The Feral Fandoms Podcast
Why do some stories explode into global fandoms while others fade away? What makes readers ship characters, obsess over merch, and turn books into cult phenomena?
The Feral Fandoms Podcast dives deep into fandom culture — from Twilight to K-pop, Supernatural to BL dramas — to uncover the psychology, rituals, and chaos that fuel obsession. Hosted by author and cult-brand strategist Onley James and cohost Shannon Ezzell, each episode blends pop culture analysis, fandom breakdowns, and witchy insights with practical takeaways for writers and creators.
If you’re a burned-out author, indie creator, or fandom fan who wants to stop hustling and start building a devoted audience, this podcast is your initiation. Expect ship wars, fandom lore, marketing secrets, and unfiltered chaos, plus the tools to turn your work into a world fans can’t quit.
Because readers buy books. But fandoms buy everything.
The Feral Fandoms Podcast
From Monster-of-the-Week to Fandom Juggernaut: Supernatural’s 15-Season Evolution
Two writers who love fandom and hate sloppy endings sit down to unpack how Supernatural morphed from a gritty monster-of-the-week into a 15-season cultural juggernaut. We talk about why the Winchesters became comfort TV, how the show’s self-aware humor and meta episodes (hello, The French Mistake and Fan Fiction) built trust, and the parasocial magic that Jared, Jensen, and Misha nurtured through cons, charity, and behind-the-scenes chaos. If you’ve ever stayed with a show for the banter more than the plot, you’ll feel seen.
We also wade straight into the Destiel debate: the soldier-and-angel chemistry, the slow-burn subtext that launched a hundred thousand AO3 fics, and the heartbreak of a confession with no payoff. From queerbaiting to the kill-your-gays trope, we break down why that ending stung—and what storytellers can learn from it. This is a masterclass in UST, reader trust, and how archetypes thrive when you complicate them: grumpy/sunshine, cynic/naif, power/mercy. We pull craft takeaways you can use today, including a simple “one beat early” scene strategy to hook readers between chapters.
Beyond canon, we celebrate the fandom’s resilience: how community, memes, and fix-it fiction repaired what the finale fractured. Expect practical writing insights, fandom lore, and a few irreverent detours that feel like late-night con hallway chats. Hit play if you care about Supernatural, storytelling, or the delicate art of delivering on a long-promised slow burn.
Enjoyed this one? Subscribe, leave a review, and share with your favorite hunter or angel. Then hop into our Discord or Patreon to drop your hottest SPN take and your best Destiel gif.
Want the uncut chaos + bonus episodes? Join us inside the cult at Patreon.com/TheBurnedOutMuse. Or find everything else (Discord, socials, freebies) at linktr.ee/theburnedoutmuse.
No, okay. Now we're good. All right. So, but yeah. We're not even on camera. See me. I know. God, that's the worst part. Is who and your mom was talking about how we're always looking at ourselves when we are FaceTiming. Yeah, don't you? Especially now that I know I make all these stupid fucking faces.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. My husband said to me one time on a face on a video chat, I have a question for you. Who's the big picture right now and who's the little picture? And I said, I think you know the answer. Who is the big picture?
SPEAKER_01:You're the visual whole. I'm the prize. Sir, I'm always the big picture.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly. Well, what are we talking about today? Oh, should we do the intro? Oh, hang on. Wait, tell me what we're talking about and then we'll do the intro. Am I? We're talking about supernatural.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:All of a sudden it just started doing these weird little lines. You know, when you see somebody talking and it shows the yeah, all of a sudden you disappeared and it was just the I could see you talking, but I couldn't see you.
SPEAKER_00:I disintegrated. I am now but a voice.
SPEAKER_01:You're the voice in the machine.
SPEAKER_00:The least favorite thing of me talking. Well, no, you know what? People are listening to us talk. So let me not say that. And you are listening, it turns out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no shit. We're up to over 1300 downloads. Wait, we we haven't done the intro. Well, I'm talking about this because this is gonna be all of our extra for the podcast or for the Patreon.
SPEAKER_00:Patreons like to hear us.
SPEAKER_01:Gibble gabble. Oh my gosh, I know. And I didn't edit any of the stuff that I put up on Patreon. So they got every like, um, huh? Us repeating ourselves, it's so bad. I feel so sorry for them. I never realized how much I say like, like, like.
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, uh, see, like. I was like, why do I keep saying like? And then I was like, stop saying like. Um, you know what I mean? That's us. We drag our vowels too, it turns out, because I tried to listen to pop-ups, but I can't listen to my own voice.
SPEAKER_01:Because I'm like, and then uh like remember when I used to make fun of Paris Hilton because she lazy talked? Like, that's me. Oh my god, it's so hot. Like now that's us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm getting whiter somehow every day.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know how it keeps it in this economy. I didn't even think I could get any whiter. Look at me. I'm practically see-through. Yet somehow I'm getting white. Yeah, but you're not cracking though.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. We're skin. I'm starting to I'm starting to see it. No, you're doing great.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yes, we're talking about supernatural.
SPEAKER_00:Have you I don't know much about it. I do have a general idea of supernatural. I get that they're brothers, there's a hot angel guy, but they're not gay for each other. We'll save it for the podcast. All right.
