Ethics Start With You with Dr Jim Walsh - Episode 24, The Last Safe Space

The Last Safe Space a straight-talking, data-driven podcast from Music Venue Trust. Each episode breaks down the biggest news affecting the UK’s grassroots music venues - from government policy to local wins, campaigns, crisis cases, and how you can take action to support live music.

In this episode, Toni speaks to Jim Walsh, CEO of Conway Hall Ethical Society and author of Ethics Starts With You, about the role of ethics in grassroots music venues. Together they explore the Ethical Venues project, the power and risk of publicly stating values, and how venues can create spaces that are both principled and welcoming.

Disclaimer: All data is correct on the date of filming 05/03/2026

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Last Safe Space. This is a data-driven, no-nonsense, straight talking podcast from Music Venue Trust, bringing you all of the information from the grassroots sector, but specifically grassroots music venues. I'm Tony, I'm your host today, and I'm joined by a wonderful person, CEO of Conway Hall Ethical Society and author of the book Ethics Start With You. Dr. Jim Walsh. It's doctor, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

It is. It is.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Do you ask people to call you doctor?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

No, I'm Jim. Yeah, uh, please, yeah, it's doctor if I need to kick a door open somewhere in an authoritarian atmosphere.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

But otherwise it's Jim, so it's definitely I wrote Jim Walsh and I was like, You're a doctor. That feels like a little bit disrespectful. I should uh I should check in. But thank you so much for joining me today. Um, Jim, obviously, you've been working with Music Venue Trust on our ethical venues project, helping venues uh think about how they want to express their values publicly and how they communicate those values to their audiences. Um so thank you so much for joining me today. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I'm feeling well and thank you for inviting me as well. It's a lovely, lovely sunny day outside, and it but it's great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I was like lovely sunny day outside, and we're making you come inside for a podcast episode. Um if I'm just gonna get into it, if that's all right. Um before we talk about the Ethical Venues project, uh, I'd love to just start with your story. Um, I guess. Your work has focused for many years on ethics, um, on civic life and the role individuals play in shaping society. So I just kind of wondered what first drew you to that kind of work, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

No, of course. Um I it's a complex, a complex story, but I'll try and make it simple. Um the simplest way I was doing this recently is to work out what happened to me as a child that made me want to think about ethics, because it was as a child, and it was growing up in the 70s and 80s and being at school and just seeing the rampant racism that was all around, as well as a lot of other things like homophobia, obviously, and just thinking this is so wrong, um, and I really don't like it, and it really kind of you know made me think how we treat each other. Um that was unformulated, you know. I couldn't work out what to do with it, I was just frustrated by it. And then life happens, and you go to work, and you kind of I worked for quite a while before I went to university, but it was in work that I kind of realized actually, I need I want to study something, and that's where philosophy came in. And so I went to university and was very fortunate to have a wonderful peer group of friends who really um sort of were very meaningful. We had deep conversations as anyone doing philosophy would, but it was always about ethics for me. Um, and then coming back out of academia eventually, I was in there for quite a while, um, and then thinking about what work I wanted to do. The cultural sector was definitely something for me, and I worked for a contemporary art gallery or contemporary visual art gallery in Essex for five years, and then I was fortunate enough to see the job advertised for Conway Heretical Society.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Oh wow, so you you've been there a long time then.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

So 15 years now.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Wow, that's really cool. It was an amazing space, Conway Hall.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

It is. I I feel very lucky to sort of be caretaking it, it's how I see it. Um, because it's been around now for nearly a hundred years, and the organization has been around for 220 years. Um, so it's got a long pedigree, a big, you know, um staggering history actually, in terms of what we've had happen, you know, amongst those 220 years. But Conway Hall itself is just yeah, a wonderful place to work. It has culture and it has ethics, and it has um some really amazing performances, but also it has the what I've what I've always, as you understood, yeah, or really yearned for, which is meaningful conversations, respectful understanding as well. And we can hold that space so that people can come and you know listen to a talk and then potentially disagree with it, but done in a respectful way and in a kind and compassionate way. So yeah, it's um been quite a long journey to kind of get where I am, and I'm very lucky, really.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

