EP14: How Does Gifted Education Fit into MTSS?

In this week’s episode, our hosts have a deep discussion with Michelle Gierman about how Gifted and Talented education fits within a MTSS Framework. Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI Strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District where she co-founded the GATE Magnet School. We hope this conversation will stretch  your understanding of Gifted and Talented education, and how we can widen the aperture of MTSS to support all students at all achievement levels. 

Hosts: Jay Haffner - Literacy Consultant, Katie Morrison - Mathematics Education Consultant, Dr. Steven Snead - Supervisor of Curriculum & Assessment.

This podcast is proudly brought to you by Oakland Schools Intermediate School District in the great state of Michigan. Oakland Schools is an educational service agency that offers support services to school districts that are best delivered regionally and provide cost, size and quality advantages to those we serve. Oakland Schools is an autonomous, tax-supported public school district governed by Michigan General School Laws and is one of 56 intermediate school districts (ISDs) established in Michigan in 1962.

If you are an educator in Oakland County, Michigan, check out www.oakland.k12.mi.us to explore the services and professional learning opportunities available to support you. 

Have feedback for the hosts? We'd love to hear from you! Email steven.snead@oakland.k12.mi.us to connect with us. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Wherever you happen to be listening to this, the one and the only. Although if you are searching Teaching Tomorrow, yes, you might find other podcasts, but this is the only Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Steven. I am but one of your hosts. Katie, we always say stick with the numbers. So I'm.333333% of our hosts. I'm Dr. Stephen Sneed. I'll let my hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi everybody. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yeah, Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools, happy to be here as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

And today is pretty special. I keep saying that like every episode is that. I mean, every episode is special. We're all special. It's like your children, right? All of them. Katie's laughing because we we all have multiple children.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Well, I'm actually wondering where you're going with this. All of our children are special. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I mean, there might be one that, okay, we're gonna, you know, like play at the park and they really like the thing that we like to do, and the other one's like, but like all of them are special. So all of our episodes here at the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast are special. This one's pretty unique, though, because we're gonna be talking about gifted and talented education. What is gifted and talented education? And I'm not so certain that the public has uh even we professionals have like quite an accurate gasp, uh grasp of what that might be. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about it today with a very special guest we'll bring in in just a minute. But as of course, we'll engage in our typical banter of, and I'll tell us to you, Katie. W in your head, what is gifted and talented education? How do you make that thing work? Like within an MTSS model, right? That's all the rave now. I guess the other end of the triangle? I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Oh, our guest is nodding her head. So I think you I think you you pinpointed it for us, Stephen. Yeah, there are a couple things I was thinking about in preparation for this. So the first one, yes, because we're really thinking about this group of students and how they fit into like the bigger system that we have within within our schools. And it feels like so often now, when we talk about MTSS, specifically from the academic side, we're really talking about like intervention for students who aren't meeting the grade level expectations. And it feels like that really monopolizes a lot of the conversation. Um, and so I feel like on, you know, from Oakland school side, we're really supporting districts and teams to think about how to build a tier one system that supports, and then from a school side, we're like, yeah, but we've got all of these kids that are in these, you know, low-performing grade bands, and how do we how do we build them up? So I think that's a part of the conversation for today is how do we expand what our definition and thinking about our MTSS system is not being exclusively from an intervention uh for students who aren't meeting needs standpoint. And then the other thing I think about is when I was a teacher, I never worked in a school or a district that had a specific like gifted program. And so it always, or a teacher or like a different curriculum or a place, right? However you're defining that for where gifted students are supported, it was always on the expectation of the teacher to come up with ways to both differentiate and scaffold down while also providing expansion opportunities up. And that feels so overwhelming as a teacher. I remember like being in a place where you're sitting there saying, Of course I want to do what's best for all of my special children. But I also only have set amounts of time, set amount of like expectations I can get through. So often it feels like I'm going more and more towards the middle. And really thinking about if that's how teachers feel, then it really is our job as leaders, both at the building level and district level, to help provide the supports to ensure that teachers aren't feeling that weight of providing all of the exclusive differentiation, especially when you don't have specific gifted programs or teachers or um set curriculums for those students.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Or even like the support, the knowledge base to be able to design and event systems that do support and engage these students. And you're right, like teachers have all this weight. We put all of this weight on the teachers now. We really have to unthink some of our current existing systems to really think differently about how we might serve kids. Jay, what do you say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah, I'm I'm curious to talk to our guests today and have you know ask and talk through a lot of different things, some which are system related, I think is an important conversation uh to have, but also like framing it really specifically to the kids and and the child. Like where in what ways are we is the system designed to sort of identify a child as gifted and talented, and what does that mean? And and and what are the repercussions of of that and and making sure that we're serving the needs of the students. So I'm curious about that because I think like over the course of time, there's been an evolving nature to gifted and talented programs and the way in which we provide supports uh to students that are identified as gifted and talented. I think another thing that I'm really fascinated by is there there just seems to be a lot of like there isn't like a uniform understanding within the structure to say that like this is the work we're doing for gifted and talented students across the country for sure. Not even within the state and probably even within the county, from like one area to the next. Uh the systems, I'm not sure. And I want to unpack it a little more to see like in what ways are the systems serving each other, aligned with each other, or in conflict with one another. And so I think like when I was when I was thinking through this, I started with the question of thinking like, okay, so like is this child gifted? But then I'm like, that's a pretty like existential question that's got a lot of nuance to it. So maybe if the question that we're grappling with instead, it's not is this child gifted, but what does this child need? It gets us a little closer to the systems-based conversation around MTSS and the role it plays within. So those are those are just the thoughts I had. And really, like a lot of times when we have a guest, I feel close to the issue itself and in the unpacking and hearing this one, I'm really curious to hear what our guest has to say and feeling like engaged in doing a little learning myself around ways in which uh w we can we can do the best that we can for these kids.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

