Take the Swing: Reinvention, Failure, and the Courage to Keep Going with Amy Nelson

In this deeply honest and powerful episode, Melanie sits down with Amy Nelson, founder, CEO, legal strategist, and fierce advocate for reinvention and resilience.

Amy’s journey defies convention. From a successful career in corporate law to building a venture-backed company, to navigating a seven-year legal battle that upended her family’s life, she has lived through moments where the stakes were high and the path forward unclear.

What emerges from this conversation is not just a story of perseverance, but a profound redefinition of failure, success, and what it means to truly live.

Together, Melanie and Amy explore:

• The fear of failure and how to move through it
• Letting go of traditional definitions of achievement
• The courage to pivot and reinvent at any stage of life
• Leading and making decisions with imperfect information
• Finding strength and resourcefulness in crisis
• The importance of community, vulnerability, and telling your story
• Navigating shame, public perception, and inner narratives
• Holding both joy and pain at the same time

Amy shares raw, personal reflections from building her company to fighting for her family. She shares the mindset shifts that allowed her to keep going when the odds felt impossible.

This episode is a powerful reminder that you are never starting from zero, that reinvention is always available, and that the most meaningful growth often comes from stepping into the unknown.

If you’re facing a pivot, a challenge, or a moment where everything feels uncertain, this conversation will meet you there.

To learn more about Amy and The Riveter: https://www.theriveter.co/

If this conversation resonated, please follow, rate, and share it with someone who is doing their own inner work.

What’s In Your Neighborhood™ is a nonprofit focused on leaders developing their inner landscapes and building community dedicated to normalizing healing, reducing stigma, and expanding how we think about strength, leadership, and what it means to come home to ourselves.

To learn more, get involved, or support the mission, visit www.whatsinyourneighborhood.org.

Until next time, keep tending to your own neighborhood. It matters more than you know.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to What's in Your Neighborhood, Conversations for the Shame Shifter in all of us. I'm Melanie Vargas. After decades in executive leadership and coaching high performers, I've learned the real work happens in the parts that we hide. Each episode, I sit with leaders, rebels, and real people who've taken off their masks to explore their inner landscape, shaping how we live and lead. If you're ready for more truth, courage, and authenticity, you're in the right place. So let's go there. What's in your neighborhood? Welcome everyone. Thanks for joining me today. We're stepping into a conversation that I think will resonate for many of you. I'd love to start off just telling you a little bit about today's guest. I've known Amy Nelson for many years, and I have an incredible amount of respect, not just for her career trajectory, but the way that she's been an advocate for women, especially working mothers, from her background in law and politics to launching a venture-backed company while raising for daughters. She brings both heart and grit to everything that she does. And I would say she's done all of this while navigating very real, messy human side of her leadership and her life. So a little bit more about Amy and her background. Amy advises founders, executives, and high-profile individuals navigating the hardest inflection points of their careers and lives, the moments when everything is on the line and the playbook doesn't exist. She knows the territory firsthand. Amy is the founder of The Ribeter, a venture-backed company she launched in Seattle in 2017 and grew into a national platform. She raised $30 million in venture capital, pivoted the business during the pandemic, and built a career in media platform-reaching millennial and Gen X women with the tools and thought leadership to build the work lives they actually want. Before the Riveter, Amy spent a decade as a corporate litigator in some of the top law firms in the country, including Cathill Gordon and Rendell, and Dorsey and Whitney, representing Fortune 500 companies in the bet the company disputes. Amy and her family also navigated a harrowing four-year legal battle of their own, including a federal investigation and the use of civil forfeiture that appended their lives before ultimately closing without any criminal charges filed. The experience reshaped her perspective and her work. Today, Amy consults privately with leaders facing pivotal professional and personal moments, government investigations, board disputes, reputational challenges, founder transitions, and other high-stakes situations where early decisions shape long-term outcomes. She brings the rare combination of a litigator's mind, a CEO's operational instincts, and a deep lived understanding of what it takes to lead through crisis. She's also a leading advocate for criminal justice reform with a particular focus on civil forfeiture, a graduate from Emory University and NYU School of Law. She has written for Forbes, Newsweek, The Washington Post, The Seattle Times, and The Blaze, and hosted an iHeart Radio podcast. She has spoken at Fortune's Most Powerful Women, Can Lyons, and SXSW, and has been featured on the Today Show, Bloomberg, Refinery29. She speaks daily to her community of more than 500,000 followers across TikTok, Instagram, and X. So welcome, Amy. I could not be more thrilled that you're you've chosen to spend this time with us.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Thank you so much for having me, Melanie.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Of course. No, thank you. I've really been looking forward to our conversation today. You know, we've we talked a little about this idea of an emotional neighborhood. Um, whether it's um metaphorically or or whatnot, what really comes to mind for you when you're thinking about your own emotional neighborhood?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

When I think about an emotional neighborhood, I think both about kind of like the different neighborhoods like I traverse myself, like the different emotions I go through, but then also who is in the neighborhood with me, right? And how that influences my emotions.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

