Order In The Church | S2E9

This week on Deeper at Life, we wrap up 1 Corinthians 14 by stepping into a topic that is both practical and important, order in the church.

Paul shows us that church gatherings aren’t meant to be chaotic or centered around individuals, but intentional, clear, and ultimately submitted to God’s authority. In this episode, we talk through what biblical order actually looks like, why it matters for the health of the church, and how submission to God’s Word shapes everything we do.

We also dive into the tension many people feel when it comes to authority, why it can be difficult, and how Scripture reframes it as something good, purposeful, and designed for our growth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

All right, welcome back deeper in life. My name's Dominic. I'm joining today by Pastor Andrew and Pastor Chuck. In for a good episode for sure. Order in the church. Dealing with two of the biggest controversial topics, things, things, I guess, right? In the text. Um so yeah, we should start there. I I like just starting there. I've been just throwing it to you. I don't know what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

I don't know either. Um, yeah, the text is a reminder of the commitment to uh consecutive exposition. Um, reminds us of why we do it. And uh in order to do it well and understand these texts well, we've got to see them in their context. Um, you've got to be able to see where they sit, where they lie, and what everything around it is saying. You can't pull a tree out of the forest and expect to get an understanding of the context that the tree grew in. You gotta see it in the forest that is it it is growing in and thriving in, and then you understand what makes it grow and what makes it apply to the lives of the church. And so a passage like this has tons of potential for misunderstanding and misapplication and coming to some some um some crazy things. And so, yeah, it's it's you know, it's helpful. The wrestle I have all week is to get it right. Once I get to the church on Sunday and I'm ready to go, I feel like it's just now articulating it so that it's clear rather than me trying to, I don't want to try to uh verbally process the text while I'm preaching. I I've got to get to an understanding of it, and I think we got there. Um, it's undeniably has some difficult parts that you kind of have to wrestle with and uh figure out, but yeah, it it's definitely dealing with a couple of the most controversial, most debated topics in all of Christianity. Um, you know, you add eschatology and the doctrine of election to this, and you have four of the probably most heated um topics of discussion and debate, but we're only dealing with two of those, and that is the role of tongues in the church and women's role in leadership in the church. And so, yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I'm I'm glad that you said that in the message because those are divisive topics, and they shouldn't be. Yeah, and I think a lot of them get misunderstood because they're not walking through the text with us. Like I even asked my small group on Monday, like, how many of you have actually walked through this text and had this understanding? Or it was just someone's opinion about this text or about those topics that they've heard, and they say, Oh, yeah, 100% just people's opinions. They've never walked through the text and got a full understanding. So I think a lot of the confusion comes because they're not walking through it.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

That's right. That's right. Got to see it in its context. And you know, that's my heart. And just so you know, listening, that when we uh unpack a passage in preaching, we're not only just trying to get application, we're also trying to form in uh the church healthy study habits that we're looking at a text, not pulling out just a proof text to prove a point that we want to make, but actually seeing it in its context. And and hopefully that influences the way you read your Bible and the way you study the Bible, that you're not just looking for, you know, I'm all for topical um uh verse gatherings. Like, give me all the verses on um on anger, give me all the verses on whatever, and you have a list of verses that cover a specific topic, and that's fine, so long as you understand those individual verses that you are memorizing and using in their context so that you get the full scope of what actually is being said with that that verse that you are holding on to. And excuse me, that's what we uh that's what we hope happens in our study of of these uh these texts. And they're difficult. And again, our commitment, uh, we don't have a right to decide what the word is or what the message is, or it's been given to us. I don't have a word, I don't have a word for you. God doesn't, there's nothing revolutionary that I'm gonna say, oh, God showed me something that you've never seen before. Anytime I start to say that, or any pastor starts to say that, you either need to do one of two things. You need to seriously question what's coming and run, or make sure that you have the Bible open and ready so that you can see whether these things are so. And if it's inconsistent with scripture, scripture wins. Scripture wins.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I remember early on coming here and and multiple times, whoever was preaching, if it was you, Andrew, or Chuck or Jason, people, you know, whoever was up there saying, don't just take my word for it. Like check, check the scripture. That's right. Um, what were what were the most difficult things to wrestle with as in this text? What did you have to get clear on?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Well, I I think the biggest thing is the women situation. Um you know, when you read it, when you read it straightforward, um, it it is pretty like just here's the thing women should keep silent in the churches. Now you read that, and if you take that and divorce that from its context, clearly you have the teaching. Um the women should keep silent in the church, not they're not permitted to speak, but should be in submission as the law says. And if there's anything that they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. So if we take that divorce from its context, we think, okay, women, no talkie, don't amen, don't sing, don't testify, don't share. Um, you're going to just ask your husband when you get home. Now it does say that, and that is a great principle because it's teaching submission. But in the context, I had to understand, okay, well, now either Paul is is um is contradicting himself because earlier in chapter 11, he told women that when they come together, that they should prophesy, so long as they were doing it with the mark of submission on their lives. So that was clearly a speaking gift. Tongues was even used here uh for women. So clearly that's a speaking gift. So clearly he intended for women to speak in the gatherings of the church or the small groups or the home churches or house churches that were going on. So either he is saying one thing in chapter 11 and something completely different in chapter 14, or there's a qualifier. There's something specific that he has in mind when it comes to their speaking. And the context then has to dictate that for us. And that is we, we, we, the best thing we can see is because remember, we're listening to a one-sided conversation here. So if you're if you're on if Paul's on the phone and we're sitting in, sitting in listening to Paul, we're not hearing necessarily, he doesn't tell us. So for all of you listeners, here's what's going on in Corinth. So I'm gonna say this. He doesn't tell us that. And God didn't intend for him to tell us that. So we have to then understand, okay, what is he dealing with that's happening in Corinth that prompts him to say what he says in the context? Well, the context was make sure you try and test and judge everything that is said because the messengers are fallible. They can mess it up. Make sure it's true. And that is uh a doctrine thing. That's a stand in judgment, which is a place of authority over the ministry that's taking place when you gather together. So when it comes to that specifically, which is being dealt with here, there's a pretty clear order of or chain of command. And that is when uh we men need to lead in this. It's not a women be quiet, women don't talk, women just ask questions at home. It's a when you stand in judgment over the thing that is said, when you stand and judge whether these things are true or not, that is a uniquely, um, we would say primarily a pastoral job, which is clearly something that God has limited to men, and that is a standing in judgment. And so I think there's that, but also then there's the clarifying of let her ask. So there seems to be pretty, pretty safe to say, uh, a sense in which Corinth, Corinthian women were verbalizing their disagreement with the authority and the conclusions that the authority were making uh over the judgment of the thing that was said. And so he's saying, Women, that's not your role in this. Your role is to not question the authority, it's not to speak up and disagree with the authority. Some even have said, as they commented on this verse, that it may even have in mind specifically women questioning their husbands' words, almost kind of like a public defiance of the authority. And so what really is being dealt with here is not women be quiet. What is being dealt with here is don't be in defiance of authority. Um, and and when you have a disagreement, let that be a private issue with you and your husband. Don't question the leadership, don't question out loud in a divisive way, but deal with that in a different, in a different mode and in a different way. And so there's a submission to authority. And listen, every person in the church is submitted to authority. Everybody has authority in their lives. Every pastor has the pastoral team that is their authority. Every man has the authority in his life, every woman has an authority in her life. It's just a chain of command. And what he's dealing with here is he even deals with it in the next verse when he talks about the Bible. This is God's word. So anybody who doesn't recognize that this is God's word is not living in submission, and they're not going to be recognized as spiritual. Why? Because they're not living in the submission to in submission to the authority in their life. So that the thing at hand here, I think, is more so than men versus women speaking versus not speaking. It's make sure that you're living in submission to the authority in your life. That's what I had to wrestle with.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

