The Alpha Renaissance

#23 Why Nobody Takes You Seriously (And How to Fix It) w/Michael Trainer

• Taq Freeman • Episode 23

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Most men are losing rooms they don't even know they're in. Not because they lack confidence — but because they've never learned what actually commands respect. In this episode of The Alpha Renaissance, I sit down with Michael Trainer, leadership coach, speaker, and author of Resonance: The Art and Science of Human Connection, to break down the invisible force that separates men who lead from men who get overlooked.

We go deep on why coherence — not charisma — is the real source of authority, how your nervous system is broadcasting your leadership level before you ever open your mouth, the difference between a network and true resonance, why modern men are more connected than ever but lonelier than ever, and the step-by-step roadmap to finding your signal, your people, and your song. This one will change how you walk into every room.

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The views expressed by me and all guests are personal opinions and do not constitute Financial, Medical, or Legal advice.

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SPEAKER_00

We're biologically wired for connection, right? The single greatest corollary to our long-term health and happiness, the single biggest factor is the quality of our long-term relationships. That's based on Harvard research. Everyone wants to ride with you on the limo. Yeah. What you want are the people who will ride with you on the bus when the limo breaks down. So often we think about how do we change our external reality? But we're not doing enough to change the internal reality. And one leads to the other, right? Because ultimately our external is a reflection of our internal.

SPEAKER_01

Leadership isn't just what you say, it's what people feel in your presence. In the moments that matter the most, when pressure is high, decisions are irreversible, and outcomes are real. People don't look for the loudest voice in the room. They attune to the calmest nervous system. Today's guest has spent years studying that invisible force. How leaders shape rooms before they ever speak. Why presence outperforms pressure, and why coherence, not charisma, is the real source of authority. He's a leadership coach, speaker, and the author of Resonance, a book that challenges everything we think we know about power, performance, and modern leadership. This is a conversation about what it means to lead when people are reading your energy more than your words. Welcome to the Alpha Renaissance with Michael Trainer. Michael Trainer, my man. Man, so happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00

It's an honor. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, man. It was uh it feels like it's been a long time coming. I heard so much about you. Uh so many people told me that I needed to have you on the show, particularly to talk about your books that's that's out now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, resonance, the art and science of human connection. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01

I it's it's a lot in there about leadership. I feel like leadership is the is the driving theme. And you you describe it from a perspective that I've never heard before, where leadership is often framed as authority, influence. You say it's more than that. It's about emotional signaling, it's about emotional composure. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I think we're we've been sold kind of a fool's errand in the context of traditional networking. And by that I mean networking and building influence, right? Like so many of the books around relationships are extraction-oriented, right? It's kind of a another uh another relic of industrial capitalism. What can I take from you? You know, like you know, you we've all been at at uh you know various gatherings where someone's eyeing our our name tag and looking over our shoulder to see, you know, who more important they can they can connect with and and and assessing is this person someone who's can do something for me? And it's only if they can that I find value in the in the connection. And I I kind of turn that thought on its head. I think that leadership, to lead really, right, is is to have to have a a signal that people resonate with, right? And to do so is about how you what you're giving, right? What is the what is the in the book I talk about what is your song? What is your unique song that you are singing to the world, and are people responding to that, you know? And so part of that process is which I talk about through the course of the journey, is how do you come into tune with yourself first and foremost? Because I don't think people talk about that, right? We we we think about leadership solely in the context of are we leading out in the world? But everything out in the world starts first within. So part of what I've been on a journey to to share is what how do we get right internally? In other words, how do we tune the instrument that is us so that we can play beautiful music with other people? And that is a lot around listening, it's a lot around contribution, it's it's a it's a different dance than what we're that when what we're told in terms of society. And I and I that's why I use in resonance I use music as a metaphor because I started a music festival. Uh, I've I've been deeply passionate, I've been a musician, uh, I used to perform capoeira. So, like for me, music is, you know, Miles Davis has a quote that I love. He says, Music is what lives in the space between the notes. And it's my belief that leadership is what lives in the space between the notes as well. So, how do we learn to listen to what wants to live in that moment? That to me is is is a new vision of leadership, right? And that's and that's when jazz can happen, right? Like jazz is highly improvised, but it's about listening to when your song is warranted, right? And and if you if everyone's trying to play over each other, that's not music, right? That's a mess. So how do we how do we get musical in our relating? And that to me is is a it's a different vision of leadership.

SPEAKER_01

So you're saying it's not so much as taking away, not looking at what you can take away as a leader, but more so how you can collaborate, how you can play in this in this symphony together to achieve your objective as the leader.

SPEAKER_00

100%. I mean, without getting into you know politics, if you look around the world, there are certain leaders who lead based on what's in it from me, who lead based on extraction, who lead based on um power dynamics and uh and what have you. And there's leadership that I would call more of a soft-oriented leadership, a servant leadership, right? And we see this also in whether it be politics, sports, right? People that are playing for something more than themselves, you know? Like Stephen Curry, I would argue, is a great leader, right? And he's not the most vocal, but he leads with who he is, how he plays, how he shows up on the court, his commitment. And he plays for something more than himself, right? And I talk about that in the book, this concept of the more. I believe that each of us have a more or a song that wants to live through us. And it's our job in this life to prepare our instruments and also to be in the listening enough to be able to hear that song and to play it beautifully. And so part of what I talk about is from that place, how do we find the people that we're meant to play with? So, for example, using another musical metaphor, the Beatles, right? You have John Paul Ring, you have these incredible musicians individually, but together, the more is the Beatles, right? The more of their collective song, right? Which all of us, all of us know it's undeniable. You know, how do we find our our Ringo? How do we find our Paul McCartney? Like, how do we find the people that with whom we play music beautifully and where there's a resonance in that song?

SPEAKER_01

When you say that, you know, there are leaders who have this what's in it for me mentality, what does that do for the people that they're leading? How do how do they feel when you have that mentality versus the mentality of playing in a symphony?

