SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Heart of the Homily Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: My name is Michelle Lopez.
SPEAKER_00: I'm one of your hosts.
SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Father Bagoa.
SPEAKER_00: How are you, Father?
SPEAKER_01: Doing well, Michelle.
SPEAKER_01: Happy New Year.
SPEAKER_00: Happy New Year and Merry Christmas.
SPEAKER_01: Merry Christmas.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: We're in the Christmas season.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful Christmas season.
SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening, hopefully you didn't throw out your tree yet.
SPEAKER_00: But if you did, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00: Next year you can do the full shebang of the Christmas season.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: Which uh today we're actually talking about the Feast of the Epiphany, which was uh this past weekend's readings looking at um the three wise men um coming to visit Mary and Joseph and baby Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: So a beautiful, mysterious, um incredible story in the gospel that we're gonna unpack today.
SPEAKER_00: Um so actually I'm gonna share a little preview of kind of pulling from Father Tomley as well as just conversation points that we're gonna have um about today.
SPEAKER_00: The feast the Epiphany is not about a star or three mysterious figures or a charming ending to Christmas.
SPEAKER_00: It's about revelation, about what happens when God is no longer distant, no longer abstract, but close enough to change everything.
SPEAKER_00: In the moment God reveals Himself, the human heart is forced to decide what it will do next.
SPEAKER_00: Father, that is like a beautiful wrap-up of some of the main points of your homily that I thought were just very powerful and also very um like thought-provoking, very thought-provoking.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this I I I love this homily, I love the epiphany.
SPEAKER_01: Why?
SPEAKER_01: Because it's foundational to who we are and what we believe and the center of everything.
SPEAKER_01: I was teaching my class yesterday.
SPEAKER_01: I I teach once a week at the seminary, and I teach a seminarian, and we were we're talking about evangelization.
SPEAKER_01: I teach a pastoral class, right?
SPEAKER_01: So um, and so we're talking about the from the very beginning.
SPEAKER_01: How does how does evangelization start?
SPEAKER_01: And we began with revelation.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ made word, God made flesh, right?
SPEAKER_01: And the only religion in the world, the only where God reveals himself through his son.
SPEAKER_01: And um what I love about it is that for forever human beings are looking for God, building towers and trying to find God.
SPEAKER_01: And but finally we have a God who says, No, I'm searching for you, I desire you.
SPEAKER_01: And in the fullness of my revelation through my son, you will know life.
SPEAKER_01: You will know the richness of who you are and what you were created for and who I am.
SPEAKER_01: You will know me through my son.
SPEAKER_01: And um, so this fullness of revelation uh in Jesus Christ is revealed to the nations, and that is what we celebrate at Epiphany.
SPEAKER_01: Um so in this homily, I chose to to look at the two roads, that of the magi and that of Herod, and kind of put it out there to the people, which road are you on?
SPEAKER_01: And it's not any judgment, it's um a lot of times I'm on the road to Herod, right?
SPEAKER_01: Or or I'm fascinated and admire the road of the magi.
SPEAKER_01: Um so it's not a question about, do you believe in Jesus or do you believe in the existence of Jesus Christ?
SPEAKER_01: It's more, do I believe that I can be transformed by the power of this revelation, what has been revealed to me.
SPEAKER_01: Um So I think that that's what the question, and I think that that's what people struggle with on a daily basis or weekly when you're coming to mass, is um, am I applying the truths that I'm learning?
SPEAKER_01: What uh what I what I'm able to grasp and meditate on from maybe a homily or from scripture or from the readings from mass.
SPEAKER_01: Am I applying it?
SPEAKER_01: Or is it just one day bleeds into the next?
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm going through the motions, something like what I mentioned in the homily today.
SPEAKER_01: You could be very close to Jesus, but do you kneel his feet?
SPEAKER_01: I could be very close to holy things, but I'm not allowing it to really truly transform me and set me apart, and now I'm different.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
SPEAKER_01: Because God creates sacredness so that we can be sacred, so that we could be holy, right?
SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: I I think that the feast of the Epiphany, what a blessing.
SPEAKER_01: Beginning of the year, great way to start the year.
SPEAKER_01: We started basics, we started at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01: How is revelation changing the way you look at your life, the way you even uh look at discipleship?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think kind of what you're also saying here is that it's something it's personal.
SPEAKER_00: That it's something very per it's personal, like a personal encounter with the living Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And you look at even that the magi, like and even the difference between the magi and Herod is that you know, Herod didn't go see Jesus, right?
SPEAKER_00: You know, but the magi did.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And so the seeking out and the personal encounter with Christ, you know, infant Christ the King.
SPEAKER_00: Um, that that changed everything for them.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's what I the one of the biggest points that you're making is exactly what I was trying to say is you have to make the decision.
SPEAKER_01: This is something personal.
SPEAKER_01: What's the decision that you are gonna make?
SPEAKER_01: And and that that's on so many levels, and it's so detailed and complex because even small decisions affect big ones.
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so it's it's it's that how do I make these decisions that really shape who I am as a son of the father, a daughter of the father?
SPEAKER_01: Um so you're right.
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
SPEAKER_00: And also I love how you're saying that the church gives us this feast at the beginning of the year.
SPEAKER_00: And I think um it's a story that's familiar, right?
SPEAKER_00: But it's told every year so that there's there's a deeper level to go to, but also to make sure that we're making it personal, you know, because um to admire it from afar.
SPEAKER_00: It's a story that we're familiar with, but if we've not entered into it ourselves, then it's flat.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly right, because it's it's very tempting, it's very easy to see a story that we're so familiar with.
SPEAKER_01: It's it's nice and beautiful.
SPEAKER_01: Um Mary and Joseph in a nice little nativity they or crush a scene that you created in your house or at church, and everything looks so perfect and beautiful, but that's far from what the reality, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is born in in a cave where the animals are feeding, and I'm sure it was smelling and dank and uh uh cold, and so it was probably a very miserable place.
SPEAKER_01: So from the get-go, uh Jesus is born in in very dire, uh poor, um not the ideal situation.
SPEAKER_01: Um and so you're right.
SPEAKER_01: There do you we want to make everything so um aesthetically beautiful or or even um uh anesthesize, you know, where you it's just like I don't want cooties, I don't want uh you know, I want everything like perfect.
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's not how life is.
SPEAKER_00: Actually reminds me we got a a nativity um recently, and it's we got an outdoor nativity set to put indoors because it's new, so it's not, you know, it's not dirty yet, so it's kind of like the size of our little girl, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_00: So she like goes into the nativity scene and like looks and plays and kisses baby Jesus and Oh, that's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to highlight it was funny because we got the the set and um I don't know what happened, but Joseph came with like this mark on his face.
SPEAKER_00: And at first I was like, oh my gosh, like what the heck happened?
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, no, Michelle.
SPEAKER_00: That's probably his face is probably much more dirty than that.
SPEAKER_00: Like you know, like even you know, the nativity set is beautiful, but it also that mark now reminds me of like the reality of what I'm seeing, you know, which is like That's a great analogy.
SPEAKER_00: This was a mess.
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is it was a mess.
SPEAKER_00: He had much more than just a little, you know, mark on the face there.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it is like that they don't have the corner shower in your cave, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So um so father, one of the things that you said was that um to the nations, that kind of the Epiphany helps us know that the revelation of God is to the nations.
SPEAKER_00: Can you share what what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01: Well, we see that foreshadowed.
SPEAKER_01: Uh the Jesus Christ is the only religious figure, founder of any religion that is announced, right?
SPEAKER_01: So from the very beginning, uh the prophets in the Old Testament are announcing the coming of the Messiah.
SPEAKER_01: And we see it later on in Paul's letters, we see it all in scripture where Christ doesn't come just for one group, Christ comes for everyone.
SPEAKER_01: And we even see it from the Magi who are these foreigners who are looking at the signs of the times and and looking at everything and saying, wait a minute, maybe this is from God.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe God is acting in our time, and they they're courageous enough to go and to seek and to find, and they do find.
SPEAKER_01: Um but it it's it's what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01: It's it's these foreigners come and from from all of scripture where we're learning it that Christ is not just for one group of people.
SPEAKER_01: I come to save all.
SPEAKER_01: And we see it in the Magi.
SPEAKER_01: And um, and so yeah, I think that that's that that's the beauty of the Epiphany.
SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I was at the Archbishop's office and we would we would always have on the Feast of Nativity, uh, the Epiphany, at the Catal, we have this feast of all the nations where just every I think every language, every cultural group that is representing the Archdiocese of Miami would go to um to the cathedral and we would have uh readings in different languages every year, and prayers of the faithful would be like in 16 different languages or something.
SPEAKER_01: And uh at the end of Mass we have this huge feast where we celebrate all these cultures and different food, and people bring like a potluck where you bring in your favorite meal.
SPEAKER_01: But it was that it was celebrating the nations.
SPEAKER_01: Christ has come for all.
SPEAKER_01: The revelation, the light of the world comes for all nations, not just a group of people.
SPEAKER_01: But we see that that that's being announced from from the beginning when when the Lord re uh when God chooses the Jewish people to reveal his truth and to uh to prophesy for the coming of the Messiah.
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a really wonderful reminder and also um like that Christ comes for all and not just the Christians.
SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00: Like I think it's easy even in our day to be like, oh yeah, like for the Christians.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Like, no, for if you're human, like Jesus came for you.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like you're breathing in your lungs.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you're breathing, um, and I think for for myself, even it kind of like helps me step back and to remember that like it's it's for all people.
SPEAKER_00: Like this gift of faith, this gift of salvation is not just for the people who are in church in the whole world, you know, and how hungry people are for um the discovery of what it means to be human, to to know God.
SPEAKER_01: And and I think you've heard me say this, and there's this real danger of having this spirituality of Jesus and me, right?
SPEAKER_01: It's just Jesus and me and and that mentality of Jesus and me.
SPEAKER_01: That that's dangerous, right?
SPEAKER_01: Because we have to be a church, we have to be a people, we have to be a parish always on mission.
SPEAKER_01: I was talking today at at the Mass, and uh discipleship is very Eucharistic.
SPEAKER_01: It's it's exactly what the gospel for today was in this daily mass uh of where Jesus looks upon the crowd and he sees and he looks at them with pity.
SPEAKER_01: And it's not that he's irritated, it's not that he's annoyed, uh oh what you know, large crowd has come to see me.
SPEAKER_01: No, he he he looks at them with pity because he sees that they are a people without a shepherd, people that are lost, people that are scattered, people that are searching, people that that have this hunger.
SPEAKER_01: And so Christ is looking at them and saying, they don't have a shepherd.
SPEAKER_01: And and even people who come to mass daily, people who practice a faith, people who say their prayers, they also could be lost.
SPEAKER_01: They could also have this deep hunger and and void in their life.
SPEAKER_01: And and a lot of times we need that centering back to what is really important and how can I stay centered, right?
SPEAKER_01: And um, it's it's all part of that because it cannot be this spiritual Jesus in me.
SPEAKER_01: It has to be a very you are Eucharistic people.
SPEAKER_01: So Jesus says, Take inventory, what do you have?
SPEAKER_01: Because he tells his disciples, go feed these people.
SPEAKER_01: We don't have anything.
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't have anything, I don't have any money, I don't even have patience, I don't have wherewithal to do this.
SPEAKER_01: And he says, Well, go find out what do you have?
SPEAKER_01: Well, they come back five loaves, two fish.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you have that?
SPEAKER_01: I can work with that.
SPEAKER_01: What does he do?
SPEAKER_01: He takes it, he breaks it, offers it, and then he gives it back.
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's what our discipleship is.
SPEAKER_01: Take an inventory.
SPEAKER_01: What do you you everyone has something to offer?
SPEAKER_01: What are you offering?
SPEAKER_01: And then the Lord is able to take that, break it open, grace, right?
SPEAKER_01: Whatever movements in in your own life that's happening, you receive that grace, but then it's not for you.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
SPEAKER_01: You have to be on mission, you have to be able to receive that grace that God has given you, and then say, Oh, now I'm a I'm I'm able to go now and feed.
SPEAKER_01: But I can't feed if I'm empty or I don't have anything.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I mean that speaks of of the magi, even, right?
SPEAKER_00: Exactly right.
SPEAKER_00: They brought to Jesus what they had, which was their reason.
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
SPEAKER_00: Their their intellect and their and their sight of earthly tellings of something happening.
SPEAKER_00: And that like using their natural gifting, right?
SPEAKER_00: It led them to this now like spiritual revelation.
SPEAKER_00: Um and they and they left by a different way.
SPEAKER_00: They left changed.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
SPEAKER_01: I mean that that's the great analogy in the sense that uh the Lord again speaks to us saying, Take an inventory, what do you have?
SPEAKER_01: The Magi were smart, they they these were scholars, these were people who who were desiring to know.
SPEAKER_01: And so in that inventory, they know about their fate, they say, Oh, if God is acting, we need to take gold for a king, frankincense for a priest, right?
SPEAKER_01: And then myrrh, because this is the one who's going to come and suffer and die for now.
SPEAKER_01: They may not have not have all that theology, but in some way they knew that those were the important gifts because they did the inventory.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they gave, I mean, those are amazing gifts, you know.
SPEAKER_00: So they offered like their best to to Christ.
SPEAKER_01: Offered their best.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that's also a point that you were kind of making in your homily was um, you know, in our in our giving to Christ, do we have the habit of giving only our leftovers?
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like once I have everything together, then I can give you this, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell So many people do that, and it's not a judgment.
SPEAKER_01: I do it.
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's it's something that it's and we may even do it not knowingly.
SPEAKER_01: It's uh oh, okay, I have this leftover, I can give this to you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Here, here's my leftover.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not just talking about money, it could be your time.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, out of my busy schedule.
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I got three minutes I can give to you or or or my money.
SPEAKER_01: It's you know, I'll go out and spend four hundred dollars uh if you because right now you go to Miami anywhere, it's super expensive, but you go out and spend a a lot of money on on a meal, but then you give two dollars in the collection basket.
SPEAKER_01: Gotta take care of God's church.
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's I think it's it's I that sacrifice, that offatory, tells the Lord your where your priorities are.
SPEAKER_01: And if you if you value more a meal than you do taking care of God's house, which going out is important too, right?
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to diminish that.
SPEAKER_01: I I'm I hope you under I hope people understand what I'm trying to say.
SPEAKER_00: Leisure and all those things are good, but it's the mentality.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Um and and I think also rightly ordering it.
SPEAKER_01: The ordering.
SPEAKER_00: Rightly ordering the gifts of God, right?
SPEAKER_00: Being able to um to know what we do with with our money says something about what we think is important.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So wanting to be intentional about that.
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's another thing too, is people just don't stop and think about it.
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's like we gotta take account of our life, and that's the beauty of New Year's um a new year that you know our culture does even is New Year's resolutions.
SPEAKER_00: It's a new time.
SPEAKER_00: Um and so I think this invitation from the church of looking at um the epiphany and really even like asking for our own personal epiphany, you know.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_00: That we would that God would open up our eyes and that the light would be shown on on our life to know the direction we should head, you know, for this new year.
SPEAKER_01: The direction, which I love.
SPEAKER_01: And and you mentioned it a little bit uh a a couple uh seconds back there saying they went home by a different route.
SPEAKER_01: And I've always loved what Archbishop Fulton Sheen, when he breaks open this gospel, he says he goes, but of course, he's like you know, he's very dramatic, but of course they go home by a different way.
SPEAKER_01: No one comes to Christ and goes back the same way.
SPEAKER_01: You don't go back the same road.
SPEAKER_01: Uh let's say that you've been not a good person, not really dis disappointing the Lord, whatever it is, and you finally come to this realization of who Christ is, the revelation who Christ is, and then you desire and you decide, right?
SPEAKER_01: That personal we were talking about earlier, you decide to change.
SPEAKER_01: I want integrity in my life, I want to be different, I wanna, I just wanna be new and I wanna be proud of who I am in the in the face of God that I can make God proud in my life.
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not gonna walk the same walk that I've been doing before.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna walk a different way, and that's what Fulton Sheen was saying.
SPEAKER_01: Of course the magi went home by a different way.
SPEAKER_01: Um why?
SPEAKER_01: Because no one comes to Christ and is not transformed or or or changed.
SPEAKER_01: And um I think that that's a beautiful, beautiful analogy because I know you know people in your life, I know people in my life that uh have had major conversions, like night and day kind of conversions, uh, some people gradual conversions, but you do see uh very in your face beautiful conversions of people that say, I don't want to be like I was.
SPEAKER_01: I want to walk differently, I want to talk differently, I want to change my language, I don't want to be judging, I don't I want to practice a faith, I want to go to confession.
SPEAKER_01: Um really dramatic steps to not be the way that you were before.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And I think the epiphany teaches that.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the key factors is giving God permission to work like that.
SPEAKER_00: You know, and because I feel like there's a little bit of self-reliance usually when we feel like we have to change, like we have to do it, but being able to be like, Lord, I want to change and you do it.
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the whole you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01: Uh you're touching on something that was Herod's problem.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
SPEAKER_01: I want it all on my terms.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna control this.
SPEAKER_01: The coming of the Messiah was not good news for Herod.
SPEAKER_01: God's nearness was not good news.
SPEAKER_01: Why?
SPEAKER_01: Because it was a threat.
SPEAKER_01: He saw God as a rival.
SPEAKER_01: And so I want to be able to control my situation, control everything around me.
SPEAKER_01: And um, so yeah, I don't need to really see that Messiah.
SPEAKER_01: I don't you you come back and you tell me so I can go kill him, you know.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: But uh but how many of us are on that road of Herod where it's we want to control every aspect.
SPEAKER_01: Even good at good things, even good things, right?
SPEAKER_01: Like uh just control every aspect of our lives and be able to say, Oh, I'm a disciple, I'm walking in the faith, I do my Bible study, I do this.
SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm not judging.
SPEAKER_01: Um we're trying to teach, we're trying to break open, we're trying to hopefully highlight someone's life and say, Hey, I do that.
SPEAKER_01: But it's not judgment, it's let's break it all open.
SPEAKER_01: So we can kind of epiphany, right?
SPEAKER_01: So it's it hopefully someone says, Oh ding ding ding, um I'm doing that.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And also like you mentioned, we have both of that.
SPEAKER_00: And we have Herod and the Magi within us.
SPEAKER_00: And that's the beauty of the stories of the gospel, is like it's not to be like, oh no, I'm on the right path and I'm great.
SPEAKER_00: It's always to highlight like that we have a little mix of both that tension within us, and these stories help to bring them to light to make choices.
SPEAKER_01: To make choices.
SPEAKER_00: And I think even with the story of of Herod, um what we were talking about, kind of like this hardness of heart of um not wanting to be out of control and not wanting to change, you know.
SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's a lot of struggle.
SPEAKER_00: I know I've struggled with that in many different ways, um, in my own story, but even in different moments now I see that that's still within me, you know, where I struggle to really um give God permission to change things because I want to be more comfortable or I want to um, you know, don't want to let go of things that I think are gonna um make me happy.
SPEAKER_01: But think about it how many t podcasts we've done now, which so grateful for all the the podcasts we have.
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of the themes, a lot of these homilies uh go back to the same thing.
SPEAKER_00: But it's said in a different way, Father.
SPEAKER_00: Exactly like the gospel.
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be said over and over again, but different ways, different angles.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I know you've mentioned before, like, are we just saying the same stuff?
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, we probably are, but in a different tone.
SPEAKER_01: But what I want to say is um, which you're right, um but today I see it a little bit different in the sense that um we're constantly having to address that demon, right?
SPEAKER_01: Or that that that that thorn that Paul talks about.
SPEAKER_01: That what is it?
SPEAKER_01: And it and then and for a lot of us it's not relinquishing control.
SPEAKER_00: We're control freaks.
SPEAKER_01: We're control freaks.
SPEAKER_01: And I think our society kind of makes us that way.
SPEAKER_01: Our American way makes us that way in the sense that we want everything so organized and perfect, and uh uh so I want to be able to see the future, what's the roadmap?
SPEAKER_01: Um I don't want to do anything by chance, uh but it that that doesn't leave room uh room for God's grace, it doesn't leave room for um just for the mystery and and to be able to step back and say, well, do I really truly trust in you?
SPEAKER_01: I trust in you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: Um there's a lot to say, as you said, as we begin this new year, and well, where what are these some of these areas?
SPEAKER_01: Uh is control the biggest thing where um every aspect of every part of my life needs to be in check.
SPEAKER_01: And if it's not, then I'm questioning the Lord and I'm doubting the Lord or I'm putting this or that into question.
SPEAKER_01: Oh Lord, you're against me, or you're not working with me, or I don't feel your presence, or you're not listening to my prayers.
SPEAKER_01: This flip-flop of how I celebrate the faith or or even my spirituality is not this constant because I'm not emotionally well or I'm not spiritually mature to really get to a place where it's a stable, it's a it's a constant.
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's where maturity and faith grows when you can see that your faith is a constant.
SPEAKER_01: Because if you're seeing that it's a flip-flop where you're going to these very deep valleys and uh struggling with the faith and questioning and anger and whatever it is, and you acknowledge it, name it, claim it, and say, all right, I got I have to grow.
SPEAKER_01: I have some uh there's some space here that needs to be addressed and um to move forward with that.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_01: I think that we are talking a lot of these themes lead us back to control, the ego, um, whatever it is that that's underlying the pride, these big, big sins that cause other little sins or big sins um to kind of throw us off from our path to discipleship.
SPEAKER_01: But if we can name it, claim it, like I like we talked about a little bit earlier, okay, take inventory of what I do have to offer, even if it's a small thing, what do I have to offer so that then Christ can receive that, bless it, allow give us the grace or or or grant the grace to then for us to um go out and feed someone else.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so good.
SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing that comes to mind as you were sharing, you said like to let go of pride, and I think what we're looking at with Epiphany is um like such an act of humility on the part of the magi.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I was just getting like an image of like the magi are bowing down to a baby.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And there's some like again, it looks really cute in the manger scene and all that, but um like what humility and what trust that they found what they were searching for, even though it might not have looked like what they thought, you know, but like um yeah, uh to to honor and imagine, imagine I love what you're saying because uh in my own mind's eye I'm thinking, here's the magi, they're coming with gifts of gold and frankincense.
SPEAKER_01: These are costly things in back of the day, right?
SPEAKER_01: They're decked out, they're on their camels, and probably the whole uh you know, whole team of people that they travel with.
SPEAKER_01: And these people travel with tents and things like that that they just set up and and they're thinking, this star is gonna land on this big old palace.
SPEAKER_00: Wait, it's not Herod's house, you know that Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And and the star lands in a cave where animals feed, and you're and the the Magi are like, what?
SPEAKER_01: And um, and then you you imagine them kneeling before a baby.
SPEAKER_01: God has been revealed to us through this baby.
SPEAKER_01: Um that's humility.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01: And then to offer your gifts because you could say, Okay, we were wrong.
SPEAKER_01: Everybody back on your camels.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to the comfy palace.
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, maybe the star is off a little bit.
SPEAKER_01: Um no, they find the baby in the arms of a mother.
SPEAKER_00: It's so simple.
SPEAKER_01: That same baby who's gonna be in a high chair is the same baby who is gonna one day get up on a cross and die and offer his life for the salvation of all.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Such humility.
SPEAKER_00: And last thing that just comes to mind just with this image that you painted was um it just shows how much God loves our humanity that he became one of us.
SPEAKER_00: I just like I just marvel at that.
SPEAKER_00: Like God loves this, you know, like his idea, our humanity, but also like he loves it so much that in his plan of salvation, like he becomes one of us.
SPEAKER_00: And like that's the way he decides to save us is to invite himself to us.
SPEAKER_01: You're you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01: And and something that I saw, I I I heard Christophonic once say, which is so amazing, is is exactly what you're saying, that he in his humanity, how he how God loves each and every single one of us.
SPEAKER_01: If you Chris was Christophonic was saying, like, you know, if if I'm God and and I send my only son and I'm gonna do a miracle, it's gonna be lightning bolts and come down as I am God.
