NTC's Temporal 3
National Training Center's (NTC) Bryan McLane, Charles Aulner, and Chris Godwin discuss all things fire alarm, low voltage, NICET, and more. With occasional special guests.
NTC's Temporal 3
Episode 30 | NICET Level 3 project management, fire alarm codes, zoning, and more
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This episode covers fire alarm inspection and testing, code requirements, and project management tips for NISET Fire Alarm Level 3 certification. Experts Bryan McLane, Chris Godwin, and Charles Aulner share insights on testing procedures, zoning, and exam strategies.
Hello again and welcome to the Temporal 3 Podcast. I'm joined by my co-host, Mr. Chris Godwin. Hey everybody. And Mr. Charles Ulner. Howdy, I'm Charles. Awesome. Thanks for joining me, guys. So today I'd like to start out talking about some things that we have learned from our fire alarm inspection and testing workshop. And if you're new to NTC or uh not aware, we do offer a fire alarm inspection and testing workshop. We do offer it as an in-person class, but more popularly and on a very regular basis, we offer it as a virtual class where you get to watch us do the work. And it's a very popular class, and our students end up learning a lot because a lot of our students have some very common misconceptions about what inspection and testing requirements are for fire alarm systems. So, Chris, you do these, you're the primary host for a lot of these. What's one of the common things, one of the most common things that students don't realize that they learn in their class?
SPEAKER_01Can I use magnets to test my smoke detectors? One of the biggest and most common things is, well, we do it this way. We're allowed to do it. No, you're not. Not for a functional test, at least. It's not a functional test. It does test that circuit works. It does show that if you are able to trip the relay inside, activation happens. And um for that aspect, sure. It's not a functional test, however. And every class, every class, we get that question of, well, what about magnets? You can't. It's actually in code that for the functional test, for a smoke entry test, magnets are not permitted. Yep.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And it even says in the uh in the uh table itself in 14432. Now, unfortunately, it's at the end of the table, and uh one of the notes, one of the fine uh one of the informational notes about it, but it specifically says that magnets are not a functional test because the function of a smoke detector is to detect smoke, and introducing a magnet does not introduce smoke to the detector. Charles, from your uh real world experience, what have you seen?
SPEAKER_00I've seen a lot of folks get confused about what a sensitivity test is, what a functional test is, what a magnet test is. People don't understand all that, and they certainly don't understand the difference between an inspection and a test. So they don't know where to look in the code, first of all, chapter 14, and then in chapter 14, they don't know what table to look at, inspection or test. And right in the test table, it identifies how to do the test, what the requirements are for the test. And people are just unaware of that. They they when we talk about sensitivity, functional inspection or testing, they get all that jumbled up in their head.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely. And Charles, you bring up a great point, and something that I love pointing out to people, both our nice at students and our um fire alarm inspection and testing students, that that table, in addition to having the intervals, has the methods, even has the inspection methods, what do you have to look for on an inspection, which is really cool because now you have something to go to that is in writing that says, okay, for a functional test, you do this. For an inspection, you do that. And it tells you exactly what to do, what to look for. And um it that's huge. And I think you're right. A lot of people just totally ignore that or don't read far enough to the right to see that information in the table. Chris, um, one that I've seen uh and one that surprises people in the classes that I've done is differential pressure testing of duct smoke detectors. And it's been in the code for a couple of years, and when we talk about a manometer or a magnahelic gauge, and are like, what the heck is that? I've never seen that, and explain them. And um, you know, it's a requirement of the code. It's been in there a couple of cycles.
SPEAKER_01It definitely has, it's been in for quite a while. Um, from a field perspective, you not a lot of technicians are doing this, and a lot of it comes down to uh it's not really a lot of AHJs enforcing it, is what I've seen. Now, you've gotta you gotta do this differential air pressure testing with your duct detectors. We do it for your externally mounted duct detectors, because you need to make sure that the amount of airflow coming in from the supply tube to your exhaust tube is not so much that it's flushing straight through. Uh do I do kind of look at this as a bit of an issue, again, more on the AHJ side of it, but also that's not something that from a fire alarm technician's perspective, we can actually control. What you are measuring, again, is how much air is going from one side to the next within the enclosure that is the where the smoke head is kept. You use a tool called a manometer or Brian, what's the other one called?
SPEAKER_02Mag magnahelic gauge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's old school analog, man. Yeah. I know you're a digital kind of guy. You're a millennial Chris. You're you're a digital kind of guy, but a lot of the us old guys like the old analog stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you utilize that to make sure that the the um pressure coming through or that the air movement is not in excess.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So basically what Chris is saying is uh for our listeners out there, we need to make sure our duct detectors suck. Suck air in from the sampling tube and put it out the exhaust tube. Um, Charles, you missed that one. You should have I was expecting you to say that. Chris, is there something else that our students frequently do not realize about duct detectors?
