Episode 26 | ASPs and more...

In this episode, industry expert Richard Roberts discusses the critical importance of training in fire alarm systems, the evolving technology in communication methods, and the future of ASPs and code updates. Gain insights into how codes are developed, the role of performance-based technology, and strategies to attract new talent to the industry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to this edition of the Temporal 3 Podcast, where we talk all about fire alarm. I'm joined by my co-host, Mr. Charles Mulner. Yay, good day. And Mr. Rich Roberts is our guest today.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Good morning, Rich. Good morning to the both of you, and very happy to be back for another uh episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Awesome. So, Rich, one of the things I'd like to talk about today is the importance of training. And you've been in this industry a long time, much as Charles and I have. And I think you have some interesting takes about the uh takes on the importance of training in our industry. How important is it for companies to train their techs and develop their technicians?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Excellent question, Brian. Um, you know, training is critical uh for all types of systems, uh, intrusion, access, CCTV, but it's even more critical for fire alarm systems. And why is that? And that is because of the uh codes and standards aspect. Um, you know, uh on the security side, um, you know, it is regulated, okay? But the fire alarm system is highly regulated. So uh you really need to be knowledgeable on the codes and standards that are adopted and enforced in your respective jurisdiction. And of course, you want to be trained on the product that uh you're installing because uh that is critical. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

And I would agree with that, yeah. And uh developing technicians, you know, training is an investment in technicians. We always talk to our customers about that. There's always the fear of oh, if I train their people, we're gonna leave. And it's like Zig Ziglar said, what's worse than training people and having them leave? Not training them and having them stay. So it's always an investment in the future of your people.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yep. Well, we agree. One thing that uh I'm concerned about for our industry is uh in our classes, we see more and more, how shall I say, seasoned white-bearded individuals and fewer younger folks. So getting the word out to younger folks about, hey, this is a great industry to be in, I think is a really, really important issue industry-wide. How do we attract those people to join this industry and get the training that they need?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah, I think um that is a challenge uh wherever I go, uh whether I'm talking uh to manufacturers, installation companies, uh AHJs, um, you know, there's just a uh real serious lack of uh young people coming in. And um, you know, as we get getting back to the gray-haired, bald uh people, you know, codes and standards, you know, they change all the time, you know, basically every three years. Um, and so you really need to keep up uh continuing education, even for us old people. But, you know, I don't have an answer for how to attract uh new blood, because this is something that you name the association. Um everyone is struggling with it. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

They don't have a fire alarm booth at career day in high school, do they?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Well, you know, that's I think where we need to start is because, you know, speaking for myself, I mean, college was never really suited for me. It wasn't a good fit. But the trades, I mean, you can go out and make a really good living as a quality, educated uh firearm technician. And it's really a it's a great career.

unknown 4:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

My opinion and my take isn't that we don't do enough to frame it as a trade, that electrical, plumbing, HVAC, they're really good at promoting it as a trade. And if we promote it more as a trade and low voltage in general, as a trade, and as Rich said, uh, you know, you don't need a college education to work in this industry. Uh and if you if we get develop a better job, do a better job as promoting it as a trade, something that you can come into that basically you're gonna learn OJT, you're gonna get paid while you're doing it, and as Rich said, it's gonna be something you have a career in that uh you can retire in 30 or 40 years and have a substantial uh nest egg to work from if you work hard in this industry. It's something that uh, you know, is beneficial. I'm I'm a uh great testament to that. 45 years, uh, I didn't finish college, but I think I've done fairly well for myself uh not having a college degree. Certainly better than a lot of my uh my associates who went on and get degrees.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, Brian, we don't need college in this industry. I mean, think about it. The code is so straightforward and easy to read, nobody will have any trouble deciphering that. Oh, Charles, you you have drank the Kool-Aid, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah, I mean, it's uh uh we've got I have a couple uh people that uh in uh product management, and you know, they uh often, you know, uh send me an email and they have a question. And of course they say, okay, Richard, do not give me code speak. Give me give me the answer in you know, simple layman's term. And you know, um uh you maybe I'm digressing here, but that is the goal of you know uh all the technical committees in NFPA 72 or NFPA 1 or 101 or the I codes. We really strive to make sure that uh the language is clear and that will make it enforceable. But you know, in the process of developing it, it doesn't always come out uh clear and enforceable language. So keep trying, Rich. Keep trying. Yeah, I've got another 20 years. Maybe I'll get it right by then.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