You know, that today's topic really stretches me. You know, I'm being fully transparent because when I think about system building, you know, obviously uh no matter the date that you're listening to this podcast, we are talking about like PA 146 and literacy and making sure all children and so my default position is trying to help students who aren't yet at proficiency and growth. And so today's conversation is stretching me to really think about okay, yes, and your system also needs to meet the kids who are already there and they're past there. They need something a little different.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Um and and I'm a sucker for public schools, man. I love public schools. Like this this is the only thing I've ever done professionally has been public schools. And I think it's a challenge for us in the public space, a good challenge that we need to embrace is to think about and design uh systems of support for gifted students as opposed to alternative, well, go to the private school down the street. And not that I'm shading private schools, if if people independently to choose to do that is after they choose the best of their family, that that's great. I want a high quality public education for all students. And we really have to sit and really think all means all. And although that's like, oh yeah, that's right. But when you really sit and think of it, ooh, right, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Not just some, not most, or not like a specific one-identified population, but everybody. So, Jay, I'm I'm with you in your curiosity, my good man. Uh, Katie, I believe you are going to introduce. Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

I'm so excited to introduce our wonderful, wonderful guest, Michelle Gearman. So, Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District, where she co-founded the Gate Magnet School in Avondale. Additionally, she serves as an advocacy chair for the Michigan Association for Gifted Children and is the AI ambassador and AI State steering committee member for Michigan Virtual. So Michelle has a lot of things going for her. And a lot of titles. Yes, and a lot of titles.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You know, I'm in good company because I'm also very curious. And that's what keeps me seeking opportunities to learn more, and that's where all these extra hats come on. All right. Um but I love that you're curious. That's the best place to be when to talk about something. And so I think since we're start, I heard you starting with curiosity. I'm gonna start with maybe just some misconceptions that can be out there around. Break it down, break it down. Yes. And so um, one of them is when we think gifted children, we think high achieving. A lot of times that's what, like if you just say close your eyes and picture, you know, gifted children learning. Um, that's you picture things like that, like young Sheldon and things like that, where they have this high achieving capacity, and they may have some differences um socially or little things like that, but people don't picture um like two E or twice exceptional students. People don't picture underachieving gifted students, of which there are many, um, because of the fact that we don't have systems in place to engage them specifically. And gifted so twice exceptional going along with that, what does twice exceptional mean? So you are gifted, but you also have dyslexia. There is a correlation. You also have ADHD, there is a correlation. You might be on the ASD spectrum, and there giftedness has a correlation with all of those. Um, and not just twice exceptional, but gifted students in general have something called asynchronous development. And people think of that as, oh, you know, you have a seven-year-old, and they can do ninth grade math, but um socially they behave more like a four-year-old. And so they think of things, but really it can also be that you have skills in one area, one way of thinking, maybe verbal linguistic, but you are underdeveloped in executive functioning or your numeracy or things like that. So um to be gifted can look so many different ways. Yeah. And so, um, and I love that you're talking about, you know, the empathy for teachers too. So step one, as Jay pointed out, would be identification. How do we know what these kids need? We don't have to call them gifted or or anything, but if I notice a student is struggling perhaps with reading um and understanding sound and letter correspondence, you know, we're thinking maybe they maybe they have an issue with dyslexia, maybe they haven't had the right instruction. But what do they need, right? They need for us to to use the science of reading, right? And to up the intensity as much as we need to until it works. And it's the same thing for gifted kids. If they're not engaging in the content, there could be some asynchronous development, there could be some gaps. There could be some ways that um their emotional intensity or their need for autonomy and relevance um is really what they need. And so when you think about things like universal design for learning as a tier one approach, which I know Oakland Schools is amazing. I've been to your universal design uh learning things. And there's a lot you can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