When you when you look back across your career, your life, all the many experiences that you've had, and you've just had an amazing story. Can you think to a specific moment that really stands out that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, when I I think about this a lot because, you know, I think I led kind of the life I thought I would always lead to a certain point. And that was when I left corporate litigation to build a startup, The Riveter. And, you know, I've always been an adventurous person, I've always wanted to do big things, but I think for a long time I was very afraid to pivot into a world that I didn't quite understand, that I was afraid of in some ways, that was off kind of the beaten path I'd been shown my whole life. Because, you know, as I'm I'm a Zenial between Gen X and Millennial. I think we're kind of like the last generation that was told, like, you're gonna graduate college, you're gonna have a career, you're gonna do that your whole life, and then you'll retire. And so pivots, big pivots, were quite a deviation from what we envisioned for our lives. But when I um had this idea to start my company and leave corporate lawyering, I remember at first the idea was to build uh one clubhouse for women who might want to pivot from corporate America to working on their own. Eventually, the rivet instead, I built like 10 big co-working spaces, raised $30 million, took a completely different path. And the moment when I decided to do that was a pivotal moment in my life because I remember speaking to my husband and asking, you know, well, what if I didn't just build one clubhouse? What if I built a venture-back company? And my husband was like, take the bat and swing it as hard as you can. If you're asking the question, you should do it. And I said to him, What if I fail? He goes, Then you fail. He's like, you are in most likelihood going to fail. Most entrepreneurs do. Then you'll think of something else to do. And I know that's just a sentence that someone said to me, but it was my husband. And A, it showed a faith in me that I think was, you know, meant a lot to me because it was my partner. But second, it was this realization, him saying that to me, I was like, oh, like I can fail. I don't have to be perfect and good. Like I can just take a swing and see what happens. And I won't be kicked off the planet if I fail. It won't be the end of my life. Like I can just try again. And I don't know why it took me so long to realize that and to reframe my life around that idea. But realizing it that in that moment allowed me to form the rest of my life and the rest of my decisions based on that attitude and outlook.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, there's just so many nuggets in there. Um, even starting with who's in your neighborhood and thinking about that support when because you're right, so many, so many people stay stuck in misery because they're afraid of pivoting. And you talked about that fear too. If you think about some of those emotions that that resonate during that time in your life, besides, you know, you talked about fear, but if there's anything else that really stands out.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Well, I think I spent most of my life measuring around this idea of achievement by the standards I've been taught. Like, did you get an A? Did you win the election in the class, you know, the the class presidency? Like, did you get into the right college? Did you get into the right law school? Like this, this very kind of typical measure of achievement. And so to reframe a life around the idea of failure is possible, failure is growth, failure is good, took a lot. Right. And so I think in that moment, I up until that moment, I felt as I'd always felt, like I need to be good and perfect and hit the markers and achieve the roles. And like in the in the legal sense, that would have been make partner at the law firm, or at that point I'd gone in-house, keep climbing the in-house ladder, like I was a senior corporate counsel, like get to the next rung and the next run. And, you know, I realized, I'd realized a while before that conversation with my husband that the measures of achievement in the legal career were not the measures I wanted to hit. I knew I didn't win the, want to win the pie contest at the law firm. Like I didn't want more pie. I didn't want to be a partner. It's not what I wanted. I knew, and very quickly, once I went in-house, I knew that was not what I wanted either. Because I felt like I was just in like meeting after meeting, and it wasn't very interesting or innovative. So I think I realized I didn't want to hit those traditional markers, but it still took me a while to say, okay, I am willing to take a risk. I am willing to fail. I am willing to do something else.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, I love that. And so much in what you said about failure resonated for me. The other piece that I was thinking about as you were you were talking is this idea of achievement. And I've worked with so many high achievers in my career, and I've had my own journey with achievements and work addiction and identity and all those kind of things. If you think about the internal dialogue for you and kind of some of those voices, what do you feel like were some of the loudest ones during all of that?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

I mean, I think it goes back to the fear of failure and of public failure. Like, what if I try this and I don't make it? What does that mean? Will I get to try something again? I think I had internalized this belief, and maybe it was set, you know, like in in the the patriarchy like rearing its head in my own life, but I just thought I had one chance, you know, one chance to to do the right thing, to do the good thing, to to win. And um that if I didn't hit it, I would, I would strike out and that would be that would be it. And I think you know, I think that could be true for a lot of people, um, but it can also not be true. And the fact is you have to choose for it not to be true. And I learned that much later, like when I failed, right? Like it was like, okay, you can be you can be stuck down and you can be tired and you can say I quit, I'm done, or you can stand back up and say, What now? Like you get endless opportunities to reinvent yourself and your career. Like no one will stop you, only you will. Um, but those are all things that I think really largely came from saying yes the first time to failing.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah, I have done a lot of work in this area of fear of failure myself and also working in organizations that do not embrace failure. And, you know, that we can't be resilient if we're not willing to face those fears and our own relationship, our own personal relationship with failure is such an important part of that journey to get underneath that. And um, it does get in the way of reinventing yourself, your organization, your life if you are stuck in that.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I think often now, you know, I am in the midst of raising four little girls. They are between the ages of six and eleven. They all play sports. And I think I realized this a year or so ago. We are constantly encouraging our children to fail, to try and fail. We're like, try, fail. Who cares? Who gives a shit? Give it a shot. You know, you never know. And it's like, at what age did we stop teaching people to do that? Because there's something in society that says, okay, you're you're done trying now. Now you just have to be good. And it's such bullshit. And I think that I try to think a lot about like, what are the things about being a child that are fun and interesting and that we somehow stop doing when we're adults? Like there's a movement now to remind adults, like, have hobbies because somehow we've forgotten to do it. But it's true. It's like, try a new sport, try knitting, do something, right? Like you, you're allowed to be a full person as an adult, and we should encourage adults to act as we encourage children to act. Because it's, you know, you're right. You stop learning, you don't learn resilience. You don't, like, there's no growth without teaching someone to try those things. And that's why we teach kids to try, because we need them to grow into full adults, but you can keep growing until the day you die.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, it's totally true. And we put such an emphasis on work here in the US, you know, this all or nothing that we have to be all in, and that we can't be a whole person and have life outside of work. And it's really hard to navigate all that. If you think about a moment, maybe big or small, where you felt something really starting to shift for you, what was that?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Um, I mean I think when I decided to start The Riveter, I realized pretty quickly that one of the markers of whether I succeeded or failed would be my ability to just make decisions quickly and with imperfect information. And then I had to get really comfortable with that. That was another big shift in the way I decided to work and to live my life. Because you can never have enough information or the right amount of information, and you can stall out and just not make decisions always. And we've seen so many companies fail because of that. We've seen so many lives kind of not live up to their potential because of that. And so that was a big mindset shift and one that I think has like saved my life, honestly, over and over again. Um, and I think a second you know, mindset shift in that sense of when I realized I was operating very differently was when my whole life was annihilated, when my husband was accused of a federal crime. And um that was really it's another, it was another conversation. When he was accused of a federal crime, he was accused by one of the most powerful companies in the world. And so we were dealing with this trillion dollar company and the Department of Justice. And a lot of people would have just sat down and said, There's no way we can't fight this. And my husband and I sat down and he looked at me and he said, You have to accept the worst possible outcome, which is that he could go to prison for something he didn't do. Uh, and then you have to fight like hell against it. And that moment was like, when I when I was starting the Riveter, like I felt like I had a good foundation and like maybe I could succeed. When we decided to fight his legal battle, it was like, we are probably going to lose, but burn the boats, screw it, we're gonna give it everything we had. You know, and and and we had to, like, we had to lay it all on the table. And fighting from that position where I thought there was little chance of success was somewhat freeing. And then it was like, well, I mean, I'll try anything, I'll do everything, let's just give it all we have. And I realized that when you do that, even if the odds are almost completely against you, which they were with us. Like if you look at the odds of like the fact he was never charged with a crime after getting a target letter, the odds of that were like 3%. You know, the odds of like beating of getting the DOJ not to indict, the odds of the DOJ ended up vacating pleas from alleged co-conspirators with the which the odds are like 0.0001%. You know, but I realized that even if the odds are almost completely against you, if you're creative, if you dig into your toolbox, if you just keep going, like you might win. And so why not try?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

