A Conversation with Dr. Louise Hayes: Integrating Buddhist Wisdom into Therapeutic Practice (Part 1)

In this inaugural episode of the Practitioner's Heart Podcast, host Poh Gan introduces the show’s mission to offer practical Buddhist wisdom for therapists and healthcare workers. The episode features part 1 of an in-depth conversation with Dr. Louise Hayes, a psychologist, author, and expert in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), who shares her journey of integrating Buddhism with psychology. They discuss the significance of meditation, presence, and letting go of attachments in professional and personal life, emphasising the profound impact of these practices on therapeutic work. 

00:00 Introduction to The Practitioner's Heart

02:21 Reflection on the First Interview

05:06 Conversation with Dr. Louise Hayes Begins

05:38 Louise Hayes' Journey and Insights

15:40 The Role of Buddhism in Therapy

23:06 Personal Practices and Professional Growth

37:58 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Part 2 of the conversation will be released on the 9/2/2026. 

Dr Louise Hayes brings two decades of acceptance and commitment therapy expertise to her comprehensive training programs.

Louise Hayes' ACT training combines clinical excellence with practical application making her one of Australia's most sought after psychology trainers. 

Louise's website: https://www.louisehayes.com.au/ 

Transcript

Hey, welcome to the practitioner's heart offering practical Buddhist wisdom for a sustainable practice for therapists and healthcare workers. If you are keen to learn more and deepen your practice beyond the theoretical understanding of Buddhism. If you are finding it hard to calm your little active mind after therapy work, I welcome you to join me to dive a little deeper.

Each episode I'll be sharing some common issues that therapists may face when integrating and practicing awareness, compassion within themselves, and also supporting clients. I'll be sprinkling some pearls of wisdom. That I've learned from my master and teachers that will be helpful as internal resources for the helpers in us.

I'll also be interviewing other therapists who are on these spiritual paths together to share their experiences of how they integrate and practice wisdom and compassion in their daily lives. I want to let you know that you're not alone. You are part of a bigger community who aspire for greater soul alignment, growth, purpose, and awakening, that we can strike a balance of juggling our busy modern life as therapists with a clear mind and an open heart.

I hope to inspire more practitioners to explore deeper spiritual meaning and purpose on our path to enlightenment and awakening. I am your host, Poh Gan, a psychologist, a Buddhist practitioner, a parent of two children, a fellow human being with a busy mind, but with a great inspired vision for collective awakening.

Let's begin.

Hey, before we begin today's episode, I wanted to share a small reflection from the editing process. This conversation with louise was the very first interview that I recorded for the Practitioner's Heart Podcast. I remember feeling a little bit excited and you know, that vulnerability that comes with beginning something new and listening back, um, I could hear those

jitters again, but I think like listening back, it was really nice to, to recognize how soothing it was to be in the presence of someone who really knows her stuff and has been practicing for a period of time.

And I think Louise has this presence that actually helps me to settle and I got into the flow a little bit more. And could feel my breath slow down and both of us getting more authentic as we went.

I guess that's something grounding and nourishing when we are sitting with someone who leads with humility and with heart. So the full recording was quite long, so I've divided it into two parts. The part one, which you are about to hear focuses more on her experiences with Buddhism psychology and the practices that sustains her.

The second part, shifts more into her clinical wisdom about the DNAV how to work with young people and supporting young people in therapy today, and her sharing about how to maintain our wellbeing when fatigue and burnout hits. So this conversation with Louise has been really nourishing for me, and I hope it offers something meaningful for you as well.

For me. The themes of letting go of that striving and returning to presence that's been, um, something that I took away from the conversation, and I think it has been an essential part of my growth and development as a therapist as well. So if there's anything that resonates with you and any particular part that you really enjoy, I would love to hear from you.

Please feel free to DM me, email me to share what you took away from this conversation. Okay. Here is part one of my conversation with Dr. Louise Hayes.

welcome to the Practitioner's Heart Podcast, a space where we explore the inner life of psychologists, therapists, and healthcare professionals, where Buddhist wisdom meets everyday practice and where we honour the tender human parts of doing this work.

I'm so delighted to be joined today by Dr. Louise Hayes. She's the psychologist, author, teacher, and someone whose work has profoundly shaped how so many of us think about young people, identity, and living meaningful lives. Dr. Louise Hayes brings two decades of acceptance and commitment therapy expertise to her comprehensive training programs.