We didn't even pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Well done. We can end the episode now. We've got to pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

They did it. Um but really it does work well because if you are embedding right in there a lot of voice and choice and some different differentiated experiences students can have, um, gifted students might need to choose in some subjects something that has more scaffolding. They might need more thin slicing in and in math for something. So um it works for everybody, right? It is universal design for learning, but um that's really the tier one approach. If you are identifying some students and you're saying, okay, their their needs aren't being met, I'm not sure why. And now that I've heard of this thing, this gifted, what is that? What does it look like? And I can definitely share some resources for any listeners that would like them. Um there's some free modules online that are free to to anyone on edupaths because we don't have mandates or funding in Michigan. We haven't since um around 2009. It's been a while. So it's it's not we don't we don't have like a lot of conversation around these things. And so it's like, okay, well, where are the resources? I'd love to identify these kids. I'd love to get some professional development around that. But because there is no mandate and there is no funding, um, whereas when it comes to the science of reading and dyslexia, there is there are mandates or if there's funding, um, it's harder to come by those resources. And so, you know, I want to frame today around some very low prep, um getting started things like identification and resources. And then if you do, if you're at a place as a listener where you're you have good tier one, you have an understanding of what gifted students might look like when they're not engaging or they're asking more questions than they are answering them. Um, high achieving students, their hands always up, they've got all the answers. You can have high achieving gifted students, or you might have a gifted student who asks a lot of questions, doesn't produce a lot of work, even though verbally it sounds like they could. You know, what's going on there? Um and also gifted students come from all different backgrounds. When you when you do have some sort of universal testing in place, um, you are reaching so many more of your underserved populations, and people sometimes forget to see how many underserved populations fall into that gifted category and what serving them can do for their for their life in so many ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, Michelle, let me let me ask you this this question because we like to we we hope we have a bifurcated audience here teaching tomorrow or classroom teachers like what can you do tomorrow? But then also like school leaders, like like what how can I think about my school and supporting my kiddos? So talk to the the building leader or the district leader who's listening to this right now. What might be some things that they could do at a broader school-wide and or district wide level to really get into uh identifying and supporting students who are gifted. What could our leaders do?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I think being curious would be the the first basic thing and saying, I want to know more about what gifted students might look like or need so that then they can find those resources. And we live in a world where it's not super difficult to find resources, but making sure those resources are high-quality resources that do talk about the many portraits of gifted learners because there are many. Um and if that leader, you know, is curious about that and learns about that and finds resources to share to just bring that shared understanding and how can we make space for that? I'll be honest. When we think about equity, when you start to make space for this understanding of portraits of gifted learners, that time, that energy, it's not gonna come from that extra time and energy you had laying around because that doesn't exist. You're gonna have to say to yourself, why is this important in our district right now? And how much time can I carve out from somewhere else? When is it a good time to do that? Yeah, when is an appropriate time to be okay to do that? Um, and everyone's in a different place with whether they have time, capacity, you know, and readiness to do that. But being curious, you can start now. And when you have that spare time to find out things on your own to start to share, you also might want to pull your community. Who in your community already knows some things? I bet you have some parents of gifted students who just are very curious about how to serve their child and advocate for their child. So you'd be surprised, even in our 28 districts in Oakland County, how many parents of gifted children there are that I've spoken to who have a lot of knowledge around because they were trying to figure out what portrait of a gifted student does my baby belong to and what do they need. So draw on that capacity that you already have. That's another way to be curious. Um, so those would be some good first first steps.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, I think one of the things we love to do is talk about best practices. And I love that you dove right into telling us about what's something the teacher can do. And Stephen brought us in to think about leaders. I wonder if we could like step back a little bit because I think there's a couple things that you've elicited in the conversation that I think are worthy of like greater exploration. So the first is that the state of Michigan, based on what you said, doesn't currently provide additional money or resources for specific gifted education programming. Is that correct? That is very sadly correct. And so I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on Avondale's story, right? We said in your introduction that you helped co-found the Gate Magnet program at Avondale. And we love highlighting and elevating sharing stories and want to make sure that Avondale gets all the credit and um shoutouts that it deserves. So I wonder if you could, as much as you are willing to share with us, like what is Avondale's story and journey in in creating this kind of programming and space in your district?