NTC's Temporal 3
National Training Center's (NTC) Bryan McLane, Charles Aulner, and Chris Godwin discuss all things fire alarm, low voltage, NICET, and more. With occasional special guests.
NTC's Temporal 3
Episode 18 | Charles’ Daycare Dilemma and more.
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This episode explores the importance of engaging students with fire alarm codes through real-world stories, humor, and effective teaching tools. The 3 also discuss where pull stations are mentioned in the code and Charles' Daycare Dilemma in regard to IBC use groups.
Welcome to the NTC Temporal 3 Podcast, podcast all about fire alarm. Today we're joined by my co-host, Mr. Charles Ulner. Good morning, Charles. Good morning. Hello, everyone. And also our special guest, our recurring special guest, Mr. Edward T-Bone Hayden. Good morning, Ed. Hey, nice to be with you guys. Thank you. Appreciate you taking the time. Obviously, you're at a job site this morning. I see the uh sprinkler valve in the back there, sprinkler equipment in the back.
SPEAKER_03Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Getting what?
SPEAKER_03Getting ready to do a uh commercial fire alarm system and sprinkle system test. Yes. Awesome. Well, that's great.
SPEAKER_00Well, the first thing I'd like to talk about today, guys, is how NTC instructors work to engage our students. So I want you guys to tell me something or answer something for me. Is the code boring? Uh if if I if I may, uh is it boring?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, let's let's really be honest about this. And reading reading the fire alarm code book is like about exciting as watching paint dry. But the the real truth about this is inside that boring code book, there are rules that decide you know whether systems are going to work or people die, if I can be so dramatic, right? Sure. So uh I think that uh that's kind of what makes the code a little less boring when you know what's at stake. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00How about you, Charles?
SPEAKER_01Well, when I uh first started studying for my NYSAT test, I decided to read the code book like a novel. That was days and days of absolute agony and misery and pain. Since then, uh I've learned the code is really an interesting document. It's dynamic if you use it in the right way. When we teach class, we bring that dynamic aspect of the code out to the students. Uh everyone in our industry that's experienced the code thinks it sucks. But when we present that code material in class and we apply it to everyday real life work, it transforms that information into something much more. Ed, what do you think?
SPEAKER_03You know, Chuck, I think you hit it right on the head because we can actually take a really boring subject and really put it into perspective that our students can actually understand because they've experienced what we're talking about. And to be able to show them why they're doing what they do within the code and those requirements, I think really hits home. It's a home run to them right there. Absolutely. I agree with you, Chuck.
SPEAKER_01What it's done for me is it's taken the code from just a boring, absolutely painful book to read to something that I'm really truly excited about talking about and sharing with our students.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it absolutely. Uh I I am guilty, and I will say this. Uh I have had the uh copy of uh the code on my nightstand. For two reasons. To learn about what's happening and actually to put me to sleep.
SPEAKER_00There you go. So, guys, what tools do you use to bring the code to life in our classes? How do you bring it to life, Ed?
SPEAKER_03Well, I tell you, uh for me, feel stories. Field stories are the thing that really touches base with the guys that we talk about. Again, if I may go back, a lot of the guys that are in our class uh can actually relate to you know the terminology that we use uh and the situations that we've all been through at one point or another in our career, you know, uh understanding that uh uh when when an inspector finds something unusual and those real-world consequences of let's say a bad installation, how can you take that situation and actually turn it around to make it interesting and also to be able to identify where it is in the code book and why it's been. I've come to find out over the years of reading the code, and and it's gone back many years for me, uh, how the code has changed based upon those real-world consequences of bad installations and situations.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Charles, one tool that I've seen you use is humor, where you make jokes or say things that are humorous, or you think are humorous anyway, about the code. How do you use humor to make the code, bring the code to life?
SPEAKER_01Well, out in the field, we've all experienced uh various somewhat humorous aspects in our industry, and that's something that everyone can relate to. If they haven't experienced it yet, they're probably going to. And those types of uh real-world incidents really make a big difference. And just throwing something out that pertains to that uh as we discuss the code takes the code from just being generic legal type words on a page to something that they experience every day. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Ed, one that you're particularly good at, and I really admire, and I have not been able to master, is making false statements about the code. Well, you'll say this is a code requirement, it's completely false, just to see if the students will challenge you on it. And I I've always admired your ability to do that. I have not been able to master that, at least with a straight face.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, it it's it's and I and I appreciate that. It's funny you bring that up. I will see who's asleep in my class. And I'll make those initial false statements about a particular subject matter. Like, for example, we all know that uh pulse station should be mounted uh at least 10 feet from an egress point. And I'll I'll look around the class and I'll I'll see some people actually talking about that. Like, no, that's not what the code says. I I okay, then tell me where does the code say the requirement for poll station mounting by egress points. And what that does, that starts a ball rolling. Based upon that first initial false statement, you can get their minds working on, hey, let's find this in the code and find out what the real requirement is, rather than just putting a box up, slapping it in, throwing some wire in it, and yeah, it looks good. I can see it. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. So uh Charles, I know one of the things that that you've always told me that you admired about Ed was his ability to invade people's personal space. And y'all maybe may not be able to detect this from Ed, even though he is in Morgantown, West Virginia, he is from New York originally, from Brooklyn. He's a Brooklyn boy. And uh he is used to getting into people's face and invading personal space. And uh, Charles, tell me about how you admire Ed's ability to get in people's face.
SPEAKER_01Well, this is a really important thing, I believe. In our classes and the industry professionals that we deal with, we experience a lot of reluctance to start digging in the code. People just don't want to do it. Uh if they absolutely have to, sometimes they will, but they have some reluctance there. Ed, is it acceptable to you to have students not using their books in class?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh, on that first point, it's not acceptable. Does it happen? Absolutely, it does.
SPEAKER_01Well, it starts to happen, but every time you jump right in and and encourage them to dive into the code, and they do.
SPEAKER_03Normally, as Brian would say, I like to invade people's faces.
SPEAKER_01The best word to use the phrase encourage them to use the codes.
SPEAKER_03You stick with yours, I'm going with mine. Mine is actually getting right next to someone, looking at them, even though I'm addressing the rest of the class, making eye contact with them, and asking them a particular question. And that question may be, again, a false statement, and I want to see how they react. But the best way I think to encourage people that are getting into this industry or even have been in this industry for years, which we've we've had both in our classes, have we not? Absolutely. So the way to encourage, I believe, is to actually be part of that group that's actually learning. So if you're part of that group and you're in the middle of them, it actually feels like you're working as a team to get a solution. Yep. If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, it does. Well, at what point in your career, Ed, did you start to investigate the code seriously? Was it from day one or had you worked in the field for a number of years before you actually started diving into the code?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. And I think uh our history, based upon as long as we've known each other, uh really I have not uh been very interested initially to get involved with the code. Uh been in the industry going close to 40 years now, and basically I just did what looked right and uh crossed my fingers when the uh authority having jurisdiction came in and said, Is it okay? Is it gonna work? And then of course made changes. But when I first started my uh uh my initial idea of getting nice it certified, because it became a requirement in the state that I work in. We uh got involved, and I'm gonna say we, you and I, got involved with the code and started instructing at that point. And what's a better way to learn about the code and learn the code than to be able to teach someone how to use it? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Back then, as we started doing that, Ed, it was terrifying to me because when I'd read the code and learn what the code actually said, and I reflected back on jobs that I'd actually worked on and realized the mistakes that I had made and the things that uh may not have been code compliant, it's like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so some of those things that you may have done back then are things that could keep you up at night. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And when you wonder when would you recommend that people in our industry start researching and learning the code? As soon as they get into the industry. Yeah, day one for sure.
SPEAKER_03And I believe I believe the key to success is training. In order to learn, you need to be trained. You can follow along or ghost someone for a couple of years. And you don't know if that person out in the field that you're ghosting with or working with is actually doing it right. But the thing about it is if you start learning and get involved with nicer certification classes that NTC offers, I think that's the best way to really start learning and understanding the meaning of why we're doing what we do. And at what point in your career does learning stop? Never it doesn't whatsoever because you learn and sometimes you, of course, we're all human, we make mistakes, and uh some of the mistakes that you make uh uh can come back and uh I want to say bite you in the in the keister. Uh so to speak, uh going forward, uh you'll never stop learning. If you stop learning, I think it's time to reevaluate what you're doing. For sure.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of learning, guys, there is a very important part of NFPA 72 that, you know, Charles, and this goes back to sitting down and reading the code like a novel, which is something we don't encourage doing, but there is a part of NFP 872 that we do encourage this in, and that would be chapter three, which is definitions. Charles, how important is chapter three of NFPA 72 in terms of understanding fire alarm?
SPEAKER_01It's essential not just for NASAT testing or certification testing, it's essential for everyday work as well. The language of the code is the language of our industry, or it should be. When we talk to each other as industry professionals, it's a common language that we share. Knowing that language starts with understanding the definitions in chapter three.
SPEAKER_00And I know you had some personal experience with using chapter three and asking people to look up the term Pulse Station in Chapter Three or in NFPA 72, I should say. And how did that work out for you?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I think I think something like this is uh is I'm gonna say a perfect teaching moment in our class. Uh I would ask the class as a group, open NFPA 72 and uh try to find a word pole station. I it it has to be in there, folks. Just I want you to find it in uh chapter three, definitions which describe the type of device and the usage of the device. The word pull station. We'll have guys go into the book and actually look, we'll have some people say in the class, normally, normally in in some of the classes, that well, that word's not in, that's not what we use. I said I use that word every day. I said go to my truck and get the pull stations, let's install them. But based upon that, it can't find the word pull station in the code.
SPEAKER_02Do you guys understand why? It's not in the heart of the code, but Charles. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01We don't uh the code doesn't call it a pull station.
SPEAKER_03It is a different term. But we use the word pull station, fellas. Why are you using it in the code? It's just not a technical term. It's slang. Bingo, and that's exactly what I use in my class for that perfect teaching moment. I tell them, you know what, we have a lot of words that we toss around this industry that are accepted words in the code and words that we hear every day. Pull station, horn strobe, notification appliances, etc. But is the word Pulse Station in the code? I I I have one particular moment I in my class I said, look, I'll give someone a hundred bucks, and I pulled a hundred dollars out of my wallet. I said, This is yours, if you could find the word pole station in the code. How do you think that turned out?
SPEAKER_00Now I know why that hundred dollars appeared on your expense report.
SPEAKER_01Don't ask a question unless you're absolutely sure what the answer is.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Well, I knew where the answer was found, uh, and the answer is found actually uh in a particular portion of the code that actually i it talks it talks about uh protective covers in that area. Actually, it's in annex A17.17.9. And it actually said protective covers, also called PulseStation Protectors. And Whitney knows someone in my class has been studying the code and actually went to that reference point. And yes, I did put it on the expense report, fellas.
SPEAKER_00Well, great. Finally, guys, I'd like to talk about uh, and I'm gonna turn this over to Charles to introduce the discussion. I like to call this one Charles's daycare dilemma. Charles, tell us about your daycare dilemma.
SPEAKER_01Uh, my two grandchildren go to a Montessori school that's in a church. So one room in the church is used for the Montessori school. They're adding on to it, and the question came up: what are the fire alarm requirements for a daycare of that nature? Uh in this state, the IBC is used and in FPA 72 is used, and the IBC is confusing on this particular subject. Uh Ed, you've dealt with daycares in your professional career. What typically do you see?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh normally, normally in in in this state, NFPA 101 is used based upon the occupy requirement for daycare. And people don't understand that with when you have a daycare within a building, what has to happen within the rest of the building? I have to toss that out to the rest of you guys. Do we have to meet the same compliance in the rest of the building as the daycare? It all depends on the construction also within a building. Okay. So uh my my experience has been a lot of daycares. As a matter of fact, if I may bring a story up just from this past week, I was uh into the upper part of Pennsylvania uh actually doing uh a uh fire alarm design on a building that is a daycare. It's a three-story daycare. Uh first a basement level below grade, first level, and then above second grade, uh second level, excuse me, is uh is a play area gym area. When I walked into the facility, I was wondering why am I not seeing anything as far as life safety? No fire extinguishers, I didn't see a pool station, no smoke detectors, and the requirements for that are very very specific in the code what the requirements are for a poll for a daycare center. And I do not know, and I asked this question, when was the certificate of occupancy issued for this place to the uh person I was speaking with? And they couldn't answer that. Because do you think the authority having jurisdiction in my mind would they allow this place to open up without any type of fire alarm system? No sprinkler system. So consequently, I I was called in to do a design on the building and uh to draw a set of prints up for them.
