Feel Worthy Podcast

26: Handle Scope Creep Without Burning Bridges | Gabriella Robuccio

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Kayla Worthy is joined by Gabriella Robuccio to talk about scope creep in event planning and why “just one more thing” can quickly impact your timeline, budget, team capacity, and event strategy.

Together, they share practical ways event professionals can manage extra requests without burning bridges or burning out. 

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Feel Worthy Podcast Links: https://linktr.ee/feelworthypodcast

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SPEAKER_00

Hi everyone, this is your host, Kayla, and I am back with another episode of the Feelworthy Podcast. This time we are bringing back guest from episode number one, Gabriella Rabuccio, to talk about a new topic. This episode dives deep into the conversation about what is Scope Creep. Gabriella has spent nearly 18 years in high-stakes environments navigating what the leadership message is and what they want it to be, and how that translates to what the people on the ground doing the work, making the magic happen, what that really translates to. What do they hear? What are they seeing? What are they feeling? And where's the disconnect between these two different groups of people? She developed a skill set that most organizations don't know they need until they're already in trouble. And she now brings that into organizations navigating mergers, leadership transitions, board conflict, and governance crisis. She sees what is breaking before anyone even knows where to look. She's kind of like a superhero. And surprised, or maybe not a surprise, Scope Creep is a really big part of this conversation. She spends a lot of time identifying relationships and how to make them better. And I so admire her for it. We dive into all things about Scope Creep in this episode, bring in a little fun, and have a passionate conversation about how we can help event professionals learn what it's like to be in it, know how to get out of it, and how to really articulate themselves through it. So a really jam-packed episode. I'm so excited to have this topic on here. If you have more questions, let us know. And without further ado, let's get into it Gabby. Welcome back to the Feelworthy Podcast. I'm excited. I'm so excited you're here. I'm always excited to talk to you, but like formally on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. I love when people can hear our conversations too, because we get some good nuggets usually. So it's always like, yes, let's spread this with the world.

SPEAKER_00

My mom I know. They need to be a fly on the wall. I love it. Um, I I have had like people listen, I I hope, but from based on what Bus Sprouts tells me, people are listening. Um, and also like my mom has shared it, which at first I was like, if the only person that listens is my mom, that's fine. But she shared it with her coworkers and they sent me a screenshot. I don't know if I ever sent it to you, but it was the first episode of the podcast or my episode with you. My mom was like, Who's that girl that you had on the podcast? I love her. She's cursing, and it was crazy. Sorry. I was like, She's also a northeasterner, so yes. And she's like, No, I loved it. It was great, and I love her. And I was like, That's Gabby, I love her too.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, thanks, Mom.

SPEAKER_00

I know, and like I listened to your dad's podcast, and I'm like, Your parents are so cool. I do have pretty cool parents, I have to say, and they would totally just like do the Glinda like toss-toss if they like heard this, and I'll slimp it just for them because they will all be just so excited to hear. Yes, that's the whole story. Other people think they're cool. I hope my kid says that about me one day, so we'll see if that happens.

SPEAKER_01

I was laughing because I was I was waiting for you to finish so I could talk about your like your our kids telling us that their husbands are their best friends. Your when I read your response to Ben out loud, he cackled like if dad's your best friend, what am I? And his response was sorry, mommy. That literally, like, if I've never related to a message more in my life.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, Okay, it's fine. You know what? It's fine. Um Tidal will turn, I promise. It will. I mean, there was a moment and there was a time where dad was a jealous one, and dad was like, I he wants you all the time, he only wants you, and I was like, it's fine, he loves you, and I And now you're like, dang it. He I thought I had to like seven, not five. But now he's just like, Oh, dad's so cool. He shows me all these things. My dad is Superman, and I'm like, Well again, what am I?

SPEAKER_01

Don't worry, it'll switch back and forth when he has to start dealing with girls and people in high school and like relation, you're gonna be the person, and you know that.

SPEAKER_00

We'll see. I hope. One could hope. Um we'll see how it all pans out. We'll do another podcast sooner than like the next 10 years, but like also in 10 years.

SPEAKER_01

Oh god, 10 years. Let's not think I'm gonna have a preteen what no, okay.

SPEAKER_00

We won't go there, we won't get there, but we'll talk about the topic that we were meant to talk about, but we can talk about more. We we even called this that there would be other like side conversations. I know.