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful question. I can I I can explain how it feels to me, um, and I and I I believe this carries over to others, but you know, it it's the opposite of resonance is dissonance. And I think if you're living in the world today, there are a lot of instances of dissonance at the moment globally. And it's my belief that resonance is the antidote to that dissonance because what resonance is, and and it's based in physics, right? Like this is actual, like this, this is not just a uh woo-woo concept, right? Like if you actually had soldiers marching on the bridge in total resonance, right? In total syncopation, they could collapse a concrete bridge based on their movement, right? It's about the exponential more that happens, right? It's it's it's something where the sum of the parts become exponential, right? And we've seen that throughout history when there have been, for lack of a better term, um you know, movements of resonance for the common good. It's been about people, it's Margaret Mead talks about that, right? It's a you never doubt the power of a small group of committed people, right? If you find a small group of committed people that are in resonance, the power magnifies beyond the any sum of the parts, right? So, an example in my own life, when we had the vision to start Global Citizen Festival, right? We cared about the world. We wanted to build a movement to end extreme poverty. At the time, that was 1.4 billion people living on a dollar 25 or its equivalent around the world. But we didn't want to do it through guilt and shame. We wanted to do it through hope and inspiration. Uh not the what I would call poverty porn sort of Sally Struthers, poor child, distended belly, you know, like let me guilt and shame you. More let's see our shared humanity. Let me see where others are living but not thriving, and how all of us can benefit when we help each other rise. And I thought deeply about the architecture of that. And I thought about film, I thought about music, and I was like, you know what? Music transcends all boundaries. Yeah, no matter what language you speak, a great song, you go to any show, when there's a great song playing, there is resonance. You can feel it. You can feel it. It's undeniable. There's no you, you know, there's no question that it that it is true. It is real.

SPEAKER_01

I met a couple, just like a couple of people in my life, and they're like, oh, I don't listen to music. You're like, wait, what? So what do you listen to? What do you do? Like you have no, you don't feel anything. I don't care if it's like the worst music, which is classical music. I don't feel like if it's that music, like if whatever music, like you've you should have some emotion to it. And having that disconnect for me is just that's you know, meeting people like that is just scary.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that I mean, not to go too far afield, but yeah, the lack of reading books, the lack of listening to music, unfortunately, with all of the we're now in a in a time in history, right? There's a Terrence McKinnack quote that I love where he said the world has changed more since 1992 than it did in the previous thousand years. Yeah. So we are, and I talk about this, the neuroscience of this, but we're biologically wired for connection, right? The single greatest corollary to our long-term health and happiness, the single biggest factor is the quality of our long-term relationships. That's based on Harvard research. So unfortunately, in this day and age, we we are now besieged, and you and I were talking about this before we started, but we're besieged by noise, right? There's so much. I lived in New York City, which is a city I love, but like man.

SPEAKER_01

Love the energy.

SPEAKER_00

Love the energy, but you gotta have, you gotta have your, you know, you land in New York, you gotta have your armor on, you know, because if you're you're gonna you're gonna get hit by so much noise. So the question is in a noisy world with you know, 1992, the start of the internet, right? Now we're in AI era. I mean, like things are move accelerating so quickly. How do you hold your signal, right? And that's that's kind of that's part of of what we're up to is is how do how do I know what my signal is? How do I hold it? In other words, how do I how do I protect my my neurobiology, my nervous system, right? How can I stay in a good way? How do I retune my instrument, right? So, like for me, for example, if it gets too noisy, if I'm starting to worry about you know all the things I'm add effect to that I have no control over, the state of the world, potential, you know, wars, disconnect, dissonance in all of its forms, then I lose my power, I lose my agency. So I know now, okay, if I go into nature, I read a book, I listen to music. Those for me are things that bring me back to my center and they and they bring me back into tune. They help regulate my nervous system. And for from that place, I'm then able to connect again. And that's interestingly enough, that's where I then get back into my circle of influence. That's actually when I start singing my song, and I can actually have an impact instead of just getting bowled over by the things I'm concerned about. I now have agency again.

SPEAKER_01

In this journey of coming to the understanding that you have now, where were you when you realized that maybe your leadership style wasn't the correct style?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I think there's, man, great question in terms of where where have I led, where have I felt that my leadership. I mean, I think I think there have been moments, you know, there's moments where you you sort of you evolve and you realize how you used to do it was probably integral to developing the insights and the wisdom, right? We've we've got to go through those experiences. But for example, when I lived in New York, and I was really proud of this, and to be honest, there's a part of it that was really cool. Like I went from a a kid that at 12 years old was jumped and developed a deep fear of humans because I had a trauma associated with being, you know, jumped by 20, 30 guys.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that'll do it to you. That'll do it to you. Uh, to a uh which I talk about in the book, but I trained myself to not see people as threats, but to see people as as worlds of possibility. Yeah. And there was a period in life where I would go into any room, and because I had had this heart, hard experience, I was like, you know what? Put me in any room, I'll connect to anyone in that room. And I think that that's a beautiful quality. But what it meant was I often left rooms with lots of business cards, but no true resonance because I was in the quantity game. I was like, how many people can I connect to? You know, like it was a game. And while I think it was integral to the development and the development of my mindset as it relates to resonant relationships, if I look back now, I don't think that that was true leadership. You know, I walked out with a stack of business cards, but I didn't walk out with deep interpersonal relationships.

SPEAKER_01

You made the first step, but after that, you were kind of like, all right, what's you had a reckoning of sorts? Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, what do I do with these business cards? These people actually remember me for anything.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I think that's I think I think that that, you know, if you look through your five, I mean I literally downloaded my phone the other day and I was like, man, I have I have over 50,000 contacts. Wow. But if you look at Dunbar, the Dunbar number, which is this sort of this idea that we can really truly maintain as humans, probably about 150, like a tribal context, 150 relationships. And of those, I mean, these are peripheral relationships. When you think about your action, the depth of relationship that you can develop, you know, it's a much smaller number. Totally. And now, if you look at the research, you know, a lot of it's it's crazy, especially with men. A lot of men don't even have one man, one person in their life that they can they can relate to, that they can that they would call when they're in a challenging time. I talk about Oprah has this quote that I love, which is at least it's attributed to Oprah, but everyone wants to ride with you on the limo.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What you want are the people who will ride with you on the bus when the limo breaks down. So I c I call it your true people, yeah, you know. And to me, I had a lot of party friends. I had a lot of friends that were there. If I wanted to invite them to the festival or there was a great party, they would be there, you know? Totally. But you if I needed to move, or God forbid, you're yeah, God forbid you wind up in the hospital or something like that. These are not people that are showing up, totally, you know. So I think um who was it? There's another great quote which is basically like I can't, I'm not I'm missing it right now. If it can't remember it was Bob Marley or who it was, but it was basically friend, you know who your friends are when when the lights are turned off, you know, when it gets when it gives when the music stops, when it gets dark, is like that's when you know who your true friends are. And and I think that what I've come to realize is in this age that professes to sell fulfillment, to sell once I have, then I'll finally be enough. Once I have X, this car, this relationship, this house, I'll finally have arrived and therefore be fulfilled. That's a fallacy. Yeah, the true fulfillment comes, in my belief, from quality experiences with people you love. And so for me, the real lottery is how can I find a depth of true connection? And who are my true people?

