Why Your Wellness Practices Aren’t Working with Liz Bucar

We’re doing all the things.

Working out. Journaling. Meditating. Trying to take care of ourselves in a world that feels like a lot.

So why does it still feel like it’s not working?

In this conversation, I sit down with Liz Bucar– professor, writer, and author of Beyond Wellness– to unpack what’s really going on beneath the surface of modern wellness.

We talk about:

•  The difference between feeling better and actually changing your life
•  How wellness became something we consume instead of something that shapes us 
•  Why intention, depth, and community matter more than doing everything perfectly 
•  The role movement can play- not just in your body, but in how you live 
•  What it looks like to carry your practices forward, instead of leaving them behind 

This is a conversation about choosing practices that don’t just comfort you, but change you.

Because if nothing shifts outside of the hour you spend taking care of yourself…what are we really doing?

About Liz: 

LIZ BUCAR is a religious ethicist and professor of religion at
Northeastern University, as well as a certified intenSati and Kripalu
yoga instructor. Her popular writing has appeared in The Atlantic, the
Los Angeles Times, Teen Vogue, and The Wall Street Journal, and she is
the author of four books, including the award-winning Stealing My
Religion and Pious Fashion. She lives in Brookline, Massachusetts. For
more about how religion shapes us all, even if we don't believe,
subscribe to Liz’s newsletter at LizBucar.com.

Connect with Liz
Instagram: @LizBucar | TikTok: @LizBucar | Substack: Religion, Reimagined

Pre-order Beyond Wellness today!

Attend our workshop on May 2nd!!

Further Forward: Honest Conversations on the Art of Becoming, is hosted by Ashley Mitchell. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Too fun.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the Further Forward Podcast. Thank you. Oh, it's always fun to do things with you. So thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. Same, same. Um, so glad you're here. We're gonna go right into it because I don't feel like we need to do a whole huge thing. I start the podcast the same every episode. Who are you and how are you? Who am I and how?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

These are big questions for like a humanities professor.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I'm I'm ready to hear.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

So I'm Liz Bucar. I so I am like my daytime, like my job hat is a professor of religion at Northeastern University, but I'm also an author, which I have to say, I'm on my fifth book, and I just kind of have leaned into that like title and role of multiple books. Like that's not I, you know, my it wasn't until my like two books ago that one of my editors said, You're such a good writer. And I was like, I'm I'm a writer. She's like, this is like your fourth book. What are you talking about? So I'm a writer. Um, and I have a new book about um kind of wellness, kind of religion, spirituality. It's kind of like neither one of those things either, but sort of like finding a sense of like, what is going on in the world? Wellness culture has failed me, has failed midlife women. What do I know from religious studies and my teaching and research that could be helpful, even though I myself am not a religious person, no religious affiliation, I'm not trying to comfort anybody. So that is like the stuff that I'm thinking about and writing about in my book, which is coming out soon, but as well on my Substack and my my um, I'm also a content creator. I'm okay saying that. Um on Instagram, so I do a lot of stuff on Instagram too. Um yeah. So don't follow me unless you want lots of content because I'm always posting on there. So it's like very different from my day job. So that's who I'm how am I? Well, I mean, I'm I'm hanging in there. I mean, there's a lot going on right now, right? Um, personally, a lot going on in the household because my kid is applying, she's a senior in high school, applying to college. This is the month where they get rejected, get in Ivy Day. It's just a lot. It's a whole lot of feelings. Whole lot. So I am regulating the emotions of a 17-year-old. And somehow my partner, he's like, Yeah, I feel for her, but I don't feel it with her. And I feel interesting. I feel it all. Um, so that's been a lot. And then the world, I mean, so I don't actually quite don't know this about me. I, my doctoral research, when I was in grad school, I did research in Iran. So I've spent a lot of time in Iran. Oh. What is happening in Iran? I mean, it's not personal to me in the way that's personal to Iranians, but like I am really devastated by what's happening in Iran and and the sort of threats of like what this week, whenever there's threat of like annihilating Taylor civilization, right? Um, which is such a such a it's such a it's such a it's like a proud culture, it's like a historically deep culture. It's like I just uh so I hate all that. Um but I'm but I'm happy to be here with you. So I'm hanging in there.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I'm hanging in there. I feel like that's the that's always the the toggling of there's there's so much to be grateful for. There can be joy in the moment, but there can also be stuff that's incredibly upsetting or that makes us anxious or that, you know, is affecting the people that we love. It's it's this is part of why this podcast needed to exist because how do you how do you exist in all of the things that you are and that you hold? And it's just, you know, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Without doing the thing that I know that you neither one of us want people to do, which is just to withdraw from it. Right. Right. Go into your like spiritual bypassing, whatever you want to call it, like tuning out. Um, but that doesn't, that's not actually good for you, but also that doesn't help us like rebuild, like rebuild. So it's hard. It's a hard balance, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I think it's too just as as women, as mothers, you kind of get used to perhaps fixing and intervening. And when there are problems that you cannot fix, that you personally cannot go in and change, you can't save anybody. It can definitely feel like, well, I'm just not gonna do anything because I don't know what to do. I don't know how to be useful or, you know, so I'm just gonna make my avocado toast and like hide.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Uh and I don't think I realized I couldn't fix everything until COVID, actually. I think I was like, I can fix all these things, but like COVID was that moment where I was like, I really cannot, like, I cannot like it's done. I mean, I still like I told you the story, but so it's April, right? So April Fool's Day, my kid pranked me. I didn't realize the time, from I got a DM DM in the middle of the day, which was just like a piece of paper, which was like an ad drop form saying, I'm dropping AP physics. No, and it's signed by her and her teacher. And I went up like, whoa. And so I went into write, like, if she's dropping AP physics that she has an A in, it's because she's just completely spiraling about this college thing and nothing matters anymore. Like I went to all of what I'm like, I'm gonna call the therapist. I'm gonna like, I like like an hour later, she's like, April fools, mom. And I was like, already had fixed the problem 25 or slide two, right? So that's that's really like one of my demons, right? Like trying to control and fix. Um you just can't.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