Louise Hayes' ACT training combines clinical excellence with practical application making her one of Australia's most sought after psychology trainers. Most importantly, Louise is someone who carries a real depth of presence and warmth. I'm very lucky to have crossed path with you and connected with you after fangirling you since the ACBS WorldCon in 2009, in Melbourne.

Since then I've been following your work. In 2020 I attended your DNA-V training in Perth, and that was a time when I had just lost my mother. I was in tears most of the times, um, in that two days of training. But, it's still really moving for me to, see you and attended your training and more recently,

you join me in the, Bodhi meditation Circle and given very generous feedback and encouragement for me to explore further about Buddhism and therapist wellbeing, and hence the start of this podcast. It feels very special that you said yes to be the first guest of these podcasts. Thank you for being here, Louise.

Thank you Poh. What a nice introduction. I, uh, I never know what to say when people do those introductions, but thank you and I'm delighted to be here because I think that the work you're doing is really helpful and important. 

Thank you. I'm very excited about our discussion today because the shared interest we have about the eastern tradition of Buddhism and in general about psychology, I'm really keen to explore this further and pick your brain and your wisdom.

Okay. Me too. I'm gonna pick your brain too 

I wanted this podcast to be more like a heart to heart conversation, so hopefully this is a conversation that, will benefit the listeners and also between the two of us. Good. Before we dive into work and wisdom that you have gathered over the years, I would love to start with something simple.

What is something small that's been bringing you joy lately? 

Oh, what a lovely question. Well, um, um, well, I'm gonna say something that I'm surprised I'm gonna say but I'm saying it. I do Pilates and I've been doing Pilates for several years. Something that's been bringing me joy lately is,

practicing breathing properly. I've been breathing all my life. But, it has completely changed my practice. We have been really focusing on breathing properly, which slows everything down and I can breathe for meditation. I realized that I wasn't breathing in a way that was helping my health.

And so just, I did Pilates today. That's why it's come to mind. And yes, focusing on making sure that I'm doing something that's really invigorating. I love Pilates anyway, which is weird to say 'cause I don't like exercise, but I actually love Pilates, 

yes. I, love Pilates because it's slowing you down and the awareness of the muscles

as you are doing it. I think that has been really helpful as well. It's really, process based. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. So 

really thinking about my breathing has been making me feel very happy. 

That's awesome. That's really cool. I have started this year with Zumba and it's something I've never tried before and I thought I would be brave and I tried and I actually quite like it.

It was, I probably will be the most awkward person in the room.

It sounds like so much fun. Zumba really does 

yeah, it is actually quite fun. So, I guess maybe we'll start with a little bit about, who you are, sharing a little bit about who you are and then what brought you to the path of helping. 

Wow. Who I am. Well, the normal thing would be to say, I'm a psychologist and, yada, yada, yada.

But I don't think that is who I am. I think that I'm a person who is always practicing, trying to come into myself and be the best person I can be. And I think that's actually who I am. And I think that as you get older. With every decade, you kind of get a little bit better.

You know, if I think back from my twenties and thirties, with each decade I've got a little bit better at deciding who I am and really owning who I am, allowing myself to be vulnerable, and to be make mistakes, and to be who I am. So I think that's who I am first.

Right? Yes. I love that. And I really wanna push against the idea that people have to say they're a, you know, whatever their career or job is, or mm-hmm. You know, all the roles that we have. I think first and foremost is to be who you think you are. Who you want to be. 

Yeah. I can feel that you are speaking from the heart and that's what I would really love.

It is really true that all of those roles and responsibilities and the things you have achieved over the years, they are the labels, they are the things that are, uh, kind of temporary and may not be the essence of who we are, isn't it?

I think so. And maybe if I was 20 and listening to this conversation, I'd probably be screwing up my face and thinking, what are they talking about? 

Yeah. 

I also think that I've spent way too much time striving for things. 

Okay. 

When you strive for something and then you get that thing, there's something else that you're striving for, and then there's something else that you're striving for.

So I think, finding a way to just be who I am and be okay with who I am is a good place to start. 

Mm, I love it. So you started working as a psychologist? Yeah. Is it 20 years ago that that started the helping or is it more, I guess like this helping work that you've started?

What led you to this path? 

Psychology is my second career. That was not my chosen career. It was what happened to me after I had children. Before that I was a retail buyer. Completely nothing to do with psychology. I was a retail buyer and what I cared about was how much profit I could make.

That's what I got told I had to care about. How much profit I could make. My salary depended on it and my career depended on it. And then I had children and everything changed. 