SPEAKER_01

And that's so you were at this point in your life where you you had this enormous network, but you were transitioning to something more meaningful, like that that that era in your life just didn't it, you didn't it didn't resonate with you. It didn't give you it, it wasn't as exciting as it used to be. Those parties, those friends, those contacts, those it just it wasn't there.

SPEAKER_00

It wasn't it. I mean, I think that's actually when you're loneliness. I I think my my father shared this with me, you know. He's like, the loneliest time in your life isn't when you're by yourself in solitude. The loneliest time in your life is when you're surrounded by people but feel unseen. You know, and I had tons of contacts, but I had very few true connections when I when it came down to it. You know, because when I was doing Global Citizen, my father unfortunately got diagnosed with cancer and then got diagnosed with dementia. And so my anchor in the world, my best friend, my father, the man who showed up for me, who had my back no matter what, was now drifting further and further from the shore. And that is for anyone who's been through it, and I know you have, that is a reckoning, you know? Totally. And when you're going through that period where your whole world is sort of shaken, you know, the party doesn't feel the same anymore. And I think that the challenge that we're in now is we're more connected than ever, but we're but we're lonelier than ever. Because actually, what's happening is we have the proximate sense of connection, but we're living our lives in comparison to everyone else's highlight reel. And I saw that in in real form. When I live, I after I was jumped, I wound up the re the way that I got over that trauma was I wound up doing what they call exposure therapy where you face your fear. And for me, or what for me, what that looked like, I grew up like you in Chicago. Yeah, I was like, how can I go as far away from my reality as possible? I can understand why you got jumped in Chicago. No, I got jumped in Spain. Oh, really? Yes. So when I was 12 years old, I my my host brother had something stolen from him, and I went to go stand up for him. And I didn't know I was standing up to, you know, I mean I wasn't threatening anyone, but basically it was a town bully, yeah, town bully gang. I don't even know what you call it, but like there was what I thought was one person was 30, yeah, and uh I took it right to the job and it got on, you know, uh, and it was not fun. Um but so I associated the things that I love the most, which is other people and travel, with trauma. So the way that I transcended that was I said, okay, you know, I don't want to take medic medication for the rest of my life and and live kind of in fear in a shell. How can I transcend that? So what I did was I was like, okay, let me I'm not much for half measures. I was like, let me go as far in this as possible.

SPEAKER_01

Was this while you were like a teenager? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So you're very conscious of this, super conscious from from a very young age. So I decided, okay, at 18, I went to Sri Lanka, which at the time was a country at Civil War. I'm the exact opposite side of the world from where I grew up. And I talk about this a little bit in the book, but I wound up getting invited into this incredible world, this incredible tradition with a seventh-generation healer. And in that culture and tradition, there's no word for privacy, there's no word for possession. So you exist in relationship to the whole. And so I went from a place where my trust in humans was broken, and I felt lonelier than I've ever felt in my life. And what happened was in this cultural context, I re-entered a culture which is what's existed since time immemorial. If you look at indigenous cultures around the world, they've had processes of individuation. They've been based on the integrity of the whole, right? We have, we are biologically wired for a tribal reality. But we're now living in this individual-centered and often lonely, I would call it a loneliness epidemic. Totally. And what's happened is I went back into a culture where the integrity of the whole was still there. And as a matter of fact, when someone fell out of balance, in other words, when they fell into loneliness, the entire community came together to bring them back into rhythm, to bring them back into balance. And they would create this elaborate from sunset to sunrise, this elaborate ritual, flowers and whole palm-fraud cities and fire dancing. And they would put them right in the middle of the circle and they would, through their shared belief system, bring that person back into the collective song.

SPEAKER_01

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00

And back into the symphony. And because they realized that if one person's out of balance, we're all out of balance because we're inextricably connected.

SPEAKER_01

How did the leaders behave in that and in that tribal ritual? Were they were they just dominant? Were they just displaying the authority? Or were they were they playing as a symphony? Did you kind of get that concept from there?

SPEAKER_00

100%. Total symphony. No, no, there's no individual dominance. It doesn't exist. Right. Like so, my my teacher in the book. Uh uh I I use Ananda is the name to preserve privacy, and also I brought in a variety of principles. What happens is that you're living in a social context. So, like, for example, Ananda was a master of 17 different things that we would call mastery, right? Like in the West, they'd probably be flexing, like, they're the best drummer in the world, best dancer in the world, you know, but he wasn't flexing on any of that because those weren't things that he was to be a show off in something. They were integral to the architecture of how they could he could use ritual to bring people back into balance. So he was a healer in the truest sense. He wasn't one of these new age fake shaman charlatans. He was an actual, like real person, right? Like, no show about it, yeah, no, no ego authority, I'm trying to flex, none of that. But he was a master of 17 different disciplines, all of which were integral to orchestrating a symphony in which a person can come back to themselves. So he was like the SEAL team six. He was like when someone was really lost and they needed, they needed rescuing, they needed like some real help. I call this guy. He's the reader. Correct. He would he was who you brought in when it got real, you know, like when the other things wouldn't work. And like, okay, and it was, I mean, when I say elaborate, it's like, you know, the degree to which a person feels seen, heard, and loved is is profound because the amount of effort that goes into it is is incredible. I mean, it's weeks of effort from the whole collective, right? So, and then I volunteered with a uh a group called the Sarvadaya Shramadhana movement. They literally incorporated every single person in a village. They had a saying, we build a road and the road builds us. And and I was introduced to this whole world where the social and the collective transcended the concern of the individual. And that doesn't mean individuals weren't celebrated or you couldn't have individual gifts. It just wasn't, it wasn't all about me, me, me. It was about we.

SPEAKER_01

You know, we're we're from the proverbial West, right? The greatest part of civilization that ever existed, right? At least that's what we're told. And very individualistic society, individualistic civilization, particularly America. And I too had a chance, you know, I lived in the Middle East, I went to border school in the Middle East, and I always felt that that was a completion of who I was because the individualistic civilization merges with the collectivist civilization, and you kind of get to see the other side, that tribalistic side. The tribe takes care of its own. And yeah, you know, every you know, none of these places are perfect, but that yin and yang kind of gives you perspective. Is that what you are describing right now? Is that what you felt when Sri Lanka?