SPEAKER_01

I was like, we'll try and strike stick to the script, but this is how we roll, so it's fine, it's better this way, it's better this way.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, scope creep. I want to level set with everyone. For those who have been in the industry for years, they probably already know what this is. But those that aren't maybe new or just haven't heard about it, what exactly is scope creep?

SPEAKER_01

It's oh it's so funny because you hear that term, everybody knows what it means, but like the actual definition, it's when the scope of your work changes, it goes beyond what was originally discussed without adjusting timeline, monetary compensation, resources, that type of stuff. So, like plans change, always gonna change, especially if you come into this industry. But if those things don't adjust with it, it becomes scope creep. That's when it starts to creep over the boundary.

SPEAKER_00

I will admit, when I was first starting out in my career, I just thought these things naturally happened and they just keep adding because minds change, events are so fluid, and I didn't realize there was a term for it, but at this point in time, I guess there's a term for everything.

SPEAKER_01

There is yes, that's social media for you. No, and it's catchy too. Scope creep, right? It's when they creep beyond, but I mean, like, you're right, that's always gonna happen in events, that's just how it rolls. But if you don't get, you know, allocated time and resources, then it becomes a negative and not just part of the job like we always think it is.

SPEAKER_00

We're gonna totally dive into that because this entire podcast episode was inspired by your amazing workshop where I was diligently writing notes on the plane, and because plane time is the best time to focus and just tune everything out for me. Um, so I was like, we have to have this conversation here too, and then when you have your workshop again, more people can join and dive deeper, but at least give them a taste of what this is all about. So, from your extensive experience, do you remember the first time you ever experienced scope cream?

SPEAKER_01

The first, I mean, I don't know if I remember specifically the first instance, but I do remember it being my first role in events. Me thinking that it was just part of the job and not understanding that I didn't have to say yes to everything that came my way without any pushback. So, like, even at ESPN, I think about the World Cup, which was the first event I ever worked. I know, but like working on the World Cup, I think about it and I'm like, how much time did I spend doing things, fixing things that were not in my job description that I probably should have pushed back on till I got to the point of burnout? You know, like I think about it and I'm like, it started with my first event. I don't remember the exact instance, but it was like feeling like I couldn't say no to anyone because of what my job was, I feel like has been around since I started. Like that was a very hard lesson to learn.

SPEAKER_00

And I that's a really good point because what about your job or the title like made you feel like you couldn't say no?

SPEAKER_01

Well, because the way that we're event professionals, well, and I was production manager, so that was my official title when I was at ESPN, and it was you're in live TV, people need something, you make it happen. Like you are logistics, you are I was called the sport mother, even though there was men on our team too, but like you are the person that finds out the information, disseminates the information, fixes things when they get messed up. And so when I'm told that that's what my job is, I assume I have to do that without any pushback or without any question, especially when you're new and you're working at your dream job, so you want to make a good impression. But it was like the event professionals are highly recognized for making magic happen, for pulling things out of thin air, for having the hustle, hustle, hustle. So, like I think it an industry standard, it's probably not a healthy one, but I think that's why anyone in this world has probably been told that that's their job. Like, make it happen. Customers always right, clients always right.

SPEAKER_00

I think there's so much pride in just this idea of like making it happen. Like, I made the impossible happen, and it felt like I guess our version of climbing Mount Everest, and I'm sure there are real people climbing Mount Everest, but again, our version of that of like ah, we conquered it, we did it, we did what other people thought wasn't possible. So, like, we're superheroes. So, with all of that in mind, how do you balance what is in the scope and how do you and what's just being flexible, right? Like, I can get the coffee, right? I can make that happen, versus where it now starts to bubble over and the creep is actually more than what you thought was the original intent. Yeah, how do you define that?

SPEAKER_01

So I think most importantly for this, this is such a good question, and it's the difference between being flexible and burnout is a lack of boundaries. So you can climb Mount Everest, you can make magic happen in events, you can do that without burning yourself into the ground at both ends, whatever the expression is, I don't even know right now. Don't laugh at me. But like what you can do it without the burnout. Like, there is a way to be the person for the team while also having boundaries. I remember that I used to think that being flexible meant not having boundaries, and I think that is completely backwards. Like, oh, if I set a boundary, people are gonna think I'm difficult to work with, or like I'm not doing my job. I wish I had learned it sooner, didn't learn it probably until what year 12 in my career. People respected me a lot more and appreciated my work a lot more when I had boundaries because it creates trust and mutual respect between the two people. It's like setting boundaries is professional and self-respect. People love seeing that, and I think when you're in this profession specifically, you don't think that you can have that without looking different being difficult. You can be flexible about making something happen or creating something, but that doesn't mean that you have to do it at the cost of your mental health, or doesn't mean you have to do it for free. Doesn't mean that you have to do it in time that you don't like in a shortened timeline, you know, like understanding when it's going beyond reasonable limits, which I guess is probably the hardest part, right? Like, what the hell is reasonable? Therein lies my next thought.