I had children and everything changed and I decided that I wanted, to go back to work, to something that I would enjoy, that fit that change in my life. Mm-hmm. And I went to study social work. Mm. And had to do psychology and loved it. Mm. I fell in love with psychology, but I had never planned that.

Mm-hmm. And I think if we think across our lives that happens mm-hmm. Things just kind of fall in your lap or you try something and it completely changes your direction. Yeah. Yes. You know, we always think we know where we're going, but that's not true. Yeah. We just, things happen. So, yeah.

Psychology happened to me. I choose it, it happened to me and I loved it. It was like the lights had gone on and I, was loving the study and thought Yeah. 

It's 

So interesting. 

So that's how

that's how I ended up there. 

I think you have had a very rich, and meaningful career throughout the last few decades, and it's really interesting to hear you reflecting like the striving and, and where you feel really grounded in returning back to yourself over time.

I think a lot of early career psychologists me included, often feel like we need to fall into this striving and going for the next goal. It's interesting to hear you having been through that path and then telling us, maybe that is not the most important thing.

I think there's two things. I think there's wanting to develop yourself and wanting to extend your career. And then they're striving and they're not the same things. So, sure. Grow, extend your career, learn new things. 

Mm-hmm. 

Develop different parts of your business like you are doing.

You know, I think those are all wonderful things that I'm gonna keep doing 

mm-hmm. 

But that striving piece for me was the needing to do it to be good enough. 

Okay. Tell me a bit more. 

It was like always needing to prove to myself that I was good enough, 

it's not only a free open choice, it was more like being pushed from the back, you know, I have to do this. Mm mm. I have to do this, and then I'll be good enough and then I'll be good enough and then I'll be good enough. Now I still of course don't think I'm good enough, but I'm okay with that.

That's cool. I'm hearing that you wanted to be, more stepping, like still doing the same work, but the space where you're coming from is no longer about using external achievement to validate your self-worth. 

Yeah, I think so. And I think Buddhism has given me that.

Mm-hmm. I 

don't think psychology did not give me that. Psychology gave me knowledge. 

Yeah. 

But it didn't give me that groundedness. 

Yeah. I was going to ask how has Buddhism come into your life and how do you integrate the two things together? That's what we wanted to talk more about.

Maybe tell us a little bit more about how did psychology come into your life first, and then we'll unfold a little bit more. Sure. 

How did psychology come into my life? 

Buddhism? Sorry, did I say Buddhism or psychology? You said psychology, but we'll go into Buddism. Oh, did I? I'm sorry.

Did you say that? 

Buddhism I don't kind of remember a starting point. I have always really loved to read about philosophy, I never studied philosophy at university, and that's a regret that I have, I've always enjoyed reading about different philosophies. Somewhere along the way, Eastern philosophy and Buddhism were things that I started to read about. 

Mm-hmm. 

And that was more knowledge, right? Mm-hmm. More acquiring knowledge. But I think then I went to Nepal. And that was 20 years ago.

So I went to Nepal and went to the Himalaya. And being in the Himalaya where Buddhism is not an add-on, and not just a religion, but a culture. And there is no separation. There is no part of the people who live in the Himalaya. There's no part of them that is Buddhist and part that's not,

it's not just a religion, but it's a culture. And what I saw and experienced was a culture of where Buddhism was kind of everywhere. Not only a religion, but also a way of living. It's in the way you cook the way you pick the vegetables from the garden and the way you treat other people.

That was profound for me. It really opened my eyes watching people who have this interconnectedness in their life, in everything from things like, don't pick the flowers because the flowers have a right to be there. All of these little things that were actually really big things.

It was really profound to experience that buddhism wasn't an add-on and it wasn't knowledge. It was a way of living. Thinking about everything that you do is interconnected with other things and, you can find a way to be in the world and with the world.

That was when I went, well, this is just more than what I thought it was, more than four noble truths, right? 

Yeah. More than what the books have described, but it's really lived and 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the intention of everything from, you know, the way that you hand a cup of tea to someone, through to, everything.

I'm not suggesting that the people in the Himalaya are perfect and don't get angry and don't make mistakes. But the culture of Buddhism was, profoundly insightful to me. 

So you're naturally attracted to, like that is the essence or the practice of Buddhism more so than, 

Four Noble truth on Western text that you have read before. And were there particular, parts of the teachings that really resonate or the practice that really resonate with you? 

Well, I think there are teachings that resonate, but also practices 

I love psychology and it gave me so much information. But I think western psychology was missing that presence. Mm. That for me, that ability to, you know, connect with your profoundness Mm mm to connect with ourselves as humans. I can't even find words to describe that.

