Mindful Ministry | S2E8

This week on Deeper at Life, we continue in 1 Corinthians 14:13–25 and explore what it really looks like to use our spiritual gifts in a way that builds others up.

In a passage that can feel complex at first, Paul brings us back to something simple but powerful: our gifts aren’t about drawing attention to ourselves, they’re about making Christ known and strengthening the church. In this episode, we dive into what it means to practice mindful ministry, using our words, our gifts, and our lives with intentionality, clarity, and love.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

All right, welcome back to Deeper in Life. My name is Dominic. I'm joined today by Pastor Andrew and Pastor Matt. And we're going to be on the pulpit. We're going to be on the beyond the message. And I'm excited. We're in our verse-by-verse study in 1 Corinthians. Um, we're in chapter 14, verses 13 to 25. So a continuation on chapter 14, talking about um being mindful. And you titled it mindful ministry. And I love your big idea. I'm just gonna throw it. I'm gonna throw that first and then we can we can dive in. But your big idea was maximum impact in the church with my spiritual gift demands an engagement of the mind.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Amen. Let's just wrap it up. Let's go home. Good.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Well said. Well said. Yeah, I think um I in this podcast I try not to like re-preach the sermon. So I don't I don't want to do that. But there's so many things on the pages of this text um that just can be teased out a little even more. And and so I just think the starting point has to be um we've we gotta understand what maximum impact is. Maximum impact is um the full fruitfulness of the gift that God intended for it, uh gave me and intended for it to produce. So why did God give us spiritual gifts? God gave us spiritual gifts for the good of the butt of the body, for the building up of the body. That's used over and over and over again. Um He says it so many times. It's basically I preached the same sermon, just in it from a different perspective, multiple times now, because it's all about listen, just build one another up. So if maximum impact is the building up of my brother with my spiritual gift when we come together as a church, that cannot be separated from intelligence. It has to engage the mind. There has to be an understanding of what is being said and what is being done. And so um the the the main point Paul's making once again is serve serve the church for the purpose of building it up, not exalting the self. We've said that. And he's using the the example of the difference between prophecy and tongues. Prophecy's better, so he's kind of leaning into that again. Prophecy is better because prophecy is understandable, and that which is understandable is able to produce fruitfulness and helpfulness and building up, and people are able to hear it, receive it, amen it, and then apply it. Where unintelligible tongues was not that valuable. So I think what was happening, I don't know, uh we don't know a lot what was going on. Maybe it's it's the book of Corinthians is like listening to a one-sided phone call. So you're listening to the Paul talk to them, but you're not there where they are hearing what's actually happening. You just are like, I'm put filling in the gaps based upon this side of the phone conversation that I'm hearing. And so what we're what we're assuming is pretty safely, the Corinthians were highly valuing the gift of tongues. Probably because they were the recipients of the apostolic ministry. They observed tongues, the miraculous, spirit-empowered, missional gift of tongues, and they said, We want that. Oh, wait, all these gifts are available. Okay, we'll take that one. That's the cool one. Everybody's amazed at that one. They they may have heard stories of Pentecost, they may have heard other stories of the spirit descending and tongues being spoken as a confirmation. They're like, Yeah, we want that one. So he's saying, Listen, no, wait, you're you're misunderstanding. Tongues is not this thing that you use because you want it for the elevation of your ego. Gifts in general are meant for a purpose. The maximum impact of those gifts should be intelligent, intelligible, so people can understand it. And that's what happens in churches that have misunderstood this. So I would argue that the modern day Pentecostal charismatic movement has just done the same thing. And what they have done is they have taken um the manifestation of the spirit through the gift of tongues, as is described in the book of Acts, and have made that the standard by which we judge people's uh salvation testimony. So there were people in the new in the book of Acts who, once they got saved, the Spirit of God fell on them and they spoke in tongues. So the Pentecostal Charismatic uh movement has taken that as prescriptive, meaning that that's what should happen every time. And that's not what should happen every time. Paul makes that clear. That is something that happened at that time on the front lines of missionary work to confirm to skeptics and unbelievers that this was actually a legitimate conversion. So um, what that what happened, even if you look at the the history of the modern-day charismatic Pentecostal movement, it happened in um, it began. The really kind of if you look at it, I'm sure there's some details I'll leave out. But if you just kind of scrape it down to its basic uh bullet points, Topeka, Kansas, a guy by the name of Parham, I could confirm that here in a second, but he was uh at a Bible college, Bethel Bible College, and encouraged his students to study the book of Acts and understand what the gifting was. Um, and uh a lady by the name of Agnes um reportedly began speaking in tongues because she saw that tongues was a sign of spirit baptism. And so they believed that this event restored the apostolic gift, is what they say. So take a jump ahead into about 1906, 1909, there was a church in uh Los Angeles of all places called the Azusa Street Revival, or this revival took place, where the leader William Seymour, who was a holiness preacher, uh began preaching about the baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues as the evidence, and they heard about Agnes' story. And so what followed this preaching, you can actually go to 312 Azusa Street, where this took place in 19, I think it's 1906. Um, I may be wrong, but I think it was that. And what happened was they had now all of a sudden an outburst of ecstatic worship, speaking in tongues that they didn't even know what was going on, no interpreters. There were claims of healings and miracles. There was a bunch of gatherings, interracial gatherings were taking place. So there was race tensions were being kind of uh uh done away with, and there was this thing happening. And then that began the spread of what would be known as um the classical Pentecostalism. And then, I mean, there's a bunch of history there. You could get into second wave movement and third wave movement. All of that is to say, uh, based upon an experience of a lady in Topeka, Kansas, they revived the apostolic thing that what was going on in Acts should be regular. It should be the norm. Baptism of the Holy Spirit should come, a second wave of the Holy Spirit should come, and you should be able to speak in this angelic, ecstatic language. Now, the problem with all of that is there's not a lot of Bible that's connected to that. Acts is descriptive in describing for us here's what took place, but Paul gives us clarity in 1 Corinthians 14, even his point of like you're you're so immature, you're wanting a thing that was a sign of judgment. The message of tongues was actually a call to repentance. It was a sign that, hey, repent, judgment's coming, which is the message of the gospel. And you're thinking that that's the sign of maturity. No, that's that's not a great thing. And so, and and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the second wave and the third wave and all of that became just a distortion of Paul's intent in 1 Corinthians 14. So that's a little bit of a rabbit trail from I don't even know if there was a question involved in that. I'm trying to actually sit here and think, did he ask a question or just make a comment? But I think that is important for us to understand because uh the church in the in the 1900s has not necessarily overcome the temptation that was in the first century Corinthian church, where we want that experience. We want people to see us, we want people to be amazed by this ecstatic language, and none of it's anchored in scripture, none of it's the true purpose of the gifting of tongues. And I don't even know that I have the answer to say, what do you say to somebody who says that was a real experience for me? We can talk about that because that's been asked of me throughout the last week or two. Um, all I can say is here's what scripture teaches, here's what we believe scripture teaches, and I think it's pretty clear. So we've got to anchor our practices as a church in those things.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So I mean, in your main point about engagement of the mind, there's there's almost like a passive teaching that's happening at the same time where you have to engage your mind to understand this entire chapter in context. Yeah. But our tendency still is to get so myopic and zero in on the thing and go, but it but the gift still seems to be apparent. So let's just let's all speak in tongues.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