SPEAKER_00

To a degree, I think that it is beautifully said, in that I think what where we are now is we're in a dance because there is beauty in the exaltation of individual gifts. 100%, right? I love seeing people, you know, in the West, we exalt people based on the their individuality, their ingenuity, you know. And we had we had the fortune of hosting, you know, some of the best musicians of the world, Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Cole, you know, that music exists because these individuals were exalted, you know, uh, and and they found their song, and we are better for it. And at the same time, I think that the antidote to some of the ills that plague us in this individual-centered society is to return back to some of the cultural roots that still privilege and prioritize being part of something more, being part of a group, being part of a collective. Because what we're seeing, and you know, as a doctor, is the biological consequence of isolation, which is profound. I mean, the incidence of all kinds of disease is exponentially increased when someone feels deep loneliness, depression, you know, like we have never fully contended with the context of the social ills that plague us now because our biology has never faced the circumstances we now find ourselves in, right? Like we've we we we've evolved hundreds of thousands of years in this tribal context, and now we're in this brave new world of the internet, AI, news, right? Like in a tribal culture, you wouldn't be beset with news of all the darkest things that are happening in every tribe around the world, right? Like, and our nervous systems aren't really oriented towards that. So I think we're in this kind of incredible experiment, and there's a lot of beauty to that too, right? Like, I mean, you if you are alive today in almost any circumstance, definitely if you're listening to this podcast, you are better off than a king was totally, you know, 200 years, 300 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I would tell you a big girl knows more about the known world than than Jesus did, it's you know, which is crazy. It's wild. But you were talking about the most influential people in history, right? That your child probably knows it knows more about science, physics, chemistry than the greatest people that ever lived.

SPEAKER_00

Well, they have access to they have access to more information than they've ever had. But the challenge, the challenge is what those do they have the wisdom? Do they have the embodiment?

SPEAKER_01

Is that what you think people get wrong right now living in an individualistic culture?

SPEAKER_00

I I wouldn't necessarily say wrong, because I think part of the challenge is right and wrong, like this dualistic orientation. What I would say is I think that we've lost our way to a degree. We've lost our way in terms of knowing what truly matters, right? There's an achievement, and I love, I'm achievement-oriented, like you. I'm I'm ambitious, like a lot, a lot of us are, right? But we're not gonna find fulfillment in that, in that game of me, my acquisition, external accolades. Doesn't mean they're not worthy, but it what it does mean, I talk about in the book, which is not my concept, I believe it's Arthur Brooks, but resume goals and eulogy goals. Right? Yes, right? Like, I'm so glad I, you know, went to Columbia and got a Fulbright Scholar, all these things that are that are very much resume goals and meant something for me, you know, like especially as a kid growing up with learning disabilities. But my eulogy goals, you know, on my deathbed, I'm not gonna be like, oh man, glad I got a full ride to Columbia.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't that, you know, like even before your deathbed, though, like what I mean, what what resonates with you if you're a young person, the things that are gonna resonate with you at 40 and 50s is completely different than those resume goals.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. I mean, and that and that's a question I actually asked my, I think it's a beautiful exercise is is to think through, like, okay, you know, we we dramatically overestimate what we can accomplish in a day, what we dramatically underestimate what we can accomplish in a decade. And for me, I just I just ran this exercise where I'm like, okay, 10 years from now. What and it's interesting because it's kind of this trend right now on social of like going back to 2016, and I was like, wow, you know, like it's it's a wild exercise. Like go back and look at your what you were doing 10 years ago. Um, and for me, I had I had the honor to host his own dai lama, and I had this reflection point 10 years in because I got reminded, right? Like I got reminded of this moment. And for me, it was about making my father proud and meditation and the cognitive benefits. But that was a lesson in itself because I what I realized is my father was proud of me no matter what. I didn't have to do anything to earn his approval. Um, and there was a reckoning in that was a beautiful lesson. But I think to myself, 10 years from now, and I and exactly what you said, like some of the simplest things are the things that are my goals, right? Like, yeah, of course, I I of I want to do, you know, I would like to be financially abundant. I would like to, you know, start another, you know, I want this company and this this enterprise resonance to to grow and and be successful and the external validation that that brings, but that's so far secondary to wanting to have a partner that I deeply love and to share my life with a family, which God willing will be will be in my future, and to share the love of the more that is that band, right? Like I talk about the idea of finding your people. And to me, I've had the the the beauty of dancing with people around the world, and and I'm so grateful for that. But I still yearn for family. And to me, 10 years from now, what would what would I like to see? I'd like to be deeply in enjoy in with playing music with my band, aka my family, you know, my partner, my children. Um so to me, but that's the phase of life I'm in now, right? Like when I was 20, my 10-year goal was different, right? So I think it's it's really about looking at what not what the outside, right, like says is is success, right? Because a lot of people get to their deathbed and they and they, you know, you look at Bonnie Ware did a book on the five regrets of the dying, right? Number one regret, they never took a shot at living life on their own terms, right? They never sang their own song, they lived it based on what society, they thought society told them to do, and fear of judgment of what it would look like if they actually took a step out on their own, right? So to me, it's like, how do you assess? And that's what leadership is, right? How do you assess what you what's authentic for you? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you say something very powerful in in terms of people reached the end of their life, right? They they had to study where um this she was a nurse, I think, and she asked. That's it, Money Work. Oh, Monty Work, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. So she asked people on their deathbed, what was the number one thing you regret about your life? And it was always uh the number one thing, if I remember correctly, was not being your true self, yeah, not living your life and and living and being the person that you were behind closed doors, not living your truth.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you hear that, it makes sense, and you're like, okay, I understand that, but there's a blockage there as well. And sure oftentimes people will put it on society. Well, society said this. Oftentimes they'll put it on whatever institutions, but well, I mean, what do you think it is? Because to me, it sounds like it's us making that blockage.

SPEAKER_00

It's a nuanced question, but what I would say that I think might might be most helpful for for those listening or watching is I have a a great uh friendship with a gentleman named Stephen Pressfield. He wrote a book called The War of Art, which I recommend anyone uh read. Great title. It's incredible, it's incredible. But what he talks about, I and I think is helpful in this context, is is the notion of the muse and resistance. And in my own way, I the way I think about it is the muse is that force, and in my own context, I think about it like music, that force or that music that wants to live through us, that unique song, that unexpressed potentiality, right? That creative project you've been dreaming about, that that that new career you you you you you wish you had the courage to start, right? That book you want to write. But the bigger that vision is, the more commensurate resistance will rise that will push against that, right? The more our fear of self-judgment, the more our all the little piccadillos we have in our brain, right? Because it's our own self that will try to sabotage us. Totally. So there the bigger the vision, the more authentic the vision, the more resistance will evolve to share the fear-based voices that keep us from that. So part of it is the dance of how do I stand in that song regardless, you know? Right now, I'm launching a book. I was a kid who grew up diagnosed with a learning disability, tracked in remedial classes, you know, and and for me, writing that book was my existential confrontation, my muse wanting to dance, right? And I'm super proud of that. And and I think it's an incredible book. And it took me five years to write. Like it was not like it was not an overnight. And I wrote it and rewrote it three times. So for me, it was an it was an exercise. This podcast, you and I were talking before we started recording, right? I started recording my podcast in 2014. I didn't launch it until 2019 because my resistance was you can't go for some guy hosting Beyoncé in front of 70,000 people to some cat with a microphone in his living room. Like that, my ego thought that looks terrible. Like that's a bad look. Yes, you know. So so that kept me from live opening up that whole new aspect. I mean, you know, now, I mean, I've been I've now I launched one up launching in 2019, it's 2026. In the last seven years, my life has changed profoundly, as have podcasts. Yes, totally. Because of that journey. Yeah. But I had five years of resistance before I, and I had recordings with incredible, I mean, I had the event with this holiness, I had deep, all these people, I had conversation. I was just sitting on it. And that's the thing is we all sit on these dreams, right? Proverbial, literal.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the I think the quest is to really, really reckon with what is, and that's why I call it your unique song. What is yours to give, what is yours to contribute, and then being in the dance, because it is a dance, right? Like it's not like it's like, okay, I know what I'm gonna do, and there's gonna be no roadblocks, right? Like the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell talks about this, but you know, we've got to go through the descendants before the ultimate transcendence, right? Like mythologically, we've got to go through the dark night. We've got to, we've got to contend with the challenges to evolve into that next level of individuation. And so I think so many of us now, it's even even harder because I mean, one, we have more tools than we've ever had. You were just talking about with your kid, right? We you you got you you got in your hand now the opportunity to have the most robust library, you know, that that that exists on the planet. But at the same time, you're more besieged by distraction than at any period in history. So the question is, how do you, and I talk about this, how do you separate signal from noise? Yeah. And how do you know what is your authentic note, your true signal? And how do you find the people that help bring that signal to life? How do you find the people that that play beautifully with you? And one very I'll keep it tangible because I've been speaking very kind of mythologically, but one thing I talk about is batteries and black holes, right? So all of us have an experience, you know, there's a there's a notion of givers and takers, you know. I like givers and takers in that it's clear, like, oh, okay, like, you know, Tac invited me on a show. That's a very giving, generous thing, you know? Um, and there it could, I'm not saying with this context with you, but a giver could also be someone who gives from manipulation, right? Like someone gives me gifts, but they actually want something from me. And and and so that to me could be a black hole. Whereas you could have someone who's a who's a taker. In other words, you might have a friend who's, you know, let's just say he's always they're always broke, like an artist or something. But to be the first person to be there to help you move, or the first person to call you if you're going through a hard time, that to me is a battery, right? That person charges you up. Yeah, yeah. And you know that based on how you feel when you're around someone. And that goes to the nervous system, right? And so to me, it's like, how do we find the batteries in life and also spend less and less time around black holes? And that and that's people, places, things, there's all kinds, you know, that can translate to all, for example, right now we're in a place that I love, awesome, yeah, right? But it's been a black hole for me in the last month because I'm allergic to it, right?

SPEAKER_01

Literally, literally, literally allergic, literally allergic to it.

SPEAKER_00

So I had to follow my own medicine. I was like, I have big plans here, but I'm in the listening, right? Which I talk about. I'm in the listening. It's like, okay, it's not to say I can't come back, but I didn't know. I was literally allergic to cedar pollen, right? Like certain people I'm allergic to. Totally. Doesn't make them bad people, and that's why I use music, right? Like, no disrespect to anyone. Like, if I go to a Metallica bar, I'm gonna walk right out. Doesn't mean Metallica is bad music at all. It's just not my kind of party, right? So whereas someone's playing Tribe Call Quest 90s hip hop, all right, let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. So, but that's but that's that's it, right? I think there's a it's a healthy distinction to say not good and bad. Doesn't mean that's a bad person, it's just not my people.

SPEAKER_01

Well, what do you think the challenge is of when you're interacting with the black hole versus a battery and you're trying to navigate it? What is the challenge from that person interacting with those people?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think the challenge is how to, at least from my point of view, is how to be gracious and and and also still be discerning, right? So, how do you balance graciousness and discernment? And I think part of that is knowing you we don't always necessarily know. And also, by the way, it's a changing thing, right? There are people in our lives that may have one time been a battery and now they're a black hole. It's based on, you know, all of us in life are ideally growing and evolving, right? It's besides we're black holes, by the way. Yeah, we can be, absolutely, to certain people, yeah. So but it's it's that notion, right? Like, and that's why relationships are such a dance, right? Because, for example, romantic relationship, you know, you get you get married with someone, you know, you're both growing and evolving. So you got to constantly retune with each other and recommit to that dance, right? And if you're not, if behaviorally you're not, or if all of a sudden you start trying to dance with someone else's signal, right? These are all things that like you could have been batteries for each other, and then all of a sudden now it's entering into a black hole, like an energetic. It's it's it's a it's a I don't like actually I'm not even gonna use the word toxic, I don't like that word, but basically it's entering into a different conversation, right? A different context. So I think part of it is we have right, we have this incredible intelligence system, right? We have our brain, obviously, we have our heart, and that's resonance is a I've been very head dominant most of my life. Resonance is about getting more in tune with the heart. Do you think that's a male thing? I think it's a I think it's a today thing, you know. Like I think, I think we're we're so cog, yes, I do think is, but I think we're so heady and we're so oftentimes disembodied. We've lost the intelligence of alignment to our our other wisdom, right? Like our gut is our enteric nervous system, right? Our gut has a lot of wisdom. And when you say like, your gut usually knows if someone's for you or not, you know, like so. To me, like I think about like how do I feel in someone's presence?

