Ep 37: Enneagram Explained: Find Your Personality Type, Improve Relationships & Succeed at Work | @EnneagramAshton

What is your Enneagram type—and what does it actually say about you?

In this episode of Who Let Me Do This, I sit down with Enneagram expert, speaker, and author Ashton Whitmoyer Ober (aka @EnneagramAshton) to break down everything you think you know about personality types—and what you’re probably getting wrong.

She also reads my Enneagram type live and WOW let me tell you...it was part therapeutic, part soul baring vulnerability. 

We cover:

• What the Enneagram really is (and why personality tests are only ~60% accurate)
• The 9 Enneagram types explained in simple terms
• How your core motivations drive your behavior (not just your personality)
• Why the Enneagram is more powerful than Myers-Briggs or DISC
• How to use the Enneagram in your career, leadership, and relationships
• What your “stress” and “growth” types reveal about you
• And… when Ashton reads MY Enneagram type live...she calls me out a little

If you’ve ever felt like personality tests didn’t fully capture you—or you want to better understand yourself, your partner, or your team—this episode is your starting point.

🎯 Whether you’re a working mom, a leader, or just someone trying to figure yourself out, this conversation will change how you see yourself and others.

Connect with Ashton:
 Instagram: @enneagramashton
 Website: enneagramashton.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I don't know if I'll ever be content. Like, I've hit so many milestones and goals in my career and financially that I thought once I get to this level or title, like I'll be good. And then I got to that, I'm like, what's next?

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Is it is that because you are looking for contentment, or is it that you like that people see you a certain way for achieving those things?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Hey fraud squad, welcome to Who Let Me Do This? I'm your host, Sadie. And this is the podcast for anyone who's ever looked around and thought, wait, who trusted me with this job, with these kids, and with this life? Here's the deal. I'm not here to hand you the perfect five-step plan to get your life together. I'm here to share the chaos, the fails, the small wins, and the oh my God, same moments of trying to be a working mom, a decent human, and occasionally a functioning adult. And because we are all out here winging it together, I'll also bring in actual experts to drop some wisdom and share tips that might make our lives easier. Just a little. So if you're listening, congrats. You're officially a part of the fraud squad. That's our little community of imposters, hot messes, and overachievers who are all just faking it together. So grab your coffee, grab your wine, or let's be real, grab the leftover food from dinner that your kid didn't eat and let's dive in. Oh, and if you like what you hear, hit subscribe so you never miss an episode and share it with a friend who could, I don't know, use a laugh. Or maybe just a little solidarity. The more of us in the fraud squad, the better. Hey guys, welcome back to the Who Let Me Do This podcast. I am so excited to welcome Ashton Whitmoyer Ober. Let me say that again. To welcome Ashton Whitmoyer Ober, also known as Enneagram Ashton on Instagram, who is not only a mom of two young kids, she's an Enneagram expert. She is a speaker and an author of three books. Absolute badass. Welcome to the podcast. We are so excited to have you. Thanks so much for having me. I am pumped to be here. Oh my gosh. Okay. So before we dive into everything, Enneagram, I want to know like who is Ashton? Give me a little background of who you are, where you grew up, and how you ended up where you are today.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Yeah. So, like you said, I am a mom of two. So my youngest, he just turned three. And then I have a five-year-old. So we're in a really fun stage right now. And I have a really cool husband. We live in Central PA. I grew up here. I went away to college to East Carolina University and said I'd never come back. And then here I was and I came back. So I feel like that happens all the time. But I uh have always been super interested in other people. Like I'm very people focused and have always wanted to learn more about others and how people work. And so naturally I went into the field of psychology. Um, and so I have my bachelor's in psychology and my master's in community psychology. And that's where I discovered the Enneagram and became totally obsessed with it. But prior to doing this work, I've always worked in the field of domestic violence and sexual assault prevention. And so that is just a really big uh passion of mine, too, is helping people have healthier relationships and making sure that people have the resources that they need to overcome some of the most difficult uh pieces of their lives.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

So wow. Okay, that's amazing. So awesome, especially as you know, a mom and a mom to a daughter. That's amazing. Thank you for doing that work because it is so important. So talk to me a little bit about you were in school with psychology. What did you think you were gonna do before you discovered the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_03 4:07

So I always thought that I would continue on in this pathway of like domestic violence, sexual violence support in whatever way, because prior to working for our state organization, I um worked at a local center. So I would, I was their prevention person. So I would go into schools in our county and teach about consent, bodily autonomy, um, healthy relationships, et cetera. I kind of just thought I'd always like continue down this path of like doing prevention work, you know, either on the state level or the national level. But I've always wanted to be a speaker. So like I've all that always was like kind of a dream of mine when I, you know, was going into these schools or like doing assemblies, you know, like it was essentially doing that. And so um I just didn't, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to like make the worlds like connect or to collide. Like all of my different, I have all these different passions. And like, how do I make it all fit together? And so that is, you know, what I've been doing essentially doing for the past almost seven years.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Oh my gosh, this is so cool. Okay, so then you're in school, you discover the Enneagram, and are you you become obsessed with it? Literally obsessed, yeah. And from there, as soon as you found out about it, were you like, this is what I am gonna build a business around? Or was it just like natural obsession, you couldn't stop talking about it, and it just kind of took over your life?

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Yeah, that. So what happened was I was driving home from family like seven hours away on New Year's Day 2019. And at this point, I had like been like known about the Enneagram for six months, maybe. And I was driving home and I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna create an Instagram account and I'm gonna just share with people like what I'm learning because I want, you know, other people to have like this, it's cheesy, but to have like this gift of the Enneagram because it's like so cool and helpful. And so I was driving home and I created my account and then it just kind of like blew up. And I remember saying to my, he was my fiance at the time, now my husband, about three months later. I remember thinking, like, I think this is turning into something. And I don't know what, but I feel like I need to like get certified in it because I had people who were asking me to help them figure out their type, and I am a two, and I'm the helper. And so I wanted to help them, but I wanted to do it in like the correct way. And so I went and became certified in the Enneagram, and then um my account grew to like 200,000 by the end of the year, so 200,000 in one year, and then um like I quit my full-time job in um like February of 2020. So it was like just a little over a year. So I was driving to my full-time job, which was uh about an hour there and an hour back. So about two hours a day. So I would drive there, you know, this was before um work from home, remote work. So I would drive there and back, and then I would like have Enneagram clients until like 10 p.m. I didn't have kids, right? So like okay, I could, I could like totally do this at this point. But um, so I would drive there and back, I'd have like a two-hour round trip commute. I'd take Enneagram clients until 10 p.m. And then I'd wake up and I'd do it all over again. And so in February of 2020, I was like, okay, something's gotta give. Like I feel like I can make this work. I just gotta take the risk and take the jump and do it. And I'll still do some like part-time consulting work, you know? And just in case. And then the world shut down. And so I was like, oh, all of these like in-person events that like I thought I was going to be booking turned virtual. But honestly, it was like the best thing that could have ever happened because so many people then took on like virtual events and and were like, okay, like we can do this. We can have people from all over the country come in and speak to our team or to our college or to our, you know, student organization. And so then it opened so many more doors for me, to be honest. I mean, it was very scary when it was like, oh, I just took the risk and quit my job. And now like the world is on fire. But it's just about like pivoting and figuring out, you know, how to make it work.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Oh my gosh. Okay, I love that story. That's so amazing and so much resiliency, obviously, right? In that space of like, something's gotta give. Yeah. And you're like, I'm gonna do it. And then the age-old COVID hit. Yeah, world shut down. Yeah. And I think I've had other guests on the show where we've talked a lot about like something massive has changed in the business they had planned to have. Yeah. And it's like you have one of two options. You can sit back and say, shoot, that's this is a sign I shouldn't be doing this. Or you can say, wait a minute, maybe this doesn't look exactly how I expected, but like I'm gonna pivot like you did, and I'm gonna keep grinding away and build what I'm passionate about and and like look at you now. I think I was on your Instagram account yesterday, you have like over 500,000 followers. Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's still it still is weird to me. No, but it's so amazing. And it's like I think like a perfect, you know, right with the the name of this podcast is Who Let Me Do This? Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