I like to say to people that the code is written by engineers with oversight by lawyers. And uh the engineers are making it technical, they're using the technical language because unfortunately, you do have to use very precise language in the code because it is subject to interpretation, so you have to be very precise and accurate in your language, and then the lawyers are there to make it legal, to make it enforceable. Because if you put something in the code that is not legally enforceable, it's kind of a moot point. Yep. Absolutely. So, guys, the next thing I'd like to talk about, speaking of codes, is NFPA 72's recognized communications methods from 26.6. There's been a lot of activity in this in recent years and uh a lot of changes going on in the way that our fire panels communicate to the supervising station. And uh I'm old enough to remember when DAX first became a thing. I can remember the old silent night panel that you had to buy an outboard module to uh have it support two phone lines, um, and uh uh you know, sold a bunch of those. And I remember when that came out, and that was like a really great thing. Rich, I'm sure you you've seen a lot over the years, and Charles, you as well, and the evolvement of those technologies. Uh one thing that changed with DAX a couple of editions back in the code. We used to do DAX uh two phone lines and 24-hour test. Now DAX are one phone line. This is back in 2013, uh, which is really not uh quite a long time ago now, but uh one phone line and six-hour test, with the second method being basically uh performance-based or radio. And uh that's an interesting change for sure. What have you guys seen, Rich? Go ahead, Rich. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I was gonna say, what have you seen radio-wise change? Um I I got a blank on that one. Um Okay, that's that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Well the technology in the radios have changed quite a bit. Uh back in the 90s, when I worked with w radios, they had uh what's seemed to be a much more limited utility and limited range, both uh in the industry. Now they're a lot more prevalent, they're a lot more powerful than they used to be. So there's that.

unknown 8:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Excellent. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

I think the up-and-coming technology, though, is performance-based being uh performance-based being a catch-all for IP and cellular. And Rich, I know this is an area that you have a uh particular amount of involvement with um and have done a lot of uh commentary on and sure certainly shared a lot of information with us about it. You want to talk about some of the things going on with performance-based?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah, you know, um, you know, the performance-based uh provision or section in 72, you know, it's instead of the way it was done in the past, it was very prescriptive for the particular type of communication technology, whether it's DAC or whether it was radio or whatever. And now it's more performance-based that you have a certain uh set of criteria uh that uh whatever technology that you're using uh has to meet. Uh, for example, um, you know, uh a certain amount of time that it has to report a trouble signal. It has to be the communication pathway, it has to be supervised, you know. And, you know, this is really needed because uh technology in this space is changing so dramatically that uh who knows what we're gonna have in another five years, you know, uh and new uh technology that uh comes along. So as long as it meets those uh the criteria in chapter 26, then you know, these uh technologies um should be okay. And obviously uh they have to be listed as complying with the applicable UL product standard.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Absolutely. One of the things that occurs when we use performance-based technology that we don't see typically with uh DAX or one-way or two-way radio is the presence of the ASP, the auxiliary service provider. And this has been fuel for recent changes to the code and upcoming changes as well. And Rich, I know this is an area, again, that you are particularly uh involved in or very interested in. Could you fill our audience in a little bit on what's going on with ASPs?

