EP13: How Can a School Implement PBIS?

Jay, Katie, and Steven sit down with Jackie Bury, the proud principal of Centennial Middle School from South Lyon Community Schools to learn about her amazing story of implementing schoolwide PBIS from the ground up. Hear the inspirational journey of the Centennial Middle School team’s embrace of system thinking and positive culture to support healthy student behaviors. They expand PBIS implementation beyond mere reward tickets to truly transform the way in which teachers come together to support student learning. 

Hosts: Jay Haffner - Literacy Consultant, Katie Morrison - Mathematics Education Consultant, Dr. Steven Snead - Supervisor of Curriculum & Assessment.

This podcast is proudly brought to you by Oakland Schools Intermediate School District in the great state of Michigan. Oakland Schools is an educational service agency that offers support services to school districts that are best delivered regionally and provide cost, size and quality advantages to those we serve. Oakland Schools is an autonomous, tax-supported public school district governed by Michigan General School Laws and is one of 56 intermediate school districts (ISDs) established in Michigan in 1962.

If you are an educator in Oakland County, Michigan, check out www.oakland.k12.mi.us to explore the services and professional learning opportunities available to support you. 

Have feedback for the hosts? We'd love to hear from you! Email steven.snead@oakland.k12.mi.us to connect with us. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:15

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you happen to be. This is the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with our esteemed hosts.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Let me start off with yes, he is my main man's 100 grand. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Excited to be here on a very cold Friday. And I'm also very well caffeinated. Well, very, very like. We actually came for a coffee and I ordered a large, and the barista refused to give me the large and gave me the small. I've never been cut off. Because they read your energy. You're at a medium. Yeah, they're like, no, no, no. Not even a medium. They were like the small. It's like a shot of coffee, is what they it's so small. And yeah, she was like, no. So she knows you. I'm feeling it. You're feeling it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Yeah. Well, who else is feeling it? I'm bringing our second guest, but second, but certainly first, because she is the best dang old math maticks education improvement consultant in all the land in the Tri County area.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I appreciate that. Katie Morrison, math consultant, Oakland Schools, happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

And I am but one of your many hosts, 33% of the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Stephen, Dr. Steven Sneed. I am very excited about this topic and this case, because I have done some work with our esteemed guests around this topic, which is how does a school implement school-wide PBIS? How does that happen? Like school-wide PBIS. And first of all, we got to break down some of these letters. We always do have the alphabet soup of stuff in schools, uh, but PBIS positive behavior interventions and supports. Um, but I I want to pick your brain for a little bit before we bring our guest out. Cause I, of course, I was on like Instagram reels thumbming through things, and I ran across a reel from an assistant principal who said, like, we're not doing PBIS anymore. Like, we're just we're just throwing it out. Teachers don't want to do it. All the tickets are just throwing it out. And I was like, uh, my heart kind of broke a a little bit in that moment. But I did kind of feel her in a sense that, okay, if it's really like one more thing to do, yes. Oh, I gotta fill out another one, you know, and there's no like real benefit or there's there's no joy in the work. Yeah, maybe it does kind of feel like, but I feel like, ooh, how do we avoid PBIS from being like one more doggone form that teachers have got to fill out for a thing? Um, and so I'm really curious about what our guest, our guest, who is a leader in this space, um, has done in that environment. But Jay, what say you? What's what's your general take on how schools can operate PBIS?