SPEAKER_01

Your head being you try to analytically plow through correct and you your heart being you try to feel that live. Is that how you would describe it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and they're and they're not disembodied, right? Just like in in medicine, right? Like I love functional medicine because I like the idea of seeing the body as a whole and complete system, not as a disembodied, oh, it's just your head, you're just your heart, right? I think that's part of the problem, is just like we've lost sight of our collective connection, we've lost sight even individually of how our systems are intertwined, right? There's a beautiful book I recommend if you want to go hard into it for anyone listening, called The Jewel Net of Indra. And it's a Hawaiian Buddhist text, but it talks about how the net of life, at each intersection of the web, there's a jewel. And that jewel is an reflection of the infinite web that is all things. And and and philosophically, it's about the microcosm is the macrocosm.

SPEAKER_01

And so the microcosm is the macrocosm.

SPEAKER_00

The microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. In other words, like, I mean, you could go deep into this, but like the mycelial network, literally, like the the the fungi that connect the earth the soil. If you actually put them under a microscope, it looks like the cosmos of the stars. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, yes, yes. So like just like us.

SPEAKER_01

Small representations are larger representations. Correct.

SPEAKER_00

So like our heart, our gut, our brain, it's it's it's a it's a total system, right? Just like the ecosystem of the planet or the solar system or the universe, right? You can co you can map it out. So I think what what I'm advocating for, what I what I'm trying to be more in tune with is the intelligence of our whole body system. What is my gut telling me? What is my heart telling me? You know, like I might, my head might be like, oh man, I get taxic, you know, like great guy. You know, I gotta, but like, how do I feel when I'm with him? Yeah, luckily I feel great when I'm with him. But there's other people.

SPEAKER_01

But it's real. Sometimes it's not some, I mean, I've had interviews and people where I'm like, man, I don't know how we're across from each other, but we're gonna make it work because we have different energy. Um like we're the publicists, like, hey, hey, what's going on? But you know, that's a part of it. But you know, one thing I love about your book, um, man, it's excellent. You you you do this first principle thing where, like you're talking now with the head and and the gut and you know, the feeling and the mind, you bring it back to just what centering yourself is to be better for others is and it's this regulation of your nervous system. That's right. You the leader is just a nervous system, that's primarily what is guiding others around you, and that's what people are responding to. I I love that concept. How did you how did you get to that? What what in what in your journey allow you to get to that that concept to to make that realization?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think two things. One, there's sort of the the the the journeying through life, which has been was which has been regulating my own nervous system, right? Like Like I talked about, like going through trauma to getting back into equilibrium within myself. That was a that was not an easy journey. Um, and and it's and it's an ongoing one, right? But then you also, then I also went deep into the research, right? And like there's incredible now cutting edge research all around basically social biology and how integral our social dynamics are to our overall neurobiology. Like we literally enter into a coherence field, like our biology changes based on who we're surrounding ourselves with, right? So like if you're a science person, I also go super deep into this. Like it's it's fascinating. And and and I think if if you're if your nervous system doesn't feel comfortable around someone, that is a that is a powerful signal. They're they're likely not for you, you know, and now there's other questions, of course, like am I am I anxious, am I out of balance myself? But that's partly why I talk a lot about finding your center, which are a lot of the practices around what you'd hear today around regulating your nervous system, you know, and that's different for different people, but there's certain universal things, you know, like for me, meditation, breath work, going into nature, getting sun, you know, like I could say, oh, I'm going the sun, I'm getting vitamin D. Sure. But like also it's like for me, it's I'm getting, I'm coming back to my center. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And when I'm in my center, that's actually when I'm that's when I'm in tuned biologically, physiologically, you know, uh psychologically, so that I can take in the information of other people and know who's for me and who's not for me. Yeah. And when I'm not, you know, for example, and this is not uh vilification. Uh I drank for a little while, but like I don't drink at the moment, right? I haven't I haven't had a drink in, I don't know, a year and a half. Yeah. And it's a great experiment to have.

SPEAKER_01

It is a bad one.

SPEAKER_00

No. Yeah, and and by the way, like, you know, there are like I one of the things to talk about in the book is the blue zones, right? Like there are people in Sardinia who live over a hundred years and they have, you know, they have a bit of wine, but they also have incredible social connections, you know? Huge.

SPEAKER_01

So an incredible food, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. But but the research shows, you know, if you're a if you're lonely in this day and age, it's the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day, right? Like there's there's actual, like profound physiological consequences. So to me, it's like, okay, when I took one of the benefits of taking alcohol out of my life was I got way better at staying in center around knowing who's for me and who's not for me, and also way better at not trying to surround myself with party friends, right? Because when you're drinking and you're a couple of glasses, that's what it's good for. Exactly. I mean, you make some social connections when you're a little bubbly.

SPEAKER_01

You do, but when you take that away, it really takes the mask. I mean, I've had friends where we've known each other for a very long time. And what kept us together was our social connections. We had a lot of friends, we did a lot of things. And then the minute when you remove one of those layers, like alcohol, relationships completely change. And you're like, oh my God, 10 years, 15 years, I've known this person, these people. And the relationship is completely different without alcohol.

SPEAKER_00

It does shift it. It does shift. I mean, my relationships are very different since I stopped drinking. But I think that also goes to that piece, right? And this isn't it's what are your priorities and what are you optimizing for, right? Yeah. So for me, like to what you talked about earlier, right? Like for me, my next decade, I want to optimize around partnership and family. Yeah. I'm not trying to optimize around, I need to get 10, you know, 10 new friends in one night or or hook up all, you know, like, and so it's like, okay, I'm gonna find someone who's way more in tune if I, if my signal is clear, right? But whatever it is that that that helps bring you back to center so that you can both be a signal but also listen for the other signals that are in resonance with you, that's what I'm an advocate for, right? And that that that looks different for different people. Totally. But for me, what I've realized is I know now the things that bring me back. And so my commitment and what I what I share and what I what I advocate for, and and by the way, in the book, the whole context isn't just why to do this, there's a whole roadmap onto the how. And I think that's that's what I was really focused on because it's like, oh yeah, okay, like a lot of people say, hey, we we have a loneliness epidemic. Of course, that's true. Yeah, but then what do we do about it? You know, like how do you actually how do you actually move from loneliness into social cohesion and feeling the strength of that? And and so what I do is I map out that whole roadmap with exercises, things that have worked for me and other people that I've researched. And basically, how do you come back into a place of wholeness? How do you find your band? And then from your band, how do you find your symphony? How do you find those that are that that amplify your song in in a good and beautiful way?

