The Feral Fandoms Podcast

Two Fans Trace How Boys’ Love Shapes Identity, Community, And Taste

• Onley James & Shannon Ezzell

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Ever wonder why the second couple feels like the real main event? We sit down with Peachy—guest relations director for CitrusCon and creator of Church of BL—to trace how Boys’ Love evolves from gateway ships to full-blown obsession, and why fandom keeps returning to dangerous tropes, exquisite art, and redemption arcs that actually land. From Inuyasha-era headcanons to AO3 as a badge of honor, we connect the dots between fanfiction, validation, and the joy of seeing your characters live rent-free in someone else’s brain.

We trade manhwa must-reads—Taming The Tiger, Bloodlink, Mania—and dissect the gravitational pull of BJ Alex and the hard line some of us drew with Jinx. Along the way, we talk ABO Desire’s scene-stealing side couple and what writers can learn when secondary arcs outshine the leads. Regional flavors matter too: Korean BL as the perfect palate cleanser with real chemistry and earned intimacy; Thai BL leveling up direction, consent, and storytelling while shedding dated language and fixable misunderstandings. It’s fandom as critique, craft as care, and a reminder that global audiences are pushing the genre forward.

The conversation turns personal—visual novels as interactive BL where “bad endings” can be delicious, trans joy in getting to “be the boy,” and how gender exploration often blooms inside these stories. We open up about neurodivergence, masking, EMDR therapy, and the comfort of narratives that let emotions run high without apology. Parasocial boundaries get equal airtime: shipping actors vs. characters, calling people readers not fans, and keeping Discord communities vibrant without burning out. By the end, you’ll have a stacked rec list, a sharper lens for consent and redemption, and a deeper sense of why BL feels like home to so many.

Love the show? Follow, rate, and share it with a friend who has second couple syndrome. Drop your spiciest manhwa rec or your favorite redemption arc in the comments—what should we cover next?

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SPEAKER_01:

Hey everybody, this is a special episode of the Feral Fandoms Podcast. I am here solo without Shannon. She had a childcare crisis. We are here to break down all kinds of fandom stuff revolving around BL, which is great because Shannon doesn't know anything about BL and I'm dying to talk to somebody about it. Welcome!

SPEAKER_00:

Hello. Tell everybody who you are. I'm Peachy. I am the guest slash sponsor, director, guest relations director for CitrusCon, a boys' love virtual 18 convention. And I also run something called the Church of BL, which is my own content creation stuff where I talk about debauchery and things like all of our favorite things. Love is my entire brand. Yeah, so I've read everything that Only's ever written. I'm kind of a simp. I have all of the audiobooks. Liam DeCosmo is a saint. Isn't he amazing? So it's it's really fun running a convention that you give a shit about because BL is my blood. It is what I'm made up of. And uh having a con for that, and that's like a good 30-40% of my life now.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's so much fun. Yeah, I had such a blast at Citrus Con. What was your gateway BL? What was the first BL you ever watched?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh god. The gateway drug was probably shipping in Inuyasha when I was a young'un. Um I am a piece of absolute garbage. So I would ship like Inuyasha Shoshomaru or Inuyasha and Koga. Um and that just grew into Googling things that I shouldn't be Googling at like 14. And then that kind of ended up going towards like Ginger Romantica and Gravitation, Sekai Chi Hatsukoi, like all of the the the classics. I was there with the Yowie paddle.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. How old do you think you were when you started getting into BL?

SPEAKER_00:

Like 14 or 15. I won't say what year that was because we have an age gap and I don't want you to think about it. An age gap? Yeah. You're much older. You're my wife's age, if that helps. Oh.

SPEAKER_01:

Would you like much older women?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a twiddle's hair.

SPEAKER_01:

A little bit of a gap. Yeah, you're definitely younger than me because I can't even remember seeing anything BL related as a child. Like, I don't even think I met somebody who was out of the closet until I was like 19. It wasn't now all of my friends are gay, so I don't even recognize straight people anymore.

SPEAKER_00:

I I've Except for the ones in my family. I feel like I find my people like all of our friends are all like neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, they're all neurodivergent and they're all gay. And so when I see straight, neurotypical people, I don't know how to function. I would say I was reading BL long before I started watching BL. I was definitely into Lazen and stuff later, but I don't even remember the first ship I started reading AO3, fanfiction.net. But the first BL I watched that wasn't a common US show was Kin Porsche. Not late to the game I was a good game.