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Yeah, I think it's like a dispelling and overcoming some of the maybe misconceptions that float around PBIS and really making sure that we're clear as to what outcomes we're we want to achieve for our students when we're building uh a healthy climate and culture inside of our school. And so, you know, we we at Oakland Schools, we understand like alphabet soup burnout tie to initiatives all the time. Like MTSS burnout, DL burnout, PBIS burnout. If you got an alphabet soup and you pick that spoon up, whatever those alphabets are, there are there's burnout around it. And I but I think some of the reasons that happens is because we lose sight. If we can put the you know, sort of the alphabet uh soup aside, we lose sight of what it is we're really trying to achieve within the these frameworks. Um and if we can hone the message in on really creating healthy climates, safe spaces for kids, um, and and you know, really elevating the culture that we want to see in school, then it's PBIS are just four letters. It's the outcomes that matter most and and how we go about creating that. So yeah, I want to you know unpack that with with our guest and really dispel some of the uh the misconceptions and burnout that may come with any of these frameworks uh and keep it focused on healthy kids, healthy schools.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, yeah. I was like really connecting with what you said, Stephen, because I think so often like PBIS does feel like that other thing or that one more thing. And so I'm really interested in learning like what does it look like to be cohesive within the system? Um and I think one of the things that makes it cohesive within the system is realizing that it's PBIS is not one person's job, right? Like PBIS isn't the dean of students to figure out or the MTSS coordinator, right? Like PBIS, if it's going to be sustainable and possible to like really be something that exists beyond like the matrix grid or the like you know, all of those things. And I think about oh gosh, yes, like ineffective PBIS systems, right? What do they have? They have like the endless amount of tickets that kids are making copy of in some way and like forgering in some way, or the grids, right? The big grids that are on the posters, and you like ask the kids and they're like, Wait, pride, what? Like, what are all those? Like, yeah. Um, and I I think it like it's because it's not cohesive and coherent in a way that feels like everybody's job and role and responsibility and making it happen. So I'm excited for our guest and maybe like shed some light on how she's like made it reality um and buy in and really be something that everyone feels like is possible so that it's getting to those outcomes that you're saying, Jay, like reminding us of like why we're doing it, but also feels like doable for the adults, like otherwise we can't like get out of the burnout feeling that it feels like another thing.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Well, we've raised a lot of questions, but I think our guest has a lot of answers and perspectives to share with us today. And I think this might be be a first. We've had many people sit in our guest chair. We've had teachers, coordinators, assistant superintendents, and executive directors who have had been building principals in their life, but I think this is the first time we have a sitting building principal, a phenomenal leader from the South Lyon School District. Shout out to South Lion, which is an Oakland County district, by the way. Okay, I mean geographically.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

South Lion is Oakland County. They're us.

SPEAKER_05 6:37

We're claiming all of South Lion, right? Even though they're what in like Wayne and Livingston. Yeah, like three three different counties. Uh but she is the proud principal of CMS Centennial Middle School in the beautiful district of South Lion, the one, the only Ms. Jackie Burry. Jackie? Hey.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Hi, everyone. Welcome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

We are so happy to have you here and some of the phenomenal things that you've done in your building. And just to give you some size, uh Centennial uh Middle School has what, 200 kids?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

925.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

925 beautiful little souls in that building. But how many staff?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Over 112.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Over 112.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Actually, I just counted yesterday.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

Just counted yesterday, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

So you're well aware of how many adults are moving and working within your system.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

So that that's a big system, right? Like across, you know, we we're very proud in the great state of Michigan. There are some entire school districts that are 900 students with a hundred or some staff. You have that just in one building, and that's a that's a big bear. Um, and so you experience all of the things uh of a school and middle school. Matter of fact, I think the last time I was there in your building, you were dealing with a thing in a lunchroom at that time. But typical happens every space uh where we have to reinforce expectations. Um but tell me, like, as a leader of a of a large school and a great community, how did you all get started on your PBIS journey? Like, why did you start there?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Mm-hmm. So it was right after the pandemic. Yeah. 2021, we were looking at our behaviors, and at that point, we were seeing a wide variety of behaviors. Um, more than we could handle at that moment in time with the staffing that we currently have and had, and we weren't looking to increase any staffing at the time either. And so uh we were collecting data on behaviors.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

You had me at collecting data. I was go on, darling, go on. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yes, and so we wanted to find a system that would help us support the students and support the staff hand in hand. Um, and this is what it does for us. It really works out in both favors. It just makes a uh positive community, a positive culture in the building. And so that is one of the reasons why we got started with learning more about how to create a PBIS system within Centennial Middle School.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:11

Okay, so post-pandemic, and and we we're all there with you, right? Because we were all in and supporting schools at that time. You know, the children needed some support and reinv reinforcing, like this is how we enjoy the school space. Yeah. Uh so you see this uptick in and behaviors to say, hey, we want to respond with creating this PBI PBIS structures. What were some of the first things that you attempted to do with your staff?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Okay. So we first had something called a blue ticket or blue slip, and that's where we started, and that was put in place before the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