That is such a beautiful story. And even this image, I think you said burn the boat. I was thinking about that as you were telling that story. Just an amazing journey that you've all had as a family and in your partnership with your husband and what you've learned from that, both as individuals, as a family. What are some of the key learnings that stand out for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I think some of the key learnings are that none of us are starting from zero when we're in a crisis or we're dealing with the hardest things. You should like you can really sit down and figure out like, what do I have to fight with? You are never starting from zero. It can be you can have relationships that can help you, you can have skills that you can apply to what you're dealing with, but like to treat it like a project, it's work, right? Like that's you know how we dealt with this crisis. And I think that is a framework I will take into every hard thing I ever have to deal with for the rest of my life. Like to stop, to sit down and say, like, what is the problem and what do I have to solve it? Or who can I ask, or what skills do I have? I think the other thing that we really learned, and I learned along the way, and I learned by taking risks, was to embrace the mess of it. You know, conventionally, when we go through the hardest or most shameful or scariest things in our lives, a lot of us have this sentiment that we should keep our heads down, be quiet, try to get through it and not tell people about it. But like we are not built to go through things alone, first of all. And so we shouldn't try to because it makes it 10 times harder. But then second, like when you embrace what you're going through in a way that you're willing to talk about it, that you're willing to share the story, you're first gonna help a ton of other people, which I think is really important and incumbent upon us if we are people who are willing to fight through hard things. But then second, you will get help. You will find resources, people will come to your aid. And that is how we survive. Like if you were going through, like if you were in a natural disaster in a neighborhood, your neighborhood would come together to clean up, to help one another, to feed one another, to make sure you had blankets. And when you're going through hard things like a divorce or a work scandal or criminal allegations like my husband, like you can access and tap into the same kind of neighborhood, but you have to be willing to tell people what's going on. And so I will always be willing to tell people.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

I that's a very important message for our listeners. And part of the reason why I'm doing this because I think it's so important to be willing to surround yourself with community, because in many ways, we're all in crisis, whether it's collectively or individually. And we all have these experiences where we have either a crisis or a failure or some moment where we're stuck in the messy middle. And are you gonna stick your head in the sand or are you gonna fight? Um, I think another piece I heard from you is this part of you said kind of embracing what you're going through. And what I take from that is just that whatever challenge you're facing, there is some kind of gift in it. And if you can receive that, even with failure, there's gift, and you talked about the gifts of failure. Yeah. But that is going to help you move through it so much easier than burying your head in the sand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

And part of it too is there's so and this this might sound callous or horrible, but often people ask me, like, do you wish this hadn't happened or how do you feel about it or whatever? And it's kind of like it happened, right? Like it doesn't really, like, of course I wasn't happy it happened, but I don't sit and think about my feelings about it a lot because I would rather sit and think about how we go through it and go right through it and go, you know, and go through it with as much tenacity, grace as you can, but like solving the problem. Because a lot of times I think we're asked to reflect in the moment on how we feel about something horrible that's happening to us. You also have to deal with the thing that's happening. And I think that's more important than reflecting on how you feel about it because some of these things you can't change. You just have to deal with them. And digging in and taking the steps, it's, you know, it's interesting. I think a lot about um, you know, when we were dealing with these criminal allegations, one thing I thought is like there's no community for people dealing with this. Like nobody, there's no, you know, you can't just like go to a group and and talk with people about it. But I think a lot about AA. And the power of AA is that, you know, when you are dealing with something that you feel powerless over, there is a community that you can go to of people where you can tell your story. You, you will not be ashamed, you will be heard. And there are steps to work through. There is a program to work through, right? And that's kind of like I feel like in so many things that we go through that are hard, like having steps is really important and a process and something to follow. And so I think, like, I hope that in sharing stories like this, we can all start to find those communities, whatever our hard thing is, because they're all different.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, I love that. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I have been in AA for three decades. And you're right, it is, I've often said that I wish everybody had a program like AA because you do have this community of support.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