It's a lesson I learned much later in my life than you have learned. So good for you. Yeah. Well, if I give myself credit for anything, it is definitely that I am a people watcher, right? And I'm a I'm a deep listener. So when you share your story with me, I take it in. And sometimes I go too far and internalize other people's stuff, but I will carry that piece of information forever of like, you can't fix everything. Here's what you do.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

I called it dad. I was like, when you see this text, don't get angry. We're not gonna leave with anger. We're gonna like, we hear you, let's solve this together, let's talk about it tonight. Tell us what's going on. Like, yeah, so you managed anyway.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

So, like it's you're you're parenting like a millennial. I'm proud of you. We're not gonna lead with anger, we're gonna talk about it. We're that's very millennial of you. It must be because I'm incredibly online. So I know, see. Yes, I love it. Okay, so I have to ask, I've never asked any of these questions. So for people listening, I'm learning alongside of you. Why religion if you are not religious?

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Yeah, uh, by mistake. I mean, that's how my entire life that everything I do is mistake. Yeah. I'm not, I mean, like, yes, I'm baptized Catholic. I grew up kind of Protestant at Congregationalist Church. My mother is more religious, but I, as an adult, as a young adult, was never religious. But I I think so I first got into religion, like is an intellectual political thing, because I was working in DC after college. I was doing human rights work, nonprofit work, and I was interested in reproductive health issues. So access to contraception and safe motherhood and abortion in Latin America. Turns out the Catholic Church is important to engage. And so I went to work for an organization called Catholics for Choice, which is a pro-choice, pro-contraception Catholic organization. And I was like, whoa, like religion isn't just the problem here, religion is part of the solution. People are already using these religious ideas and traditions. So instead of talking about insolment, they're talking about the Catholic idea of safe motherhood or responsible parenting or bodily integrity. Um, so I that's like my my intellectual into it, um, and into it. And then I was applying to grad school and I was like, hey, I'm like interested in this like legal, human rights, social justice, religion thing. So I applied to three kinds of meta, uh, three kinds of graduate school, PhD religion, AD's law degrees, and public health degrees. Applied to 18 schools. Here we go. Um, and then like I was sitting there with everything in front of me, and like, I'm just really interested in religion. So I'm like, I'm just gonna go to religion and see what start there and see what wow. And so I deferred law school. My intention was just to do like a little bit of like like a master's and then go to law school. Um, and I started at the University of Chicago and I deferred law school there. And a year end, they're like, great, you're coming next year to law school. And I was like, I'm not. Like, this is I'm I'm kind of hooked. Like, there's so much here. I just I'm gonna stay for the PhD. So a little bit by mistake, right? But my evolution has been from religion is a problem that needs to be solved to religion is a resource that you can use for the social justice things I care about. In fact, you have to understand it if you want to advocate for a lot of stuff, to where I am now, which is a really much more uncomfortable space. I mean, you sort of say when we were filming you and I at Down Under, I was like, well, you're probably more comfortable with spirituality than I am as a religion professor.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Like, I'm yeah, you did say that.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

You didn't say that. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this sort of more personal narrative of it, but I've kind of come to a point now where I've realized, you know, I'm in my 50s. I spent most of my career studying religion, teaching about religion of other people, like as an anthropologist. And it has rubbed off on me. It has affected the way I think about ethics, how I want to be, what a full human life is like, how I think about birth and death and dying. Um, not so much parenting, I guess that's millennials, but maybe there's some parenting. And I just, so I see, I still have no religious affiliation, but I've come to see that religion is my primary conversation partner. Like it's like philosophy on steroids. Um I learned from religious communities and traditions in ways that really change and remake me. Um, and so that the the new work is more in that space where I'm trying to lean into all right, I'm not I'm on religious affiliation, I don't belong, you know, I'm not a Presbyterian or a Jew or a Muslim or whatever. I don't belong in a box. But most people would call me spiritual or I'm like a seeker in some way, which is uncomfortable. I was in the New York Times a couple weeks ago being quoted as a public theologian for non-religious affiliated people, which again is a really kind of uncomfortable category for me, but that's where I am. But that's been an evolution. So the answer to your question, why religion? Kind of by mistake. Um and then why religion is also like why I study religion, the answer to that question has changed through my career and I think through my life, because the two things have affected each other.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

When you are teaching at Northeastern, what what what do you hope your students get out of your classes? What are you teaching them? And are you also teaching um young people who don't have a religious affiliation, or is it a very mixed group?