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So yeah, I would love to tell Avondale's story. Um so it's shout out to Avondale. Thank you. Um so Avondale started really with this particular journey based on some parents who came to the board and said, are you willing to look into serving gifted students and kind of bringing up some of the misconceptions right away and some of the things that they felt their children needed? Um and one thing I love about Avondale is I have to say Avondale is a district that doesn't mind being unique, doesn't mind trying new things, and it's small enough and family enough that those lines of communication are tight enough that you can kind of make change in a at a reasonable pace. And so they said yes. And so I'll try to include the most important parts on the timeline because I could go into a whole fireside chat for like an hour and I won't do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, we'll bring you in for like a part two.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Season two, part two.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Um but so then the work began and they started saying, okay, and so they found myself and Kate Martin, and um we began the work and began design and Kate had a background in uh North Carolina with gifted education. I had a background um in all of my education. I have a gifted son, and so I had just always been passionate about that. So even though Michigan didn't have things in place when I was implementing things, um, that's where my curiosity started from. And so we had kind of a an interesting mix of skills ourselves, and we dove right into best practices and gifted education and um what are some different curriculums like we liked Jacob's Latter and William William and Mary. We talked about curriculum compacting, which is kind of a tier two thing. We talked about pre and post assessments to really understand, meet kids where they are. Um, and so just really got into a lot of discussion over like a whole summer. Um, and when we and then we had to start with the the one of the hardest things is identification. And so we've had a journey through that. We started with we had our NWEA testing and we had these writing samples and some different things that first year. We now and also include the Cogat over the last several years, which is a cognitive abilities test. Um and so that's where it started. And that first year, you know, what that we did our uh screening, we realized we need to change a couple of things about the screening um to make it and so in including the COGAT. Um, and we learned that wow, you know, we are getting many different portraits of gifted learners, and they are some of them are very high verbal linguistically, some of them it's math. They're not globally gifted in every subject. Wow, we have some intense emotions, some asynchronous development, some twice exceptional students with high needs. Um, and we, you know, we expected that, right? Because we were we had background and we we talked about it. But even with that small sampling of population, it just it was obvious this is hard work. It takes time. And we intentionally grew slow from the beginning because we needed to keep adding on systems and adding on multi tiered systems of supports so that we could get to a place um to Expand. And so I will say that I think that was our secret sauce was growing slow enough, being small enough, meeting often enough, and staying really student centered. Um, and you do have to communicate with the families quite a bit because of the uniqueness of um the portraits of gifted students as well. And you have to do that with all students. Um, but these parents are usually ready to advocate. And that is an extra challenge. As a parent of a gifted child, I was ready for it because I know what it feels like to feel like you need to advocate and no one even knows what you're talking about because there's no system and no vocabulary in place and you're talking a foreign language. Um, so that's been one of the most wonderful parts is really listening to families and getting to a place of understanding and really seeing the children and helping each other um from both sides. And um, yeah, so that would be like the start of the journey. And and from there we've just expanded as we could. Um, of course, we've had difficulties like you know, change in leadership, which we're in such an excellent place now, but that's hard. Changing buildings, that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Um, changing curriculums, you know. And so all of those things along the way, um, the trajectory is has a little bit up and down as we go towards continuous improvement. Right now we meet weekly as a team for our gifted programming, and um, that's hard to commit to, but without it, we wouldn't be able to do what we do.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah. I wanna I wanna talk a little bit about coherence across the system that we're talking about in regards to to gifted and talented. And I mentioned this earlier that it feels in and you mentioned it also, this this idea that we don't even have like a really a coherent language, even from like one area to the next in how we talk about or even define gifted and talented, let alone be able to identify and then provide the supports. The one thing that I have heard in this conversation that does bring a little coherence and understanding is the relationship it has with MTSS. MTSS is beginning or or it is in an area where it's a coherent language of understanding. We definitely have different levels of implementation, but I think whether whether you're living in Avondale or Ferndale or Michigan or New York, there is an understanding around MTSS and its inherent understanding of what it's supposed to do. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, so I guess it's like a two-part question. Number one, the way in which MTSS specifically plays a role in providing support for gifted and talented students, that's number one. And number two is like from there, what other conversations are you having, if any, with like those in neighboring districts or those in neighboring states? Like, where is that conversation happening to sort of bring just a little more alignment and coherence around what it is we mean when we say gifted and talented?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's an excellent question. So for the multi-tiered systems of supports in Avondale, um, for me, this is my third year as the gifted education coordinator. So I'm in all seven buildings, right? We have our magnet school, we're it's all public school. Um our magnet school is a center program. Um, and so the teachers there have had more training with some of those high needs for SEL, emotional intensity, and things like that. Um, but we do also, I am in all the the buildings for tier one. And a lot of what we do is we talk about 3P learning, UDL. Um, I help teachers look at different data to identify students. Um, we piloted using the Naglieri nonverbal assessment in one of our buildings. And um, you know, we you know, what I love about that is um it's nonverbal. It's completely pictorial directions. And so we do have, you know, you have some ELD students and some students who um might be in special ed but also be gifted. And so I was it's really great to have these experiences where teachers have this like paradigm shift or this mind shift of what does it mean to be gifted? Um, how might that present? And so just any time I'm seeing in buildings where we're able to reach more students. So tier one is really that we are trying to increase the culture of understanding around what giftedness might look like. And um, sometimes it's your students who are high energy and uh I'll just be honest, a behavior problem. Um, and they're bored and they refuse to engage. I mean, they're saying I already know this, but they refuse to even show you because for them, doing something that feels irrelevant feels unfair and they have this strong sense of justice. And so the inclination is to be like, well, they must not know it, or and sometimes they don't. I won't say gifted students don't sometimes say this is too easy because they're the fear of that identity complex and they actually don't know. That happens too. So many things happen. But um, but just building this understanding. And what I love about it is, you know, like at Avondale High School, the teachers there, if they see a student that you know, their their papers are all a mess, they don't turn things in on time, and it does they're not gonna say, well, how could they be gifted? Because they know asynchronous development, lack of executive functioning, that could be a sign of giftedness. But I'm hearing things they say and I'm seeing some data that really doesn't match up with their performance. So what does this student need? Or what am I even, what is learning and what am I assessing in the first place? Like, why is there a mismatch in general, right? And so, because um, we know we gifted students really do, um, just to be a little, you know, in the field for a minute, they really do have this need for purpose and they want to learn and they're curious, and they have these intense emotions and existential crises about is life worth anything? Does anything even matter? Is this all a joke? What is school? Why am I here? And so um, when you can channel that and really get to understand them and make school relevant for them, um, it can be a beautiful thing and it it really is kind of contagious. Like I love working with students, you know, in all of the buildings. And sometimes it's not, it's the buildings that aren't a center program that can be the most rewarding because families who had no idea their child was gifted are finding that out. Um, students who are behind in reading um are being recognized because we're seeing, oh, you're you have some of these gifted tendencies. And so um there's other ways for that to show up. And when students have these ways of demonstrating who they are and being themselves, they they do, and they're they might be in intervention and gifted supports. It can happen, you know, and so just seeing children for who they are and seeing what they need, what whoever they are, is tier one. And then just universal design for learning um is also part of that. And when you're doing projects um at any level, you know, high school, middle school, elementary level, there's a chance for everyone to see themselves in that solution. What is that problem you're working on? Um, I can see myself in that solution. I don't have to be someone who goes to college to see myself in that, and not all gifted students want to go to college or need to, right? And so, like just providing those opportunities for everybody to feel a sense of belonging and be seen and have the learning be relevant to them. So, kind of breaking out of some of the linear models can really help you to be able to do that. And so being flexible, that that's the tier one. And so then tier two, of course, is gonna be getting into pre and post assessments, maybe some curriculum compacting. That is a lot of work if you haven't had um professional development in that area. It's not something you can just say, I'll do that tomorrow. Um, it's hard and it takes time and carving out space for that is hard. Tier two, it's hard to go to the tier two level because then tier three might be an actual grade acceleration, where maybe you have your two, three hallway, second and third grade hallway, um teaching second, third, and fourth grade math or or more or beyond. It takes a lot of teaming. So to go beyond the tier one, it's really about being a team, collaboration and unity with your team.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