SPEAKER_01:So I brought notes this time because I don't want to forget nothing.
SPEAKER_00:We're getting better, guys. I know look at us. We're a professional podcast.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we used to do this. We used to do this three or four in one day. But no one was only 40 people were listening.
SPEAKER_00:I know the pressure was really off back then.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Why did we tell anybody we were actually making this podcast?
SPEAKER_00:We did, and they were, that's nice, sweetheart.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, exactly. But now I have people who care about what I have to say. Weird. And I'm along for the ride. Okay, so I will officially introduce us 321. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Feral Phantoms Podcast. This is episode number four. And today we will be talking about supernatural. I'm only James, gay romance author, well, writer of gay romances, bisexual author, and guru, educator, okay, mother of dragons. No.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm here with Shannon Iselle, who is I have very far less attributes to my name, which I don't think that's true. I am her bodyguard. I'm her personal assistant. I'm your bookshipper, customer service lady. Shop manager. Shop manager, there we go. I don't know what whatever she wants me to be. The podcast house, she calls me and I say, Yes, mommy, whatever you want.
SPEAKER_01:She stands next to me at signings and glares at people and says things like, You could take a picture with her, but don't tag her in it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then she's like, Why do you keep telling people to take pictures with me? And I'm like, because they want to take your pictures with you. Which is so weird.
SPEAKER_01:Imagine if my teenage self could have ever heard that people want to take pictures with me, they wouldn't believe it. They wouldn't believe it. Yeah, I still don't believe it at all.
SPEAKER_00:Teenage U is a bitch. So I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:So teenage you was a bitch too. Okay. Let's not get it twisted. We were all none of us made it through our teen years without being absolute nightmares. I think some people did. But I think we're just trying to make ourselves feel better. Nobody in our family. I'm sure other people were nice. We were not nice. Some people loved their teenage years.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know who those people are, but someone I just caught myself saying editors.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, don't worry. I get rid of all of those. They probably the people who see, listen to us.
SPEAKER_00:Like ah, like ah, like ah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, like, like, like the people who listen to us on the on any other platform but Patreon, they don't have to deal with all the likes and the ums. So don't worry. You're welcome. You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Still sign up for Patreon though.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, please sign up for Patreon. There's all kinds of good stuff on there. Lots of likes and ums. Lots of likes and ums. And if that's not your thing, you could go to the Discord where you don't have to hear us, but you can still talk about fan stuff. Yeah, this isn't required. It's not required. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:And a lot of you are listening, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01:And a lot of you are signing up for Patreon, which is even crazier. And thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Daddy. Oh, we thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Daddy. Thank you, Daddy.
SPEAKER_00:What's are we talking about today? What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01:We are talking about supernatural. I even wore my Winchester shirt. Supernatural shirt. So here we go. I'm gonna be so self-conscious about it now. Editors, that's you. Yeah. So Supernatural lasted for 15 seasons.
SPEAKER_00:Jesus.
SPEAKER_01:Which is crazy. And I don't know how many people know this, but it was only supposed to be five. When Eric Kripke originally created Supernatural, he said five seasons and we're done. And then I think it's season number four. I think four is when we introduced Castiel, and then it shifted the whole project trajectory of the show. It used to be kind of a monster of the week thing, kind of like how the X-Files used to be Monster of the Week, and then all of a sudden it became about aliens.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they like capture supernatural things and they're hot. And they're brothers and they're not gay.
SPEAKER_01:Unless, of course, you're on AO3, in which case they are very gay.
SPEAKER_00:They're not even gay for the angel guy. I only know because the TikTok edits. They're not gay for the guy.
SPEAKER_01:No, they're definitely gay for the angel. Dean and Castiel are the Destial ship that most people talk about. The other ship that most people talk about are Sam and Dean together, which is why they call it Wincest. Hey, look, I'm not yucking anybody else. When Game of Thrones does it, it's fine. When the Winchester boys do it, it's taboo. That's because, you know, the Winchester boys aren't rich and they don't have dragons. So there's no dragons? I was gonna watch it, but if there's no dragons. No, there's no dragons. But yeah, it went from Monster of the Week to Saving the World. I started to watch Supernatural when it first came out. I watched the first three episodes, and then it's alright.
unknown:You know?
SPEAKER_01:WB. I think it was the WB at first, and then it became the CW. So it's it was on CW. Which is so funny. CW. God, they have some of the craziest shows, but they really knew how to turn it out. Yeah, they really did. We but yeah, I watched the first few episodes. I was not that into it. Mostly because I knew Jared Padalecki from Gilmore Girls. Who's that? Jared Padalecki is the one who plays Sam, the tall one. He's like 6'6. Okay. Yeah. And he played Rory's boyfriend in Gilmore Girls. And not for nothing, but he was kind of a douchebag.
SPEAKER_00:So oh that that's our first boyfriend, right? The one that wanted to like dress up like a 1950s.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and she loses her virginity to him when he's married. So crazy. Yeah. We'll get into Gilmore Girls another day because my mother was obsessed with Gilmore girls. Yeah. But yeah, it's okay. And you know how I am about supernatural shows. I love anything supernatural. Your mom and I used to watch X-Files. We used to watch that American gothic show that nobody remembers existing except me and my mom.