SPEAKER_00

And it things you're talking about sound very similar to like what we talked about in our last conversation about self-awareness, about emotional intelligence. How do you think those two topics connect between scope creep and emotional intelligence?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, scope creep happens when there is a lack of boundaries, a lack of trust, a lack of respect. What are those the three main components of relationships? And you can't have positive relationships without that like foundation of emotional intelligence, which if people didn't listen to the first episode, that's like being self-aware enough to manage your own reactions and emotions, not lose them completely, just manage them because once you manage that, you are able to become more socially aware and understand how to interact with the people around you, which i.e. set boundaries, create that level of trust. So it's like those are the three main components of a relationship. And if you don't have those established, you're gonna get creeped on. I just love that term.

SPEAKER_00

There's and this is my millennial self coming out because there's a lonely island, they have a song to the creep. So every time I hear the phrase group creep, I just like see them in their little like weird poses.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I mean. Yeah, yes, and you yep, anyway. For those who haven't seen it, feel free to YouTube that. Um, so just concretely now. Okay, so in it I want to go in so many directions, but we'll go to the relationship part in a second. But I really want to start with if you are like new to this, what concretely can you look at and say, what are signs that scope creep is about to happen or is happening?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's a great question. And I'm gonna do it by talking what I talked about in the workshop because I think it's the best way to visualize it. So there's in all the research and reading that I've done, which is an absurd amount, I don't know why I spent so much time on scope creep, it's because I know how much it affects people. But I narrowed it down to three different types of scope creep that happened. So the first one is is the slow creep. That's what, like death by a thousand tweaks. So that's when you hey, can you just do this? Hey, do you mind just doing this real quick? Hey, if you're already in there, can you do that? Hey, if you're already out, can you do that? Seems small at first, and then you know, 15 20-minute tasks don't feel like a lot apart, but when you start adding that together, then you're giving hours and hours of free work that wasn't originally in the plan or the scope. So, like when you start to notice that the small requests don't feel small anymore because there are so many of them, that is scope creep. The the second one um is the emergency creep. This one is like the most obvious. Like, this has to happen. The CEO's coming, we now have to have a VIP reception in 10 days, but you don't get any more budget. Thanks. You know, like it's an emergency, it has to happen, or the event falls apart and the world ends. That's the emergency creep, and that is that's we'll talk about that, that's the hardest one because that's like everybody, the sense of urgency is like you ask questions later, you just do it. Well, push back on that. And then there's the bait and switch, which is probably the most common in our industry, specifically, like the death by a thousand tweaks is common, but this one, the bait and switch is for event professionals, that's like unclear expectations from the beginning. And what I mean by that is you sign a contract or accept a position, event manager. Ask six different people in events what event manager is. You're gonna get six different definitions. So, like if you don't define that clearly, there your client, your boss is expecting that to be social marketing, it's expecting it to be sponsorships, it's expecting like all that where you thought you were just doing the logistics piece of it. You're just doing the on-site piece, blah blah blah, whatever it is, like not having those clear expectations. So if you find yourself in conversations with your boss and you're like, what the heck? Why is he asking me to do marketing? Or like, was I supposed to be getting sponsors for this event? Was that my job? Don't we have a department for that? You know, that that's another very clear sign that there is some scope getting creeped on for sure. Those are the three main ways that I try and make it clear so people can sit and say, Oh wow, yeah, that's happening.

SPEAKER_00

When you said all three of them, I could think of three different scenarios in each of them. So I it's very clear, and it sounds like because I'm a big proponent of doing this, writing things down, but like as clearly as possible could help to make it a bit more tangible and clear. And I know not every event is built to like another, every event will have changes, but is that a good starting point to memorialize at least what the original scope was?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, yeah, you you have to. So, and this is the hard part because you said it, you just nailed it, Kayla. It's like you have to have a very clear contract. And the more you, if you're freelance, the more you do it, the more you see things that pop up that you want to say, that includes this and this, but doesn't include this. Or, you know, like you can put what it doesn't include and what it does in the contract, but it's almost impossible to predict everything that's gonna happen and be asked of you in event. So write it down at the beginning, get it in writing, have it in the contract, have a transcript of a conversation, but also has to be a continual check-in. Like you, if something is asked of you that's not what you think is in your scope, write it down. Because when you have a conversation, you can bring all those up, like, hey, these are all the things that I wasn't expecting to do. I can I have the time to do maybe two of them, unless you want to pay me more or something like that. So it's like please document it. Even if it's a little task, hey, while you're in that document, can you update? Note how long it took you, just for your own sanity. So, yes.