But let me ask you this question. I know we're running out of time here. Uh just to be clear, like Avondale Gate is a school. Like you have a separate school, so it's not like a program, it is a school.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

It's a school, it's its own building, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

It's its own building. What made you all decide to go that route as opposed to like a program in schools or like here's some extra things for teachers to do? Like, what was that like you're at the crossover points, like, ooh, we need to do something really different here with a with an entirely separate school? How did that decision play out?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

I think it was listening to our community that had already been in schools that were trying to do that, and we already were a district that did talk about differentiation. We already had quite a wide variety of learning abilities. Um and so we started our first year in Woodland. So we were just two classrooms in Woodland. We had 30 kids our first year. Now we have over 400 just for the gate magnet program.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Wait a minute, hold up, pause. You have how many kids?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

We'll have over 400 next year.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

400 next year.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

From a staff of two, just me and Kate doing the curriculum design, the everything to now a staff of like 30, over 30. So it's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Yeah. How long did it take you to grow that?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

So from 2017 until now. Wow. Yeah. And and that might sound fast, but I feel like we, you know, we could have gone faster based on the needs and the people who wanted to be a part of the program, but um, you know, we tried to go as slow as we possibly could. But the people who initially came to us um asking for this and came to the board asking for this, and the things they were talking about really did lend itself to a cohort of students that would get highly specialized instruction. Um, and students that really needed, you know, we had even in that first couple of years students that were many grade levels ahead. Um, and so we were like, okay, we do want to be able to um talk about the UDL principles. And it was called something a little bit different back then, but we wanted to be able to talk about how to meet these kids' needs and do some pre and post assessments. And that culture started everywhere and started to spread, especially at Woodland where we were housed. Um and Woodland tradition, you know, was doing a lot of the things that we were doing with the tier one as far as differentiation and pre and post test and things like that. So we teamed with them. Um and then with the kids who are actually a part of those classrooms, a lot of them did have some higher needs and did really have more um and so for them, we really do believe in homogenous grouping being an important part of a gifted student's day, meaning they are able to learn alongside peers at the same level and challenge each other and motivate each other. But there's also some time um for mixed grouping as well. Um and right now when I work with students, it's uh it's push-in where I co-teach with teachers in the classroom. It's pull out where I have cohorts in different in all the different buildings, and then they bring their learning into the classroom and it spreads. And when kids are presenting learning and other kids say, I want to do that, can I do that? Yes, you can. It's for everyone. You like, like you want to read that challenging book? Absolutely. Let's support you so that you're able to do that. So I think it's important to note you don't have to isolate these kids. You want to be able to have some of that homogenous grouping and those that cohorting time for them. Um, but you also want to have some time for them to be a part of the whole world and and have as much social experience as possible. So that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Well, speaking of time, man, we definitely need to bring her back backhand for our part two. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. Yeah. But what's such a rich conversation? We're gonna transition to our hot topic time where we're just gonna throw out a little or a a hot, hot take, hot takes rather, uh on this. Uh I'll kind of go first, but really quickly. Budget. If you are a school leader, yeah, you need to really be thinking about this is a population of kids that probably is underserved in your space. And as leaders, uh and even for my teachers who are aspiring leaders as well. Uh how do we put our money where our mouth is? So if this is really important, if we really want to support this, you know, obviously there's larger conversations at the state, but even within your cool community, how can we allocate resources in such a way that support the this these these group of kids? That's my hot take. Jay, what about you? What you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah, I mean, I was struck by, you know, the uh this the uh the fact that you brought to the table that Michigan hasn't funded gifted and talented education since, what was it, 2009? Since 2009, and that gets me thinking like when there is a lack of funding, there tends to be a