So no, and and I get the wrestle because also keeping it within the intention that this is in the church. This is God's created design for his church, to where he put pastors as the overseers and the authority of that. So now if you have, you know, women coming and usurping that authority, not only are you, you know, being defiant in that role, but also in God's created design for his church.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

That's right. It's always anchored in God's created design. So instead of thinking, well, that was a Corinthian issue, or to Timothy when he talks about women not pastoring, well, that's an effe an Ephesus issue. But then every time he says it, it's as if Paul anticipated that that resistance. And he's like, no, this is not something I'm anchoring in culture to deal with something specifically there. There are some things he's dealing with specifically there, but it's something anchored in creation and in the law, which would be the Pentateuch, which he's probably referencing Genesis three. He doesn't quote Genesis three here, but he does in other places when he's dealing with this topic. And he's just anchoring it in Genesis three, where God created men first and then he created females, and he didn't create them in order of value, he created them in distinction of role. And that is important. So the reality is men lead. Men lead and women compliment. It's not women don't lead, women just follow in submission to the authority in their lives. And that has to be the case. Now, broken authority has always distorted this, but the broken example does not uh negate the principle. Broken, broken leadership does not negate the need for good leadership. So we have to keep that in balance. And so our belief is this Christ is the head of the church, pastors are the overseers of the church, men are the leaders of their homes, women are the complement to their leadership, to the to their husband's leadership in the home. And children are to obey and honor their parents, and that's their submission. And all of us are to uh submit to government so long as it doesn't cause us to disobey God, because we ought to obey God rather than men.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Amen. Yeah, I mean it starts starts with the order and what you're saying, like being submitted to the word of God. Like if you're not, it just throws everything off. Then you're trying to do it on your own and throws the whole thing off. And I think seeing the importance of that order, especially as a man, that it's like a an honor and a privilege that God has done it this way to lead your family the right way, um, is is high stakes and great at the same time, and and not in a submissive way of domination or or or anything.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

So yeah, there's books that have been written, lots of lots of trees have been killed, and lots of sermons have been spoken on this topic. Um, some good and a lot bad. Um, but the there's a lot of churches, and this is the warning for us is um we it's God's church. We started with that. This is God's church. In fact, that's the one governing principle for this whole thing. Yeah, this is God's church, and this is God's word. Man does not have the right to change it. So think um that you know, uh one of the more liberal lines out there, the United Church of Christ, I think it is. I think it's United Church of Christ. Um, they have pretty much destroyed all of Scripture's distinctions of roles. And they have they have embraced the LGBT community, they've embraced say uh all the same-sex marriages, they've embraced all of the female leadership. And here, you know what's happening is that the the church is struggling, to be honest with you. It's really dying. And I think that is um a result of be trying to be a church that claims obedience to God and faith in Jesus Christ, but an unwillingness to submit to his word. And that's always going to be the effect. God will never bless and people will never respect uh hypocrisy. To claim I am one thing and then speak something else is the surest sign that you are a phony. And we've got to be careful that we're not phonies, even even that we who who who uh try to stay true to scripture don't bring our um our understanding of doctrine to scripture and then make sure we find scripture to support our understanding of doctrine, but to read scripture, see what it says, and then make application from scripture. That's the idea.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