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Wow. Yeah, there is actually a lot going on. Um, you know, these ASPs, uh, you know, this product was uh hit the market uh probably five, six years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, but you know, it's an entity that um is located uh between the protected premises and the supervising station. So all the alarm trouble supervisory signals from the protected premise to the supervising station has to go through this uh ASP. And the ASP will um, you know, manipulate or change the uh data. And typically what it'll do is um it'll send uh notifications, information, data uh to the installation company, to the building uh facility uh manager, or to uh other entities, and it'll give them more information as to what is going on with the fire alarm system. Of course, uh chapter 26 of NFPA 72 requires the signals have to go through a supervising station before going to uh the uh 911 communications uh center of the jurisdiction. So the ASP is providing or offering a lot of feature-rich uh benefits uh for all the stakeholders, okay? Well, as I said, it was five, six years ago, somewhere in that time frame, that uh this technology came out. And but uh since, and as I said a minute ago, technology is evolving so quickly that um there were no prescriptive or any kind of provisions in chapter six, 26 of 72 for this. And unfortunately, um, and this started right at the development for the 2025 edition of 72, uh, there were fair uh several fairly notable uh communication failures with ASPs. All right, and unfortunately, uh no one knew that there was a COM failure. The supervising station didn't know, and the protected premises fire alarm control unit didn't know. Um, and there were thousands and thousands of systems that were just out there uh not communicating to anyone. So uh as I said, for the development of the 2025 edition of 72, the committee said we gotta do something. You know, it's gotta have, you know, uh all the core tenets that we have for fire alarm systems, secondary power, um, you know, supervision, so on and so forth. And uh lo and behold, a new section was added to uh the 2025 edition of 72 dealing with ASPs. Um and it had in there that, okay, you gotta uh have secondary power, you gotta have um supervision, but another um provision in there, and it was in uh section 26211.3, that required that this ASP be housed in a facility, okay, that has some resiliency to it. Um, you know, security. So anybody uh would be prohibited from walking in off the street and getting to it. Um, you know, fire protection, you know, uh making sure that it's in a building that has fire alarms, sprinkler systems, security systems, and all this. And the committee said, well, you know, the best um thing that we have available uh right now was um UL827, which is the Central Station Services uh product standard. Okay, and there were resiliency requirements in there for that, all right. Uh and the thought was that, okay, um, you know, the UL 827 uh technical committee would form a uh working group to add requirements to that product standard uh specifically for ASPs. Well, lo and behold, that just didn't happen in a timely manner. All right. So, you know, the first state to adopt the 2027 uh or 2025 edition of uh NFPA 72 is California, all right? Well, you know, we started looking at that provision in 26211.3 of that, you know, it has to be in how uh housed in a facility um that is UL827 listed, and 827 had no requirements for that. So that really means that that provision uh is unenforceable. Um so once the industry became aware of that, we contacted Cal Fire, uh, the office of uh California State Fire Marshal let them know. Uh obviously there was a lot of conversation uh going back and forth, and they actually uh issued an information bulletin um uh for the AHJs in California saying that um the um requirements for uh to comply with UL 827, excellent, uh Charles, is unenforceable, all right? Um and I am using this information bulletin as I travel and as I speak to people uh that may be considering adopting the 2025 edition of 72 that you can't uh enforce that provision, all right. Now, the good news is, and if I'm rambling on too much here, uh please let me know. But we're already halfway through the development for the 2028 edition of NFPA 72. And um, you know, the Chapter 26 Technical Committee is very close to finalizing language, okay, um, relating to ASPs. And once that is uh finalized, hopefully in the fall of this year, then we will issue a TIA uh um uh tentative interim amendment for the 2025 edition with this new language. Now that's what NFPA uh 72 is working on. UL, they have actually formed a new technical committee for the development of a new product standard specifically for ASPs, and that is uh UL 85558555. Um and uh this uh group is and I'm a member of it, uh they're they're working very diligently, and the hope is, and I probably shouldn't say this, but the hope is to have the product standard uh outfinalized uh and published by the end of this year. So, you know, there is a lot going on um in this area, and I hope that I succinctly and clearly um communicated all this.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Well, Rich, I think it really goes to Brian's point that uh we don't need no college in this industry. A couple three three old dogs here, okay?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

And we all go back. We've all eat, you know, I think I said this on the last podcast. I think we all go back uh probably close to 30 years uh, you know, uh between the three of us uh knowing each other. And I've got 40 years in the in the trade.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

So well, and one thing I think is important, this whole discussion is focused on uh a very specific thing. The technicians who are out in the field working with cellular, working with radios, uh they wire it up, turn it on, and it either works or it doesn't. They have no idea about this ASP stuff at all. The uh manufacturers uh have more of a direct uh interest in these requirements. So um it's important for all of us to know about this stuff, but it's not critical for the guy standing at a fire control panel wiring it up.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