That's honestly speaking to my heart. I love the idea of just having deep conversations with people all the time. I'm a little bit too much sometimes. But um uh so were you always aware of Conway Hall, or you know, was it something that you discovered through the advertisement?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I was I wasn't aware of it. It's a like it's um it's a venue and it's an organization that it's quite weird that most people you know would say, No, I haven't heard of it, or oh, I did my exams there in the 1970s, or I came to a concert there. I wasn't aware because I'm not necessarily well, I'm not from London originally from Hertfordshire, and then moved to Essex for a while. So it was purely looking for work after you know I realized that my time at the contemporary visual art gallery, I was gonna get to that point where actually I need my next step. So yeah, and uh came across it and they interviewed me and I got the job.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

And stayed there 15 years, so it must must be a good job.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

It's a good job, and they can't get rid of me. No, I have a wonderful team of um trustees and staff there, and we sort of built that up over those 15 years, and it's become um it's become something far greater than I ever thought it could be. So yeah, I'm really lucky to be there.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Um, so was there any kind of particular moment where you thought um, you know, I want to be, you know, working in ethics, or was it just kind of like an abstract idea, you know, where did that all come from? I know you said that in school, you know, you you experienced what it was like to be in an environment with transphobia and racism, but was there anything in particular that sometimes people just like joy is sparked from you know an experience?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Or I think I think for me it was it was being at university with my friends and sort of realizing that philosophy is a wonderful academic discipline, but it's absolutely pointless if it stays only there. It needs to get out into the world, it really does need to do what it should do, which is to affect people's lives or help people's lives. And so it was right at that sort of undergraduate stage that I didn't know quite kind of where it would take me or what would happen, but there was always a yearning to you know, maybe teach philosophy in schools or something, um, but to try and actually find a route out, you know, to try and sort of take it from academia into into that new space. Um, the cultural side with um was always a sort of a twin hobby for me or a passion almost. Where so I've that's why I went from university into the sort of cultural first, but then got drawn into Conway Hall because of the as soon as I saw ethical society, it was like that's it. You know, they do music, they do art, they do talks, and you know, this is where I need to be. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

And then you've also uh written a book called Ethics Start With You, which is a pretty powerful statement. Um, how did that all come about?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

That was um originally written um at half five in the morning um before I went to work, I mean before my family got up for breakfast. I had a young family at the time, and I had so many ideas that I just you know that were from the university side, but also the my annoyance with some philosophy is that yes, it stays in academia and it needs to come outside, but people did help in sort of you know some understanding what actually are some very powerful messages, but they're wrapped up in this oblique text. So that's where I wanted to pair the idea with a cultural example, and I thought, well, I'm just gonna have free reign here, so I'm gonna bring in ACDC, I'm gonna bring in John Lee Hooker, I'm gonna bring in Benny Goodman, you know, Otis Redding, and just go for pairing things up. Um so ideas with music, ideas with art. Um, and yeah, spent two years writing it um and was very lucky to get interest from a publisher. Um and yeah, that that meant that I got it edited properly, got it designed, and now it's out live. So yeah, it's um it's my uh kind of brain, it's my mental space sort of work that was for a sort of personal reason. Um, but now I'm much more focused in sort of the work that I do, obviously at Conway Hall, and want to be a bit more hands-on with you know with things, which is why the Music Venue Trust, you know, comes comes into play for me, which is I have an opportunity now to sort of you know hopefully help a really wonderful project and sort of you know do my little bit maybe a little bit more than I was currently doing.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Um it is a is a wonderful project, and we'll get onto it in a little bit. Um we had Lala and Charlie on the podcast recently talking about it, so it's lovely that you can join us so we can go into a bit more detail. Um, so I just wanted to talk about the the role of values in cultural spaces. Um, because when people think about ethics, they often imagine, you know, philosophy lectures, sort of, you know, being at university and everything, or political debates, I guess. But you know, cultural spaces like music venues are constantly making ethical decision decisions, probably without even really realizing it. Um you know, whether like how artists are being treated, that's something that they might think about, you know, who they're booking, why they're booking them, how audiences are welcomed into their space, and how and communic how communities are engaged with. Um, those are uh lots of things that venues do all the time without even necessarily making a conscious realizing that they're making a conscious choice. So do you think spaces like grassroots venues have a particular ethical role in society?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Oh absolutely. Um it they're they're the spaces that people want to go to. They want to go and spend time, they want to make friends, they want to listen to music. They yeah, it's a it's a cultural asset, and it's um it's a space where the values that draw people to those spaces are quite often the same values that you have by the people who run them. They have a passion for music, you know, they have a passion for getting people into a space for a wonderful experience, um, and there's a community there. And so for me, that when absolutely when ethics is spoken about, it's not now any more academic for me. It's about conversation, it's about dialogue, it's about hearing you know, someone else's point of view, it's about respecting them, and it's about um having that that kind of wise wiseness or wisdom um uh to sort of realize actually we're here together. And why why aren't we here together wholeheartedly and you know, really, really sort of being in that space? Um so yeah, I think that the role that a meet that a grassroots music venue provides is to actually hold that space for people, like the container, hold the container for people to have like those conversations.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Just to go back to your um going back to university, sorry, just have this thought. Sorry, do they teach you how to have difficult conversations with people without um ruining the relationship? Because like that seems to be a problem, I think, today is that people can't seem to have different views and opinions, they're just uh cutting people out of their lives and saying really vile things to each other.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

That's very true, and academia doesn't that where the discipline that I studied that wasn't spoken about. It was all kind of the historical who said what, when did they say it, and who were they having their argument with. But what you're saying absolutely resonates with me in terms of what we see at the moment in our you know wider culture is just you open up the news each day and you have a look, and there's just terror after horror after trauma after disagreement. And yeah, what drives me is that if I'm you know walking in London somewhere and I fall over, I'm pretty confident that a stranger, complete stranger, will walk up to me and go, You're all right, mate.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

And that's you know, so the individual connection that we each have with each other is just so is so important. And I think that that's that's something that we we need to sort of cherish, um, and we need to sort of find ways where, as you say, at the yeah, we're in danger of veering off into someone said something that I disagree with. Yeah, and if they disagree with you, if they if I disagree with them, then I cut them out of my life. And I think that there's a you know, that shouldn't be done. Yeah, we should be actually saying, hold on a minute, I don't necessarily get why you're saying that. You know, could you explain what's going on for you? Or if there's time to do that, we should try and call them in and actually try and you know find a way where we can understand why it is that they're saying that and thinking that. And then for me, quite often it'd be a case of that isn't my experience, that's not what's happening. Yeah, you know, that and then on the other side of it is that if it's more minor and it's not so sort of inflammatory, then quite often we might need to scale our own sort of sense of outrage down.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah, absolutely. That's another thing that I think people don't really have in their toolbox. But I think also where you just mentioned that human connection of you, you know, physically falling over and someone coming and saying, Are you okay? You don't necessarily have that connection online, and a lot of these conversations are happening online, so that humanity, that real human connection isn't there.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Um, so I think it's a it's it's a really uh tough time to be alive and have these conversations, really, because we've got these screens in front of us that are like these protect protective barriers, but they're protective but at times dehumanizing, which is why some going back to sort of you know a grassroots music venue, that's us in a space that's real people, yeah, not behind the screen. Yeah, with if you go if you go to a gig and you're seeing people with their phones out, you know, scrolling or it or texting or whatever, then you kind of think, well, why are you doing that? Yeah, you're you're here for the music, you're here to be part of something. Yeah, and so that there's that side to you know a venue as well, which is so important, because it is that space that can happen. Because yeah, there is too much time spent where we're, as you say, it's almost distanced or alienated from each other when we look online. It's the same thing about road rage behind the wheel, you know, that person's just a a you know, an annoyance to me, and I won't treat them with any humanity. Whereas if you have a person actually in front of you, then I would hope 99% of the time people would realize that and actually be kind. Doesn't always happen.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

No. And uh, why might it matter for venues to think consciously about the values that shape the spaces that they run?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I think one of the one of the reasons that that values are important is because they they actually, if we ask certain questions of ourselves, they come out, you know, they become things that we can understand and we uh and we actually have inside us that guide us throughout life. There's that sort of internal side of the values, but there's also from a very practical point of view, values are important to declare and to say you know who we are as an organization or as a community. And that's been used at the moment by so many other people or other organizations, businesses have been using them for 20 years. They declare their values, you know, they and they do it in such a way that you know that you know you're kind of suspicious quite often, you know, as to whether they're actually got anything behind the word integrity or accountability or sustainability. Yeah, if you're you have that notion, but they wouldn't do it if it didn't mean that it worked from a commercial point of view as well. So if there was no financial imperative or incentive, it wouldn't happen. They would just say, well, we're not doing values anymore, we'll do something else. But they still are, and so that for me is why music venues, it's grassroots mus you know, venues, having you know values there is something that I think we can learn, we can learn to take the good from business structures, yeah. And I think that there's a sense to that. Um we don't have to take their uh attitude or their kind you know their sort of lip service, we can do it with integrity that actually is integrity, that actually is coming from the people who run it, so and the people who kind of enjoy using that space.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm trying not to bring too much of my own opinion, it's not very what what a host is supposed to do. But I I'm certainly when I worked in a in a venue, the sort of like the values of the venue were really important, especially with communicating with um our audience. So I think it it would be a good place, you know, in the podcast to talk about the Ethical Venues project. I think it makes sense. Um can you possibly explain uh to our audience what the Ethical Venues Project is and how you became involved with it? Because it's an excellent project.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

It's an excellent project. It was the idea of MVT that you had a venues day, I think a year ago um or a couple of years ago. One of my colleagues came back from it and said, Oh, it was a fantastic day. They were there was this happening, there was that happening. And then Bev was saying we're going to launch ethical venues. And at that moment, my ear just kind of tuned in and said, What's happening? You know, what's going on? You know, we we can what you know I want to know more.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Like an ethical radar.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, it was like, hold on, someone's talking about ethics, and yeah, and it's not us. Oh my god, no. Um, and I just thought that you know, understanding who the MVT were, understanding the kind of dynamism that you have, and just thinking, I I want to help. I want Conway Hill Ethical Society to help. Yeah, I want to be, I want us to be a partner if MVT you know would have us. So that's where having that initial kind of conversation with Bev, with Sophie and Chris to sort of talk about what their ambitions were for the project and then what we could offer um and how we could sort of support. And right off the bat, it was a case of I'm not a sustainability expert, I'm not an access, you know, expert, but I know about ethics and I know about values. Um, and we started to have the conversation, and one of the key things that came out of it, I think where what I what I managed to do beforehand was a bit of thinking, and just did some online research, very simple kind of things. And I saw an estate agent in 23 has had published um online their own sort of version of what it was like to have a venue in your neighborhood and what the pros and the cons are for anyone who's a resident in that neighborhood. I thought, why the heck wh why isn't a state agent doing this? Why, yeah, the you know that the venue needs to be controlling that and needs to be advocating for their own spaces and why they are a community asset and having their voice there. And that's where I you know I was saying to Bev, Sophie, and Chris that whatever happens for venues, they will be spoken about outside by other people. And so that that for me became a bit of a you know a mission cause of saying I want to help get the voice, you know, give the voice and shape, you know, in whatever you know soft way that I want, you know, can so that venues can feel they have the same sort of power to be able to dictate, well, you know, not dictate, but to control how they are perceived by residents and others who are around them, not have estate agents or anyone else, you know, wanting to sort of drive that conversation and manipulate it.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

So that became my kind of well add their own bias, I guess, as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yeah, exactly. And actually declare, look, we're we're a community asset here. Yeah, this is what we do and this is what we bring. I mean, quite often that most spaces these days welcome in different community groups throughout the day, you know, or you know, for hire or for the evenings, or just as a space that you can use our our you know, upstairs room or whatever it is to have your you know kind of committee meeting, to have your um social event, that sort of thing. And that's unrecognised a lot of the time, that that is an asset, and except by those who partake in it. But I think having that voice going out in the world, you know, and actually being able to sort of let people know that that's what we do, that's it's all about the communication, as we all know. And that that's just you know, I just thought I want to help on this. I feel quite stirred up by it.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

So, what are the um the sort of um aims? Of the project, then if you're to boil it down to its basics.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It might be my interpretation, and Beth might go, that's nice, Jim. Yeah, but that's not that's not that's not quite where we're where we agreed. But I think the aims of the project are the to recognize the value that grassroots music venues have for their audiences and to be proud of that and to sort of communicate that. And it might be a a video that the venue does to sort of show how how easy it is to access um the venue or the sustainability side of things and have a top ten um kind of things that we do as our venue for sustainability. But it's what happens there is you create a culture, and because people these days, um, you know, your average, if I use an old phrase, punter, is immensely savvy about the way they want to go. Yeah, they they're no longer just saying, I will go to my local you know space.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Weather spoons.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah. Um triggered. Yeah. They will no longer be satisfied with that. They we have we each now have such a um sort of plethora of information of where of things that are important to us. And so they will find the vegan restaurant, they will find the you know, the club that's putting on the sort of 80s dance music or whatever it might be, and they will go to that. So if a venue is actually declaring what they stand for, yeah, because for a lot of people it is, well, I want to go somewhere where I feel included, yeah. And if there's uh one of the value venue, sorry, values that are stated that actually say, you know, one of our key values is inclusion. Yeah, we want to be you know inclusive of everyone here, yeah. And that's that's got some meaningful um statement behind it that's not just the corporate um kind of use of the word, like I mentioned, with integrity, yeah, accountability, inclusivity. Yeah, it's no, it has to be authentic. You you have to actually um wear your colours, you know, as you as you're writing it and saying it. So when people arrive, they feel it. Because otherwise there's a mismatch and they'll never go again. Sorry, long speech.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

No, no, not at all. It's I mean, literally, this is the what I love to talk about. So it's very lovely to hear you talk about it. Um, I guess uh it'd be interesting to know what it looks like in practice for venues to be able to articulate their ethical values, do you know? Because as far as I understand it, the whole purpose of the project is not to basically tell venues that they need to share specific values, it's about uh helping them communicate the values that they already have and sharing that information with the public so that they're aware of what the value values are. So I guess in practice, what does that look like? Will that be like statements? Will it be um something stuff on the website, like for accessibility? You know, what anything else?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, I I think it's it's important because it right at the start, you know, Bev was talking, and I just instantly got it and understood and agreed that every venue's different.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

There isn't there isn't a a kind of like, well, here are the here are the five things that we that we as the music venue trust, you know, Conway Hall are back in it, you know, that you would need to put out as your statements on values or your you know what you actually are about. It's like, no, it's different. You you go to you go to Aberdeen and you go to a venue there, and that's you know gonna be so you know different and wonderful in its uniqueness from something that you have round the corner from here. And that means that they're gonna have different values, they're gonna have different priorities, and but the people that can actually work on those are those who are involved in it. You know, though that and I think one of the things I, you know, we had a um session in Edinburgh um where we had a lot of the Scottish venues come, and I was just saying, look, you all know why you're doing this. You know, you're intelligent people. You know, you could all be, you know, earning three times as much easily in any corporate sector that you wanted to, but you've chosen to do this, you know. So that means that music's important to you. That means that community is important to you. Well, just think about that, you know, and work out actually what are the messages here that are coming through when I ask myself certain questions, and then ask my colleagues or those who you know volunteer and help or I hope the people that make it work, you know, get them and those values that come out, those statements are going to be, as I say, totally different and unique for each space. And with because of that, that means that there's in there is authenticity. Yeah, there is something that's driven from you know the heart and the mind rather than from the oh, we'll make more money out of this. Yeah, probably will make more money out of it because what happens if you do declare certain things with your video that talks about access or your you know sustainability tips or your um community values, funding becomes an issue and a good issue because there are people there will be people that go, well, actually, we're a trust or a foundation, or we've we're a local authority, and our strategic priorities actually seem to align to this new burgeoning thing that we had as a blot on our landscape for so long, but now it seems to be a community asset, and they was they will spot that and see it, and they will start having a proper conversation, hopefully, one day, um where there could be some financial transaction as well. But I think you if you don't tell them what you stand for, yeah, then it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

I guess you're also drawing in your the right community as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

It's very inspiring, it's a good pep talk.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Sorry, yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Because I I was at the uh Scottish event, wasn't I? Yes, and uh I at the time I felt really geared up afterwards as well. Um I really would like to talk about the power and risk of public values because I I think this is also an interesting one. And um the way I frame this, uh I don't want to be clear that this is not my opinion or anything, but I guess one of the interesting tensions in this work is that when organize organizations publicly state their values, it can sometimes feel welcoming to a certain group, but it also might feel alienating to others. Um, I mean, even when we put up certain posts on social media about values or ethics, uh, you know, there's sometimes some quite spicy replies. Um, as I'm sure you might have seen, you know, grassroots venues want to be inclusive spaces where everyone feels able to come together around music, but um they also often want to stand for something. And and how do you balance those two things? How can a venue communicate ethical commitments without creating a sense that certain certain audiences aren't welcome, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

It's it it is it's a it's a really good question, right? Because it's the huge topic that we face now, where you know, as we spoke about you know the sort of the wider political context that we're in at the moment means that people have access to whatever information that they want and they make decisions and they make life choices, and they clash quite often with you know their friends, their neighbors, their family, let alone anyone else online. And so you kind of I feel this sense of you know sort of people being pushed into sort of silo spaces at times where they're kind of I found my tribe, yeah, and my tribe is the right tribe.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah, and that means that I don't You really don't like that feeling either. That if you don't agree with all of the things that I think, then you're not part of my tribe. It's very it is alienating, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

It's a um it's a massive problem right now. There's a guy actually, I've I've kind of promised myself that I shouldn't do this. Um you know, it's not a name drop, but there's a an author, um Rutger Bregman, and one one of his things he did was about moral ambition, and he's done, you know, amazing he's doing amazing work and he's published a lot, but he had this very simple idea, which is if if your friend, your family member, you know, or whoever it is, agrees with 80% of what you say, and you know, that that's good. Don't chuck them out for the sake of the 20%, because we need actually we need unity because what we're faced with is you know division and being made to divide by whatever evil that we want to sort of you know put a name to in the world at the moment, because there's a lot going on that we don't like, a lot of decent people, but there are people trying to divide, and so that's where if we can unify and hold that unity and hold that sort of united sense of you know community with each other, that's got to be the right way of thinking. So, so not everyone is going to agree with everything that we say, you know. So when a venue is faced with that moment of like, well, we had our you know discussion as a team, you know, and we had our sort of thinking and down on our values and we put them out there, and the first thing that came back was someone saying, What a bunch of such and suches we are, then they're not gonna agree. All right, so that person is stating that, you know, in in that way. It could be that you say, That's you, we could reply and say, That's wonderful that you you're commenting, thank you so much. We'd like to have a further discussion. Please come on, you know, please come along at three o'clock on Friday and we can really get to grips with what you're what's going on here. You could be generous, you know, smothered with kindness like that. Or we could just say, we're not gonna be able to change or mould, not that we should even either, but you know, to get that everybody to agree with us. And so, but there are for everyone that kind of has that keyboard warrior effect, there are going to be 99 others who actually will read what's said and go, Oh wow, I'm I'm I'm mentally noting that space and thinking of going there at some point. They don't necessarily give you their affirmation right there and then, but it could come later, yeah. So yeah, that some of what some of that might have addressed your question.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