It sounds so fluffy. But, just that hereness, being here, like that hereness and that sense of our bodies and our presence, I think western psychology didn't give me that. I often kind of make a joke that I've learned as much or more from Buddhism than I have from psychology.

Yes, you have to listen to my episode that I've recorded, about psychology and, Buddhism. I was thinking that should I let you listen first before we record? It was somewhere along the line of Buddhism and, the psychology and how, it compliments and there are different and in some way, but I feel that, Buddhism's depth of describing 

the mind 

consciousness and the nature of the mind and that profoundness that you were talking about, that really, deep understanding about who we are and this earth and the interconnectedness is something 

not like, yes, 

we can't operationalize in psychology, but it's just not there yet. 

Yeah. It's not enough. As soon as you start to add labels to it, then

you're not connecting with your ground of being or your profoundness or who you are. You're just adding labels to things, which is more of what we do. 

Or the languaging that's like starting and it's then part away from 

Yeah. The profoundness. 

Well, that's 

right. And it's really hard to talk about it without sounding airy fairy I have this saying on my computer, which came from one of my teachers which I look at every day when my computer turns on, and it says, "to live in captivity is to live in the narrow corridor of our concepts." The reason I have that is our concepts that kind of narrow our lives.

Even when we try to talk about letting go of those concepts and finding this way of being in the world, this profound ground of being like mm-hmm. What are you actually talking about? The only way to get that is to let go of concepts and do something that gets you in touch with it. 

Mm-hmm.

So when you start to talk about it, you kind of lost it. Mm. But I think that if we find a way to recognize what our concepts do to us and how they do narrow our lives we'd be so much richer. Mm. Not money wise either. Yes. Psychologically 

rich.

Yes. 

Yeah. 

And in 

some ways, psychology, although we try to help clients get away from those concepts 

mm-hmm. 

We use other concepts to get away from those concepts. 

Sometimes my master reminds me, that, however you're trying to explain the concepts you are still using, the theoretical understanding.

You're still using a mind to describe this thing that is beyond the mind. I feel like you understand what I'm talking about. And it's like, oh yes, good sometimes, and then you don't, and 

but thought of thinking of our concepts as like. The way we use our minds and our concepts is like a narrow corridor.

Mm-hmm. And then there are all these things that are outside that corridor. Mm-hmm. Which you can only get in touch with if you find different ways to practice and be. 

So tell us a little bit more about your practice. Like what are some of the personal practice that you have for yourself?

So personal Buddhist practice first, and then we'll see how it go. Yes. 

Well, you know, um, well me meditation mainly a couple of different ways of doing meditation, but, silent meditation is my preferred in a tibetan style that, really comes from, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

That's kind of my preferred, but when I say that, there's always times when I'm doing it and when I'm not doing it. It's not like I meditate every single day. 

Mm-hmm. 

I tend, I like, I'm gonna be honest, sometimes I have months when I don't, and then

months when, years when I do, and then I get bored and I stop and I do something different. But without a doubt meditation is the key to connecting to that part of you 

yeah. 

Is judgment, non-judgmental awareness, that part of it. 

Do you find that Buddhism has helped you to become a better psychologist?

Because in some of the early times when I've come across some of the trainings in, ACT, they say that you don't have to practice meditation. And there are these, modern techniques that you can practice defusion and like, you know, 

yeah, exceptions and 

all of that will help you to defuse and work on what matters to you and it will reduce psychological suffering and increase flexibility.

In my own experience, I've felt that meditation has helped me to be more aware and attuned to. All that is happening within me and the person in front of me and the process between the two. I'm curious about your thoughts about how your meditation practice have helped you.

Well, I think, you know, I did think that you didn't always need to do meditation, and I do think you still don't always need to do meditation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. at the in act we talk about that because not everybody can mm-hmm. But, or wants to or is not necessarily good for everyone.

But I think if you move to that being in the world or being here, we need to find a way to be able to do that. Mm. You know, to recognize our fears and our resistance and our protections and our attachments to things being a certain way. Mm. And. To find a way to be here in the world. Mm-hmm. So, you know, whether that's walking mm-hmm.

Or whether it's meditating on a cushion or whether it's, you know, whatever else people like to do, I think we've gotta find a way to be in the world. And to just watch things, watch what arises, and watch what falls. I think that's really important. And I think in, when you talk about acceptance and commitment therapy, we kind of do that, but it's kind of superficial sometimes.

