How Universities Can Build Ethical, High-Impact International Programs

Curiosity is a muscle, and global learning is the workout. We sit down with Emory University’s Associate Director of Global Engagement, Natalie Cruz, to explore how students, faculty, and institutions can move beyond stamp-collecting travel toward programs that are ethical, safe, and genuinely transformative. From free passport initiatives and data-driven global maps to research partnerships and virtual exchanges, we trace practical ways to open doors for first-time travelers and deepen impact for seasoned globetrotters.

Natalie unpacks what makes a program “high-impact” in the real world: community-led projects, thoughtful pre-departure training, and structured reflection that turns experience into growth. We examine how to avoid voluntourism by centering local needs and consent, why homestays can be powerful when done with training and safeguards, and how universities are professionalizing risk management with dedicated safety roles and clear protocols. For students traveling without a faculty leader, we map out a prep blueprint—country research, language basics, ethical case studies, and early connection with on-the-ground coordinators.

We also tackle the big system shifts: diversification of international student mobility, the rise of hybrid and online models, and the need for U.S. institutions to build consistent, partnership-driven strategies. Measuring cultural competence isn’t simple, but tools like the Global Perspectives Inventory and long-term follow-ups reveal the deeper story of skill-building, empathy, and changed trajectories. Funding remains the sticking point, so we share concrete paths—from community groups and alumni campaigns to fee waivers and targeted scholarships—that make global opportunities possible.

If you’re on the fence about studying or serving abroad, consider this your nudge. Do the prep, choose partners carefully, and step outside your comfort zone. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a push to go global, and leave a review with the question you want us to tackle next.

Book Recommendations:

1. The Poisonwood Bible - Barbara Kingsolver

I also want to thank our listeners for joining us as it is our goal to not only share with you our guest’s introduction to international healthcare, but also to share with you how that exposure to international healthcare has shaped their future path in healthcare. As true patient advocates, we should all aspire to be as well rounded as possible in order to meet the needs of our diverse patient populations. 

As a 50+ year nurse that has worked in quite a variety of clinical roles in our healthcare system, taught healthcare courses for the past 20 years at the university level, and has traveled extensively with my students on international service-learning trips, I can easily attest to the fact that healthcare focused students need, and greatly benefit from the opportunity to have hands-on experiential healthcare experiences in an international setting! I have seen the growth of students post travel as their self-confidence in their newly acquired skillsets, both clinical and cultural, facilitates their ability to take advantage of opportunities that previously may not have been available to them. By rendering care internationally, and stepping outside one's comfort zone, many more doors of opportunity will be opened.

Feel free to check out our website at www.islonline.org, follow us on Instagram @ islmedical, and reach out to me @ DrH@islonline.org

Transcript

Host Intro And Natalie’s Background

Dr. H 0:11

Well hey there, I'm Dr. Patrick Hickey, or Dr. H, as many of my students refer to me. I want to welcome you to another episode of the International Service Learning Experiential Medical Education Podcast. During each episode, I will be interviewing healthcare-focused students and faculty from high school to university that have had an opportunity to participate in an international service learning trip. Additionally, I will be discussing the benefits and challenges to international service with healthcare professionals that have served abroad, as well as industry leaders in healthcare, education, study abroad, spirituality, and those living in the countries being served. I'm very excited to have Natalie Cruz as my guest today. I've had the privilege of having worked with Natalie at the University of South Carolina and I'm very eager for her to share with us her unique journey in international service. Natalie is presently the Associate Director Global Engagement at Emory University, and she has had many other international experiences which have established her as a content expert in the field of international study abroad. I'm real happy today to have Natalie Cruz as my guest. Natalie is a great friend. We work together at the University of South Carolina. It's been a few years since we've seen each other. She's now the Associate Director of Global Engagement at Emory University, just down the road from Columbia, South Carolina. Real excited to hear Natalie's perspective on higher education. She's been super involved. I've got her resume in front of me and it's it's exhausting. I don't know where she's found the time to do all the things she's done. Used to be back in the day, I would I would share with my staff if they aspired to do what someone else was doing in the university environment. Let's look at their resume and see what they did to get to where they're at. Wow. You know, if someone was to try to step into your shoes, Natalie, I don't know if they'd have enough time or energy into what you've done. It's very impressive. But all that said, Natalie, we're we're very happy to have you today. If you don't mind, just give our audience a little perspective of who you are, where you're at, and what you've been doing up until this point in time.