SPEAKER_00:

That is that's a good one. I was in the game before Stuff Lesen and Webtoon and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01:

You were naming some stuff that I was like, oh wow.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't really get on AO3 until probably COVID, honestly. Before COVID, I wasn't really big on fanfiction until like COVID ruined me.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, I found fanfiction when my mom was sick. When my mom was in hospice, I stumbled onto of all things the most embarrassing thing in the world. Glee fanfiction. About that in in other episodes. Yeah, that's when I think I stumbled into AO3 specifically. Yeah. But yeah. I remember fanfiction.net. They were never as big. They're not AO3. AO3 just really exploded and just it had longevity. And I think that was probably because of Tumblr.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. AO3's gonna be at the con. Is it? Yeah. I think I can say that because I'm talking to them right now. But uh if not, you guys didn't hear anything. You heard nothing. You heard nothing. You can't be disappointed to us. But I have connections with the people that run AO3, and uh they're maybe possibly going to do a panel this year. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_01:

I think above all the things that really made me feel like an accomplished author, having people write fan fiction and putting it on AO3 was like my oh my god moment.

SPEAKER_00:

I need to find this.

SPEAKER_01:

It's there. There's quite a few of them. We're not talking like Destio levels of love, but there's way more than a little tiny author like me ever thought there would be.

SPEAKER_00:

That's amazing. I need to not only read this but write it. Why have I not done this already?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't read it because I don't want it to influence like my own storylines because sometimes it's the same reason I don't read gay romance anymore, is because I'm like, wow, they're way better at this than I am. It gets in my head too much. But I do look at it and oh look, look at that. I made that. And then Mulvaney Media, that fan account that runs like a lot of stuff. She'll always put up when somebody does a new fanfiction, they'll send it to her and she'll put it up on her account. And I'm like, that's so cool. That's yeah. Somebody asked me, they're like, Oh my god, are you okay with us writing fanfiction about your stuff? I'm like, please, please write fanfic. Yes, don't make money off of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that is the one downside.

SPEAKER_01:

Only because my entertainment attorney would shoot me in the face. I don't care. My attorneys do, but I don't give a shit. God, what are you watching right now? Are you watching anything? Are you reading anything? What's what do you what's good? What's good? I'm really into Monhua right now. Hurrying. Somebody's been sending me like recs, and I have not had a chance. I've between the podcast and writing and the stupid 13 nights of Halloween debacle that I'm going through that I thought was gonna be a good idea, is just so much work. Oh, but yeah, somebody keeps sending me all these good recs, and I'm like, I don't have time, but I want to read them. I'm like, I'm so behind on all the good stuff coming out.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm just gonna go through my recents on lessons. Oh my god, one of my favorite authors is called Brothers Without a Tomorrow. And they do, they're Korean, they do Manhua, and literally everything they've ever written is fantastic and perfect and amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Give me titles.

SPEAKER_00:

Smyrna Capri is one. Taming the Tiger is my favorite. Zero is a newer one, but there's some stuff going on with that one where we're not entirely certain if it's gonna get finished. So I'm kind of upset. Bloodlink is really good. One that you in particular would like based off of my parasocial relationship with you through your books is Mania. Oh, yeah, that sounds right up. You would definitely like Mania. It's gangsters and it actually sounds familiar. If you're into Monwa, you might have seen it. Yeah. It's it's very pretty, twisted ending.

SPEAKER_01:

I started with all of the typical Manoir, like Love is an illusion and the kind of tamer ones. Then I read BJ Alex, which was so toxic. Oh, yeah, and yet I could not put it down. Yeah, could not put it down. I was obsessed with it. I gave up on Jinx like season two. Yeah. I know he was so mean. I normally I can handle it, but I'm just like, I don't know. He was so physically mean. I'm waiting a little harder.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm waiting for it to be done because I like the redemption arc because that's where they're at right now is redeeming his bullshit.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and that's exactly what happened with BJ Alex. Yeah, is there always that turning point, and I just kept reading because I was like, at some point it's gonna turn and he's gonna turn into a total simp. And I just can't get there.

SPEAKER_00:

My favorite in BJ Alex is the other ship. The other ship, the other ship and BJ Alex. They're my favorite.

SPEAKER_01:

I I love it. 100 it's second ship syndrome for sure. And sometimes I wonder, because I'm obviously as an author, I think about it all the time. I'm like, how is it that we end up shipping the second couple so much harder than the first in a lot of series? And like, why did the second couple go so hard if they weren't the main couple? You know what I mean? Why didn't she develop the story or he and then just go, you know what? This story is way more juicy in the new Chinese BL, ABO Desire. First off, I have not read ABO Desire, I only watched it. And the guy I was watching it with kept calling him the psychotic twink. I've all seen one episode.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm moving off of like one episode of what I've seen.