SPEAKER_00:I remember it. I was a child.
SPEAKER_01:I went back and tried to watch it. I found it on YouTube, and it is so bad. It is so bad. It is cringe-worthy bad. And not in a twilight way, but in a how did this get greenlit by Hollywood way?
SPEAKER_00:It was so I remember they were southern and they killed the little girl, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What Salem was is what they wanted to be. You know what I mean? The show Salem, which was so dark. Mick loved that show, but it was too raunchy for me. It was like too gory. I couldn't get past all the yeah. No, sorry. I I don't have the stomach for it anymore now that I'm not nursing. I don't just don't have the stomach for it. But yeah, I wasn't really into Supernatural until I don't know, 10 years ago. I went back and I was bored and I was at home and they were doing reruns. And I just started watching the reruns, and I realized how fucking funny that show is. It is really one of the best, it's the most memed show ever. They say Supernatural has a gift for everything, and they're not lying. And if you ever have been on Tumblr, it doesn't matter what fandom, it doesn't matter what's happening, there will always be a supernatural fan who's got a gif, a meme, something that fits that occasionally.
SPEAKER_00:I've seen him around and I'm not in it. I've seen him. I know a lot about the show. I've never watched it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's yeah, because it's just one of those things that's now ingrained in culture. Anybody who's our age definitely knows it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I started watching it, and it becomes a comfort show. And I think that's why it lasted as long as it did, because it got to a point where I didn't even care what the storyline was that week. I only cared that I got to see them and I got to hear their snarky comments and their stupid little jokes. And then I started getting into the behind the scenes stuff. Because if you think Supernatural's funny, their bloopers and their behind the scenes are crying. You're laughing so hard. Because it's three guys who are best friends in real life. And they get to goof off all day long in a job where they just get to go and hang out with their buddies. So it really didn't matter to them what the story lacked was. Because they got to good work and prank each other.
SPEAKER_00:It makes them more wanting to watch when people are involved in that. Because I know I like that. Like when I know they're enjoying what they're doing, that makes me want to watch.
SPEAKER_01:You feel like you're part of it when you see the behind the scenes. And I think that's why with authors, they say that parasocial relationships are super important. When your readers like you as a person, they will support you in all your endeavors. They'll download 1300 times just to make sure that your podcast does well, just because they like you as a person. Yeah, it's true. A lot of people don't want to be on camera like me, and a lot of people don't want to go to cons, they don't want to be seen. And I get that, but meeting your readers and interacting with them, even just on Patreon. I use my Patreon like a diary sometimes. If you saw some of the self-absorbed whining I do to my patrons, and they're just girl, oh God, oh yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:When you've never lost into your Patreon, I'm scared of them.
SPEAKER_01:When I found out I was on that banned book list, I was just like, guys, listen. I really just like unloaded on.
SPEAKER_00:How did I get on that list? I just simply let everyone know how much I fucking hate MAGA every day of my life. And they put me on a list.
SPEAKER_01:And I was really proud of that list until like the death threat stuff started. And then I was like, you know, being on a list kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, the Nazis don't like me. I know what side of history I'll be on.
SPEAKER_01:Remember when we all agreed that we hated Nazis? Wasn't that a good time?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was bipartisan.
unknown:Bipartisan.
SPEAKER_01:It used to be the one thing we could all agree on.
SPEAKER_00:Not a political podcast, by the way, but it always does a little well.
SPEAKER_01:We don't like Nazis. Well, when you talk about supernatural, you kind of have to get a little political because there's nobody more political than Misha Collins who plays Castel. Oh my God. I once had a dream I was married to him, and I woke up so sad that I wasn't. And I'm not lying. I was depressed when I woke up and realized that that had just been a dream. He's my ideal for sure.
SPEAKER_00:I wonder if he had the same dream.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, I did not.
SPEAKER_00:I did not think Misha Collins was at home dreaming about a fat red. No, I totally find her. You're his Cinderella. He's looking for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can't imagine what it is he's trying to put on. My big ass feet. Well, actually, my feet are probably dainty compared to the other girls in our family, but you know, we won't be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I like how you didn't specifically call me out. Well, because Shannon Mikhaila has big feet too.
SPEAKER_01:I always tell her you can find yeah, you can find your shoes in the drag queen stores. They make big size shoes, especially high heels.
SPEAKER_00:You're a everybody stop supporting her. She's a foot shamer. Heard of fat shaming? What have you heard of? Foot shaming. Yeah. I could control how big my feet got. I would fall over if I didn't have big feet. I'm six foot tall. Not a foot podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01:No, you have to pay for extra for that. If you want to see our feet, you can join the Patreon and request it. We're not above that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:My PayPal is.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, a couple of weeks ago, Amisha Collins did a dramatic reading of that Trump letter to Epstein on his look that up when we get off. Yeah, no, he totally did. He's very, very political. But another reason that it went so well, and again, it's that parasocial relationship. Misha Collins had a dedicated phone number where supernatural fans could text him if they were having a bad day.