And it was pretty much ineffective after the pandemic because everyone went home and there was no one giving out blue slips at home to win prizes. Although we tried to do it electronically and that was kind of fun to do, it just did not work out very well.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Um, and so after we realized that that system wasn't working, unfortunately, we came up with a survey to the staff. What characteristics would you like to see in your students to try to figure out what we wanted to potentially put on a matrix one day to lay out those expectations. And so we surveyed the staff and they ended up coming up with a list of characteristics. And from that, my assistant principal and I sat down and we looked at those and decided we were going to go with the three Ps positive, prepared, and polite. So we ended up giving out, we kept the blue slips, um, and it was just one drawing per week on our weekly um news channel, which is Charger TV. And so they pulled five names or three names, I'm sorry, three names a week, and they would get a prize. But no one used it. No one was really giving out slips. We probably had a hundred slips for the whole year. Oh wow. Oh wow. Yeah, it was really uh low participation rates. Um, and so when we decided that we wanted to change that practice, we started back again from the beginning. So, whoever is doing this work out there, I'm encouraging you, you might have to go back to move forward.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Talk to him, Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

You might have to go back a couple different times. And so we went back to the beginning, we resurveyed the staff. Um, and that took quite a bit of time because they weren't really quite understanding what PBIS was at the moment. So we had to do some teaching of what the system actually would look like, how it would benefit them, how it would change the culture, how the students would enjoy um the rewards or the culture that it would be building. Um, and so that took a little bit of time as well. So that took probably another year to survey them and to really dig deep into the work.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Um, and then we came up with our charge cards. So um we love our matrix right now, and that we have a team of people that work together. Are you gonna stop me?

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Yeah, I'm gonna stop you. So so you mentioned the word matrix a couple times. Just explain for our folks who are new to their work, uh, what are you talking about when you say matrix? What's that?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

So a matrix would be when you have a so I'm gonna do the three piece just to not jump ahead. It would be when you're laying out your expectations that you're looking to explicitly teach to your students. You're laying out the characteristics at the top, and then you're laying out which location you would like to teach your students how to behave in those certain areas. So for example, hallway, classroom, bus, um, and what expectations uh and how to behave go inside the matrix. So it's a table. Okay. Um and it ex it spells out and explains how to act in those locations per each characteristic.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

Okay. So you're kind of making like the expectations pretty clear. I'm gonna probably presume in like student-friendly language and not like it's it's not a dissertation. Yes, I've written one of those. I don't want to write one ever again. So you don't have like pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of of a thing in the hallway, but something simple that kids can understand, right? Um okay, so I I I apologize for interrupting. I just wanted to make sure people were listening were were were dialed into like, what's this matrix thing? Are we thinking about like Neo and like Yeah, not red pill, blue pill. Like, no. Whoa. No. Great film, but there's my matrix drop. Katie, you do know the matrix film, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I mean, I know the film, but I've never seen it. So come on. I wasn't going there. You've seen the matrix film. Yes, I have. Yes. All right, all right. So like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Yeah, Jackie's with us. She she understands the distinction we're trying to draw between PBIS and Keanu Reeves.

SPEAKER_05 14:04

Keanu Reeves. Shout out to the Keanu Reeves. Matter of fact, Keanu Reeves, if you're listening, maybe you should sponsor some of the great efforts here at Centennial Middle School in South Line in the great state of Michigan. So anyway, you were talking about the development of your charge cards.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

So we ended up um scrapping the three Ps. We took down all the um matrixy matrices. Matrices that we hung up on the walls and all of our posters that went with it. Um, and we developed our PBIS team. And on the team sits a variety of uh staff members. So we have teachers, we have a psychologist, um, we have administrators, sometimes our counseling staff and social work staff will pop in to look at what we're doing as well. And um, what we ended up coming up with was a charge card because we are the Centennial Middle School chargers, and we want our students to charge and lead the charge. And so each of the charge represents a characteristic that we want them uh to have. So, for example, the C is cooperation, H is hardworking, C H A, A, adaptable, R responsible, G, grateful, and e empathetic. And yes, and our staff came up with that, and based on our values as a staff, that's what we wanted to see in our students.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah, yeah. So I think like going back to some of what we said at the beginning around like how PBAS might feel like something else or something that's on top of all of the things that we're already doing, for you and your staff, what did you guys either stop doing or streamline that made it feel approachable and doable for all of your teachers in your building?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Well, we're definitely about like taking something off the plate when something is put back onto your plate. So um, in terms of taking things off of their plate, I think what we wanted to share with them is this is going to make your jobs way easier. We're hoping to take the discipline off your plate. We're hoping to take the parent phone calls and the emails home off your plate because our discipline was at that moment so high that and the frustration was so high. That was one thing that really was um palatable for our staff to understand and want.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah. So how did you go from like, because that's a compelling argument, right? For a teacher, like, yeah, that's what I want to stop doing. How did you guys go? Like, where was the buy-in to say, yes, I want that, but I'm gonna start doing this that I wasn't doing before with the three Ps? Like, what was that big like impetus that really started that like escalation of like this is gonna make a difference?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Okay, so we had the teachers that were on the team who began the work for the charge card, and we also had three teachers pilot it. And when they piloted the program, they wanted to see how things worked in their classroom. And um, they really did a nice job of with the pilot. Okay. They um were able to bring back the information to the staff and share with the staff how it worked and the way that it worked. And so instead of saying, like, you know, student A, thank you for doing what you're doing, everyone just already knew take out your charge card. I'm gonna be stamping throughout the lesson. If I give you a thank you, or if I see you being respectful or I'm sorry, responsible or grateful, you're definitely getting a stamp.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

