All Things Licensing with Sarah Taylor - Episode 27, The Last Safe Space

The Last Safe Space a straight-talking, data-driven podcast from Music Venue Trust. Each episode breaks down the biggest news affecting the UK’s grassroots music venues - from government policy to local wins, campaigns, crisis cases, and how you can take action to support live music.

In this episode of The Last Safe Space, Toni sits down with Sarah Taylor - licensing specialist and MVT Guru - to unpack the hidden systems that shape whether grassroots music venues survive or disappear. From noise complaints and licensing reviews to redevelopment pressures and late-night policy, Sarah explores the legal challenges venues face just to keep the lights on. Drawing on more than 15 years of experience supporting hospitality and live music spaces across the UK, Sarah reflects on the growing pressures facing independent venues - and why trust, communication, and community are often key to keeping culture alive.

Disclaimer: All data is correct on the date of filming 22/04/2026

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome back to another episode of The Laughs Dave Space. This is a podcast by Music Venue Trust, and my name is Tony. I'm going to be your host today, and this is a space where we talk about the rooms that hold our music, our communities, and the cultural ecosystems that allow music to thrive. When we talk about grassroots music venues, they often talk about atmosphere, discovery, and community. But behind every venue door, there is also a huge amount of unseen work that makes these spaces possible. There are licenses to secure, regulations to navigate, hearings to attend, objections to respond to, and systems that can often feel stacked against independent venues trying to survive. So today's guest is someone who works right at the centre of that world. This is Sarah Taylor, who is a specialist lawyer, partner at Keystone Law, is that right? And one of Music Venue Trust's excellent gurus. She advises on hospitality and live music venues across the UK, on licensing law, strategy, and the regulatory challenges that can determine whether a venue stays open, adapts, and survives.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Is that a fairly That's a fair introduction? Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

No, thank you for coming. And um, you know, you've got 15 years experience, right, helping helping venues navigate most of the complex and restrictive uh licensing environments in the country, including cumulative impact zones. Yep, very difficult, stress areas and highly regulated city centres. So thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for coming down today. You already give so much of your time supporting our membership. And um, I think it's really important that people at home see the faces uh of uh the people that are yeah donating their work, doing the pro bono work to to actually secure these venues and keep them protected for future.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Well, it's important that we we do as much as we can, and uh you know it's it's really difficult out there, particularly since the pandemic. It was difficult before for grassroots uh live music venues, but I think since then it's just been increasingly difficult for lots of reasons, which I'm sure we'll talk about on this podcast. But um, yeah, music, live music in particular is really close to my heart. So um the stars aligned, I guess, and I I um met Sophie uh and a few of the other gurus, and then um I joined the guru panel.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Thank you. Sophie is our uh venue support manager, and so she gets to work with the uh lovely girus um probably more than the rest of the team, and we've got so many fantastic people that that offer their services for free in order to keep venues safe. So thank you for being one of those, Sarah. Um, I know that so many venues have got a lot of support from you. So I just wanted to kind of start with you and your story. So you've you've built a career in a really specialized area of law, so um helping hospitality and live music venues navigate licensing and and regulatory challenges. So, what kind of like first drew you into wanting to do this kind of work?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

What drew me to to law in particular? I've had a bit a bit of a sort of weaved path to to where I'm at now. So um I've done all kinds of different jobs. I I pretty much started work as soon as I was able, I wanted to get out there and and into the world. So um I started off actually as more of a creative. I was a photographer for eight years before I trained to be a lawyer. Um, and with that I would do sort of your traditional weddings and and um family-based uh photography, but I also did events as well and quite enjoyed that. But even before that, on the music level, I've been going to gigs since I was nine. Um I grew up in quite a musical household, music was everywhere, it was always playing. Um, and again, I got out to gigs as soon as I was able, really. Um, and I love all types of music, there's not really anything um that I don't like in terms of genre, so um, I'll pretty much go along to any gig if asked. Um, so I was very fortunate that I did my studies. I didn't really know what kind of area um I wanted to do. Licensing was kind of this abstract uh concept. So I went for an interview after law school at a licensing law firm, and pretty much all I could say in the interview was that I like to eat and drink. That was basically my experience of licensing and hospitality, um, and obviously gig going as well. And I I go to a lot of festivals also. Um, so that was it really. Again, I suppose the stars just aligned, and and that was it. So I um I started work at that firm. I was only ever meant to be a temporary paralegal, and then 13 years later, as I left, I'd been a partner for four years. Wow. Um so I branched off on my own in 2023. I joined um Keystone, so we're all self-employed, we're consultants basically. Um, and it's just given me, it's opened up a whole world of different types of of work, and it's just given me that freedom to work with people that I want to work with and also give my time to charities and and the like. So that's how it all happened, really.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Amazing. So you didn't ever really choose licensing. Do you feel like it chose you? It chose me, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

But it was the right fit. I mean, I love what I do. I do it not only sort of day-to-day, but also, you know, I go out a lot and I go to lots of geeks and festivals. So, um, the one thing I will say is when you do this job, you don't fully relax on a night out. You're always kind of looking at it sounds really geeky, but notices behind bars and what door staff are doing, and you know, how the queue's being managed, and is the sound really loud and what are the neighbours thinking, which I'm sure we'll talk about later on.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

But uh it doesn't sound uh uh like that at all to me because having uh being a back, you know, my background is in working for grassroots music venues. I used to work at the boiler room in Guildford and and Green Door store in Brighton. And even going to the venue on a day off when you're not working, you're still like looking at empty glasses and checking that the fire exit is not blocked, and you just your brain doesn't switch off from that. So I totally understand. So so you have a personal relationship to live music then? Definitely. What what kind of music are you into?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I like everything. So I grew up with parents who listened to everything from Fleetwood Mac to Simply Red to Lyle Ritchie to the Eagles to just everything. Um, I don't care if it's cool, I don't care if it's cheesy, if I like it, I will listen to it. I think my first gig I went to was Robin, so real pop when I was like nine or something. She just dropped a new album, as a two. She has still going strong. Um, and then from that, um, I am an 80s baby growing up in the 90s, so for me it was not only rock bands but also dance and electronic music. So I'm a I'm a raver. Nice. Um, so I go to loads of both here and abroad, um live music venues, festivals, etc., for for dance and electronic music. That's that's where my heart is.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It's always every type. Always nice finding out what kind of music people are into. It's uh it's really interesting. We have a very varied taste amongst the NBT. You can imagine us trying to share a speaker in the office.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Exactly, yeah, all trying to who who manages the playlist.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

We often have to just go for the radio. Yeah, that's it, and then everybody gets their share.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

So let's go into the licensing a little bit more. So for people outside the sector, licensing can sound quite dry and technical. Um, but in reality, it can decide whether a venue can trade, um, what hours it can operate, what kind of events it can host, and in some cases whether it can even survive at all. Exactly. Um, so for listeners who may not know much about that side of the industry, can you just explain what licensing actually means in practical terms for a venue, if that's if that's okay?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I can. Um so a premises license is required by any business that provides licensable activities. So they are obviously the sale of alcohol. Um, I think what there can be a tendency sometimes for people to not realise is also music, so live music, recorded music, um, playing of films, performances of dance are all licensable activities. Um, late-night refreshment, which is sale of alcohol between 11 pm and 5am the following morning. That's a licensable activity. Um, obviously sale of alcohol, and then opening hours are also regulated on premises licenses as well. Um, so if you're providing any of those activities, you need to obtain a premises license. Um, it is an application form. Lots of people say to me it's just a form, um, if only. Um, there's lots of things that go into it. You have to get plans drawn up of your premises, you have to put certain things on those plans, so that can be quite technical. Um but aside of that, you're filling your application form with your timings activities, what you want basically, but you've also got to put together what we call an operating schedule, um, which is basically a list of conditions of how the premises will operate. So once that's all together, that goes in, your application goes in, you've got a consultation period. Um, during that time, people can make objections, and they do. Um, yeah, they do. Um, so that can be anybody. You might have the authorities such as the police, you might have the licensing authority object into an application, um, fire authority if they've got concerns about public safety and exit strategy, etc. Um, environmental health as well is quite a common one, and and increasingly I'm seeing more and more um residential complaints about licence venues. Um, so when you're doing the sort of initial um new licence application, if that's what's necessary, that will sort of give you a picture of of the area, what you're up against if you've got local residents, because everybody tends to kind of put their head above the parapet at that point, and then you become aware of of what's surrounding a venue. Um, but it's quite important, I would say, to do the pre-work before you put an application in. So um take advice early, um, try and speak to the authorities early. If you've got neighbours that are nearby, you know, meet with them, say hi, make sure that they know what you're trying to do, try and build that relationship with them so that you build trust from the outset. Because if you get to a point where you've got a contentious application for, say, late hours and live music in an area that's in the middle of London, you've got a mixture of residents and commercial, um, the worst thing you can do is stick your head in the sand and just pretend it will all be fine without any engagement with the authorities and residents beforehand. Um, so it's always better to try and have that dialogue. Um, it usually does then head off any problems later on, or at least makes it easier to negotiate. Um, so that's really the application process. Once that consultation period is run, if you've got objections, we call them representations, but effectively they're objections, to an application, and you're not able to negotiate those by, for example, reducing hours or making changes to the hours or activities, um, or to agree conditions, additional ones with whoever's objected, then it's scheduled for a hearing before a licensing subcommittee at the council. So that's generally three councillors and a legal advisor and a few other officers from the council. Everybody then gets a chance to make their submissions about why the application should be granted, or the objectors say why it perhaps shouldn't be granted, or conditions should be amended. Um, and then it's down to a committee to make a decision on that, whether they grant it, whether they refuse it, or whether they modify aspects of the application in order to grant it. Um, so it's not an overly long process. Once everything's kind of in place and the application's gone in, it's a 28-day period. Um, once that's closed, if it's scheduled for a hearing, you've got another roughly a month after that. So so generally two months, but the pre-work can take just as long before the application goes in. So um, yeah, it can be quite complex depending on on the type of venue and where it's located.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, so I mentioned before that I used to work at the boiler in Guildford, and it's actually unfortunately right in a residential area. So I did go through a licence review with them, and it was rough, you know, it was a really difficult time for the venue and all the staff in it. Yeah. Um, and I think also if you go through something like a licence review, it can completely scupper your programming timing. So you're putting all of your energy into the actual review and you're not programming the gigs, so then you're getting a double whammy in terms of like workload. Yes. Um, it's rough. Um, I guess um I'm interested in knowing, you know, whether there's a bit of a trend in terms of like uh what what are the most common licensing issues that are coming up for you? Is it noise complaints or yes?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, I think so. I mean, incidents, they I always say to committee and also to the authorities in meetings, there isn't a premises in the land that at some point won't have some sort of incident or issue. Um, whether that's a city centre venue or whether it's a country pub, there will always be something. Um, the real merits are in how you deal with it and how you address it and what you do to try and mitigate things happening in the first place. Um, I think the most common thing I'm seeing, particularly at the moment, is noise complaints and quite an abundance of noise abatement notices as well being served by councils, um, which is difficult for operators because it means an appeal in most circumstances, which goes to the magistrates' court. So again, it can be quite a long process, it can be quite expensive. Um, but reviews as well, that I've seen an uptick in reviews born out of residential noise complaints. Because what happens is we get developments that are right next to um commercial premises, live music venues, hospitality venues. Um, and naturally there's that mix of people that want to go out and have a good time and listen to music, and also people that want to live in a vibrant area but don't want it to be too vibrant. So it's it's that constant conflict between the two, and and ultimately you can't always keep everybody happy. Um, so yeah, I've seen quite an increase in in the number of review applications, and you're right, it is rough and it is it's difficult to manage because once the review is in, there's not really any way to stop it. Um, you have to defend it. And again, you've got that consultation period where other people can join in. So although it may be one resident that's that's brought the review, everybody else has then got the opportunity, if they've also got an issue with a venue to join in. So um, what can start as one issue can sort of spring out into lots of others, and then suddenly, like you say, all your time is spent getting to the bottom of what's happened, trying to mitigate it, you know, trying to put your best foot forward, um, changing conditions, looking at policies, procedures, you know, your dispersal plan or installing a noise limiter, and then and and again it can springboard into lots of expense for venues because you get the likes of um Richard Vivian, for example, who's one of our great MVT gurus, um, an acoustic consultant, quite often with residential complaints, it's necessary to get people like Richard in as well as lawyers to deal with a review because you need to be able to measure noise output, noise disturbance. Are the residents being disturbed or not? So there's quite a lot of work that's involved, and again, it's not the choice of an operator at that point to try and improve what's on their premises license or to promote the business, it's really something that's imposed upon them because somebody says there's been an issue, so it can be quite difficult and quite costly.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, it's it's tricky as well because you know, if agent of change was a thing, then developers would be responsible for making sure that um they were soundproofing these spaces because a lot of the time they're like blocks of flats that have been put next to a venue and they put no soundproofing in, they've done everything really cheaply. So the sound is obviously um um travelling in in quite a dramatic way. And to go back to the boiler room case, we you know we were doing everything we could to manage the sound from the top level, but unless you're acoustics specialist, you don't know how it's travelling. And I think for us at that time it was travelling like underneath the basement. Exactly. So it's like rattling the house next door, yeah. Um so yeah, there's so much to it, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

There is, and it's a really especially with acoustics, it's really specialised. I mean, I get reports that um I'll submit either as part of a new application or or if there's been a review. Um, and obviously over time I've kind of gotten to know the terms and things, but I think if you're completely new to it, a lot of it it makes no sense because it is so so specialist. Um, but yes, there's a lot of um complications, there's a lot of things that operators don't always think about necessarily when they first open a venue, because you I always say to committees, again, you sometimes you don't know what you don't know at the outset. Um and it's only once you're opening you're doing the activities that you want to do that you find out whether it's an issue or not. Um, just an agent of change as well, um, a planning concept, but it has been put into our guidance to the licensing act 2003. So it is there within the guidance, and I do think that committees are becoming more alive to the fact that there needs to be this balance. Um, but it's very difficult because as you've said, you know, you get developers that that promise the earth and say that they will do all of these things, and then actually by the time residents have moved in and a venue's operated and we found it's a problem, developers are long gone and and everybody else is left to deal with the fallout, unfortunately. Yeah, it's it's really tricky.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

We've been talking about agent of change for like over ten years. Yeah.

unknown 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

And just keep trying to apply that pressure and keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

But yeah, it's really difficult to get that balance, and and obviously there's more demand for city centre housing with that vibrancy around, but it's it's striking that balance between everybody sort of being able to do what they want to do and also residents having the ability to live in peace, but but ultimately there's got to be a compromise because if you live in a city centre, yeah, you know, you don't get all the vibrancy of a city centre without noise.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yes, exactly. Otherwise, you need to go live a in a field somewhere. Yeah. Um, so whenever any comes to you for help, um, is it usually because they're applying for something new or they're trying to vary an existing license, or is it normally because they're dealing with a challenge or a you know disruption?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

All of the above. So it can be anything really. I I get all kinds of queries and and all kinds of new work from um I've got a brand new premises, it's got no licence, I need to obtain one. So that's something that that I do regularly. Um, to operators who have opened, traded for a period of time. And again, it's it's difficult, particularly with event spaces and music venues, because if you're new in a particular area and you end up being really successful, that's a good thing that we should promote. But it sometimes necessitates that you need extended hours or you need to change conditions that are on your license. Um, and I think that the issue is you know, you you start and you trade in accordance with with what you've got, but it's sometimes not apparent until six, twelve months, eighteen months later that actually you need to to make an application to change what's already on your licence because it just doesn't work. Um and by that point, it's it's that test of uh what do the residents around you think of the way that you operate, what do the authorities think of the way um that you operate, and ultimately if you then put a variation in to change things, that's the test of of how well it's gone, really. Um, because at that point, if you get objections, then you know um there's potentially more work to be done. But yeah, it's a mixture of all of the above. So it's it's brand new licenses, it's it's varying existing ones, and unfortunately, and and more latterly, I would say, in the last few years, a big uptick in enforcement action and reviews.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah, it's such a shame to hear. You're always hoping things will improve, but uh I mean hopefully they will at some point. Um, so a lot of grassroots venues uh feel like they're operating in an increasingly difficult environment, which is totally fair, especially in towns and cities where you know the development pressures are growing and local authorities are you know that they're under competing pressures, aren't they? So you specialise in contentious licensing um applications and in securing outcomes in difficult and highly regulated areas. So, from your perspective, how challenging has the licensing environment become for grassroots venues?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Very, very much so, I think. So councils have um what we call cumulative impact zones, sometimes known as stress zones, within their licensing policy. Um, so that is essentially a designation of an area which is at what we call saturation point, i.e., there's a presumption that they won't grant any more licenses or any more variations unless an operator can demonstrate that they won't undermine the licensing objectives. So they are prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public nuisance, protection of children from harm. So they're the four things that operators have to promote under their premises licence. Um, so councils again have become more alive to residential issues, and again, they've got a balancing act because they also deal with the planning regime as well. Um, and it's trying to find that balance to please everyone. But I think it's it's difficult because councils will designate a particular area as a saturation zone and say no more. But what happens is then we tend to get more venues outside of that, so then issues will then accumulate potentially in other areas. Um and what you end up sometimes is with what was a cumulative impact zone historically, where you've not got that many venues left because others have moved out, and then you get issues elsewhere. So councils have to review their um cumulative impact policies every five years and just make sure, based on evidence, usually from the police, um, that they're still fit for purpose. But um, I mean there's there's been rumblings in the press, and and you'll have seen various um releases from the government, you know, um the mayor's office has done a lot of work in in relation to to licensing and hospitality to try and cut that red tape and just make life easier. Um, but unfortunately, particularly in London, the fact is it is in some areas still very, very difficult. In fact, where we're sitting now um is a notoriously difficult area to get any extended hours or or to make any changes. So um, yeah, it's just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

And I would say it's one of the most exciting places in London as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

So I agree. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

It feels strange that you can have such this, like you say, vibrant, buzzy area with all these cool things going on and it yeah, they're being limited.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I have to say though, to to put a positive spin on it, I think um all of the recent sort of noises and reports and the task force that the government have put together, all of their recommendations. There does feel finally like something's starting to shift. I would agree with that too. There's more positivity out there, I think. And I think councils, to be fair to them, are starting to recognise that it's it's time that there was a shift. Um and I've had quite a few results recently where I've got great clients that have really put the work in. Um, but I've had to say to them when we've gone into a hearing, look, you know, we've done all we can, but that ultimately there's no guarantee as there isn't with anything in life. Um and we've come out with some pretty good results, which I know if we'd been in the same position maybe three or four years ago, perhaps wouldn't have been the case. So yeah, definite reasons for positivity, and I think definitely a shift in in the landscape. Absolutely. Hopefully it continues.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah, I hope so. Um so when a when a venue is facing a noise objection, um, sorry, an objection around noise, um, conduct conduct, sorry, or alleged breaches, what usually makes a difference between a manageable situation or or one that feels like it could be quite serious?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Um, good question. So lots of factors really. Um first and foremost, my advice is always try and build a relationship with the neighbours, try and at least have that.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

That seems so simple, but it makes total sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

It's so simple, but so many people are either scared to do it or and to be fair, sometimes can't do it because some residents are just not open to having that dialogue. Um but I suppose it's like any relationship, it's got to be give and take on both sides. And and you know, if you have to coexist next door to each other, it makes sense that you get together and and talk about the fact there's an issue and what you could potentially do to address it. Um so first and foremost, I always recommend talking, just you know, communicate uh with your neighbours and also for residents to communicate with venues, hospitality venues, be it a bar, restaurant, nightclub, whatever it is, um if they're having problems with them. Because once you get into review territory or appeals as well, you know, it's it's really contentious, it can be quite unpleasant, and lots of these things can be solved by just having a simple conversation to get to the bottom of what is the issue and and what practical things can we put in place to do that. That feels like just good advice for life, really, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's good, it is good life advice, but it carries through into what we do. Um, in terms of other things, sort of practical measures, it it really depends, but um a lot of the advice I will give will come down to let's look at the basics. So, is your dispersal policy a problem? Have we got people gathering outside? Not necessarily noise from gigs or from music, but it might be people noise. Um, so there's lots of things that we can look at there, just simple fixes. So a change to a dispersal policy, for example. Even with music, basic things like changing the location of the speakers, you know, not putting them on brackets on a certain wall if we know that somebody's next door, yeah. Um, changing the direction of the speakers or you know, simple fixes within. Um, and then I suppose beyond that, once we've looked at have we spoken to the neighbours and established what is wrong and and can we foster a good relationship with them? Um practical measures, policies, procedures, conditions, etc., I would look at that. Then I'd look at physical measures within a venue, um but speakers with noise limiters sometimes, although we don't like those. Um but that sometimes is an option. Um, and then beyond that, you get into the sort of more complex and more expensive um uh things to consider, such as uh you know, the physical makeup of the building, do they need to install soundproofing, etc. But that's kind of top end, and that's where it gets really expensive. So my advice is talk, um, do do the easy stuff, the basics. Um look at the easy wins, look at the things that are cheaper from an operator's point of view to do and see if that fixes it before you then progress into you know the acoustic consultants and sound limiters and and uh acoustic works that you'd have to do because ultimately that then spirals cost. And a lot of operators are struggling at the moment, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, absolutely. And your your work isn't just advisory, is it? Because you spend a lot of time working with councils and police and uh other authorities to sort of find those practical solutions and negotiate uh the workable outcomes. How important is that collaborative side of your job? So important.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

I would imagine it's yeah, very I think it's probably one of the most important things we can do. So having that relationship with the authority, you know, the majority of council officers, the majority of police officers, the majority of environmental health officers don't want to say you can't do this. The majority of the ones that I work with want to encourage, but obviously they've got a job to do and they have to make sure that um everything's balanced and that the licensing objectives are ultimately promoted. Um, what they don't want to do is allow a venue to open and then it causes an issue that they've got to then spend more resources on because again, councils are stretched at the moment as well. Um so yeah, the majority I do find you can foster a good relationship with them, you can work with them. Um ultimately, where we run into problems, quite often it comes down to resources because there are only so many officers that can do so many things. Yeah. Um but yeah, absolutely vital as an operator that you you again you try and foster that relationship, not only with local residents, but also with with officers as well. Because ultimately, if you do run into a problem, then they're more inclined to be able to try and help you rather than hinder. So, again, an easy win, just have that conversation, build that relationship, you know, talk makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

So, if we just very quickly touch on like a case study, and we won't name any specific names, but one example of your work that you that really speaks to the pressures facing venues is a venue in Coventry, and you helped secure a licence variation there in the context of city centre redevelopment pressures, and despite objections, the application was approved, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

It was.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

And um, can you just talk through why that was so significant? Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

So it's it's a difficult one for the operator there because this was a sort of council-wide development in the city centre. They didn't have a choice in the matter, essentially. The council came along and said we're going to um do certain works to ultimately benefit the city and make it look nicer. Uh, but as a result of that, all of the buildings around uh this particular live music venue were to be demolished. Um, and with that was two of the fire exits, at least, uh, of the venue in Coventry. So um the client had to come up with an alternative way to be able to get people in and out of the building safely and they put in some temporary fixes. Um, so you've got a planning application there, you've got the sort of wider planning environment from the council's point of view of the development and what they want to do and what ultimately that will look like. Um but where you've got operators that are involved in that, it forces their hands sometimes in terms of their own not only planning applications but also licence applications. So the plans that attach to your premises licence form part of that licence, and if there are any changes to those, then it necessitates an application. Um so the venue in Coventry had to do an application. Unfortunately, we got an objection from uh a local resident who had commissioned his own fire um report, which is very unusual. That's interesting, yeah. Very, very unusual. Um, and spent quite a lot of money actually commissioning this report. Um, and yeah, I'd basically done a count-in and count out of the number of people that were going in and out of the venue on a particular evening. So a really in-depth report.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Uh he was obviously very bothered, was he was very bothered by it.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah, he was. I have to say, ultimately at the hearing, he was quite reasonable about the whole thing. You know, he raised his concerns and he explained the reasons why he'd done what he'd done. Um, but ultimately, you know, we said to the council, we've we've done everything that we possibly can do. Um, the fire authority are happy. In fact, they were sitting next to me in the hearing, so it was quite nice to be able to say um that they were there. And again, committees need to look to each of the authorities because they're the experts in in their own particular field. So um we had to be led by them. So ultimately, yes, the the committee were very good to us, they were very sensible, and they granted it. But again, it's just another hoop for operators to jump through. They've already got to go to the expense of making an application. Um, and then once that application's live and you've got a consultation period that anybody can join in with, it's it's difficult because you never know what might come in, but it keeps us busy.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

You sound very busy.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

It keeps us busy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming and talking to me today. It's been really interesting to hear hear it from your side because obviously I have experienced that as a venue, and that I hear about it all the time working at MBT, you know, trying to support through comms. So thank you for sharing your insights. No, it's been an absolute pleasure, and um, you know, licensing might not always be the most visible part of you know grassroots music world, but it can be one of the most uh important actually, and something that we're dealing with all the time and and gratefully have your support on. Um so thank you for joining me today, and thank you for the all the work that you do for Grassroots Music Venues and to support us at MBT. Um, and you know, uh again I'm gonna talk to you about the supporters circle if you'd like to support the work of MBT. Um, we have a membership model uh which is um about uh growing a movement outside of social media, having that direct communication with you. And you can support us from two, three, four pounds a month, whatever you have in your in your pocket that you're willing to part with, and that money will go into protecting grassroots music venues and making sure that they have a sustainable future. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. We've been the last safe space. I've been your host, Tony Coe, and um let's keep the lights on.