NTC's Temporal 3
National Training Center's (NTC) Bryan McLane, Charles Aulner, and Chris Godwin discuss all things fire alarm, low voltage, NICET, and more. With occasional special guests.
NTC's Temporal 3
Episode 20 | Upcoming Code Changes and more.
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In this episode, Richard Roberts from Honeywell discusses the importance of training, upcoming code changes, and industry standards in fire alarm systems. He shares insights on technology shifts, code development processes, and the future of fire safety regulations.
Welcome everyone to this edition of the Temporal Three Fire Alarm Podcast, where we talk all about fire alarm. We have a special guest with us today, Mr. Richard Roberts. Richard, welcome.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thank you, Brian, and it's great to see you again.
SPEAKER_01Same here. And as always, I'm joined by my co-host, Mr. Charles Ulner. Good morning, Charles. Good day. So, Rich, I'd like to start with you and asking you uh tell us about your title at Honeywell and what you do.
SPEAKER_02Um, great question. Uh, my official title is Senior Industry Affairs Manager. And I often get the question well, what the heck is an industry affairs manager? But you know, my primary responsibility is um, you know, participation in the codes and standards development process, as we all know. Uh the fire industry is driven by codes and standards, okay? I think I'm on 13 NFPA technical committees. I'm very involved in the ICC uh process and um also get involved in UL product standards. Uh in addition to that, um I'm also uh managing the uh industry relations or trade associations. And then lastly, uh probably one of the uh more fun aspects of my job, I get to do cool stuff like this and uh training, whether it's in-person, virtual, uh podcast. Uh so that's kind of a 50,000-foot overview of what I do. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01So what you're saying is, Rich, that uh you're the guy to blame for all those things that the fire alarm technicians don't like in the codes, right?
SPEAKER_02Um exactly. And plus, you know, as people always say, do you guys really intend to make the uh language uh and the requirements as confusing as possible? And no, that's not our intent, but it seems like it comes out there more often than not. So yeah, I got big shoulders, blame me.
SPEAKER_01I hear you. So one thing that we like to talk about in this podcast is training. How important, and you mentioned doing training as well, how important do you feel training is to the industry?
SPEAKER_02It's uh critical. Um, you know, it's definitely critical in um intrusion, uh access control, video, but it might be even more important uh as it relates to fire. Um, you know, it's critically important to have the training on the product that you're installing or the products that you're installing. So um, you know, let's just forget about the code requirements right now. You know, you really need to be intimately uh knowledgeable on the uh the fire alarm products that you're uh installing because, hey, it's life safety, okay? Uh but then also, you know, uh as I said just a minute ago, the industry is driven by codes and standards. Uh nobody, no building owner um installs a fire alarm system because they think they may need it. It's required, mandated by codes and standards. And codes and standards are updated typically every three years. So there's always new requirements coming in, and um you know you have to be knowledgeable on that. So you have a code-compliant installation. So training is critical. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Charles, anything to add to that based on your field experience?