And we had one teacher that had students fill out stamp, like had complete charge cards almost every week. And I can tell you a little bit more about the charge card.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

If you want me to. It's um 10 spaces. Um, so we had a South Line company um that who makes posters. They helped us with our posters uh with the charge and all the uh attributes that we want to see in our students on the posters, but it's also listed on the charge card. And when they um see it in the classroom, when the teachers see it, they give a stamp and the stamp has a little charger on it and it says, you know, you're charging or chargers, and they stamp it and there's 10 stamps and then they turn it in. Okay. And then we do a uh prize, uh, we do a random prize um drawing. Drawing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I don't know if I've ever, I'm sorry, I just like I feel like this is such an innovative idea. I don't know if I've ever heard of somebody doing a pilot for their PBIS like process.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I mean, it's so often we hear about like the pilots for these really big things like curriculum buy-ins or new resource adoptions or programs are bringing in connected to academics. And what a novel idea to, especially with a staff that's so big. Like we got to find a small group and see if this works to scale inside of our system before we expand it out.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

So yeah, when I'm curious about the pilot, when did it start? Like when did you first start the pilot? How long ago?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

So uh it was not last school year, but the school year before. Right. So we started it mid-year actually, and the goal was to collect data on how the students felt about the program and how it changed the culture and community in the classroom. And so it started and we had like a six-week stint with it, and then we checked back in with the teacher to see how things were going.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah. So I wanna, I wanna, I guess, lift something you had said earlier about this multi-year initiative that you're gonna go, you're gonna take two steps back, one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward. It's it's a real journey and a process. And you know, I think about like, you know, it's like stepping on rakes, right? Like you're gonna step every initiative, you got your just rakes all around, and you're gonna step on these rakes, and but you gotta sort of keep plowing through in order to achieve the outcomes that you're looking for. And so I wanna like if we could pare this down, PBIS, into like one or two very specific things that we're looking for, what would you say? Because there's a lot out there that we could pull, but what is like at its root? What is PBS trying to do in a building? One or two of those core elements.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah. Number one, I'd say community and culture. It really creates a positive culture in the building. And two, uh, it creates a a feeling for students to feel motivated and want, sometimes want to come to school. So it can work in a lot of different ways, but I would say that one, it's community, two, motivation.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Community and motivation. So what are like how do you like rally? And you have a big you have a big staff and you got a lot of lot of kids too. I think that's interesting. I how many you said 900?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

925.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

920. 925. And it is like for those of you that are listening, it is Friday afternoon, and you you've been smile. I mean, you're you've done this entire thing with a smile on your face.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

He's a very happy building process. Very happy.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

925 kids, 100 plus staff members. Right. So when you're thinking about like how building this community over this multi-year process, what are also like what have been some of the sticking points where you've you got to a point you're like, oh man, like I I don't know if this is gonna, if we're gonna be able to keep moving forward. What were some of those sticking points you ran into over the last few years?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Well, I would say you can't do it alone. Right. You have to do it with your team and you have to choose team members that really have a buy in for this. Uh, we opened it up to all staff and everyone. Everyone that applied or wanted to be on the team has been great on our team. That's great. Mm-hmm. We um I div I give them a lot of credit for what they've done. It's not one, it's one on one man job. Right. Um, and and there also needs to be time set aside for this as well. Uh like you said, it's multi-year. So we had the um focus going in that it was going to be about five years to change the culture, change the community.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

And you were you were upfront with that at the beginning, right? Like this could be a five-year initiative. This isn't something that's gonna solve itself in five days, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah. Yeah. And so when the going got tough, I think we we lean on the fun things, we make it fun. We have a big wheel that we spin for the prizes. We um you they get multiple prizes when they turn in a ticket. And so the students are really on board with that. You know, anything from a Jolly Rancher to I gave out a PlayStation card today.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

So can you have 923 students? Like, is there an age limit? Can can I do it?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

No, no, PlayStation cards calling your name, huh? Like that.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Was it that or the Jolly Ranchers that are calling your name? Yeah, it might be the Jolly Ranchers calling right.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Well, one of the things, Jackie, you you keep saying this over and over again, and I'm wondering why you've made this choice as a leader to listen to your staff and to involve them in the decision-making process. So let me go dark for a minute. Uh-oh. Why not just suspend and give all the kids detention? Like life could be so simple. Like, teacher writes them up, you, you debat, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, have a hard bar here at Centennial, you know, high expectations, you know. If you cross the line, bam, you get the you get the accountability hammer, suspension, detention, and so you'll learn through punishment. Why not lead that way?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, we're all about the students. And I think a lot of our staff um has really been about the students. The staff is incredible at Centennial, and I love to listen to them and and their feedback. Um, and so we we do have high expectations, but we also want to celebrate when we see those characteristics that we picked out. And um, it's just better that way because like I said in the in one of the after for one of the questions, um our students feel motivated. They want to come to school, they feel like they have a place in the school when they're getting rewarded. Um, you know, when I'm walking into a classroom and saying, Hey, I got a PBIS winner, where is you know, so and so, and they the whole class just perks right up, like you know, we have a place in here. Um, and and they love it when they get the stamps too. Like it's almost a point of pride for them in a way. Um, so instead of suspending when we have discipline, um, discipline is meant to teach, it's meant to learn.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

That's good. Not punish that teaching.

SPEAKER_05 25:22

That's the line of the show right there. Like discipline is meant to teach.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

Talk to me, Jackie. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yes. So uh discipline needs to be meaningful. And uh sometimes suspensions and those types of things aren't what the student needs in that moment. And so just like any teachable moment, um, you got to meet your student where they're at and understand what's going on. Yes, we have these expectations, but how am I gonna get you to teach to how am I gonna get you to learn that that is not acceptable behavior in the in the school?

SPEAKER_05 25:56

But and at the same time, though, like you haven't said this word, but we've said this word a lot on the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with JK and Stephen, is shameless plug. Shameless plug to listen to all of our episodes, uh, is joy. Like you're really valuing like joy in a space, right? And you you probably realize as a leader, like you can't lead a joyful space by removing kids from it, right? So PBIS is about teaching, it's about addition to your knowledge and your repertoire, not subtracting like you did a bad thing, go away. You made a bad choice. How can we learn from this so that you can make good choices? Um, and I love that. I love that that you're you're lifting that up. Um but the other thing I was thinking about, like as I said earlier, you you you there's a lot of staff involvement. So I don't hear you and the AP went into the office, you wrote up a thing and just told say, all right, here's what we're doing. I heard surveys, I've heard teams. Why is it important to you to involve your staff in the decision making and operation? What do you what do you what what's the benefit of that?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Well, they're the ones who are working through it.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

They're the ones that are going to be applying it in their classroom, so it's got to be something that they want to do and something that they see themselves doing.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, I'm curious, Jackie. So let's imagine that you have a teacher retire and you're gonna have a new teacher coming in. Um, and they say, Well, I'm a math teacher. Like, what does it mean? Like, what are the expectations for me as a teacher with the PBIS? So, yes, I get that there's the charge and that they stand for these attributes, and this is what I want kids to be doing, and I'll celebrate that. But what is my job and my role and in the forefront of it of like how I teach those expectations or what I look for? Like, can you explain a little bit? Like, what is the role of the teacher in that?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Absolutely. And um, I kind of missed this part when I was explaining. We have expected lessons to teach once a month.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

So the team came up with um a handbook. We have a staff handbook that has all of our lessons in it. We put them in early in the school year so that if I'm a teacher and I'm looking and planning out to April, like most of my teachers at my school like to do, then they can see in April, this is the lesson that I'm going to allow it time for. Um, and so we have a handbook with all of our prescribed lessons. Um, they have to teach the matrix in the beginning of the school year. We have a full day to talk about the matrix and work that goes around that matrix. And uh we talk about the charge card too, and then everyone gets a stamp. It's actually on one of the first days of school. I know there are mixed reviews on when to teach this type of thing, but we ended up doing it on one of the first days just so that everyone knows what's what we're expecting.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah. So how this idea that like a healthy culture isn't an an expectation. It needs to actually be taught with intentionality, right? I'm burning my hot take here. So that's all right. Great as I scramble for another during the caffeine crash that uh is is soon approaching. We started high and it's only been like half an hour and you're like falling, falling fast. And the hot take is out. So uh yeah, so I I think that's a I think that's a really important point, though, to think about is the the way we that PBIS can help create some like predictability, even around the way in which we expect uh culture uh and our students to interact and behave with one another inside of of the school, but also like the importance of teaching, intentionally teaching through the the uh through through the things that you're talking about. How has that shown uh growth with the students? The the fact that you do these lessons with them on a regular basis versus before when you weren't doing them. What difference are you seeing in the teaching of our culture?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

A lot uh of change. So we actually have our lessons that have a hands-on component. We teach an example and then we also show them the non-example.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um, we teach them about the attribute, and then we also have our charger TV students. Um, they made videos on how to act and how to behave within. I'm sure they loved that. Yes, I'm sure all of the other kids love watching it. Yes, and we included Charlie the Charger, who's our mascot. Oh, and what is Charlie? Is he a horse?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

No, I wasn't connecting, but it was a horse. I'm like lots of animals can charge, right? No, only horse.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

A charger is a type of horse, but a charger is a type of horse.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Oh, okay. Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

A little equestrian science there today on teaching tomorrow podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

And a little car talk here in Detroit, chargers being tied to like the Mustangs, the pony car. We'll talk about this. Yeah, we'll we'll talk about this off air. We we gotta update Katie on the pony car card.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

But anyway, so Charlie the Charger, who is a horse. Yeah. Katie's like back on top of the phone.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Back to Jackie.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Back to Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

So uh they like seeing Charlie, and he's a part of the videos as well. Either doing an example or a non-example. And so we didn't want the students to do our non-example, we wanted the adults to show the non-example. Yeah, yeah. And so um, kind of Charlie do it, who was a teacher in the costume. Okay. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Is it is it one teacher always playing Charlie, or do you rotate the Charlie costume?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

We rotate the Charlie costume. We need to get a dry clean. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

It's probably like hot in there.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

It's very hot in there. I've played the part before, of course, as principal.

SPEAKER_05 31:46

So I don't mean to put you on the spot. Of course, I'm one of the data people at at Oakland Schools. And so can you uh broadly speak to, like, okay, so you've been been reinventing and implementing over the years. What were some of the changes that you've maybe globally noticed in student outcomes, whether that's attendance or reduction in uh office discipline referrals or reductions in uh suspensions or detentions? Like what data do you have a hunch that, oh yeah, we notice this is better?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Um so we do collect data. We go through it every time we have a team meeting. Um and we have noticed that the classroom discipline has gone down. Um we are still working on our bus discipline. I know that all the middle school principals out there knows.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

That school bus is going round and round.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

If you talk about smells, I'm sure the bus would love to be dry cleaned.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

The bus itself. So uh that is one of the things the hallway and the classroom were our top focus points, and those areas have definitely decreased. Nice.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

So so uh how many years have you been a building administrator?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

This is my seventh year in the office. Okay. Um so I started off as an assistant principal that traveled between two middle schools. Oh wow. And then I was interim principal and now a principal. Now principal.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

So so you are an experienced, seasoned leader. So talk to that building leader that might be a little dissolution with PBIS. So like I mentioned earlier, like I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah, the one that was like, we're done with that.

SPEAKER_05 33:31

She was like, I'm done. We're not we're not doing any tickets, not doing any, like it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

Talk to that person. How can we make this work so that you get to that space where the teaching is more joyful, the kids are more motivated, and and we're in a in a space where we're seeing discipline as more of a teaching experience rather than a punishing experience. Talk to that building principal or assistant principal who's like, nah, P Bass. What do you what would you say to that person to get them to shift their perspective?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I'd ask them to consider a couple things. One, what does your data say?