And you do have the foundation framework of the steps and working with a sponsor whenever you have some kind of crisis. And the reality is so many of us, I think especially high achievers, tend to go straight to, I have to battle this out by myself. I have to figure it out, I have to do it. You know, me, I, and we stay in our own myopic view of the situation versus when we bring in our support system, even our spouses can be that for us at times, that we get this different perspective and it helps us navigate whatever that challenge is.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

But again, I think it's like with all of these things, you have to be willing to talk about it. And it doesn't mean you have to talk about it on social media, which you know I did, but talk about it with someone. Yeah, it's it's really hard. I mean, my husband and I, when he was first accused of a crime, we didn't really tell anyone outside our family and closest friends for like a year. And I look back at that and I'm like, that was so lonely and so hard. And I wish I had told more people.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah, and that's another reason why I'm doing this, because I think it is how we get through all this. And a lot of times, I'm, you know, if anything, I'm the one that tends to say too much. And I'm always surprised at how guarded we show up when it comes to either a failure or some challenge we've had in our life. And yet, when we have the courage to be vulnerable in a way that you have put yourself out there, it Invites others to do that. And you uh you validate other people's experiences and open the door for them to have the courage to do it themselves. And that is how we build community is by sharing our story.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Is there a moment that stands out for you where you felt, you know, you talked a little bit about the messy middle, but maybe a part where you felt like you were just like, this is you were at your breaking point, or you like it hit a bottom, like I gotta do this differently. What stands out for you at that pivotal moment? You probably had a few.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

The pivotal moments. I mean, there was, it's interesting, like as um this is one with like the where there was no resolution, which is really interesting. And I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly, but when the Riveter was really scaling my company, you know, we went from an idea to 140 employees in two and a half years. And I'd never managed a person. I had been a litigator before, and it was all new to me, and it I found it to be incredibly hard. And I will say I was not good at it. Like I'm good at a lot of things, and I was not good at managing people. I wasn't prepared to define a corporate culture that scaled that quickly and to enforce it while I was out fundraising and selling, and we're a new company and all those things. And I do I do remember kind of in early 2020 before the pandemic, sitting there thinking, like, oh my God, I am on this train that is going 100 miles an hour and I don't, I'm not enjoying it. Like this is like I built this and I am not having fun. And it wasn't because I was working so hard. I love to work hard. It's like I'm that, I'm, I'm like the person that if you give me back five hours, I will find a way to fill it with work. But it's just I didn't enjoy, I didn't enjoy it. And it was scary, and I thought, like, well, this is gonna be interesting. Like, I wasn't gonna walk away from it, but I was like, how do I find a way to reshape this so that I'm having fun doing it and that I like it? So that was like, that was an interesting moment. And then of course it was resolved by the pandemic, upon which I was no longer legally allowed to operate my spaces. And so, you know, the company became as we built it, became undone over the course of a year and a half. Um, but it has led to like decisions I'll make about the future in work. Like I would not build a venture scale company again with a lot of employees. I know that that's not something I would enjoy doing. But you know, in another moment, when we were dealing with my husband's battle, there were so many moments where I was like, I can't, I can't do this for another day. Like I'm too tired, and there's no hope. And in those moments, it was always conversations with people that got me through it. You know, it's uh I remember one conversation in particular. We were years into this battle, and we had thought the DOJ investigation was over because at one point the DOJ had seized all of our assets and they held on to them for two years, but then they gave them back. And so I kind of thought that had been the end of the DOJ investigation. We were still fighting Amazon in civil court, but a year after the DOJ gave us back the money, we learned that the DOJ was entering the guilty pleas of four men who said that they had helped my husband commit this crime against Amazon. And I remember at that moment thinking, oh my God, like not only is this not almost over, it's just beginning in some ways. And I was at an airport. I had been speaking at an event in Spokane, Washington, and I was flying home to Ohio, and I remember sitting there and I just started crying. And I called uh my husband's lawyer, who's a friend of mine too, and I said, Should we have not thought? Because what's the point? And my husband and then my lawyer said, you know, Amy, what what the government wanted from Carl was to plead guilty to something he didn't do and point the finger at someone else. And your husband is not capable of doing that. He does not have that bone in his body. So you never had any choice but to fight, and we will keep fighting. He's like, you take a break and we'll keep fighting. Yeah, but that was that was hard. That was so hard.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

You've all been through so much.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yes, we have.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I mean, I've I've been reading about everything that you've been through because I know you know we've not been in touch in many years, but it's just mind blowing what you walk through with your family.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

