International Service Learning: Experiential Medical Education
This podcast will highlight the values of international service learning study abroad trips taken by healthcare focused faculty and students. Guests will include healthcare focused students and faculty, from high school to university, that have had an opportunity to participate in an international service-learning trip, as well as healthcare professionals that have served abroad. Additionally, we will have guests that are industry leaders in healthcare, education, study abroad, spirituality, and service as well as those living in the countries being served. Through our "passionate conversations about healthcare experiences", both internationally and locally, we hope to motivate and inspire others to consider participating in an international service-learning trip ... which might lead to a future career in healthcare.
International Service Learning: Experiential Medical Education
A Future Doctor Finds Her Path By Serving Patients In Resource-Limited Clinics
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Belize looks like paradise until you step into a clinic where “limited resources” isn’t a concept, it’s the daily operating reality. Dr. Patrick Hickey sits down with Lauren, a recent University of South Carolina grad on the pre-med track, to unpack what she learned on a 10-day international service learning trip that blended global health, hands-on experiential medical education, and honest reflection.
We talk through what her days actually looked like: splitting into clinic teams, hospital shadowing, observing surgeries, and ending each night with group debriefs and conversations that kept the learning going. Lauren shares what surprised her most, including how few specialty doctors and major hospitals serve the country, and how that scarcity forces hard choices that many U.S. students never see up close. She also describes the strength of local healthcare professionals, the role of bilingual communication, and how culture shows up in everything from the hospital environment to the rhythm of community life.
The conversation turns personal as Lauren explains how the trip reshaped her view of healthcare disparities, pushed her to “meet patients where they are,” and even expanded her curiosity about specialties after seeing her first C-section. We also cover her gap year plans, medical assistant work, MCAT lessons, and her new role coordinating ISL social media so future teams can better highlight service, not just sightseeing. If you care about global health, pre-med development, and service learning done with humility, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a friend considering a service trip, and leave a review with the biggest takeaway you want more students to hear.
I also want to thank our listeners for joining us as it is our goal to not only share with you our guest’s introduction to international healthcare, but also to share with you how that exposure to international healthcare has shaped their future path in healthcare. As true patient advocates, we should all aspire to be as well rounded as possible in order to meet the needs of our diverse patient populations.
As a 50+ year nurse that has worked in quite a variety of clinical roles in our healthcare system, taught healthcare courses for the past 20 years at the university level, and has traveled extensively with my students on international service-learning trips, I can easily attest to the fact that healthcare focused students need, and greatly benefit from the opportunity to have hands-on experiential healthcare experiences in an international setting! I have seen the growth of students post travel as their self-confidence in their newly acquired skillsets, both clinical and cultural, facilitates their ability to take advantage of opportunities that previously may not have been available to them. By rendering care internationally, and stepping outside one's comfort zone, many more doors of opportunity will be opened.
Feel free to check out our website at www.islonline.org, follow us on Instagram @ islmedical, and reach out to me @ DrH@islonline.org
Welcome And Guest Introduction
Dr. HHey there, I am Dr. Patrick Hickey, or Dr. H, as many of my students refer to me. I want to welcome you to another episode of the International Service Learning Experiential Medical Education podcast. During each episode, I will be interviewing healthcare-focused students and faculty from high school to university that have had an opportunity to participate in an international service learning trip. Additionally, I will be discussing the benefits and challenges to international service with healthcare professionals that have served abroad, as well as industry leaders in healthcare, education, study abroad, spirituality, and those living in the countries being served. So I'm real excited today to have a guest with us, and our guest today is uh Lauren. And this is someone I've known for quite a while, actually. Lauren's uh a student or was a student actually at the University of uh South Carolina. Recently graduated, I'll let her tell you a little bit more about herself. But we've had an opportunity to uh meet actually quite a few times on campus. One thing I do sort of in my part-time as a as a retired university professor, I like to go up to the university and and meet and greet, and and I guess mentor students and sit down and chat with them and look at the resumes and find out where they're at and see if there's anything I can do with with all of my contacts. So Lauren's been one of those that I've been able to help along the way, and I feel very privileged to to have her with us today. And and she's got a lot to tell us. Not only did she recently do a CIRS learning trip, and that was one of the major reasons uh we were having on here, but she's also gonna be taking over social media for ISL, so we're excited for that. Maddie, who had been doing our our uh social media, is off on travels, and Maddie's heading to med school, and I guess Lauren's heading to med school herself, but she's gonna be a little bit further behind. But all that said, happy to have
Lauren’s Pre-Med Journey
Dr. HLauren with us. And Lauren, before I go on, if you don't mind, just uh tell us a little about your uh your own pre-med journey.