SPEAKER_00

So when it comes to documenting things, and I know some people hate it, they're just like, it just is more work than it's worth. I just can go without it. What do you say to that person? What do you say, what do you say to that person in that situation?

SPEAKER_01

I'm not you and I are so similar, but we're very different in like the way that we would go about things. Like you document, write it down, list blah blah blah, most event people. Me, I talk to text into a voice note. You know, like it doesn't mean you have to sit with a notebook and physically write everything down. It doesn't mean that you need every bit of detail, but literally, if you can just get Whisperflow on your computer and just say, I just spent 20 minutes updating a document that I didn't know I was supposed to update, and just keep that all in a document. It could just be like word vomit, just throw everything in there. I mean, that's a great thing for an LLM to do. Like throw it into Claude and say, can you organize this for me? Anonymize it, don't put any proprietary info, obviously. But like, it doesn't have to be traditional documenting, you don't need a million forms, you don't need to submit something, it doesn't need to be in an air table or anything like that, but like keep a record of it, keep a transcript of a conversation, a voice note, whatever it is. I don't care if you don't like doing it, it's the only way to protect yourself. And you know that too. So may not be physically writing down a list, but you have to document it one way or another.

SPEAKER_00

I appreciate that because I just know everyone feels differently about documentation, but I do appreciate the different types of approach because you're right, I feel seen. I will have it very detail oriented in a document spreadsheet, whatever it is, but not everyone's like that, and not everyone feels comfortable with it, or they feel like it's just one more thing on the to-do list, but there are easier ways to do it, to your point. Like all these AI tools or LLMs, LLMs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry, I kind of love all of three tools. Like my daughter's saying the alphabet, nothing.

SPEAKER_00

Um, there are ways to do it that it makes it convenient that you don't have to do like a million different buttons edaggers.

SPEAKER_01

It's like you have to do it, so find the way that works for you. And because like writing or making a document, some people will that'll fall off. It won't be something that they continuously do. But everybody talks into their phone, text it to your sister. I knew that too. What did I say last week? And she'll send it back to me. Like whatever works for you. But if you if you really want to maintain boundaries, if you want to avoid burnout when you notice something like this, you have to start documenting it. Or before you sign a contract, you have to document it and be clear about it. And so many people are like, I don't need to do a contract, this email will stuff. It makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00

Totally agree. And with what we have just been discussing, it also sounds like a relationship like any other, right? A friendship, a colleague. You should have boundaries in place, but then one of the things that comes that's challenging is conflict, right? This can feel like conflict of scope creep. Like, how do I address this in a way that doesn't sound negative, it doesn't sound like I'm pushing back and I'm no longer looked at potentially as the miracle worker. What language, what like how do you how do you have this conversation while preserving the relationship?

SPEAKER_01

So this I love this question. This is where I my Jedi mind tricks, which sounds just yeah. So I mean, the most important thing is you should have a relationship where you feel comfortable expressing something like this. I'll say that at the beginning, but that doesn't always happen. I understand that. And if you are really afraid to look difficult or to disappoint someone or whatever, the best trick that I can tell you that I use all the time is when you are bringing something up, frame it as if you are protecting or contributing to their investment. So mm avoid blame. Avoid, I don't have time for this. Avoid the emotional reaction. There's your emotional intelligence. So, what do I mean? I want to make sure I'm delivering the quality that you're expecting. And I want to make sure I'm giving you everything that you need for this event. If we add blah blah blah on, this is how it will impact the timeline and the budget. So let's talk about priorities. If I do this, how do we preserve this for your event, for your product, to make you look good to your bosses? If you, because I mean it's not a lie, that's what you're doing. But if you take out your emotion and your personal investment and just give facts, this is why you write it down. This takes me such and such time, so long. This is gonna affect this budget. I can only do one of these two things. Let's talk about what's more important to you and your project. If you word it like that and avoid the blame game, it'll like it does some weird Jedi mind trick where they get out of defensive mode and they're like, okay, let's protect my project. Let's protect and make sure that you're giving me what I'm expecting of you as my employee, my freelancer, whatever. So it's like if you can reframe the problem as a potential solution or protecting their investment, you'll get a much, much different response. It has to be about alignment, it can't be the blame game. So, like using a lot of we. We need to be aligned. We need to understand and make the decision, blah blah blah. That's that is that's I mean, if you want me to go deeper, I'll say you have to understand the psychology of why scope creep happens, blah blah blah, but we don't have to do that. But the that is the main thing is make it collaborative. Make it like you're helping them. That's my Jedi mind trick of the day. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