So that's good. Um, we see clearly again that just priority like Paul prioritizing edification. You said that at the very beginning of your sermon. That's just over and over and over. Do you feel that weight? Like I've I've felt the weight even again from the sermon of just that's that's what it is. Like we're here for that. Paul is re over and over re-emphasizing that.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

I mean, um Yeah, it's the weight for sure. I mean, I think that that his point really throughout chapter 12, 13, and 14 was that was that the church exists for the good for not for the you you exist in the church, and the church services exist so that you can utilize your gifting and the worship service to build others up.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Building others up. That's the priority, right? And here's how you do it: don't seek self-exaltation, don't seek unintelligible speech that doesn't help anybody. Make sure you do things decently and in order because this is my church, and I want it to be effective in fulfilling the purpose that I've intended for it to fulfill. So I want the word of God to come to bear on people's lives. I want the gospel to change lives. I want your testimony and the words that I tell you, and the even the prophecy, I think that is a thing that the spirit leads you to say. I want all of that to edify and build one another up. And when we distort that and we make our agenda the thing, whether it is egalitarianism or tongue speaking or applauding of me and the performance of my gift, we just short circuit the process of edification. So yeah, there's a weight. And, you know, but I mean, we can't get weary in it. I think, I think I feel that I, you know, people have a way of making joking comments about, oh, we're dealing with that again. Oh, thank goodness this is the last one we're dealing with again, you know. And okay, fine, taken for what it is. But here's the reality is that as exegetical Bible people, if God so leads the apostle to write three chapters on the topic of edification, then we better emphasize it to the pro in proportion to how much he emphasized it, rather than say, ah, it's the same topic for three chapters. So I'm gonna preach all three chapters in one. You get the point, let's move on. Well, the key to the key to learning is repetition. Yeah. And Christ exemplified that for us, or the spirit exemplified that for us through the teaching on this topic through Paul. So, so by all means, let's get it. Let's just be reminded. And and really honestly, how how much is too much to be reminded that you're not the star of the show? The team is, the good of the other is. We can see that over and over and over again. So, yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

If you leave this chapter and you don't know that your gifts are to edify the body, like you've been gone every single chapter.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, and on that topic, I think um the point he makes there in verses, you know, 26 is this this was an active church. Yeah, I mean, they came ready. I love that. Like, I think that's cool. They came with a lesson, they came, they practiced their hymns at home. They came with a word to share, they were ready to serve. I appreciate that. Now, Paul's like, and Paul doesn't condemn them for that. Paul's not like, hey, everybody, just be quiet. Right. What he does is says, No, I don't want you to destroy your zeal. I want you to direct your zeal, not for the purpose of building one another up or or doing your own thing. Because that's probably what was happening. The best we can tell is probably in the could you imagine being in Corinth? They were probably, it was just a madhouse. Yeah. You know, it's funny is I think my phone's listening to me because reels are showing up now in social media or whatever of uh services that are happening today where people are just doing their own thing in the service. Every person in this little gathering is speaking their own thing and they're just and they somebody's filming it and they're just paying in the room, and every person is saying something different, and you don't know what anybody's saying. And I'm just saying that right there is what was probably happening in Corinth. And he says, I'm not mad at your zeal, I'm mad at where you are directing it for the purpose of having some personal experience rather than mutual edification. And that was the issue I think he's dealing with. So I like the zeal.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

No, yeah, I agree. And I think that's such a good point because we need to be zealous. We we need to be zealous for good works. Yeah, but even in Romans chapter 10, Paul says that, you know, talking about his kindred, I testify that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. Yeah. For not knowing about the righteousness of God, they're seeking their own. And it's like this is what they were doing. They wanted to be puffed up with their own um gifting, and the gifting that they got was to build up the body.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah, zeal without knowledge is dangerous. That's why we need to engage the mind. We dealt with that a couple weeks ago. Engage the mind. You keep the zeal. Now just bring truth to bear on it, and let's put some guardrails so that we make sure that we are directing, like I talked about the river. The river is a powerful, natural thing that produces life and ecosystems and and think of the Amazon. But if the river is not protected or um uh guided by its banks, it floods and brings destruction. And life can't thrive in that. It has to be guardrailed. And I think that's what knowledge and engaging the mind and submission is, is it's creating riverbanks to let the spirit of God and the gifting of from the spirit flow in its direction so it brings life and edification. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