LaurenYeah, of course. Hi everyone, this is Lauren here. I didn't always know I wanted to be a doctor. It was on my radar, but I actually began college as a biomedical engineering major because I thought I wanted to do prosthetics for amputees. And I knew within my first semester it didn't feel quite right. I was lingering for something more. So I switched to a biology major and I joined Phi Delta Epsilon, which is our pre-medical fraternity at school. And that was during my spring of freshman year. And ever since then it kind of took off. I knew this is my calling. I got involved in research with autism at the early social development labs. I began volunteering at the free medical clinic in downtown Columbia, helping patients who do not have insurance or can't afford it. And I began shadowing some surgeons at Prisma. And I just knew that this was what I wanted to do. And I graduated in December of 2024, and I will hopefully be matriculating it into med school in the year 2027.
Dr. HWell, that's great. Um I'm glad you shared your journey. I know everyone's journey is a little bit different, but it's great uh to hear that you were involved in research and and the other things that you did, because that's great examples of what students may want to want to want to do and didn't even think about it. Now tell us about your your graduation present to yourself, I I guess. You
Why Belize And Why Now
Dr. Hyou did something in February.
LaurenI did, yes. I since I graduated early, I was able to go to a service learning trip to Belize for a beautiful 10 days. I've never been to the country before, so I was very excited. And this was something I always wanted to do during my undergrad years, just could never find the time or money. But now that I'm graduated and I'm working full-time as a medical assistant, I was able to pay for this trip with the help of the ISL scholarship as well. And it was awesome. I'm so blessed I was able to go on it.
Dr. HWhat um, Lauren, what everyone's motivated by different things for the trip. I I see a lot of students that are interested in going to med school that feel it might help prepare them. What was it that motivated you to sign up for this service learning trip?
LaurenThis is something I've always wanted to do. I was drawn to the opportunity to combine service with hands-on learning in a you know global setting. The chance to work with communities and beliefs, especially in this healthcare environment, really stood out to me. I'm passionate about helping others, especially those who don't have access to health care. And without people like us going to them, they may never actually receive this care. So it was a meaningful way to step outside my comfort zone and just gain a better understanding of global health disparities in comparison to the US.
Dr. HNow, Lauren, had you been on a service learning trip prior to this experience or had you done anything faith-based in the United States?
LaurenNo, this was my first time ever doing a service learning trip.
Expectations And Preparing To Adapt
Dr. HWhat were your expectations? I know you probably have spoken to a few people that have been on the trip since you've been involved in in FIDE and other organizations, but what pre preconceived notions did you have about either the country or the healthcare system?
LaurenYeah, I went into the experience with a general understanding that resources might be more limited compared to what we have here. But I honestly tried not to make too many assumptions about Belize or its healthcare system. I wanted to stay open-minded and learn directly from the people that work there. So to prepare, I did some background research on Belize and the healthcare structure. And on day one of orientation, they also taught us a lot. But I just wanted to keep an open mind truly about the whole thing. And we did pack some medical supplies as well, just to make sure we had gloves and everyone had a stethoscope. But beyond that, I just try to be flexible and respectful and ready to adapt to whatever experience it was going to be.
Dr. HI'm glad you shared adaptability. That's something that that we we we try to help the students to be flexible and roll with whatever is coming, because you you really don't know how to how to prepare or how to prepare as best possible. Now, what did you what did you hope to learn or accomplish both professionally and personally by by going on this trip? Because, you know, as you said earlier, you you didn't have the money during during your undergrad and time time you didn't have it either. So what was it you were looking forward to on this trip?
LaurenProfessionally, I wanted to gain a better understanding of how medicine is practiced in other cultures and settings who have more limited resources than us. I wanted to see firsthand how their healthcare systems operated and compare that to the U.S. and learn from those differences. It also helped me reflect on how fortunate we are and how fortunate I will be to be a practicing physician in the U.S. where we have access to all these resources and opportunities to provide high-quality care and ultimately save lives. Personally, I wanted to experience healthcare in a rural country. So I'm able to be more empathetic and well-rounded as a doctor. It's important to me to understand where patients are coming from and learn to meet them where they are, both medically and personally. And I've done that, you know, in my volunteering at the free medical clinic, but it was cool to do it actually in their country.