SPEAKER_00:Swear to God, he had your K-pop boys.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But he would talk directly to people. He would talk to them. And when they started charging him for the phone calls for the longest time, he paid it. He just paid it. But then when it got to be too much, he crowdsourced the money to keep the number.
SPEAKER_00:Because he didn't want him right now.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I don't know. I haven't looked it up. But if anybody could, if you could get a hold of any celebrity, it would probably be Misha Collins.
SPEAKER_00:I text Misha. I don't know. 1-800 Misha.
SPEAKER_01:But he's got a really interesting backstory because for the longest time, he was actually living in a tent with his wife while while he built their house. So like by hand? Yeah. And he only wore clothes that fans sent him. He didn't like go out and buy fancy clothes. He just wears that's why sometimes you'll see him and he's wearing jeans that have holes in them because he's been wearing them for so long. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about fashion. He doesn't care about any of that stuff. He's very much, he has Gish West, uh Gish Wes, which is or Gish, Gish Wish. Oh my gosh. It basically it's a scavenger hunt, a global scavenger hunt that he puts on. And you can create teams and you can participate by doing all of the little things that they require of you. And it's a charity thing that he does. And it blew up into this huge thing for years. And I don't know if he still does it, but for a long time he did it. And it was like the great American scavenger hunt or something like that. And at the end, do you find him? Oh, I'm which I would have signed up. I would have signed up if that was the case.
SPEAKER_00:Bring it back, Misha.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know. But yeah, Misha Collins is his wife actually wrote a book on his ex-wife now, wrote a book on swinging. Okay. Yeah. So one time Charlie No. Charlie Sheen once made this because he's such a scumbag, Charlie Sheen, but he made this comment. I wrote the book on swinging or whatever. And Misha Collins responded, actually, my wife wrote the book on swinging.
SPEAKER_00:The link to her book. So they're swingers? So there's a chance.
SPEAKER_01:There's a chance. Well, they're divorced, so he's single as far as I know. Though he's been hanging out with this guy who's been his friend for a long time, who kind of just blew up. He had a film that went, I think the Cannes Film Festival. So like he's kind of been hanging out a lot with this one particular guy. And he hasn't really made it like a secret that he doesn't seem to really care about gender much. He's very LGBTQ friendly.
SPEAKER_00:But ally.
SPEAKER_01:And possibly adjacent. He might just be the LGBTQ. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Not a Misha Collins podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's not. But I do love Misha, so I'm going to talk about him because I just I adore him and I love how he actually cares about the people who come to the cons and everything. But honestly, Jerry Padalecki and Jensen Accles are the same way. They almost invented these show cons because Supernatural has cons that is just for Supernatural fans. And the fans put it together and then they get the actors to come and be on panels. And Jensen Accles sings sometimes. Amisha Collins sings sometimes. They oh can you still hear me?
SPEAKER_00:I can hear you.
SPEAKER_01:They disconnected your video. Oh, there you are. It says I'm unstable. Oh no, my connection is unstable.
SPEAKER_00:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:I was like, I know, but hey.
SPEAKER_00:We really need reminding right now. We know. My therapist says I'm fine. Apparently, join the Patreon and they know all about it. They're like, quick, download the podcast. Download it.
SPEAKER_01:That's my personal Patreon, my only James Patreon, by the way. You don't have to listen to me whine on the Phantom Podcast. What about the Pharaoh Phantoms? Okay, you can listen to Shannon whine on the Pharaoh Phantoms podcast page. I can still see you even. But yeah, so they really created that whole parasocial relationship where they didn't have a lot of boundaries with their fans. They would their fans would come up to them and be like, Can we prom pose? You know, and they'd be like, sure. And they'll do the prom pose where they're like chest to back and have their arms around them.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes they put this on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Sometimes it would be Jared and Jensen, and then them in the middle. Silly little things like a girl's husband would stand off to the side and she'd be being dipped by Jensen Ackles and he would have a mad face. It was just really funny and cute. And they tell Jensen Ackles is the best storyteller. Well, him and Misha Collins both. They tell these stories, real stories, about things that happen in their lives, but they're just such good storytellers that even when it sounds almost self-absorbed, you're so engrossed in the way they tell the stories that you're just okay, and then what happened? And they're funny. And you can get away with so much when you're funny. You know that. I know that.
SPEAKER_00:And they're hot. They're funny and hot. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Jensen Ackles is absolutely ideal. He is beautiful. Misha Collins is still my number one, but Jensen Ackles is not bad. Not bad at all. And I'm sure people are in the home screaming, how dare you! He's punching me out right now.
SPEAKER_00:No, fuck you, Misha.
SPEAKER_01:But Jensen and Jared, from the time they started the podcast, they lived together for the longest time until they got married to their respective partners.
SPEAKER_00:They were roommates.
SPEAKER_01:They were roommates. And there was definitely a lot of talk in the beginning. That's weird. But they say they're brothers. They both are from Texas. They're both, you know. But then Jared gets in trouble a lot for running his mouth. He has a tendency to say shit that really pisses people off. And that goes to the Destial shipper thing. I don't know when Destiel officially kicked off. Obviously, it had to be after he showed up in season four, clearly. I didn't notice it at first, but when I started, like I said, I was a steric fanfic reader. We're gonna talk about Teen Wolf next, so prepare yourselves, guys, because I got a lot to say. Google it. I don't know. But he they really leaned in to the Castile Dean thing because it was easy to do.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-oh. You gotta tap your mic, baby.
SPEAKER_01:God damn it. This stupid mic, I hate it.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, stop trying to put it down your throat, and then we'll be okay.
SPEAKER_01:And this is why we are not a visual podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Not a blowjob podcast yet.
SPEAKER_01:But again, for money. There's a patrons. But yeah, so the steric fandom led me to the Destial fandom. And I read some of the fanfics, and at first I was like, oh, I get it. People are fantasizing about it, whatever. But then when I went back and I rewatched the show, like for the 900th time, I was like, oh no, this is deliberate subtext. 100%. They leaned into this Dean and Cast thing. And this is what you have to be careful with when it comes to the unresolved sexual tension, which is great. The 90s lived for unresolved sexual tension. It's always like Mulder and Scully from X-Files. We we spent what nine seasons being like, are they ever gonna fuck? What the hell?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and so it was good, but if they don't get that payoff at some point, it just especially when it comes to two men, then it's just queer baiting. And unfortunately, we get that a lot in a lot of different shows. And especially it was supernatural, where it's Dean's character is a super macho, extra manly, got it, always a womanizer, always never wants to be in a relationship for long. And I don't know if you've known any closeted gay men. There's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of similarities in how a lot of these guys behave when it comes to women because they're trying to compensate for the fact that they're gay and they don't want to be. But yeah, so they just leaned more and more into it to the point where they actually started getting in on the joke. They have an episode called The French Mistake, where Sam and Dean get shoved into their real lives. And so in the episode, there Jensen and Misha and Jared, you see their real wives, you see like the real people who are behind the show, Robert Singer and all these people. Everybody's playing themselves, but in an alternate universe. But the alternate universe is their real lives. Okay. And the whole show is an over-exaggeration of their real lives. Jared Padalecki and his wife are raising emus, which is not true. But like, and the whole joke is wow, you're a real douchebag in this life. They're constantly making fun of each other and their real lives. But then they have another episode way in the future called fanfiction, and they go to a high school that's putting on a supernatural musical. And in the show, Sam or Dean and Cass end up together.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. So they knew it. They knew it. I have a question for you. Is there any actual romantic interests while they're playing this up in the background? Are these boys cracking chicks or what are they doing?
SPEAKER_01:I mean in the show or in real life? In the show. There's never any women. There's in the early seasons, they said get out of here, girls. In the early seasons, there was a few girls that cycled through, but nobody ever stuck around for long because they realized that nobody was in it for the girls. And they kill off every fucking woman in the show. If you like a girl, she's dead. Sorry, that's just the rules. It's very game of thrones. And there was a huge, huge backlash when they killed off a character named Charlie. This girl. I can't remember who plays her. Felicia Day, I think, plays her. And everybody loved her. She was a lesbian, she was a gamer girl, and she helped them constantly. And oh, she was a hacker. She was just that really cool girl that everybody wishes they were, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, another character, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And they killed her off in the worst conceivable way. It backfired on them so bad that they brought back an alternate version of her.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. That's the good thing about supernatural being the name. We can you can't.
SPEAKER_01:Because they do kill them off so often and then bring them back with Sam and Dean died probably eight times throughout the whole thing. I think Cass died three times and came back. Bobby dies and comes back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and that's the thing. At the very end of the show, when people do start dying for real finale, that's when you kind of go, I can't believe they ended it like this. This is such bullshit. But Supernatural created fanfiction in a way, and people are raging right now. That's not fucking true. But there's over a hundred thousand Destial fics. That's a lot of people who were shipping Cass and Dean together.
SPEAKER_00:And when you watch the show, one of the only things I knew about the show at the beginning of this podcast, I was like, right, the angel and the brother, they're doing it, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so when that fanfic episode came up and they end up together, and it's two girls playing them. So they're lesbians, but they're playing Cass and Dean. And so the girl who's this really uptight chick, and she plays the director, and she's a high school girl, and she's just and one of the lines is well, you can't spell subtext without butt sex. I'm like, What? Yeah, so she lets it hang there, and he's just and so of course Sam is teasing him through the whole car ride because he's why is it Destial and not this? And why is it not Sam and Castill? And why is it not Sam? And then he says, wait till you find out about the windcest or something to that effect. And he's like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah, no, it's really, really funny. But it's a musical, so be prepared because they do burst into song.
SPEAKER_00:I've been doing it. I like a good I like a good singing moment. So they became self-aware essentially.
SPEAKER_01:They had no problems breaking the fourth wall. And I think when you do that well, your audience will just go along with you. If you've built that trust, you know. And I think they were just happy they even acknowledged the whole Destill thing. And they played it up at cons and stuff. Misha Collins and Jensen Accles are very good sports about it. They think it's great, they take pictures together, they do all of the things, especially if it's charity. They're very down to help whoever. And that's kind of where things got a little dicey because Jared Padalecki. Came out very strongly about Dean's not gay, Cass isn't gay, not overtly saying fuck Desti L, but you know, is this the writer?
SPEAKER_00:Is he the writer?
SPEAKER_01:Sam is Jared Padelecki is the brother, Sam.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, oh. Well, no. He's the one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so come on, sorry to. Well, no, I'm just I don't want to piss anybody off, but at the same time, I want to be honest. And okay, so the show ends when COVID hits. And because of that, they had a lot of restrictions on how they could film. And so Misha Collins went to the director and was like, I think when Castile gets killed for the final time, he should tell Dean he loves him, like he's in love with him. And the director was like, Oh, I don't know if we can do that. And then he went to Jensen, like, how do you feel about this? And he's like, Fuck it, yeah, let's do it. Great, you know. So the scene is Cass sacrifices himself for Dean. But before he does, he gives a speech that has everybody in tears, including Jensen, basically telling him, You're not the failure your dad says you were. You know, you don't have to prove yourself to anybody. All the shit that a big tough guy has probably wanted to hear from their actual father for years, you know. And he just gave him permission to just not be this super macho dude or whatever. And then he dies. He sacrifices himself to save Dean. And Dean's devastated, but he just keeps thinking he's gonna come back, you know. Right. Yeah, exactly. But it it doesn't happen this time. And then they just gloss over, what do you call it? Anticlimactic, you know what I mean? Here's this big gay, I love you, and then you kill him. So he does do that. He says, I love you, Dean. Well, that's also debated because in the translated version he says, I love you. In the non-translated version, I don't think he actually says the words exactly, I love you.
SPEAKER_00:But it was very clear it was a declaration of love or whatever, like romantic love, too.
SPEAKER_01:Very romantic, yeah. And then it brought up the kill your gaze trope, which is something that people are so fucking tired of. And I didn't realize, but kill your gaze is an actual film thing that this man in the 60s created that said, You can show deeply flawed characters, and these are his words, not mine. So they can be gay, they can be whores, they can be drug addicts, but you have to kill them in the end. They have to be morally punished. Should just describe my 20s. Me too. Please don't kill me, Mr. Director. Yeah, so but they had to die. They had to so that you could say, yes, they live this life, but it's very immoral and you shouldn't do it. And then they die. And then they die. And this is something that has been going on in film and television for so long that it's like people always talk about queer joy and love victor or young royals, like all of these shows where you get people who are gay and happy and not dead.
SPEAKER_00:And it's the LGBTQ. Or in your books, the gays are gonna kill you. Exactly. They're coming for you. You and you, they're gonna get ya.
SPEAKER_01:They don't care if you're gay or straight. If you're a shithead, they're going to kill you.
SPEAKER_00:They're going to kill you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they're gonna kill you. And they my readers demand that somebody die at the end of every book. More murder.
SPEAKER_00:More murder, book lady. So the last, right?
SPEAKER_01:The last episode of Supernatural, uh, first off, Dean, they kill off Dean too, in the stupidest way fucking possible. And that pissed a lot of people off, too. Because he literally gets shoved against some sharp object and gets impaled and dies. And after 15 seasons of monster hunting, he gets taken out by a rusty fucking nail. You know, people were, how dare you? How dare you do this to Dean Winchester? But in the last episode, they bring back pretty much everybody. They show Sam going on, he gets married, he has kids, but you never see who the wife is, you never really see the kids. You just see him living to an old age, and then you see them reuniting, like in heaven or whatever, but you never see Cass. They imply that Cass is there, but you don't see him. And they said it's because of COVID regulations they couldn't have Misha on the set, yada yada. And people were, that's weird because you have everybody else on the set, but you don't have Misha on the set. That sort of thing. And I'm sure there are people right now who are gonna listen to this podcast and be like, you're getting it all wrong. And if I am, I'm sorry. I am not an expert by any means on supernatural. I am more a casual fan who just happens to know a lot of the lore through Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00:But also, don't listen. But yeah, so Supernatural really they figured out a way to make the show almost secondary to the love people had for Jared and Jensen and Misha.
SPEAKER_01:They were willing to support them in almost anything because again, the show was so self-aware of how ridiculous it was, and it did get ridiculous towards the end. I think there's an episode titled Chris Angel is a douchebag.
SPEAKER_00:Is he? He probably is. And they just have things that are just fun, and they know that we're just not everything has to be that D. Exactly. And don't get me started because Taylor Swift just put out Life of a Showgirl and everyone's hating on it. And I just want everyone to know something right motherfucking out. Is it a little cheesy? Yes. Is she saying dick a lot? Fine, okay. Let did she write a whole song called Wood about Travis Kelsey's penis? Yes. But you can't be a tortured poet forever, everyone. Okay, you can't.
SPEAKER_01:What happens when you're not depressed anymore?
SPEAKER_00:She has never gotten dick like this before. She told me her my close personal friend Taylor Shook told me in that song Have y'all ever fucked a six foot seven dude? Because what? Um I'm happy for her.