SPEAKER_00

Always will come to your TED Talk. Um I love that because it's a and I was just thinking about this on a podcast, I think on one of my episodes of like alignment, although it sounds like such a corporate buzzword, it really is just making sure that you are on the same page and it's a win-win situation, not a me versus you. It should be that you're going into this. I think we forget that events are all about the attendee experience, but it's also about our experience creating them, and it's also about just reaching that overall goal that it is a collaborative movement, it's not just one side of the fence or the other. It can feel like that, I think, because as event professionals, it's hard to articulate everything we do, and it feels like oh, we're just the only ones taking on the brunt of it. But I genuinely think that leaders, stakeholders, whoever is investing and putting in this event, they also want it to be successful. They're just may not know how to articulate the changes that keep coming up or other things that maybe the dominoes falling on them and that now it's now falling on you. Like I think.

SPEAKER_01

Literally just said the keyword that I was gonna bring up when I talk about the psychology of why scope creep happens. The other thing that I want to say to everyone, if scope creep is happening, I'm so glad you just said that. You just teed me up perfectly. You make me look really smart here. But it's like don't assume malicious intent. Never assume malicious intent. Because I mean, sometimes people are assholes. We know that. Sometimes we work with people who need to have a different conversation, but until you know that for sure, do not assume malicious intent. So the dominoes that is one of the main reasons why Scope Creep happens to event professionals. It's because how many times have you been planning an event internally as a corporate event planner, me as a freelancer corporate, where you are reporting to someone who has never planned an event in their life, who has never attended the type of event that you're planning right now. Their priorities are marketing, our finance, are whatever the stakeholders, shareholders are. Like they don't understand. So when they look at you and say, the CEO is coming, we need to add the VIP. You like that throwback? We need to add the VIP dinner. They don't know that that means catering, money, contract, you have to adjust the space contract, you have to get the servers, you have to the bar license if you're in some states. Like they don't understand what they're asking of you. And that's on that's on us to explain. And that's where you say, okay, we want to look good in front of the CEO, right? Let me tell you what that's gonna take. If we want to do a CEO dinner, this is how much time I need, whatever, and this is how it's gonna impact the budget. Obviously, you're gonna need to take time before you respond, but like if you get that email, get them on a call and say, these are all the things that go into that. Do you want to continue doing this? Or do you want to try something a little less involved than a dinner, but that still feels very and you give them a different idea? Like if it's a gala, then you have the MC have a moment for them or something like that, you know. Like as an event professional, if we're dealing with non-event professionals, it's up to us to explain what those dominoes are. Like, what does that entail? And that I mean, instead of just saying yes or no and being the a-hole, you say yes, and this is what that would take, and then give them options. Sometimes when you explain to a non-event professional everything that goes into a certain piece of event, their response is oh shit, we can't do that. Like, or oh shit, I can't find that much money in the budget. Let's think of something else. It they don't know, and it's up to us to tell them.