It's going by. Always said that out loud. It can be a bit superficial, although maybe that's just my journey. I can see lots of other people who really, do it in a very deep and profound way, this being here. But I think honoring that, that presence and alongside us, honoring yourself as a human and not being afraid of the humans that you are around. It's kind of letting go of all of those, like it's a continual letting go. And maybe we don't talk about that as much, in therapy. That we would talk about in Buddhism. It's like letting go of everything. 

Mm 

And 

you have to 

keep letting go 

to 

find the thing that's there.

Yes. And as you were talking about it, I was thinking that, when I'm thinking about practice, it is actually beyond just meditation. The silent practice is very important. But it is the moment to moment being aware. Perhaps some of the teachings of Buddhism and the parts where you truly practice, you can, get in touch with that profoundness.

Or that Buddha nature that we were talking about. Maybe that's the common term that we use, that has helped the practice of a psychologist. So maybe it is true, you don't necessarily have to sit down, but it is that, teachings that you embody that actually makes a difference.

And that letting go, that piece was, very important, isn't it? Mm-hmm. And never ending. 'cause you have to keep letting go all the time. And because we keep picking things up as we go and like, you know, they're, oh, like, this is good. That's so easily fold. I'll attached to that again. Yes. Yes. I thought 

I let that go and then I came back bringing that back again.

And here it is again. Yes. Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to think about it. The thing that Buddhism has given me that I add onto therapy is I feel like I know less now than what I did before. I feel like I don't have to be the expert anymore.

I can just be a person and say, I don't know. And I think there's less of a fear around being with other people. And being with a client who's struggling. I think I'm less afraid of doing the right thing, of being perfect, I think that humanness is what comes through.

And how would learning Buddhism has given you that piece? That being human is Okay. 

I think through practice. Lots of the practice that I do is going to the Himalaya and taking professionals to the Himalaya, there's no way to practice like putting yourself in charge of 10 people for two weeks at high altitude

and still something on my list that I wanted to do with you one 

day. One day. We, yes. 

Be wonderful. 

Watching other people and being together and watching the way we get attached to things Mm. And watching it arise, our anxiety about, you know, all the, when life is different, when everything, has been stripped away and you're in a place where you don't know the culture and you don't know the food, and you don don't know the language and, and the altitude is challenging.

So I think when you take all those contextual things away, all the familiarity is gone. Then you're in a place where you need to practice being a human. And you're allowed to have your emotions and you're allowed to be vulnerable and you can discover that it's okay. Mm. Mm-hmm.

So I think, they're like deep practices that I have done a couple of times a year now, and I think they've been really helpful. Not just in me, but also watching some of the people that come with us. And helping them let go of their attachments to how things need to be.

I think that's been really helpful. 

Yeah. 

And I think you can do that in lots of other ways. It's the familiar things around us that stop us from seeing things.

When you take that away, it's like when you go on holidays and you are able to sit on the beach or sit in a park and you think, where is my life and what am I doing? So I think that's really useful, those ways of shaking things up and changing it so that you can take time to think.

And maybe therapy does that too for clients. Maybe to get out of their normal world to come in and have a dedicated space to be safe and to explore your vulnerability 

I think because we regularly take time away from our familiar routine and we can then continue to be curious and like removing that lens that we're so familiar with.

Yeah. Yeah. 

And you watch how much you want that familiarity to be there. 

Familiarity. 

Yeah. That's always a challenging word. And you see that's the difference. Like the more we allow ourselves to be in this place, the more we get to be human. And it doesn't matter if you can't pronounce a word properly or you know, we're just kind of all the same, really just struggling along.

I feel like, just having this conversation with you when you're talking about this, like it's make me feel like this first episode of podcast is not too bad. Because before that I was so nervous and. And again, like, you know, I continue to put myself in new territory and experience all of that fear and continue to confront that.

And I guess it is the ongoing path isn't that we can't really, stop growing in some way. When we are in the comfort zone we feel like, oh, this is me and the ego started to show up and, and this is who I am. But like it through out the conversation I can see you embodying that sense of, holding them lightly.

You are not just describing it in a textbook or like in a training, but you are actually living that and. As you're describing your experience, which is so cool. Yes. Thank you. 

Well, I'm trying, but sometimes I do it really badly, but I'm trying. But you, you probably have seen, like me, you know, sometimes you go to places you meet people who have practiced for a long time.