SPEAKER_03 10:59

It's a mixed group. I'd say the majority of my students would fall into the category of not having religious affiliation, maybe being, maybe they'd call themselves spiritual not religious, but probably fall into the non-cat N N-O-N-E, like the no-religion category. Um, so what I'm trying to teach, it's a lot of like religious literacy at Northeastern. So like my most popular class is a class about sexual ethics. And partly they walk in the class, like, oh great, it's about sex. I care about sex. You know, and I get some requirements, you know, oh, it's an ethics requirement out of the way. And so they're like, this is gonna be fun. I hear, I hear Liz Bucar is a, I hear Professor Bukar is a fun teacher or whatever. And they're like, but religion is anything to do with me. And they, and in fact, the first, the first like essays that they write, or the first like class discussions we have, I ask them to talk about position, they're sort of like religion, like how was religion part of their upbringing. And many of them are like, no, like my mom's religious, but it's not important for me. And I'm like, by the end of this class, I want you to see how religion has affected your life.

unknown 12:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

So like the last thing they do in that class is they do a piece where they analyze a piece of pulp culture, like a piece of music, actually. I want you to see now that you've been through this class, how much of Beyoncé's song is actually either purity culture or responding to purity culture. Some of this, you know, evangelical, like sort of like underlying logic about women's bodies, black bodies, whatever, women's bodies, some of that is religious. And so you didn't even know it was affecting you. So that's a big part of it. Is like I want you to see how you how it is affecting your life, like in this class on sexual ethics, like how it's affecting healthcare and on these issues, right? How it's affecting your data life, right? So I, you know, I'll have like uh last time I taught a lesbian stand up and like week three issues. Like, I didn't realize that I was like falling into these like categories of like their norms and lesbian dating life, and it's all this evangelical purity culture stuff. I was like, mm-hmm. Wow. Like I want you to see that. So that's a big part of it. And the other part of it is maybe it's three parts. So is that part? Then I want them to like see religious difference is like not scary. Like the I don't want them to think like, oh, Islam is like foreign and bad and like it treats its women badly. I want them to see that there are really interesting values and norms within Islam around sex and ethics and gender that they hadn't maybe been exposed to that might again help their own thinking. And then the third piece, like I'm thinking of this other class I'm teaching, uh, which is called selling spirituality, but it's really the mindfulness killjoy class. I just kind of I want to mess with them a little bit. Like I want to make them comfortable. I want them to, I want them to come in and be like, yes, I love crystals and saging and mindfulness and all that woo-hoo. And I want them to be like, I want you to see how this is not as uncomplicated as you think. It's implicated in, you know, capitalism. You don't like capitalism, it's implicated in that. It's got all these structures of injustice, white supremacy is everywhere. And also religion is everywhere, but you're being you're consuming and being sold a very sort of watered down version. So that's the kind of stuff I do in my class. Like I full range of stuff. It's the same kind of stuff I do in my writing and I try to do in my content creation too.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Oh my goodness. Well, the first thing I guess is if if I if we go back to the mindfulness piece, the third piece you just mentioned, as a springboard to go forward into the new book and all of your research around that and how this came to be, you know. I I as a person who yeah, I'm one of those people who would say spiritual but not religious, even though I grew up going to church and as a kid had the fondest memories of Sunday school, of dressing up, of singing in the choir, of standing up and reading in front of the church, like all of the really good memories. Luckily, yeah, because I know that also for the grown-ups in my life, church was not always that. And it could be very complicated, uh, depending on who the pastor was, and just lots of stuff around sex and money and and deceit. And there's I know that my experience is just mine. Um so then when I spring forward, I don't go to church now, um, but I do pray and I feel um I feel something akin to prayer when I'm in meditation or even when I'm in nature, not like walking my dog, but like if I'm in a national park or I'm standing next to the Redwoods, there's something that feels different. So then that makes me think, okay, so if I am lighting incense or I'm carrying a crystal, who who gives a fuck, right? Like tell me why I should give a fuck for lack of a better. Like, what are we missing?