It's literally to do this.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Yeah, like you deserve every single follower you have. There's a reason people are following you and you've worked your ass off to get here. But at the same time, the whole idea of when you step back and look at this business you've built and the followership that you have and being like, What? Like, how did we get here? Like, we know how we got here, Ashen. Like we got here because you were a baddie and you weren't working your ass off. But at the same time, I'm sure there's moments where you're going to do a speaking gig or you have a company reach out to you and you're like, how is this my life right now?

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Who let me do this? Yeah, that's literally what I'm like. Who let this girl get on the stage in front of all of these like men in healthcare? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yes, yes, awesome, what I think.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Why are they listening to me?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Oh my gosh, this is so amazing. Okay, let's dig into the Enneagram. So I have taken so many Enneagram tests, but they are not all created equal. Right? Right. Yeah. And so how I think the first question I have for you is like, if someone is, they've dabbled in the Enneagram world. Uh, I think a lot of people know about the Enneagram from Instagram and they're like, oh, I resonate with a two, I resonate with a seven, or they follow some Enneagram account, and that's how they're kind of learning about it. If someone is like, I don't know a lot about it, I think I'm this. How do you know if an Enneagram test is legit or not?

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yeah. So my thoughts on tests in general, they're a great place to start, but a test can never truly tell you what type you are. You might, you know, coincidentally, it might be the same. But the thing about tests is that we are answering questions based on how we want other people to perceive us. Even if we like really work hard not to do that, like we're human. And so a lot of the times we're doing that and we're also answering on how based on how we feel that day, right? So actually, yesterday my sister just um had sent me like an Adobe quiz that um like she had to take at work. It was like, which Adobe creative are you? And the results that I got from I took it three times because I was like, this is not me. Like this is literally not me. But I was like, it came out to be like, this is embarrassing that I'm sharing this, but I am anyways. It came out that I was like the guide. I was like the leader. And I said to in this group chat with my sister and my and our spouses, like, I am not a leader. Like I am a really great follower. Like I excel at following, but I'm not a leader. And but in that moment, I had like had a really great day in business. Yeah. I had, you know, like been on all of these calls and I felt really confident. And so I answered questions probably based on how I felt in that moment. And the same is true with Enneagram tests. The other thing about the Enneagram is that it's not about our behaviors, like Myers Briggs, Strength Finders Disk Assessment, like those are primarily about our behaviors. But the Enneagram is focused on our motivations. So why we behave a certain way, why we do things the way that we do. And so when we're answering questions in an Enneagram test, it's hard to get to those motivations, right? You're like answering, you know, would you uh face conflict head on, or are you more likely to shy away from it? And, you know, it's hard for us to say it depends. Well, we can't say it depends, right? Where like some people will say to me, Well, Ashton, I have no problem facing conflict head on in the workplace, but at home, like I definitely avoid it. Like those are the things that we aren't able to answer to a computer who's like producing these results. So that's why I always suggest to take an Enneagram test that will give you a probability, kind of what I sent to you, that's a pie chart. Uh, so that then you can take your highest like scores and dive deeper into those types versus the types I or the tests I definitely don't trust are those that will just shoot out like, you are a seven, you are a two. Because I'm like, how do they actually know that? So in general, tests are really only about 60% accurate. And it's up to us to do the work to determine what really resonates with us.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Okay, that's super, super helpful. Where did Enneagram come from? Like, I feel like all of a sudden it kind of exploded and everyone was like, What's your Enneagram? Do you know your Enneagram? And I was like, I don't know. Like, I'm, you know, my I know my Myers Brig and I know my disc and all of that, but where did this come from? And like what created this rise in popularity with it?