Defining Global Engagement At Emory

Natalie 2:25

Yeah, thank you so much, Patrick. Yes, I agree. It's great to reconnect with you as a friend, as a colleague. We've been connected for many years. And if you came to visit when I was working in Abu Dhabi and living there. And yes, international service learning has had a big impact on my life. And I'll share a little briefly about my journey. So I'm I am working at Emory University. As you mentioned, I'm in the Office of Global Engagement. I'm associate director. And as part of my role, I am curating high-impact programs. I'm supporting faculty in some of the work that they are doing. When we have strategic initiatives around global engagement, a lot of that is led by me. We have a global engagement map and dashboard where we're trying to understand what's the global footprint of the university. So I do a lot of data collection and analysis related to that. I work to support some smaller scholar programs that students coming from international high schools. So really all that is going on globally coming into EMRI and going out of EMRI, we try to emphasize, to amplify, to highlight. And Emory is a very global campus. You know, we have 20% international students, students, uh many first generation international students, students who are studying abroad, doing research abroad. So that's part of my role is understanding where students are going and help to facilitate and connect them. So I, my long story short of my kind of passion and journey in the field is that I met international students my first year. I went to Clemson, you know, I came around, still Clemson fan, but went to South Carolina. Actually, I have a lot more connections at South Carolina now, I would say. But I met German exchange students in my Spanish class. And it really opened up my eyes because I came from a small town where didn't really know anybody internationally. There wasn't a lot of diversity, definitely not international diversity. So that's what I love about college, love about working with students are these kind of opportunities to really open up their eyes or provide these experiences where you never know where it can lead. For some people, maybe it's just an understanding and thinking and having a little bit more curiosity about people from other cultures. For me, it's really literally transformed my life and set me on this pathway. So I've worked in higher education. I before I got into getting my master's degree, I worked for a travel educational travel company. So that was kind of my first foray. I did a bit of volunteering after undergrad as well in an organization in Ecuador. I did some, did a mission trip during during undergrad and studied abroad. So now a lot, I am more of a practitioner than I am a scholar, but I do also have my PhD and my research was in international student mobility. And I actually, my very first article that I published for a magazine was about international service learning back in 2012. It's part of one of my master's programs. We were encouraged to submit to this advising magazine. So I have, I really love being at the intersection of international education and higher education. And I will pause there, but yes, that that is my journey. I've lived abroad, traveled, you know, led delegations. It's it's a big passion of mine and try to meet people where they are and help provide opportunities or experiences or encourage them to explore new new cultures and new ideas.

Dr. H 6:04

Well, I like the intersection that you live at. I want to be there too.

Natalie 6:07

You already are.

High-Impact Programs And Funding Access

Dr. H 6:09

That's a nice I know. And you you bring so much experience to the table. Uh, I mean, we could go on for hours and hours about your international experience, your research. I mean, there's so much to share. And and I really appreciate that because up until now, I've been talking with a lot of people, a lot of students mostly that have been on international trips, but you bring a different flavor to it. Tell me about the high impact programs that you're working on faculty. What is a high impact program? Is that depending upon the country they're going to? Is there a severity scale involved in that?

Natalie 6:38

Yeah. So, you know, I'm kind of sit more from the perspective of internationalization at home. And what I mean with that is I am not typically going out on these programs or saying this is the, you know, creating the program, but it's more supporting maybe through funding mechanisms that we have within our office. So we have collaborative research grants for faculty where they can maybe they're looking at, you know, economics. And one of our partner institutions, they've found a faculty there and they're working on a joint research project. And some of the funds we have support the mobility. We have a program within the office that is provides free passports, uh, free US passports for students of financial need that's sponsored through Delta. And so sometimes that, you know, it's a few hundred dollars now, and that can be really help students kind of get on their way to getting outside of the country. Next week is International Education Week, which is something that is a you know nationwide celebration. It's not nested under the Department of State anymore, but a number of uh professional organizations like NAFSA and AIA have taken that on. So I'm the co-chair for that initiative. And we have like 30, 35 programs focused on faculty, students, and staff that are talking about what does it mean to, you know, be an internationally engaged person? How can you, you know, how can you study abroad? How can you engage in research opportunities? What a global research, what does that mean for in different, what does that look like in different fields? So those are some of the, I would say programs more from like on campus, but trying to amplify what's happening around the world.

Dr. H 8:18

Natalie, I was just at a conference last week, as I shared with you earlier, it was a nursing conference, and I tried to plant a seed with the faculty about the value of international service. What would you say to a faculty member that's never been out of the country, you know, is trying to do as best they can to support their students' growth, but but is concerned about travel abroad?