SPEAKER_01: But what does God do?
SPEAKER_01: He his first miracle, it's he turns water into wine.
SPEAKER_01: Who cares, right?
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's basically to help this couple not be embarrassed, and uh but he does it why because you matter.
SPEAKER_01: This is a huge thing for you.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not for the world, who cares?
SPEAKER_01: I mean and then he goes and he raises someone from the dead, hey, get up.
SPEAKER_01: Some guy who 40 years is gonna die again, but who cares?
SPEAKER_01: I mean, nobody knows.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't some famous person or some rich man or no, it was this guy that it was just okay, I'm gonna raise you from the dead.
SPEAKER_01: And um, and and I think it's beautiful in the sense that because I came for you, every single one of you matters to me.
SPEAKER_01: And I love you.
SPEAKER_01: And and it's it's not for the rich or not famous, it's it's for what you were talking about earlier about it's it's we humble before a God who loves us, who truly loves us.
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I was teaching in class the other day is is uh we're we're talking about God is love.
SPEAKER_01: It's not that God has love, it's not that God has an attribute of love, God is love.
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things we were talking about is that to to really understand how radical that is when Jesus begins to talk about that.
SPEAKER_01: Because in in in the ancient times, people you only love people that were in your immediate family.
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
SPEAKER_01: You don't you didn't do things for other people, you didn't go out and say, Oh, I love you, or let me go and do this for you.
SPEAKER_01: You just didn't do that.
SPEAKER_01: And so to go back again and say, I love you, you, the person, you, not the it didn't have you don't have to do anything for me, you don't have to be rich, you don't have to be powerful.
SPEAKER_01: No, I I came to save you.
SPEAKER_01: And that personalization we've been talking about, um, where we then say, I choose you, Christ.
SPEAKER_01: My decision today is to be the very best I can be, to stay away from those things that don't lead me to you, to really be active and not uh not just to be one day bleeds into the next, but to really be a person that is conscious and making intentional decisions to follow Christ in a very concrete way.
SPEAKER_01: How can I feed?
SPEAKER_01: How can I go out on mission?
SPEAKER_01: It has to be conscious, it has to be, you could have the most important job in the world.
SPEAKER_01: It could be whatever.
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean anything if you're not centering your life on discipleship, intentional discipleship, where you're taking inventory of who you are, what are my gifts, what can I offer, and then you're able to really truly receive that grace and then go out on mission.
SPEAKER_01: That's what it is.
SPEAKER_01: Why?
SPEAKER_01: Because he comes to save us, every single one.
SPEAKER_00: Because we're worth it to him.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because he loves us.
SPEAKER_00: Again, that it it's it's personal.
SPEAKER_01: It's personal.
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think as we kind of wrap up our conversation, um, I think a great invitation for all of us is um, you know, even looking at like have have we had some personal epiphanies, you know, that we really feel like God's light shone into God's light shone into our life in a powerful way that brought like revelation.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And if not, we should ask for it.
SPEAKER_00: We should ask for it.
SPEAKER_01: We gotta ask for it.
SPEAKER_00: And over and over again, like, Lord, reveal yourself to me.
SPEAKER_00: Like I and ask for Him to do that work of of transformation to get it.
SPEAKER_01: But there's gotta be a cost to it.
SPEAKER_01: So nothing is w i there has to be a sacrifice because then if if it hurts, if it's painful, there's gonna be transformation.
SPEAKER_01: It means something.
SPEAKER_01: And so, Lord, allow that light to shine in my in my life, but then do something with it.
SPEAKER_01: Be intentional to change and to not go back the same way, but to go home by a different route.
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that home is the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
SPEAKER_00: So I hope you enjoyed our conversation.
SPEAKER_00: Um if you'd like to listen to Father's Homily or to read the readings, um, we invite you to go to our website to check them out or our podcast.
SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to um seeing you all again next week.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Father, for this great discussion.
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Michelle.
SPEAKER_01: It's been fun.
SPEAKER_01: One more time.
SPEAKER_01: All right, God bless you.
SPEAKER_01: Take care.