SPEAKER_01:I have fucked a six foot seven dude. I was not at all impressed. To the point where he knew I wasn't going to be impressed, and he tried to warn me in advance, and I did not take the warning. Anyway. No, it's definitely not. And I'm sorry if I'm hurting the two men who listens feelings. Not really. Not a dick podcast, but we're probably gonna talk about a lot of dicks on this podcast, but not in the literal sense.
SPEAKER_00:My husband barely knows that I'm even on a podcast, apparently. So I could talk about the podcast. Oh my god, I know. He was like, oh, are you guys podcasting again? I've talked to him at almost at nauseam about it. Isn't that crazy? He's like, Yeah, but I wasn't sure if it was the other podcast or this podcast. Yeah. Not a prelude to my divorce podcast. Yet.
SPEAKER_01:Dot dot dot.
SPEAKER_00:Not two divorces. I can't do it. I'm not fucking Elizabeth Taylor going for my third husband. My ex is on his fifth wife, so Michael?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh, sorry. The editors. I don't care. Fuck him. I'll give you a social security number. I still remember it. Anyway. But so after Supernatural ended, most fan fiction writers ran to AO3 to fix the ending. They were like, you guys suck at this. Clearly, we tried to let you handle it, but you were wrong. You did it all wrong, so we're gonna fix it. And they did. And they wrote amazing like stories about the ending and how it should have gone. And they did a such a great job of fixing it that I almost feel like they should have just left it to the fans to write the ending.
SPEAKER_00:I think fans feel like that about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it we're gonna get into that in the Teen Wolf episode because the fans did take over at one point, and we'll get into that. But I think we're gonna do a ship of the week, which obviously in this episode would be a segment? A segment.
SPEAKER_02:A segment?
SPEAKER_00:A segment look at us like a real podcast. Oh, ship of the week. I like it. Break it down for me. What are we doing?
SPEAKER_01:Well I wanted to discuss the tropes and the psychology behind it, and it's the soldier and the angel. You know, you've got the grizzled bad boy and the guy who's almost too good, the angel, and he becomes more human. But the nice thing about supernatural was even the angel was flawed. Like he got to a point where he was, I'm obviously the only moral person here, so now I have to be God. And then he became God, and he became very much a not nice god. Not that the god in supernatural's name is Chuck. That's definitely God's name.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, if she was a man, because she's not, but she's not.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, Chuck is God in Supernatural, and he was a real dick, and he basically said, I'm done with y'all. You do whatever the fuck you want. You suck. And he just left everybody to fend for themselves. So when Misha decides he's gonna be God, he quickly backslides into not good guy territory, but that doesn't last long. But yeah, so it's the soldier and the angel, and the fact that Dean is so cynical and Cass is so naive because he's never lived on Earth. So everything is completely new to him, and so everything is literal to him, and that's what makes it funny is the juxtaposition of the cynical guy and the naive one. It's the sunshine grumpy trope that everybody loves, it's the sarcastic one with the brooding one. It's done over and over again, and we can't get enough of it. That's why romance is so great. Because you can beat a trope into the ground and people will thank you for it. We put this is a trope in our stories, where anywhere else they're just oh, tropes. No, you want to stay away from those. You want to be different, you want to be unique, you want to be this. There's nothing unique or different. There's just everything under the sun has been done before. It's just how you put your own spin on it now.
SPEAKER_00:People like the banter, and it's the way you write it, you know. So not everybody can do it, obviously, because I've read some bad books.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I mean, I think we've all read some really bad books, but but I'll still read it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I took notes last night. I was gonna be really good about this, but the archetype clash, the soldier in the angel, and then the tension again, the unresolved sexual tension for nine, ten seasons is that's it's so good because even though you know they'll never go there, you go, but what if they did? You know, what if they did? And that keeps you on the edge and it keeps you going. But I will say if you're a writer and you're going to keep your two main characters apart, you gotta put them together in the end. Because if you do like Supernatural did and you have a big love confession and then you kill your character, it's not gonna go well for you. And I will tell you this from just seeing backlash from other author friends. Once you break your reader's trust, you're not getting it back. You kill off a favorite character, you don't give them the happily ever after in a romance, you kill off one of your characters in a romance novel. Isn't that not technically a romance then? Because there's definitely not, yeah. There's no that's exactly the the where everybody was going with this. But also, you know, if you're a straight woman, don't use gay men to like work through whatever your fucking issues are. Just saying. So again, if you break a reader's trust, you by all means do the unresolved sexual tension. If you're especially in romanticy, book two, they don't even see each other. All they do is talk about each other for an entire book, and then they get back together in book three. It's it's a romanticy trope to this at this point. Yeah, I'm into it. Yeah, by all means, but just know that if you don't get them together, you're gonna break your reader's trust, and then they're not gonna read anything else by you. Even if you come back and you're like, guys, I've learned my lesson. I will tell you this. I was, I don't know, maybe 15, and my sister Tammy used to read all the bodice rippers. You know, the old school historical romances. And I used to read them too, because I used to steal my sister's mom and my grandmother's book.
SPEAKER_00:Those covers were scandalous as a child. Scandalous.