SPEAKER_00

Number of times I'm like, it's gonna cost sixty thousand dollars if we do this, or like, never mind, let's go up to this option. And I'm like, Great. So I'm happy to do it, but we also just laying it out. And it one of the conversations actually we recently have had in like the strategic event leader cohort is like I have to just like explain to other people, but I was like, ah, it's actually a good thing. You're showing you're the expert in the room, it feels like, oh, they should know, but I don't know, I feel like a lot of event professionals are just firstborn children that have to like or middle or middle children that are just taking like have to take they have to take the reins or like to take the reins, and it's a good thing, it's actually even showing your expertise if you can just articulate it. But one of the other things that I think comes up is time. I don't have time to write it down, I don't have time to outline it or show that it's going to cost XYZ and think of another plan. Like I feel like I just have to do it. Like, what are your thoughts about telling another event professional of like, where do I find where do they find the time?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So my firm response is you make the time. Because if you don't make the time at the beginning to explain the consequences or to give different options or to lay out the steps, what are you gonna be doing when ship falls apart on site? Or when you spend so much time on this executive dinner, my this example that I keep doing, that something else falls off the radar. You're gonna be spending the amount of time you would have spent in the discussion phase in crunch time at the event, the day before the event, or after the event when you're trying to explain yourself. And it's like, yes, we're going a hundred miles a minute, we have 75 million things going on. It's not a matter of not having time. It's is the time gonna be now or is it gonna be when Chicago's blows up on site? Because yeah, we'll make it happen, and I bet you the attendee won't know what falls off the radar to make it happen, but your stakeholders will, your client will, the sponsor that got screwed over, or someone else. Like you're either gonna be explaining it at crunch time or you're gonna find the time to explain it at the beginning. Or everything goes off without a hitch, but you and your team are completely burnt out. You worked hours and hours that you didn't get paid for, and you now have resentment for that client. They may have resentment for you because they feel what you're emitting, so it's like there's the hidden cost of that too. It's like, sure, you could just do it and make it all happen, but what are you giving up for that to be the hero? You can be the hero and not want to curl into a ball and die after every event, like most of us did at the beginning of our career. Like, there's a way to doing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, some people are still doing, which I'm like, I want to hit on these notes because I want I want more people to feel like they can love the event industry and have a sustainable career in life and do both. And I think it's hard to it, it's hard to like undo and untangle those webs for some people. So I'm like, ah, this is where it's true.

SPEAKER_01

And you hit on something else that you were talking about with your cohort that's super important too, is like we love being in control, being the go-to people, we love having all the answers and being the one everyone turns to, and then in the next end of that sentence, no one understands what we offer, no one understands why our events are important. It's like take the reins, do those things, but it's your responsibility to show the ROI. If you start showing the 10 steps that go into every single thing that's happening, if you show, hey, this would have cost $60,000, how about we do this? That's only gonna cost $15 and won't push our timeline down. Guess what? That's tangible ROI. That's money that you're saving, that's whatever it is, you're proving why event professionals are magicians. People will respect the work that you do and your like control freakness if they see what you are actually controlling. So, like can't have the best of both worlds. You can't keep all the information in your head and then get mad when people don't know what you do, right?

SPEAKER_00

It's like the number one thing about like when people are like or even in relationships, we're like, I can't read your mind and you're not blowing up on me on all these things. It's like all of you had just told me I would have been able to react differently or approach it differently. And I think the other side of the coin is it's okay to let the secrets out. You don't have to hoard the secrets about like how the cake gets made.

SPEAKER_01

Let the people know how to want to make the cake, they're still gonna let you make the cake, but they'll appreciate how good it tastes if they see the 16 pages of directions that you had to follow to do it, right? Like, no one wants to do our job. They're not gonna take it from you. I promise.

SPEAKER_00

But it's like the cool okay, you know what? This is like last episode we were making all these new businesses. I'm like, this is like where there needs to be either more TV shows, like Gordon Ramsay, I will say, because we're addicted in this house to like um next level chef, uh master uh what is it called? Um's kitchen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh health, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All of the other all of the other ones. Um and we genuinely want to see how they do all the things. Are we gonna step in and start cooking behind the line? Absolutely not. But have I picked up a couple things of like I don't know what they are at the moment, but have I picked up a couple things of like what I can bring to the kitchen?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, yeah. That's a perfect analogy.

SPEAKER_00

Perfect. I I'm not gonna go start making all the food, but I know now like you need to clean the shrimp because you're not gonna serve it that way, or like a little bit, enough to make me dangerous of like respecting all of the work that goes into what they do, how much time it takes to prepare, the level of dedication that they have, how it's not overnight, like how they're always challenging themselves. I'm impressed and I am more respectful of anything. So now I'm like, where's the event planning show? And did you just accidentally pitch an event planner reality show? Because that is genius. I'd watch. But if anything, it helps me have more understanding for what people do. Why don't we share that with other people so that they also can perhaps, even if they don't, that's not about them. It's really about us showing and teaching and then being able to just articulate what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Because we're control freaks and we don't have time, which I know we don't. You and I know time is a hot commodity, but it's like you're gonna you're gonna make the time either now or when it's least convenient.

SPEAKER_00

You're absolutely right, and you touched on so many things, but we're gonna go into the hidden costs. What other hidden costs are we missing by letting the scope? I won't say letting because it sounds negative, but what are the hidden costs that we're that are developing behind the scenes when scope creep is happening?

SPEAKER_01

And you can say letting it, because sometimes we set the precedent and then we're too afraid to break it. So you can say letting. It's okay to admit our faults.