It I mean, it really, it really is. Like you get it's amazing what you can get used to. It is amazing what you get used to because we are still fighting Amazon in civil court, and we're in the seventh year, which has been my youngest daughter's entire life. Like I've had to parent through all of this. Um but it is outrageous and it is an outrage, and like someone should should call the ball and end it, and that bothers me all the time. But one of the interesting things from this is our kids know a lot about what's happened because it's their life too. Like they lost their home, they lost their community, they lost their school, they have watched us struggle, and they have lived with uh an amount of uncertainty that we never envisioned our children would be raised with. And they've seen a lot of pain and a lot of love and a lot of joy. But one of the interesting things about my children is the simple questions they ask. Like, mommy, if Amazon thought daddy did something wrong, why wouldn't they just ask him? Great question, right? Because that's not how legal battles are fought. Or like, why won't they, you know, even to this day, like, why won't they talk to you? Do they not have the courage? Are they not brave? My answer to that is that's I guess so, right? Because people are willing to do very bad things on behalf of, you know, winning on behalf of trying to be right when they know they're wrong. But it's really interesting lessons for my kids to learn. Uh so there's that.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And and I think you you touched on this idea of winning earlier, like win or lose, fail or succeed. And that we get so driven, you know, by those things and even these impossible narratives in our heads around this idea of achieve this or fail this, you know, success or failure, win or lose. And it isn't binary, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

No, it's not. And I think it's one of the problems in general with the law. If the law is meant to be a quest for the truth, like that's not what this is, it's not what my family has been through.

unknown 28:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Like it's just a pummeling. And you would think at some point someone would say, okay, enough, but that's not the case. And I think you do have to realize, like, it's really interesting, confirmation bias is a very real thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Like for all of us. You know, you decide something's right, you learn some facts, you think this is how things go, and then you make a decision, and then you are gonna, you are gonna do everything you can to fit your decision into the truth. Um, and we all, I think, have to back up some and say, well, maybe this is true, maybe this isn't. Like I think that a lot about politics because my family story has been like very politicized in some ways, which is interesting because it's it's really about like a bunch of corporate lawyers leveraging relationships to go after a family, which I don't think is Democrat or Republican. But the DOJ is very political, so there's lots of, you know, like and it's but it's been interesting for me because I think I had a very one-sided view of what was right in politics and what was wrong, and identified with one party and would say everything the other party did was wrong. And over the past many years, I've realized like we're right and wrong about some things, like all of us, right? There's no one right answer, there's no one right party, there's no one right thing in the world. Like you have to kind of assess the situation around everything and be willing to change your opinion based on facts as you learn them and and how the world is changing. And if we could all do that, we would be in a much better place.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Oh, I, you know, I a hundred percent agree with you. And what you said about confirmation bias is just spot on. I mean, I could give you a hundred examples just in my own life and my marriage, and I'm married to an attorney who we, you know, we've had to learn just even in our own relationship, this idea of what is true and what is false. Yeah. And, you know, and how we see the world. And, you know, how do you, you know, as a as a person, as a society, as, you know, you we see this in organizations as well, that, you know, we have our perspective and our view of the world and how we see things as true or false. And a lot of times we stay on our own island and we seek information to confirm those things. And how do we know if it's false? How do we know if we're biased if we're not validating that in some way? And that's you see it, you know, you see it all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, completely. And I just wish we would talk about it more, especially around politics, because like we we are prevented from coming together as community to solve problems as community because we're just not even willing to like see the other side or see what does connect us rather than hold on to what drives us apart.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I agree. I mean, I gotta be honest, like I found myself a few times in years past being you know, on my side and not willing to hear. And I saw how it harmed me. Um it harmed me in ways because I felt justified in my anger and almost a little bit of rage and how I was looking at things. And it drove me. It drove me, it it, you know, it I was not feeling good about myself in that moment. It wasn't until I softened a little bit and started to see things from a different perspective that I started shifting a little.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, it takes a lot of it takes a lot to do that, but I think it does create a much better place to live in.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Yeah. Um the other thing that I wanted to make sure to bring back forward, you you touched on pivoting, you touched on reinventing yourself. I feel like that's happened a number of times for you. And, you know, how you've been able to do that, you know, even your own family. If you think about the pivoting and the re reinventing family and then you and your professional career, you've done that a number of times. I know our listeners would love to hear a little about that.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I think the reason I've been able to pivot so many times is because I two things. Like, A, like I'm just not going to give up. So it's just like I'm not, like, I don't, I won't give up. But I then think the other thing is that I'm willing to look at the world around me as it exists rather than as I wish it exists, and said, where do I fit in? How do I fit in? What can I do? How can I best be of service? How can I make money? How can I like create the uh work-life scenario that I need and then just figure it out from there? I like even right now, I am, you know, I have my startup, the Riveter, which is re-envisioned, not what I built originally. We no longer have co-working spaces, we have a digital community and a newsletter. I I just built what I had with the audience I had and served them how they needed to be served. And then I also am now doing legal strategy consulting, which I had never anticipated doing again, but it's a way for me to be of service, it's a way to make money. I'm good at it. Um, and it gives me the flexibility I need, right? Like there's all these, you just kind of keep keep figuring out what works for you and how you can serve people and then just doing it, right? Instead of thinking about it, just doing it. And a lot of it's been driven by necessity. I mean, we have had to spend an inordinate amount of money on lawyers. And um, so it's always been a uh part of it's always been like, what can you do to stay alive and keep paying and keep fighting? Um, but I'm glad that I have that backbone in me now. Like I'm never worried, will I be able to figure it out? Because I've proven to myself over and again that I can. Uh and one thing that I found to be really interesting is that people will come along with you for the journey, right? Like they, they people, you know, like when as you continually reinvent or build or layer on to what you're doing and who you are, circle back, right? Like with the legal stuff, people are there for it, you know, people who are rooting you on, and everybody else, like, fuck them. I just like who can't like it doesn't matter. Like at the end of the day, 100%. There are a lot of people, you know, I have a very large social media following, and there are some people who follow me because they really dislike me and they let me know it all the time. And I'm like, okay. Like, I can't imagine following someone to tell them that you don't like them. Like that is a very sad thing to do. But like, okay, I don't, whatever. Like, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Such important learnings there. The other thing I've heard you touch on a number of times throughout our conversation was around, you said this even when you were talking about when you started The Riveter and this realization that you had about being a leader. You know, there's these things that we're good at that, and maybe probably if we talked to the people that reported you, they would say something completely different. That's my guess that you were an amazing leader, but maybe you didn't like it. So there's these things that we're good at that we do, that we love and give us energy. And then there's these things that we're doing that just suck the life out of out of us, right? So for me, it was sales with that realization I had that like I'm actually pretty good at sales, but I I hate it. I actually really hate it. Um, and then having the courage and the tenacity to stop doing that and to find the thing that it is that fills your cup. And you've done that. You've done that so many times in your life. And so many people stay in jobs and marriages and whatever those things are for so long, miserable, because they can't take it. You said, you know, just do that thing. And I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah. Yeah. It is um, I sometimes think like, what if I had stayed in my career as a lawyer and never left and started the Riveter? Like, would I have if if I'd done that, would I have then been able to fight the fight that I fought for my husband? And I don't know if I would have because I learned so much even in the two and a half years of the Riveter, of just kind of like, try, try, try, innovate, innovate. Like, try again, figure it out. Like you've got to go, you can't get off this train. And um that I think that like those lessons allowed me to just dive in to the hardest things I had to figure out and fight in life. But you you get you get one ride one time through this, right? And when you look back, are you going to be glad for the years you played it safe and were miserable? Or would you rather be someone who kind of like at least like got in the arena, even if you struck out like you hopped in and you you took a swing and you tried to figure it out? Like, I'd rather be that person. It's more interesting, it's far more interesting. It is a scarier and riskier life, but it is far more interesting than the person who stays at the job in the office park that they hate or in the marriage that they hate. Like that, that's hard, that's hard. That's sad.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