SPEAKER_00Charles and I were discussing about whether his instance, because it is part of a church, whether it's classified as an I-4 or as a group E in the IBC, since he's in an IBC area. And the IBC talks about in the definitions chapter in chapter three about the difference. And this is one of those ones that we could see going either way, that it could be theoretically classified as a group E, which would have a different requirement than if it was an I-4. And my ultimate response to Charles was about this. Well, this is something that the architect's gonna have to make a decision on, or the AHJ. Now, you know, I'm not an architect, I'm actually a city planner. So um, you know, I joined the Van Buren boys and they told me you don't have to be an architect, I could think bigger and be a city planner. And I was hoping you would catch that joke. I did. I have the handshake also, if you want to go with that. Yeah, I was gonna say show me the handshake. Right. Little Seinfeld reference. So um my experience as a city planner was not helpful in that instance. But uh that is something that the AHJ or the architect uh and uh the discussion became too about what does the certificate of occupancy say? Because this is a retrofit. And if uh as Ed said in his building, maybe an existing building, maybe this building's been there for a long time, uh, this is one of those ones that a higher authority probably is going to have to be involved in the decision or give us some guidance on it. Also, we looked at IBC Section 508 about mixed-use occupancies, and evidently this changed a couple of additions ago, uh, that now there's a requirement for a three-hour barrier. There used to be a requirement for a two-hour barrier, a couple code cycles back. Now it's a three-hour barrier, and the requirements are more convoluted than they used to be as well. So this is definitely one that my advice or my not advice, my discussion with Charles was they probably ought to consult the AHJ and consult an architect about exactly what that classification is or is going to be.
SPEAKER_01And Brian also brought up a point. There's a reference to A3, group A3 in there as well, depending on the the uh requirements or structure of the building. It gets really convoluted in uh daycare situations from an IBC perspective.
SPEAKER_03A3 has a long list of types of occupancies. I'm uh I'm getting ready to uh design a fire alarm system for a plan of fitness, and it uh it's it's an A3 uh based upon the type of occupancy and uses of of the building. Uh but also a lot of other things can fall into that place. It's it's by knowing and understanding how the code works, as we want to get back to that original concept, it's very important when you make that decision, how it's classified. And Brian, if I could touch on what you said, it really begins and ends with the AHJ also. What those requirements, and he'll he would have to come in and take a look. You know, Charles, was there a fire alarm system in this building uh that you went to? But there is Montessori Church.
SPEAKER_01So it meets the requirements of a group. Bay occupancy.
SPEAKER_03Was there voice evac in the in the building? Uh no. Okay, so it did the occupancy level that it didn't require it at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Well, very interesting, guys, because uh uh people could make a determination based upon what they feel is their determination and how the code is saying how it should be, but really when you go to present that to the AHJ, it that's where the rubber meets the road.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. For example, that uh three-story daycare you were talking about, obviously you did not make the decision as to whether or not that building required a fire alarm. That was made for you by the AHJ or by the code official who said, yeah, fire alarm's required. And it's important that we remember that it's from the fire alarm perspective that there are uh forces in play, so to speak, such as the AHJ, such as the architect, that will make that determination of classification, and then we design based on that classification. And Planet Fitness being an A3 is very interesting to me because I would think that would be maybe a business uh, you know, or certainly not a daycare, not an I4 or an E, but uh, but it could be uh a business classification. I thought too. Yeah, and there's all kinds of interesting internations in this. And one thing we got to remember is we are not code officials, we're fire alarm people, and we we have to look at what is given to us and go from there. We can certainly have a discussion, but we don't make the decision.
SPEAKER_03It's an amazing thing how how the plan of fitness, if I may say, the occupancy is going to be 1,012 in that yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, I think it's a good point that the codes can't cover every single thing. Having an authority outside of the codes to make certain determinations is important.
SPEAKER_03You know, and even if you design a fire alarm system, you bring the code official, let's use the daycare again, you design it based upon what you know about the code. Uh, for example, I had a.7 issue with smoke detectors at one time in a daycare. And uh the authority came in, not the authority that approved my prints, but another authority that came in and did a final inspection. And I was wrong based upon his determination. So it's very important that all the players meet and understand what's happening with the project.
SPEAKER_00Well, you've been married for a number of years, Ed, so you're used to being wrong, right? Correct? Every day. Every day 43 years.
SPEAKER_03I've come to accept it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, exactly. Well, guys, I want to appreciate uh thank you again for the lively discussion. And uh, Ed, thanks again for taking the time with us. Good luck with your inspection and testing today. Thank you so much. Thank you all again for joining us, and I hope everybody tunes in for the next edition of Temporal 3.