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah. So it's interesting because the last book I wrote was gonna was about kind of be wanting you to feel a little bit bad about lighting the in, like light burning the sage, right? It was about culture, and religion. I wanted people to see how like when you do this stuff, sometimes you're implicated in problematic things that you might not want to be, right? So we talk about just yoga, right? The yoga industry, the yoga, just yoga industry in general has machined. Uh, you know, whether that's studios or apparel or whatever, you know, there are some spaces are really spaces of um, not the place that we met. Um, and actually, that's why I actually um it's one of things I really laid that down under, but there are a lot of yoga studios that are spaces of whiteness, where only whiteness, right? And only a certain set type of body teaches. So able-bodied, white, female, thin, whatever. Just as an example. I want people in the last book, I wanted people to be like, oh, like maybe that's you're gonna find a different kind of studio or different way to practice. I wanted to see how their entitlement and their privilege they were basically people like me, right? So white women were um benefiting from some of these structures of injustice that they don't like, but like they were benefiting from them in their sort of spiritual practices and their wellness practices. But the new book is less about like yucking your yum, I like to say. That's a family. And more about, all right, I get maybe that's a little problematic, but now what do I do? And I'm so the answer to a question like why is it a problem that you're doing that? Like, there are like social structural reasons why that might be problematic, but also like I think it could work better for you if you knew why you were doing it and what it was supposed to do for you, right? And that kind of is a nice segue into like what we're trying to do together and like what we're gonna do together at this event, which is like motion. We both love, we just sort of love like movement, right? It's uh and I think for both of us it's part. I mean, I'm getting like this is harder for me to say, but maybe it's part of maybe my spiritual practice, right? It's more than just self-care. Um, it's really about building community, it's about my values, it's about remaking myself, but not just remaking myself physically, right? It's not just the embodied thing at the end every month, right? But like really remaking myself. And I think that religion is another is a place I go to figure out like, what do we mean by remaking ourselves? How does, how does religion, how do logicians think about movement, right? So if we think about yoga, how do they, what is an asana supposed to prepare you for? What is it, you know, how we forgot that like that the tying of like culture, not culture, um uh character rather, and right, and like and who we are and what we do. And religious traditions have great ways of thinking about that. And then religious studies too has ways of like looking at like, okay, when we gather together and um we do a group strength training class, because I do a small group strength training class. What does it mean to do that together versus separately? What does it mean to repeat that together? What is it or what does it mean to go to a class where you're like you're doing the same choreography or you're like yelling the same stuff, or you're following a particular there's a particular teacher? Like, so you're like a teacher like that for me, right? So I mean, I we talked about this last week when we did this little recording it down under how how we met and how you like got me back into strength training. But what I didn't say is like you became such that class became a real lifeline for me in COVID. So much so like though my sisters would come to visit out of town, like, all I want to do is go to in-person Ashley class, you guys. I want you and my sisters are the closest people to me in my life. I was like, what do you guys want to do for me? What do you want to do for birthday list? I want to go to Ashley class together. Like, so for me, it was like part of like it wasn't just like exercise and lifting, right? It was part of like, again, it was a lifeline, me figuring out how to get through, me trying to find some as a total introvert, but still trying to find some sort of community. So I think that these kind of things, like if if movement can remake us, let's be more intentional about how we want to remake ourselves, right? Like, what are your core values? What do you want from a community? What did you come to movement for? Is the movement serving you in that way? Um where could you challenge yourself? What kind of teacher do you want and need? What kind of space do you need and want? And are you really are you really found that? And it's not a one size fits all, right? Like I need something different than you know, than you do. Um but I think I think that yeah, it's an interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, it's it's definitely making me think of, you know, at this point, I I've taught thousands and thousands of people. And in, I don't know, maybe four or five different like methodologies. And I do hear a lot of the same sort of unconscious, I guess, conscious, but unconscious behavior of like, well, this is just close to my house. Well, this just fits with my schedule. Um there's there's there's not always a grounding in what somebody's doing. It's just like, I know I need to move my body, and this is fine. This this works. And and it's it's you that's making me think like what I already inherently feel and know and what I look for. You're putting this language and almost like framework to it, which is all of that stuff matters in that remaking process because it just becomes like a part of my inner compass, you know, and the and the basis of which other decisions get made, including how I parent, all of those things. And so for it to just be like a throwaway is such a miss.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

I think it's a missed opportunity, right? And I think so there's there's there's the one thing of like doing after movement, post movement, you being so receptive to like it, which is why we'll do sort of like when we do our Dharan under a yoga event, we'll do like stuff afterwards, right? Or how when you did your. Um workshop that I went to a couple weeks ago, we did sort of like a small like writing prop afterwards, right? You're in a different space. There's that piece of it. But then I think you're right. It's like it's so easy to be like, well, this is the studio that's close to me, or this was the gym that's close to me. This one had a a um a deal. So I just did it right. I get in a car, which I hate, even I didn't need to get in a car to work out in Brookline. There's a bunch of gyms I could walk to, but I get in a car and I drive to my gym because I found a gym that does these other things that I right. And it's the gym that um, I mean, you just saw this video. It's a gym that when I did my first pull-up, like they celebrated almost more than I did, right? Like it was so much more because, like, first of all, I didn't only did the pull-up because I had a certain trainer who could see that in me. And I was right for it. But then, you know, there with like my gym bestie and the trainer, and like that kind of like the, you know, real community, real support, but also like real witnessing, right? Like real fellow, like fellowship. These are religious words, witnessing, fellowship. That's what it's that's what it says. It was like they really saw me and they really shared that moment with me. Um, and that's worth getting a car and driving for, quite funny percent.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

100%, which is why we journaled after my class, which is why we'll do that work in our co-led workshop. It's why the Courage campaign is the way it is. There is when you take vigorous movements, when you do something hard, and then you do something, I'll call it soft, that integrates the hard. Then my question is, well, what do you get to go do now? You've you've shifted something, you've gone somewhere, and we leave classes and we leave workshops and conferences and all that stuff. And the magic stays behind. You could carry that forward and you could call your legislators. There are so many ways that you can then create good from the good that you created within yourself. Yeah. Which I think interested me in your work more because of social justice and wellness needing to be together. Not it's not like a nice to have, like it is the thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

And it's very clear this last six months, like what wellness influencers will not speak out about what's happening politically, right? They're worried about losing followers or ver um, so there's that wellness, there's that whole problem with wellness. But I think there's also like in the movement, like if your hour-long whatever movement class is the best part of your day, how do you how do you carry that forward? And it's not that I think that like religions are the only way of knowing how to do this, but there's two things. One is that like understandings of movement and um fitness actually have their origins in a Protestant movement called muscular Christianity. So there's this historical reason to like understand. There's also like the way in which movement has been really part of liturgy for religious communities. So there's some just some like cool like things to look at there. But I also just think that religious studies, like as an academic discipline, we have all these like tools and frameworks and theories of understanding why that happens that help you understand why it's what's happening for you. Like virtue theory, this idea that like you do a thing over and over again, how it changes you, like actually changes you, your character, or something like, I mean, I, you know, like you, you are a charismatic teacher. And I not just like your personality is sparkling, and you know, you look good on it. All of those things are true, but there's also something that you you only like have that authority and charisma if you're tapping into something that people already needed, right? So on those Zoom call, those Zoom lifting classes during COVID, you like saw us in a way we needed to be seen. You like held space for like what was happening in the world. You didn't pretend like we weren't going through COVID. Um, and so that too, like we have like theories of thinking about charisma and like probably problematic forms of charisma you want to look out for. Like, what is real leadership and guidance and teachers look for? So there's also just like all this cool framework and theory that you don't have to like convert. I'm not trying to convert anybody, but I think there's some um just really helpful to get clarity at what's happening. Um, that's so that's what I've found from my own sort of teaching. Um, and that's sort of like what I'm trying to do a little bit beyond well on this. Kind of like, okay, you like, you like spiritual fitness classes, you love Soul Cycle, right? Let's figure out what it's doing for you, what it could maybe maybe it's there's some risks there or some harm that you didn't think about, but also how could it work better for you if you understood some more of what was happening?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

