Episode 21 | Elevator Recall and Shutdown and more.

Discover life-saving innovations in fire detection with Scott Robertson from Safe Fire Detection. This episode of Temporal 3 dives into advanced air sampling and linear heat detection technologies that are transforming safety in elevator systems. Learn how these solutions reduce technician risks and comply with the latest codes, ensuring safer environments without breaking the bank.

Perfect for fire alarm professionals and safety managers, this episode offers practical insights into modernizing your fire safety strategies. Stay ahead of industry standards and protect your team with cutting-edge technology.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome everyone to the Temporal Three Podcast. Happy to be here today, and today we're going to talk all about fire alarm. Joined today, I am joined by Charles Olner. Charles, good morning. Good day. And our special guest, Mr. Scott Robertson with Safe Fire Detection. Good morning, Scott.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Good morning. How are you all?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Oh, we're good. We're good. So, Scott, since you're our guest today, tell us a little bit about yourself and about what you do at Safe Fire Detection.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

For sure. Well, again, thanks for having me today. My name's Scott Robertson. I'm Vice President of Engineering at Safe Fire Detection. I'm nice at level four on fire alarm.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

What uh you know, pretty much I handle everything from product development to code compliance, you know, design evaluation, that sort of thing. And we do specialty initiating devices, various forms of detection, and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Awesome. So it sounds like you do all the work that the boss doesn't want to do. Exactly, exactly. I can relate to that. Charles is my boss, and I get to do all the work that he doesn't want to do. Get to work. Get to work. Well, Scott, one of the things we like to talk about in this podcast is the significance and importance of training. How important is training from your perspective as a manufacturer?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Oh, it's probably number one on our list. You know, it's to the point that we offer all of our training for free to our customer base because we never want a dollar amount to be a hurdle in that training. We want people to know what they're doing with the equipment in the application and just in general to make sure that these systems go incorrectly, get designed correctly, and are maintained correctly.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Absolutely. You guys have some pretty sophisticated stuff, so I imagine that that's uh definitely a learning curve and something that's very training intensive for sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Definitely. And it's uh relatively straightforward once you take a peek behind the curtain, I like to say. But it's definitely not something that people see day to day, so a lot of people aren't familiar with it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Right, right, yeah, exactly. And uh we'll talk more about your product later in the program, a couple of things specifically that meet a specific application. So, how long have you been nice at certified? Level four, we don't meet a lot of level fours. There's not a lot of you guys out there.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, so uh I went and actually kind of brute forced my nice set a couple years ago, I think four or so now. So I I've been doing this for 16 years officially. And um actually you your guys' Red Book helped me significantly going through all that.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Oh, that's awesome. Glad to hear that. Well, Charles is also a level four. Uh he has screw turning experience like you do as well. I'm a level three myself because my entire career I've been in this for 45 years, but most of my career prior to NTC was distribution, so I never went out and turned screws, which is probably a good thing if you've ever seen it.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Oh, one interesting thing, uh Scott, what drove you to go for level four? That's not an easy undertaking.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yes. So Safe is a family-owned company, and I'm actually second generation of ownership. It's you know, we have a very mature industry, and someone my age coming in, you know, adding a couple extra letters definitely helps people trust that I know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I always like to tell our students the more acronyms after your name, the better off you are, the more marketable you are.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Exactly. And one thing with NISAP certification that we found is it actually holds some meaning in our industry. When people see that it's not just fluff, they realize that you went through uh a lot over an extended period to get that NICEP level four. It's not something for the faint of heart, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Uh definitely. It's a lot of commitment, not just in terms of the work experience requirements, but the studying and the various aspects of it all, because it gets into a lot of the well, as you guys know, the the nitty-gritty of very, you know, a handful of codes that a lot of people might not use in their day-to-day work.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

That's you bring up.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Sure, sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yeah, we found that not to be the case ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

I like to say to our students about the nice it exam, you're gonna be in parts of the code that you didn't even know existed. That you're gonna see questions about stuff that you hadn't even considered because we think about fire alarm and we think about 72, and most technicians are very narrowly focused on certain parts of it that they work in every day, and there's a whole universe of stuff in 72 that we don't even think about because we don't deal with it. And uh that the nice it exam is a great way to learn the entirety of the code rather than the parts you just the you then you just know, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Right? I have a question for Scott. For training, how do you conduct your training? Do you have uh in-person training? Do you do it online?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So uh most of our training we do online and break it up depending on the audience. So you know, training is always, you know, there's two main hurdles when it normally comes to it. It's price, and if someone's getting trained, they're not doing something that's generating money for the company they're working for. So all of our training is really focused on the specific audience. You know, we've got a training modules for technicians, then we do design training on teams kind of like this with the engineers and designers, and then we have actually like specific in uh sales training via teams as well. And uh we do also do it in person, but nowadays most of the stuff is handled via teams or you know, electronic training modules and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Right, right. Yeah, training uh does take technicians out of the field, it it's tough. Brian has a saying about that uh and how important training is. Brian, why don't you hit us with that?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Refresh my memory. What is that? Oh yes. What's what's worse than training your people and have them leave? Not training them and have them stay. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