You know?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

So the charismatic Pentecostal movement would say that the purpose behind tongues regularly for them is salvation. Like that's how they would, because I'm trying to understand like their purpose. Like why do it, right? If it's not building up, it's not edifying, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Clearly, what the text says, they they yeah, I'm not I'm not Pentecostal charismatic, so I'm not gonna try to speak to this because somebody listen here is gonna say, Oh, you blew that explanation. But my understanding is that the evidences of the coming of the spirit on someone's life at salvation is that they will speak in tongues. So you think let's go, let's think Cornelius, Acts chapter 10. Macedonian call, Peter goes to Cornelius and his house gets saved, and he preaches the message. They believe, they get saved, and it says the spirit fell upon them and they began speaking in tongues. So that would be to them, that would be an expected universal experience. You get saved by believing the gospel, and in your so nobody would say uh you're saved by speaking in tongues, but they would say if you don't speak in tongues, we're gonna question whether or not you're truly saved. Because if the spirit of God did come upon you, then the evidence of that would be speaking in tongues. Um, and that is um taking a clear story that was for the purpose of being assigned to skeptical believers in Jerusalem. Because remember in Acts chapter 11, they go back there and they say, Hey, this guy, this Gentile guy named Cornelius got saved. And the Jewish, I think Jewish Christians, but were like, no, that can't be. Can't be. And he said, Well, here's what happened. I preached, they believed, spirit fell, they spoke in tongues, and the Jewish believers were like, How can we deny this? It was so evidential. So what was it? It was a sign for skeptical and unbelieving, primarily Jews, but I would say more than that, um, that this was what was the confirmation that the spirit was moving amongst the Gentiles. So what they would say is that that's that's that's prescriptive, meaning that everybody who now gets saved from that point on would have that experience. But that's just not true. Not only is that not true because the Bible never says that, for thousands of years, that wasn't true. That really started to fade away in the 70s and 80s uh AD. So, like Death of the Apostles, this practice began to, I think it still existed on the fringes. There's there's some evidences that it did. That's why I'm not a full like, hey, this is never gonna happen again. But it really started fading away from mainstream Christian experiences, and then it revived in Topeka, Kansas, and especially with the Asusa Street revivals in 1906, 1910, somewhere in there. And then the Pentecostal Charismatic movement began, saying, Well, that that we've been missing that. So whether then the spirit wasn't active between, let's just say, 75 AD and 1906, or people weren't getting saved, or something, something's unique here, you know. And and I think good biblical students would come to the conclusion that there's an issue we've got.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Well, the interesting thing about taking that that story of Cornelius and relating it straight to this text is like it's for unbelievers. So that's a pure like a pure example of what Paul is saying here of that. But if you just take that story out and then don't yeah, you talked about other scriptures too. You said it's scripturally like it, it just is very clear. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah, Acts chapter two. I mean, that's the first instance of tongue uh of the gift of languages. It was clearly a gift of languages because the people from different countries or different regions were coming and these Galileans were speaking in their native language. The word native tongue or native language is used there, right? So, so they had this gift and they were like, What's happening? Those guys are speaking our language and we understand them, but they don't. And it by the way, remember, in that day, being bilingual wasn't a thing. It was very rare for people to be bilingual. They knew their language from their region, from their country. And so that's the whole point of this was they didn't have Rosetta Stone or Google Translate. It wasn't any of that. It was miraculous, verifiable miracle of a language that somebody else understood that they didn't previously learn. And so what happened? Well, those people, though those people uh were amazed and astonished because it was a verifiable miracle. But then what happened also was the rest of the Jewish nation or the Jewish people who were gathered there at Pentecost, which was a gathering. So think, I think the best modern day example of this we have is the uh the holy trip to the um to the holy land, to the uh to Mecca for Muslims. They all want to make a uh a trip to Mecca at one point in their life. It's one of the one of the main pillars of Islam, is make true make an attempt to make a trip to Mecca. And everybody gathers there and they all circle, you know, the the big cube. And it's it's that that's kind of what's happening here. People are gathering on Pentecost to Jerusalem. And so all the Jewish people are gathered. They were just pretty proud of the fact that they killed that false guy named Jesus, that false teacher. They were all pretty proud, like, yeah, we got rid of him. He's a he's a phony. And then Peter begins speaking in tongues, and all the Jewish people who there are like, what is going on here? And then, because of the affirmation that this was a verifiable miracle by people who spoke that language and were saying, This is what he's saying. We know what he's saying. The nation of Jews or the Jewish people who were gathered there sat and listened to Peter preach, and thousands of them got saved, and the church in Jerusalem was started. It was a sign. This is legit. Don't, don't not listen to this guy. This is important. And Jews demand a sign. And then Acts chapter 19, uh, Paul goes to Ephesus. I think there were 12 uh men there. I'm gonna, I didn't read the account again. I did so read it again, Acts chapter 19. But there's uh, I think there were 12 men there that they were questioning about whether they genuinely believed, and then they laid hands on them, they baptized them. So they would they had identified with the message of John the Baptist, an old testament message of repentance, the king is coming, Messiah's coming. Now Christ had come, had ascended, the spirit had come, and now they needed to identify with Jesus Christ. So it was kind of this transitional period. So they baptized them in the name of Jesus, they laid hands on them, they received the spirit and they spoke in tongues. It was a sign, an affirmation that these men had truly trusted in Christ, not just the message of John the Baptist. So they're again, that's transitional. That's not prescriptive. And the Spirit of God descended, the the they spoke in tongues, and it was a sign that this was legitimate. So there's that. So then the argument goes, okay, well, if that's the purpose of the sign gift of tongues, what is the what is the modern day manifestation of that? Is that real? And again, I my job here is not to say, to pick out and say, that's fake, that's fake, that's fake. I I don't believe it's real. Um, you even look at the the the Pentecostal charismatic movement will actually give you instruction on how to learn to speak in tongues. Say this phrase over and over again and then let your spirit be free and it'll you'll just start talking in tongues. And to me, that right there is just bizarre. Like if this is truly a miraculous manifestation of the spirit that's verifiable, why are we making pamphlets to help you understand how to say this phrase over and over again? That's that to me. And then this idea that, well, this is a prayer language, and I got some some major problems with that, right? Because there is no evidence in the Bible that there's even an angelic language. The only reference to it would be 1 Corinthians 13 when he says, if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels. Now, let me give an explanation of that. I think that's very that's that's helpful, is that whenever we have an account of an angel speaking in the new in the Bible, what language is the angel speaking?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Their language, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