Mm-hmm. In my mind, I have this nun in Kathmandu. Mm-hmm. And, she's pretty young. She's, she looks like she's 30, but maybe she's 40 or 50. When I visit that nunnery where she is, she shows us through some of the, monastery where she is.

There's something about their presence and their face. That you can't even pick an age, like how old is this person? There's a peacefulness from Yeah. From the s from within. From spending a lot of time practicing Peacefulness, 

And I'm not saying they're perfect, and we know all the problems that, happen in the world with different people. But there is something about if you watch someone who practices peacefulness they're peaceful. And you feel it when you talk to them.

You know, you feel it, like, I feel it with you. You have a presence about you that's really beautiful. Gentle and kind, and you can feel it. And so it makes sense if you want to be peaceful. We have to find ways to practice. 

Yes. It's not just gonna happen, right?

Yes, 

right. 

Yeah. And I guess for the listeners, it sounds like, because the things we're talking about, we have that common language, and it could be airy fairy for a lot of people. We're talking more about the qualities of the heart as we continue to practice.

So this podcast is about, helping practitioners to continue to, practice in a way that allows the heart to remain open steady and compassionate. It is not a technique, but it is more that state of being.

And what do you wish that the listeners could pay more attention to as they are learning new psychology, therapy models and all of that? What are the things that we are talking about that airy-fairy I make it 

really easy noticing, you know, being a noticer, noticing being aware of not just you, but of other people too.

Whether they're clients that you're working with or people that you are being with, being able to practice that skill of noticing and not automatically responding. I think that's what psychology is, right? 

Is, 

Learning how to notice

to be aware of what's happening, what's happening in my body, what's happening in your body, what's happening on your face, what's going on for me, noticing and the world around us you know, and noticing the way that energy arises between us. And I think that what happens is as we grow we get automatic responses.

So inside that noticing is also being aware of the way we respond and the way we've learn to respond. What I often say to my clients is being aware of the patterns. You know, that, somebody looks at me with a stern face and my pattern of responding might be to, try to apologize or to try to make things right.

And so, being aware of that, noticing everything that's unfolding, and then just pausing and allowing yourself to do something different, or to not respond or to change it. I think that's aware of our past, aware of the patterns. Aware of the way we get hooked. I think it all comes down to being a noticer.

Yes. And I guess like the noticer and understanding, it's related to, practicing the awareness and returning to that profound being and being aware of what is arising in us. And that's the part where the practices have helped us to, to really anchor that skills, isn't it?

I think so. So, and 

it doesn't sound very smart, like it not got big, fancy words, you know? Like in psychology, we love all those big fancy words and it doesn't have big, fancy words, but I actually think noticing is about the most profound thing. And the most useful thing that we can do. So whether I'm working with a 5-year-old

or a 95-year-old, being able to be aware of what's happening for you and what's happening for the people around you and the world around you and where your energy is going and what energy you're receiving. Can just change things. Unfortunately, it's not automatic and it's something that you have to do repeatedly 

because 

of the way learning works.

If you've learned to be worried when someone has a worried face, then you're gonna continue to have that pattern. And noticing and pausing and choosing to respond differently is something you need to do forever. 

That's good. But I don't think it's that hard. Yeah, it's just a matter of being conscious and being aware of that and actually choosing to practice.

Because a lot of the time it's so easy to go with the patterns. 

Exactly right. When I say I don't think it's hard, I mean, I don't think it's technically hard. I think it's actually really hard to do all the time. You know, it's really hard to do all the time but I don't think it's technically something hard to, grasp the concept of.

Definitely. I agree with you. And that quote I said before to live in captivity is to live in the narrow corridor of our concepts. So if you think of the way we see the world as this corridor of everything you've learned and everything, you know, kind of sits down this corridor.

Mm-hmm. And if you can just look somewhere else, there's other things happening and other ways. And then you're free, for a second until you get back trapped inside your, 

I think I'm going to put that quote in my notes now. I like that quote a lot.

The part one of the conversation with Louis will stop here. The part two will be released next week. I hope you enjoy today's conversation.

As we close our practice for today, I want to thank you for sharing this time. If this episode resonated with you, the most meaningful way to support the podcast is to share it, share it with a colleague, or live a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It helps our community to reach other people who need it.

Until next time. Keep your heart open, keep your mind clear and steady. Go be your amazing self as you awaken yourself and others.

See you next time.

Just a gentle reminder that our conversation today is for inspiration and education only. It's not a substitute for therapy or clinicals. Supervision and our time together doesn't constitute a therapeutic relationship.