I totally agree. I mean, I think about that a lot. Yeah. And I am a person too that is comfortable pivoting and have my entire life and have been willing to start things new. And it's part of what drew me into entrepreneurial organizations because I love that. I like building things from the ground. I like ideating and building. And I also have had moments in my life where fear of failure has held me back. And I think it does for many people that we stay stuck. And and pretty sure at the end of my life, I'm not gonna look back and wished I would have worked more hours or made more money. Or, you know, it's it's gonna be that I wished I would have done more of the things that I really wanted to be able to do and spend time with the people that I love. And that's community and family and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Hunter S. Thompson has this quote that I think about all the time. It's very simple. It's two sentences. It's like, buy the ticket, take the ride. And like, why not? Why not? Like buy the ticket, take the ride. And I try to instill that, like in that thinking and kind of most of the decisions that I make. Uh, because yeah, if you don't say yes and give it a try, you'll just never know. And I think not knowing is harder.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yeah, and and also like even knowing the journey is sometimes in the failure itself.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

That we learn so much. I mean, I think about that for myself and the times that I failed, you know, even in my life and my in my recovery journey and how I made that. It's like I learned so much through the failure. It wasn't even the new thing that I got to. It was like in that messy middle of failure, I learned so much.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yes, yes, right. And it's like, what who would you be if you didn't have those learnings? You wouldn't be as strong, you wouldn't be able to do what you do now, right? And and to build, to build things and to begin again. Um, and so it goes back to that childhood lesson, like that we teach kids. Like, you're gonna learn in the failure. So do we, as adults, so do we, until the day we die. Like that's the other thing. One of the things that's been really interesting as I age, I'm 46 now, is um I've I've done a lot of work with AARP through the riveter, and I I know I know a lot of women in their 60s and 70s and 80s. And the most interesting women are the women who are constantly thinking and still curious into those, into those later decades. And they're they aren't stopping. They're traveling to new places, they're still working, they're you know, doing interesting things, and it's truly what keeps you alive. Like there as like study after study shows that, right? Like what keeps you alive is your ability to, in decision, to keep thinking and challenging yourself. And that involves taking risks.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

100%. And we see people doing that well into their 70s and 80s, reinventing, doing new things. I know when I went through my coach training program, I was blown away at how many people were going through the Hudson Institute in their 70s and 80s after long careers in the law, or you know, completely different areas, and they're they're deciding to pivot. And that we can do that at any point in our life, make those pivots and transitions.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

And I think that's really important to to think about. You can change at any moment, like on any random Tuesday, whether you are 26 or 84, you can make a decision that tomorrow will not be the same as today. And I and I know that you might have a million things stacked against you, like I have been there, but like you can still make a decision. And it doesn't mean on the next day you'll have enough whatever, but you can have a mindset shift that says, today I will do this differently, today I will try this, today I will email this person, today I will sign up for this online webinar, today I will drive to this little town I've never seen to just do the thing. Because while we and the thing I think about all the time is like we see people in their 80s doing these remarkable things, like climbing Mount Everest or starting a new company. We also see people in their 60s who have called the ball and they're done and they're getting ready to die. Like, and the simple difference is a decision and a mindset, right? It isn't wealth, it isn't education, it's just that decision.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