The language of the person to whom he's talking. So Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek. So what that tells us is that the angels spoke every language. Because the angels don't have the angels, don't even have a body, they don't have eardrums and mouths, they are a spirit. So it's not like they have a physical body that has that. So when God empowers an angelic messenger to speak a language, it speaks every language. So I think Paul's point there is to say if I spoke the uh all languages, the languages of the angels, meaning that if I spoke every language there is on earth, and we know he's speaking hyperbole, because the next couple verses he says that if I had all knowledge and all wisdom and I had all faith to remove mountains, he's using the all superlative hyperbole. So, so to anchor this theology of, well, there is an angelic language based on that, it is such uh immature, because Paul uses that word, an immature exegetical approach to the passage to say this is a prayer language, we never see evidences of that throughout scripture. We've never seen that tongues was ever referenced as that kind of an ecstatic angelic language. So that's another vein that we could run down pretty hard to try to figure out what that means. But just a simple, I think, approach to this is to say, when has speaking in tongues ever been the thing that should be present in the church? And that's what we have made it in in certain movements, is that we need to make it a present in the church. And Paul's like, no, no, no, no. I'm glad I speak more than all of you, but I'm glad that it's present in my life because I'm outside the church most of the time. Most of the time, Paul spent his life outside the church, mission field stuff, islands floating in the Mediterranean, shipwrecks, and then leading people to Christ and confirming the gospel. But in the church, when I'm back with y'all, man, I'm glad I don't, I don't, I'm not, I have no desire to speak in an unknown language. I'd rather speak five words in a known language than 10,000 in an unknown language, because that is the most helpful for you. So if spiritual gifts, if church building up spiritual gifts are what we're after, and we are, then we need to do the thing that builds each other up in the church. And tongues is not one of those things that does. Outside the church, on the, again, on the forefronts of the mission work, on the on the edges of missions, could it be present? I think it can be. I think it can be. Um, and I have stories to help us under help us come to that conclusion. But I think the point Paul's making is be careful here. Don't be immature here.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Are there other examples you can think of where something gets so zeroed in on that we go, okay, this this now needs to become prescriptive when God in moments throughout scripture, cover to cover, yeah, did things in moments, not to say this is the way I always solve this particular problem or move in this particular way. Yeah, but in this moment, this is how I'm using this.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, I mean, let's just take even in Acts, transitional period. This things were happening, the New Testament was beginning, and there was an incredible revival taking place in the church, and everybody was selling everything they had, and they were donating it to the church to distribute to the poor. And there was a married couple, Ananias and Sapphira, who went out, sold a piece of land, came to the church revival service where everybody was giving everything, and they told Peter, here's everything from the cell of our land. And it wasn't everything because they had kept some back. And the Spirit of God let Peter understand gift of discernment, spiritual gift, gift of discernment. Spirit Peter at that point says, It was in your you owned this. You weren't obligated to give this, but now you come telling us that you gave it all, but you didn't give it all, you kept some of it back, and that's a lie. And they died like one at a time. One came in and did it, the other one came in after them, not knowing what had happened and did it. And Ananias and Sapphira both were struck dead because of their hypocrisy. And another example of this, they're Doing something that would have been something beneficial for the church, but doing it for the purpose of self-exaltation. And the Spirit of God, in order to purify, keep the church right in the transitional moment, says, You're dead. And they died. And they took their bodies out. I mean, church revival service, somebody dropped dead. Talk about getting the attention of the church, right? Somebody dropped dead and the and the ushers are just like, well, let's pick this guy up and go out. Then his wife comes in and they do the same thing. It's like, you know, so uh clearly not a every time this happens, if this happened every time, we'd be taking people out of church dead every Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I'd be brought, I'm I'm done, right? I'm sure there's plenty of times that I've done something hypocrite, hypocritical that that was at least a resemblance of that, right? So I just want to make sure that like we understand that's not prescriptive. That's not a prescription of what should happen every time. That is a description of what happened at that time in order to bring in the New Testament church and start it right. And even if you go back in in some Old Testament instances, there's things that God did that were extreme to emphasize the importance of a new age, a new, a new working, a new people or whatever. You know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