SPEAKER_05 34:09

She had me there. What does the data say? Hey, go ahead, Jackie. Come on, keep talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Uh, where what kinds of disciplinary infractions are you seeing? Where are you seeing them? And really take a look at that first. When you dive deep into that, what uh outcomes do you want to see? And what characteristics do you want to teach explicitly to your students? And then it's got to be targeted. Use your data to figure out where uh you want to target your instruction and get a team together, give them some time to um get their footing with the lessons that they're going to teach about this explicit character trait that you choose based on your data. And also um get to know your students too. If the and I'm sure principals do know them, but try to see them in all different kinds of lights, not just you're in trouble, let me talk to you now. Uh, you got to get in there and and see and get to see what the teachers are seeing on a daily basis as well. I think that's one of the reasons uh why it's been successful, especially with um our sixth grade staff, is I used to be a sixth grade teacher, so I'm guilty of going down the sixth grade hall and popping into those classrooms way more than going around the other parts of the building. And they all know that I'm guilty of that.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Um, but I got to see it firsthand, especially in those classes that were piloting the program. So that's another one that I would try is pick a teacher that would pilot it and see how it works out in their classroom, do a little experiment. Yeah. Um, and then and tailor your matrix as you go. And you're probably gonna have to take a couple steps back at some point. Um, we also gave the um TFI. Uh you're gonna have to help me with that.

SPEAKER_05 36:08

A tiered fidelity inventory. Say that five times fast. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah. So we gave that to the staff um because that's one of the reasons how we got the staff input on how it was working. Yeah. So I would ask that principal to take a look at that TFI and see what do you need to do to change the program so that it's working out for your students and your staff.

unknown 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

And if you need support around the TFI at Oakland Schools, Dr. Amber Tsar. Dr.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

Amber Tsar, we got to get her on here. We do. Shout out to Dr. Amber Tsar, my girl, Dr.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Amber Zar. Who does a lot of TFIing. Yes. And supporting. And supporting and supporting.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

For sure around PBIS uh around Oakland County. Well, speaking about supporting, I'm gonna transition us to our hot topic here. Uh and our hot topic, well, not hot topic, our hot takes, where each of us takes a hot take on the uh idea of positive behavior interventions and support systems. Um Katie, would you like to go first? Katie's giving me that look like I didn't want to go first. No, no, no, no. This is great.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

I had to go last last time, and I was like so afraid that you guys would take mine. So yes, first is great, because then I can guarantee that nobody will have my hat take. Yeah, so I am building off of something that Jay said back in the beginning where he was talking about burnout, right? And he was saying that like all these alphabet soups, like they just are gonna greater contribute to burnout. And so I'm thinking about like, okay, well, we can't PBIS our way out of burnout then, right? Like that's not possible. And one of the things that I think was so beautiful about Jackie's story is that she really designed the structure and system around not just the students, but also the adults. And it feels like sometimes, and so maybe this is a hot take topic, um, is this idea that like, you know, when we when we overcommit and forget that like the adults in the system and the structure are the ones that ultimately are going to implement the thing. And we go only to thinking about the students and forget the role that the adults play. Sometimes we overshoot too much. And then that is when teachers and adults are feeling that burnout. And we know that we can't get our best from the adults that are working with the kids if they feel like the system that is being explained and expressed to them is too much. Like everyone's trying to do the best they can. And so I think something that's so amazing about what Jackie said is that she started small, she spoke to the adults, she got feedback from the adults and learned about how she could support them within that structure so that the system became sustainable. And so I guess my hot take is what Jackie is already doing, which is like get feedback and input from the adults so that you know whether or not what you're trying to PBIS is doable and possible for the adults on the system.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yeah. So I already let my hot take out of the bag about what I'm saying. That's okay. We can't even remember it.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Just say it. Say it like it's new. No, I do in hot.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

I think I think what I'm coming to now and uh building off of just the conversations we've been having, I think when we create predictability, I said that earlier, predictability among both students and adults in the space of how we define our culture. Teachers and adults are there to be a part of that conversation and shape that predictable structure. Students become clear as to the expectations within this culture. When we get to that space, I think one of the best things about PBIS is that it can create a permission structure to have fun as a student. And as an adult. It's preferable. But I I do think with a lot of things, you know, maybe from pandemic, post-pandemic moving forward, that it's almost like we need a permission structure to have to have fun and joy in our lives with each other as adults and with the kids. And PBIS when when there's clarity on both sides and those predictable spaces are are there, it is a permission structure to really have joy and and fun in the in the hall. And I bet I can tell you you are a smile, you've smiled since you walked in here. You laugh that you hear laughter in your hallways, you hear laughter in your classrooms.

SPEAKER_05 40:41

Well, I can confirm of visiting the building. Like I felt the joy and love in the school space.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Yeah, so that's it, man. If you're feeling burned out on PBIS, um, let's not ever get burned out on the idea that we want kids to have fun, and it's okay for us to have fun with them uh in our in the work we do.

SPEAKER_05 41:00

Yes. That was good, Jay. I like that. Yeah, I know. I was gonna say, Yeah, you like the two for one special. Two for one special. Um that's why you my hands a hundred grand. Imagine if I had gotten a large coffee instead of cut off and then the Jay show. He's gone. He's gone, ladies and gentlemen. Um, my hot take here, and I'm sure my my my colleagues who are at local schools can kind of relate to this. And Jackie, I think, because I'm imagining in your world you're hiring lots of people throughout your your your your tenure as as an administrator. Um I think like PBIS or something like that should be required learning for pre-service and in-service teachers. And I'm thinking about my own experience at a fantastic university, the University of Michigan, an undergrad. And I'm not that old. Okay, this year I turned 46, so I'm firmly middle middle-aged. Um, so I was an undergrad 20 years ago, uh, 20 uh yeah, 23 years ago. Um, I don't remember coursework on classroom management or student behaviors. I remember like a very generic ed psych class that kind of taught you some like theoretical concepts way up here. But I feel as though like teachers, you you learn the craft of how to create community once you get into the school, and that can either really go great or if you don't have the support, it can go sideways real, real quick. And so, what would it look like if PBIS were was a required component of your undergraduate teaching, you know, certification trackway? Um, and then when you began working as a part of your appropriationary years, this was a was a required component. Because no matter what you're teaching or what level you're teaching, you're going to be teaching children. And you're going to be teaching children who are on various pathways of really good decision making. And I think it's fundamentally unfair to create a harsh punishment environment around kids who literally mistake making is built into childhood and adolescence. We want to create an environment where they can learn and not create an environment that's so punitive in a nature that it disassociates them from the school community which they belong. But it first starts with we've got to teach the adults the right mindset, the right moves, the right how to do the expectations, even the mindset to discipline is teaching. Jackie, I love that you said that, and not discipline as punishment. Um, and so that starts with, I think, again, our pre-service and in-service teaching. So that's my hot take. Jackie, as always, with our with our hosts. We leave our hosts the the honor of having the last hot take of the episode. What say you?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

So my hot take is yes, get the staff's opinion on what they would like to do, but also don't forget to survey your students for what kinds of rewards and accolades and uh acknowledgement that they would want to see. As well. So we did a student panel and we asked them what kinds of things that they would like and how often did they get a reward and um all kinds of questions that related to their experience. And um, so it was really important to hear both sides, the staff. You shouldn't get burned out on doing something that's fun. And then also the students, what do you want to do that's so fun? Um, because it really is just all about having fun and enjoying your time together. With we all have six hours together here today. Let's make it fun, let's make it worthwhile and meaningful and learn through it and have a good time. So uh it's all about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:45

I love that energy. Well, we've had a great time with you here to J Jackie. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you for your leadership in your building in the fantastic South Lion School District community uh uh at Centennial Middle School, CMS for short. Uh Jay? Yeah, Jay.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

The positive energy that you brought into the into this space today.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Really, really after she worked all day.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

Well, well, like we're we're uh an audio only podcast, but if you could see in the studio, she has had varying degrees of a smile, but a smile throughout. Like this is a joyful leader, and I think that's exactly what we need to lead and be pioneering in this space.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

So I guess well, we hope that uh all of our listeners out there who I'm sure have as big a smile on your face after listening to the last uh 38 minutes or so of this podcast. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark some new ideas uh for your classroom or your school community. We hope you'll join us next time as we continue to elevate topics and voices that matter to you. In the meantime, do not forget. We say this every time. Every time. Every time, and we're gonna keep saying it. Do not forget to follow. That's right. Follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts. Smash the like. And leave us a rating or comment. Have you read any rating or comments?

SPEAKER_05 46:07

Are there comments? I haven't seen any comments, but we do have like high star ratings on Apple Podcasts. I've seen that and on Spotify.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

I want to see some comments.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Yeah, let's get some comments.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

All right, so thank you for rating. Please continue to rate and comment. I think we'd like to read. That's data for us. Maybe we can do a segment where we read some of the uh the comments. Let's read some of the comments that we might get. Don't threaten it. So that's a challenge to all of you out there. Um, leave some really good creative comments, and maybe we'll figure out a way to work them into future. Questions, ideas.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

What do you want us to talk about?

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Compliments season two. No, I'm at I'm hunting compliments.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Oh, hunting compliments only. I'm hunting 20 minutes of Jay reading compliments of a large coffee.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

That's it. That's what I want 20 minutes of compliments that we can read here. Uh, but no, please do uh like or subscribe. It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you like what you heard today, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration uh for the year ahead. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Bye bye.