SPEAKER_01:

I need to commit to it. Yeah. When I say this kid is unhinged, he's an enigma, which is fairly common. So I don't think I'm giving away any spoilers. Common knowledge, I should say. But yeah, he's like an enigma, and he ends up impregnating an alpha who does not realize he's an enigma. It's very toxic, it's a very old school BL. Like the second couple, their story is so much more juicy. He's an omega who's taking hormones to pretend to be a beta. He's in love with his boss who hates omegas. His boss is in love with him, but thinks he's a beta. And it's just like it's so much more juicy, but somehow we get 16 episodes of the main couple whose story gets resolved in ep nine. And I'm just like, who cares? Move this story, it is so much juicier. Why don't we call me scraps?

SPEAKER_00:

I was the same way with BJ Alex because I reread stuff all the time, and I'll just go back to only their episodes, only their chapters, especially their extras, the stuff that happened after the Manhua is quote unquote done.

SPEAKER_01:

Those are the best little side stories and the little like extras.

SPEAKER_00:

So good. It's so fucking good. Healthy, so good. Like they had a reasonably realistic BDSM relationship. They really did. It wasn't super crazy toxic awful, which I like super crazy toxic awful.

SPEAKER_01:

I am a different person when I'm reading fanfiction and when I'm reading any kind of manwall or manga. I'm a different person. I don't write it, but my god, do I mainline it? I don't know why, but I love it so much. It's so good. Yeah, it's juicy. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00:

It's good shit.

SPEAKER_01:

Trying to see some of the titles that I've finished. Do you want toxic monwan? Hit me with all of it. I'm down for all of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Red Mansion. Red Mansion is like almost like you need to be really disconnected from the couple in order to enjoy it because it's that toxic. It's that fucked up. It's like Stockholm Syndrome meets general abuser, like physically abused. It's very, very, very, very dark. Red Mansion is completed and it's really good. It's very toxic. Please don't at me like it's No, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't hold any listen. When I tell you the stuff that I have read, it's funny because I sound like I'm being real, I don't know, holier than thou when it comes to say jinx, but not really. Because right now, my biggest, my favorite story I'm reading right now is cash or credit. Okay. Have you checked that one out? Oh my god. Okay, so this kid gets thrown in jail for I want to say hacking. Yeah, he's a hacker. He gets thrown in jail and basically starts getting essayed by this guard. Okay. Everybody's terrified of him, including the warden. And he basically gets to do whatever he wants in the prison. But it turns out that he's like a mafia guy. And he's after the kid in particular because he ripped him off. But the kid doesn't know it. He only knows him by his name. So he's in there. Oh, I'm going to basically make this kid's life miserable and then I'm going to kill him. Only they're both falling in love with each other. So the warden's son is also a guard, and he's trying to basically who I for some reason, somehow the kid and him have met before, and he for the kid, but the kid isn't into him. But he thinks that he like he can somehow get him away from the guard's name is Michael. He can get him away from Michael, and then the kid will be like grateful. So he's trying to get the kid to sell out Michael, and he is trying to play both of them so that he doesn't basically end up dead by one side or the other. And it's just so juicy and it is so wrong on every level, but it's just so good. I'm really into mafia stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

So a lot of the gangster mafia type things that I'm into are very, very toxic. When you were talking about that one, that made me think of Legs That Won't Walk is a really good one. I have the Oh, it's so good.

SPEAKER_01:

Sorry, I haven't read it.

SPEAKER_00:

I haven't seen it with my eyeballs. Some way. That one also kind of has like second ship syndrome. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so hard. What else did I read that was toxic? Painters of the Night is one of my absolute favorite. I bought that the minute it ended. I have all of the merch. I have everything. I've only spent$200 just on the merch for that stuff. The one I write like real uh right now that just started season two was is it silk over steel? Steel over silk? Have you silk silk silk?

SPEAKER_00:

We'll get it eventually. Yes, very good.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so good. And I was reading the extras, and the author said that they were going to start the series as season two. Like they were gonna start it with them being toxic and then falling in love, but then for some reason they decided that it would be better for them to fall for each other and then have him be like betray him at the end, and then have season two just be the whole revenge arc. And I was like, oh, that's so good. That's so good. Because it makes it so much juicier now. It's just so good, it's so toxic and so wrong. But I love a good period piece. I love that. I don't know what I'm watching right now. No. Oh my god. Okay. Ty, Ty Biel, it's Demundi, which usually I used to be hit or miss. I'm not gonna lie. I love Z and Nanu. They're very cute, they're very sweet, they're adorable in real life. They're good. I could not get through the next prints. It was a little too cheesy for me. I'm not a fairy tale person.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But then they came out with they have all their new couples in shows now. Thomas and Kang, I believe. They did your sky. Very cute, but very addictive. The whole thing, sugar in your mouth kind of stuff. It just there wasn't a sad moment to be found in it. It was just all puppies and unicorns the whole way through. Very cute. I call it my palate cleanser after I get through a really toxic one. I'll go back and I'll watch that. Yeah. But then they just came out with Kim Jiro, which is this kid has a karmic curse put on him, and you don't really know why. Uh-huh. But basically, since he was a little kid, they've been trying to have this curse lifted, and he's going to die on his 21st birthday. So the mom ends up dying because of the curse, and then the dad becomes a Buddhist monk trying to atone for his son's karma. And he becomes friends with this kid. They go to the kid's village, and he starts falling in love with the village priest, who is 100% so fucking hot. He's so beautiful. And the acting is breathtaking. The special effects are amazing. It's so good. I was shocked that Dumundy put this out. That's how good it was. And not because they produce necessarily bad stuff, but in the past they've produced meh stuff, real middle of the road. Not great, not bad. And a lot of toxic storylines that aren't the stuff that could have been like fixed with one conversation last 12 episodes. I can't stand that shit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because it's not realistic. We all know that if somebody did something to you, you're gonna go to them and just be like, what the fuck is your problem? Oh, I saw you kiss somebody. I'm not gonna talk to you about it for four episodes. No, you're storming into that restaurant, you're gonna be like, What the fuck is going on? Nobody is that well adjusted or non-well adjusted that they're just gonna let it fester. Not anymore. Maybe back in the 80s, but not now. So that stuff drives me nuts. But yeah, every episode is between an hour and two hours long. Jesus. And it never feels like that. Every time the episode ends, I'm like, no. I love Vincenzo. Oh my god, I love Vincenzo. I want a season two so badly.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm waiting for an inspo for Park. Really?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh much sense. I loved him so much in Vincenzo, and I was so sad when it ended that I literally used him as my inspo for park. That's amazing. He's so beautiful. Though the one who plays the psycho, the really hot psycho that was. He used to be got seven, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

No, his group. Oh my god, I wish he was in got seven. That would have been amazing. Oh my god, he's got too much power. I can't think of his group, but like he's fucking beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. What the fuck up? I was like, tell me you're not lying to me, right? Oh my god. I saw the announcement. I literally started sending it to everybody I know who watches Ben Chen. So I was like, he's getting a BL. Oh my god, our dreams are coming true.

SPEAKER_00:

Korean BL is a thing. I think I just haven't watched enough of it because the ones that I have watched just aren't my vibe. Like they're a little too squishy for me.

SPEAKER_01:

I will say all of the BLs that have been my favorite have usually been Korean. But like for different reasons. I love semantic error. Yeah. Because one, I read it first. Right. I anger the BL gods. I'm sorry. Something just flew off my shelf. Jesus Christ. I am alone in my room right now. Something just blew off my shelf. Sorry. Okay. But yeah, because I loved the main leads. I thought they were so cute. And I just liked their behind-the-scenes stuff. And I think that's that influenced it heavily. But Ballboy Taxics is another one that is very cute and fluffy, and it's got the size difference that I just can't get enough of. But this one had sex. It had kisses that were so good. I was like, do you guys have something going on? Right. Because the chemistry was chemistrying. Trying to think of, yeah. Secret relationships was juicy. Really juicy. And that was Korean. But yeah, they are usually not heavy. I find them, like I said, to be good palette cleansers, like in between. I feel the same way about GMM TV shows. Yeah. I will say that they're getting the acting. I don't know what they did to those boys. They put them through some kind of machine. Now all of a sudden they all know how to kiss. Now all of a sudden, their acting is actually pretty top-notch. Yeah. Their storylines are getting better. The directing is getting better. They've gotten far away from the stupid, traditional, like old school stuff that they used to do where you were just like, this is not, this is abusive. Yeah. This isn't even sexy. It's just bad sex and abuse.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, we're gonna figure out if we're gonna be friends or not. Do you like Thorn type? Did I like it?

SPEAKER_01:

It was the second BL I ever watched. Put it this way, I watched it more than once. I liked their chemistry and I liked the premise in that I think it was actually realistic in that I think a lot of people who claim they hate gays have some unresolved sexual interest that they haven't really tapped into. Because homophobe is gonna be like, you know what? I'll let you make that. I'll let you hit it from the back as an apology. As an apology. That would be my go-to.

SPEAKER_00:

I need to give it another shot. The vendetta against it. It's my least favorite. I just want to hug me.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I will tell you that I would never in a million years recommend it as a BL. If somebody was like, oh, I need a BL to watch, it it wouldn't even be on my radar. Yeah. I feel a lot, I would feel that way about a lot of her work, though, to be honest. You know what I mean? Like Love in the Air. Again, I will say about Love in the Air that the other than two points, it was a very realistic dom-sub relationship, with the exception of one, he didn't tell them they were in a dom-sub relationship. Okay. Two, this kid had no clue, like that he was being manipulated. And you don't really know how deep the manipulation goes until the end of the series, like literally the last episode. You realize that he set this up from the very beginning. Again, side couple syndrome, like the second couple's story was more interesting, but also it was way more. She has a habit of doing this. She does things that are super toxic, but she somehow also makes the person doing the toxic behavior just redeemable enough. Yeah. To where you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It is the epitome of the intimate partner violence relationship where you're like, I hate that one thing, but there's all these other things. And that's how they keep you. That's how they keep you. But unfortunately, all of her books are that way. Love see, love in the air. Everything she does just has this toxic undertone to it, to the point where even she is now going back and fixing stuff in her stories because she's realizing the backlash, like calling the bottom wife, stuff like that. As soon as they saw the international backlash from that, they literally went back in and changed the subtitles. Yeah. Because I think they're now realizing that it's gotten so much bigger than they anticipated it would. It's gone so global. It's just like K-pop. Like it's now far outside of Korea. And international fans are less tolerant of things that some people just say, oh, it's cultural. And they just don't tolerate it. And it's not even just Americans sticking their nose in things. It's everywhere. Everybody is saying, no, that's not right. And so they have to like we have to cater to our fans. We have to keep that going. And we plan on talking about this more in the podcast because Shannon doesn't really see how they run like TI BL ships.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And how they get you to ship the actors together, not the roles. I wanted to talk about it on the podcast because when you're talking to authors, it's like it's that parasocial relationship. And it's crazy what people are willing to ride out with you if they're like, no, we're friends. And I genuinely I call my readers fans now because that it's the feral fandoms podcast. But I never liked calling them fans before. I always called them my readers because I felt like fans makes it seem like you're up here and they're down here. And that's just not something I ever want to think about because honestly, I'm such a normal person that every day I wake up and I'm like, I still can't believe people read my books. You know what I mean? I I get up, I get dressed, I sit down with my coffee, and I just do my job. And it's just, but people are just, oh my God, I can't believe I'm meeting you and it's not that big a deal.

SPEAKER_00:

The first time we ever talked, I was exactly like that. Like, I go back and I look at the replay of our panel from Last Citrus Con, and I'm sitting there like- Oh, crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

I was so worried. I swear to God, I was so worried. I was like, what if I say something stupid? What if I do something stupid? What if I don't know enough about the source material to actually provide any kind of conversation? Are the source material? And Shannon will want to talk about my books on the podcast, and I'm like, that's not why we're here. Anyway. That's not why we're here. But what you do, and it doesn't matter. That's not because I don't know. It's one of those things where I'm both an attention whore, but also can't handle compliments. I get that. I want people to like me, but I don't want them to tell me they like me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I want to make stuff. I want you to like it, but at the same time, please don't compliment me because I don't do anything else.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly like my therapist would have a field day with that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right after this.

SPEAKER_01:

What's funny is I remember telling my therapist when I dream, I don't dream about anything that has to do with myself. Yeah. When I'm always somebody else, I'm a different person. And I'm basically watching things happen to these people. And she goes, even in your dreams, you're not the center. It's like, damn. That was hard. God damn. Well shit. To know that. Yeah. It was like my other therapist telling me, you make friends with your therapist so you don't have to do any work. That's just mean.

SPEAKER_00:

That's just mean.

SPEAKER_01:

Then I got shipped off EMDR therapy.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Which I just graduated from. I have three therapists, so I'm right there with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Two group therapy. When I finished EMDR therapy, she's like, I have the name of some other therapist that I want you to see. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. You said we were done. She's like, no, no, I said we were done. You and me. Now I think you need talk therapy. I think I talk enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

My books are my talk therapy. Thank you. I just take it out on my characters.

SPEAKER_00:

Poor babies. My poor babies. We love them.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Lynn, you'll like the newsletter thing that's happening right now. Oh. Because my 13 nights of Halloween is basically I'm doing like a couple story every day or every other day, depending on what else I'm doing in the newsletter that day. But basically, we're doing a bunch of sales, and I'm doing stories of all the couples at a party that Thomas is throwing called The Villains of Vigilantes Gala. And it's basically all of my characters together in one room hunting down one specific person that people have been waiting to get killed off for years. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great. Your Patreon.

SPEAKER_01:

I need to join your Patreon just so I can like this will be on the Patreon for the podcast, but I'll send you the link so you can watch it whenever you want. But also, I'll give you a membership to the Patreon. You don't have to fuck up. As long as you have it, it's fine. We're friends, girl.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, I didn't even ask your pronouns to them, but I'm totally I'm fluid. It's fine. Was she her? Maybe. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_01:

Anytime somebody asks me my pronouns, I stumble. You know what I mean? Because I'm just she her, because I always have, because that just seems like that's the case. But then some days I don't really know that actually is. Yeah. But you know what?