So that was such a good illustration. The potluck illustration was really good too, man. I was like, oh yeah, like thinking about yeah, people bring some crazy stuff to some potlucks. If it's not in order, it is a disaster. Thinking about even in the worship service, if you have a hundred singers and nobody to teach, it's like, or or if nobody's serving, whatever, right? It's so many different ways.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yeah, potlucks are I don't I I now confession, I hate potlucks. I hate them. I've had people ask me here, when are we having a potluck? I'm like, never. If Jesus decides to have potlucks in the kingdom, we'll do it there. But as long as I'm here, um, I I just I just think they're they're dead. Anyways, I got the reasons. But but think about that, right? Like uh the people who come to a potluck and bring whatever they want to bring, um they are they are preparing and they're probably good. It's probably good food, but it's it's not a complete meal. So I remember when growing up, I grew up in a in a blue blood Southern Baptist church. We were potluck people, and potlucks was like one of the pillars of our church. It was like rooted in scripture, constant in prayer, and eating potlucks, right? That was just part of it. But I remember when you do it, you would have um, they would have on the back table sometimes, they would have the alphabet, and they next to uh letters, they would have what to bring. So if you were last name was A through G, bring a casserole. Uh alphabet or last name H through whatever, bring um a side. And if you're alpha, and they they would just so the secretary would do a lot of work to make sure that so that people knew my last name was Reed, it's an R. You're bringing this or something in this category. Yeah, that way we didn't all have a bunch of desserts. And you know what's funny is like I appreciated that. I'm like, now we don't have to eat chicken broccoli casserole, and everybody brings something.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

When someone brings something on to a like any gathering, you're like that's Just weird. Yeah. And that's what you talked about at the very beginning. It's like you don't want weird. Yeah. You want order. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Could you imagine going into a church pot luggage? It's like, why are there 1700 cinnamon rolls here?

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

This church is weird. Yeah. Where's the meat? You know? And I think that's the picture that's actually being presented here.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Because it's not building up the body.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

No.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

It's not benefiting the whole. It's individually saying, okay, I like cinnamon rolls, so I'm going to bring cinnamon rolls for everyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Man, I think the cool thing from this teaching that we've seen over the last few weeks or months is that an influx in people joining teams to serve. Yeah. And the coolest thing personally for me to see is people that are joining that are having immediate impact in their spiritual life.

unknown 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

And it's just to see God move in that way. It's like, yes. Yep. Yep. It's been so cool. Yep. Um, can you talk about a little bit? Like I think that naturally some people don't like authority or order. And so talk like a little bit about how that's actually order is kind and loving and not restrictive, restrictive or cold. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah. I think that um when when order is done, when the leadership is right, when the leadership is trying to get it right, when the leadership is trying to organize for the maximum impact, that is that's the river banks that keep the river flowing into productivity. Resistance to that is self-will. That's self uh a selfish agenda. I've I want I would rather be this way or I want to do it this way, or I I would speak this way, and that's fine. Um you just probably need to go start your own church, maybe, and you get your own pulpit and stage and leadership and all that. And if people choose to follow that, great, awesome. I mean, that's the reality of it. So I think that the kindness of leadership is that you are not you're not um you're not pandering to individuals, you're keeping the good of the whole in mind. So orderliness is the good of the whole rather than um just dealing, pandering to the the the the person trying to hijack the thing. And bad leadership tries to please everyone. Good leadership seeks to please the Lord and benefit everyone. That's the difference. And so there are times that pastors have to make hard decisions. The amount of hard, the hard conversations I've had where I said, hey, you know, we're just not gonna do it that way. This is how we do it, and and we we do it this way because we think this is the right way, and this is what God's leading us to do it. Um, that that we've had a lot I've had a lot of those. And those aren't easy, they're hard. But if I don't have those, what happens is I I um again allow somebody who wants to hijack the service to take it away from the maximum impact. And our heart is, we always call it high impact. We want to have high impact worship services. High impact worship services has a lot of characteristics, clarity, um, maximum involvement, um, making sure that individuals are not doing their agenda, but we're able to impact the biggest amount of people. And then obviously prayer and the spirit of God and the word of God, because that impacts people. So I think it's kind to the church to make sure that leadership leads well and organizes in an orderly fashion, because it then creates a context where maximum impact can happen rather than individual scratch and itch to fulfill their agenda. And we just can't, we're not, we're not, that's not what we do. Now you can do that. That's what Paul's point is. You can do that on your own. Go, you want to go speak that word, go speak that word between you and God. That's fine, go do that. But when you come together, when you gather together, when the church is assembled, leadership, authority, submission, orderliness, that's that's the the marks of an effective gathering. And that's where kindness, I think, would say, come in, comes in.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, I think the culture has skewed our understanding of submission and leadership so much that we we think it's a bad thing. Yeah. But God tells us in you know, Hebrews, like, obey your leaders, submit to them, yeah, so that it will be a joy for you and it'll be profitable for you. So it's not as though there's there's this thing to where if I submit to my leaders, they're only the ones that are benefiting. No, I'm benefiting because my leader is giving charge of my soul, they are caring for me, they're loving on me, and they're leading me in a biblical direction.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah, and I think that bad leadership does not negate the need for good leadership. Go that way again. We just talked about that, but bad failed pastors, there's a lot of them, and I've been devastated by multiple failed pastors, but that does not negate the need for good pastors. And it reminds us that all men are fallen and sinful. So we more so long for the day when Christ is the pastor of the kingdom, where we don't have to have this organization called the church anymore. The church isn't gonna live forever. The people of the church are gonna live forever. But Life Baptist Church is not going to be an eternal institution. It is a here for now, as long as God chooses to use the church to advance the gospel, and then one day Christ is gonna return. We shall see him as he is, we shall know him and be known, and we shall celebrate with him in all of eternity, in the kingdom, and he will be the pastor, the king, the leader that shepherds us in that way. But as long as that's the as long as as long as we're here, leadership needs to be that way, and we pastors need to be careful to watch our own lives so that we set an exemplary model for what the Christian life is supposed to be. Now, do we fail in that? Absolutely. Many do, but we still have to uh seek to follow the right leaders because it's good for us to do so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