Faculty Hesitation And On-Ramps To Global Work

Natalie 8:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a really great question, Patrick. So I would say that I would kind of approach it from a couple different areas, especially if it's a faculty member, trying to understand who are some scholars in their area outside of the US that they look to, what are some problems that they're they're trying to solve in their context? And what are other countries doing or other models that they're looking for? Are they in utilizing, you know, scholars that have a different perspective, different lens, thinking about it from how they're already doing their work? And there are a lot of virtual opportunities as well. And I would encourage faculty to engage with their global office or engage with a faculty member who has done some of that global work to tag along, to learn more from them, faculty to faculty. And there are opportunities to have like a one-time interaction with students, you know, students in Peru and students in the US and have a conversation around a shared topic. It doesn't have to be around language learning. It can be around business, it can be around nursing, it can be around, you know, public health. So those are usually kind of soft steps into it, but I find that I can only say so much, but showing other faculty who are doing that work and who are finding those methods usually is more effective.

Dr. H 10:00

And I my experience has been I find few faculty want to step outside their comfort zone. Few faculty want to travel abroad. And I mean, the conditions are okay for staying, but I think a lot of people are in their their comfort zone and they they don't want to step outside that. Have you had that experience yourself?

Natalie 10:17

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say, you know, at Emory, it's uh it's a highly internationalized place. And so I I find that oftentimes faculty are kind of doing their own things, you know, that I don't even know about. But, you know, I do think it's a delicate balance, especially in today's day and age. You know, there's a bit of scrutiny around, you know, international collaborations and research. So I think also hearing from hearing from students that they may work with that have these connections with other countries and international students and things like that can kind of open up their minds. But so many of the problems that, you know, the the wicked problems, they say, you know, climate change and, you know, you know, market and and and things like that, like really need global players involved. And and even though there's a tendency towards isolationism, like we we really are inhabiting this planet together. And we need to know what other countries are doing to be effective and solving these problems. So there's no one one perfect answer to that, but I think just listening, meeting them where they're at, sharing resources, sharing opportunities, and coming back and checking in you know, a few months in the future, seeing how they did, those light touch points can really make a difference over time.

Dr. H 11:36

Yep, I totally agree. I I respect that. You mentioned earlier about uh being exposed to the map or the dashboard of Emory and the and the footprint of the university. Does every university think globally as as Emory does?

Why Universities Need A Global Footprint

Natalie 11:51

Yeah. So I think that, you know, if you if you look at kind of some of the, if you were to do there may be a research article even about this, but like analysis of the global aspects of a university's mission statement. I think it's it's been kind of a you know ebb and flow. And you look at the the internationalization of US institutions. I'm kind of looking from a US perspective, really a lot of that was in the heyday and the mid-2010s, right? So 10 years ago or so. Now things are a little bit, a little bit different, but the the impact remains. A place, you know, a place like Emery already has a lot of global connections. It's trying to help people connect the dots and and make sure that there's opportunity for everyone to be globally engaged. I think some, you know, maybe community colleges or other schools may not see that value and may not see that opportunity. And there still are a lot of, you know, programs, national programs, you know, through the Department of State scholarship programs, you know, Boren, Fulbright, that can help students have these funded opportunities. And, you know, fundraising is becoming more of an importance in higher education. And we haven't really looked to the international markets for those connections. And I think that's something we're trying to do at Emory is to, you know, maybe international students who were international students can fund international students coming here.

Dr. H 13:16

Oh, nice idea. I like that. Speaking globally on global trends, how are institutions, not just Emory, but others, trying to adapt as best they can to international student mobility, especially with the diversification of student destinations. And as you noted early, the the rise of online learning or virtual training?

Shifts In International Student Mobility

Natalie 13:37

Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's something that, you know, people have been, you know, leaders in in universities have been trying to kind of adapt their models, but now there's been a bit of a scramble. There was a, you know, a three-week, about a three-week pause in visa appointments at U.S. consulates around the world. And that, you know, did impact as a variety, there were a variety of factors, but that did impact some of the numbers for international students coming to the US. So I would say though, one comment related to that is that I'm of the mindset that in general, diversification of international student mobility is a good thing. You know, I've done some research looking at how mobility has shifted over, you know, the past 20 years or 20 years when it was published a few years ago. And we see other universities building up their capacity for higher education institutions and the quality of education. I think all in all, that's a good thing. So where I kind of see this new era and where people are looking at is more around partnerships. And I think this aligns with where international service learning is shifting as well, that it's not just about let me go and let me do and tell. It's about how do we mutually engage, how do we learn from each other? So the partnerships, as well, is maybe there is a program where they do one year in India and then they come and do one year in the US. And for a long time there was this branch campus model, right? There's a lot in the UAE, there's a number in China and in Korea and Singapore and other places. And so those still, a lot of those are still open. Many have have shut down. And a more effective model is kind of what University of or Arizona State is doing, what global global hubs that Cornell is utilizing. So partnering with an institution to map their curriculum, to have similar programs. I think that's really the way and the method that we need to be going. So that's one way that with the changes of international student mobility, schools are leaning into. They're looking at pathway programs, you know, students coming from, you know, maybe if they have this partnership with a university in Singapore, they can have fast track admission to a university in the US, they can have some credits done. I know at Emory there's an application-free waiver for students from certain countries. At Emory, we're also thinking about how we can utilize more hybrid models or online models. And also, I think US has been beneficiary of a great education, higher education system. And we've just kind of said, well, we can just rest on our laurels. Where a lot of systems like Australia and the UK, they've made a very concerted effort to work together, have a national strategy. Things are so diverse and siloed at the, you know, within the US. So I hope that we can really work together to have more of a strategy to say, hey, the US is a great place to study and here's why. And so that we're trying to do that with Emory's lean more and grow our global brand.