That that is true. Uh until the AHA comes out and says, okay, um, you know, is your ASP that you're using here listed as complying with UL827? And that's where the you know problem um you know really starts. And the good news is, you know, I'm I'm talking about this in webinars, podcasts, articles, um, but I'm also, you know, and obviously the industry, you know, I'm trying to inform the industry. But uh, for example, at the National Association of State Fire Marshals uh annual conference in August, I'm doing a session specifically on this issue to let the state fire marshals know, okay, we have an issue here, the industry is working on it, but this uh particular provision in the 2025 edition is not enforceable. And then hopefully they will then take that back to um, you know, all their AHJs in their respective uh states. So um, you know, that's kind of a big mission for me in the second half of this year is to get out and really educate the AHJs on on this this year.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I see this this issue similar to what happened to the sprinkler industry um a decade, decade and a half ago with uh with antifreeze systems, and where there was a loss of life uh due to an antifreeze system where the antifreeze had separated from the uh water. And when the sprinkler had popped, it dropped the uh propylene glycol or glycerin, I don't know which one it was, uh, which surprisingly is flammable, uh, onto the uh stove and caused an explosion and killed one person and uh gave. Another person like burns over 90% of their body. And there were other issues as well with uh, but it it completely turned the sprinkler industry upside down until somebody came out with a listed antifreeze. But for a number of years, the code was in turmoil. The industry was in turmoil about that. And um the way I look at it, guys, is that Charles, you like to use the term death destruction in mayhem as the reason that codes change. And what codes change because we learn things. And it was discovered that there was a loophole, so to speak, in the way ASPs operated and the code remedied it. And unfortunately, you know, the wheels turn slowly, things don't happen overnight. And I'm sure that with other technologies, um, other parts of the code. That's why code changes happen, but that's why it's so important for us to stay engaged, that we always are learning about codes. Learning about code changes new things. So, Rich, like you said, the AHJ that says, well, is is your ASP uh UL827? How many technicians are going to look at that AHJ and say, what's an ASP? You know, and uh if I wasn't as a code geek that I am, I wouldn't know what an ASP is.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's uh, I mean, you really hit the nail on the head, you know. Um, a lot of people, you know, complain that, all right, every three years, you know, the respective codes and standards there are updated. All right. Well, they're updated for a reason because there's a known problem in the field that needs to be fixed. Technology does change and lessons learned from uh past uh fire disasters um or incidents. And as I say, it's just an uh uh basically over a 100-year um work in progress that that we keep uh doing this. And um, it's important. Of course, a lot of people, uh, there are some stakeholders out there that want to freeze or extend the state adoption of model codes uh from every three years uh, you know, to six or nine years. Um, you know, I don't agree with that. And that's a big issue that's going on in the uh industry, which may be a good topic for another podcast uh in the future. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, well, as you say, uh, you know, things change and we learn things, and and I always uh that what I come back to is what's the value of a human life? That if we are saving lives by updating the code, you know, what what is somebody's life worth? Because a code change could theoretically change somebody's life, save somebody's life, even your own life or someone you love. And um, you know, it's why do we have seat belts and cars? You know, and there I I don't see the value in delaying that. Yes, it is a procedural thing, it costs money. Um the codes always get more intense as they go on. You generally don't see code requirements lessened. Usually they are increased, but that's for a really good reason.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's just uh critically important that, you know, uh we keep up with things because there's uh things that we always find that uh, you know, and you know, a lot of times, you know, it's a three-year cycle to um develop the next edition of NFPA 72 or a model code. So it's it's almost like a continuous um, you know, process, but you know, we'll be in the middle of the development of the next standard or code, and something will come up, and it's too late to um address it, and we got to go on to the next edition or issue a TIA.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

So well, guys, I do appreciate the code discussion today and uh very I appreciate the deep dive, Rich, into the ASP situation and the changes that we can look for in NFPA 72, and more importantly, uh helping to educate our listeners about what ASPs are, what they do, and if they're asked that question by the AHJ, at least they know how to respond, know what an ASP is, and know how to be able to address that question.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yep, absolutely. So um, no, appreciate you having me on again. Um, and you know, this is another example that, you know, the technicians, um, you know, the the system programmers, uh, you know, they they need to stay uh on top of codes and standards. And the other thing, too, is if anyone is interested in getting on an NFPA technical committee, you know, please get with Brian, Charles, or myself, and we'll be more than happy to um, you know, assist you in that process. You know, for me, it's a no-brainer, you know, I do this all the time. But uh, you know, somebody that's never done it before, uh, it can be a little daunting. So um I as I always like to say, we're here as a resource for for the industry.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, gentlemen, for your time today. That concludes this edition of the NTC Temporal 3 Podcast. Please remember to subscribe, and we will see you all next time.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Thanks, Rich. Thanks, Brian.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

You all have a happy, enjoyable, and safe day. Take care. Bye.