All right. So we've already talked about order authority. We started talking about the women portion of the of the text, but let's talk a little about the tongues and the prophecy because obviously tying straight into order, it just makes a lot of sense. I think the coolest thing is these dealing with these hard texts and seeing the clarity of it actually making sense of, oh yeah, well, if you were to prophesy, like you shouldn't be talking over the person that's prophesying, it should go one by one. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that and that portion.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah, I think it's important a couple things. It it doesn't say when you come together and speak in a tongue, it says if.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

So there's not a this is how it's supposed to be every time you gather. His point is just if if it's just if it so happens, and okay, so our our b our stance is that it happened less and less as the church was established and the the forefronts of the missionary work began to expand. So Corinth was at one point the frontier of missions work. The gospel was coming to Corinth, and they were the front edge, and it became less of the front edge. And so I believe that uh scripture would teach us and and history would teach us that that the prep prep prominence and uh presence of tongues in Corinth began to began to wane. But it was still probably there, they were still longing for it. And his point was not when you come together, three of you speak in tongues, and then three of you prophesy and women don't judge. That's not his point. His point is if this is gonna happen, you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. Let me put it this way: if the spirit is gonna move and the in tongues is gonna happen, it needs to be this way. Two, at most three, always an interpreter. Why? Because order is the point. Okay, prophecy, all right, two, maybe three, but it always needs to be tried, tested to make sure that it's true. So he's not saying do it this way. He's saying if it happens, do it this way because y'all are doing it wrong. And so you think you're all spiritual because everybody in the church is doing all sorts of their own thing. And his point is like, no, actually, orderliness is what honors the Lord and edifies the church. So go to tongues, right? So specifically, let's just say that, let's just say that the modern charismatic movement today has it right that tongues absolutely should still be a part of the worship services. That's a whole other debate. I disagree. But let's just say here's what would happen is two people would get up and say, I have a word, here's the word. It's not spontaneous in that it's not like I just bust out and I couldn't help it. Oh, wait, Sister Susan has a word, let her go. All right. That's not what it is. There's an orderliness to it, right? Or or 17 people all just start busting out in some sort of ecstatic, unintelligible language. Clearly, that's not right. Clearly, that's not what Paul is teaching here. Paul is teaching order and structure in that. So even if they get the tongue should still be active in the church, right, which I disagree, they get the function and practice of it wrong. We've got to be careful there. And then prophecy as well. So I've I know of some churches where they've set up a system where if somebody has a word that they feel led to share, they can go to a pastor and say, Hey, I think the Lord is leading me to say this. That pastor can decide whether or not it should be allowed based upon what is being said. And he said, Most of the time we say, No, that's not for us. That's for you, or that's something else, right? So again, we don't do it that way. Uh, there's a function and orderliness, and that's the point. The point is keep it orderly, keep it, keep it flowing and functional so that maximum impact can happen. And so, and it's self-control. That's why he says the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophets. Um, but I think a cool thing on this is test what is said through the interpreter, if it's tongues, and through scripture and discernment, if it's a word, because there's a danger in taking what is said as being absolute truth. There's danger in taking what I say from the sermon and say that's absolute truth because I don't always get it right because the message is infallible, but the messenger is fallible. And that is, I think, what we get into when we get into problems where there's kind of this uh American religious television evangelists, televangelists, where um I have a word for you, send me this money, and people are sending hundreds of thousands of dollars to these televangelists in in confidence that the word they are speaking is truth without going to scripture to make sure it's true. And so many people have been um have been cheated out of money and lied to because of that. And and it it's been well documented. I think 2020 did a a documentary on the healing tent revivals and picked up on you know monitors in the preacher's ear from somebody telling them that there's a person in the third row whose daughter is this and they have to be. As they're looking at their Facebook page, as they're yeah, so yeah, it's just ridiculous the amount of things that happen.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

But there are two points that you said that just really grab me in that because coming out of verse 25, when the non-believer or the person that you know has not a part of our church comes in, we are to they they are to leave saying, God is must be here. Like this is this is where God is. And if there is chaos, if there is, you know, uh undecency that is going on in the church to the point to where I'm hearing the message, and all of a sudden three people just get up and start speaking in a language that I don't know, like I'm not gonna leave saying, Oh, God is here. And then on top of that, like the the the implications of testing these things, I think people can affirm, yes, I'm I'm supposed to test a prophetic word. I need to go back to the word of God. But I love that point of the interpreter is testing the tongues. If we are not going to the interpreter to test if this tongue is actually a word from the Lord, yeah, we're the ones that are being duped.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, that's right. I love how all of this in verse 33, the talk on prophecy and tongues and self-control, is anchored in the character of God. For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. And I love that point because you think about this. God always creates things orderly, though creation pre-fall, order. Disorder did not come into creation until after man fell and broke it.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

