Episode 17 | Code Requirements and more.

This panel discussion features fire protection experts discussing common mistakes in fire alarm system training, code requirements, and best practices for system installation and maintenance. Key insights include the importance of understanding code details, proper documentation, and practical application in the field.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this edition of the Temporal Freak Podcast. I am joined by my co-host, Charles Olner. Good morning, Charles. Hello. And my other co-host, Mr. Chris Godwin, our senior instructor. Good morning, Chris. Good morning. So, guys, the first thing I want to talk about this morning, our first topic is always training. I want to talk about common mistakes that our students make when attending an NTC class, particularly a NISAP class. Charles, what have you seen in the classes? I know it's been a few years since you've taught a class, but what have you seen uh mistake wise that students make?

SPEAKER_03 0:38

One of the biggest things, a lot of our students have uh quite a bit of experience, years of experience, and they rely on their experience more than what the code says. So they have this uh belief that what they've experienced in the field is exactly what the code requires, and that's not the case. Chris, what have you found?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I've found that that happens all the time, but for me it's it's it's three things. They'll forget to bring in their books, they won't bring in um highlighters, and then it does falt back that to that I know what I'm doing, I don't need these books, I don't need these books kind of thing, and it's huge. It's one of those things that just I I I had a case just uh you know uh in a class recently where a guy showed up with no books, and he was like, Yeah, I was I don't have any books.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I was like, dude, come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

So yeah, huge, huge mistakes right there.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

And Brian, for you, it's been a while since you've taught a class. What have you seen in the uh decades ago where you taught?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Decades ago, that's right. Well, I think the number one thing is uh, as you both mentioned, not bringing the codes. But I'll tell you, even bigger than that, what I what I experience a lot is um people who think they know it all already because they've got 20 years of experience, and they may know, as you say, jurisdictionally what's required, but they don't know what the national code says. And um their AHJ may say all pole stations have to be at four feet to the top of the pole station. Well, that's great. The code says three and a half to four to the actionable, what is it, Chris? Active actuator. Actuator, thank you. I keep I couldn't get that word up to the case.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

42 and 48 inches to the actuator above finish floor.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Let's practice.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Actuator. Actuator.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

There you go. One other thing I've seen is uh people who uh, and I I generally don't fault the student for this. I usually uh say that this is a misconception, shall we say, by the employer that they are forced to share codes with other people? Why is that bad, Chris? Why is sharing codes bad?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Seen that a few times too, and I just don't get it. Like you're going in for your exam. Tom over here has got the books already. I'm just gonna borrow his. Well, Tom's highlighted stuff that is pertinent for Tom, not for you. And you know, that's a big thing, too. And also, what if Tom forgets to bring the book to you? It it's every student should have their own books. It's just it's you're going in for your exam, you should have your study materials. Charles?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

And Chris, I'd like to expand on that. If you're in our industry and you're looking at fire protection, fire alarm system specifically as a career, the code book is a must. Uh we should have the current edition of the code available to us every single day of our working life. Brian, would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Absolutely. It's critical. If you are a fire alarm professional or a fire protection professional or a fire suppression professional, if you're in the sprinkler business or special hazards business, you know, if you're going to be a professional, you've got to have the materials that professionals have. That's like showing up to a job site without your tools, is coming to a class without codes is basically the same thing. And that the shared code concept, the other thing that uh bothers me about that, guys, is the nicet exam expensive?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah. Every single level of it is. It's and it gets worse as you go higher and higher. And is it a f is it a frustrating experience?