That's actually Zig Ziggler.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

I stole that one from Zig Ziggler, but that's very, very true. And uh you're right that uh it really is important. They can do their job a lot better if they understand what they're doing. And yes, it is a sacrifice. Yes, your your uh technicians are the heartbeat of your organization, they're they're what bring in the revenue, but uh if they are more effective at doing their job, they're gonna bring in more revenue.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Well, and uh from my personal experience, I worked for a gentleman who had no loyalty to product whatsoever. His loyalty was sale of the week. So we ended up installing all sorts of different stuff, different installation requirements. We had to learn a new system every time we put something in. And I mean, that takes a lot of time. So having that uh brand loyalty and sticking with one product I think makes a big difference in terms of efficiency of your technician.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Absolutely. Well, gentlemen, the next topic I'd like to talk about, and this is a topic that causes a lot of consternation with our customers and our students and in general in the industry, is a favorite topic of fire alarm technicians, elevator recall and elevator shutdown. Does Scott, from your experience, do your uh customers have a lot of uh issues with that particular requirement?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

It's there's definitely some confusion as to why it's kind of being pushed and enforced, and especially the you know, the newest versions of code that change how a couple things work. Umce they kind of start understanding it, and I actually had the pleasure of meeting uh some of the engineers that were on the subcommittee for this section. Uh and once you they kind of actually start understanding why certain decisions were made, they kind of start getting behind it and realizing, okay, yeah, it's it at least makes sense as to why it's set up the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, and that is that is an application where we're working with one of the other trades, you know, one of the other building trades, and that's always presents a challenge. I mean, we're used to working with the sprinkler people. We work quite frequently with them. ANSI uh A17.1 governors elevator recall and shutdown requirements, so the requirements in 72 are actually based on that. And uh our I always like to say to the fire alarm people, our responsibility ends at the relay. We don't control where the elevator goes, the elevator people control that. All we can do is provide the output. But an important part for us and a part that we have the expertise in that the elevator people typically do not is the detectors. And that's that's where uh it really becomes interesting. So there are two parts to this. There is the recall section and 21.3 where smoke detector that requires smoke detection, does permit other options for uh smoke detection, because we know that elevator hoistways in particular are not ideal environments for spot type smoke detectors. Um they do require smoke detection in the elevator lobby of each floor, machine room and hoistway where this hoistway is sprinklered. And further states that the hoistway smoke shall be listed for the environmental conditions. So now if you have a smoke in the hoistway, find a spot type smoke, which is what we commonly use for fire detection, that's listed for a hoist way. I've not been able to find one, a spot type anyway. Uh, I know there are other products that we're going to discuss in a few minutes here, but there are it's a ch it's a challenging situation. And the whole point of uh recall is to return the elevator to a safe floor, open the doors, let the occupants get out, take the elevator out of service, and make it available for the fire department. I mean, it it really is a life safety function. Charles, what's your take on this on recall?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah, uh the complexity comes in with alternate floor and that sort of thing as well. And like you said, Brian, we go to the relay and then it's the uh elevators people to set all that up. But as fire alarm professionals, we have to have an understanding of how all that works. And the importance of those lobby smoke detectors in terms of recall. So making sure that's coordinated properly and functions the right way is part of the final inspection that most AHAs look for. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Scott, anything to add to that based on your discussions?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, I I think the other thing that I personally have been learning more about as we've gotten more and more involved with this kind of application is the you know increased use of elevators for the actual emergency response. You know, elevators that are per specifically designed for, you know, fitting gurneys and that sort of thing to get you know people out, whether it's it might not be fire related, just emergency response in general. Um or you know, how we're seeing elevators now that are actually designed to be fire rated and operated during a fire event.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

So it it's you know well, you'll start to come across plaques where it says this elevator is designed to be operated during a fire event, and you can actually start using it to evacuate the building. Wow. It's definitely not as common as the traditional elevator still, but we are starting to see some applications for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Right, right. Wow, interesting. The other part of elevator recall and shutdown is the shutdown part, and that is typically accomplished with a heat detector. And uh we want to shut down the elevator prior to operation of the sprinkler. And it's funny, and I used to joke about this because I used to say, well, we don't want water raining down in an elevator car because we're going to electrocute people. And that was actually an incorrect statement. Charles, can you believe I made an incorrect statement?