Dr. HI know it may be a little premature right now, but do you have any idea of what you want to do as a physician?
LaurenI am so back and forth. I always thought it was going to be dermatology. And then actually on the trip, I saw my first cesarean section, and now OBGne is on the radar for me as well. Seeing life being brought into the world is the coolest thing I've seen so far. So hopefully I'll get a better scope once I start medical school and do more rotations.
Dr. HI've I've enjoyed working with so many students over the years that kind of sort of think they know what they want to do, then they go through the rotations or they go on one of these trips and and they change quite often. And there's nothing wrong with that. And that that's but it is pretty cool to be able to see a life coming into this world. I totally agree. That that's an amazing experience. I've had I've had students with me before on previous trips that just literally started crying when they when they saw delivery. What a what a blessing. What a what a wonderful opportunity you had there.
Clinic Days And Hospital Shadowing
Dr. HSo tell us what a typical day was like on your trip.
LaurenA typical day on the trip started with waking up around 7 or 8 a.m. We had all have breakfast together as a group. After that, for my particular trip, we would split into teams. So some of us went to the clinic while others were in hospital shadowing. During clinic days, we were either going out into the community and inviting patients to the clinic, or we would actually be setting up clinic and seeing patients directly and providing care. For days that we were shadowing the hospital, we were rotating through different departments. We would round with physicians and observing surgeries. We would all come back together for lunch, and then we would continue activities in the afternoon. At the end of the day, we went back to the hotel. We would have dinner as a group, reflect on our day, recap on experiences. And then we would spend time together playing games. And I we were talking to the med students the whole trip. Since my trip, I got to go with fourth year med students. So we picked their brains the whole time about what they do. So yeah, lots of late night talks before going to bed.
Dr. HNow you mentioned the med students. Your trip was unique, and it was actually the inaugural fourth-year med student gap year student trip. What was it like being mentored by fourth-year med students?
LaurenBeing mentored by the fourth year med students was so valuable. They really were a great addition to the group, and they helped us understand how to approach cases and what to look for during physical exams and how to, you know, do a better workup with the patients. I also appreciated how approachable they were. They created a really supportive learning environment for us and made us comfortable asking questions and knowing that it's okay to make mistakes. It was especially inspiring to see them because that's where I want to be in four years. So it gave me a better picture of what my path in medicine could look like.
Dr. HYeah, it's great. I'm really, really glad that we were able to pull that trip together and glad that you were able to benefit from
Scarcity Of Specialists And Hard Limits
Dr. Hthat. What was the most surprising thing that you encountered on the trip and the most challenging thing?
LaurenThe most surprising thing I encountered was how limited the number of specialty doctors there are in Belize. And also in Belize, there's only four major hospitals, one for each region. And specialty doctors would transport between those regions because there's only a couple. I was talking to an orthopedic surgeon, and he said he was only one of two that was go to the three regions. And then the eastern region was the biggest hospital, so they had more there. But out in rural Belize, he was said one of two. So that was crazy to think about in comparison to the United States, where we probably have two surgeons, you know, in one hospital in one town, and they have that for the whole country. The most challenging part for me, I would say, is learning how to navigate the resource limitations we had when dealing with patients. It was emotionally hard at times to see what care options we had and what we could get for them, because some just wasn't realistic in the setting that they're in, you know, that we would treat with surgery and physical care, but they don't have that there. But at the same time, it did push me to be more flexible and focus on meeting patients where they are to give them more of a personalized experience.
Dr. HNow you mentioned the orthopedic surgeon. What was it like working with the local healthcare professionals? Were you able to learn from them? Were they very forthcoming with information? Did they teach you?
LaurenYeah, it was really cool to work with them. They were so knowledgeable, resourceful, efficient. And it was interesting to observe how they adapted care based on the resources they have. One thing that stood out to me also was a lot of the a lot of the workers, like not even just physicians, but they are bilingual. So even though Spanish isn't the primary language in Belize, there are a lot of patients who do speak only Spanish. So it was cool to watch them translate and you know be able to talk to patients in Spanish and then translate for us in English what they were doing. So they were awesome to work with. I really enjoyed talking to them and seeing how their med journey is different than how we do it in the States.
Dr. HWas there
Local Teams Language And Culture
Dr. Hany one uh patient or community member who made a lasting impression on yourself?
LaurenYes, there was a sweet older woman when we were going into the communities to invite patients to clinic. And she had so many dogs outside, and she'd previously broken her hip, which required surgery, and she got that fixed. However, she still wasn't able to walk well. And where her house was was very rough terrain, and she had 10, 15 stairs going up to her front porch. So I thought, you know, this would make her life pretty hard. But she was the happiest person I've ever met. And she had such a positive attitude, and she welcomed us warmly and made us laugh and just shared stories and let us, you know, play with her dogs. So it was just really wholesome to see how someone that has a you know debilitating condition is still the kindest person.
Dr. HWere there any cultural challenges on the trip? I know you said that Spanish wasn't a predominant language, but there there was a variety of language challenges. But what what stood out to you culturally that was maybe a little stressful?
LaurenYeah, culturally wise, I think it was mostly just how they live there is very different than here. You know, this is rural, and it's hard to imagine what you would think it is. But actually being there, there's just so many people everywhere on the streets, you know, walking in the stores. Also, a lot of the markets and even the hospital is just open windows. They, you know, they don't have centralized AC and heat. So everything is open, you know, no windows, no doors. So that was probably the weirdest thing to me was just walking into a hospital and like seeing the outside from your room. But at the same time, maybe it's good for our mental health that we know we see the trees in the sun. So but yeah, it was so cool to see. And I just reminded myself where I was and made the most of it.
Dr. HDid you uh in the limited time that you were there, Lauren, did you feel that you made a difference?
LaurenOh, absolutely. We all made a difference while we were there. Whether it was helping with patients, assisting in clinic, or just spending time with the community members, I felt like we were able to contribute meaningfully to their care and experience. At the same time, I recognized that this impact wasn't just one-directional. The experience taught me just as much, if not more, that I was able to give. Reinforced for me that making a difference in healthcare isn't always about these big interventions or procedures or long drawn-out plans. It's really just about being present and compassion and helping support a system that is doing its best with the resources it has.
Dr. HYeah, I'm glad you shared that because I know a lot of my students wonder if they really made a difference when they come back. And I I try to reinforce just even if they spent some time, as you shared with that older lady, even if you spent a little bit of time, you made their day like a like a ray of sunshine, so to speak. Put a smile on someone's face, play with a kid for a little while. In fact, kids, were there a lot of children at the at the clinics or in the hospital where you were?
LaurenYes, there was definitely a lot of kids. In the communities, they were quite small. The schooling is K through 12. They had all the students there because there's only about probably 20 in that community. But hospital was always busy and the outpatient clinic was always flooded with patients and lots of children.
Coming Home With New Perspective
Dr. HWas it hard readjusting or were there any challenges?
LaurenYeah, coming home, I was a mix of emotions. I was grateful. I did some reflection, a little bit of sadness too that my trip had come to an end. I was grateful for everything I had learned and the people I got to meet. I also found myself thinking a lot about the patients and communities we worked with and what their daily realities were. So readjusting back home was a bit of a shift at first. Um, but I've also noticed that I've been more reflective in everyday life and more appreciative of the healthcare resources we have here. So overall, it's been a really grounding experience that I continue to think about daily even after returning.
Dr. HWell, with that reflection, how has it changed your, excuse me, your perspective on our healthcare system? Is there anything that you'll try to incorporate into your your future healthcare practices because of the experience that you've had in Belize?
LaurenYeah, um seeing healthcare in a setting with much fewer doctors, fewer hospitals, and greater barriers to transportation showed me like how much systems and infrastructure impact our patient outcomes just beyond medical knowledge. So it made me more mindful of the importance of again meeting patients where they are, both culturally and practically, and trying to understand broader factors that may affect their ability to receive care. So overall, I've come back with a deeper appreciation for the resources we have in the U.S. and a stronger desire to be a physician who is adaptable and empathetic and aware of these health care disparities when I'm talking with my patients.
Dr. HNow you had this wonderful opportunity to uh be involved in global health. Were you able to come up with any ideas on what are what would be the best way to impact global health in the future, either for yourself or others?
LaurenYeah, I believe the most impactful way to contribute to global health is through long-term partnership and capacity building within communities rather than just short-term, like one-time interventions.
Dr. HAaron Powell You have a lot of ISL teams that come back to the same communities each year. And by doing so, they see the growth and the change in those communities. And and I think what you're sharing is is that's very impactful. You know, continuing to see the growth, connecting with the community, as you said, is is a way of of maintaining that relationship and and and I like that.
Advice For Students Considering A Trip
Dr. HWhat about students that are thinking about a similar trip? I know having dealt with students over the last 15-20 years, a lot of times I see students that are really eager to go. Some are kind of on the fence, some have moms and dads that maybe don't want them to go on the trip. What what would you say? How would you prepare them for the experience?
LaurenWell, if anyone's hesitant or is not thinking about this, I'm going to try to change their mind because everyone needs to experience this trip at least once in their life. So I would tell students to absolutely say yes and go on the trip. Keep an open mind and be realistic with your expectations. It's important to prepare, you know, the basics of what you'll be doing in clinic and also taking time to research the culture and the healthcare system, but really just focus on listening and observing to the professionals once you arrive and paying attention and orientation. Again, packing supplies was good, having a stethoscope, gloves, masks, be ready to work as a team and be humble throughout the experience makes a big difference. Most importantly, I tell them to embrace it all. It challenges you, but it's incredibly rewarding and eye-opening.
Dr. HShould students worry about their food choices? Because I understand that you get to go out and eat in the evenings. Are there enough food choices or are there foods that you probably have never heard of, but you tried and and and liked it?
LaurenYeah. Our ISL leader took us out to dinner, I think, two or three times. And he took us to restaurants with plenty of options. Really beautiful, actually. We ate at um the tallest peak in Belize, overlooking the water and on a cliff. That was really beautiful. And food over there is a lot cheaper than here. So I was eating very well. I was eating steak and potatoes and lobster and a whole bunch of stuff. So There's plenty of options.
Dr. HLauren,
New ISL Social Media Role
Dr. Htell us uh switching gears a little bit, tell us now about your new role with ISL.
LaurenYes, I am very excited to be taking over a social media coordinator for international service learning. With this role, I'm I will run our official Instagram account, hopefully posting real-time content that highlights our service work and all the communities we work with. I will also be coordinating with each service trip team to organize Instagram takeover days where they will share their experiences directly on the ground in the country. So it's been a great way to keep our audience engaged.
Dr. HAnd Lauren, you and I have just discussed a little bit offline about service itself and how do you how would you like the students to better share their service experiences? Because we know we we see a lot of their sharing of recreational activities, which we love because I mean, how cool is it to swim with the sharks and and to go ziplopping and and all that kind of stuff. We we look forward to seeing those, but how better do you believe it would be for students to share their service experiences?
LaurenI think to highlight the service while they're either in clinic or going into the community, just showing us what they're doing while they're over there, because it's hard for us to grasp like what you would I think, you know, ideally what you think of a service learning trip. But being over there is just completely different. And like I said, it's you know, even the structures alone, like when you think of a hospital, you think of a hospital in the US, but a hospital over there is you know just four walls, and you know, that's with our hospital. So just really capturing the environment around you and the people you meet, and you know, highlighting the the experiences that you have from your point of view, because everyone's perspective on the trip is different. So trying to get, you know, unique experience from each and every person.
Dr. HWell, I agree with you. Having been in that hospital that you're mentioning, it it it's hard to describe. I mean, with with the no windows and all open. And I mean, it's we can say it because we've both been there, but I can't envision it unless we'd seen pictures or videos of it. And and yeah, you're right. I think just the everyday routines and the clinics, the the homes, the the roads, everything about daily life, I think would really help to show not only the service piece, but the cultural piece also, which is which is so powerful. So when does that start, your role with ISL?
LaurenI think I'm officially starting today. So from this point forward, be on the lookout. I will be making an introduction post shortly, and every post thereafter is gonna be created by Lauren. Oh good. Or Dr. Hickey.
Dr. HWell good. And I'm I'm glad you're gonna be part of the team. And and so exciting for students to go on these trips. And for those that are that are again on the fence, as as as Lauren shared, you know, get out of your comfort zone. I mean, I've done this, what, 15, 20 years now. Just came back from the National Student Nursing Association convention in Houston. I was so excited to meet so many nursing students that have already been on these trips before or are looking forward to them. And Lauren can share, as I will share, it is life-changing. It is very humbling to be able to go on these trips. And, you know, it may not be affordable for everybody. And and as I share with students when we get back from the trips, you know, we we could have that same experience in our own backyard because we have that same cohort of patients probably within miles of where we're living. But for those that can't afford and can step out of their comfort zone and and do an international trip, it is it is well worth it. And it is it is unforgettable. Lauren, any last words you'd like to share before we uh sign off?
LaurenI would just say do it, guys. If you're on the fence or if it's not something you haven't thought about, definitely do it. It's something you won't forget. And I am honestly looking forward to hopefully going on another one very soon.
Dr. HWell, yeah, and actually, because of uh uh uh Lauren's trip, uh two students on her trip now are gonna be leading their own trips. Lauren was on a fourth-year med student gap year trip. Now we've got two students that were with her, both gap year students, that are leading their own gap year trips. Bryce is gonna be leading a trip to Tanzania, date and time and price and all that yet to be determined. And Ava is gonna be leading a trip back to Belize, actually. Again, date and time and price yet to be determined. I think we should know all that within next week, and it'll it'll all be posted on our website really soon. So
Gap Year Work MCAT And Next Steps
Dr. Hone last thing. You're in your gap here and you're working. Can you share where you're working at now and and what your previous role was and what your new role is?
LaurenYes. So I moved to Charleston last October, and I began as an office assistant for a dermatology practice in Mount Pleasant, and I was there for six months. But but I wanted to get more hands-on clinical experience. So I'm transitioned into a medical assistant role at Charleston Allergy and Asthma. And this has been a really cool experience. This was a new specialty that I haven't really gotten exposure to. It's not talked about much, you know, allergies and immunology, but we do some really cool allergy testing and pulmonary lung function. So it's been really cool to see that. We work with, you know, from babies all the way up to geriatrics. So I'm really excited for it.
Dr. HAs a gap year student, do you recommend your peers to uh do as you're doing, get involved in a in a healthcare role?
LaurenDefinitely, especially if you know you didn't have that much time in undergrad or you felt too rushed to, you know, get a job. It's nice to be postgrad and you know, being able to make my own money and also doing something that I enjoy every day, getting more of a clinical experience. And the doctors know that I'm, you know, applying to medical school. So they're very knowledgeable and they let me go into the rooms with them and I, you know, ask types of questions. So it's been a really good experience for any pre-med.
Dr. HAnd I can share with those listening that Lauren was quite excited last week when she received her MCAT results. So got that done, got that over, now she can relax, right?
LaurenYes, yes. And don't worry, guys, it took it more than once. So don't be panicking over it.
Dr. HWell, you know, uh my experience has been with those that have written uh the MCATs, those that have not done so well or as well as they wanted, when they reflect back on it, it usually because they're just doing so much at that time. You know, multitasking is is I see a lot of students are very prideful of being able to multitask, but when you're studying for the MCATS, you've got to put a block of time out there and just block off the world and and and do it. And if you if you want to put your best foot forward, so to speak.
LaurenYes, no, it's definitely very time-consuming, mentally exhausting to study for the MCAT, but it's just one hurdle you have to get through to, you know, become a doctor, and there's plenty of more, you know, bored and state exams that I'll have to take. So knowing I can do this one makes me feel better about the ones to come.
Dr. HThere you go. Well, listen, Lauren, appreciate your time today. Look forward to working with you on the social media and look forward to following your path forward to med school.
LaurenThank you, Dr. Hickey. You have a good day. You too.
Future Trips Thanks And Closing
Dr. HI want to sincerely thank our guest Lauren for her willingness to join us today on the International Service Learning Experiential Medical Education podcast. But most importantly, I want to thank Lauren for the passion that she has shared with us. Lauren is a great ambassador for both pre-med and gap year students and service learning. Her future patients and their family members will be very privileged to have her as their health care provider. I am hopeful that by sharing details from her service learning trip and now her new role in coordinating social media for ISL, that she will inspire both undergrads and gap year students to step out of their comfort zones and to go forward as far as pursuing a similar opportunity.
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