SPEAKER_01:Mother, like one of my f sisters' favorite authors wrote a book, and the girl was accused of being a witch. And her and the guy, her boyfriend or whatever, the love interest, are in a wagon and they are racing towards a cliff. And Tammy's, oh, at any minute, they're going to not go over the edge. And then the writer kills them off, Felmal and Louise style. They go off the edge, and that's the end of the story, and they die. She never picked up another book by that author. She was, and she loved this author. She was devastated. And she just said, No, never again. Never reading this person again. They ruined it, they ruined everything. It doesn't matter how famous you are or how much money you make, if you're not willing to never write another book again, then don't break your reader's trust by killing your gaze, by not fulfilling that unresolved sexual tension, by queer baiting. It's going to ruin everything you've worked so hard to put together. So that's my takeaway from the ship of the week is don't fuck it up, guys.
SPEAKER_00:Don't shit the bed. You got this. Authors.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, God. I feel like I've been giving a lecture for the last hour.
SPEAKER_00:That's the point, though. I think that's why we started the podcast. That's why they're listening.
SPEAKER_01:I know, but I feel like I don't give them enough helpful educational information. If you're a writer, what did they get out of this? You just did it. It was great.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks. I I was inspired. I was inspired not to shit the bat. And I I'm dyslexic. I can't write anything.
SPEAKER_01:So I will say, if you are a writer and you are listening to this, and you want to dive into the conversation on Discord, that would be awesome. We would love to hear what you have to say. And I do this thing on Patreon called a ritual dare. And at the end of all of my workbooks that I have for them that come out every Monday, which I haven't done for this Monday. Sorry, guys. Oh yeah, sorry. It's Wednesday. It's already done.
SPEAKER_00:Wednesday. I'm sure she did it. It's fine, guys. It's fine. Everything's fine. She did it.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, so I always give them a ritual dare, which is telling them, take your work in progress, do this, share it with us in the Discord or on Patreon. So for this week, I thought I would do it on the podcast. So if you're a writer and you want to share it with us, just pick a scene from your work in progress and just end it one beat earlier than you usually would to see if you can create that tension so you can kind of hook your readers into the next chapter because you really don't ever want to answer a question without creating another question. I was great at this when it came to my YA books. There was nobody better at that shit than me. I used to write my books like they were a movie of the week. I was always ending a chapter right when they were like, ah. And then I would move on to the next thing. I would put another person's POV that was like across town and make them wait for three more chapters before we got back.
SPEAKER_00:I hate it, but I love it because when I get to that, it'll be like some fucker who's getting healed in the different world and my main bitch is about to get killed. And then I'll be like, and anyway, Dorian still can't walk. Let's talk about that for the next 60 pages. Yeah. And that's what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01:So if you normally solve the problem before you move on to the next chapter, just end it a beat earlier. And if you want to share it in the podcast, in a podcast? No. In a Discord. Make your own podcast. Or make your own podcast. That's fine too. If you think I suck at this, just make your own podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Steal the idea.
SPEAKER_01:As easy as you think it is, guys. Steal the idea. Do it yourself. Exactly. But yeah, if you want to share it in the Discord, that would be great. You can either share it under the episode thread or if you want just positive feedback. We have a thread that's just hype me up. If you just can't handle the criticism like me, and you just want people to be like, bitch, that is the best thing I've ever fucking read. We have a thread for that too. Yeah, we have thread for everything. We have a thread for everything. Thread for everything. No, we really do. Everybody kept saying, What about a thread for this? So now in the Discord, there's 90 of them. But they're very well organized by no fault of my own. I have two admins that are very good at organizing these people. So they're easy to find. Well, because I suck at everything other than writing. And some people say I suck at writing. But not you.
SPEAKER_00:Not you, dear listener. You would never suck it.
SPEAKER_01:You guys are here for me, and I appreciate that. I think we should end it here though. And again, you can find us on Patreon, you can find us on Discord. You can rate, review, subscribe, download. All of that really helps us get seen, get more listeners. I almost said readers.
SPEAKER_00:Read every single thing that you guys have said about us.
SPEAKER_01:I not only read it, I screenshotted it and sent it to Shannon, and then I used it in our social media. We appreciate every comment you guys give us. I like being in your ears. And I did create a social media for the actual feral phantoms podcast. So if you want to look for that, that would be great. All of our stuff is brought to you basically by the Burned Out Muse, which is my sister company that does all of the things. So if you see the Burned Out Muse, follow that too. I have a lot of good writing advice on there, or I will. And I think that's it for today. We're talking about Teen Wolf next time. And again, Shannon's like, I have no fucking idea who Teen Wolf is.
SPEAKER_00:Is that cool? Are we cool with that, guys? Let me know because I don't know what's going on. Wait till the Taylor Swift episode, okay? Because I'm gonna lost. Then I'll be sitting here being like, uh-huh. She got her master's back. Oh, well, it's a Taylor Swift listening party, okay? And I'm gonna break down for you why it's not a one-dimensional album. Okay, Life of the Showgirl is good. And if you don't like fun, and if you don't like whimsy, and if you don't want to get a little hot girl, white girl drunk sometimes and just dance and talk about dick, then that's your problem.
SPEAKER_01:And on that note, we'll see you next week, guys.
SPEAKER_00:Great week. Bye.