lack of urgency around creating systems of support around it. So as Steven said, let's put our money where our mouth is. I'm thinking we need to put our money where our systems aren't and and figure out a way to create systems and lean in MTSS in a way that maybe takes the triangle and makes it more of a diamond that becomes a little more inclusive of the needs of gifted and talented students. The other thing I was struck by, and I think it's important to mention here really quickly, is you mentioned on a number of occasions parents advocating on behalf of their students to boards. You yourself have had to advocate on behalf of your own son. And while we definitely encourage all the parent advocacy, if parent advocacy is the thing that's driving impact in a district, that's an equitability issue. That means we don't have the systems there to service the students. If it takes parents at board meetings to advocate for groups and subsets of students, we are failing them on an equitability basis. And so, yeah, that's that's my hot take. Let's put our money where our systems aren't and really take a really close hard look at ways in which we can turn the triangle into a more of a diamond support within MTSS.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Because you know what they say about diamonds. Diamonds are forever. Hopefully that didn't violate copyright. Katie, oh, it did.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Oh, I was I thought you were gonna say something about a shape that was really hard to break, but no. Okay. Um so yes, y'all go deep today, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I was thinking, you know, there's something that Michelle said, building off of what Jay said, um, about like really thinking about your system and saying I'm gonna have to carve out yes money, yes, resources, think about my system, but also like the time and the energy, right? To really think about like if I give my time and energy to this, it means inevitably I'm going to have to take away from somewhere else. And so my hot take is like thinking about like a meeting structure that already exists, right? So when we have our weekly or bi-weekly or monthly MTS meetings where we're looking at data and we're looking at students, and we typically ask questions about what students aren't. I'm going to push everyone to ask a second question that has them really thinking about well, what students are ready to go further? And what are we specifically doing to support those students who have shown us and proven to us that they're ready to go beyond what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Go ahead, Katie. Well, as always, we leave our last hot take to our esteemed guests. You take us out. What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Well, you three all had hot takes that give us a lot of work to do and things to think about. And I think I want to have a hot take of hope and just say, I think it's beautiful that you even wanted to you approached me to do this podcast, meaning that you care about it. I love that that Oakland Schools is actually saying this is something we want to start thinking more about. And um, I do think that there is a lot of opportunity to advocate at the state level. I do have uh Day on the Hill in Lansing April 22nd, and we're we're trying. I want you to know that I care a lot, and I am trying. And we are meeting with legislators, we have lobbyists, and so um it's been ongoing work and there's a lot of dead ends, just like everything in life, but we will never give up. I promise you, I won't give up. So together we can do more, and every little tiny step we make, if it doesn't get you to that finish line real quick, it's still all rolling together, rolling along. So any little tiny step you make towards serving gifted students is making an impact, I promise. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, I just uh want to just give you, Michelle, a huge thank you for uh not only joining us today, but the work that you do. Yes. Uh you I know you you come in and you have great support with the colleagues you work with at Avondale, but when we think about just the larger ecosphere of education, it can feel pretty lonely in the path that you're trying to carve and the supports you're trying to bring uh for students. So a huge thank you uh to Michelle Gearman for joining us today and to all of you uh for spending this time with us. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark new ideas for your classroom and school community. So we hope you will join us next time for are we calling it our season finale?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Season finale.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

Season finale season one of the. We made it.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yes, we've made it to the season finale of our yes, of our podcast. Join us next time for that uh exciting conversation that I know you won't want to miss. In the meantime, you have two more chances, this episode and next, to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow, wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. Jay, you didn't tell them. Tell them what? I tell them. You tell them. That's not my job. There you go. That's your job. And if you liked what you heard, please share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration in the work that they do. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe.