In Conversation with George Fleming of Save our Scene - Episode 26, The Last Safe Space

The Last Safe Space a straight-talking, data-driven podcast from Music Venue Trust. Each episode breaks down the biggest news affecting the UK’s grassroots music venues - from government policy to local wins, campaigns, crisis cases, and how you can take action to support live music.

In this episode, Toni is joined by George Fleming from Save Our Scene for a conversation about the urgent need to protect and rebuild the UK’s grassroots live music ecosystem. From the origins of the campaign to the realities facing venues, artists and promoters today, they explore why structural change is needed now, and how initiatives like Liveline and Everywhere At Once are designed to create practical, long-term support for the communities that sustain live music.

Disclaimer: All data is correct on the date of filming 22/04/2026

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Last Safe Space, a podcast by Music Venue Trust. Um I'm Tony, and this is a space where we talk about the rooms that hold our music and our communities and the cultural ecosystems that allow live music to thrive. So grassroots music venues are often described as the foundations of live music, and these are the places where artists develop, where our local scenes gather and where audience discover something new beyond the rest of the world. But those spaces uh they don't survive by accident. They survive because people fight for them, they invest in them, and they recognise that the health of the whole music industry depends on what happens at grassroots music venues. So today I'm joined by George Fleming from Save Our Scene.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hello. Thank you so much for coming on, George. You're um you know, Save Our Scene is a campaign focused on uh protecting and rebuilding the grassroots live music ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Beautifully put. Is that right? Yes, yeah, no, exactly. Would you like me to expand on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, no, that would be lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Well, well, first of all, thank you so much for having us on probably one of the most important podcasts in UK music right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Oh wow, I feel fabulous.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Which therefore makes you one of the most important hosts in UK music right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Okay, that was a soundbite.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

That's that's what we're gonna use. But um, no, I think you you you sort of summed up. I always struggle to sum up Save Our Scene in a sentence. I think it's really important you should be able to sum up what you do in one sentence, but I've always struggled with it. But essentially, yeah, we're working with the likes of Music Venue Trust and helping build a sustainable grassroots ecosystem. And I've been doing it for about six years now. Started with no six years, wow, biodies. Six years this month, which has flown by. And yeah, to begin with, there was no plan, it was just me with a message, and over the years we've sort of formed more of a sort of direction, and going forward now that feels clearer than ever, and we're so excited about you know what's to come.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Awesome, thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about Save Our Scene and why it matters, and how initiatives like Liveline in particular and um the festival Everywhere at Once are designed not only to celebrate grassroots music but to create practical support for artists, for promoters, and for venues um to keep them alive. Um, so George, thank you so much for joining me. Um, I want to start by talking about the inception of Save Our Scene, like where it came from. We had a little bit of a chat before we started about you being stuck in was it did you say Orkney?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Aaron. Aaron, sorry. Yeah, up in Scotland.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

So what happened?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

It was April 2020. I'd been furloughed from my job in London and managed to escape up to Aaron, which is where my mum's from, and was sort of spent spent. Actually, the truth is I got some hash sent over from Morocco. And I was like, I'm just gonna just smoke this for the until I until until I can leave. And I was sitting around thinking, you know, what what am I gonna do with this time? And a friend of mine started this great initiative called Run for Heroes, where you'd run 5K, you'd donate five quid, and then you'd nominate five people to do the same. And I thought that was just such a genius thing. So um I ended up setting up a campaign for the NHS called Challenge for Champs, where we would we would basically challenge people to do anything they wanted, like prank your parents or learn the piano or volunteer at Tesco's, and then you would put it on your Instagram, you would donate four quid to the NHS, and then you would nominate four friends to do the same. That's a really good thing. So there's sort of for the first time, because I was I was an estate agent back then, having got no A levels at school, and for the first time, this sort of new creative energy came out of nowhere, maybe thanks to this Moroccan hash. Probably probably need to cut this bit out. Yeah, probably. And then and this sort of suddenly it's not working. We raised a few grand for the NHS, and then suddenly it died of death. And after a few days, I was lying in bed about four o'clock in the morning, and I woke up and it was the weirdest thing. I screamed at the top of my voice, what do you want? And I thought about dancing, and obviously back then we couldn't really go dancing, venues and shot. I'd read a few articles about how musicians were falling through the gap of getting financial support during that period. And I woke up the next morning, typed in save our scene into Instagram. The name was there for the taking, and then just started throwing mud at the wall, raising funds for help musicians using that same technique where musicians would upload a video to Instagram, they'd share the giving link to help musicians, and then they would nominate four others to do the same. So that's how it kind of got going, and there was no plan, it was just sort of let's see where this goes.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Just advocacy, like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

