of doing like a wrap-up and look look around the circle. And hopefully you guys are talking about fires after they've happened, um, and and before they happen. Um, but you look around and you realize, at least I'm realizing that you know, I've got maybe you know a few years left, but when things maybe go great and you can look around, you can go, hey, we got a bunch of young guys. We got guys, you know, we have new captains, maybe new drivers, we've got guys that maybe three, four years in the job, and it went well. Let's celebrate that. Also looking around when things don't go so well, and I know I gotta kind of to choke myself back. And I did it uh at a uh a um a two-story craft stuff fire we had that didn't go really well, and I had just lungs full. I told the chief, I go, Hey, I'm gonna gather everybody up here, and I was ready to like just rip everybody's ass. There was no inside truck work that was done. I was in there by myself with some plastic while guys were loading a hose, and I was I was really pissed, and then I kind of took a deep breath and I walked out there and I'm about ready to like let everybody have it, and I look around and the fire service is young, yeah. The senior and or senior firefighter there had three and a half years of the job, yeah. You know, a couple of more senior engineers, but like I I think that in in in for me, wrapping it up for me is is is really realizing that that we in the way that I was brought up in the fire service, like we have an expectation that we're gonna have to kind of morph and change. And I think there's still a few people that are clinging on and really want to learn and really want to get into the weeds the same way that I think everybody on this podcast does. And we take our job seriously and we want to be professionals, but we do have a whole group of new people that maybe don't share the same passion. But how can we get to them and have and and really impress upon them how important um this job really is? And it's just my engagement. I certainly don't have all the answers, but it's something I think about every day I go to work. I look and sometimes I don't even know these guys' names. And I'm like, okay, this might be the the impactful moment or day that I can be someone that shows them the way that I was shown, and whether they latch onto it, and you really hope that they do, um, it is something that you can't really control, but be consistent and try to show our newer members, hey, this is how I was taught, this is the way I'm teaching you, and you kind of just hope that they latch onto that stuff and really want to take this job as serious as we all take it, because it is truly um uh a profession of nobody else is coming, it's us, and if we don't fix the situation, there's nobody to look to. So forget the boats and the big trucks and all of that other horse shit, stickers, you know, and telling everybody you're a fireman at the bar. That's out. Show up to work, let's be professional, let's try to get better every day and try to. If you can make an impact on just a few guys, and we have guys here on the pile. I mean, Mark, Mark, um, uh, you know, taught me some things. I didn't work with him a bunch. And I know, I know that the Colin and Randy, you guys have a relationship. Maybe everybody does, but that was 20 years ago, you know, still thinking about the things that those era of guys, the Greg Shirley's and the Craig. Paulson's and the Greg Millets and Dod Carters and all these all these guys. And you're like, I still find myself saying things that that they taught me that I'm trying to pass on. And that's really kind of you know how it should be. So um I'll leave it at that, man. I'm grateful to to have been here and got to talk with you guys. And and uh, you know, I'm looking forward to trying to hold on as long as I can without um you know pulling my hair out and really trying to keep this profession uh and being a professional on every incident alive and and keep it going. So that's that's my goal at least.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:39

Awesome, awesome. Briggs, any closing thoughts, man?

SPEAKER_04 1:50:42

No, I s all I've got is uh recently, I mean, within the last 10, the five, 10 years, there's been a lot of training videos, what have you, Facebook, Instagram, uh, of maybe not the best practices as far as fire grail, and guys chasing that for likes on Instagram and popularity. And all I all I really have to say is vet vet your training. Dig deep on what what you're what you're looking into and what's right versus what's wrong. There's a lot of misconception, mis uh informing information out there. Uh the West Coast offense, uh Mark, uh Colin, and Cam, you guys do a great job. Um keep it up. And I we owe it to it as engineers, I think, to to pass it on, right? Um take your Rolodex of years of experience, things that you have learned, things that may have not gone so well, pass that on to those guys, especially those young firemen. Because I I mean, the information that I have now, if I'd be so much more further ahead in my career if I had that up front, right from day one. It's selfish of us not to pass all the information, uh, and the the positive impact and the influence and showing guys what's right versus what's wrong and and leading that uh leaving this fire service better than what we found it. So thanks for the opportunity to be on the podcast. Uh it's been a while since I've seen you guys. Um that's all I have.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:25

Pam, if I could just say one thing based off what they said, and it I went, I'm speaking to that young, that young fireman out there. Um, closed mouths don't get fed. You guys are very, and and maybe you don't know what you don't know, but if you have a curiosity, a question, or you're not sure what was being said or what that meant, or what went on there. We have a responsibility, and Randy said it, it's non-negotiable, and it ain't just captain, I mean senior people in the agency. And that goes for whoever you're senior to. If you're the seven-year guy, senior to the three-year guy, there is a responsibility to mentor, to pass down, to teach them the job. That said, they don't always want no, they're timid to ask, afraid to ask, don't know what to ask. You know, one thing I loved about having Randy when he came into my crew years ago is he had the he had uh the the the mindset. He he he wasn't he had humility, tenacity, passion, aggression, everything I need, I needed from a guy. I just had to fill in the blanks for him as much as I could at my level. And I don't think our people, if they do have it, they keep that pretty subdued. And maybe that's a fault of our of our organizations, you know. Shut up, rookie. Maybe that's part of that problem. But uh we gotta, I'm I'm encouraging you the younger members that are listening to this to ask the questions. I don't give a shit if someone gives you a hard time for it because they probably will, because that's the fire service. Take it on the chin, don't take your ball and run home. All right, and ask the question and be persistent. Persistence pays off.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:10

Awesome. Hey, uh, appreciate all you guys coming on again today, dude. Um, I I I personally picked up quite a bit from this. Thanks for doing it. Um, we got a couple things down the pipeline, Colin. You touched on one of them on talking about training that we're gonna have a podcast on here pretty soon. Look out for. Um, we do have uh another one. You want to talk about the the other podcast coming up, Mark, with our guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:35

Oh, on on uh it's one day next week, I don't know, it's Tuesday or Wednesday, we're gonna have the uh ex uh DDC of LAFD, uh Joe Castro, uh coming on. And uh I'm hoping I discussed this with Colin is uh if you guys have questions that you would like to uh for us to kind of uh throw out to you, Chief Castro and the position that he was in and the respect that he was given, uh, which is very hard uh for people to earn in the position that he's in. And I I don't think I've talked to one person that did not like Joe and his leadership style. So you guys have that, send them forward to the uh West Coast offense. And if I could just add one thing for you guys, and that is um I I think the fire service as a whole, you guys kind of showed it, right? Is we're looking for support from the upper echelon for what we do, and the people that are passionate about the job that we do. Um, I'll say just two things, and it was from a uh famous one-legged man that I know very well, and that is if you quit, they win. And we have a duty to teach, they have a duty to learn. If we're in that position of possessing a skill set, teach them everything you can teach them, make sure they understand it's their job to learn what you're teaching them.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:56

Awesome. Thanks again, guys. Um, thanks everyone else for tuning in again for another episode, and we'll catch you on the next one.

unknown 1:56:03

Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:04

Thanks.