What um I've heard I've heard about like praying in tongues like like solo, like praying to God in tongues. Like where did where do people pull that out of? That's from here.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

So I think what they're doing is they're taking so so build their theology. First Corinthians, first Corinthians 13 says angels, tongues of angels. So their mind says, oh, there must be an angelic language. Paul says, hypothetically, in 1 Corinthians 14, if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit may be giving thanks, but my mind is unfruitful. Again, it's not an imperative. Um, there's a guy I love listening to. He's a pastor in a Compass Bible church in California. And man, he did such a good job explaining this that this is indicative. This is an indicative, not an imperative. He's indicating uh uh a truth, he's giving a hypothetical situation of if I were to pray in tongues, what benefit is that to you or me? Because my mind doesn't know what I'm saying. So there's there's not an in a theology to be based upon that. He's using that as a point to make. You're pursuing tongues and it's not even benefiting you, it's not benefiting the believers, and it's not benefiting the unbelievers. And it's just a sign of immaturity. But because he makes that statement, if I pray and sing in an unknown tongue, that's what that's what else is uh uh interesting. Like they they latch on to pray because that is that is an unverifiable thing. Well, I pray in tongues in my in my prayer closet. And the reason why that's a big deal is because I can't I can't go in there and be like knock on your closet door and be like, hey, that's wrong. It's unverifiable. It's an experience. And I I don't believe it is. Now, there are smart men who have some different conclusions on that. Um, I just think in in when when the when the when the sense of the text seems to make pretty clear sense, why am I gonna try to seek this other idea and cause confusion? And I just don't think that's his point. I think his point is pray with, I will pray with my mind and my spirit. So I'm gonna both pray with the experience of the emotional element of my spirit being moved as well as my mind being engaged, not my mind being turned off. Because listen, that was the problem with Eastern mysticism, right? Eastern meditation was meditate to the emptying of your mind. Biblical meditation is meditate with the filling of your mind with truth. Christian meditation is not the emptying of your mind to just have an experience. Biblical meditation, biblical Christianity is meditate to fill your mind, meditate on truth. Well, how am I gonna meditate on truth if my mind is checked out because I'm speaking in a language that is an angelic language? There's just so many other elements that speak to this that I just don't think we can get anywhere that so so a huge chunk of this is based on Romans, where he talks about um the creation groaning. Creation is groaning for the return of Christ. There's a groan. Now, listen, I can't put my ear up to a tree and hear it speak some language. It's a groan, it's just an ache. You just feel it. There's scars and there's ache, and the earth is like, please come back. These people are ruining us, right? There's a groaning. And the spirit of God, that same word in the text in Romans, um, what is it, Romans 8? Where uh he says, the spirit makes intercession for us with the same word, just a couple verses later, with groanings, when we have groanings too too deep for words. So, so is the word groanings there a reference to language? Well, no, because the trees do it. Same word. The earth does it. So groanings is not a language, groanings is this ache that I can't even put words to. I've been there, I've knelt at my couch, I have wept and I have prayed and I opened my mouth to pray, and I don't have words to say. God, I don't even I and I'll say, God, I don't even know what to say right now. So I'm just gonna sit here and I'm gonna weep in your presence. And he says, when that happens, the Spirit of God makes intercession between my spirit and his. That that is not a theology to uh not a verse to base the theology of prayer tongues on. And so you take that verse and you take 1 Corinthians 14 and you take them and piecemeal them together, and you come up with this idea. Well, tongues is a private prayer language.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, and I think I think sometimes that's the most powerful prayer you can pray. I don't have words, yeah. I can't even search the depths of my own heart, but I thank you for the truth that you are interceding on my behalf. Yes, hallelujah. Something I'm sympathetic to, and I don't know if you've had this experience, there is this thing still in the air as you fall more in love with Jesus and you grow closer to him and your relationship and understanding his word. If there's something like the gift of tongues that that I'm missing or or don't have access to, Lord, I don't I don't want to miss out on anything you have for me. I even remember, I think it was John Piper that wrestled with this. And I was shocked to hear him say it out loud that he prayed for this gift and and inaudibly felt like he heard the Lord saying, Why aren't you content with the gifts that I've given you? Yeah, I've called you to preach. Yeah, which is a clarifying moment for him.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