And what the church and the gospel intends to do is to for what so went what went from order to disorder because of sin, the gospel in Jesus Christ and the church's main uh agent for that is to take uh uh disorder and bring it back to order. So where there's confusion, where there's uh hopelessness, where there's turmoil, the gospel brings peace and order and and and uh and togetherness, not confusion and not uh chaos and not craziness. And that is the thing that's going to resemble the kingdom. The kingdom will be a place of order, it'll be a place of peace and clarity. And the church is a reflection of the kingdom because we are a kingdom people that meet now, for now, here, and one day we'll meet there forever as an orderly people.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

So as you were saying earlier, this is not cultural, this is as in all the churches.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the churches. It's it's it's it's anchored. There's anchor points. I love the tether points that scripture gives us. So that's another cool thing when you read your Bible. Look for tether points, things to tie things off to. So tether yourself off to God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. Tether there. As in the law, tether there. As it is in all the churches, tether there. Those are things that keep us grounded to say, wait, this is what is going on. The character of God, the law of God, the commonality of all of the churches help us understand that there's something anchoring us in truth here. Amen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So man, it would be cool to look back on like the kings, for example, like early on in the Bible, or I mean through the Old Testament to see like what went out of order, yeah, to see falling happening. Yeah. And it's, I'm sure, all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah, well, you look at some of the good kings versus the bad kings that that are chronicled throughout the you know, the historical books. The kings who who revived the reading of the law and submission to the law, they brought order. They brought they tore down idols and altars and brought order to the worship and rebuilt the temple and rebuilt the walls and reinstituted the gods' worship, and order happened. And then dietary laws fell in place that were very important for that day, especially because it was healthy. So health started to go up, and marriages probably thrived. And, you know, those types of things were taking place when a good king was in place. But whenever a bad king came in and reinstituted the worship of idols, uh, chaos began to happen and division began to happen and judgment began to fall. That's the cycle, and that's gonna be the cycle until Christ comes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Another interesting point that I had on that in studying with kings, like obviously they would, you know, go with their secession of their children and all that stuff. And you can even see the order of God's design in that. Yeah, the husband would be the king that's ruling, but then the wife would be the one training up the next kid. And it's it's again pointing back all to God's design in all of this.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Yeah, and going back to probably overlapping a couple points here for a second: authority, pastoral authority, order in the home, order in the church, order in the government, all of that is a way that God has set up some guardrails to create order, to create peace. And that's his point, right? God it God instituted magistrates and police officers and government so that unrighteousness and wickedness is uh is dealt with and disciplined and righteousness thrives. That's why Timothy, Paul tells Timothy and Timothy to pray for your leaders that it may go well with you.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

What is he talking about there? Well, live in submission and honor to your leaders so that there may be peace and togetherness there. And I just got to thinking about another point that was made, kind of illustrated, was um, there are there are situations in life where you are glad there's a chain of command.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Right? Like we talked about the airplane. And I did read that. And I know all we have several pilots in our church. So it was super funny for me to say that. And there's a lot of pilots here, that 60 some percent of men, I think it was, think that if they're in a plane and an emergency happens, they would be able to land the plane. Isn't that crazy that that many men think they can do that? That just speaks to the fall. Yeah, it just speaks to the fall of men. Yeah, and then I joke that I could jokingly, knowing there's no way, there's no way. I would be like, I'm gonna head for that mountain and let's get this over with quick. And I don't even know that I could do that. So the point the point is, and and that was funny, right? Like when the speaker comes on and goes, Hello, this is John from 32C speaking, what do you do? You panic because that guy should not be in the cockpit, he should not be leading the show. But when it comes up and says, This is your captain speaking, why do they say that? They say that because they're wanting you to know the person who should be in charge is in charge. I've still got the I've still got the control of the plane, I still know where we're going. Here's how far we are, here's how fast we're going. Look out the window to the right, and you're gonna see the Grand Canyon. Let's go, right? That kind of stuff. That I love that. And that's the chain of command. And that when there's a right chain of command, so let's pull all that together. When there's a God ordained order to the authority of the church and the home and society, there is peace, there is uh, there is not confusion, there's not turmoil. And that was God's intent for the redemption of man back from from disorder to order. And that is uh when we appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

And I think we appreciate it more so when there's chaos. Like I when I was in Chicago, I had my house broken into. Yeah, the people that I was grateful to see are my authority, the police. I was glad that they came in and was able to investigate and do all this stuff. But again, when there is chaos going on, we we strive for that structure, we strive for that order because it brings us joy, it brings it's profitable for us.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

The only people who hate authority are those who are living opposed to their guidelines and rules. The only person who don't like the police are the people who are criminals.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

The only people who don't like pastors are those who know that if a pastor confronts them, they have something to confront. Yeah. The only people who don't like authority in the home is people who don't who are resistant towards authority because they're living in such a way that contradicts that authority. But when we live according to God's good design, we fall in place. Now authority becomes a way of peace and order and protection, not a place of judgment and uh conviction. And that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

So that's good. Um you talked about balance. So I kind of want to just open that up to you because I feel like balance is a huge topic in in life and and being centered on God. And we've talked about that in the book we're reading.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