Dr. H 16:42

Well, Natalie, as I speak to my faculty and students about cultural competence, I try to stress how important it is, especially in the healthcare arena. What measures do you see that are being used to assess students' development of cultural competence and global citizenship? What I mean, the kids go on a trip, how do you measure their gaining of competency on that trip?

Natalie 17:05

Yeah, so there's a few key measures, you know, like the intercultural development inventory, global perspectives. So I've I've done some research using the global perspectives inventory, the GPI, and it actually looked at students who are engaging in study away, which is within the US, but thinking about tapping into how many cultures there are within the US. Um, so there's a couple of models out there. You know, there's there's definitely fell there's definitely challenges with the pretest and post-test and the self, what's the word I'm looking for? Like grading yourself within surveys. So I think that uh qualitative data and and and asking questions and kind of gauging where students are at before they leave and when they come back is really, is really critical. But I think honestly, there needs to be more longitudinal studies of kind of what you're doing with this podcast, actually, but keeping in touch with students in like two and three and four years when they come back. How maybe has their pathway shifted? How have they utilized some of the skills that they learned? Because yes, there may be a, you know, an impact, but really right when they come back, but really it's over time that you see the lessons that are learned blossom. So there are a few measures out there, but I think it it's it's kind of a nebulous subject that's that's a little bit hard. We kind of have to do the best we can with developing these programs and and hope that they over time that we see the benefit.

Dr. H 18:38

Well, I appreciate you sharing that about the the this podcast because you you're right. I mean, it's it's amazing how students are able to connect the dots between the experience they had and now 10, 12, 15 years later. And yes, it is pretty obvious when they immediately come back, there's that wow factor. But down the road, is it still something that that made a difference in their life? And that's what this podcast has been able to do. Natalie, one thing that that that I'm always challenged with and struggle with is volunteurism. You know, I'm not sure what Emery does, but what do you believe should be done prior to trips to make sure that we're they're not students aren't engaged in that volunteerism that that we're always are concerned about? Yeah.

Measuring Cultural Competence And Long-Term Impact

Natalie 19:20

Yeah, that's a really great question. And I'm I'm glad that you're asking it. And I'm glad that in general the field is kind of shifting that way. So I think a couple pieces working with a reputable company that really looks at the impact that they have on the communities that they're serving and that can continue to be involved with key leaders in the community. I think that that is a really key piece of it. Prepping the students in advance and understanding, you know, if if it's possible, having an application process, having an interview process for the students, you know, it can be, you know, trying to, and I think that it's so important not to be exclusionary, but to meet students where they're at. So not necessarily if they are looking for there may be some keywords are like, well, if they're really just trying to go on a study tour, this is not a good experience for them. But also hearing them, having those conversations, having a group of other groups of students in the course that can talk and and share about their motivations. And I would say really being culturally mindful and preparing students in advance for what they're going to be engaging in. And that it's not about what they're going to do, but it's about how they're going to engage with the community and how they're going to work together to, you know, to solve a problem that the community has identified.

Dr. H 20:50

Well, actually, that's a that's a good point. It releases my next question. I was going to talk about pre-departure training. You know, what should we be doing to prepare the students mostly for the cultural and ethical challenges that they're going to be seeing? Because at this point in their life, they probably have not been exposed to another culture. And then there's a lot of ethical challenges and dilemmas that go along with that. And one other thing, and this was an awful story, uh I met a student that studied abroad for some time, I believe it was in Italy, and they met students from the other university and they were well engaged with those students. And those students at the other university knew everything about America. And then they switched gears and they said, Tell us what you know about our country, tell us what you know about our politics. And this American student was caught off guard because they hadn't done their homework and they felt so awful that those students had had posed that question to them, but they should have done their homework. How do you feel we should best prepare students for these opportunities?