SPEAKER_03 14:20

So the Enneagram is actually one of the oldest uh typing systems out there. It's between two to four thousand years old. It started in the Middle East and transitioned over to like South America with some psychologists, and then it was brought to um the United States in like the 50s and 60s. So it is really, really old. Um, the rise in popularity is because of the internet. So um, you know, so the first books really weren't written in English uh until like the 1980s, and so it it like spiked in popularity then because of like access to information at that point. And then it kind of died off, you know, like Myers Briggs got really um popular and disk assessment. A lot of companies were using disk assessment. But then with the introduction of the internet and specifically social media about 20 years ago, that's when the rise in uh popularity started to resurface for the Enneagram and where people actually had time and resources to sit and, you know, learn about it. And I think what sets it off and why people become obsessed with it is again because it's about your motivations and not your behaviors. So let's say, like in a relationship, you have, you know, one person who is very like extroverted or outgoing, and one person who's really introverted. It's really not like the introversion that you're trying to understand. It's why do they feel the need to like recharge by themselves? And that can be super helpful and eye-opening to people when they're trying to understand other people.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah. Okay. I feel like this should also be a part of all like marriage therapy and or like pre-premaring, obviously. Yeah. She's like, I'm actually starting a new program. Um, okay, so there's nine types of anyogram. Yes. Can you give us high level? Otherwise, I know we'll be here all day, uh, when we think about types one through nine and what they're called and just like the quick synopsis.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So when I talk about motivations, you know, I've said like motivations several times, your motivations are split up into your biggest fears, so what you fear the most, and your biggest desire, so what you want the most. And so each type has a biggest fear and a biggest desire. And then from there come some of your stereotypical behaviors that you see associated with those types. So for ones, their biggest fear is being seen as a bad person, being wrong, doing the wrong thing. Whereas their biggest desire is to be seen as a good person, to do the right thing, to be moral, ethical, correct, and for other people to just do the right thing. For twos, they're called the helper. So their biggest fear is being unloved, unwanted, not being needed, not being appreciated for the things that they're doing. And then their biggest desire is to be loved, wanted, needed, appreciated. For threes, they're the achiever. So their biggest fear tends to be failure. So they fear failure the most, but then ultimately they fear being seen as uh like invaluable or incompetent or not respected. And then their biggest desire, they do want success, but ultimately they want to be respected and valued and seen as competent because of that success. Fours are called the individualist. So their biggest fear tends to be seen as uh defective or like something is inherently wrong with them, that something is missing in them, that they are like insignificant. Whereas their biggest desire is to be seen as unique and special and significant and kind of like a little bit different, just set apart from other people, and really to just be seen. Like fours really want to be seen. And stereotypically, they are going to be the type that is the most in tune with their emotions and other people's emotions. The five is called the investigator. They're going to be the ones that spend the most time in their head and stereotypically going to be the ones that are the most introverted. But it's because their biggest fear is having their personal resources depleted or having their like personal space invaded on. So you can see how that like sounds like an introvert, right? Yeah. So, um, and then they also fear not knowing something. So being seen as ignorant or like incapable or incompetent because they don't know something. And then on the other side, like their biggest desire is to know, like to gain knowledge and to uh be able to share that knowledge with other people and to be seen as like competent and capable because of what they know. The six is the loyalist. So their biggest fear tends to be fear itself. So they have the strongest connection to fear. A lot of people will assume if they like experience any sort of anxiety that they must be a six, but it's and that's just because you know, the internet and me and just like you know, it's out there that that is the thing. But it really looks like worst-case scenario thinking or self-doubt. But in other people, it might feel like anxiety. And then their biggest desire is to have safety and security and to seek guidance from other people, um, which is really important. I'm getting ahead of myself, but like in a workplace, these are the people that really need like support from like their people and their like supervisors. Um, okay, sevens, they're called um the enthusiast. So they're typically the most outgoing or extroverted of all of the type of the types. Their biggest fear, they do have a lot of FOMO. So they do have that fear of missing out, but they also fear being trapped in any sort of emotional pain or negativity or anything that could hold them down or hold them back. And then their biggest desire is to have fun, but really they are seeking contentment. So stereotypically, sevens love to experience new things or go on new adventures or try something new. And that's because they're looking for what's going to make them feel content. Eights are the challenger. So their biggest fear is being seen as weak or powerless or controlled in some way. And then their biggest desire is to protect themselves and other people. This typically looks like people that they feel need to be protected. So, like their people or vulnerable populations or people that don't have the voice to speak up and say, you know, what's going on. And so they feel like they need to step in and protect them. And then nines, they are the peacemaker. So their biggest fear tends to be conflict. That doesn't mean that no one else can fear conflict. It's just for nines, it's that main motivation that drives their behaviors. Then they also fear being separated from the people that they love or abandoned. And then their biggest desire is to maintain a peaceful environment for the themselves and for the people around them. So they just want to make sure that like everybody's happy, everybody has what they need, and that everybody is at peace.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

So with all these different types, I know you said these some of these tests are only about 60% accurate. And so are people truly one Enneagram type or are they multiple? Can you shift throughout your life? Like, how does that, like, what is the flexibility or like fluidity of the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Great question. So your type is your type from birth. It's more of the nature versus nurture mentality. And so that's why you can see siblings who like grew up in a similar environment, maybe similar experiences, have different types. So you should be able to look back on your life experiences and see how your type showed up in those experiences versus those experiences dictating what your type actually is. So your type will stay the same. What can fluctuate is your wings.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

So I wanted to get into the wing thing.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Yeah. So your wings are the number on either side of your main type. So let's say that you're a seven, your wings would be a six or an eight. Most people will say that they do have a wing that is stronger than the other. So I'm a two, I have a very strong three wing. It doesn't mean that my one wing doesn't exist. It's just like right now in this stage of my life as an entrepreneur, a business owner, like my three kind of has to shine through. And the purpose of the wings is you just pull characteristics from them. So, like how it looks for me as a two, where my motivations are to be loved, wanted, appreciated, needed. But some of my behaviors look like a three where I'm like motivated and driven and have my to-do list and checking things off, you know? And so you can see how they like fit together as the person. So your wings can fluctuate. So a lot of people come to me and say, Well, I feel like I'm this wing at home and I'm this wing at work. And I'm like, that's totally normal. Like, totally normal for that to happen. Or like I'm a I felt like I was a two-wing three, you know, 10 years ago, but now I feel more of a two-wing one. So those are the things that can fluctuate, but your main type will stay the same throughout your life.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

And so then if you're like for you, for you being a type two, your wing would never be on the opposite side of the circle. Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

So a common misconception is that it's like your second highest score. And this is again where tests come in and and you know, stress me out because I'm like, you're giving people false information. I know, so frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Because uh, you know, people will take like their, they're like, oh, I scored high for a two, a nine, and a seven. So I must be a two wing nine. And I'm like, no, your wings have to be next to your type. So the nine is probably irrelevant. And people don't like that answer, right? They're like, but it's on here, it must mean something. And then I try to explain, and what I'll do with you when we look through yours is try to explain the similarities between the two and the nine and how you could have scored high for both. I when I take a test, I actually don't score for a two. I score as a nine and a three, and then a two.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So, but you score as a nine and a three on the test, but you just know so much about the and the behaviors where you're like, no, I know this is what it's saying based on how I answer these questions, but like in my heart of hearts, I know I'm actually a two.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

And so that's probably an element of this too. Like maybe the test is a really good starting point. But as you're reading through what it says you are or the type you are, if you're like, this is just not me. Like, I am not resonating with it. Yeah. That potentially it's really understanding more about the other types and being open to that.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yep. How do you feel like people use Enneagram today? And when I say people, I mean like the general public, like not someone who's gotten to work with Ashton, but like someone who is, they've taken the quiz online, their friend sent them a quiz, they they follow an Instagram account that does the Enneagram doodles, you know, where it's like Enneagram 2 is morning routine, you know, or whatever. How does someone like that use the Enneagram? And what could people be doing with the Enneagram? Or what should people be doing with this Enneagram information?