And I listen, I'm I'm there in everything that I've come to on some of these things, especially when the when Christendom disagrees, I'm happy to be wrong. I want to be, I want to be able to wrestle with this to say, hey, I I think I missed that. Spirit of God, manifest your presence. Let's go. I want to see that. If that, if this is a thing, let's let's do that. Um, and and I think that that's real. And I think what what and I I've asked that, Lord, if I'm missing something, make it clear and then manifest your presence. I'm gonna I'm going to Nepal in April. I'm gonna on my way, I'm gonna be like, Lord, if you if you want me to give it a give it now. Because I'm gonna be talking to people. I can't speak their language. Let's go. Expect it if he wants to.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Um, but I think too, this forbid not the speaking of tongues that he says. That's one free phrase John Piper really grabs onto. And I like that. I love that. But I think if you understand the right application of tongues, don't forbid people from doing it, which is missional work. Like I wish more of you would speak tongues. What was he saying? I wish more of you would come with me on the forefronts of the mission field. Tell the lost people of the nations the message of the gospel through the manifestation of the spirit, so that more of the tongues of the nations will become worshipers of God. Yeah. Let's go. I just uh personally, this is where I've come to. And I think we as a church practicing this is where we've come to. Are we afraid of the gift of tongues? No. We're afraid of the abuse of it and the selfish uh ambition for it, but we would love to see it in the manifestation of the spirit as people are coming to Christ and all along praying, hey, God, where there's a gap where I'm misunderstanding something, uh, I understand my finiteness. Give me clarity, help me understand it.

unknown 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

All right. Um, there's definitely spots where we can go deeper on things that you covered on Sunday, but maybe we we have more time. But also just kind of want to go back to last night. Uh, we were in a small group, and the first question was like, where are you convicted from this passage of maybe with your spiritual gift and and you not engaging your mind? And that was a sobering question for sure. Um, I think we had different answers. There were people that they answered that they weren't serving. Um, there were people that answered like missionally, am I am I sharing the gospel to to my friends, even family members? So um I think that was cool because I'm bringing that up because that's like the point of it 14. Yeah, even back to 13. Yeah, like this is the point. And and one thing we all agreed on that was super cool is just like it's just clear. It's just like super clear. We've you've you've taken this text, brought it down to the level where of understanding of like, wow, like I'm like reading this text as you're preaching, like, this is crazy text. And just like, but there it is. But that's exactly what we're supposed to do. So if we if we tear all this stuff away, the the debates, the all the things, is like this is the point of what we are supposed to get as a church.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah, so I think I think the cool thing on this is um you miss sometimes. You miss what did they say? You miss the forest because of the trees, right? You you get down into the trees and you missed how beautiful and really the purpose of the forest is. And and even you start studying the ants that live under the canopy of the trees. When really what I think sometimes we need to do is we need to pull back and say, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's get up here and let's appreciate the fact this is beautiful, this is amazing. And we're down here arguing whether or not this ant is this ant or that ant. And and uh I think that's that's what we're getting at is what what what is the point Paul's making? Well, Paul's point, guys, is that like, listen, use your gift, number one, use your gift, swing the bat. We we talked about that a couple weeks ago. You got a bat in your hand, swing it, use your gift for the good of your brother and the reaching of the lost, and do that which clear is making that as clear as possible. So let's just then take that idea and plug it in, right? If so, I love he mentioned singing. What a cool thing. So, so clearly singing was one of the representations he wanted to apply this to, right? So that's why we want to make sure that we're singing songs that are clear theologically, that are clear musically, that are uh balanced in the system, where the words are on the screen. That's an argument for words on screen, because we want to be able to see the words and affirm that's what we're saying. Yes. Like you remember listening, I don't know if you remember back in the day before Apple Music would throw the lyrics up. There was you'd listen to a CD and you'd open the inside pamphlet to read, or you'd go to lyrics.com. I don't know if you ever went there, but read the lyrics, and he would go and try to figure out what they're saying because you're like, I I used so many songs I would sing wrong. I'm like so many. Oh my goodness. I'm oh my goodness, that's almost offensive. What I thought he was saying, and all he was saying was something like this, right? That's that's why we want to be clear in our singing so that theologically we're thinking. That's what I appreciate about what you do, Matt, is we wrestle. Like there's oftentimes we're like, I can't get there yet. I think there might need to be some clarification given to that theological point that's being made, but we want to make sure that the word, the vocalists are out front. That's why Dylan and Kevin and Tommy and all the rest of the team is so important to make sure the vocalists are out front and the the we're not too interested in the drum solo. We're not a drum solo kind of church. We're a get the theology right kind of church so that when we sing, we're singing to one another truths that are attainable and intelligent so that we can say, Amen. I agree with that, and my heart is encouraged by that. So that's the one application. There's probably a thousand of those types of applications we can make there. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

That picture of zooming in and zooming out is so it's that's what that's the rhythm of our services every week. Enter in, gather wherever you're at, and then let's let's zero in. Think about his goodness, what he's done in your life. Think about the testimony of your life, your salvation, what he's done in the past, your kind of Ebenezer stone. Remember that because the church needs to hear it. And then let's zoom back out again and see how how beautiful and how big and how awesome he is, and describe to him the glory to his name.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