SPEAKER_01

When you're around those people that don't amplify your song, what are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00

Dissonance. What's going on under your skin? I mean, I so from me personally, you know, I think it look, and I think people can recognize that, right? Like we all have there's nervousness, there's different things, and part of that is is normal, right? But like it's so wild. Like anyone listening or watching will know this, right? It's like you know, when you there's certain people you just get around and you're like, man, you just start laughing. Like you become a better version of yourself. You know, it's like I'm cracking you up, you're cracking me up, we're having fun, like we're you know, whereas other people, for whatever reason, you get around them and you're like, you're self-conscious, you're like, uh man, did I say the wrong thing? Like they they the signal you're getting from them isn't good. You know, it's just like, oh, I feel like they don't even want to talk to me. They're looking over my shoulder, they keep checking their phone, right? Like it what it feels like is disconnection. Yeah, that's what it feels like, right? Whereas resonance feels like I'm laughing, you know, like we're vibing, like we're in, you know, like we're playing, we're playing jazz, you know, like we're we're together. We're we're together, man. You know, and that happens socially too, yeah. Exactly. At this moment in time, we're together. That's right. We're we're together and we're hitting the notes, you know, like and it's undeniable. Just like a good song is undeniable, right? Like when you're listening to a good song, everyone's in resonance, undeniable, right? So to me, it's it's listening for those people and those moments that are undeniable, and and also recognizing, right, that not everyone's for you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you get you you you talk about the loneliness epidemic or being around those people that are not for you, and you get around them and you feel bad, you feel everything that you describe, you feel that gut feeling that I'm not in the right place, I'm not in the around the right people. What's the first step a person should take to free themselves?

SPEAKER_00

There's there's a couple different ways I would answer that. So there's the things that you would do socially, but what I what I would advocate for is actually a step before that. Because I think so often we think about how do we change our external reality? But we're not doing enough to change the internal reality. And one leads to the other, right? Because ultimately our external is a reflection of our internal. And so basically, what I would advocate for is getting quiet. One of the things I talk about in the in the book is being in the listening. For me, what that looks like is, and this sounds ironic because I'm talking about how do you connect socially. For me, it looked like doing like a vision fast. And I went to the Lost Coast in the northern California and I sat with myself for a week. And I wasn't around any signal except for nature. I was literally just listening to the crashing of the waves, and I would go bathe in the waterfall. And I saw, I think in the entire week I was there, I saw four people and one Rhodesian retreat.

SPEAKER_01

It's like a silent retreat, a self-imposed silent retreat.

SPEAKER_00

Self-imposed, silent. Some-imposed silent return.

SPEAKER_01

So you put yourself in exile, which is also a time-honored tradition of the ancients. That's right. They all, I mean, they all went to a cave or to a hill, to a mountain to figure out and to connect. And I'll tell you too, I when I started podcasting, before I started, I thought I needed to become a better talker, right? I thought I needed to talk more. So I hired one of the best uh comms coach that I've I've ever seen in my life, Neil uh Bendari. He actually came on the show, and the first thing he told me to do was shut up. Yeah, that's it. He told me to shut up. He said, Hey, you know, you don't listen, you don't ask any questions. And I thought to myself, well, my wife says that all the time, but now that he's saying it, I guess uh I guess it's true.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, I think right there's an old saying we have two ears and one mouth for a reason, right? Like listen twice as much as you talk. But I think that your life is also based on the quality of the questions you ask to yourself and to others. Yeah. And for me, what that silence afforded, and there's been, like you said, cultures, whether it be Vision Fast, Vision Quests, um, since time immemorial have prioritized that as a way to get right, in my opinion, with yourself, but also right with the world. But also to know what your signal is like when there's no interference. So to me, it's like, okay, also when you're listening, it's amazing the insights you get, right? Part of the challenge, you know, for me, I get such great ideas, right? Like I tap into the muse, I tap into what wants to move through me in those moments of quiet, right? In those moments of center. And that's not happening when I'm watching Netflix or when I'm, you know, like besieged by other people's, you know, uh noise. So I think it's first finding what brings you to center and committing and knowing what those are the tools in your tool belt, right? When whenever you start to feel like, oh, I'm a little bit out of tune, how do I tune my, how do I tune back up, right? Like, so how do I find my center? So part of that is being in the listening, and that's being in the listening to yourself, but it's also being in the listening to the world around you and knowing and listening to that intuitive voice that knows, okay, I gotta go, I gotta go tighten it up, I gotta go tune tune back in. For me, if I if I'm feeling like, ooh, you know, like especially when I was living in Los Angeles, I'm starting to feel a little off, I jump in the ocean.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The cold, the salt, the water just cleans all the yeah, you know, and I'm back. It's like, okay, so I've got that's like that's one tool. If I'm in a moment where I'm in a room and I'm feeling like, okay, I'll actually like like okay, I need to bring myself back, you know, your breath is an incredible regulator, you know. So just knowing what it is that brings you back to center, that to me is the first step. And and then and the way that I structured the book is actually the first half, ostensibly, is about how we get right with ourselves. And then from that place, just like a ripple, like of a stone in the water, right? Like, how do we how do we get into a beautiful partnership? How do we get into a great relationship with our family? How do we get and maintain great relationship with our community? And then it scales out, right? Because just like the Dunbar system, it's like, okay, what are our most intimate relationships? What are our close personal relationships? What are our peripheral relationships at work? How do we maintain that, right? Because we we don't control all these environments, but what we do control is ourself. So how do we how do we get in tune? And then from that place, how do we both know when something is in dissonance, how do we transmute dissonance, and then how do we find the people that are truly for us in the resonance?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so it's is the first step is just really tuning yourself, yeah, hearing your own voice, hearing others, but uh taking the noise that is your brain silencing it for a little bit so you can just become more aware of what's going on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. And no, and and listening to your brain, but but also knowing that there's other intelligence that wants to move through you, right? That's why I talked earlier about like the notion of your gut and your heart, right? And also the beauty of when you've established certain batteries in your life, certain people that are your good people, right? Like one of the I think one of the best aspects of of great relationships is feedback, sometimes hard feedback, right? Like only your real people will give you real feedback. And if you get the same feedback from, say, two, three, four friends, then you know it's probably true. It's not just someone's opinion, but it's likely a reflection of something you get to work on. And I think, you know, when we're committed to being the best version of ourselves, we've got to find the people that are that are there for us, but also there for us with the real talk, you know? Like, and and to me, like that that's part of the tuning process. It's like, okay, yes, listening to the voices within, not just our brain, but like, okay, what's my gut telling me? What's my heart telling me? Am I is this coherent? Is this aligned? That's the other piece, right? Like, if you never do this, what's the consequence? Yeah. Consequence is you get to your deathbed having having never really sang your song, right? Like many people spend their whole life climbing a ladder that was handed to them. Totally. And they've never actually taken the time to recognize is this even on the right building? You know, like am I am I climbing, am I climbing in the direction of my authentic dream, or am I just doing what I was told to do since I grew up? You know, a lot of people's relationships are based solely on proximity. Yeah, right. Like who did I go? Who did I grew up next to, who did I go to school with? Exactly. Yeah, not that that's bad for me. I have great friends, my best friend that I went to school with. Totally. But, you know, it's also knowing what what taking the time to know what is my what is my song, what is my deep desire, and putting myself in a place where that is celebrated. You know, tactically, for example, I'm not an actor, I have no desire to be. But like if I've done deep work, gotten quiet with myself, and realized that my dream in this life is to be an actor, but I'm living in Wichita, Kansas, you know, part of this is also like you become like the people you surround yourself with, right? Like I'm probably not in the right ecosystem. So, you know what? Let me let me get up and move to a place. So much of your reality is is decided by who you are around. So let me go ahead and physically move myself to a place where that's more in alignment. If I if health is my goal and my five closest friends are morbidly obese, doesn't mean that they're bad people, but it's gonna be real hard if they're if they're two out of 10 health-wise, for me to get to 10, right? Like I got to go get a trainer or I gotta go to a place. Doesn't mean you have to distance yourself with them as friends, but like if I want to get to a 10 in a certain thing, one of the best ways to do it is to surround yourself and develop authentic relationships with the people that embody that.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it's so many things that you've touched on uh in terms of feedback for you're a young guy, you're trying to, you're trying to attune, you're trying to find that power, but you also have an ego.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01