SPEAKER_00

We are flu episode.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I don't told you I'm in my Dululu phase right now. I'm just overly confident. No. So let's talk about hidden fees. So I mentioned some of them, but we can talk about them more specifically. So, like, there's the most obvious one, there's the unpaid hours. If you're a contractor or freelancer and you're doing this little thing, this little thing, this little thing that's not in your scope, if you're scheduled to work on retainer 20 hours a month, and you end up working 36, that's unpaid labor. So that's the biggest one. The non-monetary ones are a little trickier to quantify, but the resentment. How many times have you and I been in a job or working a position where scope creep has come up, and it's like you're so incredibly frustrated that they keep asking you to do things that aren't your job. But you do them with a smile on your face, but like other things fall through the clack crack, like your family, your husband, your friends, whatever it is, or another part of your job, resentment always becomes a part of it because you're not being honest with yourself or with them, and self-respect is imperative to avoiding burnout. So there's that, okay. Burnout, that's the obvious one. You get to a point where you literally can't do it anymore because you're doing so much, you can't do it anymore. Um, if you're on a corporate team, what about your team morale? If you're a leader and you keep saying yes to changes or things coming down the pike from a different department who doesn't understand events and it if it rolls downhill, that's for your mom. But like rolls downhill to your team, your team morale is gonna tank. Right? Like that is a big one too. Scope Creek will kill that. And then I think probably the last one would be if that's what you're making yourself available as or presenting yourself as. If you're a freelancer, you're just gonna keep getting clients like that, and you're just gonna keep getting in situations like that. And if you don't understand why it's happening, how to name it, and how to fix it, you're just gonna keep repeating the cycle. And those, I think, those would be the most important ones. I can't think of any more off the top of my head, but those are definitely the hidden and not so hidden costs.

SPEAKER_00

Well, those are big, like you're hitting, we're hitting the wallet, we're hitting our hearts, our like mental load and psyche. And I mean at that point, that's when now we're into burnout. We're like, you know what? I want a desk job, and I just need to do like be a secretary because not the secretary is it hard to work. It's just you clock in, you clock out, I don't have to deal with any of this nonsense.

SPEAKER_01

But then you're like today at Starbucks, he was like, I should just work at a Starbucks, just make the coffee. I just want to go through the checklist and my shift and be done. I mean, you know the work he does, he's he works with sick kiddo, so I understand his stresses a lot, but it's like sometimes you get to that point where you just can't do it anymore, and you're like, you know what? Used to love this work, but now I don't. And that makes me sad because losing the passion for this is how we keep losing good people to in the industry. I hate that.

SPEAKER_00

No, totally agree. And I mean, and if look, if it's not your passion anymore, that's totally fine. But if you're just like, I'm just quitting because I'm done with this and it's just never gonna change, I'm like, there are maybe there might be ways to change it in certain situations in certain companies, but all of that, I digress. Yeah, so for the person who doesn't feel like confident in this situation, they're like, Okay, I hear you, Gabby. You're like, I will make the time, I will write it down, but now I have to actually have the conversation with someone.

SPEAKER_01

I'll use this as an emotional moment or like vulnerable moment because I think it's the most valuable thing that comes from a conversation and scope creep is like everyone listening to this, or anybody who feels any of those three types of scope creep, like you are allowed to value your time. You are allowed to set healthy boundaries and hold them. It doesn't make you difficult, it makes you professional. And it is never a bad idea to have self-respect. Like, scope creep happens usually because the person asking for more and more and more has this fear of their events not gonna live up to expectation, they're they're afraid that something is gonna be missing on day of. Their fear is not your problem to fix with unpaid time labor and emotional stress. Like, you are allowed. And if you're one of those people, if you're me and Kayla and you started your career saying yes to everything, and you got to a point where you can't do it anymore, it's okay that you set that precedent. Like you have to own that you did it, but you're allowed to change your mind, and you're allowed to change your boundaries. Like after the fact, if you get to a point where you're like, I can't do this anymore, you're allowed to say that. Even if it's not where you started the conversation. And I need people to hear that. You are allowed to value your time. It is not your responsibility to give your resources to quellch someone else's fear. It's not. And I'll stop.