SPEAKER_00I agree with you, Rich, so much. Uh product training, technology changes all the time, and we need to stay current with that as professionals in the industry. Uh the second thing is codes change all the time, just as you mentioned, every three years, it's a cycle. We have to stay current with those. Those two critical aspects of life safety are important. Uh the second thing is from way back when, I'm really excited, Rich, that you're on this podcast with us because you were a big inspiration for me. I remember seeing your name with NYSAT 4 listed under it, and I was in awe of that back in the day. And I was like, oh my gosh, he got nice at 4. I can go for it too. So uh thank you for the inspiration that you provided me behind the scenes that you didn't.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, uh the three of us, we all go way back uh 30 plus years. Um, you know, that's a great thing about this industry is that the relationships that you build, you know, and uh that's that that means a lot to me. Absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, next thing I'd like to discuss is code, and there's some interesting things going on with uh one of the oldest, not the oldest, but one of the oldest technologies in uh fire alarm communications, and that is POTS lines, telephone lines. There's some interesting stuff going on. And Rich was kind enough to share a document with us from the California State Fire Marshal communicating to building owners about the elimination of POTS and some of the requirements for MFENs, managed facilities, voice network providers. And uh, there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on there in the industry. Rich, you want to elaborate on that a little bit?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, you know, pots lines, uh, and that's plain old telephone systems. Um, in other words, the copper line from the protected premises uh to the supervising station back uh to the um jurisdiction's communications centers. Um, you know, that's an old, old technology. And, you know, uh the Federal Communications Commission several years ago, uh, they um uh basically told the carriers that they no longer have to support that. Um now that said, you know, it's still being used uh throughout the country, but probably more in the rural areas. I would say the major metropolitan areas, they've already, you know, pretty much switched that over to um you know other technologies. And um, you know, as it relates to MFVN, you know, that uh operates and it uh emulates the way the POTS technology used to work, okay? And it's still permitted in chapter 26 of NFPA 72, but uh there's a lot of constraints to it. Um, you know, we don't make it easy to use MFVN. And the reason for that is um, you know, if you look at all the carriers, whether it's ATT or another carrier, it's the responsibility of the subscriber, okay, the business owner, the homeowner, to uh maintain that system. So if the carrier decides, which happens all the time, right? Uh they make uh changes to their uh infrastructure, they make changes, uh upgrade software and stuff like that. So what may work today is not, could not, may not work, you know, next week, next month, uh, and so on and so forth. So, you know, my recommendation is that going forward, you really need to use the technology like cellular or uh IP technology.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Big big concern there knows performance-based alternatives really are the way to go. And you eliminate, and even if you have copper now, even if you have pots now, as Rich said, you know, due to the national broadband plan, you may not have it in the future. So now you have to go back to your customer and say, hey, uh, your phone lines are going away. Even if you if you even know about it, that's a lot of times you don't even get told about it or find out at the last minute when you don't get the test signals. And uh, you know, just step up now and sell that technology now rather than uh rather than wait. Charles, take on that?
SPEAKER_00Well, one thing I'm curious about is uh the association's perspective with clocks going away. We have so many dealers out there that have thousands and thousands of accounts that are still connected that way. So has the association pushed anything in regard to this? Or uh how's that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think if you look at the monitoring association, they really are uh advocating for you know customers, dealers to, you know, upgrade to performance-based technologies and move away from um, you know, MFVN or POTS because really that's the wave of the future. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, the last topic of discussion that we'd like to talk about today, and Rich, this really uh becomes incumbent on you, is upcoming code changes. Now, prior to this podcast, you and I had discussed some interesting code changes that are coming up in NFPA 101 for fuel gas detection. And there's some other things uh recently that uh you and I have discussed. I'd like to turn it over to you to let you talk about these.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, uh probably uh one in interesting aspect um relating to fuel gas detection is that it I really look at it to be very similar to carbon monoxide detection back probably uh 2007-ish, okay. You know, um back then the NFPA they just uh uh created an installation standard that was NFPA 720, okay? And uh so you had uh product standards, and then you had an installation standard, and then the next thing was okay, let's start uh let's try to get this into the model codes to mandate it, and then as the states adopt, legislatively adopt the model codes, which makes the requirements legally binding, then you're going to have um CO detection installed in occupancies. And it started out um in the residential code, the international residential code, and the scope of that covers detached one and two family dwellings and townhomes, not more than three stories. And then it started going to uh, you know, other codes, and then really as it stands right now, uh all occupancy classifications with a known CO source is required to uh install CO detection. Well, we're kind of in the same place with fuel gas detection. Uh fuel gas um is different than carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide is um, you know, generally not flammable or explosive, but obviously it's very toxic and can be um deadly. Uh fuel gas, uh, you know, natural gas or propane, uh it is very combustible and flammable. And, you know, it's very common to read in any news uh outlet uh nowadays of you know an explosion or a fire caused by a fuel gas leak, whether it's inside the home or in the utility uh piping infrastructure to the home or to the building. Okay. And um actually the National Transportation and Safety Board, NTSB, uh they've made a recommendation. Uh of course, they can't mandate anything, but they made a recommendation that um fuel gas detection requirements be added to the ICC and NFPA model codes. So finally getting around to your question, okay, is um for the 2027 edition of NFPA 101, which will be uh published and released later this year, I'm cautiously optimistic that there will be requirements to install C uh fuel gas detection in new hotels, apartment buildings, and new K-12 schools that have a known uh fuel gas source. Now I say cautiously optimistic, okay. Um, you know, there's an opportunity in the NFPA uh codes and standards development process, kind of a last-ditch effort for someone to say, okay, I we don't like what the committee did. And they can um file a NITMAM, notice of intent to make an amending motion, uh, and then that will be discussed uh for the uh not only with the committee, the respective committee, but the NFPA membership that's attending the annual NFPA meeting, which will be in June of this year. Now, um, you know, the vote in uh those three committees, it was probably like 12 to 2 in favor of it. So uh I really, like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic that A, no NIPMAMs will be filed. But if they are, I'm very um optimistic that uh they will be rejected in June during the technical session at the NFPA uh conference.