You know, and the things that hold us back. You know, you touched on fear and fear of failure, but also shame. Being on that shame spiral starts to create narratives around I can't do this or I should have done that. And then we get even stuck in that.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah. And I think I th I really had to like dig into the shame spiral idea when my husband was accused of a crime, because that is not a small thing. It was like a federal crime, and it was Amazon doing the accusing. And I knew he'd done nothing wrong, but the world will often just believe the first thing they hear. And for me, I had to dig into these stories of people who came back from something like this. Like, is it possible? And I read every story, and I was so grateful for the people who are willing to share those stories publicly. You look at, like, you know, here's an example, like Robert Downey Jr., right, who went to prison or jail, you know, over issues he faced with his addiction. And he came back and became one of the biggest movie stars in the world, right? When it could have just been over for him. Or like, you know, Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to the FBI. And she came out and she was not quiet and she was not apologetic. And she's like, fuck this, I'm building a bigger company. And she did, right? And so it's this idea like anytime you think it's over for you, it does not have to be. Like you can pull yourself out of whatever shame you feel because somebody who who you could think should have felt tons more shame than you do, has stood up, looked in the mirror, and said, whatever, I'm just gonna keep going. And they've done it, and you can do it too. And the other thing that I think is really interesting is you know, when we when we think about shame, yes, there's inner shame, but shame is largely a fear of what others think of us.

unknown 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Right. People don't think of you that often. It's like, I mean, it's so true. No one is sitting around thinking about you all day, every day.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Like they're they're living their lives, and maybe you pop into their mind every once in a while, but like they're mostly not thinking about you. They mostly don't care about you. Like it's you are the star of your of your movie. 100%. Act accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yeah, it's so true. And I think what you said earlier about the haters is true. Like, fuck the haters, you know, if we're if we're using F word on this episode, I'm A OK with that. I'll put it as an explicit on the when I re when I release it. But it is so true. And that if we're only listening to that one hater out of the thousands of people, and we're letting that one hater's voice drive a narrative that's leading us to shame, it's like, why do we do that? And you're right, no one else is thinking about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah. I don't know. I remember I had this moment early on with my husband, someone That I had known, like in the female founder community in Seattle after it be after the allegations against my husband became public and after I started speaking out, she accidentally texted me when she meant to text a friend and said, like, obviously her husband's guilty. She should just shut up and like try to survive it, or something like that. And I wrote back and I'm like, I don't think you meant to send this to me. And she like doubled down. She's like, I didn't, but I really believe this. And I was like, okay. And then just like stopped the conversation. But I remember being actually very grateful that I had been sent that text because it was, you know, it was like being privy to a conversation I wasn't supposed to hear, bad mouthing me. And I was like, okay, like that's what people will say. Okay. Like if that's what's going to be the worst of it, fine. I can deal with that. I don't care. Like, who is this person to me? Absolutely no one. It doesn't matter. I'm just going to keep going. And it felt actually very freeing. So I was like, okay, that's it. And the people that loved me and loved my husband, like they showed up like rock stars for years. Even when I was not fun, when it was not great to be around me, they just, they were there. And that's that's who you should care about.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah, I that story really resonates for me. I've been through a number of personal crises myself and my family and my life. And I remember like just being messy in those, you know, there's a period of about eight years that stand out for me where I was just, I was not myself. I was messy. I was um, you know, looking back, it's like, geez, I felt bad for the people in my life. But honestly, you do learn a lot about your who who's in your circle and who is not. And people's true colors do come out during those moments. And that was learning for me. It was like, wow, I never would have seen that had I not been in that. And my circle did get smaller, but it was richer. And what I took out of that is like, I want to keep that. I don't need a big circle. I need this, and I want to know who my people are and I want them to be like-minded and on my team.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

I am exactly the same way. I'm sorry you had to go for that through that. And like, how much richer is your life knowing that the smaller group of people you have around you do care for you and you care for them back. And the other thing I'll say is I like I have stood in that place where I'm like, oh my God, I'm such like a mess. I must be so exhausting for people. But you know what? I realize about myself, the people I love the most, they're often very messy too, because these are the people who are trying, who are going out and trying new things and taking big swings and messing up, right? And like I'd much rather be friends with those people because it's so much more interesting.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

100%. And me being messy makes it okay for somebody else to be messy. And that if somebody else is turned off by that, I don't care about, you know, F them. You know, I don't care about those people anyway. Um, and we have to be messy. That's the only way to get to the other side is to, it goes back to what you said about uh the courage to be vulnerable and to share your pain and when you're going through it. And when we do that, when we arrive messy and vulnerable, then you know, we my friend Suzanne labels that as like emotional stew. When we do that, we create a space for other people to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

100%. Like I will tell you when I started talking about navigating these criminal allegations, the amount of people that reached out to me on social media, these strangers just going through hell all alone. And the fact if I could be a sounding board for one person. I mean, I have so many friends who have like been part of the white-collar world at this point, and how alone they felt or I felt. And then they were, we were able to build these really strong connections that can be life-saving. And if I hadn't spoken up, maybe they didn't feel like they could do the same. Listen, I remember as a female founder when I was like, what am I doing? There were so many female founders that reached out to me, that were there for me, that mentored me, that helped me navigate the hard parts and were so kind to me. And I wouldn't have made it without them. Right. And so it's always whether you're the person setting out the bridge or the person walking over it too because you need to, like both of those things only happen through being open about all of it.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

100%. Finding your people, you know, it's like to me, this idea of community, you can have it in so many circles. Like I have my coaching community, I have my AA community, I have my friendship community, I have my professional community, and that we can find that new, you know, it's like we're not on this island alone, suffering in this thing. And like when my kids were having a mental health crisis, I found people. I found other parents out there that were navigating the same journey as me because I felt lost. Like I had no idea what I was doing. And you can find that, and then we get this idea that we're here by ourselves and we're not.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah. And one thing that's amazing too, the fact that you went out and found community to help navigate something that you might have felt ashamed about. Like, because I know in my problem, like I've learned to step out of this, but when my kids are something's wrong, I feel like am I doing it wrong, right? Which you're not as a parent, right? Like we're ha we're all living a human experience. And I know that your kids are deeply loved. And it's like, but when as your kids grow, the measure of love that they will understand they received from you because you were willing to take risks and seek help and connect over these very hard things to save them. Like, how powerful is that?