SPEAKER_01 4:19

I struggled with it.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah, I did too. Charles, I know you did. Well, Charles didn't have any trouble. He aced it the first time. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Everybody experiences frustration.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

So if you have something that you know from all everybody else has ever taken it, that's going to be a huge struggle, and you have to have particular material that you are allowed to bring into that exam that you need to know backwards and forwards going into that exam, wouldn't you want that material available to you 24-7? So anytime you have the inkling to study, you could work with it.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

All the time. All the time. Um another thing, Brian, and this is something you harp on all the time. Uh we get occasionally students who are reluctant to look it up in the code. They answer from the top of their head, they don't get the practice that they need using the code to find information. And I think that's detrimental for them in the long run. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Absolutely. One of the one of my big things, and this uh drives people crazy because they don't think they need to do it, but there's really a method to the madness is navigation skills. That you have to build navigation skills going to this exam. And the example I use is mounting height of a pull station. You probably know what it is off the top of your head. But most people in a minute and a half can't find it in the code. Some people say, I know, I know it's three and a half to four feet. Why do I have to look it up? Because I want you to find it and know where it is in the code, which code it is, and where it is in that code, because when you get another oddball pole station question, like grouped openings that we don't see all the time, or a combination pole station and guard tour, something that we probably haven't seen in 50 years or more, that you know where to find the answer to that. That you know how to find where that information is. So it's not, you don't need that skill for the stuff you know. What where you need that skill is the stuff you don't know, because basically the codes are organized. All the PulseStation stuff's in one section for the most part, you know, in 1715. Uh smoke detector stuff's obviously spread throughout the code, but you know, the bulk of the smoke detector stuff is in 177. If you know where your way around the codes, it will expedite your ability to find information. And the way you build that skill is practice, practice, practice. It's like uh riding a bicycle. You know, even though you're good at it, you keep practicing so you get better and better. So you don't crash into the back of cars and go over handlebars like that ever happened to me.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I'll say one thing, one thing that you brought up about, you know, the skill for the stuff that you don't know, but the stuff that you do know, practicing the skill, it's no longer like the stress of having to find it. I know what it is. Now I get to actually just do. And I've had so many times in classes where people are like, oh, I know what the answer is. That's cool. Are you able to find it? Because what about the stuff that you don't know? We want to build this skill. I always tell our students all the time, knowing and showing are two different things. It's great if you know it. Can you find it? You know, going back to you know, movies, Brian and I always we have the same quote. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

And it's also an important skill in everyday work. When your boss, when the AHJ, when whoever says, Hey, why are you doing that? Well, I saw that in the code one day, doesn't cut it. Here's where it is in the code, does. This is exactly what the code says. Here it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So, Chris, you say you're a knower, not a shower, huh? Or a shower, not a knower. Showing, showing, knowing and showing are two different things, yeah. Well, guys, the next thing I'd like to talk about is a common code requirement that there's often a lot of confusion on from our students because of the way it's worded in the code, and that is number of tamper switches or supervisory devices to be more specific, and the number of water flow devices put it put permitted on the zone. Now, with water flow devices, what's that number, Chris? How many can we have on a zone? You have up to five.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

You have up to five for water flow.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

And how about supervisory devices like tamper switches?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

You could have up to 20 in it. I I understand. I understand the why. I hate the application in real world because it's we we we don't have to have you know it tied to one zone. And even if you do, you can utilize individual addressable modules to it. And and that is another thing that we hit on it with it. Is you could use one addressable module for that entire now, you got 20.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

It just it's were well and I think that dates to the uh antiquity of the code. Back when we had a fire alarm panel that's conventional and has two zones, one for alarm and one for supervisory. Uh that's kind of the deal. I mean, nowadays even when I was installing many, many years ago, we'd use an addressable module for every single tamper without exception. I mean, you just don't do 20 on one module ever.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Oh, people do. People do.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

And uh although that although that might be uh compliant with the code, uh in practical application, I don't really see that being done anymore. And Chris, you say you've experienced it in your days out in the field. Did you see that?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

So we had uh we had gone out to do some actual in not inspection testing, but actual service on a system that wasn't ours. So one, I'm in a f I'm in an unfamiliar building that I haven't been in for this aspect, and two, they want me to do you know, service on a system that it's going down into the sprinkler system, and there was a trouble on the supervisory zone, and they had 20 tampers tied to that one zone because COVID-19.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

It's a conventional panel, yeah. So it's not an addressable panel.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

No, it was it was a it was an addressable panel, but they were they just had one zone tied for sprinkler supervisory. And I was like, what is going on right now? Why is there what is go happening? So what we ended up having to do is tie in uh monitor modules or uh addressable modules to every single one of the tampers. And we finally cleared it out, and it was like tamper three, the third tamper in. That was the problem. I was like, why would you do this to another human being? Why would you tie 20 in?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I think that I think it's a legitimate reason to open up a can of whoop ass on somebody if they put 20 tampers on a zone that's uh or a circuit, that's uh that's not good. That's not nice. As you said, not a good thing to do to a fellow fire alarm technician.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

And that was the first time I ever encountered that, and I was just like, why would you do this? Code allows you. Code allows you.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

I think a lot of the confusion on this can uh extends from the way the wording is in the code. I'm gonna read from the code here for water flow initiating devices, and also it's repeated for supervisory signal devices, that either five for water flow or 20 for tampers, you have permitted to be connected to a single initiating device circuit. So, and that number, that term initiating device circuit, a lot of people think, well, IDC, that means conventional panel. So this only applies when we're working on a conventional panel. It doesn't work, comply, or excuse me, it doesn't apply if we're working an addressable panel, because an addressable panel is an SLC, a signaling line circuit. But what we forget is that is the way the code is worded because up to the point of an addressable module is an SLC. Where we hit that monitor module and we connect those non-addressable devices, like the water flow or the tamper switch, that is now an IDC, an initiating device circuit. So the code requirement still does apply to addressable modules. So, as Chris said, technically you could put 20 on a soup on a on a monitor module. That's okay, according to the code. Probably not going to make you any friends at your company, but uh with the service people, but it's not something we should do, but technically it was compliant with the code.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

And Brian, in your experience, I mean, you've done a lot of systems work in your career. Did you typically quote systems, one monitor module for 20 supervisory devices? Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Sure, all the time. Because those monitor modules are expensive.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

So, in your experience, doing that is not something that's commonly done.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

No. Would you like to do that? The only time I've ever seen it done is takeover situations where they're replacing a conventional panel with an addressable panel, and the wiring is not maybe it's inconvenient to run individual modules, but I I just in a new install and even on a takeover, I think it is really worth running that module because if you look at Chris, you were lucky you hit it on the third tamper that you were able to find the issue. It could have very easily been the 20th.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

That was after that was after we tied in every all the addressable models. Oh, absolutely. We already did the work. And then found it.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Then you found it. Well, there you go. And think how much time could have been saved uh uh you know and charge billable to the customer if that work had been done ahead of time and you would have known exactly where to go rather than uh have to filter through all of them and rewire everything.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

You want to hear the fun irony about what this building was? Sure. This was the same building that I did a couple of my nice at tests at. Wow. And it was like code's coming right back in. Code's coming right back to bite me. It's great. It's wonderful. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Great. Well, finally, I'd like to talk about a question from the field that we had from one of our students recently. And I like to call this one the one pole station. I was having a discussion with one of our students, which we all love to have. We love talking with our students and talking to them about code. Guys, do we live code? Do we eat, drink, and sleep code all the time? I know Charles personally has his own copy of 72 that he keeps under his pillow at night, you know, and because he's such a code geek. And uh we were talking about the requirement for the one pole station and where it appears in the code, and there are actually three different places that it appears. It appears in 72, it appears in NFPA 101, which is one of the possible building or life safety codes we we could be using and design, and it appears in the IBC. So it is a pretty consistent requirement. First of all, Chris, what is the purpose of that one pole station? Why do we have one pole station on basically on every fire alarm system?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Uh depend depending on what uh book you're looking at. From an IPC perspective, it's I put it into the thought process of human intervention is sometimes more appropriate than waiting for automatic detection. When you look at it from 72 or 101, it's there so that in the event that the system's on test, you can still alert the supervising station of, hey, this is real. This is real, real fire, fire bad.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

As Frank would say. As Frank would say. So Charles, what what's your take?

SPEAKER_03 15:49

I take a more practical approach. Uh yeah, it's a requirement in the code, and putting a sticking a pull station somewhere is uh uh in compliance with the code, but what's the purpose of it? Chris alluded to that. If it's to uh have a way to activate the system and alert somebody in the event the system is on test, that's a non-starter from my perspective. Because when we are working on a fire alarm system and we call the monitoring station and we say, hey, put account one, two, three, four on test, every single device on that system is on test. They're not going to say, oh, it's a pull station, so that must be real now. The whole thing's on test. The second part is if it's a human intervention thing, uh, don't locate that pull station at the panel in a locked closet somewhere. Nobody has access to it. If it's a human intervention thing, it has to be out somewhere where people can access it. Brian, what's your take?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Absolutely. That's uh my thought on it too. It I always uh because the code specifically says the manual fire alarm box shall be located where determined by the AHJ, where the AHJ wants it. And sometimes that's next to the panel. And as Charles mentioned, that's usually in a locked room. So basically the thought process is, at least on the AHJ's part, and I'm not picking on AHJs here, but if you think about it logically, so if there's a fire in the building and the sprinkler system or the automatic detectors don't set off the fire alarm, but you want to manually activate the fire alarm, you've got to hunt down the maintenance guy, get the key to the room, go in there and pull the pull station, do all this on your way out of the building because the building's on fire. Uh yeah, no, it does make a lot of sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Now, one aspect that does make sense, the AHJ wants an easy way to activate the system at the panel. Okay, I can understand that.

unknown 17:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

We've seen some AHJs, sorry, Chris, we've seen some AHJs that actually uh want it multiple, that they want one at the panel and they may want one in the constantly attended location. And I always say to our students or people that question that, well, if the minimum is one and the AHJ wants two, are they technically exceeding the minimum? Yes. Absolutely. Are they allowed to do that? Yeah, absolutely. Chris?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Um I look at it with with the whole thing of the reason behind that as far as code looks at is to alert them of there's an activation. Look, if I'm inside of a building and it's on fire, I'm gonna use my phone after I get out to call. But it's the whole intent of the one pull station, when we look at it on code aspect at least, is that. And I hate that in uh 101, it's annex A material that says that that one pull station should be at somewhere that's always accessible to the occupants. Why are we putting that as a should? That should be a shall thing. If we're not always gonna have to have one, why is it we have to put it, you know, AHJ only and not somewhere where occupants get it to it? And I kind of feel like it's one of those where it's always gonna be in the code, it's always gonna be, but like we're kind of past the point of the necessity for it. So it does kind of fall back to what Charles was saying, like having one somewhere that you can utilize to activate the system, whether that's for inspection testing purposes or to actually, you know, oh no, fire. Absolutely. How I look at it.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So the code tells us we have to stick it where the AHJ says you want the code to allow us to tell the AHJ where to stick it. Is that what you're implying, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I would never, because um, that's how you win a fight by losing. But uh no, it's actually it's actually in one it's 101 material. It's in 101 is annex material that specifically says at the very end of the reference in 101 in the annex for that. It specifically says that that one pool station should be in a place where occupants can access it.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Keyword should be.

unknown 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So it all turns out. And that's the part of the hate. Why is it a should? Yep. And uh the code does, we have to admit, guys, that the code does give a huge amount of power to the AHJ to make these determinations, and the AHJ uh may determine for whatever reason that it the best place is next to the poll next to the panel. And sometimes it's a lack of understanding on the AHJ's part of the ultimate purpose of that poll station. And I I agree with you guys that it should be more clearly stated and should be in the code as mandatory material, not recommendation. But since none of us sit on the code committee, I guess committees, uh unlike some of our fellow instructors, we really can't complain too loud about that.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

We have no say. All we can do is read it and comply. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Kind of like being married. All right, guys. Well, hey, I appreciate the time today. Thank you again uh for our listeners for joining the temporal three podcast. We hope to see you all again soon. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

I do have one question before we go, Brian. Sure, absolutely. Have you ever heard Chris use his mouth to imitate temporal three?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

I have not. I think we should ask for that, Chris. That's a lie. You know I do that in class to tell people what it sounds like. That's a lie.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

That's a bold face lie.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

All right, Brian, back to you.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

All right. Well, thanks, everyone. Have a great day.