SPEAKER_00:

I've got enough to unpack it. Yeah. Yeah. Put that on a little shelf for now. Unpacking to understand that I was a they them. Like it took a lot of therapy and a lot of talking and thinking about things that you don't want to think about. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's just I have grandkids now. And I hate when people try to like gender them in a way my my my grandsons love. Butterflies. They love princess stuff. They love, and I'm like, yeah, buy them the purple unicorn pajamas. Buy them the and thank God my daughter and her wife are like obviously just fuck yeah, put them in a P2. I don't care. But other people, because we're in North Carolina, and there's just that, oh well, you wouldn't let them wear that, would you? Yeah, yeah, fuck off. Eat shit. Eat shit. And honestly, I've gotten to a point where I don't even have a filter about it anymore because I just don't care. I'm just like, and of course, my my son-in-law, because my daughter's Polly, so she has a wife and a boyfriend, the kid's father. And he's like, Oh, you're being too vocal about this stuff. You're being too loud. There's a lot of people around here who are Trump supporters, and it's really bad right now. And I'm never gonna be silent. I'm just not I wasn't born that way. I wasn't built that way. Somebody like somebody has to be. I'm on that banned book list now because of it. They put me on that banned book list because of it. Amazing, dude. That's a the first time it came out, Jex Lane put it on her site, and I was looking, and my name wasn't on it, and I was so upset that my name wasn't on it. And then the next time she put up a list, I was there and I was like, I think 109, and I was like, Yeah, finally. The only thing that freaked me out though is that they had my real name as well as both my pen names on there. And that's when I realized I was way too accessible on the internet and I had to lock that shit down. I scrubbed myself from the internet because I don't care. Me personally, fuck it, whatever. I've lived long enough on this planet, it's really not that big a deal. But my children and my grandchildren are important to me, so I wanted them not so accessible, but me, God, every given day, I'm just like, ugh, let's do this shit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, yep, relatable, same. Yeah, I wish I could remember what the fuck it's called, but there's another like band book list that's literally called the BL list. Like, they don't know. They don't know. It's great. I need to let me Google it. I saw it on John Oliver. Google it's the shit.

SPEAKER_01:

It's great. Actually, I was telling my daughter the other day, thank god for the Daily Show and for John Oliver. It's the only way to palette any of the shit that's going on right now. Yeah, it's the only way to get through it is to literally just laugh about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I swear to god it exists.

SPEAKER_01:

But they send it to me when you find it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you need to learn Discord.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm trying. I thank God I have so many people who were are willing to run it for me. Yeah because my Discord for Only James is so out of control now. I go in there and I'm like, oh, like there's so many threads and so many things, and I'm just like, okay, this is overwhelming. And then I created the Discord for the burned out muse, and it's the same thing. Now there's 700 people in there, there's eight million threads, and I just go in there and I'm like, oh, wrong room. And I just leave because I get overwhelmed so easily. I thank God, like other people are in there just like controlling the situation. But I made this place for authors, and then all these authors and fans showed up, and I'm this is too much. What? I'm a thing, and people come to it. It's like being field of dreams. I was like, if you build it, they will come. And then they came, and I was like, nope, we're closed. Yeah, sorry. Everybody needs to go home. But I'm happy because they do writing sprints and they do all kinds of cool stuff in there, and like it's good. And I try to go in and do stuff for the podcast and for the Patreon in there. I wanted to see if because at one point I had actually planned on doing a real interview, but that never goes to plan because I have absolutely no attention span whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't either. And if you ever want to do this again, I am fucking down.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, I will definitely be bringing you back on. Oh, thanks! Tell me about Church of BL. Tell me about what because you say content creation, but what does that entail for those?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't have many subscribers. Subscribe to my YouTube. My main stuff is on Discord. My Discord server is Feral. We have live streams all the time where we play visual novels and uh BL stuff. What's a visual novel? What's a visual? Oh, honey. It's BL but interactive. It's a game. You can play gay boy games. So it's like the pick your own adventure books. It's like that, but a game. You're the main just the general example. You would be the main boy, and then you would have your love interests, and you as the player character, you get to pick what you say, and what you say determines which love interest you get, and then you can either get good endings or bad endings. Um sometimes the bad endings are the good endings. This is a whole genre of things.

SPEAKER_01:

You're never gonna get things done again. I have Rex players and watch it happen. Yes! Oh my god. Maybe I'll just learn Discord by watching you.

unknown:

Fuck yeah!

SPEAKER_00:

But I play visual novels all the time. That's a thing, it's a thing, and it's great to be the boy. It's it's it's great, especially from a trans point of view. It's an experience to get to be the boy. It's it's great. It's a good time.

SPEAKER_01:

Because of how I write, I'm always the boy, right? But it does change how I visualize things, yeah. Which is so weird because I once read something that said, I read so much BL that I now experience like porn from the man's point of view rather than a woman's. Yes, and that's exactly how it is. I like it, it has altered my viewpoint in so many things. It's crazy. And that's where I think the gender dysphoria comes in. And I'm just like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a panel that I don't know if we're gonna have it this year, but we had it either last year or year before last that somebody runs about gender and boys' love, and how a lot of people, like a good chunk of people in the boys' love community, have found their gender through boys' love and have found that I'm not a girl. I'm not, and for X, Y, Z reason, and I relate incredibly too much to gay men, and I relate so much to the male experience that it's my is this.

SPEAKER_01:

One of my readers sent me a message the other day, and he literally said, You write from a perspective of a gay man so well, I wouldn't doubt you were gay in your last life. Yeah, and my first thought was, I feel like I'm gay in this one. Yeah, I have an ex-wife and I have an ex-husband, and to me, they were both the same meh situation.

SPEAKER_00:

I wouldn't recommend either if I'm being honest. Dude, I have friends that are ace, that are asexual, that are the horniest people I've ever met in my life.

SPEAKER_01:

That's you don't have that. Like, yeah, yeah, I love sex. I'm not a fan of sex with other people.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I always tell people I'm the best I've ever had. I have a wife, so I can't say that too loud. She understands me. He knows they're kind of the best they've ever had. Yeah, no, like I like sex to an extent that I that's all I read about. But at the same time, I'm very particular about IRL stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, first off, I was never particular. That's the problem. I think that's because my daughter makes fun of me all the time because she's like, you write sex for a living, but you haven't had sex in forever. And listen, if you had the amount of sex I have, I'm retired. I'm retired, I'm benched. She tired, she tired. Like she's exhausted, she's good, she's fine, she's sad enough. But like at the same time, I I hated the anxiety that always came with sex, but I think that's from the neurodivergent part of my brain. Same. You know, and because I wasn't diagnosed until later in life, I think things would have made a lot more sense. Yeah, but like there was no such thing as autism when I was a kid. Same. You were just weird. Yep, you were just the weird kid. So she was just the weird girl who cried in the bathtub at parties for no reason. Like I was like, not because I was overstimulated or overwhelmed or anything, just because I was preaching to the choir.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. In the 90s. And in the 90s, girls didn't have autism.

SPEAKER_01:

So you didn't have autism, you didn't have ADHD because they never tested any of those things on girls. It was always purpoise. Even when they all medical research was for voice.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Even when they did, it's I still didn't because I masked too well. And it's just we had no choice. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my we had no choice but to mask. Like we had no choice but to mask. And I look at it now, and part of the reason that I was in EMDR therapy for so long is because I literally had no emotions about anything.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I had learned to just shut everything off to the point where it didn't matter what you told me. When my mom died, I was like, oh, moving on with my day, because it was easier to just be whatever everybody wanted you to be. Yeah, relatable. Yeah. And it's crazy because I see it now in other people, and I'm just wow. Well, there's this one guy I follow on Instagram who is basically, I can't remember what his name is, but it's I think Unmasked is in his title. And when he's talking, he does the thing where his hands are always moving, but he was basically telling people about how he used to mask, and he snapped that mask back into place. And it was so jarring to see how he just behaved like everybody else and spoke like everybody else and used the same slang and the vernacular and everything. And then when that mask is off, he's a completely different person. And people were like, Oh, if you can do that, you're not autistic. No, wrong. It was one of those moments because it's so frustrating. We just learn to be chameleons, we learn to be whatever we have to be to make the situation as comfortable for everyone else as possible. My mom used to say that all the time. You're such a little chamon. Nobody realizes like who you are because of how you just blend in with everybody. I'm like, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Boom.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's just say my favorite character of yours is Wyatt. And I have mommy issues where he has daddy issues. And uh yes, yes, that that is me. Relatable, Aaron.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I have daddy issues issues for sure when it comes to my dad, it was definitely children are basically to be seen, not heard, suck it up, buttercup. That's me and the world doesn't revolve around you. Like, not everything's about you. Just stand up to your bullies, they're gonna bully you forever. You're such a coward, that kind of shit. Yeah, no. My dad was old school, he was born in 1928. He was 50 when I was born. Nice. He was that guy. He was the guy you had to like shake their foot and duck when they woke up. Yeah, he would come up swinging. But yeah, my dad didn't get me at all. I was the baby of six. My next oldest sibling was 11 years older than me, and everybody else was completely neurotypical. And then there was me. Yeah. And I had a vocabulary that would choke a horse at the age of three. I was gifted, but I was also horribly shy. I was overly emotional. I didn't understand. I would ask questions that people never wanted to hear the child ask, especially when I was in Lutheran school. And I'd be like, that doesn't make sense. I wasn't welcome to our therapy session. It started an hour earlier.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. But boys love dicks. I like those. They're cool. Dicks.

unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I like when they touch. I like them on other people. I don't personally want one on me because gender reasons, but uh, I like them on other people.

SPEAKER_01:

If I'm not using one, I really don't have any reason for it to be around.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Them from afar. Like I'm not feeling your D is fine. It's just like I um I'm good. I feel it's situational. Yeah. Close to being ace.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I don't love vagina. Yeah. Did you ever see the movie Easy A with Emma Stone? I've heard of it. So it's one of my favorite movies. Okay, like it's so snarky, and she delivers that sarcasm so well. But at one point, she's helping her gay friend pretend he's not gay. So they're pretending to have sex in the bedroom. So jumping on the bed together and making it sound like they're doing it. And at some point she gives him her underwear to make it like more believable. And he like makes this face that she's like, What do you think I have down there? I know what's with that face, you know? Why are you looking at it like that? But I always laugh because I'm always like whenever it's like, I it's a choice to be gay. I'm like, Oh, then I've got some news for you. You are choosing to be straight. Yeah. Yeah. You are choosing to be straight because only bisexual people would think that it was a choice whether they decided to like men or women. Yep. I my child came out to me when she was, I don't know, maybe 12. We were driving in the car and she just said, How would you feel if I wanted to date women? I was like, okay. I just kept driving and she's like, That's it. And I was like, What do you want me to do? And that's how it I don't care who you date, just don't date a dick. It shouldn't be that big. Oh my god. Like, gender's a construct. I don't really give a shit what's in people's pants. Like it doesn't really matter to me. I was like, Yeah, if you're trying to rebel, you're gonna have to pick a new way because I don't care. Like, I don't care. It's not working. So fantastic. But she's been with her wife. Like, they've met when they were 11. Oh, that's cute. My daughter's gonna be 28 this year. They've been together for a long time. My nephew met his wife when they were 14, and he's in his 40s now. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

My family, they just latch on to people and they imprint like ducklings, and that's a meanwhile, me, I've got about seven to ten business days with anybody, and I'm like, okay, you're getting on my nerves.

SPEAKER_00:

It will happen if it needs to happen.

SPEAKER_01:

My ex-wife was my best friend first. So it felt like just a natural progression. Yeah. I definitely have to be friends with somebody first because I don't trust people. Same. I have massive trust issues. So I need you to do an internship before I offer the position. I need to know that you're willing to stick out my crazy before I offer the full-time position because I'm not an easy person to deal with. I am fully aware. I am a Virgo in every sense of the word. Like I am very much a hot mess in all aspects of my life. But yeah, no, I definitely am an acquired taste, but I also am very picky.

SPEAKER_00:

It's good to be picky.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think so. One time my mom used to say, it was an old quote from a black and white star, Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin, where it was like, I'd never want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's how I feel about dating. Oh my god. Oh, you need such a standard tire. That's why we go to Thairs. Welcome to Therapy. No, I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

Mentally avoiding with you and the audience. Let's get together and talk about fandom stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like that goes hand in hand with the panels on citrus colours. Yep. Because I think that it does go hand in hand. Every week I get people who go, Oh my god, I totally agreed with you the whole time, or I totally get it. Nobody ever says the stuff that you guys say. And I think that's why, because we have no filter. We just give our honest opinion on things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, if you ever want to come on and actually, if there's anything you want to promote or you want to talk about, like any books you want to talk about or whatever, any things you're reading or whatever, you should come back on with Shannon because I think you and Shannon would get along famously. She's also got no filter. Fuck yeah. She is she is somebody who is. She's a Sagittarius, I will tell you that.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm a cancer, if that helps at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you guys will get along great. Cancers and Sagittarius always love each other so much. Like my daughter, every time she has a new friend, I'm like, a cancer. She's a Sagittarius.

SPEAKER_00:

Me and my wife are both cancers. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a lot of feelings.

SPEAKER_00:

A lot of emotions. Wow. But that's probably a good thing. No, we talk about fucking everything. And it's it's amazing to just have someone that you can just communicate with and it's not a big fucking deal. It isn't a huge ordeal to be like, hey, I want to talk about this thing, and they're just like, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And then we she like all your BL stuff?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Fujoshi. So oh, then you should bring her on too. Yeah, yeah. That sounded way creepier than I meant it to. No, it's fine. I think that would be interesting. But all right, I will let you go. I want to do this again. I definitely want to do this again. It's so much fun. I'll bring Shannon on. You can bring your wife. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much for putting up with this mess.

SPEAKER_00:

Dude, thank you. Email me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Bye.

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Onley James

Host
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Shannon Ezzell

Co-host