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah. And I mean, we could probably have a whole episode just on parent shame. No problem. Holy hell. That is, you know, I think regardless, every parent on earth has it. And, you know, that can that can keep you, you can stay stuck in that and not get into the solution alone. So I totally agree with that. So I'm thinking about like who you are today and all the amazing things that you're doing today. What are things that stand out for you that you want to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

I think the thing that stands out for me today about myself is that I'm really proud that I have become someone who can experience the duality of joy and pain, of terror and growth, of failure and success. I understand that all of those things can live in a single hour. And I let myself because that's the only way I can experience life. I could let the really bad and hard things take over, or I could be someone who's like, okay, we have to do these together. Like I remember the first time I heard myself laugh after after the FBI showed up at our door. And it took like a it took like a year. And I was with my kids, and we were at a beach because we had to sell our house to pay lawyers, and we were living with my husband's family, all six of us. I mean, it was wild. But we were at a beach, and I remember playing with my kids and hearing myself laugh, and I was almost like, who was that? Because I have a very like big laugh when I laugh, and I'm feeling joy. And then I thought, you know what? It's just gonna be both. It's gonna be both of these things. And there, you know, I have not been perfect in experiencing that, and I've gone down these very dark canyons that have been hard to pull myself out of. But I think it's I'm so proud of myself for being someone who has the ability to hold both of those things.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

That's such a beautiful message. This idea of, you know, maybe it's dialectical, you know, the two polar opposite things can be true at the same time. And there's so much beauty in that because we can be stuck in the grief and the pain and the anger and all that kind of stuff, and also be experiencing joy and love and hope at the exact same time that we're capable of that.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah. And not only are we capable of it, we must embrace that to really kind of live the full human experience. My one of my best friends, um, Samantha Edis, uh, she has this amazing viewpoint where she never says, I'm having a bad day, because she might be having a bad five minutes or a bad hour, but everything could turn around in the next moment. And so she won't define the day, which I think is so it might sound so cheesy, but it's so important, right? Like you can't just say this, this exists as this, I classify this in this bucket. Like you have to just be open to whatever may come.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

And 100%.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah. And the piece I'm taking from that message is the power of perspective. And then if we can fully realize that in the moment, we can restart it. Even our mindset. You've talked a lot about those mindset shifts that you've made along your journey. And that if we can see those things, then it changes our perspective of that human experience, whatever that human experience is.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

And I'll take it a step further. I saw this kind of floating around social media a year and a half ago, maybe, where it was talking about how like the most successful entrepreneurs are somewhat delusional. They're kind of just like they have this delusional belief that something may work out. And I realized like I often, time and again, have just decided to be completely delusional with the possibility of like potentially winning something. Like, okay, like I'll just give it a shot. And if I wasn't willing to accept the possibility of winning in a completely delusional capacity, I would lose. And I just think you really have to be like, okay, why not give it a shot?

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Yeah. Um, and having worked with so many founders, I agree, I agree with that. And that, you know, it's why so many books have been written on this idea of the secret, or you know, that we can just set our minds to do something. And even if we fully don't believe it's possible, we can act as if, like, just do the thing, throw the noodle on the wall. Why the hell not? And if fear is not there, and you know, in the absence of fear, what is possible in your life?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah. Are there any other messages or an insight or hope that you'd like our listeners to carry away from your story as we're nearing the end of our time?

SPEAKER_01 53:56

I think a big one, which is very specific to my story, is that, you know, whenever we are told information, we should ask questions. Like we so often accept the first narrative that we're told about something, and I have learned not to do that. And that it's very dangerous to do that. And the fact that so many people have done that, like, you know, kind of like it's especially like when it came to my family, has been it's it's hard, right? Like it's a it's a lot to overcome for people. And then I think also just the idea that like you have to try, you have to step into the arena. There's not much of a life if you don't. And so it is scary and you have to be brave, but it's also incredibly amazing. And so we should give it a try.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

I love what you said about stepping into the arena and how important that is, and this idea of just critical thinking and being willing to question what's right in front of you and not take it for face value. And so many of us just don't do that, you know, and the and the message of hope that you're sending, and also, I can only imagine for your kids the impact that that has had on your just raising amazing humans that are willing to challenge what they're seeing in front of them and to fight for, you know, stepping into the arena and the willingness to fight for the people you love and stand up for the things that you believe in.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. I mean, I could just go on and on. We, you know, I know I accidentally scheduled two hours. I could have easily had a two-hour episode with you, you know, where this emotional neighborhood and this idea of walking through your journey and your own. I think you brought in the neighborhood metaphor a few times, and it just means so much to me that you were willing to spend this time with me today. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Thank you so much. It feels like a coaching session in a lot of ways. I mean, it's just like because you're walking you're you're asking questions like I don't think about a lot, but that really define how I'm living and the choices I'm making, and I should reflect on them more. I think none of us do that enough. And so it was really wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

And thank you for being with us today.

unknown 56:10

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Thank you for joining us today. As you head back in your day, we invite you to notice what's happening in your own neighborhood, at work, at home, or inside yourself. Change often starts close to home. And sometimes the smallest shift in awareness can create the biggest ripple. If something in today's conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to carry it forward and share it with someone else who might need it too. And if you're finding value in these conversations, it would make a lot of sense if you subscribed and left a review. We're just getting started, and your support really helps us grow the community. Until next time, take care of yourself and each other.