SPEAKER_01You gotta do sensitivity testing. You gotta, it's a it's a smoke detector. Now, that being said, with how sensitivity testing is done, if it's monitored through the panel, we don't have to do it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And that's commonly overlooked. They say because I don't think people realize a duct smoke detector, or we commonly call them duct detectors, it is technically a duct smoke detector, is still a smoke detector. So we still have to do all the testing we do on the spot type smokes, including the functional test, including the sensitivity test. Uh Charles, uh, for notification, fire alarm acceptance, we do something with the notification. Uh, what do we do when with our notification appliances when we acceptance test it?
SPEAKER_00Well, before I get to that, smoke detectors require sensitivity testing. Brian, do you require sensitivity testing as well? Well, I am very I am a very sensitive guy.
SPEAKER_02Really? I think I think anybody that knows me will argue about that.
SPEAKER_00Well, on the notification side, we need to check for sound level and make sure we have the adequate sound pressure level from our audible notification devices. Uh, and there's a strobe intensity requirement as well that we need to make sure that we are meeting. Normally, the both of these are uh analyzed and calculated and developed and designed. So out in the field, there's not a problem unless there's some malfunction or something, typically, or a change in the environment. Yep.
SPEAKER_02So that that's initial acceptance that we require, as Charles said we get out the. I used to say Radio Shack. Nobody knows what Radio Shack is anymore. So I'll say Amazon special DB meter and go five feet above the floor and measure the ambient sound level and make sure that we're meeting that and the strobes. You don't need a light meter. All you need to do is go to the strobe and check the candela on the strobe. That's it. But that's only on acceptance. And unless you do a modification of the system, or as Charles said, a significant modification of the environment, it is not required to be done periodically. And that's a common misconception that I've encountered. We have to do an annual sound level test and an annual verify the strobe intensity. Nope, only on initial acceptance. That's it, or reacceptance. The one uh difference here, though, that I like to throw at people, and this is something that we, many people are less aware of because it's something relatively new in the code, is mass notification, which actually does require both of those to be done as part of the annual testing, and that surprises a lot of people. And that would even apply if you have a combination, mass notification and fire alarm. Guess what? More stringent requirement applies for the mass notification part. You got to go around strobes and look at the set setting, and you got to go around with the DB meter and check the sound level.
SPEAKER_00And Brian, does that apply to voice evacuac systems as well? Is a voice evacuation considered a mass notification system?
SPEAKER_02No, it does not. Voice EVAC is fire alarm. Charles, great point. Yeah, voice evacu is ECS, emergency communication, but ECS does subcategorize chapter 24, subcategorizes emergency voice alarm communication or voice evacuac versus mass notification. So it's kind of interesting. That's only an MNS requirement, but not a fire alarm. And uh who knows, maybe some point in the future it will be a fire alarm, but right now, at least up to 2025, it's only a mass notification requirement.
SPEAKER_00And making that distinction clear is important. Absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01It makes a lot of sense that we've got to do it for mass notification. If the fire alarm activates, even if it's a voice eback system, what's the message every single time? Get out. Get out. Mass notification, it makes sense that you want to have that ensuring that you have the right sound levels because the message might change. So, I mean, with that in mind, yeah, it it makes a it makes a little bit more sense that we do that annually.
SPEAKER_02I hadn't thought about it from that perspective, but you're right, yeah, because with a mass notification, there could be a shelter in place, there could be an evacuation, it could be a muster call, and knowing that that message is at an adequate level uh to be heard and understood is definitely uh something that I could see the point in that, Chris. I hadn't really considered that.
SPEAKER_00The day has come. The day has come. Chris, after reading the code, actually thinks it makes sense. What is wrong with you?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I'm playing my lottery numbers today because obviously the end is nigh here, guys. Somebody thinks one of us thinks the code makes sense. That aspect of it. That aspect, one aspect. Chris has to cav about it. We don't want we don't want him to have them committed or anything. Awesome. Well, the next thing I'd like to talk about is NFPA 72 chapter 10. 10 is a very important chapter. Chapter 10 is fundamentals. And something that's covered at the end of chapter 10 is enunciation zoning. And one of the things it talks about is the requirement or when a remote enunciator is required. Now, a lot of I know a lot of fire alarm people think, well, a remote enunciator is always required. Well, that's not necessarily the case. Chris, what would trigger a remote enunciator to be required? Why does the code, or what does the code have to say about that?
SPEAKER_01Um a lot of the times what I've what I've actually seen from the field is um the requirement for the when is an AHJ thing a lot of times. The AHJ wants them. And that's because of what they're used for. Yeah, from a fire alarm technician's perspective, I can use that to do inspection and testing and not have to go back to the panel. I can reset from there, it's easy. But what the whole purpose of the remote enunciator is, is to make the information about what's going on in the system much more readily accessible to your first responders. Where's the panel nine times out of ten? It's not at the front door, it's in the back of the building behind a locked door. Having a remote enunciator at a lot of times, the entrance and exits points gives the fire department when they come in the ability to say, okay, here's the enunciator, here's what's going on, and see what floors, which build or which uh devices and everything else within the building are activated so they can more appropriately go deal with that.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely. And I think that how many of our customers want a giant red honking fire panel by their front door that just doesn't appeal to the aesthetics of the building, can't make it blend in. You know, so they they put it and it's better for the panel, too, to have it in a locked electrical closet or sprinkler room or something so it doesn't get messed with. But you're right, unless the fire department knows where that room is and has access to that room, uh that's a significant delay in their ability to respond. And remember, guys, that while the primary purpose of fire alarm systems is to notify building occupants for that evacuation, there's also secondary purpose as far as the indication on the fire panel to let the fire department know exactly where the fire is. So they know where to go, so they know how to handle the situation. So, what are some of the zoning requirements, Charles, from NFPA 72?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's important that we identify what a zone is. Typically, when we talk about zoning, it's thought of as a conventional fire alarm panel as opposed to a point of detection that you might refer to for an SLC. The principles are the same though. Uh we can't have a zone of a fire alarm be a whole multi-story building. So each floor of the building has to be individually zoned. There's a size limit too. Annex A specifies a size limit for how big a zone can be in terms of square footage. Uh we can't exceed that, otherwise, one million square foot could potentially be a zone, and that doesn't tell responding authorities anything about where the fire activation might be. So that limitation is important. Chris, what is that floor square footage limitation?
SPEAKER_01Um the square footage limitation, and again, annex A materials, not always enforceable. 22,500 square feet. 22,500 square feet is what we look at from a square footage perspective on your zone should not exceed that. That's a pretty big big area still, but that is that is a very big area.
SPEAKER_00And Brian, how many zones could your house have?
SPEAKER_02A quarter. Not even, not even, maybe a tenth, probably not even that much, maybe a twentieth. Yeah, you got the requirement too. And then Chris mentioned Anne X A, which is up to the AHA as far as enforceable. And I like to uh the analogy I like to use with NXA is that it's it's guidelines, it's best practice. It's uh my wife telling me you really should take out the trash. What's she doing? She's telling me you shall take out the trash, but she's trying to say it in a nice way. Um, doesn't care if the Super Bowl's on or anything like that, that's not important. Um, but fire and smoke barriers are another delineation and no more than 300 foot in one direction. All again in annex A of chapter 10, but something that we should be applying as designers uh in every system because again, it's best practice. And as Chris said, or Charles, I'm sorry, if you said it's the zone is a million square feet, you could argue, well, the code doesn't say it can't be. Okay, fine. How's the fire department going to know? And especially if it's uh not an addressable system, know exactly where the fire is. That's a lot of uh that's a lot of area to cover. It's interesting too that there's a similar requirement. Charles, you mentioned addressable, that there's similar requirements for SLCs in chapter 23. Chris, you want to talk about SLC requirements from chapter 23?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, coming out of chapter 23, 2361 states that a fault shall not cause loss of more than one zone. Okay, what does that mean? It means we've got to have separations. Your SLC loops, you're able to T tap off of them. Depending on the size of your panel, you can have multiple devices tied to a single SLC loop. Well, that could take up, you know, multiple rooms in a building. It could take up, if we're not going upwards, you could have several parts of the building fall into one zone. What happens when you got a groundfall to that zone? Everything's lost, the whole system's lost. So, no, you go into annex A material and it breaks down a little bit more of that separation for the SLC side of it. A lot of the same requirements that we just talked about for regular zoning from chapter 10's perspective. Floor area, 22,500 square feet, smoke fire barriers, your circuit should not extend more than 300 feet circuit distance any one direction. But now it's being applied specifically for your SLCs.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00It basically parallels. Oh, I'm sorry, Charles. Go ahead. One thing I want to point out we throw out this abbreviation, SLC, signaling line circuit. That's an addressable circuit. A notification circuit, which is totally different, is typically not an SLC. So an SLC is a signaling line circuit, an addressable circuit. A notification circuit is what we connect to our horns and stroke. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And if anybody uh who is a student of the code, I strongly recommend Chris mentioned 2361 as the SLC requirement, loss of uh more than one zone, a fault shall not cause a loss of more than one zone. There was extensive annex A material in A2361, including illustrations, which I'm a big fan of illustrations, about how to do that zoning. So as a student of the code, uh here's your homework for our listeners. Take a look at your 72, look at A2361, read that annex material, better understand how to zone your SLCs. So, gentlemen, our question from the field today is what do I need to know about project management for NYSET Fire Alarm Level 3? Chris, what's your uh personal feeling about the level three exam? Level three is hard.
SPEAKER_01Level three is very hard. Um we've we've been told from NYSET it is the one of the hardest exams that they offer, not just in firewall and incredibly difficult to pass. And a lot of what you find being the frustration and the difficulty is the project management section. Because it's stuff that NYSET expects that you know or have been experienced with, but there's no book. There's no book to take in. There's books to study, but there's nothing to take in. And when you get into the project management at level three, it's not contextual, there's not background information for the situation they're giving you. It's just here's a situation. So your answers are a lot harder to try to figure out because if you go into it with how would I do this out in the real world, you're not gonna answer correctly. It's a what you should do. What would a book tell you to do? That is how you want to go about a lot of the project management when you get into that level three exam is what should you do based off of a book.
SPEAKER_02Charles, how would you compare and contrast NYSET uh project management versus real-world project management?
SPEAKER_00Uh project management is squishy. It's done in all sorts of different ways, and there are training courses that are weeks long on the subject, depending on what you want to get involved with. So there's not a so much a right and wrong as a better or less good, is how I might phrase that. The biggest piece of advice I can give to students is NASCAR. Get the NASCAR book. Uh Chris mentioned when you're in the test, look for a book answer, not a real-world answer, and that's very good advice. But studying the book beforehand, the NASCAL book will give you that information in your head. And always go with what's more stringent. Uh Chris calls it a book answer. I I tend to agree with that. If you find an employee drinking on a job site, should you shoot them in the head or give them a nice gentle counseling and maybe uh send them home until they sober up.
SPEAKER_02You know, ask if they brought some for you. And if they didn't, then you send them home.
SPEAKER_00But the book Yeah, a lot of our students struggle with that project management stuff because nice at level one is code based. Nice at level two is intensely code based. Nice at level three is project management based. What would you do in a squishy situation? And we're so accustomed to that find it in the code, find it in the code, find it in the code. We hit these other types of questions where there's no reference allowed, and our brain is stuck in where would I find drinking on the job in the code? Well, it ain't it ain't in there.
SPEAKER_02And I agree, Charles, in that NASCAL book. The good news about the Nasco book, yes, it is an investment. It's another book, and it's not allowed in level three, but it's great prep material, but it is allowed for level four. And our our approach is that look, at some point, if you're level three, you're going to get that additional five years of experience you need in fire alarm and go for level four. We always encourage maxim out your certification. And when you go for level four, you're already going to have the book. And um, you know, get it now, get the basic edition, don't get the state-specific edition, and just be prepared. So, Chris, are there any Charles mentioned some things that um, you know, using looking for textbook answers? Any other things that you could recommend from your experience with it as far as a guide, again, not having a reference, how would you approach a question?
SPEAKER_01Um sometimes it's gonna be what would a book say? Sometimes it's gonna be what's the most obvious thing? A lot of times the project management stuff is okay, that obviously, that that's obviously the answer, but we're so conditioned to how NYSSET does things to look at it and say, no, it can't be that easy. Sometimes it is. Yep. The best best case uh or best uh choice of action when it comes to having no idea, whatever, take a guess and just keep on going. Yes, it is a large portion of your exam. It'll be somewhere between 25 and 30% of your exam. 70% of the exam is gonna come out of a code book. 30% is from this project management. You're gonna want to get some of these correct, but don't overthink it. Don't be wasting time on it because there's nothing to go back and look in at level three. Remember your chain of command. Project manager is probably gonna be the best answer for who do I go to? Probably gonna be Chad. Going right with that. So be familiar with those.
SPEAKER_02I'd say the other thing is go ahead, Charles. Sorry, Brian. I was gonna say the other thing is familiarize yourself with some of the paperwork involved in project management, like insurance, like bonds, like labor law, and the Nasca book is great for that. And uh a lot of students will say, well, I don't deal with that. We have somebody in our office that deals with that, and I understand that. But in NISET world, somebody who's going for level three is basically the local project manager for a project and has some knowledge of those things. And even though you know, don't think about what you do in your job on a daily basis, think about what NISET expects. And NISAT expects somebody to understand basics of labor law and OSHA requirements and bonds and insurance and you know, kind of have a cursory level knowledge of that type of stuff.
SPEAKER_00Charles? One thing you mentioned is uh in the test, and I think this is an important concept in test taking, you're gonna run into questions that you don't have a reference for, and there's just no obvious answer. It's like when your wife says, How do I look in this dress? Well, there's no right answer there, and thinking about it for five minutes isn't gonna come up with one. Get rid of it, pick it, go on to the next thing that maybe uh you've got a better chance of getting an answer for.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you again for your participation in this program. I want to remind all our listeners to please subscribe, and we'll see you all next time. Thanks again, guys.