But I didn't even know anyone in the in the music industry, didn't really know the sort of how how things worked. Thank God, because I think my naivety was probably my best friend. There's no way I would have started it now, knowing everything I know now. Um but um, and and then as time went on through lockdown, this sort of the issues were just getting greater, and we started doing bike ride raves through London where we had DJs on rickshaws and Land Rovers going through London, and we'd all follow on our bikes, sort of having it outside number 10. And then next thing you know, 50,000 of us were outside number 10 with six lorries and sound systems, uh, which was at a time where you could go to Wembley, which was at full capacity, uh, but they kept delaying the reopening of the venues. So me and this guy called Kai organised Freedom to Dance, which was the moment Save Our Scene became sort of known, and walked into work on the Monday, I got taken straight into a meeting with the PR department, and they basically put me on performance review. And I thought I've gotta I can I can't let them sack me before I have a chance to leave. So I basically jumped ship and had a few grand saved and just went for it. And because we'd done these protests, record labels started getting in touch saying, We've got Fat Boy Slim was the first one, we've got Fat Boy Slim who has a new track coming out with Eats Everything. Can you do a free rave? And so we started doing these pop-up street raves, which were great in terms of getting eyeballs on Save Our Scene, and you know, our followers went rocketing up, and you know, we were getting the message out, you know, either protect our venues or you know, you're just pushing the scene further underground where there's not the same safety provisions, and we were sort of using these big artists as a way of getting attention to that, and then it started feeling like okay, we've got lots of ribals, but what what are we actually doing here to protect this the spaces and and people that sort of nurture and develop future talent? And that was when we came across you guys up until that point. We'd be doing a lot with NTIA around getting a VAT cut, but that campaign, you know, whilst it was great in that we got thousands of people to email their MPs, it just wasn't hitting as hard as it should. We were struggling to get a lot of the industry on board, actually. And when we came across the one pound per ticket contribution, that felt like something which we could really, you know, get behind and and hopefully help make a difference. And then it was around that time where Chris Martin reached out and said, How can we support? and it just happened really organically, and here we are today as as partners.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

It's been very transformative, and I'm sure we'll go into that in a bit, but I I think something that I'd be really interested in asking about is is what what were you seeing in the grassroots sector that made you feel something needed to change?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well, I was coming at it from because you're coming in from a different angle. I was coming as a as a fan, I suppose. Yeah. So I I didn't really think of it uh in any other way, other than we need spaces for people to come together. It's always been yes about the venues, those foolballs and the artists and the promoters. But really, why why do we have venues? Why do we have artists? Why do we have promoters to give communities the space to come together and and you know live life and see your friends? And I think once you lose those third spaces, what's the point? We've lost, we've lost our culture, we've lost our sort of way. And uh, for me, it's always been about human connection, ensuring that future generations have accessible spaces where they can come together and have a dance and get a bit tipsy. And I think that's just like the most important thing. And you look at sort of the way things are going or have been going, and you know, culture is becoming more and more inaccessible, and you know, the grassroots provide spaces where where people can spend a tenor and go and see an amazing new band or DJ. So for me, it's always been about protecting those spaces where we can be free, I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

And I guess when when stuff is going awry politically, you know, life is getting harder, we need those spaces more than ever, don't we? And things do feel like they're particularly hard at the moment. So you'll always find the community congregating in a space like space like a grassroots music venue because they need it, you know, need need that outlet to express themselves in whatever way it is, you know, whether it's performing on the stage or if it's just meeting with other people. Yeah. Um so when you sort of started Save Arcine, was it more about you know providing practical solutions or you know, was it something that you were just hoping would develop over time? Yeah, but did you didn't have a plan?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

No, I didn't have a plan. It was more about just getting the message out there. And you know, I I I thought it would happen really organically because you know, there I was sort of pulling my hair out thinking there's this massive issue. This with such an influential industry, we've got millions of music lovers at our fingertips. Why can't bigger names in the industry rally that rally the troops and and get behind it? That was my sort of main focus, was just creating awareness around the issue. But at that point, you know, I was still like very uneducated in actually what the sort of solutions could be and what the real issues were.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

What what did you think that the issues were back then? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Government. I think that was my my main sort of anger was directed towards them and the lack of support for the arts when it's such an important thing to our society. And I just was frustrated that how how by how short-sighted they've been towards the arts and how it's one of our greatest assets as a country, and it's something they should get behind. I was talking about Coachella, which is I I think probably the most famous festival in the world, definitely not the best by any means. But in terms of the world, like it is probably one of the most famous festivals, and that lineup is predominantly UK. Like the UK has literally gone over there and taken it over. It's like that is is it UK?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

I've never been, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Well, the art the lineup is like definitely in terms of dance music, yeah. We've we've literally moved the scenes moved over there for the last couple weekends is amazing. Wow, all this talent, they some of which I was doing, you know, a 300 cap show with up in Sheffield last year, and they're now playing to tens of thousands, and it's it's amazing. And I think that's just such great evidence to show why UK music you know puts us on the world stage. So I think government was definitely my like focus, getting a VAT cut, things like that. And I think as time has progressed, it's made me realise. And since working with you guys, it's made me realise that it's not just the government who have a role to play in this, it's also the industry. There's uh certain parts of the industry that are driving record-breaking profits, and they're all that up there at the top. Yeah, so why would the government give that lot a VAT cut when they're doing really, really well?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

So it's we've slightly changed now. Yes, we're still calling on the government to provide support, which I'm sure we'll get into with the standard review and things like that, which is one of the most important bits of research to have ever happened in UK music. But I really think that the buck also does stop with certain organisations in the music industry who have the power to to create lasting change and who actually would not be where they are without the grassroots. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, very well put, thank you. So, uh back to Save Arcine, what are the sort of main problems you're responding to, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Well, I think predominantly the I'm not gonna say collapse of grassroots music, but we're we're seeing that at grassroots level, as I'm sure most people listening to this will also agree, it is becoming economically very, very difficult, if not unviable, for a lot of these events to be taking place in in you know small cap grassroots venues. That is the number one thing. If you can't have independent promoters pulling on events in venues, then the whole thing does come tumbling down. So through the likes of Liveline and our partnership with you guys and and AIP, we are essentially on a mission to help restore that grassroots network and the touring circuit. Touring circuit has reduced massively over the years. You know, I'm seeing tools get announced which consists of three shows.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

It's wild, isn't it? And I've noticed there's a trend with um there's a there's a trend with bands going on tour, and they're basically just going Friday, you know, Thursday to Friday, or they're just doing the Friday and the Saturday, and then they're doing the next Friday and Saturday. And that obviously leaves big gaps in the calendar, you know, from Sunday all the way through to Thursday. And it's like people aren't going to shows midweek anymore, and you know, the biggest bands are only playing the weekends. It's there there aren't enough weekends in the year for every band to have a tour. It's strange.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It is it is strange. So that's something which Liveline help like aims to help combat, which probably takes us on to what Liveline is. What Liveline is.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah, so one of the major things you're working on is obviously um Liveline with us. Um, can you explain a little bit about what what Liveline is and how it was created?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, essentially Liveline is a national program that is designed to reduce risk and financial barriers for shows at grassroots level.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yes, to just very quickly explain that, you know, for a lot of people at home, if you work in a venue, you are often, you know, backing a band that you think is going to be really good. So you you will choose to financially, you know, take a risk on an artist that maybe doesn't have an audience, and that often leads to, you know, losing money, doesn't it? Yeah. So you're saying that Liveline is there, gonna is gonna be there to underwrite the cost of supporting that new artist.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Exactly. There's there's there's about four different schemes within Liveline. So at the heart of it is a guaranteorship scheme. So if you are an in-house booker or you are a promoter and you want to put on a show, you budget it up like you normally would. If that show was to make a profit, you keep that profit. If it was to break even, you wouldn't receive any funding. But if it was to make a loss, Liveline would cover up to 80% of those losses.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Which is it is an incredible scheme, which I think is just gonna really help give those promoters and in-house brokers the confidence to program shows and and take risks, which they feel like at the moment maybe the risk is too high to put on put on those shows because they face financial ruin if it doesn't work out. So by essentially underwriting that risk, I we hope it's just gonna give that level of confidence for those promoters and in-house brokers to put on shows. So the guarantorship scheme is very exciting, and that's sort of a big part of Lifeline, but there's three other parts which are also really key. You've got the scene building and development fund, which is designed to be quite flexible. I think the advantage of like some music venue trust playing a part in distributing this funding is that we can be flexible and work with venues and promoters in figuring out what works best for them. So the local scene development fund aims to cover base doors open costs, and then House Booker, for example, might identify a gap in the market. Let's say they wanted to start putting on some electronic shows, but they currently don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Liveline can help make that happen by covering the costs it takes to open those doors on that night. Or they might want to help nurture an independent promoter in the area to program monthly shows across the year. Liveline can cover those base costs that it takes to open the doors for that promoter. Currently, those costs might be putting that promoter off, putting a show on. So if we can make it accessible, get more activity going through the venue, that's brilliant. That's the sort of the scene building fund, which is designed to be flexible. You've also got the tour extension fund, which supports additional costs that stop tours from taking place in parts of the country. As we just spoke about, touring circuits shrunk massively, yeah. Which which purely really comes down to the rising costs and going on tours.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

So and people not going to show yeah, people not going to shows as much anymore. So the same shows are going through the same cities, aren't they? And it's significantly reduced. So you're helping get the shows out into the more rural areas, you know, put them back on the touring map.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

So that could be covering fuel, accommodation costs. If you've got a show in Northern Ireland, a ferry cost or in one of the islands in Scotland, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

It's interesting you say that actually, because um Team MVT just went to Stormont last week to do our annual report launch for Northern Ireland. And one of the things that came up a lot is the cost of uh the ferry over and how inaccessible it is for bands to actually travel over to Northern Ireland and play or Ireland in general and play. And obviously, there are all kinds of uh complications between playing in the north and then going through the south. So you're saying that you would help underwrite the costs of those traveling.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Exactly, and travel and reconnect the Highlands and Islands, West Wales and Northern Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Um because there were there is a demand in these places, but the talents just not going there, which therefore means that these venues are have got gaping holes in their calendar. So if we can sort of again reduce those barriers for for that talent, then hopefully you know those shows can happen and the venues will benefit as well as the local communities. I hate the idea of towns and not having access to live music, which you I'm sure everyone will agree with.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Well, yeah, I literally grew up in a town that didn't have a music venue, so yeah, it it makes a big difference on the way people they develop in their younger years. So you said guarantorships, uh scene building, and then the tour extension, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Lastly, you've got the genre-specific safety and access fund. Some genres require more performers on stage, but the cost of that is stopping them from putting on those shows.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

What kind of music would that be?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Grime, for example, you can have up to 10 MCs at a gram show.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So maybe trad music as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, yeah, exactly. This fund is designed to help make that happen. Um, also, some venues require extra safety precautions for some shows and more security. The genre specific fund can help with those costs as well. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And at the moment it's pretty amazing, it's pretty revolutionary.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

I know it's a bit nuts, isn't it? It's absolutely crazy. But it it's it's you know, it's doable and it's happening.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

But more practically, like in practice, how does that work? So do people apply for the funding or yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

So at the moment, pilot projects are already underway. Come July, applications will be opened up to the network, which is super exciting, and we'll be releasing details in the coming weeks on what that's going to look like. Our role is to work with Music Bendy Trust and AIP in ensuring that these funds are being spread across the entire ecosystem and making sure that there are no communities left behind. Awesome. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Thank you. Um, I think also it's probably quite an important part of the conversation to explain where the money's come from. Yeah, do you think you could go into that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yes. So Liveline is backed by the Live Trust. Any one pound per ticket contribution on Stadium and Arenas goes to the Live Trust, and then from there, the Live Trust distributes it to funds like Liveline and different projects that likes of MVT and other organisations are doing, who then get the funds out to the community. But Liveline was really buffed initially off the back of Coldplay, who obviously did 10% of their proceeds on their UK tour last year, which is starting to feel like a long time ago now.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And there's a bunch of other artists as well that followed suit, I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

As well as Katie Perry. Yeah. Sam Fender. Yeah, Enter Shikari with the farm to do the levy. It should be called the the Shikari Levy.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

It probably should, to be fair. They've done so much for us.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, incredible bands. Big ups. So yeah, and then I I think what for this year, maybe 30% of the Stadium Marina shows now have the contribution on, which is great progress compared to where we were this time last year.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah. Well, quite a few big shows got added this year, which really shifted things. You know, I think Harry Styles. Yeah, that was a big show. Big one.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

I think uh actually it was quite a few of the One Direction guys.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yes. Who would have thought?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I know. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah, but there's obviously 70% of shows which don't have the grassroots contribution on, and that's sort of the the key, really, because the whole thing just will not work if it is annually only 30%. So I think you know there's a there's a there's a deadline, another deadline set of when Live Nation need to pull the finger out and and get on board. I suppose if that deadline's not met, we'll be calling for a mandatory levy, which would then mean that the government control the funds and it will go through the arts council, which is an amazing thing, but it there are you know quite a lot of barriers to getting funding from the arts council. I've tried before and it took me pleasant. It's stressful. Yeah, it's really difficult. So hopefully it can stay a voluntary thing where the likes of music venue trusts who know the industry better than anyone else can play a key role in it. So fingers crossed that they see the light, because if they don't, we're coming for them.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Say that into the camera.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

They won't be scared of me, well, they believe you should be.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Okay, so um, I think one thing that we probably not touched on is it it who is Liveline for, you know. So um I know these the focus is on new and emerging artists, but uh also on helping more established artists reach secondary and tertiary markets where touring has become financially difficult. I think that we do we do talk a lot about new and emerging artists and you know the next Edgear and then the next, I don't know, whoever else. And actually, there there's a lot of people that just really enjoy playing grassroots music venues, and um, and a lot a lot of them are not young, you know, teenagers or or you know early 20s anymore. Yeah. Um I'm I'm speaking for myself. No, I I just I just think that we do spend a lot of time talking about young artists, so yeah, who who is the the fund for or who's it going to benefit?

SPEAKER_00 24:04

All activity is to take place in Music Venue Trust member venues. So if you are a venue and you're not signed up to Music Venue Trust yet, I urge you to sign up.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

While we're talking about membership, we do have a paid membership model, but we do also offer bursaries. So if there are any venues out there that can't afford to be part of the membership, that there there are options for you. And um, you know, Lala's uh available to talk to you about that. You just have to apply through our website. So yeah, thank you for saying that because I think it's important that people don't um you know the finance finances aren't a barrier in order to get our support.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

That's great. I didn't realise about the bursaries.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, we've got quite a quite a lot of venues on bursary programme, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

So that's on the so venue front. All shows will take place in MVT member venues, and then we're working as well with AIP, the Association of Independent Promoters, yeah, who are amazing. They're still very much in their infancy. Yeah, but through Liveline, we're supporting and the Live Trust, we're supporting in sort of beefing them up a little bit, and they currently have about 150 members.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

I think they were also recipients of the fund uh to develop their um their organization, sorry. Yeah, so we should see a lot more from them uh in the next year. I just think it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

So again, if you are an independent promoter, check out AIP. It's currently free to sign.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

We're very we're an acronym city over here.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yes. So in time, it will be a requirement for promoters to be members of AIP to benefit from Liveline. There's various different sort of criteria promoters will need to meet.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

It also just makes sense, doesn't it, to be part of an organization that is representing independent promoters. 100% like independent venues, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

It's yeah, so yeah, we're definitely, you know, working with with AIP to to uh build out their membership. And yeah, it's been received really well.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Great. I think lastly, it would just be really good to touch on the festival. So Everywhere at Once Festival happening in June, um 26th and 28th of June, hundreds of grassroots music venues from Inverness to Penzance will take place. Um, and what's described as the UK's biggest ever grassroots festival.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Um it's like a mark special.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, it was, but you know, it I think it's really interesting because the focus is on local, the focus is on sustainability. Go down to your local venue, watch your local grassroots um artists, you know, be with your local community. There are no financial barriers, you can probably walk there or cycle there, or you get on a bus or something. Um, but it's happening, it's like a national moment, it's happening in all of the grassroots venues over the same weekend. It's pretty exciting. It's so and lifelines are part of that.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

So yes, exactly. So National Lottery are giving every venue funding to open their doors that weekend, as well as promoters. So if if there's a promoter who wants to put on a show, they get given 400 quid to pull on the show that weekend in their local venue, and it's gonna be a big moment. We're we're doing a few underplays as well, so getting big artists to play in small venues that means something to them. I can't see any names yet.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Soon though, um, very soon.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

All ticket proceeds will be split across War Childs, Teenage Cancer Trust, Help Musicians, Music Venny Trusts, Nordiff and Robins. And I think that is it.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

So yeah, we're so gassed to be a part of it. 26th and 28th of June, Glastonbury Fallow weekend. You don't need to go to a muddy field this year if you want to go to a festival. You can go to the show.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

You don't have to spend loads of money. Yeah, it's it's it's gonna be great. I'm really excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Where are you gonna go?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yes, absolutely. Where am I gonna go? So many choices. I know, you're gonna need to. To be honest, probably probably to my local, you know. Um make sense. Yeah, probably the Piper in St. Leonard's nice. Yeah, great venue. Awesome. Shout out, Chris, from the Piper. Um look, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really, really awesome to talk about Save Our Scene, Live Line, you know, ever at once. Um, you're doing such important work, and we're really grateful for all of the work that you and Alex and the team do. So, you know, thank you for coming here. Maybe just a last closing question. Um When you think about the future of live music in this country, what does protecting our culture actually mean in practice?

SPEAKER_00 28:26

More venues opening than closing, accessible dance floors where your everyday person can go and have a dance if they want to and have a beer as well. Places where people can still come together and be part of a community which isn't on your phone, and I and I can see it happening. The more we look at our phones and don't really know what's real and what's not, the more we're gonna crave, you know, real life settings. So I think it's gonna happen. There are some amazing people working on this mission, and we've just got to get certain people on board with the overall task.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

It's the long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

No, that was not long-winded, that was excellent. But thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

And all of the team at MVT, we're so grateful because we've learned so much, and you know, we probably were a little bit green, and probably still are a little bit green, but you've been so supportive of us and we're so excited to make beautiful things happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

We're like a blended family, really, aren't we? We are. It's kind of dangerous. I kind of feel like you're just an extension of the MVT family. But yeah, no, we we feel exactly the same. Thank you so much. Um, and so yeah, lastly, I guess if you care about grassroots music venues, uh, there's something that you could do that goes beyond going to a gig and buying a ticket, and that is joining the supporter circle, which I'm banging on about every single time we have a um a podcast episode. It's our growing community of people who believe in venues um and believe that they're essential spaces and deserve to survive. So it looks like a membership, but really it's a movement, uh, it's a collective action. Um, because the truth is the future of live music won't be protected by the industry alone. It will be protected by the people who care enough to stand behind it. So for as little as sort of two pounds a month, five pounds a month, whatever you can spare, um, you can help support that movement to make sure that no more grassroots music venues close. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you, George, for coming down. And um, this has been The Last Safe Space. I've been Tony. Let's keep the lights on.