So just yeah, so I think what he's going at here is verse 39, 40, and I think throughout this, is he finishes in verse 39. So so my brothers. So he's finishing out his section on gifts and edification and church service gatherings. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. So I'm not saying don't. The spirit, if the spirit truly is in charge of that, he will control when and how that happens. Don't get away from desiring the manifestations of the spirit. And you see that back up in verse, uh chapter 14, verse 12, right? So, with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. I think Paul's finishing out his point with saying, Don't stop striving for or desiring the manifestations of the spirit. So, in confronting you in this way, I am not trying to say, everybody sit down and be quiet. Let's make this a stale, cold, wooden thing. No, he says, no, keep that. Continue to fan the flame of zeal and earnestness for the for the manifestations of the spirit. But verse 40, all things should be done decently and in order. So there's the balance. I love when when led by the spirit, the writers of scripture give us the balance. Do this, but also this. It's like uh it's like truth and mercy or truth and grace. Like be truthful, but be grace, gracious as well. Well, here he's saying, be earnest to see the spirit move and enjoy all of the manifestations of the spirit, but do it in a decent and an orderly, in a fitting and appropriate way. And what would make it fitting and appropriate? Well, the priority, yeah, edification. That's the determining factor. Was this done decently and in order? And if it was not done for the good of another person, which means it was confusing, it was loud, it was everybody doing their own thing, then it's not fulfilling the priority. Therefore, it's not decently and in order. Therefore, it should not be something that we pursue. We've got to keep the balance. So, again, talked about the ditch on both sides of the road. He's trying to protect us from chaos where there is no order, and he's trying to protect us from coldness on the other side where there is no order. No expression. He wants order and expression. And the Spirit of God dictates what the expression is in the church. If it's prophecy, if it's leadership, if it's teaching, whatever it is, the Spirit dictates that. So earnestly desire, but and do not forbid, but do it decently and in order. And let's just take that principle and run it through all of life. Balance. Anything in excess is difficult and dangerous. There's got to be balance. There's got to be balance to the way you eat. There's got to be balance to the way you exercise. There's got to be balance to what you read. There's got to be balance to how you think through different things. So keep the balance. And that is what leadership in the church carries the load of is making sure that there's a balance to how we organize our services and organize our worship activities and our ministries and all of that. So I think we could take that principle and just run it through life.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

No, I and this is absolutely true from the beginning of 1 Corinthians. Like he is calling out these issues, bringing the gospel come to bear, but then letting them know that the zeal that you guys have is good. We just need to direct this rightly. I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 6 where he says, you know, all things are profitable, but not all things are beneficial. Like I won't be mastered by anything. If I'm being mastered by this gift that is puffing myself up, okay, that's not profitable. Why? Because it's to build up the church. That's right. So if I'm to do these things and desire them, which you should, let's do them properly. Let's do them in order so that way when someone is speaking in the tongue, we have an interpreter so everybody can be edified. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

That's right. That's good. Um as we close out, we can do a couple things. We go to the truth of life. But before that, I kind of just as we're wrapping up this section, right? 12, 13, 14, just to give a like for you guys this pastoral moment, practicality for our people. You know, how do they prepare their hearts to come in the right way? How do they do this level? You know, obviously we've talked about it several times, but just another encouragement of practicality, what they can take and apply this.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

What I'll probably do is I wrote down seven takeaway principles from our study of chapter 12, 13, and 14. So there's seven of them that I think helps kind of guide this a little bit. So, first, I think what we need to take from chapter 12, 13, and 14 is to realize that the Christian life is a spirit-empowered life. It absolutely is. Apart from the spirit, we have no power. We aren't sufficient in ourselves. That's why Paul says, you know, I'm crucified with Christ, yet I live. But the life that I live, I live through Christ. What's that? That's spirit empowerment. Or he's gonna say in chapter 15 to get ahead of ourselves a little bit, but he talks about um, about how anything he did, he was who he was by the grace of God, and anything he accomplished was by that grace. Well, that grace is the power of the spirit. So the life we live is a spirit-empowered life. So this implores us to do the things that feed the spirit, walk with Jesus, surrender to the spirit daily, um, find a spot daily where you just pause and you say again to the spirit, Spirit, here's my life, here's my mind, here's my hands, here's my feet, here's my heart, here's my eyes, here's my, and I'm gonna now take your word and let it let it influence my life and my way of thinking. I'm gonna renew my mind again, I'm gonna recommit again, renew again. So that's the idea of the Christian life is a spirit-empowered life. Number two, uh, I think he's teaching us then this is value the spiritual gifts that the spirit gives you and he gives your fellow members. Never devalue the gifting he gives anybody, yourself or others. So when you come to church, you're thinking, I have a gift. I felt like there was a lady. We do lunch with the leaders. You guys remember there was a lady in the in the lunch with the leaders. It was a gathering for people who are prospect members to our church. And she just said, I just don't feel like I have anything to give. I don't have a gift. Can I still come here? And I'm like, absolutely you can, because number one, this is a place for you to be served. But second, you absolutely have one. Yes, you just don't know what it is, maybe, or you're like, I'm not sure that it's that valuable. And I just want you to know you are valuable. Now, you may have some issues that keep you from doing that, but you can do this. Yeah, or you may not have that gift, but you have that this gift. So I just don't want everyone to communicate that we all only value the prominent, high, high level, visible, visible gifts. No, you have a gift. Use that. So value and value yours. Um, and that kind of goes to three be content with the gifts the spirit gives you. Just be content with it. I have a gift, and it's not that, but it's this. And I'm not gonna sit around and mope because I don't have that gift, but I and that was so liberating for me is that not only is the actual giftedness of God, but the effectiveness of the giftedness is from God. So early in my life as a young pastor, I used to be so like hurt and distraught that my congregation wasn't as big as that guy's congregation. And I'm like, so I've so many useless nights of sleep given up to this, where finally I just realized, you know what? Not only is my gifting from God, the effectiveness of my gifting is from God. Yeah. So I'm just going to say, God, you you do what you want with me. I'm just this tool in your hand that you use to do whatever you want to do. So be content with the gifts the spirit gives you. Uh, number four, use your spiritual gifts with love. That was that's a big point. A whole chapter of 12, 13, and 14 is given to that. Use it with love, which means I'm not using it for self. I'm using it for, and that's number five, pursue love by earnestly desiring the gifts that most build up the church. Amen. So, how do you love? Well, you'd love by not thinking I've got something for them and they're gonna be so impressed with me. That's you loving yourself. You love by saying, if this, if nobody recognizes me for this, but it builds somebody up, 100% it was worth every effort given to this. That was number five. And number six, build up the church by using gifts in an orderly way, submitted way. And this is where, hey, Pastor, I think God it has given me this ability. I'd like to use this for the glory of God. How can you see? And our responsibility, failing sometimes in this, is to make sure that we direct you in the right way. Right. We have full-time staff members that are responsible to make sure that you see your gifting and use your gifting so that you do this. And then lastly, I think we would say do everything you can to cultivate unity in the church. That's what we're after. Because remember, the problem in Corinth was division. And they were all being divided over who they follow, what they think about eating meats offered to idols, this and that, and now spiritual gifts. There was a division over that. So everything you can do it to cultivate unity in the church. And if you come with those seven principles, just kind of guiding your church activity and worship services, especially, um, I think you'll come ready and helped to benefit the church.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