So you're not saying, or maybe you are, so tell me like it doesn't sound like to me you're saying, hey, uh SoulCycle's been problematic for XYZ reasons. Stop writing, don't give them your money. You're you're saying that's your choice. And then here are these other things. Yeah, I mean, I'm not taking it.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

People I know are addicted to Soul Cycle. So you and I have talked about this because I would put my first Soul Cycle class as research for this book, um, which is crazy in me because like I'm into every all these like crazy things. I've never been to an actual soul cycle class. And I think I DM'd you afterwards and I was like, I went to a Taylor Swift ride, which was probably and I was like, I just got yelled at by Taylor Swift for 45 minutes, and I got it's like too much stimulation with the lights, and I didn't, I didn't like like it. I was like, the workout was great. I didn't like it. I feel like I got screamed at by Taylor Swift for 40 minutes, and you're like, I mean, Jesus showed the first time I took a soul cycle class. Yeah, oh my god, bro.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

It's not for me. Like 30 seconds in, I'm tears streaming down. I'm like, the Lord is here and he has come for me right now. But also, Taylor Swift, you fucked up. That wasn't the good ride that you could have done. No, no shade to the Swifties. I know they are a strong community, but yeah. That wouldn't have been my first choice for you.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

I did not carry it through it. Anyway, so I'm not trying to take away anyone's soul cycle, just like I'm not trying to take away anyone's yoga, right? Like I would never give up whatever movement like worked for me. I'm not giving up yoga, I'm not giving up strength training, like I don't care. Like you tell me it's not, yeah, I don't care. But we're interested, yeah. I'm interested in like, you know, again, if if you learn about it and you're like worried about learning the pro about the problematic things, I'm kind of like going, why? Like, if there are problematic things involved, you should consent, right? You should know what you're getting yourself into. Right. Also you maybe would be better served by a different cycling community if there were some things that soul cycle you didn't like, for example, or a different form of movement within the yoga, you know, there's so many forms of yoga, or a different studio, or a different teacher, or just like learn a little bit more about like how to make an actual just class work better for you, right? Like I know teachers are always like set an intention beginning of class, but I mean like a much more, a more robust version of that, right? Right. I this is not a one size fits all. I do not have a list of do's and don'ts. Uh, you know, my re my my regiment is not your regiment, you know? Right. Things work different for different people. But I think that we've been so for so long, I at least have been felt felt like I've been sold very watered down versions of techniques and practices and the idea that like I gotta do them all a little bit. And if, or if I just find the right combo, I can life hack myself into whatever. Okay, yes, yes, living forever. And like, I don't think that works. I like just think we have to go deeper to make it work. Okay. The yucky stuff too, the stuff that's uncomfortable. Yeah. Not just the good vibes, all that stuff. Do the work, do the discipline. All that, all that.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

So, this idea of watered down wellness. I have many thoughts, obviously, but what if somebody doesn't know that what they're doing is watered down? Does your book help them to be able to figure out or or maybe even see the difference between something that would be more impactful and something that wouldn't?

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Yeah, I think we often don't, we don't know, right? We're just sort of someone say, You're just doing a sound bath, you're just like, do it. This is a new thing. It seems like the new thing because Instagram just told us it was new, even though it's been a centuries. Yeah, I mean, that's actually how the book is organized. Like it's organized around seven different super popular practices. So sound baths is one, AA is one, yoga is one, um, delics is one, mime is one, detox dieting cleansing, food is one, right? And uh the idea is that in each chapter, I'm gonna show you a little history, like, you know, detox dieting didn't come from anywhere. Guess what? There's a religious history there. I just want you to know. I know you think you don't have anything to do with it, but like it's there.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

And then so here's some problematic forms of what I see as cleanse as a detox dieting in the wellness world. And then what would it look like to take food different like more seriously? So not just what we eat, but how we eat. Um, or what would it so same thing with mindfulness? Like maybe you're just like someone told you to be mindful. You should be mindful um all the time, and then everything will be solved.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Okay, well, what is that really decoupled from things like a community and ethics? What would it look like to put it back into a community? What so that for that chapter, I went and did, you know, a silent retreat at a monastery, more sort of like intentional form of um Buddhist form of meditation, interviewed some of the um monks there to get a sense of like what do they think is missing from mainstream mindfulness, like, you know, that people are consuming and all spaces, right? You know, school and stuff. So like that's what each chapter is supposed to give you like a little taste of or psychedelics. I mean, I didn't want to go there on this book, but I kind of had to, given that that's a space that people are interested in.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