SPEAKER_00So I have a question on that for you. Yeah, uh no no, Richard of product is always an issue. Does Honeywell manufacture fuel gas detection devices?
SPEAKER_02Uh no, not at this time. Um in fact, um, you know, uh as we're relating to detectors, uh, that's the type of detection technology, whether it's smoke, heat, carbon monoxide, or fuel gas, uh, they're designed and to be listed to be connected to a control unit. Alarms are not. That's the type of product that you can go to consumer outlets like Lowe's, Home Depot, or Monard's here in the Midwest, okay. Uh there is uh ample product on the alarm side, but as it relates to the detector side right now, um it's it's very limited. So I'm sure that uh other detector manufacturers, okay, um, they're they're really working on it. Uh I will say, uh, it just kind of popped into my head. I believe, and I might get fired for saying this, I believe McCurico has a fuel gas uh detector, okay. Uh see, this is a great uh part of my job. You know, I'm doing what's right for public safety and the industry. So uh for our listeners today, they may want to go uh and check that out at McCurico.
SPEAKER_01So, Rich, you mentioned something about the uh the code committee, and something that we often don't think about on our side is that it's not just the fire alarm people, the manufacturers, uh the AHJs that are involved in code development, that there's building owners and building owner type organizations that are involved in it as well. And we all know that building owners certainly want to spend as much money as possible to keep those building occupants safe, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02They got unlimited pockets, deep pockets, yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and that's uh why sometimes that things don't make it through the committee, sometimes things that make sense or may get objected to, because it's gonna cost them money. But that's you know, that's the way it works, why the way the code code committees work.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, if you look at the NFPA process, uh they want to make sure that all the technical committees uh are balanced, okay? Uh and you just mentioned some of them. Uh, you know, you got manufacturers, you got installation companies, you got uh code authorities, uh, you also have academia involved, end users. Um, I'm probably leaving out uh, you know, special experts, insurance, exactly. And they want to make sure that each one of these stakeholders don't have enough people on a committee to drive something through. So, you know, typically these committees they have 30 people uh on them, and um, you know, they uh only allow so many manufacturers, okay? Uh they only allow so many code authorities, okay? Uh, and you know, that makes sure that it's a fair and balanced uh committee. Now, obviously, that raises a lot of tension at times because trying to get everybody on the same page and to move the ball forward uh is whoops is very difficult. But generally speaking, though, uh we all do work together and um very rarely does each one of these stakeholders get everything they want. But we all, I know compromise is a dirty word today, especially in time uh politics, but we do uh reach a uh a compromise and move the ball forward.
SPEAKER_01There you go. Well, Rich, I want to thank you again for joining us today. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day. I know you got a lot going on.
SPEAKER_00As we all do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I know you in particular. I know you're a busy man, and uh, do appreciate the feedback and the insight as to what's going on. Uh again, that'll uh conclude today's podcast. Thank you both, you fellas, for joining us today, and I hope to see you again uh in a future podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it, Tom.
SPEAKER_01Thank you both, and uh yeah, I'd love to come back.