And you you you're you're you're getting feedback from everyone all the time. Some you know, positive, whatever, it might be from your friends, it may be from uh peers, whatever, colleagues. How do you remove that ego and sift out the positive feedback, the necessary feedback, the critical feedback?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think part of it is you know, there's a real temptation to say get rid of the ego. The truth of the matter is I don't know how to do that. You know, like I know how to I know how to dampen the voice and be a little bit more in tune with perhaps a wiser voice, whether it be your friend's voice, your wife's voice, you know, the voice within. And and that that's the other piece, right? That's exactly the same process I was talking about earlier, right? Like my ego is oftentimes in operation when I'm trying to protect something that feels because your ego, that's kind of what it's trying to do, right? Yeah, it's trying to trying to preserve this image that you're projecting out in the world.

SPEAKER_01

It's like your parents, it uh it's you know, it screws you over, but it's just trying to protect you.

SPEAKER_00

There is a protective mechanism there, right? Totally. So, so so, but just like you know, meditation is about, and whatever that looks like for you, is about listening to the deeper, right? Like our ego is kind of like the tip of a wave, right? But who we are is the depth of the ocean beneath the wave, right? So, how do we actually tap into the depth of what is true, not just think that that tip is our entire being in reality? And to me, that's where I return to those tools, right? Like I return to the meditation, I return to the breath, I return to the thing that is the more, right? Like nature for me is church. It's like that is a is a representation of the more. Totally. And it also helps me recognize and put things in in perspective, right? Like we oftentimes, you know, and that's why the eulogy goals are so great, right? It's like in on your deathbed is the thing that is causing you absolute stress. Like, is it is it actually as devastating as you'd like to think it was? Like earlier this week, I'll give a tangible example. I had an opportunity,$52,000, you know, kind of opportunity that went away. And I'd spent, you know, a couple days preparing the pro preparing for it, etc. And what was interesting was in another period in time, I probably would have gotten into like all of the mental conversation around like, oh, that was wasted time. Oh my God, what would how would that have been beneficial for me? What would that money mean? What was interesting is in this moment, I didn't stress about it at all. I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like, let me pivot. And it and I used the energy that I had built as a training to prepare for that proposal, and instead took it to the book. And I was like, all right, what's the thing that's in my sphere of influence, right? That's my sphere of concern. And what what from a place of listening can I learn right now? And I was like, you know what? I realize I'm doubling down too much on things that are in my sphere of concern. And I'm giving my agency, my energy, my precious life force, right? Like there's a great saying which is that the true cost of anything is the amount of your life you have to invest in it to see it come to fruition. Yeah. And I was I was investing too much of my life in things that I had no agency over. And I realized that recently too. I read the Wall Street Journal every morning. I'm gonna stop doing that because I'm investing my the first precious part of my day where I'm in that liminal still between the dream time and the wake time in things I have no agency over.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So how do I return back to, okay, because when I was writing, that was my creative time. How do I return back to the creative force, to my zone of influence, the areas where I do exert control? Because when I double down, as Stephen Covey says, on my zone of influence, it actually expands into my circle of concern. But if I try to spend all my energy on areas where I'm just in my circle of concern, I actually diminish, ironically, my influence in the world and my life force. And I'm spending my precious life force on things that I exert no influence over. And I think that's one of the greatest challenges of our time today is there's we're besieged by so much noise, striving for our attention, our precious attention. And it's more savvy than ever before, right? We have algorithms that are entirely based on our psychographics. You know, like there was a saying, I think it was the Cambridge Analytica days, where it's like, give me a hundred of your likes and I know you better than your wife like knows you. Give me 200 of your likes and I know you better than you know yourself, right? Like we have exactly we're now up against like forces that are engineered to pull us into our circle of concern and to start judging our lives based on the highlight reel, right, of all other people. And that's why we're more connected now than ever, but we're more lonely than ever. And so to me, resonance is the antidote. It's like, okay, how do we return to the things that actually matter, the areas in which we actually have agency, and how do we start to sing our song such that others can hear it beautifully and we attract the real wealth in life, which is the quality relationships and experiences that bring us to our vitality?

SPEAKER_01

Michael, that was amazing.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

I can't think of another way to close this out. Uh, I mean, I have so many more questions. I have literally a list of things here that I wanted to ask you. Yeah, we touched none of those.

SPEAKER_00

Well, maybe, maybe we would do it again.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're gonna have to do this again. I mean, I had so many, uh, but I know I know you uh gracious enough to be here today. You got a flight to catch. So really appreciate your time. I really appreciate you allowing me to pick your brain a little bit on these topics. I learned a lot. I feel invigorated. I feel I want I won my symphony. Yeah, yeah, I might even listen to it. Which I thought was amazing about Beethoven being deaf. I mean, that was crucial. Uh, but thanks for being here. And we're gonna have to do it next time.

SPEAKER_00

Sounds great, my man. Thank you so much, Steph. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.