That's great. And that clear, being clear. So, so clarity uh and maximum impact. Uh, teaching. Look, I got up. I there's some things I could have don't dove further into. There's some words that guys can use that are nerd words, theologically, you know, fat heads, the theological fat head idea, right? Like what this is talking about is even even I was even hesitant to throw out the Hebrew, but that was so interesting because of the the the line upon line, precept upon precept, kovla kov, sav-sav, again and again, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's almost that idea, right? So that's that that to me isn't I don't know Hebrew, I don't speak Hebrew, but when somebody called that to my attention, that's what how you say that Hebrew phrase. I'm like, that enhances the point. Totally. That does not complicate the point. So if we're gonna be like, now the Hebrew word here is this, just to impress you with the fact that I may know a little Hebrew or I have a really good lexicon on my desk, that that doesn't help serve the church. Right. Teaching um or or or uh um being obscure in how we're applying the word of God, how we're encouraging one another, even even in arrogance in how we uh welcome one another and embrace one another. Um that's the whole point of the last part of that, of the evangelistic purpose of our gifting is like like the the gospel is strange enough. The gospel is offensive enough. Let's not be weird. Don't be weird, people, right? I've told the church, don't be weird. The gospel is is offensive enough. And that that's the point I think he's making is no, nobody's helped by this when you make this about you.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

And we can apply that, just take that principle, apply it to tongues and prophecy, yeah. Apply it to singing, apply it to teaching, apply it to preaching, apply it to prayer. It's like when the person gets up and prays and they do this like Bible King James Version talk. Oh, holy godeth, God aboveeth all thingeth. Thank you for giving us this day, thy power and thy glory and that. You're like, do you do you pray like that? Like, does God is God like, oh, that's my language, that's my boy. No. So no, the point of a prayer is I want to, I want to help people capture, uh, understand my heart for God and what I'm asking God to do amongst these people. And I want them to be able to say, Amen. So when I pray, if I'm at the front of the room praying with an individual, I'm not gonna pray some prayer that they don't aren't helped by. I want to pray a prayer that's clear and instructive and encouraging to them as I'm calling on God to do something in their life. Again, numerous applications of this principle.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

You said something and it was so fast that I don't, I don't know if it was in your notes or not. It was kind of an aside, uh leaning into another point. You said, when you forget who the gift is for, you become the main character in your show. And I was like, man, that's something to just sit with and think about for a second, because this is this is obviously what Paul was combating in this moment. Yeah. Where unity is the goal, the exaltation of Christ is the goal. And when we go, let's let's you know, make much of ourselves and be impressed with the gift, the person holding the gift, really. Um we're missing the point completely.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it was in my notes, but I do remember that that moment because we talk I referenced the idea of like handing out gifts on Christmas that don't have names on them. Yeah, yeah. And you forget, who's this gift for again? I don't know. Here, open, and then they like it, and then you get anarchy and problems all going in because everyone's like, oh my bad, that's not yours, that's his. And he's like, but I really want that. And you're like, I wasn't for you, you know? So I think that's that that on a different, greater, grander scale happens in our in our church when when I when I start actually thinking, and here, here I guess just scrape it. Here's the point. When I start thinking that my gift is for me, now I am what I said, I think the the main character of my show. I'm the star. And never, and I think we said this last week on the podcast, never do we see spiritual gifts associated with self-glorification, self-exaltation, or a self-uh-authenticating experience. We're never to be self-absorbed, self-authentic. Gifts were never meant to be uh a self-authenticating thing where it's like, oh, okay, I am real, because look what I just did. When I make preaching a sermon self-authenticating, that I'm dangerous. I'm I'm a mess. Because if I lay an egg, if I get up there and feel like I was confusing and didn't get my points right and started over my words, I get down and think, what am I doing? I might not even be saved. I might not even be a Christian anymore. Because I just that if God was, if the spirit dwell me and I feel like the gifting I have is preaching and that's what I just did, you know, it can't do that. It's never for that, it's for the good. And the crazy thing is sometimes those are the sermons that people are helped by the most because I've been humiliated to the point where I'm like, I just depend on the spirit to accomplish something through me that only he can. So I just think that we can't get to that point where I forget who the gift is for. My gifting is for the good of the church and the reaching of the lost. So the edification of the believer and the evangelization of the unbeliever. If we forget that, you know, we're gonna get mixed up.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

We also talked about like that being such a trick of the enemy because the actual win is not being exalted or elevated in any way or oh, I did this really good. It's serving someone with your gift and being a part of that. And the actual perspective of wow, God let me help someone with the gift that He gave me. Yeah, and I got to witness that is beyond.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

And along the way, words of encouragement are not hated. The words of encouragement are always appreciated. It's um it's doing it for the words of encouragement that's the problem. So I I love and appreciate every text I get and every message I get that says, hey, that was helpful. Thank you for doing that and great job today, and all of that sort of thing. Um, but I want to I want to be careful to deflect, obviously. And I don't want to do that just kind of, you know, gaslighting that or like uh acting like I'm deflecting, like, oh, you know, praise the Lord, you know, kind of thing. Like I I pray regularly. Help me deflect that back. And and here's the reality is that um those of us who serve in a public way, um I think that when we do it right, when we try to do it for the glory of God, the the the God doesn't necessarily need people in the church to be our humility servants. You know, I'm just trying to keep you humble, Pastor. Like I don't, I don't thank you, but there's an enemy who does a pretty good job of that that gets in my head regularly. Yeah. So now if if there's a real sense in which I get pretty impressed with myself, I think God has a really and he's shown us that over and over again. He has the ability to humble and and abase those who think that they are the glory of their thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

So I uh in a way it's a mark of a maturity how you answer that question. When if somebody says great great sermon today and you have uh a fake, well, not me, but God, kind of uh not really knowing how to deflect. I think you're um having joy in the study and being like you're poured into more than anybody who's being poured into in this room on Sunday morning. So there's there's a there's something in there that's super beneficial to your maturity and your spirituality. I'm I'm saying you, but this is this is true for me too. Because it'll like great worship this morning. Yeah. And there's a temptation to go, not me, but God. But I think there's something when people get to see that I love this. Yeah, I love what I get to be a part of, not because the music part is fun, but because my whole job every week is to go look at him again. He's better than you ever imagined. Yeah, you know, yeah, and that that is a glorious thing that I get to participate in.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

And I truly am thankful. I am thankful for the words of encouragement, you know, that I receive. I'm truly thankful that God gives me those those little points of of encouragement along the way, just to say, hey, that somebody was benefited by that. To what degree? That's up to the spirit working and his production. But I want to, I'm thankful for those texts and those messages that say, we appreciate you, we're thankful for you. And and and I think that those can become those every man is tempted to make those um motivations for arrogance and self-dependence. And we trust the spirit to keep us from that. And we don't do it for that purpose, we don't do it for that reason in any context, you know. Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

That's good. Um, I don't know if we wanted to talk a little bit more about Isaiah, the verse that Paul uses. I have Isaiah open. I don't know if you wanted me to read anything other than verse 11.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

That's interesting. I just throw a couple things out there. So verse 21. And listen, this is a tough, it's tough to he doesn't get abundantly clear on what he's dot connecting here. I think we got pretty close to it on Sunday. I think we got pretty close on what he was getting at, but in the law, it is written. So that's interesting. In the law, so in the Pentateuch, then he quotes Isaiah. So Isaiah, though, is a uh reference to the law, Deuteronomy 28. Okay, so it is in the law, but he quotes. Isaiah's quoting of what is in the law. So he could have said in Isaiah, it says this, but really what the the the foundation of Isaiah's claim in Isaiah 28 is Deuteronomy 28, where there is a covenant made that the Lord will bring a nation against you. This is verse 49, from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand. Isaiah takes that promise and says, Hey, that that that covenant, that fulfillment is going to happen to you, the northern kingdom, because you refuse to listen to the prophets. And and so if you think about it, I think read verse nine for me in Isaiah 28.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

To whom will he teach knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Quotation marks. Yeah, quotes starts the quote. So now it's the people of Israel speaking in mockery and defiance.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Go ahead. To whom will he teach knowledge and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the beast. Oh, from the breast, sorry. For it is a precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

So who are those who have just been weaned? Infants. So who's the message gonna go to? The infants, the ones who've just been weaned, the ones who just stopped nursing. And you're gonna go kavlika, kavlikaff, savosov, savasov, share, whatever the word is. So this is what you're gonna say. You're gonna blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you know, A's and B's and just the simple things. This is your message, you know, and almost as if we're above that. We don't need to listen to you. You are too elementary for us. Then he gives the promise of verse, hey, you you've you've because you've denied listening to the prophet, because you've rejected me, you're you're not even gonna under you, you think that's language that you don't need to listen to? You're not even gonna understand the language that's running through your streets because it's gonna be the language of a foreign invasion. And the sign that you're gonna see when you go out into the streets that you have been invaded and the judgment of God is now upon you is you're gonna hear foreign language. And that's the sign. So, what's the connection there? Well, his connection is not like again, don't I don't want to read too far into where Paul doesn't go, but I think he's just trying to say, listen, speaking in tongues was a sign of judgment. It's a warning sign. So the gift of tongues in the New Testament was an apostolic gift, primarily, initially, that was a message of repent. Christ died, judgment came, he took your place, but now you need to accept him and trust him, or else you're gonna be judged. Israel, you're gonna be judged too, unless you accept him. So tongues was meant to be a call missionally to repentance rather than this gift exercised in the church, right? So he's just using it as an illustration. Then in verse 22, he says, Therefore, thus, gifts as tongues are a sign, not to un not to believers, but to unbelievers. And so in the church, who gathers? Believers. So to believers, prophecy is more productive, not only to believers, though, but then in verse, verses the the next part of the passage in verses what 23, 24, and 25. It's like, but also to unbelievers, because they don't need to come in, they don't know what's being said. Now, if you're in the church, if you're on the on the forefronts of mission, on the front lines of missions, and that message needs to be preached to people who don't know your language, yeah, okay, great. Then that that's an application that we should use that for. But in the church, there's no benefit to the believer or the unbeliever if you're speaking in some self-exalting, self-authenticating, ecstatic language. And Isaiah 28 is an example of that.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

So good. Yeah. What was the gap you like year-wise, you think, between Deuteronomy and Isaiah? How many hintos?

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Um the the invasion happened in seven. I mean, you're gonna I that's a great question. Close, close to you can get it. It's a good long time.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yeah, that's a Deuteronomy's Pentecost. It's mind-blowing, just mind-blowing years. Yeah, years.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Deuteronomy's Deuteronomy's Pentateuch, so it's law, so it's you know, that's Mosaic covenant in in Deuteronomy 28. And um, the invasion of Assyria happened in 721-722 BC, and the message of Isaiah was not too far before that.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

So honestly, I probably shouldn't know that because I'm an old testament. Yeah, you're gonna win in seminary. Show us what it is.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Discovered this smart gang.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Um let me ask ChatGPT real quick.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

So no.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

So I guess to close us out, like let's make it practical for the person at life, right? And and where you know the kind of truth to life's like let's close it out. Before we get there, okay, yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