SPEAKER_03 12:33

No, but I was under that same perception myself until we you specifically discovered the real purpose.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yes. So I investigated a little bit further, read a little bit further about the ANSI requirements and the intent of the ANSI requirements. And actually, ANSI wants that engagement of shutting down the elevator so the brakes can engage before water rains down because wet brakes in an elevator car make unstable elevators. So it's kind of like the brakes in your vehicle. When they get wet, they don't work as well. Same thing with this. So it kind of was something that was a common misconception for me. And yes, the electrical safety is part of it, but the bigger concern is we want the brakes engaged before water comes raining down. So we put that elevator heat detector within two feet of the um sprinkler head in the hoistway and at a lower temperature. And typically we're activating a shunt breaker. So again, we're dealing with another trade. We're dealing with the electricians and bringing the bringing the relay or the connection to their shunt breaker. And this really leads into what uh I'd like you to discuss next, Scott, is uh hoistway detection shall be accessible from outside the hoistway. This is in 2137, I believe it was added in 2019. Yeah, uh, 72 2019. Yep. And why is that a concern? Why was the code changed for that? Well, if anybody's ever worked with an elevator, not that not the trash elevator people, but do you want to put, as a fire alarm technician, your life in the hands of somebody you just met who hopefully they know how to do their job, and you're gonna get in a hoist plane and install a detector and hope that they know what they're doing and not kill you while you're putting that equipment in.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

I don't want to put my life in the hands of another fire alarm technician, let alone an elevator guy.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Very true, very true. Yeah, and like you mentioned, that that is kind of you know the the main goal behind why they added that verbiage. Um, you know, I I was, as I mentioned, I was able to meet with a couple of people that were on that part of the subcommittee, and they had found at the you know, the time frame that they had evaluated, it was you know several decades worth of data, they had found that there were orders of magnitude more technician deaths in elevator shafts from the actual PM work than there ever was related to an actual fire event. So the the maintenance of these systems were actually hurting people more than they were helping people.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

And that their concern was people would use this data to say, hey, we need change, so let's not put anything in the elevator shafts. But that's not a you know a great design principle either. So they needed to try to address this problem, and the best way to do it is to make it so that the fire alarm technician doesn't have to go into that elevator shaft. So requiring the maintenance inspection, that testing being able to be done outside the hoist way is why that verbiage was added. So that tech, you know, you can still interface with the the um elevator and uh you know electrical uh disciplines, but that fire alarm technician doesn't need to actually get into that hoist way anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

So I guess our suspicions were correct, Charles. The elevator people are out to get us. No doubt. So, Scott, you guys uh safe fire detection has some interesting solutions that will allow you to comply with that requirement, keep your technicians safe. I didn't realize it was that big of an issue. I knew it was a safety issue just from talking to people that do that work, but um, the orders of magnitude thing is really a scary thing and the amount of injuries, unnecessary injuries and deaths. So, what solution does safe fire detection offer for this?

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Mm-hmm. So uh we've really been uh pushing uh air sampling smoke detection as well as linear heat detection for this application. Um, you know, a lot of times when this started first getting rolled out uh across the country, and I would mention the air sampling, you know, people you know was thinking that it's overkill. You know, that people have this you know understanding or this uh common misconception that air sampling detection is only for data centers or highly specific, you know, very sensitive environments. But uh yeah, it looks like Charles is in that boat as well.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

You know, nowadays this equipment can be you know desensitized and set to the point where it's equivalent to our traditional spot detector. And uh it's at a price point now where we're even seeing it just in normal applications, you know, once you get north of the eight spots, it's actually cheaper to install an air sampling system. So, you know, being able to take a you know, our air sampling detector, we we recommend our uh pro point, and we can do a bank of elevator shafts with one detector up to 10 stories with a single device.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And now you you know the detector is close to the elevator shaft, you run your pipe network into the shaft itself, come back out to a test point, program and commissioning, and well, most of the commissioning other than the transport time test, and then all your annual PMs going forward, there's no need for that tech to get in that space.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Wow. That's flipping awesome! Yeah, I love that. Well, I'm I'm sure our listeners are gonna be excited about that and the price point I didn't realize. And uh, from my limited experience with uh air sampling network, I mean I'm always always impressed with how quickly it responds compared to a spot type smoke. And I was as I was with Charles, I always thought, okay, well, it's uh data centers and stuff like that, or one one application I heard was power generation facilities around the turbines. And I always thought of it as a very high-end, very uh basically uh you know, a fast responding type of detection. But it sounds like you guys have a solution that's both very price competitive and saves lives.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Exactly. And you and when it comes to install as well, you know, you for the lack of a better way to put it, you're installing a plastic pipe network. So you're not having to pull Ben, run conduit, then pull wire to devices and everything else. It installs significantly quicker as well. And that's probably the reason why we manufacture red pipe, which is the only UL-approved pipe and fittings for air sampling detection in the industry. You know, we want to make sure that we're using products that are designed and approved for the application they're being used in.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Absolutely. So we we talked about smoke detection for the uh recall portion. What about the shutdown portion? How do you all handle that?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, so the linear heat detection has really been our go-to for that. You know, the the big requirement, like you said, in that shutdown is it has to be within two feet of the sprinkler. So you have to be able to have a device that gets close to that sprinkler head wherever it's going to end up being inside the elevator shaft. Linear heat detection compared to air sampling, more people I find are familiar with it. But you know, for those that aren't, effectively, you know, it looks like a two by 19 gauge wire that's designed to short once it gets to a specific temperature. So you again start outside your elevator shaft, go penetrate into the elevator shaft. Effectively, you're running a wire within two feet of all the sprinkler heads inside the elevator shaft, then you come back out to a test switch. So all of your you know you're doing every year is you come to the test switch, you flip the switch, test the system electronically, double check the resistance, flip it off, and you're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

But again, save lives. And I I think uh you all would agree there's nothing better that fire alarm people do than running wire. That's what we do. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

So to that point, uh, can I attach that linear heat detector to the sprinkler pipe to get to that sprinkler head?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

So that in this application, normally not. But there are some applications you can. So it normally it says, you know, you can't attach this anything that isn't a part of the sprinkler system to the sprinkler system. Um in pre-action systems, you can because the linear heat detection is a component of the sprinkler system. So in this application, most of the time you can't because it's not considered a part of the pre-action system or a part of the sprinkler system.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Brian, I hadn't considered that. Have you thought of that aspect before yourself?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

No, I hadn't actually. I always told people no, you can't attach to it. And it makes sense in a pre-action or a deluge system because of detection control, and possibly even a special hazard system. I don't know uh, you know, if the special twelve or two thousand one uh say specifically anything about it, but yeah, generally um we tell people follow any C attached to the permanent building structure, and that's not the sprinkler pipe. And we know that the sprinkler people like to cut wires if they're attached to their pipes, so that always happens to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Um, you know, the it's ri really been, you know, that's our recommended way for running preaction systems since you know 13 says you gotta be within five feet of the sprinkler head for those systems anyway. And since we're a component of the sprinkler system, it simplifies the install.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

So how about spacing of linear heat detection? Obviously, in a hoist way, uh, you're not talking about a huge area unless it's a really, really large elevator, but um, what about spacing guidelines for linear heat detection in general?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

So the big spacing guideline, well, for for the elevator shaft at least is that two feet within the sprinkler head. Right. So pretty much making sure that you check that box, it's gonna be wherever it's gonna need to be. Right. Um, in terms of you know, general layouts, there are some considerations depending on the type of linear heat detection for derating based off ceiling height and you know, other typical design considerations for beams and uh slope ceilings and that sort of thing, which really you don't really run into for the elevator shaft.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Right, right. Awesome. Well, Scott, I want to thank you again for joining us today. Very interesting and informative, very excited about being able to talk to our customers, our students, about uh these offerings. What's your website? What is the best way for people to reach you if they have questions about your product?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Well, if you'd like, you know, our website is safefired.com. Um, or you know, you can email me personally at Scott with one T R at SafeFiredetection.com. Uh we also have actually published a hardbound design handbook for air sampling and linear heat detection. It's a great desk reference on hey, I've never designed this application. What what should I be keeping in mind? So you know that that's something as well that can be requested off of our website. Again, you know, education is a huge part of what we do, and uh, we want to make sure that with the specific things that we do in industry that people know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Brian, let's make sure we get a copy of that. I was gonna say that's my next email.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I'll make it happen. I'll make it happen. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Scott, where is safe detection located and where are you located?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

So we're out of Charlotte, North Carolina, and uh I'm out of the main office as well, but they fly me all over the place. So I go from Alaska to Argentina.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Wow. So I find that difficult to believe because I lived in Charlotte for 10 years, so did Brian, and people in Charlotte, North Carolina speak very differently than you do. That's where's your accent?

SPEAKER_01 24:47

My my family's from the south side of Chicago, but I I've been living in North Carolina for 30 years now. So it's okay. I j just have enough influence from outside the the state to avoid a lot of the accent, but it still comes out occasionally.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

I miss Sonny's real pit barbecue down there.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's getting harder and harder to find. I think there might be one in Charlotte now. Everything else is closed up.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

There's plenty of hole-in-the-wall barbecues, and those those are better.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

That is one great thing about North Carolina. I live in Asheville. Charles lives in South Dakota now, and uh yeah, it's uh one thing about North Carolina that I love is barbecue.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Oh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

There's always a wide variety of barbecue to find. You know, if you like Kansas City, you can find it. If you like mustard or vinegar base, you know, that there's always options.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, Scott, thank you again for joining us. Thank you, Scott.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yep.