Avoiding Voluntourism And Ethical Prep

Natalie 21:46

Yeah, that's a great, a great story and kind of working, you know, begin from the end. So you don't want to be where those students were in that case, right? So you can't, there are going to be naturally curious, naturally, you know, students that prepare in advance, but that should be part of the curriculum. That should be part of the pre-departure training, you know, and ideally the training is not just let's talk about the safety and security and like here's your flights. It needs to be ideally a series, a series of sessions and where they can begin to build trust with the faculty leader or the leaders to build trust with each other before you go. But if at all possible, having someone speak from the community, even if it's like a virtual kind of Zoom, I mean, there's so many great tools now that we didn't have even when I led a program like this, you know, 13, 14 years ago to do that, to talk to that. At Emory, when we have students that are going out on programs, if there's someone from the country they're traveling to or that has knowledge, they'll come and speak and share like more of an insider perspective when that's possible. I think that's really good. I think have students having some questions where students really do examine their own biases, their own motivation, maybe a little self-assessment tool where they can kind of see where they're at. And then again, they don't have, they don't have to share their responses, they don't have to speak up about it, but just do a little bit of reflective, you know, self-evaluation before they go and and talking and having you know these questions, the faculty or the leaders of these programs really ready to engage students at when they know they're going to be facing a certain time and they're gonna be having these difficult conversations, being ready to talk about that, building a time at the schedule, I think is is critical. And to your exact story, they students need to know at least a few words of the language, phrases. They need to know a little bit about the history, the context, songs, like anything like that, that can really go a long way in building connections. And you're going somewhere to work with a community, you should know about who you're going to engage with, not just expect, well, I'm US and they know about me, and that's going to help bridge any gaps.

Dr. H 24:02

So Natalie, uh I I respect your recommendations for the faculty-led trips, but now we're seeing a lot of independent student cohorts traveling. So I hear you from the faculty perspective and all my trips, I well prepare my students to history of the country, the culture, the language, everything that you've shared. How do we prepare independent student cohorts, excuse me, that don't have a faculty leader? What do you recommend would be that process for them to be ahead of the game and not be caught in that scenario that I described earlier with those students in, I believe it was in Italy?

Natalie 24:38

Yeah, I mean, it this may not be part, you know, of the the podcast, but I guess my question would be like with these student, these independent student programs or whatever you call them, are there kind of like packets? Do they have any preparation that you're is anyone from like ISL preparing these? Like you're going to this place. Correct. You know, I I think if if the students are traveling together, there should be an opportunity virtually for them to engage, at least if they're not in the same location. But I would say a lot of the same, a lot of the same things that maybe the faculty member is already doing, there should be some packets for the students to prepare on their own. And any way you can make connections on the ground before they go is going to be a benefit. But a lot of the same ideas and and and content.

Dr. H 25:27

And I know I do know for a fact that with ISL in particular, they do arrange for Zoom conferencing with the country coordinators who do prepare the students as best they can, but but there's always more they can approve on, of course. So I do appreciate your recommendations. You mentioned funding earlier, uh, funding challenges or scholarships. Do you feel there's enough scholarships out there to support the students that want to travel? And if not, what should we be doing about that? Where should we be looking to try to provide more scholarships for students that want to travel?

Pre-Departure Training That Actually Works

Natalie 26:00

Yeah, I mean, are there enough scholarships out there? I think the easy answer is no. There's not. I mean, you know, there there are some different, you know, more structured programs. I would say if it's just funding to go on, you know, some sort of program that you found yourself that may be more challenging. You know, there are, I think people forget about organizations like the Rotary Club and local organizations. Maybe like there are some sister city kind of relationships. So some of these community organizations often who have do have funding that people forget about and don't tap into. So I would say look to your community, look to service organizations, look to religious organizations within your community at your state level. There's oftentimes resources that people don't know as much about. Also, I think like with organizations, you know, that that have, you know, alumni uh tapping into and doing fundraising campaigns within your alumni of the programs could be really effective. And I don't know how often that that's done. I know that's kind of a thought process within universities, but maybe not as much within external organizations.

Dr. H 27:13

So it's actually been something that ISL has explored, reaching out to all the alumni to build a scholarship fund. So that is a great recommendation. Natalie, do you have any idea on average of the percentage of a student population in a university that actually do study abroad or or want to study abroad?