And I do want to land the plane here. I just think that church-wise, church wide, to understand a goal that we have, as is explained in verse 24 and 25, that the unbeliever comes and is welcomed. The unbeliever hears the truth of the gospel, the message of Jesus Christ from everybody, not just the guy preaching on stage, but everybody as we talk, we're discussing the gospel and we're asking questions about Christ and we're making much of Jesus, not in an unknown tongue, but in a known tongue. Our heart then is that they be convicted. So that is the the rebuke, the sense of not not a not an emotional discomfort, but a moral awareness. Like, I'm not right. Something's not right. I don't have what they have. They're all singing about this Jesus, and they're singing about the fact that he crushed the head of the serpent and he rose again, and they seem to like really love this. I don't have that. I something's missing, right? And are called to account. And then verse 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed. Like our heart is that God is working in our midst so much so that the people who are unbelievers are sitting there and they're thinking, these people know me. That guy said some things that he should not know about me. How does he know that? The Spirit of God begins to lean in them. The secrets of their heart are disclosed or revealed. Nothing is covered that will not be revealed, and they're aware of that. So I am lost, I am empty, I don't have hope. He's holy, he knows me. And then, verse 25, they fall on their face and worship God and declare that God is really among you. That is the goal. The goal is not that the Christians feel comfortable in their emotional experience. The goal is not, I don't like that song. I wish it was this song. I don't like that. I wish it was this. I don't like that. I like it, I wish it was that. That is so self-centered and so self-righteous in our approach to gathering. Should we, should we be here and be benefited from being here? Yes. But we should be benefited from the ministry of others to us, not the personal experience that we're after. And unbelievers should be able to come and hear the message, turn to Christ, and become worshipers of Christ. And that's the goal of the church is that from all tongues and tribes and nations, there would be people who delight in the Lord. That's the whole point of John Piper's book, Let the Nations Be Glad. Our job is to make worshipers out of people from all the ends of the earth. And we can do that right here in our building. So Easter's coming up. We want to invite as many unbelievers as we can to come to this service so that they can be convicted, exposed, and become worshipers of God through Jesus Christ. So I think reading 20, that was my favorite part of the text was 24 and 25, that this is what would happen. And think about it. When it's clear, revival takes place. Think Protestant Reformation. Protestant Reformation happened because the word of God got into the language of the people. And uh the point of uh William Tyndale was to make Bibles so that I think it was called the plowboy can understand what's being said. The guy working out in the field doesn't have to have an interpreter. He knows, he can read it and be like, I know it. And because of that, the Protestant Reformation happened and we are beneficiaries significantly of the revival of the Protestant Reformation because the message became clear. Let's get the message clear for this purpose, right? So yeah. You mentioned Truth to the Live. I didn't have time. I had a lot to cover on Sunday, but uh the ones I wrote down and we're gonna throw up there were these has God's word exposed my heart and led me to Christ? So I just talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

If you're if you're in in the church service or listening to this, and you've never had an experience where conviction, exposure of my heart, and I fall on my face and worship that that has and has led me to Christ. Um, that's what you need. You need the Spirit of God, the conviction of the Spirit, the clarity of the gospel to bring you to a place where you become a worshiper of God through Jesus Christ. So that would be one. And then number two is am I growing by engaging my mind with God's truth? So I think we turn our minds off too often in church. Um, and we want to not be that. We're not just here for this, man, that music was awesome. Did you hear that guy go off on that solo? Like, you know, no. We don't, again, I don't, I don't know how this manifests in different contexts at different times, at different places. But we need to engage our mind. So we want to turn our mind, lean our mind into the truth. Let's go deep and then let's take what's spoken and let's be Bereans and go study the scriptures to make sure these things are so. So engage the mind. And and and I think there's places where we are more prone to church mindlessness, and we can't be that way. And then lastly, is are my gifts helping others clearly see Christ? Believers and unbelievers. So if your gift is doing, if your gift is being utilized for the purpose of exalting yourself or some experience and not helping others see Christ, then we need to we need to get that get that right and repent of that and figure that out. So use your gift, just use it, figure out what it is, when it is. And I again, there's a lot of lot of conversations to be had about giftedness. I hope small groups are having a good time talking about these things. Um, but use your gift for the good of the church and the reaching of the lost for the glory of God. That's that's the point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

So good. Plug for Easter, man. Invite anyone and everybody, you never know what God can do within one invite for someone's eternity. So one cool thing, just to put a small plug here.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

When we started the journey through First Corinthians, um, we didn't plan it this way, but God so providentially said it, where in our consecutive exposition of First Corinthians, we are going to land on Easter Sunday on 1 Corinthians 15, in the first part of it, especially where Paul leans into the resurrection. Yeah. And so I already see God orchestrating the events to make Easter something special. So if you have unbelieving friends, bring them. The gospel is going to be presented. The message hopefully will be clear, and we pray that they will fall on their face and declare God's among you and get saved. So let's go. Let's go. Thank you, Father, for our time. Thank you for your word. Um help us to be people, leaders and church family that um does not abuse or misuse the giftings that you've given us in such a way that it is uh for our own personal experience or our own personal benefit. Help us to use the gift rightly. Help us to be students of the Bible, engaging our mind so that we can get these things right. Where we're wrong, um, where there's confusion, where there's lack of clarity, uh, bring it and help us, please. We want to, we just most of all want to honor you and uh do what you intend for us to do as a church. And so if there's anybody listening to this this message, maybe they're riding in a car or working out with headphones in or whatever. I pray that if they are an unbeliever, if they've never experienced the saving power of Jesus Christ, that you would save them, make them worshipers of you and uh show them, show them the glory of that and the wonder of that. Thank you so much for this opportunity we have. Pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Amen. Thanks for listening to the podcast. You can check out our latest sermon at life baptistchurch.com. We can't wait to see you this Sunday.