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Yeah. So it makes me so sad when people just figure out their type and then they just like move on with the world because there's just so much that goes into it. Um, and so I feel like probably a lot of people are doing that, or they might follow accounts just because like it's funny, or you know, like they just, you know, their friend told them to figure out their type and they figured it out and then they just move on. But there, as you can see in my background, a lot of these are Enneagram books. So there's like a lot of different over here, really. These are like all Enneagram books. Um, a lot of people, or there are a lot of resources that are out there for people to dive deeper because what that can do for you is not just understand more about you and who you are, but then to also have that information to better understand other people. So what I really wish people were doing was a, it's never too late to learn more about yourself. Okay. So I um I'm gonna tell this story because it's fresh on my mind. But literally yesterday, so yesterday we were recording this on March 18th, yesterday was St. Patrick's Day. Yesterday, my sister calls me and goes, Hey, I did one of those DNA things and you're like gonna die. Because our entire lives we were told like we are German. Okay. German, German, German. Like we're in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Dutch, German. And my dad's side absolutely is, but my mom's side came back as 0% German, 0%, and that we have this huge chunk of Irish. Okay. So I am 36 and I am just figuring this out. And I was thinking about this in the context of the Enneagram because so many people are like, oh, I'm, you know, in my late 30s, I'm in my 40s, my 50s, like I know who I am, I know the things I like to do. And it is never too late to figure out more of who you are to become a better version of yourself. Because when we understand our motivations, then only then can we understand our behaviors. If you are wondering why you go from zero to 100 when you're stressed out and flipping out, I guarantee you the Enneagram can explain that to you. And so that's what I want people to do is to understand themselves, but also to be able to understand each other because it's going to give you a better life. I mean, it's like so cheesy. But if you are under, let's say in the workplace, for example, if you have a colleague who is just constantly procrastinating or turning things in late and you're and you're not like that at all, or not wired like that at all, is it okay that they're doing that? No, but knowing their Enneagram type can help you understand why it is that they might get caught up in that or why it might feel safer for them to do that. And so I just think that everybody would be so much happier and more content if they had a better understanding of who they are and the people around them. I mean, we were talking about marriage, right? So my husband is an Enneagram six. He like needs to be prepared. He needs, you know, me not to like spring on him, like, hey, we're gonna go to the zoo tomorrow. Like, so me knowing that about him allows us to have a better relationship because we have a deeper understanding of how each other like operates and deals with things.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

And and I think it's important to state, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in like the workplace example, let's say you're like I have a team at work or you're a leader of a team of people, and we're not, you're not necessarily suggesting, and you could do this, but you're not necessarily suggesting that everyone in your life you're like, take an Enneagram test so I can understand who you are. But what you're saying is you can educate yourself in the Enneagram philosophy and world enough to be able to interpret people's behaviors and actions to say they are likely maybe this type. And because of what I know about this type, I can offer empathy, I can offer understanding. I might approach a situation differently with them. And so while in a perfect world, we're all walking around with an Enneagram number on our chest, and so you can be like, that person wants me to wave or they don't want me to wave. But but in reality, it's it's it's giving yourself the knowledge and education so that one, you have a self-awareness, which everyone could use more self-awareness, but two, you can have awareness into how other people might interact, perceive you, or how you might best partner with them.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Yeah, a hundred percent. I do wish that, you know, a lot of companies use disk assessment in their hiring practices or like with their teams. And I do wish that they would move to Enneagram because again, you're like missing this whole like, okay, you have this dominant, you have this group of dominant people, but the Enneagram's gonna tell you why, you know, and and gonna tell you why this person, this dominant person does things this way and this person does things this way. And so I do wish that, you know, teams would take the Enneagram and have that as a tool in their toolbox and you know, have that to be able to facilitate conversations. But there's just so much that you can do with it once you really like dive in. And I'm not saying like, you know, start an Instagram account and become obsessed and go down my go down my path, but don't also don't just like figure out your type and move on. And that and that's what I tell teams when I work with them and I like go in and I talk to them and I, you know, do team building activities. I'm like, I don't want this conversation to end today. Like you need to continue bringing this up in your team meetings and in your conversations and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

So I've worked in corporate America for over a decade, 15 years, 12 years, I'm 35. Um, and I've taken so many assessments. I'm also an HR and we love an assessment in HR, but just in corporate America, right? Like I've taken the disc, I've taken Myers Briggs, I've taken uh Strengths Finders, all of those things. I've never taken an Enneagram test at work, and it's actually never even come up. I'm curious your perspective. Do you think part of that is because of the rise in popularity of Enneagram in social settings? When I say social settings, I mean like on Instagram, on TikTok, and they are the cute doodles that it almost has invalidated the not philosophy, but like the um professionalism that can be utilized from something like the Enneagram. Because I feel like companies lean towards something like a disc assessment or strength finders because it has this book attached and it came up in popularity in the corporate world versus I feel like Enneagram from like my perspective really blew up in social media like with millennials. Yeah. And do you feel like that's impacted the ability for companies to take it seriously unless they really understand what it is?

SPEAKER_03 33:21

I think so. And I think that um even though it's so old, it's like fairly new to people's knowledge, you know? And so I think that um, and like think about how many books on like Myers Breaks have been written. And when I first started doing this, no joke, there were maybe like five books. And yeah, and I um, and there was like only one book that like every single person was reading. And so that's a big reason why I was like, I have to write some books because like there needs to be some um research, you know, there needs to be some like data that's showing people like this is how this can impact your workplace. And I also think that like so much of corporate is like, this is how we've always done. This is like the way that we've always done things. And so it's hard to like break through and try something new, but I'm also so grateful that some companies are because they're able to see like so many like tangible results.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah. I also just want to mention that your three is showing right now with the ability to say, like, there's not a lot of books. So I'm gonna write some. I know.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

So I'm gonna write some.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

And then I'm going to go into these workplaces and tell them, like, this is what you need to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yes. No, I love that. Like your three is showing and I'm like here for it. Um okay. So it sounds like like what we've talked about, just like to re- And there are a lot of books now.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Like there are like other people also have that. Then here's my two being like, but other people are also doing it.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I love everyone, everyone's included.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Everybody's included. Read everybody's books, not just. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

So what like the recap I think of this is before we go into like my Enneagram readout, which I know I'll have a thousand questions because one, people love talking about themselves. Like anyone can say that to learn about themselves, but that's it's lies. Um, is like the recap being do the research, learn your Enneagram type. Don't step at your type though. Understand all of the types because understanding yourself, huge step forward. But if you don't understand how others might perceive you or how others might be coming into a situation, you're still operating in a vacuum. Yeah. And take the test, but that isn't the end all be all. Like that is kind of a starting point, but really it's understanding, it's researching, it's it's pressure testing, being honest with yourself that is really going to help you leverage what the Enneagram can provide to you.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I always say, you know, people have this strong instinct when they read a book to like just go to their chapter. I'm like, no, like we wrote the book for you to read it from beginning to end. Like, no jumping ahead.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yes. Wait, before you read my Enneagram time, out of curiosity, do you know what your kids are?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

I don't. So this is a great question because um I get this question all the time. And it's really hard at this age to because we're looking at them, right? And we're seeing their behaviors. And so we don't know what their motivations are. And so people always ask me, like, when can you figure out your kids' types? And it really isn't until they have the ability to say, like, this is why I did this thing. So I always use this example of my, he's uh nine now, but my nine-year-old nephew as a kid was just very like structure, he still is very structured, very critical of himself, like building Legos, you know, if one piece was out of order or like he would line his cars up. And so looking at him, I would be like, oh, he must be an Enneagram one, like very focused on doing the right thing, having things in order. But at the end of the day, like I don't know if he is, you know, doing that because that feels safe to him, like a um six, or I don't know if he's doing that because he feels like that's a way to um succeed, like a three, you know. So we can see behaviors at this age, but until they have the ability to communicate why they're doing things a certain way, then we really don't know.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

I have another follow-up question with that. That's super interesting. Are there also, because I feel like in sometimes when you take some of these personality assessments, they'll be like, great careers for uh ESTJ or whatever, you know, with Meyer Briggs or a great career for someone with this six strings with Enneagram. I feel like I've seen the same thing of potential careers for this Enneagram. Is there actually with Enneagram types? Do you see people going into certain, like for instance, the helper, are they often in medical fields? Or is that like a massive assumption?