Natalie 27:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really does vary from university to university. So, you know, at Emory, I mean, I'm the one that's collecting the data, and it's even a hard thing to say because, you know, with students transferring in and out or they go on experience one time, it may not always be for credit, it's not tracked. But, you know, at a at an institution like Emory, it's probably in the like the 30 to 40 percent range. You know, within the Institute for International Education or IIE, they have their open doors reporting, which looks at all, so pretty much all universities within the US will report their study abroad numbers there. So that's a good, a good way and a good gauge to look. But I can tell you that shorter-term programs have continued to grow. And while, you know, they're in an ideal world, you know, if you're looking at the university, it's great to go for longer, but that's just not reality for many people in terms of their caregiving responsibilities, in terms of their curriculum. So the great thing about, you know, service learning type programs is that they are high impact. And you see some of the measures that, you know, the growth that students have on these trips can be equal in two weeks to something over a semester if it's done intentionally and if it's done where they're engaging with the community. So you see a lot of growth there, but in general, you know, study abroad in the US has stagnated a bit. I think we need to look to new models, we need to look to new partners, we need to look to funding mechanisms and continue to emphasize the importance of global learning in our context to grow those numbers as well.

Dr. H 29:13

Natalie, as you know, I'm Canadian-born and Canada is a bilingual country. So we learn French and English equally. We have immersion programs now where students start taking French at grade one and and moving on upwards. The United States, as you know, is uniquely English, and I believe it became our official language, I think sometime the last couple of years, I believe. That said, do you feel that students are intimidated by foreign language here in the United States when they when they when they do study abroad? Have they had adequate training in high school? And is there an emphasis in colleges to continue educate to continue with language education?

Natalie 29:55

Yeah, absolutely. So yes.

Dr. H 30:00

Bilingual person, I'll have to let people know that because you do speak Spanish, correct?

Natalie 30:04

Yes. I mean, I I so some of my answer is going, I will highlight that a little bit. So, as you know, English speaking people often don't have to learn another language for their day-to-day basis. And that is a crutch that is a weakness, right? So that is something that, yes, I do speak Spanish. I I am not as fluent as I should be. And while it is, yes, it does allow you to travel more easily, there's so much of culture that is embedded in language and so much connection that can happen in someone's native language. You know, unfortunately, there's a lot, a lot of programs around language, you know, programs in the university have been cut. It's been, it's been being stripped out of the curriculum in a lot of ways. So a lot of students, you know, even when we look at study abroad, building study abroad partnerships in the US, like it's they want programs that are that are English speaking. And a lot of universities around the world, so you know, I'm just thinking like Germany and Korea, like they're building programs specifically for English speakers, right? And that's not just the US, that's a lot of Anglophone countries or a lot of places. Like, you know, even India, for example, like yes, most most Indians, English is not their first language, it's probably their second or third language, but even for it's easier for them to, if they're going to go to a school in Indonesia, right, to speak English versus a local language. So, you know, I think that it needs to be a greater importance. And that's even if it's just um a short course that students are learning before they go on these programs, but it has unfortunately been dwindling. And we have a lot of technology that can help with that, but it's not a replacement for the real actually having that knowledge. So it is, it is something that needs to be improved upon, and I think has been changing with technology too.

Dr. H 31:59

Now that was foreign language. What about culture? Are students intimidated by foreign culture when they have never been exposed to it before?

Scholarships, Fundraising, And Access

Natalie 32:07

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that it's it can be very intimidating, and you sometimes have to do a little bit of changing minds and opening minds, especially depending on maybe what they heard in their home growing up. Like I know, so I have you know, two elementary age kids, and we really try to emphasize approaching things with curiosity. And if the language is different, it doesn't, it's not silly, and kids have a tendency to make anything silly, right? But it's not like, uh, I don't understand that. It's like, oh, that's different. Like, let me learn. Like, I, you know, help me understand. So I think that exposure is really critical. And doing it in a way that isn't a care making cultures a caricature. I think that is that's a way that we've really improved over time, you know. So that's important as well is when you are, if you have that as part of your pre-departure training or students are are learning, is is to really like critically analyze is this real, is this curiosity? Is this a caricature of this culture? What am I learning and what can I take? And what are the gaps maybe in my my own culture that I'm seeing are being met in a different way? So I when I travel, and I'm sure you had the same experiences with all you travel, you see these little nuances, these little things, you're like, we don't have a word for that, actually, that feeling. And and this is a really neat way that the the people engage with each other. And I wish that it was maybe more like that, but you can kind of build your own culture within your family and and and bring these pieces from around the world. And that's definitely what I've done in with in my family.

Dr. H 33:47

Your kids are are gonna be so there, there's it's it's so great to have you and your husband, David, as parents, because you guys are so global and and they're they're gonna be stepping into an environment where so many doors are gonna be open to them because of what you're addressing with them, which is great. Natalie, on the on the uh safety perspective, are we as colleges and universities putting enough safeguards in place when students sometimes have an opportunity for homestays or staying in hotels or they're staying with a lot of other students? What is what is your global perspective of the safety of international study abroad?

Who Studies Abroad And For How Long

Natalie 34:25

Yeah, wow, that's a great, a great question. I homestays are excellent and really give you a different, a different perspective. When I went to Ecuador for three months, I stayed with a um host family that I kept in touch with for many years. You know, I did find out later that one of the directors of the community kind of oversaw the hostay print family was really skimming off the top and not giving families really the amount that they were supposed to. So, you know, unfortunately, things like that can happen anywhere in any program. And that's not something that someone participating in that can always know. But I would say that yes, uh you want to work with a reputable organization that is has done, you know, the necessary background checks and that the students feel really, really safe and that they can come and bring any concerns to the organization, to the local leaders. I also think that especially if you're gonna do a homestead, that cultural learning piece and before you go really needs to be stepped up a level because you want to understand, you know, we, for example, we take off our shoes and our house, but a lot of people don't do that in the US, but in a lot of cultures around the world, they do. So yeah, and just so I think it's important for the host families also to be trained and like what are some things they maybe can be looking for. So that's a little bit more around the culture piece, but absolutely I think the training and the vetting should should be done. It should be done regularly, not just like you pass it one year and then the next year, you know, for five years, you never have any sort of check-ins. I'm not an expert to say what the best way to do that is, but I absolutely think that is critical. And we should be really encouraging home stays wherever we can for the impact and the learning of the student and the family as well.

Dr. H 36:21

Natalie, when I dealt with parents, of which I dealt with a lot because of their concern of their kids traveling abroad, safety was a big issue. How do we put those safeguards in place? Not just with home stays, but all of the other facets of the program. And and in addition to that, when you go to a typical study abroad fair and you see all these booths and all these people and they're all representing other countries, how does a student know about the safety of that logistics provider? I mean, they can look at the countries, but when you really peel back the onion, so to speak, how how can they do that? How can they find? I know universities will vet, obviously, these companies, but but again, that's safety. If you could uh speak to that, the safety guard uh safety safeguards that are put in place.

Language Learning’s Decline And Why It Matters

Natalie 37:06

Yeah, so within my my office, we have a relatively new position, director of global safety and security. I see a lot of universities that are having this. So ours is embedded kind of at in the global engagement office at the university, some are maybe in risk compliance, some are within the study abroad office. So I think that is becoming that's you know, a lot of times they are dealing with helping people get home from natural disaster disasters if there's a terrorist attack. So I think that is becoming more and more an important piece. From you know, the safety perspective, there's of course the Department of State travel guide, you know, warnings, you know, different levels. I know, for example, like at Emory and a number of universities, study abroad programs can't be approved if they're at a level four, if the student's traveling to a place. So there are sometimes high-risk destinations that you you have to make sure that you can get the credit or that you can can be covered by your insurance. So all those things are things to consider. I think the students should ask for, you know, from a company, they should talk to students who went with the company. And of course, this the organization is probably gonna have recommendations. I would also encourage them to do a little bit of digging on their own too. So maybe to talk to students who aren't official representatives or on an official reference list to get a variety of perspectives. But I in general, most of the larger organizations are are gonna be pretty well vetted. But there are a lot of smaller organizations that are gonna offer a better personalized experience that may not have all of the references. So there's no one right answer, but I encourage students to do their homework and to really um talk to students and our alumni, which a lot of that can be done through social media. You can look and see who's posting and who is going with that organization. It's easier to find that through technology.

Dr. H 39:02

Those are great perspectives. I really appreciate that, especially reaching out to their peers. I mean, I can talk to them blue in the face about the value of a program. And I believe the students would respect my opinions because of who I am and what I've done. But there's nothing like speaking to someone who's already been on one of those trips to get the low down on what it's like. Now, Natalie, in your role, you've met some pretty influential people from around the world, haven't you? Do you want to share with us a few of those names? Maybe an ex-president.

Natalie 39:31

Yeah. So I did get the chance to meet Jimmy Carter. Is that who you're referring to? Yeah. So, you know, may he rest in peace, passed away last year and was a very influential person in my life and created the Carter Center, which originally came out of Emory and it still remains connected to Emery. So they the Carter Center does excellent work. So it was really incredible, even though it was brief to be able to meet him. I've been able to meet a number, you know, when I lead these delegations for Emery, I've been able to meet a number of influential alumni and leaders of universities and you know, consul generals and things like that. So I I really take those as great opportunities and don't take that for granted that I've been able to meet and to know you and to meet you. You're a pretty big deal too. So Canada's finest, right?

Dr. H 40:23

No, I'm I'm humbled to be in your presence.

unknown 40:28

Yeah.

Dr. H 40:28

Hey, one thing, one thing I didn't prepare you for, and one of my interviewees some time ago asked if she could suggest books to read or or podcasts to listen to. I mean, the focus of our podcast has been healthcare, but it's it's it's international service. Are there any recommendations, Natalie, that you have? Either a podcast uh on global perspectives or any books that are out or anything that you've read recently that that you might suggest that students or listeners uh pay attention to?

Cultural Mindset Shifts And Curiosity

Natalie 40:57

Oof. I don't know. That that's a good question. So I'm always reading books. I'm constantly reading books, audiobooks. I'm totally in the line. If you have got, you know, when I'm driving, you know, to and from work or walking around, I'm listening to a podcast, I'm listening to a book. I might have to get, I might have to get back to you on that, but I will say one book that I read that I think is maybe relevant, but I don't know, depending on the audience, slightly controversial. The Poison Wood Bible by Barbler, Barbara Kingsover. Have you read this? Okay.

Dr. H 41:32

No, I haven't.

Natalie 41:33

So it's maybe like 20 years old, but it's a missionary family that goes into the Congo. I forget like what the name of the country was at the time. And it talks a lot about cultural snafuos and cultural nuances and some of the white saviorism and how different people are impacted. And it's just, you know, it's fiction. It is a fiction book, but I think it does a really good job of helping you kind of see things from a different perspective. I want to say it was in the 60s, it's set in the 60s. So that's kind of an interesting one for this, for this group. I'll have to, I'll have to give you some other recommendations another time. I'll think about it some more.

Dr. H 42:19

Oh, that's great. Yeah, I apologize for catching off guard, but Poisonwood Bible, I just looked it up. Yeah, that's great. Make sure to note it. And if you have others that you recommend, we can we can get that posted. Natalie, I really appreciate your time today. We kind of bounced all over the place and speaking about higher education and study broad opportunities, short-term, long-term home stays. Uh I think we covered quite a lot. Is there anything you recommend to you've led a trip before, and and I can recall you brought you reminded me when you were in the capsule and scholars program. And just a note for the people listening, Nattie, Natalie alluded to her graduation from Clemson here in South Carolina. We have a kind of a competition, so to speak, of our of our in-state rivals, uh Clemson and South Carolina. And Natalie actually worked for me many, many, many years ago. And she was my first Clemson graduate that I hired, only Clemson graduate that I hired. But I I remember sharing with Natalie, I want you to have on your desk a lot of Clemson information. So these University of South Carolina students can actually meet a Clemson person and become a friend with a Clemson person because of our rivalry. And Natalie represent Natalie represented both universities very well, Clemson and the University of South Carolina. But Natalie, for those students, undergrads, if you can remember way back when you led a trip yourself to Puerto Rico, what would you say to those students that are kind of on the fence with, you know, should I should I study abroad? Is it worth the investment? Will I learn anything? And how can this trip abroad really help me?

Safety, Homestays, And Vetting Partners

Natalie 43:52

Yeah, well, my my short answer would be do it. There's a million reasons not to do something, and you can always find an excuse, but the opportunities that it could open up are monumental. So even just from becoming a more curious person to someone that you meet, to an open mind, to a connection in the future that you meet there, a friend, you know, just it can really open up your mind and take you in different directions. And if it's not a good fit and you didn't enjoy it, well, at least you tried. Right. So there to me, there's there's no there's no downside. Do your research, find the right situation, the right organization for you, and push yourself to get out of your comfort zone just a little. And you never know where it might take you.

Dr. H 44:43

Well, I I appreciate that you mentioned the word connection. And I don't know if you recall many, many years ago you came up to me one day and said, Patrick, I know what kind of person you are. And I said, What's that? I was kind of worried. And you said, you said I was a connector and you had just read an article on connectors, and and and I've I've remembered that ever since. And and I love that door opening concept and reaching out and connecting people to other connectors. And you're right, you know, it we can open a door of opportunity. And if you go through the door and you like the other side, keep going. But if you don't ever go through the door, you're never going to know what's on the other side. You're never going to know whether you enjoyed it or not. So I appreciate you sharing that. That's a great way to end the podcast. Well, it's been a true pleasure reconnecting with you after so many years. And uh I value all the experience you have. Emory is very fortunate to have you employed there because I I know of your global vision and what you're doing for the university has to be profound. I know the students are greatly benefiting from it. And uh, we appreciate your input today. So thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. And I look forward to keeping it.

Natalie 45:46

Pleasure was all mine. Thank you for the opportunity. And you're a dear friend, and I look forward to the next time I get to give you a hug and see you again in person.

Dr. H 45:55

I want to sincerely thank our guest, Natalie, for her willingness to join us today on the International Service Learning Experiential Medical Education podcast. But most importantly, I want to thank Natalie for the passion that she has shared with us, specific to her own unique journey in international service. Through years of working with students, Natalie has been able to guide many to find their own way in the realm of international travels, and by doing so, she has helped these students to become better global citizens.