And psychedelics are something that really for like what we call psychedelics today, are things that religions have used for a very, very, very long time. Um and not and not not just indigenous communities, but certainly indigenous communities, right? But even, you know, um just just like super complicated, thick history. But the thing that's cool about that for me, as someone who's nervous about something like a psychedelic, psychedelic is a great example. If something is powerful enough to heal us or to like completely transform us, then it's also powerful enough to mess us up, right? Also with these really like we're drawn, I'm drawn to, I don't wanna, there's no shade to Plotties here, but I'm drawn to yoga over Plotties because of what I think, part of what I think yoga has in terms of some of the spiritual stuff. People are drawn to psychedelics probably because what they think it's you know, the power it has, right? But I think that we don't know enough about, we don't do enough of like risk mitigation. Religious containers do that, kind of, right? So that chapter looks at some of the history of religion and psychedelics. It talks about the popularity of psychedelics, and then I like go and study, but also participate in a religious ritual with a religious community to think about like how what are the guardrails put on the taking of ayahuasca as a sacrament? How does that change the experience, the integration afterwards? Like what what feels differently different about that than taking it on a couch with a therapist, right? Um, or at a retreat, you know, in Peru or something. Um what what does the religion add to it? So it's I do the things, you don't have to do the things, but the idea is that like there's there's some there's some history and some sort of integrity and some like again, some ideas and frameworks there that might be useful to you, even if you're not interested in the religion, that particular religion per se. Because I, you know, again, I didn't, there's no conversion happening for me through this book, even though I did everything. And some of the practices actually, the more I leaned in, I was like, I don't want to do this. This is like not for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

I want to do more of this.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

I want I'm interested in that. Why did that what did that mean? Yeah. I need to know more. How did you come up with the seven? I just sort of tried to pick things that I thought um a lot of people, most things are things that people have some um familiarity with, but they're then also things that have affected my life. So there's a chapter about AA, which in some ways feels like a weird thing to have in a book about.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Why?

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Well, so AA is the the OG spiritual but not religious technique. It that's the first sort of group that sort of branded itself as spiritual but not religious. It's also in the therapeutic sort of medical space, it is what we give people to heal themselves from addiction. It is the solution we give people in the US anyway. Right. And it is deeply religious in its origins. I know people who are in AA are like, it's not religious. I'm like, okay, but but bear with me. Historically, it comes out of a Protestant group called the Oxford Group. The 12 steps are based on these steps for like avoiding sin. There's God all over, you know, the traditions of it. Um, and so the the reason why that matters is because for some people, that religion means a can't work for them. And one of those people is my father or was my father. He's now past. So for me, each chapter is personal in some way like that. So that I was just realizing this when I was talking about the book yesterday with someone or writing about the book yesterday, I guess, is my substack, that I had to like write myself into some of these situations and then write myself out. So I could do all the history, and then I'd get in there and realize, oh shoot, actually I have a personal story related to AA that I guess I'm gonna share now, and then figure out a way out, like in terms of like what are the insights or the lessons I can learn here. Um, and that chapter is actually a chapter about I think the the coolest thing I can learn from AA and one of the biggest lessons from religion in general for me is not so much that like I um I believe in God or a higher power. So interesting, I got asked to be on a podcast, and then they're like, Women, is she a believer? And I was like, I don't even know what you guys mean. But they meant like to believe in God with a capital G. And they're like, I don't think I can say that. They're like, okay, you're not for us then. So I don't think I believe in God with a capital G, but I do believe that I am not God. And that is actually a pretty big like threshold to get over in our hyper narcissistic individualistic everything, like I'm solving the problem with my kid who's just dropped AP physics, even though she never did, you know, all that. Yeah. That's a huge lesson. All religions decenter us in that way. So that to me is like my theological takeaway from A, I'm not in control. I'm not God. I can accept that. I can actually accept that I'm not God. I don't need to um under, I don't need to understand or believe in God or attributes or things like that for to at least get to the level where I at least know I'm not God. At least that. Yeah. So it's kind of like me writing my way in. That's an example of me writing my way in and writing my way out of all these different topics. Um, just to sort of share my own journey. And again, some of it will line up and some of it won't. But it's like an invitation for a conversation, really.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

For everyone who reads this book. It's not the question I want to ask. What kind of world are you building?

SPEAKER_03 37:03

It's so it's fine that you said that. So I finished this book and then I kept writing. That's what my Substack is. I kept like playing with the ideas because I realized that wellness was just one little example. It was a way to get people to start to try to reimagine religion with me. Um, because I do think I do think religion is I think it needs to be reimagined in some ways. I think religious institutions have a bad rap for good reasons, right? And I think a lot of people have religious trauma. Um, but I also think that there's something there that's helpful for us imagining a new future, hopeful. I mean, I think in this particular political moment where I'm really finding great conversation and partners with religious thinkers and traditions and theologians, is like I see things breaking down, right? Someone just posted today um that it's like we're in this like pay for the US government is like this bad pay for service model where you keep the price keeps going up, but the service keeps going down. Like I feel like the world is like that, right? It becomes more and more expensive and we're getting less and less like whatever. I don't know, like comfort agree. Like everything is so if you think about it as like transition, if you feel like it's the world's burning down or just in this enormous moment of transformation or transition, that's how I'm trying to think about it. Like if things break apart, and that's an opportunity to build something new. Right. And that and I actually think that like you need to have trust that there's something new is possible. And I don't know if I would call it faith, right? But I feel like that's sort of what I'm playing with religion. Like, so what is it? How can these deeper conversations with these religious thought thinkers, whatever, help me get to because I don't trust a lot, right? Like I'm not very trustworthy. Because again, I don't believe, I don't have God with a capital G to trust or Jesus or whatever. And I don't trust our government. Do I trust humanity? I want to. So how do I? Yeah, I mean, I'd like to.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