So absolutely, man. This is this is another reason why I love expository teaching. Yeah. Because walking through the text that way, you get to see the bigger picture of what Paul is getting at and how it comes to bear on your life in a way that is effective for the building up of the church.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah, yep, absolutely. Agree with that 100%.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Yeah, this study through First Corinthians has been incredible and and just seeing what the gospel come to bear on.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

We've got two more chapters. And so listen, if you're listening, I want you to know something. We started this series. When did we start First Corinthians? What have we last spring? We're in spring right now. So was it last spring? Spring. It was it was uh no, it was it was um, oh, was it? Was it fall of 24? No, it was it was I don't know. We've been doing this, so think about this. It's been a while. It was been a while. So let's just say this has been two years in the making to get to this point right now, right? Never, never did we think, all right, we're gonna do it this way, so that we just happen to fall on Easter Sunday and the Sunday before that on 1 Corinthians 15, which is the most extensive portion of scripture on the resurrection of Jesus Christ in all of the Bible. Now we realized that a few months ago and we're like, hey, wait, do you guys see what's happening here? Yeah. On Easter Sunday, we're gonna be in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. No way. And we didn't really manipulate things to work that way. We were always like, hey, if we could do that, that'd be awesome. But if not, so what? God so orchestrated it. So here's an indication, here's a reminder. I believe that God is interested in what happens at life on Easter Sunday. Man, the gospel will be presented, the Spirit of God will be active, the Father will be glorified, the Son will be the star of the show and his resurrection power. Invite your friends, invite your guests, take that social media thing and share it. Take that invite card and bring it to a neighbor and say, uh, I want you to come. And I don't, I'm praying and I'm hopeful and I'm full of faith for they will leave and say, whether they believe it or not, they will say, God was there. Yeah. God was there. And that's our desire for our friends and family as we live on mission.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

And this is 100% God because I've been at other churches to where, you know, I don't know what they're gonna present on Easter. I hope that they're gonna give a gospel message. But walking through the text expositorily, like I know what you're preaching, I know we're gonna get the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And full disclosure, there will be Easters when we are like, hey, we're gonna do a one-off. Full disclosure in that. God so orchestrated it here that it was gonna be this way, which I think is just a little a little flag along the way that God's saying, Hey, I'm interested. I'm in. Let's go. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

So that's cool. Yeah. All right, we pray so. All right.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Well, once again, Father, we are hopeful that the things that we talked through and discussed um were beneficial for the people listening. Um, so much more, I'm sure, to be said. Um I I I pray that you would make sense of areas where we weren't clear, that you would uh pick up the pieces that we left that need to be applied and put in put in place. Um Father, I just pray that the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ would come to bear on people's lives and that they would be transformed. That that we would be able and and this one our one small church would push back against the consumerism of church life, and that we truly would, dependent on the spirit, redeemed by the Son, uh empowered to serve others, use our gifts for the good of the church, and that you'd be glorified in it, that many would be saved, and many would be encouraged through it. Again, that's our heart, that's our desire. So as we turn our attention to 1 Corinthians 15, we ask you to bless the talk that we're gonna have over the next several weeks on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and thank you for the hope that we have because he is alive, and it's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Thanks for listening to the podcast. You can check out our latest sermon at life baptistchurch.com. We can't wait to see you this Sunday.