SPEAKER_00

Soapbox. My job. It's a great, my it's a great soapbox to be on. Um, because I think that people get fearful, right? Like, I already said it from the beginning. I now look back on it and now I see things have changed, and now I don't want a disruptive relationship or frustrate someone else because now I may be double backing on that, but it's now grown from 10 hours to now it's 50, and now it feels unmanageable. So I I mean it may just go to the event environments that we're all a part of sometimes, um, that perhaps need to be fixed going forward from some dysregulated. But these conversations are how you fix it, right? Yeah, yeah. But not being afraid to have the conversation, just approaching it and just with the language that Gabby already gave us and really setting us up for success.

SPEAKER_01

I don't want to make it sound like it's easy. I don't want to say just have the conversation, right? Like it's difficult and it's uncomfortable and it sucks when you have to have those conversations, but it is the best thing you can do for yourself and your team. Hands down. If you can just get through that awkward conversation, it's gonna prevent a lot of awkward uncomfortableness when stuff falls apart. Same thing as the time.

SPEAKER_00

And their reaction is not a sign of you. It's totally up to them. You can approach it the best way possible, but if someone else is going to have perhaps a negative reaction to it, then that is not for you to take on. It's just for you to navigate through with openness and a conversation, uh stuff it down and pretend like it didn't happen and just keep moving on.

SPEAKER_01

You're responsible and you can control your reaction and how you present yourself. You can't control someone's perception of you or how they respond. You can only manage yourself, which is very hard for us event professionals, because we want to manage everyone's emotion around us. Our attendees, the people we work with, but it's like that's not your responsibility. It's the best way to say it. You can't take that on physically.

SPEAKER_00

Any other thoughts that maybe maybe I missed?

SPEAKER_01

No, I just I just hope people feel empowered to speak up. It doesn't have to be confrontational, but like if you see this happening, say something. If you're getting creeped on, say something.

SPEAKER_00

Um, last time we spoke, we also talked about all things that we do in our spare time. Have you been running?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, not as much as I want, but I have been moving my body, which is a big thing because I wasn't doing that at all. So now that is in my routine. My son is now at school five days a week, so I have typically have five days to be a human and I have been self-caring. I've been reading again, I've been moving my body in the basement or walking with the dogs. They're very happy about it too. But running, I haven't gotten there yet, but I have to work my way up to that before I can get to that again.

SPEAKER_00

Look, as I said last time, I'm not a runner, so in no way am I shaming you or like kilting you for it. Just a little accountability so that we take care of ourselves as much as we're taking care of other people.

SPEAKER_01

I needed it. I exercised today, which was good, so I'm moving at least.

SPEAKER_00

Good, good, good. Okay, and last song, last song, wow, related to the question I'm about to ask. Thoughts on what your walk-up song would be for a either chin wag conversation or your speaker, like you're gonna be a speaker on stage.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, well, I am a nerd, so I have to choose a BTS song because that's just the way I operate. So I think on their new song they have a called two a song called 2.0 on their new album. And it's just about feeling brand new and reinventing yourself and refining your confidence and like owning where you are right now, and to bring it full circle. On the last episode, you asked me what makes me feel worthy, and that was kind of what my answer was. It's like owning who I am right now and being proud of it and doing what makes me happy. So the 2-0, the 2.0, the reinvention of myself. That's the song that would come up. I don't think we could do that for Chin Wang, because I'm I'm pretty sure Marissa's not a big DS fan. But if I'm going up speaking, that would be it. It's called 2.0.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I'm gonna listen to after this episode. And actually, one thing we didn't do last episode, we're gonna do this time, is if there's one question you can ask event professionals about anything, and they can respond back to you, and we'll post it on LinkedIn, on Instagram, and all the other medias. Um, what question would you ask?

SPEAKER_01

Can we make it about scope creep? So, like, did we name their hesitations or like if they feel their scope getting creeped on, why what prevents them from having the appropriate boundary setting conversations? Is it fear? Is it time? Is it what is it? Is it one we didn't mention? I wanna know why are people hesitant? Because we are notoriously bad at this. I'm including myself in that, but we are notoriously bad at stopping scope creep. So, like, what prevents them from having the conversation?

SPEAKER_00

I want to know. Okay, perfect. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm gonna post it. We're gonna get answers. Let's have continue this conversation with the rest of the event professional world. But thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's always a pleasure talking to you.

SPEAKER_01

I know. I love when we get to chat like this and help other people. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00

I thought I was like, I know, I'm the best, I'm great, and you're welcome for being on the podcast. You should own it! That's what I heard, but no, I really appreciate it. I do think it'll help and give someone some value, allow them to feel worthy in this scope or this part of their career. Um, but we're gonna sign off now. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Uh always, always, always. Yeah.