No, it did, it definitely did. And I I think that uh you know I really agree with you, you need to be able to be feel part of a community, uh, even if someone might have some challenging views. Um but I think that uh there's a lot of shaming going on around in the world at the moment, and I think that uh if you're trying to connect with someone, shaming them is not going to do that. I think it it's not going to bring someone closer to your way of thinking, it's actually gonna do the opposite, it's gonna push them away. Yeah. Um so I'm very much in favour of having difficult conversations and understanding each other better, being able to put yourself outside of your own situation, your own shoes, and yeah, um be open and willing to understand someone else's experience.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Well, we did this in a literal way, very literal way. When I started a Conway Hall, where we had a lot of neighbours complaining about our noise from our gigs, you know. Um, and I just thought we could repel them, ignore them, and just um try and you know, put fingers in our ears or whatever and pretend it you know it's not doesn't exist and we do everything that's wonderful. But I I took a different tack and just said, uh have a conversation. Yeah, at that time it was not necessarily a social media, it was more active neighbor complaints, yeah, letters through the door, you know, knocking on the door and complaints coming into the foyer, that kind of thing. So I spoke to them and said, Look, we're we're we're people, we're human, you know. We we have this space and we do many different things here, and just started to kind of talk them through what we are as an organization and what we do for the communities that are around us who either use our space or for our audiences as well, and then maybe I you know ground them down a bit as you could probably tell how I talk. Yeah, but but I sort of you know managed to convince them that they can actually speak to us, and in the end, it became such a um they became advocates, you know, for who we are because they said, Oh yeah, they're actually decent people. And the sort of the noise up, the noise side of things, I said, look, we're struggling with money. One of the first things we're gonna do is get a decibel meter and try and get a noise limiter and make sure that a very simple thing is that we close the windows in our in the upstairs balcony of our main hall, which is where we know the noise bleeds out of. We are really trying to do things here. Um, and they got it, they understood, but it was only because I took the bit between my teeth and said, I'm gonna talk, we're gonna have a conversation, it'll be a difficult one that we need to have it, otherwise we're gonna have this just never-ending kind of complaint and antagonism, and that's not healthy for any of us.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

And I guess that's also a good example of having value values, not just performing values. Yeah, yeah. Which is a is a big thing as well. Um we know that the grassroots music sector is under an enormous pressure financially, isn't it? Yeah, um, many venues have been trying to survive week to week. Um, some people might ask whether ethics are uh are a luxury when you're simply fighting just to keep the doors open.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

How would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_01 35:49

I mean, absolutely. Look, it's you have to be under no illusion, you know, it it is so hard for any venue to keep its doors open and to keep and to you know just pay bills and just to have the sort of you know, the regular kind of community that and the audiences you attend and sort of make sure that the staffing's there, that there's massive, massive pressures and burdens. What I would say about the values and about ethics is that honestly, it helps to be able to own the conversation, to help direct the conversation and to sort of put messaging out there. And it's not we're not no one, I don't think you're right at the start, Bev will say we're not asking anyone to write a manual for their venue about the ethical venues. That's just no one needs that. What what people need, what people need, the audiences particularly, the punters who come in, is to sort of feel a connection, and that could be done through so many different means these days. I mean, one of the wonderful things about the time we live in now, rather than the devastation and you know, the evil that's out there, as I've described, is that we can do so many different things in so many different ways. We can reach our audiences, reach our communities, and we could do it by video, we could do it by you know, uh whatever it might be that we use. We have the power in our hands to actually put our own thoughts out there. And there when you do that, it does work. You know, people do see it, and it's also it's like the it's a very similar thing to, you know, I had no smoking signs shoved on the front entrance of the building, you know, just so that people would not smoke right at the front doors. Yeah, and it's just very powerful because you know, we can go out and just you know point to someone who's smoking right underneath it and say, Would you mind? Yeah, and they and they see the sign and go, Oh, I didn't see it, and then they move. The written word is actually a powerful thing, yeah, whereas the spoken word is also powerful, but if it you know, but the spoken word could be backed up. It's a case of have you seen our values, have you seen our video, have you seen our website? You know, this is what we stand for. Here's a poster in our, you know, that we did or put up in the kind of the reception area or in the or in the bar, whatever it is. And it works. It's a little bit of extra time, it's a little bit of you know, that pull away from the kind of deluge and just have a quiet moment to sort of go, yeah, I've got I've got an hour here, I can create something and do something, but it's worth it, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah, I I mean I I totally agree with you. Um to finish, I'd just love to ask a slightly bigger question. If more cultural spaces, including grassroots music venues, begin to think consciously about ethics and and their responsibility, you know, what kind of cultural landscape could that create, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

I think it's we are we are in the the reality of the world situation that we're in. We are in the challenges that we're all being faced as individuals, as um charities, as you know, private enterprises or whatever it is, it is incredibly tough out there. But I think if if we have more thought, more kind of understanding about how human connection, how just a conversation, uh a gig, how important that is, and how we can create and hold that safe space, you've brilliantly named. Um thank you. Yeah, um, if we can we if we can have that at grassroots music venues that where people can go and you can feel that, then that shifts away from the terror and the horror, and it kind of it's that moment of where, yeah, I I am scared of things. I'm you know, I'm a parent, I've got children, they're gonna go out in the world and they're gonna have to sort of you know survive in some ways, but there is also when you have um cultural spaces that hold the space, make that space safe, then it means that there's hope. There's there's real hope that we have for kindness, compassion for each other that means that yeah, if I do fall over in the street, I think I will be helped rather than sort of you know kicked or something, yeah. And I think that it it's just we we need to help each other in finding the strength to do that at times, and that's where the MBT thinking of the project, you know, and trying to sort of help the venues as they do in just an enormous number of ways, I just think is so powerful, but there is a societal shift that can happen as well, because there's lessons that can be learned. What the music venue trusts can are doing can happen in so many other sectors, yeah. In so many, you know, whether it's businesses, corporates, charities, arts, you know, whatever it might be. And I think we're all trying to do that, yeah, as cultural endeavours. I mean, at Conway Hall this week we've got um an opera that's gonna be with children performing and opera singers on climate change. Wow, that's really cool. Next next week we've got to talk about policing the police and the sort of the problems that we we face. But the how we're doing that is we're inviting people in, you know, to actually participate, to actually engage and actually talk about and witness and experience things, and that goes out into the world. People come in and they experience it, but they take it out with them. And I think that's where you know on the street you will see when you see an encounter that happens that you might be part of where you just witness, just you know, today, cyclist, you know, in was bombing down the street, you know, and sort of pulled up a little bit, and I was going to cross the road, and and then I sort of pulled back and saw him, and then he as he went past, just said thank you. Yeah, and so those moments, you know, of that kind of civilizing, social, humanizing elements that we find in um venues, they go out into the world and they're powerful things, and we should keep them going.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

That's beautiful, thank you, and a really lovely way to end the episode. So, Jim, honestly, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. It's been a beautiful conversation. And the Ethical Venues Project is about recognizing that grassroots music venues are more than just places where music happens. Um, they're spaces where communities gather, where ideas circulate, and where culture takes shape. And, you know, thinking carefully about the values behind those spaces may be one of the ways we can help protect them for the future. So thank you so much for joining me. My name's been Tony. Well, my name's still Tony. Your name's Jim. This has been the last safe space. Let's keep the lights on.