So definitely not around election time. We're not trusting these people.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Yeah. So I guess that's what I'm trying to for me. It's it's a progressive view version of like what the world can look like. Not everyone will line up with my particular political values, but I just really want the conversation. Like, let's reimagine something different than this. Because no, no, no one thinks this is good, right? Like we can at least agree, like, things are not good right now. Like, we the people are not okay. The kids are not okay, but we're not okay either. Um, so I guess that's where that's where I I I mean, I don't know what it looks like. I that's and I'm okay with that. I don't have like here's the thing, I want to build exactly. Um, that's what I love about you so much. You look have this vision of like, I want to build this thing. I kind of just want to invite the convert, like I want to set the table and have the conversation, but I don't really know where we end up. I just think there's I'm hopeful that it's something better than this.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What did you want to be when you were a little girl? Probably not this. No, like president of like the world.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

A global president. No, I think I was really helped by like I didn't have brothers. There's three girls in my family, and I really and I had a really strong father, and I think that I was really helped by only having, you know, I'm the oldest, so I could like, you know, could do neuron. Yeah, I don't know. I think I mean like I was going, you know, when I was a little little, it was like either ballerina or president of the world.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Always thought I was gonna be a lawyer. I really did think that was where I was going. My partner would say that if I had gone to law school and had gone the legal route, we would not be together because I'm such a workaholic, it would have been bad for like life work back. Um but I I actually feel extremely fortunate to have the job and career I have. I sort of have a job that doesn't exist in the same way anymore because you can get a PhD in religion. I mean, come on. And not get a P not get a job like I have, not get a position as a professor or have this enormous amount of time to write and teach publicly. So I I'm like very grateful for that. I feel lucky that I'm not president of the world. I would not want to be president of the world.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't. It it would it would not be good.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

I could fix the things. I would like to actually if you were president of the world, I feel like we wouldn't be like this right now. But yeah, I don't want to I don't want that much responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I just Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:24

I want I want to do my part and I but I don't want to be in charge. I don't want to be in charge anymore. I think I always wanted to be in charge. I don't really want to be in charge anymore.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

I'd be a better collaborator and I really get a lot of um I mean I spent a lot of time on my Substack and on my Instagram trying to like highlight the work of other people because I just find that really valuable. I don't need to be, I don't like to be the center of attention in a weird way who's always on camera on talking.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Yeah, I don't need that anymore. I know my dad said something to me once when I was a little kid. He said, you don't need to tell people how great you are. They will just figure it out. So that'll give you an give you a sense of what I was like as a kid, right? Like, and if they can't figure it out, then they probably weren't that great to start with, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

That's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

You know, I I can't help but think about dads, Ashley. That the next time we talk, we should just talk about our dads.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Uh no, we we really do. I mean, as as you know, I'm like embarking on this like memoir-esque thing. Um, I didn't know that until I read your Substack and I was like, we're calling where yeah, we're I I just I finished my sessions with my writing coach, and now in a month I'm going into, she does like a writer's group. And she's like, it'll be good for you because it'll feel competitive. She's like, she's like, it will, it will push you forward and up. And I'm like, this is terrifying. And I'm saying, yes, take my money.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

The nice way of putting that is it'll make you accountable, right? It will make me accountable. I think that we're a social write. I mean, I think that humans are social, but I think a social accountability with writing is always key. Whether that's someone waiting waiting to read it, or it's because, oh, someone else wrote a thousand words today, I better fucking write a thousand words.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yes, yes, because I said I was going to, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Like all of the things that kind of will help. Oh, exciting. But yeah, it is, it has been interesting to to think of both my dad and my mom in this, in this way where I'm going deeper instead of just like flippantly talking about them because of just sort of the memories that live on the surface or like the injustices of my childhood and really being like, well, these were full people with very full lives. And I don't have to agree with anything and everything. And my child won't agree with anything and everything having to do with me. But I want to investigate this. It's worth, it's worth digging into my life. lineage and where I come from and who I am becoming and how it all, you know. Yeah, where it all started. I mean, I would argue listening to you, I'm just like, if you were a religious girl, even though I know you're not, if you were I really just knew really just ish.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

It's like what you think I am.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Listening to your story and I'm like, this feels what we would call like divine, right? That you just kind of mistakenly or by mistake or on a whim or whatever, you end up on this path. You you just you said in the beginning of this conversation that you'd you've written four other books. All of a sudden now like your work meets the moment where we most need your work. Everything blows up you're quoted and you're interviewed and and all of these things happen.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

And so you know us in the Capital G God community would be like this was how it was supposed to be so you know it's funny to me what it seems like it's just that it's back to that like um being a better collaborator. I think I just am better at under a better listener to my audience, my potential reader. Like I think I just have a sense of what's going on a little bit, right? So sometimes I was a little worried I was writing this book that I was like just writing a book about me. And then as soon as I started like talking about it on social media or in Substack, I was like, no, everyone's like, oh my God, thank God this has been bothering me for a really long time. Yeah. Like yes, I realized that well this industry was like not serving its purpose. Yeah. Or maybe they're not really to follow me to the religion place yet, but they're like, okay, maybe just I'll give you like the benefit of Dap for a little bit. Let's play this idea of religion. So I don't think it's actually me. I think it's just a particular moment that I was like, huh, this is going on and no one really wants to talk about it because religion has such a big PR problem. I'll talk about it because I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

So let's limit.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Um but I yeah I don't yeah I don't know we'll we'll see we'll see what yeah we will. We'll just the journey is long if you're lucky you know thing too is like partly this you just heard like because I'm 50 so I have a different perspective on my life. Like you're in I was joking I stopped posting this because I thought it might be alienating but I'm in my zero fucks error. Like I don't really care. I'm already a full professor at Northeastern. There's no place to go like that's as high as you go as you go assistant, associate, full I'm there. I'm like so I'm not like I'm not trying to move from Northeastern. I like where I am. I people try to hire me other places I don't want to go other places. I'm not trying nothing I do like changes my career that way.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

I'm not writing over my shoulder trying to make my advisor happy or my dean happy so I'm just trying to lead with my chest and be myself in my writing because it's more fun. And it just turns out when you do that people are like oh like they respond more.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

They feel it they do.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

They feel it yeah they do way more fun to do. But anyway I'm excited for your book too and I the one thing I was going to say about that is it's interesting because you have your father who's passed but your mother who's not it's very and I had the same thing. I write my mother is also a character in my book.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I can't wait.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

And yeah and my dad who has passed is and it's you know it's a different tension there too, right? Like how you write someone who's gotten that memory and that impact and then how you know you write about uh my poor mother who I like wrote about on Substack how I was afraid to call her after uh one of the murders in Minneapolis because I wasn't sure how she what news she was seen and of course she read my Substack and was like wait a minute you're really afraid of call I was like I'm really afraid yeah okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

So well that takes care of that.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Yeah but it's different when you write about some when you're writing a memoir and you're talking about parents and they're in their in your life like you want to like you want to tell your story. Or like you know I had some difficulty figuring out her like I like there's a story kind of on my daughter but I could it's really her story. Right. So a little bit of through me but it's not yeah it's hard. It's that that's a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

So yeah my coach gave me the she she was like taught like talk to your mom tell her you are writing this thing. And so I called and I was like so I think I'm writing a book and you'll be in it. And surprisingly she was so excited I think it felt good for her as a mom to know that there was something that she did really, really write.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

You know and one other thing I can say about that is that for my mom reading the books when she's a pedagogical she's a character in them and then read my substack, I think it makes her feel much closer to me. She's like I know you really well in a way I didn't don't know you as an adult. So like the more honest and raw you can be, it actually has made our relationship better. She's like I just didn't like I just feel so close to it's funny because I'm writing for like 12 out of 1300 people right now but my mom think feels like I'm writing her and that's that's sort of like a that's a sweet sort of like that's really sweet.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

So I always ask every guest to well one you're gonna have to plug your work but before we get there is there anything you can leave us any quote or piece of advice or anything for the women who listen to this podcast and some men. I think only my husband but like shout out to Mark shout out to Mark we love him.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

When Mark whenever Mark showed up on the zoom call I was like there's the here's the old dude in the corner saving go Mark we got the burpees yeah everyone get you get you a mark get you a man who will support you um and I don't know how do I have any advice no I am like in the work yeah I just like I am in I am in it with you kind of just solidarity quite frankly that's my lovely takeaway. And yeah people want to like connect with me the best thing to do the the sweetest thing to do my love language right now is ordering my book or pre-ordering my book Beyond Wellness um which you can do on my website or wherever um wherever you buy books um on lisbucar.com li-z-b.com I have a book tab and I have like everywhere you can buy it so you don't have to just buy Amazon like all the places. The cool reason to do that before April 28th is you get a little, you get two bonuses. You get to read the mindfulness chapter right away and you get a workbook um based on the mindfulness chapter to kind of like do some of the stuff that we'll be doing in our workshop a version of that of what we're doing in our workshop um at Down Under. So that's the that's there's that there's my Substack called Religion Reimagined if you're a Substack person just warned I write a lot I write one or two essays a week because I love it. And you can subscribe for free. Nothing is paywalled. And then what I really hope is that people will come and join us at Down Under because this is let me just say this is I'm so excited about this. So like usually a book launch happens at like I don't know like a bookstore or like for me at a university in a big hall with like you know professors. And when Ashley when you suggested like let's do you want to do something like movement based, I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. It's like a mini like retreat like that will, you know, if we we are actually pitching the multi-day retreat big retreat centers but this is like a smaller version of that. Well I'll tell you just a little bit about the book Ashley will move you through some movement and then I'm making something like again a workbook just for this which is going to be based on kind of like yoga but also the spiritual the movement stuff that we were talking about so that there's some prompts and things for you us to work through together in pairs and small groups and one on one you take that with you do whatever you want um just as a way to like some container for the reflection. So some of like the fun stuff that I would do with students, right? But you just get it.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

So I I just hope people will come. I think it'll be I'm really excited because like I think we are learning from each other when we do these things. And I think it will be like for me it's like the best way like the most fun way to launch a book right in like you know in a place like that with you.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

But part of why this is so cool for both of us too is that you know this is a multi-generational, multiracial multi religious like collaboration here. It's it's not often that you get people that are so different but that align on these key points that can bring something special in person and and I think that um yeah we would just really love to have you in the room.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Yeah we and we both are usually invited to do this with different types of of groups right but to bring what we both kind of um bring to the table together and to collaborate and accomplish something different and you I'm really excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

So I hope you will well well yeah Liz thank you so much for spending this time with me I could chat with you all day it's like a such a good excuse to hang out with you on like come podcast.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Our animals are so good too I didn't hear your cat the dog is asleep.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

He left he left me so yeah yeah good luck thank you Ashley it's great to talk appreciate you all right everybody follow Liz pre-order the book and then we will see you on May 2nd at down under central square I will link everything in the show notes follow the show keep listening