SPEAKER_03 37:52

So it's you know, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence about that because you know, the behaviors that are associated with the two, like they are nurturing and they're caring and they're compassionate. And so again, stereotypically, you might see some of those fields that you have to be nurturing and compassionate and uh helping, you know, like the helping field. Um, but the way that I view it um or teach people about it, especially like in a corporate setting, when they have a team and they're like missing some types, they're like, oh, well, you know, maybe that type just doesn't, you know, work in this field. And I'm like, it's about looking at the types and how those characteristics fit into the job they're doing. So for example, I'm speaking at a conference for nurses next week. And will there be a lot of twos there? Yes. But, you know, I know personally like some eights that are going to be there. And that's, you know, they might be taking on leadership roles in nursing, or they're more, you know, they're highly empathetic. They're fighting for their patients, they're advocating, you know. So you can see there might be some careers that um have a just a higher likelihood that they might go into them, but you can see how all of the different types find their place.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

What about people who are like entrepreneurs, or is there a certain type or a couple types that we often see moving into leadership roles or making it to a certain level within a corporate America?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah. So again, stereotypically, like your eights are your like natural leaders. So I come in and I talk about leadership a lot. And any type can be a leader. They all have qualities that can be a leader, but some might have to work a little bit harder than your eights and your ones, ones and your threes. Um, threes in general, because they have this desire to be success, successful, they're going to be, you know, striving to do that in whatever way. And so they might climb the ladder, so to speak, or like try to climb the ladder, or, you know, pave their own way like an entrepreneur. But then they also might get stuck in workaholic tendencies because they want to feel valued for the work that they're doing. And so they have a hard time shutting it down because they know that their value comes from what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Okay. And then my last question, and then we can read my Enneagram, my Enneagram profile, is um, can you forcefully change your Enneagram type? No. So it's just who you are at its core. And so you might recognize your weaknesses and you might need to lean in harder into a different type of behavior, but like you are who you are. Yeah. You are who you are. Or whatever you are. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Read me. Like, how does this work? What do you like? Talk to me a little bit about like if you're gonna read someone's Enneagram, like how are you reading? It came as a pie chart. Yeah. That was sent to you. What are you looking for when you're doing this? And then like tell me all about me.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

So um you scored highest for a two and a well, three, a three and a two. And then the ones that were very close were um six, seven, nine. So really only a few that you like definitely aren't, which is funny. Um, but you scored highest for a three, a two. And so what I would ask people then is um what do you feel like resonates with you about the three? So the three is the achiever. And so I mentioned that their biggest fear tends to be failure and that their biggest desire tends to be success. So, what about the three resonates with you?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Everything. Uh people who know me in personal life know I'm psychotic. I am super, super ambitious, but it so resonates with me that you say their biggest fear is failure because I'm super ambitious, but I hate to put a label on what I want to achieve because the second I put a label on what I want to achieve, if I don't achieve it, I failed. And so, like in my corporate career, right, I often will get asked by um mentors or my leadership teams of like, well, what level do you want to get to? And I'm like too, I'm so coy to be like, I want to be head, I want to lead a team, I want to be, you know, chief HR officer, anything like that. Because the second I say that, if I get to a point where I can't do that or my life has changed and that no longer becomes a priority, to me that feels like a failure. And so it's so interesting because I'm never not working to be successful. I'm never not working to achieve more. But I have a really hard time being loud about it because of perceived failure for sure.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

Interesting. Um, and it's like one question that I typically ask people who are trying to figure out if they're at three is do you are you so afraid of failure that you're afraid to do something that you know you're not naturally good at?

SPEAKER_01 43:11

I wouldn't say I don't do things I'm not naturally good at.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

I'll try everything. But I'm very big on, and actually read between the lines with this statement. I'm very big on leaning into the things that bring me joy and light me up. And those are things I'm naturally good at. For instance, like this podcast, I love talking to people, I love connecting with people. That is a very easy thing for me to do. The element of the social media with the podcast is not natural. And so when I first started this business, I immediately was like, I need to outsource the social media because I'm not good at it. It takes more time, it takes more energy, it's not as fun for me. And so, in a way, I leaned out of it, but I didn't say, I I can't start a podcast because I don't do social media. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah, totally. So what's interesting is you also scored high for a seven. And threes and sevens can look very similar because of um like the optimistic piece, like the happiness, the seeking joy, like things like that. But it's it's around, you know, what's the motivation of that? Is it that you're looking to have fun and you're looking for contentment? Or is that you're looking to succeed and be seen as like be respected and seen as capable because you succeeded?

SPEAKER_00 44:38

First of all, I feel like we're burying my soul, which is fine. That is the point of this podcast. But I You signed up for this. I know, I know. I gotta, I gotta bet myself a little bit more. No, I would say for sure, it's interesting because I want to be successful. I grew up with successful parents. And what motivated them also motivated, like I'm very motivated by money. And I that to me was a very uncomfortable thing to say forever. And it's like, no, I loved a fat check. I love to get promoted. I love the recognition, all of that. But when I think about what motivates me to make a lot of money, to climb the corporate ladder, is I want to be able to afford a big house, not to be able to say I live in a big house, but because I want entertaining space and I want to bring my family together and entertain. I want to be able to bring my kids on vacations without being worried how that's gonna impact our bottom line finances. I want my kids in the safest daycares, all of that. At the same time, one of the things I talked about in a different episode on the podcast is I don't know if I'll ever be content. Like I've hit so many milestones and goals in my career and financially that I thought I remember when I was like in my 20s, it was like, if the when I first when I start making 100K a year, I'll have made it and I'll be able to have this life that I I want. And then I I accomplished that and I was like, what's next? And then it was like once I start, once I get to this level or title, like I'll be good. And then I got to that, I'm like, what's next? And so I've achieved so many of the things, but I'm not like, and I'm chilling. Like it's like, nope, like there's more to do, there's more impact to have. So tell me, is that real?

SPEAKER_03 46:19

So is it yeah? So is that because you like are looking for like contentment or is it you or is it that you also you have to be honest with yourself a little bit here? And do you like that people see you a certain way for achieving those things?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Oh, I like people seeing me a certain way for achieving those things. And I don't like that about myself. I will be very, I very much am someone who I like to be liked. I like when people like me. I like when people are proud of me. Historically, I've always been very extrinsically motivated in the sense of when growing up, my parents would say, Hey, good job, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, they said good job.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

And me doing the same thing the next day and not getting a good job was not as big of an accomplishment for me. Right. And so I I like the idea of people looking at me and saying, Wow, she's doing it. Wow, she's really done it. She did a really good job, or she she has achieved so much.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

And sevens don't really care about that as much. Like they want to um seek contentment, but they don't really need the validation quite like twos, threes, and fours in general typically need some validation. Um okay, my next question for you is what things typically stress you out?

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Noise.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Noise is the biggest one. I don't know if that it's something to do with the Enneagram. I also think, well, yeah, noise for sure stresses me out. Um I get overwhelmed very easily, but it's self-inflicted. And like I will put so much on my plate because there's all these things I want to achieve. And then I get overwhelmed that no one's helping me or that I have so much to do.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Um and then what happens when you're stressed like that?

SPEAKER_00 48:26

I cry. I'm a big, I love, I love a cry session, and I feel really bad for myself. Um I shut down a little bit. Like, and I'm I can feel myself like when I'm really overwhelmed and really stressed out. Like I've had a big week in my corporate job, kids are sick, it's summer camp sign up, all the things are happening. I start to feel really depressed and like low and down and irritable. I've gotten a lot better as I've gotten older to like pause and say, like, what can I take off my plate or delegate or communicate with my husband and say, I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now? Can you take over X, Y, and Z, which feels better? But definitely that's something that's a learned behavior. That is not a natural thing for me to do.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Do you feel like you ever, when you're stressed, you ever like um procrastinate or like don't do anything, like need to just kind of like binge?

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Not really. I I've never been a procrastinator. I don't always finish tasks, but that might be more related to ADHD than my Enneagram type. Um, but how I recharge. Like if I'm like, I'm overwhelmed, I need to take a pause, I need to take a break, my recharge time is bedroug a hundred percent. It's not like going on a run, you know, it's not like going to the zoo with my kids. Like those things, no. Like it would be laying in my bed, watching a little bit of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or Secret Live of Mormon Wives, having a glass of wine, but like alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Yeah. So one way that I explain like the three when they're stressed is that first of all, the things that stress them out is they become so overwhelmed with all the things that they have to do that they don't want to do any of it. And so they um withdraw and they go to the unhealthy nine. So um your nine was pretty high.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

What's the unhealthy nine? Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

The unhealthy nine is going to be, we actually refer to them as the sloth. Okay. So they like kind of just, you know, go along with their day. They go along to get along. They don't really have like strong opinions, they need silence and to kind of withdraw and remove themselves. Um, they, you know, are just trying to like keep the peace and get through the day.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Definitely a sloth in some ways. Like I love to lay on the couch, but I also, even when I'm like bedrotting, right? Or laying on the couch watching a TV show, I'm simultaneously like grocery shopping still. And like doing I s I actually don't ever turn off, which is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah. And why do you feel like you need to be doing that? Oh, the hard-hitting questions. I think one. I feel like if I don't do it, no one will.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Two, I do I like a checklist. Like I like to accomplish things. And sometimes if I am really overwhelmed and I make a to-do list, I know there's things that have a lower effort but high impact, whether it's like food in my family's fridge or making sure the kids are signed up for something or you know, whatever. So for me, I just feel like if I it feels lazy to me if I'm literally laying in bed and watching TV and literally not doing anything productive. I struggle with that.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

That was the word I was looking for. Like, do you feel this need to be productive even when you're doing nothing?

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Yes. Always feel need a need to be productive. And sometimes to the point where I'm like, I want to be doing two things at once. And I want to be, I used to always say, like, I'm the I'm a master multitasker. It's not really true. I actually start and don't finish activities often because I start something and I think of something else. I go and work on that. And so I'm multitasking, but I'm actually not. Like I'm just like kind of doing these like micro tasks and then having to go back and finish my micro tasks. Um, and then when I'm multi-quote unquote multitasking, it's like I'm doing a brainless activity. I'm on a walk, but I'm also catching up with my mom. I'm laying in bed, but I'm also grocery shopping. Um, I'm rubbing my kids back, but I'm also reading my book. Like it's it's always two things at once.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, do you ever feel like you struggle with like perfectionistic tendencies?

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yes, but not in the way that people I think of a perfectionist. Like you would never walk into my home and be like, she's a perfectionist. Like clutter doesn't bug me. A mess doesn't really bug me. Dirtiness does. But the perfectionism is more of the outward image. Okay. Yeah. Um, so how people are viewing you for and my cap my ability to do things. So like if the I want someone to look at me and say, she is the best HR executive I've ever met, you know, whether or not they know it, but I seem so capable. Or um she, she, even though I'm very open, like don't I do not live the perfect life, I'm very open with the things I struggle with, with mental health and all of that. But when people look and they say, wow, again, like she's really nailed it. Like she's married, she has these three beautiful kids, she's a really present mom. She also has a career. And then she does a podcast that is all about connecting women and helping women. And it's that piece where it's like that extrinsic motivation and capability, and like, what can't she do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

Mm-hmm. Um, that sounds very three. That sounds very three. My uh next question is do you care more about being liked or being respected? Liked. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Again, something I'm not proud of. But for me, like being able to walk into a room and make people laugh or connect, I guess I just assume that if you like me, you respect me, which is a probably a terrible assumption. But for someone to like respect the work I do, but then be like, she's a terrible person, I would I would that would destroy me. That would be really hard for me.

SPEAKER_03 54:44

So is it more important than for you to be seen as a good person or to be liked?

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Um I think good person, because I actually don't care if bad people don't like me. I guess that would be the line I've drawn. And I and but that might be a little bit learned because there were people like, you know, I think back to like high school and you would have like the mean girls, and I would never have treated people in the way that I saw them treating others or they treated me, but I still wanted them to like me. And so I think as I've matured and said, you know, it with self-practice is okay, this person doesn't like you, but why do you care if they like you? You know, like why what what in your life changes, or what value do they bring to your life if they like you when like you're not aligned with their values, you're not aligned with how they show up as a person. And like that needs to be okay too. So I think actually intrinsically, like naturally, that I want to be well liked by everyone and anyone. I think as I've matured and like tried to rewire myself, it's I need to feel good about who I am and not who others want me to be. Actually, that's a really good point. I have grown up wanting to be who others want me to be. You want me to be successful, I'll be successful. You want me to be a mom, I'll be a mom. You want me to be a star athlete, I'll be the star athlete. It's not that I didn't find joy in those things, but I was doing what I was supposed to do. Like I was doing what was what was right the whole time of you get good grades, you go to college, you work for a big company, you get married, you have kids. Like I did the Midwest thing. And then would end up in these phases where I'm like, yeah, but I'm like not happy. I'm not content. And then it's as I've gotten older to say, what do I want? And at the end of my life, where do I want to be? Which is a lot of how I started this podcast was because I felt a lot very, I felt very conflicted when I had kids and everyone was telling me, you should want to do anything you can to be with them all the time. And I was like, I don't feel that way. And I felt really bad. And I was like, oh my God, people aren't gonna like me if I'm not someone who wants to be a stay-at-home mom. People aren't gonna respect me if I'm not that way. And then ultimately I was like, but I would be miserable. Like if I was a stay-at-home mom, I would quite literally be miserable. And that doesn't benefit anyone. And so then it's like that. So I think like innately, I was one way, but then as I've matured, I'm leaning heavier or trying to pull out maybe some of those characteristics of a different Enneagram.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

Yeah, that's that's a good point. And looking at your chart, too, you know, you score high for a three, but you also score highish for a six. And threes go to six when they are the healthier versions of themselves. So this can look like being more like community-driven, um, team-oriented, you know, like no longer focusing on like you and what you're achieving, but like other people, like bringing them along for the ride, so to speak. Um, you know, being more like prepared and responsible and um loyal to like the people that you care about.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 58:08

It does resonate. And I think one thing that's really interesting that's coming up for me as we're talking about this is I, being very career-driven, very ambitious, was super focused, especially in my 20s, of like getting to getting promoted, getting to the next level, having this specific title. And I had this like transform transformative period of my life where I was like kind of hitting this ceiling in my career, like this dead end to my career. And I was like, What am I doing? Like, I what do I want? And I remember my bosses always being like, What's next for you? And I'm like, I want to get promoted. And they big why. And I'm like, because why wouldn't you want to get promoted? And they would say, Why do you want to be promoted, Sadie? And I was like, Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I want a higher title and more money? And I had this like trance, like, I sat back for a minute and I was so miserable in my job at the time and was like, I can't do this until I'm what, what is it, 59 and a half? I'm I'm so miserable. I'm like crawling along the corporate ladder and pause for a minute. And and I had at one point in another life of mine had built out this framework around finding work in a job that aligns with your passions, values, and skills. And within that conversation with myself, one of the things I was really pressure testing was like, why do you want to get promoted? Why do you want to have the specific title? And what it really came down to was like, I want to make more money because I want to enable the life I want. I want to travel with my kids, I want to have the entertaining house, I want to do all of those things. And then what came really became really apparent in that exercise I did was that the title actually doesn't matter to me. And so I've actually taken two demotions in my career where I've gone down in title and level, but I've gone up in compensation or up in impact. And it's fueled my fire and like fueled my soul in a new way. And now I've hit a point in my career where of course I always want to be making more money, right? Like that does fuel a lot for me. But when I look at opportunities at work, it's less about upward trajectory. It's more about like what you just said of what impact do I have? Who am I bringing along? How am I starting to develop that next level of people in my profession? And it, and it's like the work through others, which is motivating me versus me being like, hey, I'm Sadie and I've done X, Y, and Z. And I think like, again, it's like a maturity mindset shift, but I and this is where I struggle with like the Enneagram thing. And I'm trying to understand is the innate of like how I was in my 20s. And then as I've matured, I've had kids, I've a very different part of my career where I started to lean into.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

And if you feel like you are a three, that's definitely the six coming in, like being able to, you know, look at kind of the whole piece of the puzzle instead of just like you and climbing the ladder and getting this recognition, which and it doesn't mean that you like don't still like love recognition. Do you like recognition? I'm gonna assume. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Um, but there's different, uh, there's also other things that are going to like bring joy to you, and you don't always need that to happen when you're in like a healthier spot. And the thing about like healthy versus unhealthy when it comes to the Enneagram is like those things also fluctuate. Like one day you could be like, oh, I'm I'm a healthy version of my type. And the next day you could be like, no, I'm really craving, like I'm gonna, you know, work on my laptop until 11 p.m. because I need to get this task done. And like I said, threes in general struggle with being workaholics because they tie their value into what they're doing. Yep. And what they're achieving.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah. I could definitely see that. And I think the other thing that's been really interesting for me is I wouldn't define myself as a workaholic. I think my husband would and many people around me would. And the way I always describe it is I'm like, I have the best work life balance, but then in the current job I'm in right now, I'm working more hours than I ever have in my life, but I love the work I'm doing so much that it's any moment that I'm not literally feeding a child or like putting a child to bed. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna jump back and slack and I'm gonna answer those questions. And part of it is the recognition of like, gosh, Sadie's so on top of it. I'm not gonna say it's not part of it is there is more intrinsic motivation for me of like, gosh, it feels so good to get a question from a client at work and know the answer and be able to help in that way. Um, but I am always working and I always joke with people that when you find the career that you love and the job that you love, the way I feel is I could work seven days a week. And oftentimes I do. And it's not like I'm like, bye family, I can't spend time with you. I have to work, which is how I think of a workaholic.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

If we're being very honest, and like my dad knows this, my dad is a workaholic and he was growing up. But back then in the 90s, a workaholic meant he left for work before we went to school sometimes. And he would get home at 8 p.m. And it was like dad wasn't, he was so busy. He, my dad worked so hard. He was, he is so successful, but there would be so much time that so many things he missed. And so for me, that's my identity of a workaholic. And I don't miss stuff. Like I, but that's because of technology. Like I can bring my daughter to gymnastics and bring my laptop along and crank out a couple more emails, finish a presentation. And to me, I'm like, I'm not a workaholic, like I'm leaning in to where I can and I'm fully here for my daughter.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah. Whereas in the 90s, they had they had to go to work to work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Yeah. Like I remember like my I would have basketball games in high school, and like my dad wouldn't be able to come because my game was at seven o'clock and he would still be at the office and working. And I used to be so frustrated about that. And now, as someone who is deep in my career and wanting to achieve all the things, I get it. And that's a really big benefit to, you know, post-COVID is that there is this like new balance and there is this ability to be more flexible and and fungible with where and how we work. But yeah, I think the definition is different. Now, do I work more than an average person? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

Totally. So I would say, I mean, I can I can never say what somebody's type is because really it's up to you and how you feel about it. I would say that you have a lot of traits of a three. Your two is also very high. So that could likely be, you know, your wing. Um, your nine, looking at your chart, your nine, like I said, was also higher. And so that could indicate a connection to nine, which I said the three goes to nine when they're stressed, as well as your six being higher. Um, the other types that were higher that, you know, I was kind of like trying to get you to answer questions related to them were one and seven. Okay. And the one is more likely to be more like perfectionistic. They're focused on doing the right thing. Um, they have the biggest difference between a one and a three is ones like won't be done with something until it's absolutely perfect. Whereas threes need it to be done so that they can move on to the next task.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

Very much a three in that. Like a one I can handle it. I can handle something not being perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

A lot of um people who have been diagnosed with ADHD relate to some of the qualities of the seven just because they are seeking contentment, seeking like the thing that's going to give them that rush or that excitement. Um, the endorphins. They are like have a hard sevens in general, have a hard time with like follow through. Like they're great at generating ideas, but the follow through can be challenging. And that's just because. You know, they might get distracted. So if you think about somebody who has ADHD, like they can also relate to some of the qualities of the seven without them being a seven.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Okay. Can I ask you a question about you have said this a couple of times, and I just want to make sure I understand is I'm a thr let's say I'm a three, right? Because I am resonating with a lot you're saying about the three. But then on you said, like at their worst, I think you said they show up as the nine. At their best, they show up as a six. Can you talk a little bit about the like I the where I'm getting confused is we talked about like you are what you are, and then you have your wings, but then does every number have like kind of a shadow side and like a bright side?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Yeah. And that's why if you look at the symbol of the Enneagram, there are lines, and those lines are going to connect you to other types. So the three, when they're stressed, they'll go to the unhealthy side of the nine. And when they're in growth, they'll go to the healthy side of the six. So as a two, I when I'm stressed, I go to the unhealthy side of the eight. And when I'm in growth or when I'm healthier, I go to the high side of the four. So every type has uh two numbers that they go to as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Um, okay. Anything else I should know about my Enneagram and or advice of what I should be doing with this in my career, in this business, as a mom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Well, we've talked a lot about like some of the like pitfalls of the three, right? And so like some of the things that they struggle with the most are like those work uh life boundaries, right? Um, they also might struggle with like identity of like who am I when I'm not doing or like achieving. Um they also might struggle with like other people's expectations of them or you know, like who um they need me to be. So just some things to look out for as well as um they can be a little bit self-focused at times when they're not the best version of themselves because they're focused on like their goals and their achievements and getting ahead. And so just understanding like when that comes up or when you're feeling overly competitive or you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

What about how do I balance being a three, for example, with being ambitious, but also wanting to be a very present, like active mom?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:29

So it's awareness, right? It's like the awareness, like you know these things. And so um, you know, you don't have to like lose those pieces of you. It's just making them all fit together. I actually get a lot of people sometimes too who are stay-at-home moms and they'll be like, I'm a three, like, how does this make sense? I'm a three and I'm a stay-at-home mom. I'm like, well, what type of stay-at-home mom are you? You know, like, are you needing to uh be at all of the PTO meetings? Are you like making sure that they have the best projects? Are you, you know, like what does that look like for you? Um and you know, you can still be a three and not be be in corporate. Like that's the big misconception.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

Is there is there a uh personality trait of like how a three shows up as a parent?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:20

They definitely tend to have high expectations for their kids, you know, and um, you know, wanting them to do all the activities and like do all of the things because like they know they themselves know that they're capable of doing all the things. So that's something to look out for sometimes, or you know, like wanting their kids to be the best at the things that they're doing when, you know, that's sometimes a difficult um expectation to place on them. Yeah. But other than that, like they are great, they're big cheerleaders for their kids, right? They're like great at um encouraging other people and making sure that they have what they need and that they are uh, you know, doing things that are fun and competitive and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Yeah. Okay. This is so interesting. I'm like dying to go and just do all of the research on the three and the two, and then all of them so I can understand more. Like, I'm gonna try and type my husband and maybe my mom and my sister. Um, okay, so someone listening to this is like, wow, this is so interesting. I feel like I'm aligning with a lot of what Sadie said or some of the questions that Ashton was asking. And they're like, I want to really get into this. What is step one? Like, I'm listening to the podcast right now, and I'm like, it's time. It's time for me to explore the Enneagram. What do I do?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

So obviously, I'm gonna say that I do this with people all the time. I help them figure out their type. So check out my website. I do these uh discover your Enneagram type calls where you exactly what we did here with Sadie. She took a test, sent me the results, and then I'm going to help you figure out what your type actually is, as well as all of those other pieces of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Amazing. What's your website? Enneagramashton.com. Amazing. And people can find you on Instagram at Enneagram Ashton. Yep. Um on the website, do you have a link to the test that you prefer?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

So I have my own self-assessment, so which gives you like questions to ask yourself to figure out your type. And then in my Instagram bio, I do typically have the uh Enneagram test that I prefer. It's truity.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

Okay. And so to be clear, if someone wants to work with you or partner with you, you do everything from well, one, you've got free resource resources on your website. Um, but you do everything from a one-on-one call to really dig into what your Enneagram type is and learn more about yourself. But you do corporate events, you do speaking events, you can you can bring a group together and do an Enneagram. Have you ever done like an Enneagram girls' night? Yeah, I've done some book clubs.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:02

Fun though. Yeah. Enneagram. Um somebody hired me for like a birthday party where they like all did it together. Yeah, I've literally done so many different events.

unknown 1:12:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

That it's always fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Yeah. So if you have any interest of whether it's just for themselves or they lead a team or they have a business and this is something that could be really good team building, can you just plug really quick if someone has a small business or a team, or maybe is a leader at a corporate office and they're like, oh, we were going to do Myers Briggs, but now we're going to do maybe we do do an Enneagram. Will you plug really quick for the audience of why would the Enneagram be a good option?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:41

The Enneagram is the best option for in the workplace, because, like I said before, it's about your motivations. And so you can understand people's behaviors, but if you're just looking at the behaviors, you have no idea why they're doing that thing. And when you can start to understand why they're doing that behavior, like why they're missing deadlines or why they prefer to work independently than in a team, then you can start to have a better understanding. You can increase your communication because you know how to actually communicate with them. You can have less conflict because there's less misunderstanding. It's just such a better resource for when you're trying to understand each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

This is so amazing. Okay. What I'm walking away from this is everyone needs to continue to learn and grow about themselves. Start with the Enneagram, figure yourself out, learn about other people. Um, this is a great tool for team building, but do not take it at surface level. Don't just take a random quiz and say, I'm a three, go on with my life, but understand like what is a three? How much do I resonate? What are the other what are the other Enneagram numbers? What do I resonate with them? Do I feel like my test results were accurate? And then consistently checking in with yourself. Like, what is that shadow side? What is that bright side? And when you're leaning in either uh one way or another. Yeah. Amazing. Oh my gosh, Ashen, this was so much fun. You are so amazing. This was Oh, thank you. It was great to be here. A little bit therapeutic. Um but I will make sure we tag you on the show notes and you guys will see some clips of our conversation on Instagram and TikTok. But Ashen, thank you so much. And um, we'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Okay, that's it. Thanks for joining this episode of Who Let Me Do This? Go drink some water, set a boundary, and don't forget, you're doing amazing, sweetie, even if you're spiraling. And hey, if this episode made you laugh or feel seen, send it to a friend, hit follow, or leave a review. You know, do all the things. See you next time.